Imposter Syndrome: with Lauren Todd

The esteemed author and poet Maya Angelou once said: “I have written eleven books, but each time I think, uh oh, they’re going to find out now. I’ve run a game on everybody , and they’re going to find me out.” Imposter Syndrome is when you feel like a phony, as if you are fooling others, and are afraid of being somehow exposed as someone who doesn’t really know what they are doing or talking about. Individuals with imposter syndrome have trouble attributing their success to their own achievement and are likely to procrastinate out of anxiety or overwork. Learn more about traits of those with Imposter Syndrome through my conversation with guest Lauren Todd. Lauren Todd, MS, is trained in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) with a humanistic flair. She has worked with individuals across the life span at New York Presbyterian Hospital, McLean Hospital, and Integrated Care for the Underserved of Northeastern New Jersey. Lauren is in her fifth year of PhD studies of psychology at Fairleigh Dickinson University and her primary areas of interest are eating disorders, autism spectrum disorder, and life transitions, particularly among children and adolescents. To learn more about Imposter Syndrome begin with Sakulku and Alexander’s 2011 article in the International Journal of Behavioral Science entitled “The Imposter Phenomenon.” If you enjoyed this episode and others, there are a few ways that you can show your support:1) order a book from PsychologyAmerica.com where there is a selection of books I’ve personally chosen (your order will go seamlessly through to Amazon.com) 2), leave an awesome rating on iTunes or 3) press subscribe to continue to receive new episodes. Do you have a friend who is going through a rough time that you would like to cheer up? Some people will truly feel loved with small and thoughtful gifts. Consider the gift of my children’s book entitled: “There’s Always Hope: a Story About Overcoming." It can be found on PsychologyAmerica.com, Amazon.com or at Sparta Books. 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_01 0:04

To love, learn, to laugh, to love, to be, love, to see beauty, to understand, to bring right to the things that matter most.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

This is Psychology America with Dr. Alexandra. Welcome to my show. For every life stage, we have questions. Let's enhance our lives together as we explore the things that matter most. Lauren, you had a college experience you were going to share. I did.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

When I first started college, over the summer, we were given this assignment where we had to read a book and write a little reflection paper on it. And then during our orientation, we had to sit down with a professor, or even the president of the university was in some of the book groups, as well as 10 to 12 of our classmates and discuss any themes, things that came up. And it was supposed to be like the first college experience, one where we're really starting to share our intellectual knowledge and get to know one another and really prove what we're worth. And during that first initial book session, as I was sitting there, I was listening to my peers talk and say all these wonderful, eloquent, eloquent things. And all I could think in my head was, I am not supposed to be here. They made a mistake letting me into college. I sought something totally different in the book. And I couldn't shake that feeling. And I continued to have that feeling until years later when I talked to my friends about it and found that everyone felt the same way at that moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

So you carried on. I carried on. Even with that feeling. So that feeling continued into other classes too, but particularly at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Particularly at the beginning. Once I found my place in the college, I picked a major, I knew what I was doing, it started to fall into place. But there were a couple of weeks there where I was pretty certain that they had made a mistake in admitting me to the university.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

And today we're talking about the imposter syndrome. And I wonder if you think that that was an example of the imposter syndrome or not that experience. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

I think that, or well, what we've found is that imposter syndrome is a feeling that you're a fraud and fearing being found out, doubting one's abilities and being concerned that others are going to find out that you've been faking it all along. And in that moment, I think I met criteria for the imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah, it's it's a feeling of phoniness or intellectual phoniness and a fear that you're going to be found out.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Exactly. People wonder if that happens more to women than to men. When I've mentioned this podcast coming up, they've asked me that question.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

I think that that's one of the most common conceptions about the imposter syndrome. And some earlier research did demonstrate that that was the case, that women did experience imposter syndrome at higher rates than men. However, more recent research has also demonstrated that individuals of any gender, of any age group can fall victim to this syndrome. It's about equal then.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

It's about equal, which is so much different than what was originally anticipated and different than what people expect when they first hear about imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

What's it like for people that have that? How do they behave?

SPEAKER_01 3:45

So they've they can behave in any number of ways. Um some people they take on extra tasks as a way to try to prove to themselves and others that they're they're worthy of being there. Um other people will be incredibly perfectionistic, double checking all of their work, making sure that they're saying everything perfectly so that any of their inner flaws aren't viewed by other people. Um, and other people can even act out and try to bring other people down almost as a way to point out other people's flaws so that other people don't recognize their own flaws. Oh. Not not so nice and not quite as common, but something that we do see pop up from time to time.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, when I looked at it, I felt bad for those with imposter syndrome or those that are really driven by it, because it seems a lot of it is driven by fear.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Mm-hmm. Yeah, specifically, there could be three types of fear. There could be fear of evaluation, fear of not continuing an initial success, or fear of not being as capable as other people, as peers, as coworkers. It is largely driven by fear.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

And they work really, really hard more than what's necessary for a task. They overwork, not necessary, but they're so afraid that they'll be found out that they want to keep it up.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Exactly. And I think that that's where the real clinical piece comes in because everyone has these feelings from time to time during during transitions, during a new job, um, during a new situation. It's common to feel that way. But when your behaviors start to be dictated by this fear of being found out, then that's when it starts to be really maladaptive.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah. I also read that they are um, those with imposter syndrome are really into impression management. So they very much, you know, they'll even hide mistakes. They're very afraid. Well, their social image is super important to them. They want to look good.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Absolutely. And I think that that's even more pertinent today than maybe 20 years ago because of social media from LinkedIn or Facebook or Instagram. People want to put their best image forward and hide anything that would demonstrate any flaws or vulnerabilities.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

It reminded me a lot of Carol Dweck's work uh on the fixed versus growth mindset. There has to be overlap here. Tell me more about that. What were you thinking? Well, um, there was one study that she did, well, herself and Lisa Blackwell together, they studied seventh graders, and they had all of them take a math test, and then a portion of them, they were they were given what's called fixed mindset compliments. And they said, Oh, you did great, you must be really smart. And then another portion, they were given what's called growth mindset compliments. Like, oh, you did really great, you must have worked hard. Then all of them were given a math test where they were told that they failed it. And then when they took the test again, the kids that were given the fixed mindset compliment, their performance went down and they were uh much more likely to lie about their performance. Whereas the growth mindset compliment kids, their performance didn't go down. And because they had the mentality that I can just try hard and if I screw up, it's okay because it's all about effort rather than the fixed mindset that either you you're intelligent or you're not.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

I had never connected imposter syndrome with her work before, but you bring up such a good point. And uh as you were even saying that, one thing that I was struck by is that kids were lying and hiding their flaws in you know subsequent tests or evaluations, and it really demonstrates how this syndrome can take hold in such a way that people are even behaving in ways that aren't they're not comfortable with.

unknown 8:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Well, um, some of the research I did on it, I it had found a link. Well, I think what's the main woman who who Pauline Clantz? Pauline Clantz. Yes. She was proposing that some of it was rooted in family of origin messages. And particularly, I think someone studied it and they found it particularly to be connected to fathers. And um, as I was thinking about this podcast, I was thinking about myself as as you were too, I'm sure. Like, do have I done this? Do I have this? And I mentioned to you that I think I do have it in tennis. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Well, um, even though I have won five local tournaments in the last three years and have come in second in three of them, I always feel like it's an accident.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Even though there is such evidence to suggest otherwise, and I know that we've had this conversation before as well. And I imagine you've had this conversation with other people, it's like that voice that you just can't shut up in the back of your mind that tells you that it's an accident, there's a flaw, there's there was some stroke of chance over all of these years that contributed to your success.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

It it most definitely feels that way. And I think because I'm also a runner, when you run a race, it's really clear, like, oh, I won by five feet. And it You can measure it, yeah. Yes. But with tennis, there's so many nuances. And if I win in a scrappy kind of way, like whatever, like drop shots, or if it feels scrappy, then somehow it feels like um I think it's the imposter syndrome. I feel like I didn't deserve that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

And then I I wonder how that affects your subsequent performances too. I mean, are you even able to enjoy the game if you have that in your head the whole time?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

I totally enjoy it, but I think my performance fluctuates dramatically when um when it kicks in, this feeling of being an imposter and that I'm really not that good and it's an accident. It really feels like an accident. And as I was thinking about this just yesterday and talking about it with my boyfriend, um I said, but why is this only happening with tennis? It doesn't happen with other parts of my life, it just doesn't make sense. Why, why does tennis It's a good question? And he had a great idea. And we were just talking about the link with parents and with fathers, and I was like, but my father's not demanding. And then I remembered, oh my goodness. My father was an Olympic athlete in saber fencing. So that that makes a little bit more sense when we think about it in that context. When it when it came to sports, uh-huh, he set very, very high standards. His standards were to become a world-class athlete. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

So that's something that you hold extra important to yourself, maybe that you value more than other things.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Well, I I really that's not my goal in life, but obviously it's it's in there. Yeah. You know, causing maladaptive thoughts, as you say. Yes within myself when I'm on the tennis court. Yeah. So as I was preparing for this, I read about Tom Hanks that um he has a quote that he told Terry Gross of NPR, and he said this. No matter what we've done, there comes a point where you think, How did I get here? When are they going to discover that I am in fact a fraud and take everything away from me? So if Tom if Tom Hanks is thinking that, what hope do the rest of us have? Yeah, that was only two years ago, you know, after he's made all these wonderful movies. After all of the undeniable success that he's had. Right. Philadelphia, Catch Me If You Can, Forrest Gump. Yes. Sully. Yeah. Catch Me If You Can with uh Leonardo DiCaprio. So he was playing Frank Abignale Jr. And that was a true imposter.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, not quite the same imposter syndrome that we're talking about today. That was remarkable. And I don't think he felt bad about it.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

No, he didn't have the same degree of uh low self-esteem or concern about being found out that I think the rest of us might struggle with.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

And for those that didn't watch it, uh, this was a man who in his late teens and early 20s faked it as an attorney, a doctor, a pilot, and he forged checks as well. And then later worked for the FBI. He worked for the good guys to help them, right? I also was thinking about in my twenties, Lauren, I think that I thought I knew everything. But I but deep down, of course, I knew I didn't. And I think I put pressure on myself to appear as if I knew everything. It's one of those things you don't realize until you're older and more mature and you grow. And I think that in time I developed a very healthy intellectual humility. And that was very freeing. Have you ever experienced that?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Absolutely. I I think that one thing that I find important to remember is that I don't know everything, and it's okay that I don't know everything. It's not expected that I know everything. If I am learning something new, it it's not a flaw of my character if I'm not able to immediately understand the information presented to me. If I have to take an extra couple of minutes to reread something, I think it's humbling to remember that I'm And healthy. And healthy. That I that's the way that people are. It not all of us are natural geniuses. We can't pick up everything on the first go-around.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

And I think even within our field of psychology, recognizing just within this one field, there's so much, right? And there's so much I know that there's so much that I don't know. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

And I know that we're not the only ones. And one of the ways that I've found is most helpful in combating imposter syndrome is to talk to mentors, talk with advisors. And in doing so, I found that other people have these same feelings. Even the best professors, the best mentors that I've worked with have felt this way. Not not everyone is an expert in every topic in psychology. Well, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

That I don't think there's anyone that could be, it's just too broad. Yeah. So um that would be helpful. And plus within our field, we respect the scientific method, and that is just a beautiful thing, just just knowing the slow and deliberate way that science adds new information, that truth, what we think is the truth, can change with new knowledge. And it makes you more humble in a good way.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Absolutely. That's a very good point.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

One of my favorite figures is Isaac Newton. And he said, But if I have seen further, it's by standing on the shoulders of giants. Which is a nice thing to remember.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

I like that quote.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yeah. So what advice can you give to people that are feeling imposter syndrome, Lauren?

SPEAKER_01 15:54

I think the first and foremost thing is to just recognize it, to name it as imposter syndrome, and to normalize those feelings, reminding yourself that other people find find themselves feeling the same way. Um, also remembering what you're good at if there is something that you're especially excelling in, or recognizing your own accomplishments so that you're able to keep some of those more unhelpful thoughts in check. Um, as I said before, talking to a trusted advisor or a mentor, someone who's been through it who could help you to challenge some of those thoughts too. And finally, I I honestly think it's really helpful to get off social media sometimes to stop comparing yourself. Don't look at other people's LinkedIn profiles if you're feeling especially vulnerable. There's just no good that will necessarily come out of that.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I think that studies have found that in general it makes people unhappy. Oh, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

In multiple ways. And I think that imposter syndrome is just one of them.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

It's it's basically that fear of missing out. And it has to do with socially, it we're such social creatures that um even if we're at a fabulous place in New Jersey and our friends are at a fabulous place in Colorado, we are not there.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

And we're afraid of being left out.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah. And the same thing I think can apply to imposter syndrome. If you look and find that someone has had some position at a pretentious hospital or something like that, you start to ignore your own, you know, positive aspects of your own CV or your own experience, and you just focus on what they had that you don't have.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Right. So, but I don't know if people are gonna just get off some social media. Oh, I don't think they have social media. I definitely don't think so. Yeah. I think it's just one thing that's helpful to keep in check. Do you think impostors um can admit that they have imposter syndrome at that stage? I think some can.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

I think others have a more difficult time. Um I think that a lot of people will hear about imposter syndrome for the first time and almost a light bulb goes off in their head thinking, oh, this is what I've been dealing with all along. But I think for other people it's hard to recognize it as imposter syndrome, and it has such a hold on their on their thinking that they even find themselves going one step further and saying, No, it's not imposter syndrome. I really don't belong in this situation. Aaron Powell Do you have any friends that ever admitted it to you? I do. I have um one friend actually, which reminds me of the social media example I was describing. Um, right before he was supposed to start his first day of his medical residency. He looked up all of his co-residents on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on all of these different websites and compared his past accomplishments and achievements with theirs. And when he mentioned that to me, I first asked him, you know, did you feel good after that event? And he very quickly said no, he was feeling a lot worse. And I I pointed out that that might be imposter syndrome taking place because from an outsider, I was as an outsider, I was able to recognize all of the things he had going for him, all of the reasons that he deserved as much of his as his co-residence to be in that same situation.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

That's a good example. You just made me remember something from my life that brought out imposter feelings. Uh-huh. And um, and there is a theme to this, and part of it is when you're at the beginning stages of any career or new job or new college, there is a stage of establishing your competence where um there are life cycle stages for career as well, right? And I think that this happens a lot during these beginning stages. So when um with my undergraduate, which was Duke, they usually they accept a certain amount of of people, and then they expect a certain percentage of those to decline, and a certain percentage to accept. Well, in my entering class, too many people accepted. Oh no. And then they had a problem. Uh-huh. And they sent out a letter, and I got this letter, and they said, A lot of your classmates took a year off before coming into school. And this one went to Africa and studied rhinoceros. And there were all these examples of these remarkable years off that people took. Oh gosh. And it finished with a request like, would you consider taking a year off? Oh. What did you say? I didn't respond. It I I think it was a letter that a lot of us got.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

But it brought out feelings like, oh, am I not good enough to be here? Like, do they want me to be the one to wait? Like, did all of us get this letter, or did some of us get this letter?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah, and there's no way to tell. And I think that that's I think that the uncertainty is a lot of the time what drives imposter syndrome and probably your feelings in that moment. It may have been.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Any other advice you would like to give listeners who think they might have imposter syndrome?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Just know that you're not alone. I think that that is one of the most helpful things, um, recognizing that everyone goes through this at some point or another. But if you are really feeling over and over again that you're inadequate and you find yourself making a lot of extra steps to um, you know, combat these feelings, talk to someone about it. Um, I I don't think that there's any shame in admitting some of these feelings to someone that you trust.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Lauren, thank you for coming on to Psychology America. Thank you for having me, Alexandra. If you enjoyed this episode and others, there are a few ways that you can show your support. Order a book from PsychologyAmerica.com where there's a selection of books I've personally chosen, including the one I mentioned in today's podcast by Carol Dweck, Mindset. Leave an awesome rating on iTunes, or press subscribe to continue receiving new episodes. Do you have a friend who's going through a rough time that you would like to cheer up? Some people will truly feel loved with small and thoughtful gifts. Consider the gift of my children's book entitled There's Always Hope: a story about overcoming. It can be found on Psychologyamerica.com, Amazon.com, or at SpartaBooks.