Sex Therapy, Sexual Consent and Grief and Loss: A Conversation with Dr. Deb Bernstein

In this episode I share a conversation with Dr. Deb Bernstein, a licensed psychologist who has been in clinical practice in Warwick, New York for 24 years. Dr. Deb as a renaissance woman — she is also a potter and a gourmet cook with 12,000 followers on her food blog on Instagram (Dr.Debs.pots). Whether it is with her patients, through her pottery, as a gourmet cook, or as a mother, Dr. Deb sees her life work as creating and witnessing transformation. We begin with exchanging ideas on a sex therapy case in which the woman felt no desire and thought that she would be perfectly happy if she didn’t have sex for the rest of her life. We then move on to talk about the hot topic of sexual consent, including how we give or don’t give clear signals of yes or no to going further. Lastly, Dr. Deb shares some stories and ideas about how to deal with the pain of losing a loved one. This episode is sponsored by PonderRosa studios of Lafayette New Jersey. Warm sound, good people (ponderRosastudios.com)

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:03

To love, learn, to laugh, to love, to be, love, to see beauty, to understand, to bring grace to the things that matter most. This is Psychology America with Dr. Alexandra. Welcome to my show. For every life stage, we have questions. Let's enhance our lives together as we explore the things that matter most. Our sponsor today is Ponderosa Studios of Lafayette, New Jersey. Warm sound, good people. In this episode, I have a conversation with Dr. Deb Bernstein, a licensed psychologist who's been in clinical practice in the village of Warwick, New York for 24 years. I would describe Dr. Deb as a renaissance woman. She's also a potter, meaning she creates and glazes beautiful pottery, and can be found on Dr. Debspotts.com. She's a gourmet cook with 12,000 followers on her food blog on Instagram at dr.debbs.potts. Whether it's with her patients, through her pottery, as a gourmet cook or as a mother, Dr. Deb sees her life work as creating and witnessing transformation. Dr. Deb and I begin with exchanging ideas on a sex therapy case I had in which the woman felt no desire and thought that she would be perfectly happy if she didn't have sex for the rest of her life. We then moved on to talk about the hot topic of sexual consent, including how we give or don't give clear signals of yes or no going further. Lastly, Dr. Deb shares some stories and ideas about how to deal with the pain of losing a loved one. I'm delighted to share this first episode of Psychology America with you, and I hope you'll enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Hi, Deb.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Hi, Alexandra.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Lovely to be with you tonight.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

So nice to be with you. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Thank you for having me in your home here in Warwick.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

So I'm hosting you for our time together, and you're hosting me on your podcast. It's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

And the fire is very nice right here. Totally nice and good. So, Deb, you're a psychologist.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I am. And we went to the same graduate school. That's right. Probably some time apart.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yes, different times, but same graduate school. When did you graduate? 2002. Finished. Okay. So I thought maybe um we could begin with talking about a case that I had a number of years ago, and I could get your perspective on it. I'd love to hear it. Okay. This was a case of um a couple. They were probably late twenties, early 30s, did not have children yet. And they were happy. The woman said she experienced zero desire.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Zero.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Zero. She said in front of him, lovingly, that she'd be fine if she never did it again. He knew that, of course. Her mother was the same way. Zero desire. And she loved him. And she didn't want it to be this way. So they came in for uh to a psychologist to me to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

That's a tough problem. Yes. Okay, so do you want to tell me a little bit about what you did or should I start asking questions right away? Because I know what I would want to know.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Hmm. I'm thinking um maybe I should tell you what I did because it'll answer some of your questions. Okay. But then I'd like to hear what you would do because you're about to launch a new practice in sex therapy, or you have been doing it.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Well, I have been doing sex therapy for many, many, many years, and I've specialized in it, but I've never really marketed myself as a sex therapist, and I'm about to do that.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Okay. And I know that it took you a long, long, long time to call yourself a potter.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

It did. So I that's an interesting question if I call myself a sex therapist. I probably have.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yes. I my point is I know that you are cautious. Um you feel like you really want to be an expert at something before you will market it. I would say as you have with pottery. Right. That's true. And that's a different topic. Maybe we'll have to. Yes. So, um, so as I said, she had zero desire. I remember that as we talked further about it, we were able to realize that um once she got going, she was okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

That's really important and also pretty common for women.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yes. Now what happened in the dynamic of the relationship is that because she didn't want to have sex, he every time he would touch her, she would cringe after a while because she was afraid that he wanted sex. He started to want it more and more because he got nothing. And it got to a point where whereas they used to be physically affectionate, once um she avoided sex for long enough and he became more and more desperate to have it, she was afraid that every time he touched her for just some affection, just a little touch, that he that he wanted sex. So then she would pull away. She would pull away. So then it left it led to less and less physical affection in general, which was very painful to him. So um yeah, she realized uh as we spoke that it was more anticipatory anxiety, but that once she started it was okay. Um what I did is I first had them time it.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

You what did you have them time? The act and everything that came after, which for them included a shower. Um how long did it wind them taking them?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Always less than a half an hour, the whole thing. So the point that you were making was it'll be over fast? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

She perceived that she was so busy and so exhausted that she didn't have time. So, okay, so they timed it and realized it's it's it's okay. It doesn't take that much time, right? Um secondly, I had them create a space in their room, which they called the sex space. They made it feel sexy. Persian rug, uh pillows. Then I had them choose a time. She was too tired at night. So they figured out morning was better, and they chose once a week Saturday mornings. And it was a rule, they were only to have sex on Saturday mornings and no other time, so that they could start touching more in between without her fear that it would lead to sex.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Mmm, good thinking. And so they would just be in their sex space and their sex time, and she didn't have to feel threatened.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yes. Makes sense. And what happened?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

It worked. They they had sex once a week, which they were both very happy with, and years later they were still having sex once a week. I I take an approach of intermittent periods throughout a person's lifetime, so I will set my patients free quickly, and then they might come back if something comes up. I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

I like to do that too. Yes. And so you followed up with them and you got to know. They followed up with me when something else came up. I see, and it was still working. It was still working. And she was enjoying the sex that they were having.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yes, because she enjoyed it once it got going. So she always did enjoy it. She just thought she had zero desire. So that's what happened with them. But you're much more up to date on what's happening in this field of sex therapy.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Well, there's some new stuff that if this was a couple of years ago, you probably would not have been aware of because it's brand new. So one of the things that we're really learning now is that for all people, there are two sort of opposing factors when it comes to desire and arousal with sex. And I'm not going to get into the technical terms for it, but basically, we're looking at what we think of as the accelerator and the break. So the accelerator are things that drive desire and arousal, things that make you into having sex and enjoy sex once you start having it. And then the breaks are things that interfere with both desire and arousal. So accelerator things are things like your erotic script, your fantasy, your attraction to your partner. Um, what else would be an accelerator that would make you really be into sex, kind of your lust for life, what drives you forward towards your partner, or just towards a sexual state of mind and state of body, and then what drives your arousal once you start getting into sex? So those are the accelerator things. And the break things are things like it's not working for me, I'm not attracted to my partner, I don't like the way my partner smells, I don't like the way I'm being touched. Um anxiety is a huge break, particularly for women. So I would want to look into if these were my clients, what are the accelerators and what are the breaks? What are the things that make her attracted to him? Attracted to the idea of sex in general, what's her erotic script? What turns her on? What kind of fantasies does she have? It's entirely possible that she's got some kinks that haven't been explored, and if we don't tap into that, nothing is going to work for her. Um maybe she's gay, maybe she's bi. Maybe she's not really attracted to him. Now, one of the things that you hit on that's really important is that particularly for women and for people who are getting older, both men and women, desire-driven sex becomes rarer. Right? When we're young and we're full of hormones, and we're all pumped up being attracted to each other, we get used to having desire-driven sex. That is, I think you're hot, I can't wait to get into your pants, I can't wait to get my hands on you, and the rest kind of sort of takes care of itself. Although when you look more closely, what you get to know is, especially for women, maybe not so much. Like maybe you're really motivated to do it, but once it gets going, it doesn't really work because he doesn't really know what he's doing, and you don't know how to teach him. So that's a whole other issue. And that may be going on with this couple, right? Right. Does this guy actually know what he's doing? Does she know what she's doing? Does she know what turns her on? Does she know how to tell him what turns her on? Yeah. Right? Yes. Are they tapped into any of her erotics? We think that they're probably tapped into his because he wants to have plenty of sex with her, but we don't know what her erotics are, whether she understands them, whether she knows how to put them into play, communicate that to that to him, or whether or not he has a clue what he's doing. How to touch her, how to please her, how to get her interest, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

And can they talk about these things? And can they talk about these things? And that's another skill in itself. That's a completely separate skill, right.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Right. So it's clear that they're not having desire-driven sex. One of the things I would want to know is, did they ever? Ah, something got them together as a couple. So my guess is unless she just really wanted a boyfriend slash husband, she probably was turned on by him at some point. Did they ever have good sex? Was she ever really into sex with him? Right? We need to know that. Not that that's necessarily going to translate into anything meaningful now, because even if they did have desire-driven sex at the very beginning, they're not having it now, which is not unusual. But something else has to stand in for them.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah, talk about that. That desire-driven sex is not normal after after a certain age, usually, is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

It's pretty rare once a couple has been together for a while. Right? It's why a lot of for a lot of couples, sex drops off once they've been together for a while. Because part of what fuels desire-driven sex is newness. Yes. Right? It's novelty. It's very exciting to be with somebody that you're just getting into, that you're just discovering. And so if you had desire-driven sex when you were young or when you were first meeting, and now you've been together for a while, and that new shine wears off, and you haven't figured out any other way to substitute for that, you're really left with no way to initiate sexual encounters. And because they didn't, a lot of couples figure it out, right? They figure out that, oh, here's just an example. If he offers to take care of the kids, or I think you said this couple didn't have kids, but let's say a traditional couple that has a couple of kids, if he offers to take care of the kids that evening, draws a bath for her, makes sure that the laundry is done because those are all sexual breaks, right? Those are all things that she could be worried about or anxious about or distracted that are going to get interfere with her having a desire for sex. He takes care of all of that stuff. And he gives her a nice foot massage and makes her feel all warm and cozy.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

And those are accelerators that you mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Or, for example, she realizes that a certain kind of erotic literature really turns her on.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

And the two of them together tap into that. And they really know that if she reads, if they maybe read some erotic stories together, that's going to get her in the mood, right? So they create a space, or like you did, by having a particular sex space in the bedroom that could, you know, sort of set the mood for her.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Right? What works to sort of at least get her into an open state of mind where she's willing to be touched in a sexual way. And then, you know, and this is pretty common. If there aren't too many breaks and you figure out enough accelerators, chances are, unless there's something else wrong, she'll get into it and have a good time. If he knows what he's doing and she knows what she's doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

So there's a lot to talk about. Like when you're in sex therapy, I, you know, this is the first time I'm learning about accelerators and breaks. Really? As vocabulary words. Um, is there a list of accelerators and breaks somewhere, or is this something that you would just explore couples couple by couple?

SPEAKER_00 17:37

So the book that I really recommend for this is by a wonderful sex educator named Emily Nagoski. N-A-G-O-W-S-K-I. Yes. Really, really smart little cookie, and if I remember correctly, she is a PhD in human sexuality, I think. Okay. And her book is called Come As You Are. Don't quote me. Look her up. I might be messing this up, but I think that's a good one. We have the name though. And uh she talks all about this, and she'll do a much, much better job with it than I do. And uh P. S. She also is a fiction writer, and I'm not gonna be able to tell you either what her ghost name is, it's Emily something else here, she's got a ghost name. Oh my god, I should have looked it up. I'm so sorry. And it's two books, and it's the intellectual's answer to Fifty Shades of Great. You must read them. They are smart and they're hot and they're sweet, and she does it so much better than the author of Fifty Shades.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Thank you for those suggestions. Really fun. Is there anything else you would add about this couple, other ideas? Or we can move on to a different topic.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

I think that more or less covers it. Yeah, I would really want to know a whole lot more about what works for her sexually and what interferes for her sexually. I loved what you did about making it safe for them to have touch without her feeling the demand for sex, though. That was brilliant and important, and it may have saved their marriage. So nice job.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Well, thank you. I love your new ideas, Deb. That was really fun! Okay, what next? Okay, so I thought maybe next we could talk about. Um, yesterday I I had mentioned by text or a few days ago that I wanted to get to know you more than from your website. Um, I know you're a psychologist, I know you do pottery, I know that you have a cooking blog. And you sent me some screenshots of a Facebook interchange between you and your daughter and some of her friends.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

And my son piped in.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Your son from Australia.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

I actually don't know if I even got to that part in what I sent you because he was down the line. It went on and on and on this Facebook exchange. Yeah, I only got a few pages. Yeah, it went on probably for three more times that amount of space, and I stopped sending them to you because I felt like I was gonna be bombarding you.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

No. It was they were very interesting posts, and it was all about sexual consent.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Which is a really huge hot topic in the news right now, and I have really gotten drawn into this dialogue. I have, and my husband has, and our two kids have, and I think it's really, really super important right now.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

So it is a topic right now, especially with the Me Too movements.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Right. And by the way, it references the case that you just talked about, right? This woman had all of this anxiety that simply being touched was gonna mean that she felt compelled to have sex with her partner. So that even within the context of a committed relationship, there was that dynamic that she felt uncomfortable, that she was gonna have a certain level of coercion based on simply allowing herself to be touched.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yes, and that's part of the conversation is the line to distinguish between consensual sex and non consensual sex, and when is it coercion? And I know that you had mentioned that you have ideas about how to help children to learn about this, teenagers to learn about this, boys and girls.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

And I was very interested to. Hear your ideas, especially as a mother of four children, three girls and a boy. They're still young.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Now tell me about your kids really quick. Just tell me the ages and the names so I know.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

So Rebecca is 15, Sarah is 13, Julia is 10, and then little George is eight. Oh my goodness. And you have two children.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

I do. Megan is 27, and Brian is 24.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

So this was a Facebook post, mostly Megan writing.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Megan really was the one who started the conversation, and it was in response to the most recent incident in the news, which was Aziz Ansari being accused of how do we even want to describe it? I suppose the best way to describe it is being inappropriately aggressive with his date. And it was just today that I finally read the in-depth account of her experience on a date with him. And did you read that?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

I read it on the website, maybe babe.com.com or babe.com. Right. It was pretty troubling, wasn't it? The way that he behaved. So this was a situation where she it was a date, and it was a first date, and she describes in detail, and she didn't use her real name, she used Grace. Right. Where he repeatedly, she's writing, the author writes, that he repeatedly kept asking for sex and not reading her signals. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Right, and I think touching her without at least tuning into whether or not she was welcoming or enjoying his touch.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

And I think that this particular case was unusual in the sense of all of the other cases in which women have reported feeling coerced or forced, in that this young woman didn't actually say no, although it does look to me like there was a point at which she verbalized being uncomfortable. And he backed off for a while, but then he started again. Yes. But what's really key to me about all of these stories, including some in my own life and in the lives of my daughter and my niece, and I'm sure you, and pretty much every woman that I know, that something goes on where women don't feel comfortable saying no. Sometimes we do, if it's really extreme. And there are certainly cases where women verbalize no and men don't respect that, which is very obviously not okay, although it happens. But I'm particularly intrigued by cases like this one, where women are uncomfortable but they don't make it clear. And what's going on in those instances in each of those people's minds? What goes on with men that they either don't pick up on the signals or they do pick up on them but they decide to ignore them. And what's going on with women that somehow or another they're going forward and doing things that they don't feel comfortable doing, or allowing things to be done to them that they don't feel comfortable with.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yes. So Aziz, his statement, I don't know exactly, was that he didn't realize. He was sorry, he didn't realize it. That's right. And as I read this, I thought about the social and emotional component of, from the woman's perspective, how do they learn how to read their own red alert signals that say they don't want this? Right. And how do they learn to make it clear and make it known and walk away and be uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yes. One story which is very, very troubling, is that I worked at a shelter when I was in graduate school for abused children. And my boss was a social worker, and he was in his late 40s. I was 23. And he flirted with me so hard that I was afraid to go to work. And it was pretty constant. And this was back in the day where we didn't know about sexual harassment. This was, I'm gonna say, 1982. Okay. So I was 23, he was probably 49. And he would invite me into his office and tell me how much he appreciated me and how pretty I was, and ask me to run my fingers through his hair and ask me to sit on his lap. Wow. And he would make comments to me when I walked down the hall. He would stare at me, he would stare at my almost non-existent chest and leer and touch me. And so, somehow or another, I can't tell you how, I actually got up the gumption when he had me in his office and he was flirting with me to say to him, listen, you're making me uncomfortable. I don't like the flirting. I really want you to stop. And he said, Well, I would if he didn't dress like that. Not. Oh, kidding. Wow. It got worse. Do you want to hear the worse? Yeah. So so happened at this shelter, I was like a counselor for the kids. Yes. And while I was there, taking care of the kids, someone stole my purse with my wallet, my keys, my IDs, everything. I got to know who the thief was because the police called me. The thief had tried to cash a paycheck from the agency where I worked by forging my signature. And so they had caught him. And he was going to be up on federal charges for forging the stolen check, but the police, because they now knew who it was, wanted me to press charges against him for the theft. And I had to press charges, which meant I had to face this guy in court. Well, I vaguely recognized him. I didn't know him, but I knew who he was, and he was big and scary. And that was really all I knew about it. He had stolen my purse, and he was big and scary, and he was an ex-employee of this agency in Hackinson. I was terrified to press charges against him because he was big and scary. He had all of my IDs, he had keys to my car and my apartment, presumably, and I didn't know what he might do. The only person who knew him, besides me, was my boss. The guy was flirting with me.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

So I didn't know what to do because I wanted his advice, but I also didn't want him flirting with me. And you didn't feel safe? And I didn't feel safe. I didn't feel safe around the guy who had stolen my purse, and I didn't feel safe around my boss. But I decided my boss is a social worker, presumably he knows this guy. And even though I really did not want to sit alone in an office with my boss, that I was going to take the chance and ask for his advice. So I went to him, I laid out the scenario, and I said, Should I press charges? Am I safe? He looked at me, he leaned back in his chair, he put his feet up on his desk, and he leaned way back. And he said, So, what's your fantasy? I said, What? Wow. He goes, What's your fantasy about what he might do to you? I said, an expletive I will not repeat here on the podcast. Stood up, said, I quit, I'm never coming back here again, and walked out. I did not press charges, and I never walked back into that agency again. Wow. That was brave. Now, the other thing that I'm really aware of, my daughter, well, this is another really, really, really big digression, but you'll appreciate it. When my daughter was 16 years old, she came home from school and she said to me, Mom, guess what? I have a new hobby. And I said, Really, what is it? And she said, evolutionary biology. So I like my daughter think in evolutionary terms, right? Why is it that the female of the species doesn't turn down the male of the species? Right? Well, if you think about the sex act itself, are we not somewhat endangered? First of all, the male of the species is bigger. Second of all, we take them into our bodies. If we stop in the middle, do we not get injured? If we're uncomfortable and we put a halt to it, are we going to get beaten up? Are we going to get ripped? That's right. Yes. Or ripped, right? Yes. Wow. Yeah. Yes. And I believe it's in our DNA that we feel endangered in the presence of male desire, male aggressiveness, male advances. We freeze. Sometimes we fight, sometimes we flee, but most often we freeze. One more story for you.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

And I just want to say I really I relate to the freeze. We all do. As it relates to unwanted sexual aggression. I think that for much of my life I would freeze. Most of us.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

I get that. Most of us have.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

I think that wow, just psychoeducation, just teaching girls about the awareness of the fight or the flight or the freeze. Right. Just if they just knew about the freeze so that they could know what that is, because they have the intuition, they know, red alert, red alert, something I don't like this. I don't like this. This doesn't feel right. Right. But I know that I might freeze here, and now I have to kind of break out of this and speak up for myself.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Right. So just today, I read an article, and I imagine it was written this week by Barbara King Salver, famous author, famous feminist. And she said that she took her two daughters when they were in fifth grade, each of them, when they went into fifth grade, because the boys were starting to go into puberty, and she sat them down and she made them rehearse. Don't say that to me, don't do that to me, I hate that. Or something like that. I think it was, don't do that to me, don't say that to me. I hate that. And she made them say it over and over so that they would have that prepared if somebody did something to them that they felt uncomfortable with. I am not convinced that that's going to do a trick. I think it's I think it's great training and I think it needs to happen. But where I really think we need to advocate, where I really think we need to change the culture, is that fathers need to talk to their sons. And I think they need to say over and over that you need to pay very close attention to a woman, to a girl or a woman. And if she is not giving enthusiastic, active consent, back off. If she's not really into it, or one of Megan's friends said, Ravens, back off. Now, the only problem with that, we've already identified. And that is what you were telling me about your client. She didn't get into it until it was already happening. So in a consensual relationship, is it okay for him to start even though she's not warmed up yet? Right. And I think really the only answer to that dilemma is that there have to be a different set of rules for an established relationship in which you exist in a state of implied consent. Right? I do think that we don't have to be ridiculous. And that if you're an established couple and you already have trust between you, consent can be implied. You don't have to ask every time you touch somebody if you've been married to them for 25 years. Are you enthusiastic right now? Right. You know, you can sort of start touching and see if she warms up or if he warms up. And you can trust that if you've been together for long enough that if somebody grabs your butt and they don't want to have their butt grabbed, they'll say, Get your hands off my butt. Right? Yes. But you I don't think you can trust that with somebody that is relatively new, or you're not in a committed relationship. I think that you want to save butt grabbing for a time when you really trust that it's safe to do that and you're not gonna be crossing a boundary.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

And I appreciate the distinction that you're making about a brand new relationship versus an established committed relationship. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

So one of the concerns, I'm gonna save my son's concern. One of the concerns that a lot of people have, not just men, is that they feel it's not sexy to have to ask. That it can sound too clinical. Yes. Um, and this is Brian's concern. My son Brian says that he feels that the women that he dates want a partner who's confident. And maybe they even like a bad boy who kind of does what he wants.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

He's saying they might like his aggressiveness, they might find it sexy. Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Right. They don't want a partner who's too tentative. Yes. And there actually is some research that suggests that the best sex partners are a little selfish. They go for it.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

They take their pleasure, they're not too tentative, they're not too eager to please. Which could make someone feel wanted if they go for it.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Right. And that's probably an accelerator for something else.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

That's right. So this is a tricky area. And I don't really have an answer for it, but it is. The thing that I'm thrilled about is that these young people are talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

That the tw that the 20-somethings are in a heated dialogue about. And it was heated. It was. But it was great. They were all smart, right? They all really were passionate about their feelings about this. So I love that. And I don't really have an answer to it, other than I think we have to raise everybody's consciousness, like you said, about the freeze issue, and really letting women know that it's okay to say, I'm uncomfortable, I don't like this, I need to stop for a while, I need to stop for good.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

I think as I think about my three girls, I would like them to first of all be able to honor that feeling inside of them that says I'm not comfortable, so to recognize it and to know that it's okay to honor it, and then to be willing to be uncomfortable to say, I don't like this. Right. So they have to face that. It's the social and emotional intelligence thing of being able to face that someone might not like them if they turn them away. Right. Or that they might appear mean. Right. And that that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

That's okay. Yes. And then for the boys, yes. Well, really for both gender, because consent doesn't just go in one direction. Sometimes it is one way to do something right. Yeah. Is there a way to obtain consent in which you stay confident and sexy? And I believe absolutely there is. If you stare deep into your partner's eyes and you say, I can't wait to kiss you, I am dying to touch you, right? You really will get an answer. Right? The person will say, Do it already. Or I can't wait either, right? Yeah. Or they'll lean towards you. But if they don't say anything or they shrink away, okay, then you don't have consent.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

And that's a big thing about the education in this area, at least what they're trying to do in universities, is to educate students as part of orientation, is silence is not enough. If they're silent, if they don't respond, that is not consent. Right. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

So we don't want to be clinical. It's not sexy to say, may I have your permission to kiss you now? May I hold your hand, right? No, that's not gonna work. But if you say, Oh, I love the feeling of your skin, is it okay? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Okay. So, Deb, I'd like to uh move on to a different topic if that would be all right.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

I wanted to talk about yesterday you went skiing.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

I did. I went up to our little ski area right here in Warwick, Mount Peter, all by myself with my ancient old skis, and I took a bunch of runs myself. It was and it was symbolic for you. It was, it was. So uh once upon a time, I went skiing in Vermont with my then fiance of five years, my college sweetheart, mom, and we were visiting my brother Steven, who was an avid skier. He went to UVM so he could ski all winter, and he belonged to two different ski areas, and I believe that day we skied at Smuggler's Notch. And then we went back to my brother's frat house and cleaned up for dinner, and my fiance ran said he didn't feel well, had a bellyache, and over the course of the evening his bellyache got worse. And by about nine o'clock that night, he couldn't stand up. He was in terrible pain, so we took him to the ER, Vermont Medical Center Hospital, and they diagnosed him with acute appendicitis and scheduled him for surgery in the morning. So we stayed with him all night, and they took him for surgery in the morning. I told him I loved him, and they wheeled him off. And I didn't tell you this part of the story. My brother said, why don't we go back to the Fred House and have some breakfast and shower? Because we had been up in the year all night. And I said, Oh, I don't know what I'm gonna do. He said, Really, they said it was gonna be a couple of hours. And there's nothing we can do here. So let's go. I was really uncomfortable. I knew independent operation was really not a big deal. His roommate had had his appendix out three weeks earlier and was already back to school. So we went back to the crowd house, I got in the shower, soaked up my hand, and had a panic attack. I didn't need a pretty hand.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

And this is not like me wasn't like So you'd never had a panic attack?

SPEAKER_00 43:25

I got out of the shower, I said to my brother's demon, we have to go back to the hospital, something's wrong. Wow. He said, Don't be ridiculous. Like, I'm sure he's not out of surgery yet. Like, there's nothing we can do there. I said, I don't care, take it back. We got back to the hospital, and they said, Yeah, he's not out of surgery, but if you like, you can go and wait in the room where he and the med search for where they're gonna be taken. So we went, they said, What you know, he's not down yet, go get coffee. We went to the cafeteria, and again I freaked out. I said, Something is wrong. We went back to the room. Now they started acting weird. They said there's a special round you can sit in. The doctor will be down to talk to you soon. Now I'm sure something was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

And it was. So the surgeon came and he said something went wrong during the surgery. Went into cardiac arrest and stopped breathing. But we got him revived. He'll be fine. We've taken him to IC just for the push. We can see him in a couple of hours. By the time we got to see him, he was on a respirator into bathing. Completely unconscious. They covered up what happened. We didn't find out for two years. But he never woke. So I spent the next two years running back and forth. Initially, he was in Vermont and then we moved him to Massachusetts, where his parents lived. And he was in a vegetative state. And it was not likely that he was going to live a normal lifespan. So every time he got pneumonia or body wide staff infection, I ran to his side because I wanted to be with him when he died. After two years, his sister, with whom I was very close, and I decided to encourage the parents to stop treating those infections and to disconnect the two fee. This was around the same time that Carrie Ann Quinlan was disconnected from her life support and allowed to die after 10 years in vegetative state. But the family were very religious Jews and they did not feel comfortable with holding life support. So they kept him alive. So at that point, the sisters stopped going, really took a stand at the parents and said, I cannot spend time at the bedside of this person who's not really alive anymore. And I stopped going, and that's when I met my husband. And within a year of that, my brother, my beloved brother, who was 18 months younger than me, was diagnosed with lunch fallout. And he lived for 15 months. The most aggressive treatment possible. So the two young men who I skied with that day died within a year of each other. Oh. And in the in-between, I got married. Oh wow. Oh wow. So my brother was at my wedding, and all the men wore hats because he didn't. Oh. It was very, very painful. I'm glad he made it to your wedding. It was sweet. It was sweet to have him there. But while I was taking my bath, I turned around and I looked at him and he was sobbing. And it wasn't until the next day when on our way to the airport to our hunting line, Bob had to pull the car off the highway because I was so hysterical because I realized he was crying because he knew he would never get married. He knew he wouldn't live to get married. I was with him when he died. I wasn't with Ron when he died, but I was with my brother when he died, which was a blessing. So I associate skiing with both of them for obvious reasons, and it's painful for me when I go skiing, but it's very, very sweet.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

But you went skiing yesterday. Was yesterday a significant day?

SPEAKER_00 47:37

My brother's birthday is January 10th.

unknown 47:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

And I always honor his birthday.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

And I didn't get to the slopes right away.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

So you honor it with skiing? I do, whenever I can. I always think it's healthy to honor a loved one with uh with an action that's a positive action or a positive ritual when the anniversary dates come. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Yeah, we do. He his death date is July 12th, and his birthday is January 10th, so they're almost exactly opposite of each other on the calendar. So we always have lobster and champagne, because that's something that we did together on his birthday. And if I can go skiing on his death day, they did. Or the other way around. July's his death day and January's birthday. And you my kids never knew him. Oh. So because you were in your twenties. And we were 18 months apart in age, so when he died, I was 28 and he was 26. And Megan was born when I was 31. And I was 34.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

My first child was 30, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah, we were elderly. Elderly mothers.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

They were very worried when George Andrew was born. I was 38. But they didn't need to be.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

It wasn't what was the word that they used for that? Advanced maternal age? High risk.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Yeah, advanced maternal age. 35 and over. Yeah. But I've heard that in Europe especially it's not considered to be advanced maternal age. They don't worry as much.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Oh, well, they shouldn't. My mother-in-law, Bob's mother, was 42 when he was born. 62 years ago. Yeah. He was a mistake. That's why he's a freak genius. It is.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

So I wonder if you could share a little bit about what it is that helped you through the mourning period.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Well, it certainly was helpful to have a lot of knowledge about the process of brief because it had been my area of study prior to that. So I knew a lot about what to expect. So that was helpful.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

And you knew about the process of how it went. I did.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Because my research area prior to that had been freedom loss.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

And what did you can you tell the listeners about the process that you knew would come?

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Well, it wasn't what we all think when we hear about grief because people in this culture still believe in the theory of Elizabeth Kublerov's.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

That's what everyone talks about.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Who actually did not study grieving people, she studied dying people.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Oh. So it's really won't those stages are about the person that's dying.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Not about the people around them.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Right. Huh. So it's not that they're not applicable, they're human feelings that people go through when they're unhappy and troubled, but they don't happen in order, and they don't have to happen, and they don't always all happen. So really it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The book I would recommend now about grief is by a psychologist named George Bonanno, and it's uh called The Other Side of Sadness. A very, very, very smart book that basically endorses the idea that we are wired for laws. We know how to do laws as human beings, that we withstand it very, very well. And um it's really a process of feelings, of going through feelings that really um don't end. You don't recover from grief like you recover from the flu and go back to normal. That the experience shapes you and changes you, and it becomes a part of your life. And uh but parental grief is a particularly difficult experience and can be threatened to marriages. And uh people grieve at their own rates and in their own time, and we need to make a lot of space for each other and support each other.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

I always said I thought I thought parental grief, a parent losing a child, is probably the greatest human pain that there is. I think yes, I think there's nothing it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Having not lost a child, having lost a brother and a fiance, and living through parental laws with a lot of other people, including my own parents and my fiance's parents, I can tell you that if I think about the possibility of that ever happening to me, I imagine that I would simply drop dead. Now I know that's not true because I've watched it so many times, I've been a part of it so many times. Yes, but I still don't think I can scroll.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

But it's an awful, awful feeling just to even think of it. I know that Ben Franklin lost a child.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Yes, and he still talked about it in his old age, it still caused him pain.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Yeah, I watched my parents all these years later, and it's still just such a huge, huge devastation to them.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

So you knew what to expect, and I wonder uh what was your greatest way to cope? What was um how how did you uh honor what you needed to go through or help yourself to get through it more easily?

SPEAKER_00 53:22

I have pictures around of both of them. I celebrate the anniversaries of their births and their deaths. Um we talk about them. I myself, I think because they were so young and I was so young, I sort of incorporated their lives into mine. So I kind of think of myself as somebody who lives two or three different lives. Huh. Like I live extra four.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Let me hear.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

I travel, I do things, I learn things. I've had people say to me, you know, I get up in the middle of the night, make pottery, I have an active practice, I cook, I'm passionate about a lot of things. I've had people say to me, Deb, let me ask you something. Do you sleep?

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Because you have so many passions.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Yeah, because I feel like, okay, this is my one true life. I don't know how long I get to live it. I'm gonna live it to the max. They lost their lives so young. They had so much that they wanted to do and accomplish. So I live hard, I love hard.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

And I think that's the only antidote to that that we have.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Is to live.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

And live more.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Right. Be really present to our lives.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Row ourselves into it.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

And you're a runner.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

I am.

unknown 54:44

I am.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

You were showing me the mountain where you ski, then you said you run to that mountain.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

I do. I run across the valley, and over there, there is a farm in the valley of a bunch of cows that make the milk that ships up to the top of the mountain where the ice cream place is, that has, according to TripAdvisor, the number two rated ice cream in the country.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

This is Warwick, New York.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

This is Warwick, New York.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

And what's the name of the place?

SPEAKER_00 55:18

It's called Bellevale Creamery, and the farm is Bellevale Farm, and you can go and you can visit the cows. So I run over to the cows and I sing them anti-war songs.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Why do you do that? They like them. Anti-war songs.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Oh, that's what you mean. Oh yeah, 70s rock is anti-war.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Those old folk songs, our little country. It's like reaching to the clock.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

But that's so specific to the cows, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

And uh yeah, so I run about 35 miles a week. And I'm just at 58 years old hoping that my knees holds out, which they're threatening not to do, but it keeps me happy and I feel pretty fit and young, and Bob and I have been running together the last couple of years, which is super, super fun.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

Very nice to share that.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

He has a little gets out ahead of me, but we work it out.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

So um, could you share with the listeners how they can find you or learn more about you, Deb?

SPEAKER_00 56:40

So um I have a listing on the psychology today directory if anybody is interested in my practice. And I have two websites. One is for my pottery and food, and that is called Debspots.com, D-E-B-S-P-O-T-S.com, and my psychology website is dr debstein.com.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Thank you, Deb. It's been such a pleasure, and thank you for being my first person to interview for this podcast. And now we're going to eat dinner. Yay. On your pottery.