As many of you know, I’m a proud Delawarian. There’s nothing I enjoy more than watching our local businesses thrive. When a business’s core mission is helping other Delawarians thrive, well, I’m sold.
In this episode of Outside Insights, I sit down with Desa Burton, Executive Director of Zip Code Wilmington, a nonprofit coding bootcamp. Zip Code Wilmington provides adults with intensive software developer training, with no college degree requirements. In turn, the program helps build tech talent pipelines for employers in the Wilmington region.
Many Zip Code students see dramatic boosts in their income after completing the program. This lifts up individuals and families while also benefiting the Wilmington community.
During our chat, Desa shared her own career journey, from graduating the US Naval Academy and serving as a Surface Warfare Officer, to earning a law degree and working in intellectual property, and eventually, leading Zip Code Wilmington.
Of course, I had to dig into Desa’s leadership philosophies. She discussed the importance of empowering her team to help them grow, which she links back to lessons learned from mentors in the military.
Other key topics we discuss in this episode of Outside Insights include; taking care of yourself to avoid burnout, overcoming inertia to embrace change, and continually developing new skills.
If you’re a burgeoning entrepreneur with an idea, someone interested in learning new skills, or you just want to learn more about businesses doing good in Delaware communities, this episode is for you.
Reply and let me know what topics you’d like to hear next on the podcast!
Until next time, friends.
Chris
Zip Code Wilmington:
Books mentioned:
As many of you know, I’m a proud Delawarian. There’s nothing I enjoy more than watching our local businesses thrive. When a business’s core mission is helping other Delawarians thrive, well, I’m sold.
In this episode of Outside Insights, I sit down with Desa Burton, Executive Director of Zip Code Wilmington, a nonprofit coding bootcamp. Zip Code Wilmington provides adults with intensive software developer training, with no college degree requirements. In turn, the program helps build tech talent pipelines for employers in the Wilmington region.
Many Zip Code students see dramatic boosts in their income after completing the program. This lifts up individuals and families while also benefiting the Wilmington community.
During our chat, Desa shared her own career journey, from graduating the US Naval Academy and serving as a Surface Warfare Officer, to earning a law degree and working in intellectual property, and eventually, leading Zip Code Wilmington.
Of course, I had to dig into Desa’s leadership philosophies. She discussed the importance of empowering her team to help them grow, which she links back to lessons learned from mentors in the military.
Other key topics we discuss in this episode of Outside Insights include; taking care of yourself to avoid burnout, overcoming inertia to embrace change, and continually developing new skills.
If you’re a burgeoning entrepreneur with an idea, someone interested in learning new skills, or you just want to learn more about businesses doing good in Delaware communities, this episode is for you.
Reply and let me know what topics you’d like to hear next on the podcast!
Until next time, friends.
Chris
Zip Code Wilmington:
Books mentioned:
That music was brought to you and played by Steve Miller, my brother in law and produced by Laney Miller, my niece. Well, welcome to another episode of the Outside Insights podcast where we engage individuals who are making a difference. I'm your host, Chris Burkhard. And today we're thrilled to have Desa Burton, Executive Director of Zip Code Wilmington as our guest. She's a former US Naval Academy graduate, a Surface Warfare Officer, I can't wait to find out what that is to a civilian thesis journey has taken her through diverse roles from the Navy to earning an MBA, JD. And she served as Assistant General Counsel of intellectual property at Inner Digital Incorporated showcasing record showcasing your expertise in innovation. recently honored as the 2023 Delaware Business time CEO of the Year in the not for profit category. Thesis leadership at Zip Code Wilmington is transforming education and technology. And in this episode, I can't wait to talk to Desa and find out her unique experiences and perspective about all this. Desa, welcome to the show.
Desa Burton:Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate being here.
Chris Burkhard:It's great to have you. Now this is video and
Desa Burton:Well, you know, I saw that flag and I just thought some people will watch this on YouTube, so I'm going to it really speaks to what we do with Zip Code. It really speaks demonstrate Desa's you know, adaptability. We did meet pre show to get to know one another. So it looks like we've talked to service to family, community, country, which is something that before, but there's this amazing flag hanging behind me about doing good recklessly. Desa, what is that? Tell us more. I am proud and humbled to have been able to accomplish in my life. So when I thought of you, I thought of that flag, I thought of the things that you're doing for others and I wanted to share that with you.
Chris Burkhard:And I appreciate that. And I was thinking, I may have said this in our long lunch, but every day I write down, "Am I being the person I want to be right now?" Was that the reason for the gift or was it just because of everything we're both trying to do in the world?
Desa Burton:Everything we're both trying to do in the world. Something just spoke to me when we were having our lunch and it said that you Chris had to have that flag.
Chris Burkhard:Well, and it's got a place to honor I could tell you that. I think there's more to this than this but what is Zip Code Wilmington? Bring it to life a little bit. What problem are you solving? What's the impact of the mission?
Desa Burton:Sure. So Zip Code Wilmington is a nonprofit software coding bootcamp. We help adults average age thirty, get into good paying careers as software developers. Our mission is to help build the economy of our region by providing quality software programming training to talented individuals who have the potential to become software developers and data engineers. And by doing that, we're helping them increase the amount of wages that they're earning. And by doing that, we're helping to increase the amount of taxes and support for our infrastructure that goes right back into our communities. So for example, the average salary increase of a zip coder, after they receive our training and are placed in a great paying job is about fifty thousand. So if you were making thirty thousand dollars before, average salaries, eighty thousand dollars coming out of Zip Code. That increased wage means you're gonna be paying more taxes. But those taxes go to help build hospitals, libraries, you're spending money in the grocery store, your kids are enrolled in the schools, so it helps you and helps your family and it helps the community.
Chris Burkhard:It's a cycle.
Desa Burton:It is.
Chris Burkhard:I heard the coder might be thrity, but who's the typical coder? What's the profile of the individual that gets this opportunity?
Desa Burton:So the typical profile for someone who may just have a high school diploma or minimum requirements, a high school diploma being over eighteen years old. So sometimes we get folks who have been in jobs, maybe they have two or three jobs that they're stringing together trying to make the rent, trying to live. And they realize it's just not sustainable over time and they want more for themselves and their family. So they think a four year degree too long, maybe two year degrees too expensive. They have to find something in the short term to get them to that next level. And they're whip smart use that term really, or whip smart, they can figure things out. And this is an opportunity for them to learn a new skill and get into a stable, steady career. But we also have half the folks that come to us that already have degrees. And they think to themselves, I'm already paying student loans. I got this degree thinking, this is what I was going to do but now it's a dead end, or I'm not excited about it. You know, what else can I do? And so this is a way for them to capitalize on the experience and the education they have and transition that into a tech career because you can use that marketing experience in tech. You can use that HR experience in tech, you can be a pharmacist. We've had people who are pharmacists, who were doctors who have gotten into this, you can use that in tech.
Chris Burkhard:It makes total sense to me. I mean, careers are much more of a lattice today. How many of us truly know what we want to do forever? How many of us reach a new spot where we decide we want to be something different? The curriculum, the coding, the type of coding they're learning, is that driven by a connection to area businesses and what they need? That must be constantly fluid and changing based on the needs of business?
Desa Burton:Absolutely, in fact, zip code was founded based on the support employers needed in order to keep Wilmington growing and strong. So the tech companies that were here and in around 2014, were looking at a lack of tech talent and the business folks that were here didn't want to leave the city, but they they had to get a pipeline. So the reason Zip Code was founded is to provide that support to them and then building the curriculum. The first question was, what does an entry level software developer need to know in order to get hired by you, and placed in a position where they can grow and thrive? And from there, we backed it up to create that curriculum. And every year we meet with the corporate partners that are our founding employers and ask them that question, what what do we need to change? What's great? What do we need to pull back on? You know, in the age of chat, GBT and AI what does that mean? What we use for ZIP code, we will continue to change what it is that we're doing here, based on the feedback we're getting real time from employers.
Chris Burkhard:Desa, through our not for profit, Placers Cares we were asked the question many times, were asking presidents what they needed from the workforce to show up. And it always came back to a very general state of, you know, soft skills, how they show up, you know, attendance. And I'm intentionally being kind of brief, because it was never very specific. But there was always this trend that folks aren't showing up the right way. Does your program focus at all on those soft skills? Just curious more than anything else.
Desa Burton:Absolutely, we do. In fact, our Director of Admissions and Professional development, Dan Stabb, has spent twenty years in the world of improv, he was a theater major. So we use improv in our professional development series in order to teach people how to do active listening. So it's fun while you're learning it, but you learn how to react in a professional setting. We have mentorship and fun things that we put in place to help people learn timeliness, being punctual, learning new communication skills that will be helpful to them in a working environment. Because we want them not just to get the job but to thrive to move on, right, because when they move on and up, then they come back to Zip Code and hire Zip Coders.
Chris Burkhard:That sounds almost gamified and fun. I want to do it quite honestly. I can imagine that you're constantly asked about the return return on investment. I'm not sure what the right words are. But I get a sense that this model was creating a return in the community. Would you share your thoughts on that?
Desa Burton:Sure. So ZIP Code was launched with $1.5 million that was collected between government private philanthropic sources. And over the last eight years, we have helped to increase wages by over one hundred forty million and that's just a conservative estimate. So you think about the return on investment there. There's very few that can rival that number. And that's why I think it's such a darling of the area to to know that people are not just getting training, but they're getting training with a focus of getting into a job and being successful in that work.
Chris Burkhard:Okay, so is the sky the limit, then if there's that kind of return? Or is there a natural limiter to being able to deliver the program with quality and the way you want to run it?
Desa Burton:There are always limits.
Chris Burkhard:Yeah, there always are. I found time to be the biggest limiter.
Desa Burton:Well, for us the challenge is that as much as we want to train people, we only bring in as many people as we believe we can get hired. So we have to have the employer base, as well as the candidates that are interested in doing this training. So building both at the same time and making sure they're equal is always a challenge, then of course, there's always changes in careers. So for example, we started Zip Code with our software developer program. And within about three years, our employers came to us and said, we need data engineers yesterday, can you put together curriculum for that? So we were able to put together from their suggestion to launching a program. It took nine months, we were able to figure out what was needed in the curriculum, get it launched in nine months and then get it out to the community and have people take that program. So the next limiter is obviously awareness. People knowing about the program, people knowing about data engineering, people knowing about software development, people taking that chance of if you've never seen it before, knowing that you can do it. So there's that awareness limitation as well.
Chris Burkhard:What's my hope that 51,373 People will listen to this. How about that and create more awareness with it. Now, the nine month timeline sounds really impressive to me. In the speed of business today, was it impressive to them? I would think it would be.
Desa Burton:Yes. It takes about two to four years for a typical university or community college to get a curriculum approved through regulations, a bootcamp can move much faster. So we were able to do that nine months.
Chris Burkhard:I have a real short term question. I talk a lot that I think tech is coming off what I've had fun calling kind of a sugar high, right? The hiring post pandemic is a little bit softer than it was. Is that impacting grads? And what can we all do to help around that?
Desa Burton:Yes. We are coming up as a nice way of putting it, we are coming off a sugar high in the industry. So it slowed hiring. I would say that typically, I would say 2020/2021 to 2022, we saw as people came out of COVID, cohorts were hired one hundred percent in six weeks. We're talking like twenty five to thirty people at a time, just six weeks, just burning through right? Now it takes about two to three times that length of time to get that accomplished. People are still getting hired. But I think what folks that are in the industry, well people looking to get in the industry need to know is one you got to be patient. These things typically take time. So we just came off with, like you said a sugar high and now it's back to reality. So it takes a little longer and you also have to be ready to commit to doing the work. You really do in order to stand out above other people that are applying for those jobs. Some employers are receiving two thousand applications per resume. Sorry, two thousand applications per job req. So in order to compete with all of those folks, you need to have the right skills, put the time into putting together a great resume. Being able to answer the questions and being ready for things and not slipping from little things like not having the proper voicemail.
Chris Burkhard:You mean I can't use my juicy email address. I've got to have maybe one that's more professional, things like that?
Desa Burton:Yes, that's right.
Chris Burkhard:I understand. I might have been hanging around hiring for the last fifty two years and seeing a little bit of that. You know, I do think, I would assume that today's folks that are going through the program, understand that they're responsible for managing their own career. And you're speaking the truth that you not only have to have the skills that you're building in that program, or that you might have brought into that program from education and life experiences. But you've got to manage your own career. It's very different than it was. Companies can't play the parental role anymore. They don't want to, so your skill development in the way you navigate is really on you and the mentors that will help you.
Desa Burton:That's right. And it's doable. This is doable. You know, it's building that professional reputation in writing and building it in person. And I think most people enjoy doing that.
Chris Burkhard:I agree with you. So this is a fun one, do you have a favorite story that highlights the work of the organization? You know, any you can say names or not depending on your preference, but go for it.
Desa Burton:All right. I have so many every cohort to a person, I have a new story. So two that I'll tell you about very quickly. One was a young man who graduated from high school with a desire to do computer science. He and his friends were always doing coding and gaming. But he couldn't afford to go to college and his friends did. So he watched what they were doing in college while he was working in fast food places and just thought that the opportunity was never going to be there for him. So just to give you an idea about this young man, so he's working a minimum wage job at a fast food facility. And he noticed that on each shift they would open a new bag of bread and old bags of bread wouldn't be finished, so bread was going to waste. He created a system with stickers so that the shifts would not waste bread, when you got to imagine this is someone who was putting together two jobs in order to make a living. And at home, he didn't want to waste food so at work he didn't want to waste food. This wasn't putting any extra money in his pocket, he just didn't like seeing it so he came up with a very elegant way of managing it. When he applied to Zip Code, absolutely brilliant, so he got in very easily. He was at the top of the class the entire time, and was hired by one of the biggest banks in the world and is making, to His words, he's making about ten times more money than anyone is family ever made.
Chris Burkhard:He's making more bread now, Desa. If I get away with that bad joke. But you know, hearing that young man's story, I don't know an employer today that doesn't want someone to critically think, be an asset like that. That's a very welcomed behavior, and you know, fast food or big bank. That's the behaviors that we all want from employees today. That's a great story.
Desa Burton:There's one other thing I'd love to tell you, if I could, sorry to interrupt.
Chris Burkhard:Of course you can, go.
Desa Burton:So the other story is a young lady who was in Puerto Rico and after Hurricane Maria, she became the sole breadwinner for a family of five. She's a Kmart cashier. She was riding her bike thrity minutes each way to work. So she had never spent a night away from home until she came here to do Zip Code. And I'll just fast forward and tell you that she was really great in the cohort, she learned a lot and she started off with one of the banks here and is now a senior developer. So she was able to earn money, send it back home to her family until they were back on their feet. And she's doing great on her own.
Chris Burkhard:Well, you know, it's quite obvious. I mean, you have a emotion in your voice Desa. I know you know that, it's very obvious that your work impacts you because you see the impact on your client.
Desa Burton:I do.
Chris Burkhard:I always try to think I'm funny, but how does a Naval Surface Warfare Officer run a not for profit? Tell a bit of your story if you don't mind?
Desa Burton:Oh my gosh, I think that not for profit runs me.
Chris Burkhard:Well, yes. A good servant leader will say that. That is for sure.
Desa Burton:Yes. So the road of getting here is a little twisted. I graduated from the Naval Academy and became a Surface Warfare Officer. I served for ten years in the Navy and Naval Reserve, before finding that my bliss in life is actually intellectual property. So I went on to law school, and I did litigation and transactions for the past twenty years. I teach intellectual property at University of Pennsylvania Law School where I received my JD many years ago.
Chris Burkhard:Well, there you go. And how'd you get to Zip Code Wilmington, did it find you?
Desa Burton:It sort of did. I was serving on the board of Liberty USO and Liberty was my current employer at the time Interdigital wanted to come together and create a program to help active duty service members transition from the military into a STEM career. We were introduced to a place called Zip Code Wilmington, which was actually right around the corner from where I worked. I had never heard of it. I walked in and fell in love with it immediately. I saw the pictures of the people, the cohorts.
Chris Burkhard:I see them behind you too.
Desa Burton:And they reminded me so much of the military because it was such a diverse environment and that's just not something you typically find in tech. So I wanted to find out more about what it was you're doing. We partnered with them. We had military spouses, veterans, and National Guardsmen coming through the program. So I had an opportunity to be around ZIP Code quite a bit before the executive director said she was going to be moving on and wanted to know if I wanted to throw my hat in the ring to leave the organization. I have nothing but great things to say about it. I think this is the best gig in town. I've been such a super fan of Zip Code since the first day that I came to know it.
Chris Burkhard:Well, it's good to have you as a superfan on the side of Zip Code, that's for sure. So, CEO of the year. Talk a bit about your approach to leadership and your style. I know it's hard to brag, but try.
Desa Burton:I'm not gonna brag. So the only thing I'm gonna brag about is my team.
Chris Burkhard:That's how you got to be CEO of the Year. Like I said, no dummy. There you go.
Desa Burton:I really do love Zip Code. I love the team that's here. I love the people that come to Zip Code. I love the employers that hire Zip Coders. So my style of leadership, which develops, I thought developed as a result of the work I did the military but I see now it really just has been me all along. When I started the military on board destroyer, my senior chief, sorry, my chief petty officer was just an amazing gentleman who had so many years of experience in the military, and I would have been a fool not to listen to his advice as we moved along the way. Obviously, I had to make the decisions, including all the hard calls but I feel like I had a trusted agent at my side to help me in that process. And what I learned from that is if you get out of the way of your team, your team will perform. People don't come to work to do a bad job. They want to do a great job. And as long as they have the right support, mentorship and training, they will do a great job.
Chris Burkhard:I think they need a trusted environment though to do it.
Desa Burton:Yes, they do. They do have to be because if you're constantly worried about whether you're going to get fired, or someone's looking over your shoulder, then you don't perform as well. So, I like my team to know I'm here to support them and help them grow. I want them to move on and do bigger and better things beyond what they imagine or what even I could imagine. Because if they do that, then that supports all of us. A rising tide raises all ships.
Chris Burkhard:Desa, my mentor often said one of his challenges with the world is we hire really smart people and then indirectly we say sit down, shut up and do it my way. Right. You know, maybe not intentional, which doesn't make it right but it actually makes it worse when it's an unintentional cultural consequence. So, I like that. I like to ask each guest to share a lesson, something they'd like to share. I'm kind of anxious to hear yours.
Desa Burton:So the thing I tell Zip Coders, the thing I tell my staff, the thing I remind myself of every day is that communication goes both ways. It's not just about what I say, it's about what the other person hears. That can be verbal, written, nonverbal, but it's definitely something to always keep in mind. I've learned this early on in my career when someone reminded me that I may not understand how I appear or how my presence affects other people. So if I come in and say something a certain way, what people have heard is not just the words that I've said, but the way I've said it and the presence that I've given it. So we always have to consider that in providing any kind of communication. Not just to go in, and this is helpful for ZIP Coders when they go into an interview. If you go into an interview and your entire focus is all about you, you've completely missed the point of the interview. The interview is that team trying to hire someone to help them. And if you're walking in giving your demands and things that you want, you're the last person they want on their team, you become more of a headache. What they want to hear is that somewhat like they're the center of the universe but really, that's someone who's considerate, and has empathy for what they're looking for and that you're willing to contribute to that and work hard towards achieving that. That's a person who wants to be a part of a team, as opposed to someone that just wants a job.
Chris Burkhard:I think that you just put a definition to emotional intelligence and how critical that competency is to joining a team or interacting with a group full of people. And even if you have it, it's great counsel to think through. I think sometimes, even if you think you're a good communicator, we may count on our strengths, we may overuse the things that are best. And I've noticed that you've, if you haven't noticed audience, she's talked about active listening a couple times. As the host, it makes me shoosh and listen, which I liked, which is kind of fun to know like, she's talking to me too, you know. That's kind of the fun part. I've just asked you thirty two questions. What else would you like to share? I've got more, but I thought I'd pause there and let you do your thing.
Desa Burton:Now, I'm at a loss.
Chris Burkhard:I did not mean to do that.
Desa Burton:Chris, I would say though, as much as you're giving me all these compliments, I think you do a lot of these things yourself with Placers. I did notice that you are now on the top Fortune 5000, right?
Chris Burkhard:Inc 5000, as long as you say something, right?
Desa Burton:For eighty percent growth?
Chris Burkhard:Yes.
Desa Burton:Chris, you're doing a lot of things, right. So as much as you're giving me these compliments, I just want to say right back at you. I mean, you're doing great things at Placers.
Chris Burkhard:You're very kind. I made the decision to try to help more people. So you grow eighty percent and we were blessed to do it eight years in a row. But I will tell you the most painful lesson, because I think vulnerability is the most interesting thing, in my pursuit to help more people, what got us there won't work anymore. And I know you go through it too. Anybody that wants to be a leader that's listening, because you can be the greatest five person company, then all of a sudden, you're ten and you're not so great and then fifeen. It's not just headcount or people, but just as you grow in general and customers or offices or products, it really doesn't matter. The ability to manage the complexity and still deliver on your promise and take good care of people and have a good culture. That's what I think probably keeps me up at night Desa, is that it was way easier when we were three people you know, and it's much harder today. But there's a lesson in that for all of us that it has to be a mission worth completing and you have to stick with it. Let's see, do you have favorite books? Books you recommend, books you gift?
Desa Burton:Well, for some reason, I haven't quite put my finger on it, I really resonate with A Whole New Mind from Daniel Pink. And it's a book that's really about using both sides of your brain. And even if you're less linear and more artistic that you can apply that and that's where the future lies is having people who are very creative applying themselves in very unique ways. But there's something about the way it's written that just makes my brain sparkle. I have to stop reading every other paragraph and write something down about something I want to do or a suggestion comes to my mind. There's just some kind of brain food in that book that I just really love.
Chris Burkhard:So I need to give Daniel Pink another shot because I think of him as more sales oriented early in his career. There's an interesting book called The War of Art that's all about the creative side of things to that reminds me of this, but A Whole New Mind. That's absolutely something interesting. All right, any other ones that you like?
Desa Burton:Anything written by Malcolm Gladwell.
Chris Burkhard:Oh, we share that in common. Do you have a favorite?
Desa Burton:No. Tipping Point, Outliers, any of it you know. Just any, even if it's just his podcast, an article, an interview that he's done. Anything that he said or written I just find absolutely fascinating.
Chris Burkhard:So Desa, I don't know if you consider yourself a success. Humble people typically don't because it's the journey. It's like it's never done. But it sounds like you work awful hard. How do you take care of you? I want people to see leadership as flawed and human as much as we can. But how do you take care of you?
Desa Burton:Well, that's an interesting question because I don't think I could have properly answered it until recent years. But the way I take care of me is by listening to what my body really enjoys doing and just doing those things. So in the past, I used to beat myself up and say, Well, I'm supposed to go on vacations and sit on a beach, and I'm supposed to, you know, do whatever everybody else says you're supposed to do. And when I tried those things, I had no relief. It didn't help me. It didn't make me feel better, it made me feel worse. So now I just listen. Meditation is I don't know why, but it works. Meditation works, really being in touch with what makes you excited, what makes you relaxed, comfortable, jazzed. So I garden, I read magazines. I like reading authors that I really enjoy that that, you know, like I said, give my mind that, that food for thought that sparkle. And I like to just talk with my friends or with my family. My mom is a hoot. I've also gone out too because most of my enjoyable things are work. I even took a class in stand up
Chris Burkhard:We'll have to have you back and your alter ego comedy. since we're not allowed to talk about it today, perhaps but, you know, so what I hear in all of that, what I hear you talking about is that you found a way to recharge, or to find interests outside of the work, which I think is so important. And, you know, I think until recently we weren't allowed to talk about it. Right? You know, but I feel like it's really important. I think enough people think they're supposed to just take it, they're just supposed to work more you just work through it. And I'm kind of on the warpath, if you will allow that. No, you can't pour from an empty cup and I think leaders have to lead the way on so many fronts is just another one.
Desa Burton:And Chris, you know, when I don't have a chance to recharge, I'm crabby. And then I bring that crabbiness to work and that's not fair to everybody around me, so I have to put it down. Got to put it down in order to you know, save my team. You've got to put it down.
Chris Burkhard:So where is Zip Code Wilmington headed?
Desa Burton:Zip Code Wilmington is located in Downtown Wilmington. We're in the Nemours building, which is right next to the Hotel du Pont and Deco so we're right in the center of downtown. We are here purposefully because we want to be accessible to as many people as possible. If you don't have a car, you can get on a bus. If you need cheap eats, there's lots of restaurants. We want to make sure we have all the things that our students need. And by being downtown is more of an opportunity to just bump into people or just be on people's minds, especially as they're transitioning from one role that they may already be in and thinking about what they want to do next so they can see that we're here.
Chris Burkhard:Desa, one of the things we discovered at Placers is that the first three weeks is really hard, someone gets a job. They don't have their paycheck yet and the've got to get to work. So it's something that we try and think about because you've got to have those things right for the job to go right. And it's just an interesting thing, so I love what you've done. I like to think in terms of 1HAGS, 3HAGS you know, BHAGS if you will? What's the BHAG for Zip Code? What's the big, crazy goal for it?
Desa Burton:You know, we constantly think about that. Where are we going? What is the really big end goal for a Zip Code? I'm not sure we have a really solid answer for that just yet. But I can say that if we're able to make this work, and we're eight years in and have done great things, but being able to make this work, maybe we can apply this in other industries. And we're looking at doing that. We've made it work in Wilmington in New Castle County, now we're extending it down all the way through Delaware. We're able to do remote training for folks as far as Rehoboth Beach to Market Street to beyond to Philly. And then having this be something that we can either do as instruction remotely across the nation, or teaching others regions how to apply that Zip Code model to the job industry that they need to build. I know right now we have a really challenging road ahead with semiconductor manufacturing. We have a challenging road ahead with health care, we have a challenging road ahead in a number of industries and being able to take the workforce that we have in place, and rescale it and put it to work in areas that we meet. I think is just critical.
Chris Burkhard:You're absolutely right. Upskilling and reskilling is everything. And I think one interesting thing that I see Desa, is that it's going to be, used to be I left my company to get upskill. I think the trend is to hold on to people and find a way to upskill them within the company. Which is an old fashioned thought but organizations are not at least until this minute, not letting go the way they used to, which I think is not a bad thing as long as it doesn't hold people up in their careers. Because I think some movement is good, no movement is not good.
Desa Burton:Right.
Chris Burkhard:So, what would benefit you from the community? What what do you need? What messages are important to get out there about your program and about Zip Code Wilmington?
Desa Burton:One of the things that we need more of is awareness of technology careers and acceptance of those careers. I hear people say all the time, if you can't see it, you can't believe it, or they don't want to take on a career that they don't know anyone that does those things. But we have to get beyond that. Right? We need folks, whether they have a cousin, brother, father or mother, that's a software developer to consider that software development is a career that is possible for them. You don't have to have advanced math to do it. You didn't have to be valedictorian of your class in high school to do it. These are things that we're all going to be learning. I would hope and encourage the community to consider to embrace technology and to consider that if you're in a role that is not moving you forward, that you would think about moving into something new, that you're open to taking on those new challenges. The amazing thing about the United States and I love our country, it's a great nation, is that we've been a nation that has never shied away from doing hard things. And I think now, in the age of technology, we cannot shy away from taking that on. We need to continue to do hard things.
Chris Burkhard:I'll tell you what my hard earned professional opinion is on this. We have developed a bias against development that is apprentice type basis. That is certificate based type. There was a bias that at some point to get everybody to college. I love what you're saying but we've got to make it okay for families and communities to go do apprentice work. There are a lot of jobs like coding, plumbers and engineers, I could go on and on, that are great jobs that create, pay a lot of taxes and help a lot of families, but we're not pushing people towards the opportunities. And that's a broader message for me. And that does not represent thesis opinion, perhaps. But I think it's really important for us to embrace apprenticeships. We used to be great at this.
Desa Burton:Well, I think to your point, opportunities. Pushing people towards opportunities and having people embrace those opportunities. Again, we've gotten to a place where we're very comfortable doing the things that we were doing but the world is moving much faster than that. And we cannot continue to do that. Our workforce cannot continue to be
Chris Burkhard:That is a great statement and it's a powerful two dimensional. visual too. You are so correct in that. Alright, we're going back in time. What advice would you give your twenty one year old self?
Desa Burton:Listen to mom, whatever she says.
Chris Burkhard:Yes, but you're still doing that. You've been doing that every year for all nine years since you were twenty one.
Desa Burton:Okay, it's been a while since twenty one and I always have been kind of a mom's girl but years ago, she told me everything in moderation and I didn't really listen that well. So going back to the taking care of yourself. I used to think I had to do these long distance runs and I had to do this excessive exercise. And now that I'm in my golden years, maybe I don't know if you want to think about that way. I don't have the mobility. I don't have the ability to do certain things that I used to do. And I wish I had taken advantage of her saying just do things in moderation. I think it just goes for everything. You know, again, less listening to what the world is saying and listening to some of that practical advice that you get from a parent or a colleague.
Chris Burkhard:Hopefully, you got my book Opposite The Crowd. There's a whole chapter about how people chase shiny objects versus know who they are. And I think your advice is golden, it's platinum, it's whatever you want to call it. I think so much, we waste so much time and energy by not knowing who we are and trusting ourselves in that regard. Desa, this has been awesome. Like you said, I feel like we've known each other forever. And we've known each other twenty one days. Have we gotten all the key messages out?
Desa Burton:I think so. We want people to know they can do hard things, they can get great new skills, get into a new job, have a new life that not only impacts them, but impacts their children, their children's children and supports the community. And these are things that employers can support. If you have a need for software developers, data engineers, you can come to a place where you have this talented talent pool of people who have expertise, who've already been getting to work, know how to work in a professional environment and can fit right into your teams and support them from day one. I think one thing we haven't said is one of the reasons this is important is because as much as I hear from people, oh, well, that's software stuff, that's just for my kids, I'll just tell my kids about it. In ten years, think about an eight year old girl going to school right now. In the ten years it takes for her to reach eighteen and officially into the workforce,you'll still be working in that ten years, for the most part. The parents that are saying this are thrity five, forty five years old. You're still going to be working in that very same work environment that you're expecting your child to know, but you don't.
Chris Burkhard:Well, and it's a heck of a time to start a new chapter of this in our discussion. But I think it may not be common practice, but you're going to have ten to thirteen different jobs and maybe seven different careers. So pivoting and I get on the radio every now and again with WDEL and the most common question Desa is, What are the jobs of the future? It's constantly that. It almost doesn't matter what the answer is, it's always a different one. What matters is somebody has to be trained from what they were doing into that job. It's constant, so you're right. Whether you're fifty eight and thinking about your next career that's part time or whether you're forty, and you need to be redeployed in something or twenty one. It's a constant thing, it'll never stop. The world changes too much. We're never going to be on one job for forty years anymore. That's pretty powerful.
Desa Burton:There's another piece to that as well. As much as someone who is thirty five, forty five years old, saying, Well, I don't want to have to learn something new and this is fine. If you have that eight year old child and you were to upskill and rescale yourself in the next six to eight months, less than a year, then the next nine years of that child's life you're going to be making, if you went to Zip Code, on average, $50,000 more, multiply that $50,000 times nine. And imagine how much more you can do for that child and preparing them for their future, than you would have if you just stayed
Chris Burkhard:How much more is in retirement? How much more is where you were. in the quality of life? How much more is in their free time? You put it in that equation and it redefines our responsibilities as parents, quite frankly, and I hadn't even thought of it that way. But you want to equip them for success for the future. We'll have show notes by the time someone gets to us listening to this. We've talked about books, we've talked about some things. But if an employer is looking for programmer, data, scientists talent or if someone just wants to find out if they're qualified for this program, what's the best way for them to inquire?
Desa Burton:Oh, they should go to our website ZipCode@Wilmington.com and check out the information we have for folks that are interested in attending our program. If you're an employer, there are sections on our website there for you as well. You can reach out to Dan Stabb, who is our Director of Professional Development and Admissions. I told you about him earlier. Dan@ZipCodeWilmington.com. That's his email. And if you're an employer looking to connect and hire talent, you can reach out to Lossie Freeman, Lossie@ZipCodeWilmington.com.
Chris Burkhard:So if you're just listening, we will make sure that they're in show notes so you'll be able to see it, and there will be a transcript of this, so that will be of value. Desa, I feel like I could do it all day long, but even a good things got to wrap up. Any closing comments with any catchphrases that are really valuable? Anything you think? Anything come to mind?
Desa Burton:Do good recklessly. Chris, do good recklessly,
Chris Burkhard:You will come back again when you rule the world?
Desa Burton:You will have ruled the world first. But yes, I'll be back.
Chris Burkhard:There's room in my world for you. I meant doing this. So actually, to clarify, I meant as Zip Code Wilmington moves forward, will you come back and tell us more about what the good you're doing?
Desa Burton:Absolutely. It would be my pleasure and thank you so much for having me today, Chris.
Chris Burkhard:Thank you. A few years back, I started Outside Insights really as a platform to do good. The pandemic was raging, a time of confusion, angst. And it kind of triggered some creativity where for me, I was constantly spending time with either entrepreneural or business clients or the workforce. And there were problems, problems with people not necessarily being where they want to be in life. So the irony is, is Outside Insights and my book Opposite The Crowd, which I co authored with my dad, Alan Burkhard, we're kind of born together as Alan was some of those early guests. And those guest shows turned into chapters of our book. It was an audio book first. It can be found anywhere you listen to audio books or listen to podcasts. It's out in both. But I did want to share for those of you that are interested in reading our story. And there really is some great stuff about helping you have the life you want. Helping you work on leadership or master change. There's some great stuff in there and that book is now available. It's available in a hardback from Amazon and the Kindle as well as audible versions are up, and I ask that you just, you know, you're on Amazon anyway ordering stuff for the house. Check out Opposite The Crowd and let me know what you think. Thank you