Forgiveness: a Rabbi, a Pastor and a Muslim

I enjoyed this wonderful conversation as we explored the following profound and often perplexing questions: Why forgive? How does psychology define forgiveness and how do Judaism, Christianity and Islam see forgiveness? Does forgiving mean we are pardoning bad behavior? Do you need the offender to participate if you want to forgive? What steps can we take to forgive and how do we do it? Guests for this episode bring the perspectives of Judaism, Islam and Christianity to the topic. Rabbi Mendel Dubov serves as faculty at the Rabbinical College of America in Morristown, NJ, USA and as Director of Chabad in Sussex County, NJ. Saifulla Chaudahry serves as Propagation Secretary for Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of North Jersey. Pastor Michael Bos, Ph.D. serves as the Senior Minister of Marble Collegiate Church of New York City and is the President of the Collegiate Churches of New York. Dr. Bos established the first interfaith religious diplomacy center on the Arabian Peninsula, and received the U.S. Ambassador’s Award for Community Service. Psychology studies have found that when people forgive it decreases anxiety, depression and obsessive thinking about the offender. Multiple studies have also found that forgiveness improves mood, psychological health and the quality of one’s relationships overall. To read & explore further about forgiveness , may I suggest starting with a search of psychology studies by Robert Enright and Richard Fitzgibbons. I hope you will enjoy and learn from this very special episode! If you have enjoyed Psychology America with Dr. Alexandra, there are a few ways that you can show your support: 1) visit iTunes and leave us a 5-Star rating, 2) order a book from PsychologyAmerica.com where there is a selection of books I’ve personally chosen (your order will go seamlessly through to Amazon.com) or 3) press subscribe to continue to receive new episodes. Would you like to teach your child nine and under about how to have an optimistic outlook even when things go wrong? Consider purchasing my book entitled: “There’s Always Hope: a Story About Overcoming.” It can be found on The PsychologyAmerica.com website or at Amazon.com. The beautiful illustrations were painted by Philadelphia resident, Briana Giasullo, and the book also imparts empathy for the disabled. 

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SPEAKER_00 0:04

To love, learn, to laugh, to love, to feed, love, to see beauty, to understand.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

To bring credit to the things that matter most.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

This is Psychology America with Dr. Alexandra. Welcome to my show. For every life stage, we have questions. Let's enhance our lives together as we explore the things that matter most. Welcome to Psychology America with Dr. Alexandra. Thank you for coming today. This podcast is about the topic of forgiveness, forgiveness in our relationships, in our personal relationships. And I have three guests here with me. I have Rabbi Mendel Dubov. You are a member of the faculty of the Rabbinical College of America, and the director of Chabad in Sussex County, New Jersey, where I live. And you grew up in Wimbledon, England.

unknown 1:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

We also have Safala Chaudry, board member and local outreach coordinator for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, North New Jersey chapter. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Welcome, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

And Pastor Michael Boss, senior minister of Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, Manhattan, president of the Collegiate Churches of New York, recipient of the U.S. Ambassadors Award for Community Service for starting the first interfaith center for dialogue in the Arabian Peninsula. Congratulations. Thanks. Michael, Pastor Michael, you and I have something in common.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Michael's great two.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Okay. We have two things in common. We both went to Duke.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

And we both subject ourselves to a tennis clinic where we get yelled at by a pro named Cal.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Absolutely. I consider it a form of therapy, actually. I do too.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

There's something nice about it.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

There is. We're both in professions where you always have to be uh nice. And on the tennis court, it's a chance to be not so nice sometimes. And I find that the beginning of my existence to be able to do what I do.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yeah, you do we do release something on the court. Yeah. So forgiveness. In terms of psychology and what psychology studies have found, studies have found that forgiveness will decrease anxiety, decrease depression, decrease the anger that we feel. It'll also improve our relationships, not just the relationship with the person that offended you, but the relationships with everyone else around you. And it'll improve your self-esteem and your sense of well-being. And I'm here to share some of what psychology has found, but I'm also looking forward to your perspectives on this topic. So why don't we start with the question of what is the definition of forgiveness? And either I could start with the psychological definition of forgiveness or anyone else can begin.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

I'd be interested to hear what psychology says about this.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Gladly, sure. So what I like to tell my patients is a definition that I heard that I read a few years ago. And it ha it goes like this. Even though the person who you would like to forgive has offended you, and they don't necessarily deserve forgiveness, you do two things. There are two parts. The first part is you don't do your resentment response. The resentment response is either to attack or to withdraw, or both. The second part is you treat the person to willful acts of benevolence. Some people might feel like the first part, like, well, I I started talking to them, so that's my act of benevolence, but that's not enough. It's more. In a simple term, it would be you would make them cookies. It would be like extra, besides just talking to them again.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

I feel that's the that's the doing of forgiveness. Um about the definition itself. Uh I like to I like to you know, we have in in Judaism a day, uh Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year. The word kippur is translated as a day of atonement. Um atonement is highly associated, obviously, with forgiveness. But uh why forgive? Actually, we are told that uh no uh no confession, uh no um no amends is possible between man and God for actions between man and his fellow. And one must ask for forgiveness or give forgiveness uh to one's fellow or with one's fellow in order to be able to make amends with God for that very same action. And then the question becomes to me, why forgive? And when there's a why, then we know what to do. We've gone halfway. And and in a sentence to me, the the why of forgiveness is that there is a place between the in the between the two parties a place of soul which the action that was committed doesn't c isn't there, is can melt away, can be lost.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Can you say that again within the soul?

SPEAKER_01 6:12

There is a place within a person's soul where you know the the the body if you want to look at it as crudely as between body and soul, but the the body or the bodily self of a person, we are self-centered in essence. We uh we want it well for ourselves, and if somebody else has done something um against us, then uh we find it hard to to relate to that person, to connect with that person. But on a s a level of a soul where it it's life itself and in that sense the giver of life that matters. Then the you know then everything else becomes uh secondary, becomes um a little a little less important, to put it simply. And so, and therefore, you know, so he did that, so she did that. You know. But aren't there isn't aren't there more important things? Aren't isn't our bond that ought to be deeper than that action? Obviously, however grave the action is, that's how deep you have to dig. But we're we're taught that that the recesses of the soul are is eternal and that there will be a place within within you and within the other party that you are essentially not distinct. You are essentially one. And of course, in in every setting that can apply in different ways. I was thinking more in a marriage setting where you're uh uh the where this would apply in a most immediate sense.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yes. Well, when you talk about recognizing that we are one, I'm thinking about the different phases of forgiveness within forgiveness therapy, within psychology. And I want to give credit for um Enright and Fitzgibbons for this. Um but the first phase is really recognizing your pain and all that's involved with your pain about the offense. The second phase is a decision to forgive. And after that is what's called the work. And when it comes to the work part, because just making the decision isn't enough, the work has to do with recognizing the humanity of the offender. And I think when we don't want to forgive someone, we want to just make them evil and not human.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

That's where I get into the why. That's precisely where I am. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yes, and that's what you made me think of. So um how can we see that other person as human or as vulnerable? It's hard to see them as vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

You know, we again have to go back. And in in in various, to me, in various settings, this applies in various ways. You know, um in a marriage setting it would apply one way in a work setting in another way, just in general and another way. But it it goes it goes back to the um, I think to the very core of the um what we are here, the Abrahamic monotheisms of the um intrinsic sacredness of and value of another person, regardless who they are. Not to say if they are your spouse. That's uh uh a whole different story. But any person, we're told right at the beginning of the uh Genesis that every individual is in the image of God for whatever that means. But the idea is that there is um this is a the Talmud tells a story.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Um, just like telling stories, eh? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

A great Talmudic sage was once on the road coming back from his studies, and he was feeling quite elated or good about himself. And he was riding down and he came across a man who was, as the Talmud described it, exceedingly ugly. Now, it doesn't mean physical appearance, it meant just a person in whom he could not find anything positive. Right. And he he was just so taken by by this individual that he spurted out. Do they make all the people in your town the same way as you? And the man looked up at him and said, Well, if you have a complaint, you should place it by the craftsman who crafted me. And the Talmud goes on, and then that that it it hit him like nothing else. And it it was a long process, and and the man would not forgive him until uh he came to his city and people came out to greet him because he was a great scholar, and the man said, This you treat us this is a scholar, this is a person you come out to to honor, and people said people asked him to please forgive him because he he was indeed a good man. This was something which he had you know just um just i it was a slip. But that's really the idea that that every individual is um is is sacred, is holy. And because of that, there is a the there is a non-negotiable um dignity that every person has. And being that that's the case, it becomes an in Judaism, it's an obligation. So we don't have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

How do we do that? Because you know, conceptually, maybe we'd like to recognize the dignity of everyone, but when you're really hurt, how can you pause to recognize someone's dignity and humanity and vulnerability on a practical level?

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Um I'd say you'd answer the question, pause. Um that's the Yeah, reflection.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah. Absolutely. I think in ourselves, we the importance of forgiving ourselves is is is is recognized a lot as well. And I think that comes from, you know, everyone makes mistakes and it us not being perfect. Yes. And while we are made in the image of God, and uh that's our belief that we have the capability of the things that God does, he can see, he can hear, but he's all seeing and all hearing. But he also is very forgiving, and his his mercy overwhelms his wrath. And we should be, as being made in his image, be cognizant of that and try to reflect on our mistakes and try to limit our our wrath and recognize the opportunity to forgive.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

So you're talking about um you mentioned forgiving yourself too.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

In the sense that if you can look back at your life and the mistakes that you have made, if you can find a reason that you should have been forgiven, and then also you have to forgive yourself for the mistake you've made, then it would go both ways. And then also asking God for forgiveness and and his help and his support and being able to do these things.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I think um there are situations, and I do think that when people have faith, it it helps, doesn't it? Because um those with faith have one additional way to cope and to say, I can't handle this, but with your help I can. I can't do this on my own.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

It's an interesting point because I think from a faith perspective, faith helps us reflect on our own humanity and its limitations. And by reflecting on that, pausing for that, I think we recognize that we have limitations for which we've needed forgiveness, which puts us in touch with someone else's humanity for which they need forgiveness. Yes. But I wonder in this if if sometimes we attach forgiveness to reconciliation too strongly. That if they're not two separate concepts.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

I think they are two separate concepts. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Well, uh I as we're having this conversation, you asked the great question, why do we forgive uh Lu Smeads, who's since passed away but was a really a great Christian theologian, and he wrote a lot about forgiveness, which people couldn't get enough of because we all, you know, to be human and be in relationships me means we need forgiveness. There has to be a place for forgiveness or we can't continue on. But he separated forgiveness from reconciliation and being reunited with someone, and he said this that to forgive someone is to set the prisoner free and to realize the prisoner was you.

unknown 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

And for me, that really gets at the work of forgiveness because there are times somebody's hurt or harmed us and they may have died. There is no reconciliation possible yet. Is forgiveness still possible? And I believe it is. It's kind of the healing of that memory that allows you to not have the pain of the past control your future. And I think that's such a gift from a faith perspective to find that.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Forgiveness, I believe, is for the person doing the forgiving.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

I I agree.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Yeah, it I think it is, but I think it's the precursor to reconciliation. If you can't forgive someone, you can't find your way back into relationship with them. But yet you can forgive and you might not be able to reconcile. Um, it might take a while for you, or it might be the other person who is unwilling to be so to do so. But to be in the position that you're open to that, I think frees you to live again.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yes, I I think it can lead to reconciliation, but reconciliation requires both parties. And like you're saying, we can't always control the other party.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

No, no, we can't at all.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

And but you can free yourself of all the pain.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Um, of unforgiveness, which which does cause pain. In fact, it affects our hearts. It's been shown through a study that so there's something called myocardial perfusion, which is the the blood flow rate around your heart, and anger will restrict that. So unforgiveness has been shown that um if you are unforgiving, you have a poor blood flow rate around your heart. But if you go through forgiveness therapy, it improves.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

I can imagine it would. I mean, to care to carry the wounds of the past and to harbor such ill will towards others because of the pain you carry, it's a tremendous weight to bear in life. And that's why forgiveness is such an important concept for us all.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah, I think you you've made an incredible point about them being different and sometimes us relating every sort of word together because they're they're like in the same sort of field, they're similar. And reconciliation is probably something you want to achieve through forgiveness. Uh but I think it's really good.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

I was just thinking that it's it's a feeling of being wronged. It begins. It begins, it sort of begins to be.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

You don't shut that out. You know rationally that you've been wrong, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 17:37

And I think what's interesting is maybe on the other side, they the other person might not have felt that you were wronged. So maybe they if you are the even the forgiveness aspect of it might not make sense to both parties. One party might feel like forgiveness is necessary while the other one thinks this is something normal. It it like in every situation would be unique in that sense. So that whole perspective of maybe you know the concept of forgiving yourself or just figuring out a way of freeing yourself from the from the prison is just so so important that it's it's really about you as the individual and the benefits are are really to you, not to the other party necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Even though the wrongness could could go both ways.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yes. Um it can begin. What do you think about the psychological the phase that forgiveness is a decision?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

I think that's a that's a really important thing. Um when you feel you're wronged, there's essentially two options I see from an Islamic perspective. Uh one would be justice, uh that you achieve equality in some respects, some fairness is achieved, so that you don't even need forgiveness at that point because you've been whole. Originally you were wronged, and now you can be made whole through justice. And the other is forgiveness, which in faith we always believe is the higher, is the greater thing. Because again, if we're made in God's image, then God's forgiveness and mercy overwhelms his wrath. And we want to be like him. Yes, as he is our creator. Uh, he made us in his image. So that's the greater path by which to go by. Um, because justice would claim you're wrong, but wouldn't free you from from the the difficulty that you're going through. Um you might you might feel okay for a little while, um, but forgiving yourself, forgiving the other person is going to bring understanding we're all human, we all make mistakes, and an opportunity to grow, and you might not understand their perspective better. There's so much to achieve in forgiveness that you can't have injustice. Um, but that that's a decision. You have to make a decision about what you want.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yes. Yes. Um once, you know, in psychology, once you make the decision to forgive, and then you move into what's called the work phase. So one part of the work phase is to try to understand the humanity of the the one who offended you. And you could do that by trying to, I mean, if you know them, you could say, what did how did they grow up? Or what was their perspective? You know, what would they have said about the situation? What is it that they want? Okay, they want well-being for themselves, they want to be happy. And recognizing all of that humanity is a part of it that will help and can be very difficult for people to do, to step into that person's you know, shoes or to see them with kindness. But there's another possible thing that you can do in the work phase, which you just made me think of. Um, and it's called bearing the pain. And I'm gonna give an example within couples therapy. It has to do with something called repair attempts. So when couples fight, and this will apply to any two people that fight within a household, okay? When two people fight, they tend to fight in the same exact way over and over and over again. And the subjects will change, but it's the same process. Like person A will start like this, and then person B does this, and then person A feels this and then does this, and they go back and forth in the same exact way, and it's called the negative cycle. So once a couple recognizes the negative cycle and what it is, then I will encourage them to do what's called repair attempts. So they're in the negative cycle, they want to do it the same way as always. But then one of them will break it either with a funny, or you know, they'll touch them, or they'll make a joke, or they'll be like, oh come on, let's stop. Or, you know, it's it's the a small repair attempt.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

They recognize that they're in that cycle.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

They recognize they're in a cycle. They have the courage to make the repair attempt. The other person. Person has to have the courage to accept it. Um in happy couples a repair attempt will be made and the other one will accept. In unhappy couples, there will be a repair attempt and the other one will reject it, or there won't even be a repair attempt like that. So I'm thinking of that in terms of um bearing the pain as part of breaking a cycle with with forgiveness, because it takes pain on both sides.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Don't you think people sometimes want to avoid the pain um by trying to forget rather than forgive? I don't know if you encounter that or any of you encounter it, but it's kind of it seems to be the shortcut to get to the place you want to be. So you just stop it and think I don't need to forgive if I can just not think about it. It has no power over me. Minimize it, maybe it's not minimize. Intellectualize it in some way. Yes, yeah. Excuse it. Yeah, excuse me. But if still you bear the wounds and you're not willing to go to that place where you're willing to bear the pain that that really did hurt, I was wronged. Um and I and it still impacts me to this day, and wrestling with what that means.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

And perhaps that's why it shows up in your other relationships. When you haven't forgiven the offender, now you're gonna be more angry towards other people in your life.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

I think in in so far as faith goes, I think there's a very crucial aspect. I mean speaking, obviously in in within psychology, there's going to be there's going to be um one a certain nucleus. Um within faith is going to be a different different nucleus. Um, those are obviously not going to be mutually exclusive, as you say. They um they complement one one another intensely. Um the stories of faith that we we we read constantly. I mean, uh I believe the earliest story in all of literature of faith is the story of Joseph and his brothers.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Oh wow, that's a wonderful story. I'm sorry. I apologize. Do you want to tell listeners the whole story? Because I think it's really Okay, briefly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Well, so you you know, um briefly the story is that uh Joseph is the um oldest son of the uh of the originally intended wife, only wife of Jacob, and for which reason he uh he Jacob favors him. He was born after Rachel was uh childless for many years, and Jacob showed a favoritism to Joseph, which didn't bear well on the rest of the other brothers who were his half-brothers. And they ended up, after a whole uh uh spiral of of of events, ended up um s throwing him in a pit and and then afterwards he was sold as a slave to pit and they abandoned him. And they abandoned him. And uh well, actually, no, they they didn't they abandoned him in the beginning, and then they got together and said, well, what use is it that he should just die in the pit? Let's sell him and get some money for him. That's how low it got.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

And you know, he ended up going uh being sold to a slave in Egypt, and um he was sold into the house of the uh um the the overseer of the kitchens of Pharaoh, and he worked his way up in the estate of this individual who Potiphar was a very wealthy man, and um he became the manager of his entire estate until one day uh there was an accus uh the wife of uh Potiphar took a liking to him, and when no one was in the house, uh she approached him in a very strong manner and he fled, and then she turned it round on him that he had uh wanted to seduce her, for which his master threw him again into Joseph, into a jail where he spent the next twelve years. And only through a very fascinating sequence of events, uh by interpreting a dream of another two inmates that were there that were workers for Pharaoh, he was seen as a good interpreter of dreams, and when Pharaoh had a peculiar dream, he was uh brought out and made to stand in front of Pharaoh. He deciphered the dreams exactly as Pharaoh had expected it. It it sounded exactly right, and he on the spot appointed him as the second to the king as the viceroy in Egypt. As the story went, uh there were the the prescription of the dream was that there was going to be seven years of great plenty in Egypt, and then seven years of famine. The famine struck, and the famine was a regional one, and Israel obviously was was included in that, so the land of Canaan as it was, and uh Jacob sent his sons to go down to Egypt to fetch food because Joseph had instructed and made the uh made the provisions for these seven years of famine, and he had the the the uh jurisdiction over all the food in Egypt. And they came down and Joseph disguised himself. They had no idea he was even still alive. Joseph disguised himself, he summoned them to him and made an entire conspiracy and basically that uh you know they were that he they had to bring their other brother down and then made a conspiracy that he was uh that they had stolen something of his, for which reason he put them in the corner of uh that his personal younger brother, his his full brother, uh, would be held hostage by him uh on under an accusation of stealing his his cup, his goblet, and the rest can go free. And he put them in that corn in that place to see whether they would risk themselves to free their brother. Uh in other words, if they had come round the action that they had done to him. And at that moment, uh when Judah, the Yehuda, the brother, went and put himself out there that he was going to do anything and everything to get his brother back, then Joseph revealed himself and said, I am Joseph. The moment after that, that I mean that that's the the the synopsis of the story, but it's a very dramatic and deeply uh a deeply painful story on many levels. The moment, though, that is of the moment of which is the the most intense moment possibly of the entire story is after Jacob's death. And here the brothers are Jacob eventually came over to Egypt, he was given first-class treatment, but the brothers were wary that after Jacob's death, that now will be the time that Joseph would begin to let out what on them what they had done to him. Jacob Revenge. Pardon? Revenge. Revenge. And the consequences now withheld until mother died. It was suppressed until for the honor of the old man, and now you know it's it's going to come out in one way or another. Um they um came to Joseph and um made a story which wasn't true. They said that our father had asked before he died, please I we beg of you to forgive our the the the sin that we did unto you. And Joseph in the verse took offense. And he said he understood straight away that this was not something his father would have said, and he didn't understand. He the verse has come across and saying that he didn't understand what they wanted from him. And the Hebrew is that he tells them, Lo atem shlaktem ostiheno, you did not send me here. Kiho elokim, it was God that sent me here, and he put me here to become a uh a manager of Pharaoh's entire estate and to save the entire region from disaster, from hunger. That is the I believe the earliest in I don't think there is a story of of forgiveness as early as that in history. Which is very interesting that even in biblical text, the first story of forgiveness is interpersonal forgiveness. There is no story of God forgiving before there's a story of people forgiving each other.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Forgiveness is interpersonal. It is.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

So in faith, we have there's the there's the pyramid. Um there are the two sides of the you know, the interpersonal tension possibly. But then there is, and this comes back to what I said before, that there is the the top of the pyramid. There is a there's going to be a place where it's not you that did it. In Joseph's case, he he understood clearly that regardless of why he had to suffer, that was a that was put aside. It wasn't you that did it. It were you were you were an agent for something that for some reason I had to go through. That's but my my my question, the question of all questions uh to my creator. But you you were you were you were agents to do it. Now that doesn't mean uh you might bring up the justification, that's not justifying it. They were not justified at all for what they did. But how the here it's a demonstration Joseph was speaking his own heart out to them. This is how I see it. And he saw it that way so deeply that he didn't understand that what they wanted from him, even.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

And um that's really the the power of faith, the the the power of belief and recognizing that uh that you're placed somewhere to do something, uh especially in his case, which was to do so much good uh that not even being able to comprehend the need to forgive, whereas they were so concerned about forgiveness. It's such an individual.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

And yes, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

I was just gonna say that's such a great story because what's interesting about the story of Joseph is that there are texts where it seems God is so present and in communication with a person. Where with Joseph it isn't presented that way. But yet there's a deep trust within Joseph that God is present, and that that culmination point of the story is one of those lines where you know what they intended for evil, God used for good.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

That's fascinating. There is no communication of God to Jesus in that whole time.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yes, but yet there's that that faith, that trust that somehow this will work out in some way. Even though you don't understand at the time. And I and from a faith perspective, I wonder if if that's not such a such a big part of what forgiveness is, that it's not just the healing of the memory, but it's a trust that when things like this happen and we bear the pain and the suffering, that somehow God can help us pick up the pieces and use that in ways that we did not imagine or envision before.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

And that is the last phase of forgiveness therapy within psychology. It's called the deepening. So the first phase is understanding all of the pain and recognizing the pain. The second is the decision, like we talked about. Then there's the work. And um, the last phase is the deepening. And as part of that phase, you try to understand the bigger picture or try to understand the meaning, like what we're talking about, or maybe even create in your mind a possible narrative for why this makes sense or why, you know, what's good about all of this.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

That's that's what you mean by deepening, in other words, within the individual. Yes. Possibly divorced of the other individual who perpetrator. That's very Would you mind another story? Because there is a biblical story.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Another story, yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Well, the uh it's that the deepening, just I mean, I've never termed it that way. That's that's your that's that's the professional uh term for it. But um, I mean the story I would immediately associate with that is is is is a a breathtaking story, which is um with King David, if you may recall. Um King David suffered a lot, and the possibly the lowest point of his life was when uh his son Afshalom was uh made a rebellion against him. Um he was a very popular guy, and uh, you know, he he convinced m much of the majority of the people that you know the time of the of the old man has has is finished, and you know, um I'll do it much better for you. And the the scene in the Book of Kings, the scene is uh is taken, is shot, where King David is running away on foot from his own son. And out comes a teacher of his, a teacher called Shimmy Ben Gera, Shimmy the son of Gera. And this teacher of his was was a a great scholar uh but uh but had for s for whatever reason sided with Avshalom with the son and uh had not liked David. And this teacher of his came out and started to bitterly curse King David, throw things at him, you know, just just insult him in the in the lowest of ways. King David was running with his with his men, and uh, you know, and um his general um King David was a king, and in those days for sure, if you that such a such speech to a king will warranted capital punishment, and his general said, Let me let me finish him off. And King David said, I instruct you not to touch him. And he says, God told him to curse. Now God had never told him to curse. The interesting and and mean yeah, you know, the general was was beside himself. You know, he couldn't he he he just couldn't understand it. And the fascinating thing was, you know, King David made off, and at the end of his life, in his will to son King Solomon, David instructs instructs him to you know uh organize it that this individual, Shimmy Ben Gera, uh receive his due his due punishment, which he did.

unknown 36:28

Oh, at the end.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

At the end. In his in his in his last will and testament, uh, King David had a list of people whom he hadn't finished business with, both for the good and for the bad, and he told his son Solomon to do it uh and how. And he was supposed to basically uh you know uh scrutinize this man who had you know who had uh had shown this uh sentiment to him uh because he was a danger, obviously, he was a danger to his to Solomon as well, and King Solomon you know put him under surveillance and found you know uh that he he wasn't a faithful citizen at all and and basically had him had him killed but in a justified way, but you know, he he he dealt with him. This is how it was. Now what was was uh the analysis of the story, which uh again has been you know done throughout the generations, was you brought up justice versus uh forgiveness. The God told him to curse was David's feeling at the time. David had justified to himself the store the the the whole thing, and had taken the whole rebellion of his son of Shalom as a uh an atonement, as a as a sort of uh a reconciliation, if you want, with God for the story of Bathsheba, the story of uh that he had with for his own sin. And therefore, he was he that was his rationale for it, he and he was ready at that moment to sponge up whatever it was. He had he had made peace with the he had made peace with the fact that he had to go through this, and whatever it was at that time that he had to go through, he was he was ready for it. And if that would have meant, you know, that his teacher of all people would come, and when he's running away on foot from his own child, that this is should you know, to pour salt on the wounds, he was he was gonna take it, he wasn't gonna do anything. Then the law is the law, you know, and you can you cannot uh you do have especially a person who is a political leader, has to, the law doesn't fall away. But the law, he was not going to administer the law with the passion of revenge. He was gonna wait. And he was gonna wait, and he and he waited it out to the end of his life, and then he said, Well, okay, then now now with now that I have fully um uh accepted that that was something that was not him, as we said before. It was God that told him to curse. And that that's that that has made me somehow um stronger, that's made me somehow more connected with my own soul, with with God. Okay, now that we've now that that's been shelved, okay, then we need to, we need to business does need to be taken care of, you know, justice does need to be done. So um I you know I think that that the that that that story, again, as you say, it's the it's the deepening. It's um it's it's bringing out a way that this experience has not been in vain. This experience has just not been just to hurt me. On the contrary, I have to take every experience and and grow from it and become stronger from it, learn from it, and perhaps help other people from it. In whichever way we take it, whether it is atonement, whether it is strength, whether it is, you know, as they say, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Um whenever way we take it, it's not a it's not a um that doesn't it's not a contradiction to, you know, the rules are the rules, and the rules have to be kept. Rules don't fall away, justice doesn't fall away because of forgiveness or because of righteousness. Um we we we speak about many verses hand in hand, righteousness and justice both have to be done together. So but if you sometimes not simultaneously, because simultaneously it means that the forgiveness hasn't happened. So that's that's the uh if you talk about deepening, I think that's a most powerful story.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

Trevor Burrus Well, it it raises a couple issues as I think about it. One is the connection between forgiveness and consequences. You know, to forgive mean is uh are the consequences then exempt, they're gone. Um and if there are consequences, maybe how we approach those consequences shows whether we've truly forgiven or not. You know, because we can as you were talking, I think there are times when there are consequences for an individual, and this is a bit of the Schadenfreude, right? The at somebody else's struggle and um pain, we feel great joy because of perhaps because of what they've done to us. Yeah. Uh but if you're forgiven, that's not what you feel. I was thinking about raising children. Um I have two wonderful kids, grown and gone now. Uh but when they were being raised, there were times they did things that were wrong. They'd say they're sorry, I'd forgive them. And of course the question would come, does that mean I'm not grounded?

unknown 41:25

No.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

You're still grounded. So that's part of the lesson of life of their growth and thinking about what they've done as part of the consequences. It doesn't mean I didn't forgive them.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

I'm not going to hold them against them, and I don't carry wounds. Um but yet their consequences were important as for their learning and development. To know there are consequences to our actions, even though someone can forgive us. But that wouldn't be revenge, though. No, not revenge to the remote.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

That's a completely different concept, right? This was even more care and concern for the it's almost like the whole fool me once, you know, shame on me. Yeah. Or sorry, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. So you're you're trying to make sure the second time the fooling doesn't happen. So they know there's value to it. So you don't want to condone it, but there's also recognition of the value of it. Uh yeah, I think that's that's incredibly important, that they are separate things that have their own place and and and everything has value there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Forgiveness isn't necessarily condoning.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

No. It's necessarily not. Yeah, it is not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

That would lead to the pain of resentment if you just overlook injustices, overlook, overlook. That's very different.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Sure. We well, I mean, on Yom Kippur and Judaism, we stand there listing off all the common sins in public in plural. Um and it's quite a list. All the common things are. And mostly, the vast majority of them are interpersonal. Not between man and God, but but interpersonal sins. And we we lay it all out, we lay it all bare. I mean, I mean there's a text for it. And of course it's not condoning. We s we say that but but but our bond we we we we is is is deeper, isn't it? And even though we may have we even though we may have done all this, but uh is you know, isn't our our bond is unbreakable. And when that bond is laid bare then then the iniquity or the then the the damage um the damage does f can fall away. I think it's the the the it's one of the great it's it's a tremendously deep um you know it's a faith concept that the damage that evil is not eternal. It has an end, it has it has a limit. Um and that's why I think faith is so powerful within the forgiveness process, is because after all. Said and done, you know that there's something greater, that there's something greater within that other person, there's something greater between both, that there's a greater picture. If there isn't a greater picture, then again we go back to why should I let it go. So maybe maybe a greater picture for me, you know, my own health. Yeah. Um that's definitely one route. Uh especially in the faith route, it's it's there is a greater picture altogether.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

I think we we were speaking about that earlier, about how the value of forgiveness is also very much towards you more so than the other individual. So condoning it is like, you know, saying that the other person's behavior is what the primary concern is, that might not even matter as much when your own health and your your own interpersonal relationship or your own betterment, your own personal development is is dependent upon you forgiving. Um so while there's obviously a concern that, okay, you've been wrong and you want some sort of justice, but there there's a greater, there's something greater than that. And forgiveness is just so powerful. Uh there's so much more to it.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

I could start with um recognizing the health benefits. When folks start forgiveness therapy, it can be very hard to actually empathize with the offender. And psychology has found that it's easier for um patients to start to think about it cognitively, not emotionally in the beginning, meaning they they think with a certain part of the brain that is not emotional about the offender in a way that makes them more human. The emotional part comes later. You you have to decide and begin this process and begin the action of forgiveness, like I was saying, withholding the resentment response of attacking or withdrawing, treating them to willful acts of benevolence. Sometimes that comes later. They're called moral gifts. A moral gift could even be a smile.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah, in Islam, uh the the Holy Prophet has said that uh giving a smile to someone is an act of charity, and charity is an incredible, like in terms of the rewards and blessings related to charity. But even in a moment where you're down and you see someone smile, it could light up your day. And it's such an incredible powerful concept that we don't always necessarily recognize. So it's it's incredible how much science and and psychology is gonna match up with faith, uh, because it's it's it's about humanity, it's about us as individuals.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Thank you. I I'd like to thank the three of you for coming today as guests. Uh, I don't know if you'd like to add anything else to conclude the show.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Thank you. I mean, it's uh people like you who bring these things to the public sphere. And we can only say that we could do how much more we could do with with media and uh with you know with with with public discussion such as these all the more. So it's uh a great credit to you. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

It was a privilege and a delight, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you for this topic.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

The topic was incredibly important. I think if we want to flourish in life, it's impossible without the gift of forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Agreed.

unknown 47:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

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