Navigating Parenting Challenges with Compassion

This episode was simultaneously recorded by video which can be found on LinkedIn or YouTube (Alexandra Miller Clark).  In this episode, we explore themes of compassion, the importance of self-management in parenting and nervous system regulation.  Dr. Nicole Dolan also discusses her forthcoming memoir, "The Art of Chaos," which reflects on her experiences as a mother and therapist.  Dr. Nicole Dolan is a licensed psychotherapist and the Founder of Sacred Paths non-profit group in California. 

At the start of the show, I share about a Japanese hero, Sempo Sugihara, and dedicate the show to the National Liberty Museum in Philadelphia.

Conscious Parenting and Self-Management  05:39

Nervous System Regulation and Breathwork  09:02

Exploring Triggers and Emotional Responses  11:36

The Role of the Body in Therapy  15:46

Understanding Split Off Parts of Self  20:18

Reintegration of Trauma and Healing  26:08

The Art of Chaos: A Memoir  35:29

Surviving vs. Thriving in Parenting - last

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:04

To love, learn, to laugh, to love, to be, love, to see beauty, to understand, to bring right to the things that matter most. This is Psychology America with Dr. Alexandra. Welcome to my show. For every life stage, we have questions. Let's enhance our lives together as we explore the things that matter most.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Alright. Nice to see all of you again, even though I don't see you. I am so happy to be back on the show. This is Psychology America with Dr. Alexandra. I have my guest, Dr. Nicole Dolan. Welcome. Thank you so much. And before we begin, I always start each podcast episode with uh dedicating it to a nonprofit group. This time, I want to dedicate it to the National Liberty Museum in Philadelphia. I was just there while my son was doing a tour of the school in Philadelphia. It's a wonderful museum. It used to be called the National, it used to be called the Heroes Museum. And it really uh does feature a lot of heroes that have defended liberty. And I was particularly touched with um one piece that was about a Japanese hero, and I have a picture to show everyone. Let's see, you can see this. Yeah. So they are um so that's Senfo Sugi Hara. He was the Japanese consul in Lithuania in the summer of 1940, and he ignored instructions of his government, and he wrote out 6,000 visas to get the Jewish refugees out of Lithuania so they could escape Hitler and um but I think the thing that really touched me about this was the wife, also. Her name was Yukiko, and she also helped with the visas, but she would massage his hands every night so that he could get all of the visas done. And I just thought that was a beautiful example of small things with great love. So I am really happy to dedicate this show to the National Liberty Museum. Um, so let's begin. And Dr. Nicole, um there was a time in your life when you felt some judgment about tantruming children in the supermarket. And I know things are different, but I'm wondering if you if you could speak to that.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Sure. Yeah. So I don't know if I felt a lot of judgment in the sense of it was upsetting for me and I was judging parents, but I do know that I used to hold the belief, uh, you know, in psychology we talk a lot about is it nature or nurture, right? Um, and for me, I used to hold the belief that like absolutely 100% it's nurture, you know, if you see a child acting out or struggling in a certain way. Like I said, I I don't think I was really, you know, cruel or judgmental about it, but I just fully believed, you know, that when I became a parent, it would be different because it it's a it's up to the parents, you know, um to teach the child to respond in a certain way. And those beliefs, as I'm sure we'll get into, have certainly changed.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah. I I also remember those before I had children having that experience of like why don't they get their child in control? You know? Um, and I am definitely a lot more compassionate now, having had four and now eight as a stepmother. So we are speaking with Dr. Nicole Dolan, who is the author of the forthcoming memoir, The Art of Chaos. And you are a mother of three highly sensitive neurodivergent children. You're gonna write about that in your memoir, or you have written about that. It hasn't been published yet, it's coming, right? Um and you're the founder and clinical director of the Sacred Path Holistic Therapy. So thank you. Thank you for being with me today. And you had reached out last summer, and I thought that I get a lot of people reaching out to be on the podcast. Um I thought that the way that you reached out was so kind, it struck me. And I had told you at the time I'm not doing any podcast for this entire year while I'm serving as president of the New Jersey Psychological Association. And I thought about you later. I reached out, I don't know, maybe it was December, and I said, I'm gonna start up again. Uh, I don't know if you'd still like to be on the show, and you were interested.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, yeah. And and likewise, I felt like it was a really um it was a kind, very relational response and conversation that we had from my reach out. And um, my reach out actually came, I was reaching out to offer you a copy of my book. So I actually wasn't even asking to be on the show or anything, and then we kind of just went back and forth a little bit. You're like, I just got this position with the APA, and I'm like, oh my gosh, congratulations! And yeah, so I think we just wound up in communication a little bit, um really honoring what each other does in the world, and it seemed like a good fit to sit here together.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Yes, and I looked at your website and it was lovely, and um, and then actually I asked you, okay, I'm ready to read your manuscript in December, and you said, Well, now you can't because the publisher isn't letting me anymore. So this is new for me uh to host you on this show, not having read your stuff, uh, but I'm ready to just enjoy the adventure of our conversation. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think the thing having read about you, I think what I'm struck by is um I love the way you work with parents. So parents that might have children that do indeed act up or don't cooperate as expected. I really appreciate the way that you focus on how the parent manages themselves. And can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Sure, yeah. So I really love the work of Dr. Shafali, and she writes about and speaks about conscious parenting. And conscious parenting is taking the approach that, you know, your child is not giving you a hard time, your child is having a hard time, and whatever is difficult for you in that moment is more about you. So my work really went into exploring that further, and not necessarily by choice, but by becoming a mother of an autistic child. Um, my daughter's very high functioning. I know we don't use that word anymore technically, but I haven't found the right word to replace it. Um, but she's very, very intelligent and uh highly, highly verbal. Um, most of her challenges are actually uh nervous system dysregulation that show up behaviorally. So my journey into motherhood uh was quite challenging. And through that, I started kind of going on my own conscious parenting journey. Um, and I often ask the question in the world, I often ask, you know, when we learn something about like, okay, so if your child's having a tantrum, for instance, right? If your child's having a tantrum and something's coming up in you, well, that's about you. But I would always ask the question, well, what does that mean? Like I'm I'm um I'm a very embodied practitioner. Like I've had this, the things I teach and the things that I give to others, I have lived through. And so, um, so for me, it was like, okay, well, what does that, what does that mean? And and I went on the journey of really understanding what that means, you know, from the place of understanding when, you know, my daughter's having a meltdown and I'm getting activated, is it because of my own sensory system and what I've learned, you know, so far about my own sensory system? Or is it, you know, something from my past that's actually being activated in my body, right? So maybe a a trauma where um, you know, in my world, safety would go. I had experiences where I went from, you know, very safe to unsafe. And so the disconnection, the the as a child, the disconnection that would what was that?

SPEAKER_02 9:52

You're saying as a child, you would experience where you went from safe to unsafe.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, yeah. And so that split lived in my body, right? So when my child would go from happily playing to dysregulation and chaos, I experienced that that trigger. So it's just it's just one example. Um, I don't want to get too far in yet. We'll kind of see where we're going, but but to answer your question, it's it was just one way that I started to see that the pain that we go through in our lives and also as parents are really pathways back to our truth and our healing.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah. I I do appreciate that. So you encourage the client or the patient to explore what is that pain that's coming up. And you mention um looking for what is it? Is it more shame, is it anger, is it anxiety, what's happening when your child is melting down? Can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Sure. Yeah, just just paying attention to what's coming up in me. And I and I think that uh, you know, it's not something that happens immediately, just like when we're working with clients and helping them uh identify triggers, right? It takes time to know how you got from A to Z. Uh, and so this is the same, but it's really paying attention to, okay, so what is the trigger? Like what is being activated and what's coming up in me, right? Um, a common one for people when we have children that are acting out, you know, most of us were not allowed to do so. So we might have activations that come up and remind us about, well, what happened when I was acting that way, or how maybe you were treated in that situation yourself. Um, so it's hard to say exactly what it is that each of us is going to experience individually. But if we can give that reframe from the perspective of, you know, my child's acting out right now, what do I do to fix that? And look at ourselves instead and say, well, what's coming up in me? Like what is this child activating in me that's asking me maybe to look at myself.

unknown 12:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

I find that sometimes people have to do things. It's what I call it's softening the body. I feel that people have to soften the body first before they can actually pay attention to what's going on in their mind about a situation. If they're calm enough, sure, they can take a look. But otherwise, um I recommend things like four, six, eight breathing. And I'm wondering what you like to recommend.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Or if you have that approach. Right, which is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

So we have to get ourselves to a place where we are regulated enough to be able to look inside and say, okay, what's happening? Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Um, and uh certainly uh breath work, grounding, uh, if someone, you know, adopts a consistent practice, you know, meditation, guided imagery, um, all kinds of self-care can be supportive for the nervous system or are supportive. The thing that I like to add is I think so many of us um I I think we learn in so many ways that we're meant to kind of stay inside of our window of tolerance, or that that's the goal. So, like when we go out of that window of tolerance, if we go into fight or flight, or we go into dorsal veil, right? Uh freezer fawn. Um when that happens, it it's it's kind of been normalized to us, I think that we're meant to like be able to stay regulated or calm down or calm down in the moment. But I think what's really important to add to the mix is we can do exercises with our nervous system when we are not in triggered states, so that we can create more flexibility, meaning so that we can move in and out of our window of tolerance, but come back into grounding regulation and presence more quickly. And so one of the tools that I like to use is um Peter Levine's VU. I don't know if you've heard of this one. No. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Um I kind of set myself up for this sometimes. If uh I'm sitting with a client and they're like, no, I've never heard that. I'm like, okay, all right, fine, I'll show you. But it's a little uncomfortable. But so basically, when we do the voo, it's kind of the same as, you know, if you if you've ever chanted or practiced or heard like ohm, right? So certain, you know, um, certain religious organizations are are more familiar with that. But um, so the ohm or the voo are words that activate the vagus nerve. And you can also do this with humming or singing if you have a voice. I don't know the actual term for it, but if you have a voice that sings from the chest. So basically, when you are vooing or you are ohming or you are singing from down here and you can feel the vibration in the chest, yeah, you're actually working out that vagus nerve kind of like a muscle. So you're getting it to start to kind of tone itself, if you will. You're creating flexibility. So the voo goes like this. So it's an inhale, and then on the exhale, it's a and when you do this and you'll do it over and over again, you can actually feel your chest vibrating. So anything that you can do to practice where you're getting your chest to vibrate, just know you're starting to really tone that vagus nerve and you're making it so that you can start to create more flexibility in the nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Very interesting. Yes. Yeah. I used to always think about mantras. Uh the the rosary is a mantra. But what you're talking about is different. The rosary does relieve anxiety and it's a repetitive prayer if you're not familiar with how it goes. And they're also there's a component where people um meditate on different concepts called mysteries at the same time. But I don't know that it's activating this part right here, the way that you're describing. But it is, you know, it does serve to settle people down too.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think we're kind of just talking about mind, body, soul there, right? Like it's, you know, if that's a spiritual practice for somebody that's regulating, it could be considered, you know, what you're doing with your mind or what you're doing with your soul. And then this is really bringing the body in. It's like, how do we work with the body to because you know, we could have all the, and we know this, right? Any of us who have worked in this field, especially, it's like we know that we can give clients, patients, all the insight in the world, but we have to help them soften the body, as you said.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yeah.

unknown 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

So can we get back to what you were talking about regarding splitting things off? And could you talk more about what it means when someone splits off their own needs or their own preferences? And an example, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah. So I think of split-off parts of self in two different ways. I think of the disowned parts, and I also think of this through a trauma lens. And to say it simply, disowned parts of self are parts of us that when we were in our wholeness, there were moments where that wasn't accepted. So whether that was you're too sensitive, you're too loud, you're too much, you're not enough, whatever it was, we have those experiences in life that teach us those things. And those lessons can teach us to disown parts of ourselves. They can teach us to, okay, well, I'm being too needy, right? Um, I have this, I have this consistent need for attention, and I'm noticing that mom and dad are showing me what a burden that is, or maybe mom and dad aren't together, and I know how hard mom's working to keep, you know, two jobs going and raise us. And so I feel such great burden and distress that I need to split off from my needs, my neediness. So that's just one example of like a way that we start to disown parts of ourselves. It's like we we feel a sense of like this does not belong here, or I do not belong when I'm carrying this, or I'm causing someone pain or burden with this. And so we start kind of compartmentalizing parts of ourselves throughout our lives. And when I speak about it from a trauma perspective, for me, I really feel, you know, there's there's there's so many different ways to work with trauma. And this is not the only way, but this way has always been so meaningful to me to understand is in the moment of trauma. Um so whereas we're talking about disowned parts of self being, I think of that as more kind of your little tease, if you will, not to minimize it, but just like the chronic um moments that we experience usually in our lives as children that lead eventually to us disowning parts of self. Whereas in a moment of trauma, you know, take the example of um, you know, like a like a violation, a sexual violation, trauma. In in that situation, there has to be a split or a or a disowned or compartment, compartmentalized, excuse me, part of us in order to keep us safe often. So the example I'll give is um say in this case we have a female who is in a situation like that and there is a violation occurring. Later on, when we're doing that healing work and we're bringing that person into, okay, what was the what was the sadness or what was the anger that you felt in that moment? I consider that reintegrating from a split that needed to happen in the face of trauma. Now, why did the sadness or the anger have to get lost in the face of trauma? Well, because it was to keep you safe. Right. So, so if this person, we take this set example, is in this experience, and what they would normally be feeling is a lot of anger, right? Pushing this person away, making this thing stop. Um, but for real or perceived reasons, it we're we can't, we don't necessarily experience like, so let's think of it this way like the body typically will go in a situation like that into fight or flight. It will go into the sympathetic state, right? And that's where we're fighting, that's where we're fleeing. If that's not available to us, we then go into freezing, maybe fawning. So we lose a part of us in there. And and the part that I'm speaking. As far as a split off part of self is is the anger or the fear or the or the sadness. Whatever parts of us we can't access in the face of trauma because it's too scary, it's too much.

unknown 22:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

We will then later have to come back and integrate later. I feel like I'm speaking about that very psychologically. So to also say it this way, anyone who's done healing work, especially trauma healing, has been through this experience where there's either it's usually like one or the other. Like it's usually like I have access to my sadness that this happened, but I don't have access to my anger. Right. And the healing is reintegrating that split-off part. It's it's bringing that anger back to you.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

One way that I will do that, um, for example, someone who has been sexually violated. Uh I do exposure therapy. So they will have to tell me the story in as many details as possible. But what I add in for flexibility is that they will retell the story and sometimes act out a different response. So I think it's sim what you're talking about. So if they didn't fight back or push back, I will have them tell a new story where they will punch the pillow with me.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. So I would say in that moment, you are working to reintegrate a split-off part of self.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Right? Especially if that's a client who, like most, not all, but most, start in the place of, I feel really sad that this happened, but not really angry, right? So you're starting to reintegrate that anger. I always say, so I've been a clinical supervisor for many years, and so I've taught a lot of therapists. And I would always tell them, just from enough experience long enough, there were like key words that always told me, okay, this person doesn't have access to their anger. And what that would look like in this situation is, and I don't know if you've heard these exact words, but I've heard these exact words multiple times, is basically like whenever you or whenever I would bring into that client and say, like, wow, like I I feel I feel anger for you that that happened, or, or is there anger around this? Right. The answer was always like, well, what good would that do now? Um, there's no point, like that doesn't make any sense. Or I'm so afraid that if I get angry, I'll never not be angry. Um, so whenever I would hear that language, it always told me it was like, okay, this person deserves to be angry. Like they deserve to go back and take that righteous, you know, part of themselves and and really reintegrate it. So that's the language I would use is when you're in the moment therapeutically punching a pillow. It's like you're really helping them reintegrate that split-off part. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

One of the things I noticed from your work that that I relate to that I also use is using your body as an instrument in the room. So what I mean by that is literally my body is an instrument, and I'll notice how it is that someone makes me feel, and that's a sample of their world. That's how they're making other people feel, and then it's my job to give them some feedback on that in a way that i is kind and gentle that they can handle. Um an example would be I remember a man who just did not have a sense of the time of when the when the session ended and didn't take my cues and would just keep talking and talking and talking. And I had to really make it so clear that the time was up and that was a thing that was pervasive in other areas of his life. He wasn't taking cues about when to stop talking, um, when to walk away, when to give space for the other person to respond. Um, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Yeah, I mean, I think it's one of the most beautiful things about therapy, and I really hold that perspective too, where it's like the the therapy container is a sacred vessel for transformation, right? It's like whatever's happening out there is eventually gonna happen in here. Um, so I certainly ascribe to that, whether that's um in the way that you're sharing, where it's, you know, whatever it is that they need to work on in their relationships outside of here will come into our relationship eventually. Um, and I know I've always felt kind of like as a growing therapist, I remember I would feel so nervous about it because I would know it was coming or know that I needed to talk to them about it, but but you know, you kind of have to figure out how to. And um I became I became very comfortable with it over time, but I remember that that being actually a really big growth edge for me.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Um, yeah. So I'm remembering like stories when you share that. I'm like, oh yeah, I remember like awkwardly trying to get somebody out of the room on time, and you know, and and and it did wind up being part of our work, as you're saying. Um, the other thing, too, I would say with split off parts of self is um another term that they would use for this, I think is projective identification, meaning like um, you know, if I'm sitting with a client and I'm experiencing something in my own body, sometimes they're not even feeling it. It's like a it's like a part that they don't have access to. So like maybe I feel really angry when I sit with someone that's been violated who isn't able to hold that anger themselves yet. Or I've had clients where, um, you know, I I remember I used to have this one client that it's like I couldn't wait for them to leave. And this is all, you know, my earlier therapy days, but I I like couldn't wait for them to leave because I always like I just always felt like, oh, I need them to leave so I can cry. Like I just feel like I'm just gonna burst out crying and never stop. And I need them to like get out of the room so I can cry or something. Yeah. And and over time, you know, I began to take that as information, really, as just like, okay, this is what's happening for this person, whether they're conscious of it or not. And as you said, you know, gently start to, you know, hand back to them what is theirs, what what I'm carrying for them, um, and also bring into the room in the in between the relationship, like you had mentioned.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yes, yes. Over time I've gotten much more comfortable as well to bring it into the room, what I'm noticing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I wonder if you would like to share about your memoir.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Sure, sure. Yeah, so I wrote this book. Uh, I've been writing it for about 10 years, and actually, my daughter asked me the other day, how long have you been writing this book? And she's almost 10, and I was like, okay, I guess it's more like 12 now. Um, so I've been writing this book for a very long time, on and off, as a mother of three, and and a lot of other things going on in my life. And I wrote it first from the perspective of as a deaf psychologist, which is um, which we haven't even gotten into. So let me just say briefly. So as a depth psychologist, I work in a very different way than how most of us have been trained. Whereas instead of looking at symptoms as something that we need to alleviate, we look at them as pathways to truth, um, healing, uh, growth. So I really wanted to write this book from this perspective of sharing individual stories of my own in a way that could really help support someone see how you can go through really difficult things, but they can heal and bring you into not only like there's a lot of books out there, right? That say, like, okay, you can go through difficult things and they can, you know, bring you into really wonderful places in your life. Like, that's true, but I really went through and shared. It's a psychological memoir, right? So just like I would as a therapist, I really shared with people along the way, well, what did this bring up from the past? Maybe like what was this relationship or this trauma that was happening in the present that was causing pain, healing in the past. So that's really where I had landed with it. And then when while I was writing this, I became a mother. So add that layer on over time, what the book became is I tell the story through the lens of the now, which is, you know, having a young toddler um dealing with neurodivergence. And and even if these, even if the the people, even if, you know, somebody reads the book and they don't have a neurodivergent child, they'll still feel all the things that we feel as parents and just the challenges of it, right? Yes. So being in the challenges and the throes of parenting, but then seeing how all of the experiences that I had written about before actually were what were coming up and getting activated in my role as a parent, even the ones that I thought I had healed. So I really wound up seeing, you know, I knew this, but it was kind of like my embodied experience of like, okay, we do not heal, you know, linearly. We heal in layers and we heal cyclically. And so you'll see in the book me going through the experiences of I'm in this moment with my child, and this is what's coming up in my body. This is what I'm remembering from the past and how it's actually calling me to integrate, heal, grow, etc.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yeah. It's uh I was just at the gym and there was uh a young father who was telling me how shocked he is at everything that's coming up about his own relationship with his father as he is the father of the young child. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Yes, yes, yeah. And I think that that is louder than ever for us. Um I couldn't say exactly why. I mean, I just think we have a generation of people that are really doing their work. We have a generation that's really identifying with being the cycle breakers, right? Really looking at how they're parenting now and and how maybe things and ways in which they were parented they want to do differently. And I think what's coming now is kind of the layers of that. Like it's not just about um behaviorally what you can do differently. It's more like, okay, but what happened then that still exists in your body today? And how is your child the pathway or the portal to seeing that and inviting you to heal in yourself?

SPEAKER_02 33:43

So, how would you do that with, let's say, a father who has a lot of anger coming up with his children? He doesn't want to, but it's there and he's yelling a lot.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, yelling a lot tells us that he's in a sympathetic state, right? So he's in his fight or flight. So we know first that we have to soften the body. We know that we have to help him regulate. We have to help him create flexibility in his nervous system. We have to help him have tools in the moment that he can use. I would want to normalize for him what's happening because there's a lot of shame that comes along with this experience, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

And then once we're done, not done, but I would say like what we want to do is address that body first, like really address the body. And then I think there's space for you to go into more insight-oriented and and trauma work if he's open, right? So, like, okay, now why am I doing this and what's coming up in me from the past? And certainly, you know, at least for me, you know, when you come back to the way that I see this through the lens of like the split-off parts of self. And um, you know, if I'm if I'm working with a male, and this is not, this is not always true across the board, but generally speaking, men have access to anger, women have access to sadness, right? So if I'm working with a male who's predominantly in a sympathetic state, at least in those cases, then I'm actually going to try and get him to bridge over to his sadness, right? I'm gonna try and help him find compassion for himself, for his younger child, let him drop into the places, you know, where he deserves to be sad and very honoring of what it is that he himself went through, right? So I think it invites him to do his deeper work, but certainly I think that nervous system component and bringing him into the body is is essential and probably what needs to happen first. Um, and then at that point, you know, I think you've done a pretty good job. But I will say, as a deaf psychologist, I often have people that are open to going further. And I think you can get into ancestral work. I think we can start to really see what's coming up in the family line and the system, and um, you know, and then I will I will even at times really hold that from an energetic perspective too.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

I will do that sort of work with forgiveness therapy and breaking what can be intergenerational cycles. Um it could go back many, many generations, and the current generation, they don't even know why they're angry. But it may have started way back, and it just that anger just keeps going. And to break it, it's actually very painful. And there is a concept called bearing the pain. So you are the generation that doesn't want to do that anymore, but it's very difficult, and you physically feel the pain when you don't react in that way anymore. For a time until you can learn the new way.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah, yeah, sure. And truthfully, what I've found is is those of us who not always, but especially parents of neurodivergent kids. So for me, neurodivergence is yes, a differently wired brain and a different functioning person, but also like at the core for me is a highly sensitive person, a highly sensitive child. And so what I have found over time in myself and with clients is that highly sensitive children are born to highly sensitive parents. And so where I'm going with that is one of the places that I've had to land myself is I might always feel some discomfort when my child's having a meltdown. And one of those reasons is biologically I'm wired to feel that, right? The alarm's going off and I'm meant to do something about it. So my body's responding. Um, but also I have a highly, highly sensitive system. I don't like yelling and crowds and loud noises and bright lights and all those things myself, right? So I get overstimulated. Yeah. Yeah. So even though the healing work, you know, with the trauma and the things that might be coming up, like it was, it was honestly like one of my harder, um, harder places of radical acceptance, if you will, was that I always felt like if I can just heal enough, you know, this won't cause me pain anymore. And and the truth is I've done an immense amount of work and immense amount of healing, and I help many, many people. And yet when my child has a meltdown, it's it's still hard, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

So I appreciate that you brought that up. I do think that mindful acceptance of our emotions that come and go, I think it's so valuable. Yes. So can you talk about surviving versus thriving?

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah, so I think a lot of us are in survival mode today, you know, just as the state of the world and and the level of uh stress that's put on us, um, certainly in our culture um and others too. And so basically I think of survival mode as, you know, when the when the body has lived in a chronic state of stress for too long, the the body will go into survival mode. And that basically means that we just move into a space where we're going through the motions, we're getting all the things done, we're still functioning, but we're not at peace. We're living in a pretty consistent level of dysregulation, which is, you know, whether you're going into your sympathetic state or you're going into your dorsal dorsal vagal state, which for those that don't know, sympathetic's gonna be like more your fight or flight, like your irritability, your anger, your um, I gotta get out of here, or or even the people who um, you know, might not even know that they're in a sympathetic state because they just keep going, right? Like your big doers or the ones who consistently, you know, have to be up and and accomplishing something and can't allow themselves to rest. Um, and then your dorsal vagal state is more your freeze state, you know, where uh things may feel so overwhelming and so consuming. Uh a lot of people in this state will will describe themselves as as lazy, unfortunately, or procrastinators. And and I'm always happy to normalize for them, hey, that's not what's happening. You're actually literally in a freeze state, which is protecting you right now. So the body goes into survival, which is a mode where it's it's the nervous system protecting itself because it doesn't have space for joy, peace, regulation. Like those things aren't happening, and so it has to just keep going. Um, but it's a very, it's a very painful and it's a very hard way to live. And so one of the most beautiful things about working with the body and the nervous system is it doesn't always change your outside experience, you know. Some of it will change, of course, you know, just like when you do your work in therapy, things change. But you may have, you know, things in your life that that are going to be consistent in certain ways, you know, whether somebody has chronic pain or um, you know, an ill family member or a child that's melting down, right? So life circumstances may still stay the same, but it's about finding peace within. Uh, and we can certainly do that when we learn how to regulate our systems. And it doesn't have to be perfect, like we're saying, but it can be enough to bring you out of survival mode.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Uh when's your book coming out?

SPEAKER_00 42:07

So I do not have a published a publication date just yet. So we are, yeah, literally in the process of working with publishers, deciding who we're gonna land with, and then we will have a date. But most likely it's going to be next year. I if if it got fast tracked, it could be this year, but most likely it will be spring 2027.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

And and the title will be The Art of Chaos.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

That is the title right now, unless somebody wants to change it on me and they make it a whole lot better. But we've done a lot of things with it, so I think it's gonna get to stay The Art of Chaos.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Yeah, I I thought about with your title the roomy poem, Joy at Sudden Disappointment. And it's just wonderful. Are you familiar with it?

SPEAKER_00 42:55

I know a lot of roomy quotes, but I don't think I know that poem, but I'm gonna go and and look into it.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

It's really special. Yeah. Um yeah, it talks about how if you're suddenly disappointed, you might God is planning, think of it as God is planning an adventure for you. And if you're a true sheik, you will be joyful when you're suddenly disappointed.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Yeah. Well, if we all can just get there then, huh? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

So how can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Yeah, so uh if you want to come interact with me, I'm on Instagram at Dr. Nicole Dolan, and I have a website where you can come if you're interested in just checking out my work a little bit. We have a couple courses coming out, um, and I offer right now what's called sacred architect sessions, which has been really fun to do. I've been sitting with people for 90 minutes and uh creating a blueprint for them as far. As, like, you know, what I think that would be supportive for them moving forward, what's happening for them now, tracking nervous system imprint patterns that might be coming up in their life, whether it's as a parent or in relationships, uh with friends, partners, etc. So, anyone that's interested in working with me in that way, um, I have uh a sacred architect sessions uh book through my website, which is drnicole doland.com. And uh I certainly also show up in the the capacity of working with with parents uh of neurodiverg neurodivergent children. So uh my work is uh for a long time we've we've tried to niche me and we haven't been able to. So I do a I I work with a plethora of people. Um, and I like to mention too, as you mentioned, my my nonprofit Sacred Path. We have a group of therapists there that can offer sliding scale fees to the community and those who need, and we are licensed in California and Nevada. And those uh that website is Sacred Path Holistic Therapy dot com.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

All right. Thanks for being my first guest after a long hiatus.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

I'm glad to be your first guest, and it's really nice to meet you and share some time. Nice to meet you too.