Pybites Podcast

#179 - AI, Developers, and the Future of Code

• Episode 179

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Could AI make developers a thing of the past in the world of coding? Join us on the Pybites Podcast as we, Julian Sequeira and Bob Beldebos, explore this compelling question and share our personal experiences with AI's integration into our Python projects.

After we quickly recount our holiday experiences, we kick off the new year with reflections on the mindset and habits necessary for success.

Moving onto AI, we discuss its dual nature—great for boosting productivity but fraught with limitations when tackling complex tasks. We explore Julian’s journey of building a web app using Django, where AI proved both helpful and misleading. The conversation emphasizes the importance of foundational coding knowledge, especially for beginners, and the need for detailed prompts to harness AI tools effectively. AI's strengths, from summarizing articles to generating creative ideas, are highlighted, urging developers to adopt a mindset that balances AI assistance with hands-on coding practice.

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Julian:

Over the break I thought, hey, everyone's talking about and I keep getting questions from people about will AI take over Python, will it take over coding? Will developers become irrelevant and redundant? And so all these people who are saying, yeah, of course it's going to happen, it can write code Look how well it writes code and all these different things I thought, screw it, why not? So I know a bit of Django, why not see how it goes? Hello and welcome to the PyBytes podcast, where we talk about Python, career and mindset. We're your hosts. I'm Julian Sequeira.

Bob:

And I am Bob Beldebos. If you're looking to improve your Python, your career and learn the mindset for success, this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Mindset for success this is the podcast for you. Let's get started. Welcome back everybody to the Pi Wise Podcast. Just kicking it off Happy 2025.

Julian:

Hey, man, how you going Good. Welcome back everyone to the Pi Wise Podcast 2025. This is our very first episode of the year, First one in almost a month. The last one we recorded was December 20th and it's now 15th of January, so it's been quite a while, man, since we got on the microphone and had a chat. So, first of all, happy new year to you and to everyone listening. And tell me, man, what did you get to over the holidays? We took two solid weeks off, right.

Bob:

Yeah, almost two and a half weeks, crazy right. So um started with a bit of coding, but that quickly disappeared. Um, there are definitely other things in life, so no, it's great. A lot of reading. I've read um almost a whole um trilogy of um they say trilogy, trilogy, trilogy trilogy yeah of um, uh, the three body problem and always sci-fi. We really got hooked on sci-fi. So because I that makes sense, because I always loved the cosmos and and and action and stuff and and and now I finally get hooked to sci-fi.

Julian:

So to be continued, yeah, but really good really good saga. That's uh reallyexpanding, you know it frustrates me because I, you, you, first of all, you made me buy all three of them, so I have them on my bookshelf now ready to go. But I'm frustrated because we've known each other for 15 years and I have read countless sci-fi in that time and told you about it not once, not once did you try. And then watching what the netflix series got you no, no, it was before.

Bob:

It was actually a random purchase, or somebody recommended uh, the first one in portland and it was on my shelf for years, you know so you trusted someone else over me.

Julian:

Oh my god. Okay, all right, let's move on. Let's move on from this.

Bob:

No, no family time. It was great and um, we got back and and refreshed and we did goal setting. But we'll get into that in a bit.

Julian:

Yeah, that's all about you. No, same same man I mean it was. I mean we talked through whatsapp and stuff over the holidays. But for everyone listening, you know, we on my end, we just it's summer over here as well over. You know, when we celebrated Christmas and New Year's and my birthday at the start of January, it was beautiful and hot beach weather we're just constantly out. It was super busy. We were constantly with family. My brother was here from America. It was a lot of fun, but there were a couple of days that we had a brief respite from all of the family chaos and it was nice to just sit down and relax.

Julian:

From a hobby perspective, I actually did some coding, which we'll talk about in this episode. I'm going to talk some code in a bit. But I actually really dove into my home automation and did so much of my home automation using Home Assistant to those listeners who I know plenty of people in our community use it. So I really dove into that and, you know, storyboarded some ideas and how to automate things with my garage and just solve a lot of the little problems that we had around the house. That I've always wanted to, but we just didn't have time throughout the year because we're constantly, you know, switched on with pybites, so it's nice to fully switch off. I really enjoyed it. It's good, awesome cool.

Bob:

so now it's 2025 and uh, we got back into sound habits, right, like uh, do we want to? I guess we can talk a bit about habits and goals, yeah.

Julian:

I think, look, we'll talk code in a minute, but we'd be doing a disservice if we didn't talk to everyone about it. This is the time of the year when everyone every podcast, every video, every YouTuber, everything that you encounter is going to be talking about New year, new you and all these goals and things like that. You know, but ultimately, all it comes down to it's it's not about spending money, it's not about starting some crazy new diet and all these kinds of things. It's about the same old habits that you know you and I, bob, have talked about for ages. So what's the recommendation for people here?

Bob:

we've talked about for ages. So what's the recommendation for people here? Um, have a, have a, have a deliberate goal. Although the goals and habits are interesting, right, like, for example, with the fitness, I'm back on track now. I did five workouts last week. I did three workouts out of five this week. So I'm on track, I'm building that habit and, yes, it takes like 21 days, right, to build a habit, but I don't have a goal. Well, there's kind of a goal to lose weight, but I don't have that that strongly in mind. It's more like I think atomic habits talks about that. Like, um, you need to build that identity right, like I'm a guy that that um is fit, that works out, that has an agile body and stuff right, and that, for me, is enough.

Bob:

Um although I also think they sell you so much sugar, um, over the break, not for the sugar, but to get you to realize that you need to get into sound habits. But anyway, I don't know, it's uh. For me it just has been, have been, for example, with the exercising put. Put that in early in the morning and just it sucks. It's cold now here, um, but you know, do it enough times and it becomes like automatic, automatic, and that's the place you want to be.

Julian:

So that that, for me, is the habit story? Yeah, no, and you know, if I'm going to look at this from an outsider, I actually think that your goal here, whether you've realized it or not, is just to feel good. Right, it's to feel better because of how sluggish we both felt after the holidays, with the excessive, you know, eating and drinking that comes along with all these different events.

Bob:

Well, and even before, I think we fell off the bandwagon with exercising and stuff.

Julian:

And just being overwhelmed with work and all of that sort of thing. So I think what we've both realized as we picked up exercise again at the start of this year is just how good you feel during and after it. You know, I mean in the moment you are kind of, oh my God, one more rep. You know you want to die, but the feeling after it you don't want to lose that, and so you want to build this habit to keep it going. And so the tip for me, for anyone who's going to kick off something new or try to make a change for the year and all those New Year's resolutions, is to just build the space to form that habit. So create that space. Whether it be you know, as Bob, as you're doing first thing in the morning, get up and do it. You know the night before, if it's going to be exercise, put your workout clothes on your bed, at the foot of your bed, so that when you get out of bed the first thing you do is put them on. You know they're already out and ready, and then you kind of make that subconscious choice of like, well, I'm not going to put them away, I may as well put them on and then go do the workout, you know. So build these tiny little habits that will allow you to continue the larger habit and create that environment for success, because it doesn't matter how much money you throw at this stuff if you don't have the discipline and the persistence to keep at it and try it, even if it's just small chunks.

Julian:

So my first workout for this year was 15 minutes. That's all I could manage. I was definitely feeling it. I think I'd had a drink the night before, so I was a bit dry the next morning and it just it wasn't fantastic, but I got up, I did it and the next day it wasn't 15 minutes, it was 20. And now the workout that I did today was half an hour, which is my limit because of work and everything. But it worked out that I could build this habit through that very small incremental change. And now I feel so good about it that after this I don't want to go and grab a beer or a bag of chips or something. I just want a glass of water. I just want to chill out, have maybe a cup of tea and just relax. I don't feel the need to go and have some junk food with it it.

Bob:

Yeah, it's cool how it has a ripple effect, right, like now, you're eating more healthy, you're feeling more fit, you're probably more disciplined with work, so it's, it's almost like the enabler of all the rest.

Bob:

Um, yeah, two more tips. Um, set a trigger right, like for me, 10 to 8, and alarm goes off, and then I usually do my reading first, and then I know I need to stop reading. It starts with that 10 to 8, to have the discipline to drop the Kindle and get my clothes on and stuff, and that's already half of the battle, right, and then the only thing you have to do is go out and once you're there, it's not a problem anymore, right, but you need that trigger, right. And the other thing, as you already mentioned, is not perfection at it, right, like, I have a set of exercise I want to do, but if one day I get 60, 70% done because I'm out of time, then it's still better to have that partial workout than it is to skip it, because you not only skipped it, but now you endanger the momentum, right, because momentum, with this, is everything. And we're talking about fitness and we're not a fitness coaching company. But this equally applies to coding, right, when you build.

Julian:

Exactly. It applies to anything that you want to do this year, including the guitar right or the coding or whatever it might be. If you don't set the time, if't just download an app and think, yes, this is done, I'm going to do this, I'm going to have exactly what I want by the end of this year, you know. So that's probably our biggest guidance. But with regards to goals, if we were to share, we won't dive into our goals for PyBytes and everything. But what we've done is this year we did a goal setting session together last week, which was really fun and just. It really gives you energy, right? So I encourage you to sit down and do a session, but make them big.

Julian:

You know why not Make the overall goals lofty, reach for the stars, kind of things, you know. And so if you know you set a goal to get a promotion and become super senior, whatever it might happen to be, then if you don't achieve that but all the steps involved that you break it down to, what do I need to do to get there? If you only get 70% done by the end of the year of 2025, you'll probably earn at least a pay rise. You may not get the stuff. You know the kind of title for the promotion that you want, but you might get a pay rise instead, which is really good, you know. So my encouragement is set some big goals for yourself and then understand that you need to break those down into pieces to be able to achieve them. So what are the steps to get you to that goal and then just start chipping them off one by one?

Bob:

yeah. Now, what I really liked about the exercises, uh, indeed, that you have that opportunity to think big and not be modest, and you're almost, you know, putting stuff down that you think are impossible, right, yeah, but as you say, right, you aim for the stars and you land on the moon, then, even if you partially hit those goals, you're still going to hit it big, you know, yeah, yeah, it's very, um, yeah, I think that's it it's.

Julian:

What I'll add to that is that it's when you have those things down on paper or in a vim, notepad file, text file, like us um, then you have, you've at least thought about them. So when you take action during the day on anything, it'll often come back to you and make you think is this task getting me closer to that goal? And then you can kind of prioritize your day and you can think to yourself do I do one thing today to get me closer to that goal, whether it's pick up the phone, send an email, you know, I don't know write a page in a book, whatever it happens to be, you know, and if you can do one thing every day, then you see how that, that compounding effect, how it goes and it's it's highly motivating when you look back then and see where you came from.

Bob:

So yeah, the planet in the subconscious.

Julian:

I love it, okay, okay. So I know we've done plenty of episodes on this stuff, so we're going to drop it.

Bob:

There we have our productivity course. I think we just covered half of that, so you just got our productivity course for free.

Julian:

Damn it. Yeah, go go buy it.

Bob:

I've got a lot about that yeah, habits triggers goals procrastination, so might want to check it out yeah, worth it, totally worth it.

Julian:

So, code wise, do you mind if I kick this story?

Bob:

yeah, you tell, uh, tell us the django story, what happened okay.

Julian:

So I had this idea, uh, between christmas and new years. Uh, we, I've had this app idea to just build some glorified spreadsheet. I won't go into the details of what it is, but it was just an idea to experiment with Django. And I just don't have the time it's not that I don't have the time, I can't prioritize the time to do it, we've got enough to do.

Julian:

And so, over the break, I thought, hey, everyone's talking about and I keep getting questions from people about will AI take over Python? Will it take over coding? Will developers become irrelevant and redundant? And so all these people who are saying, yeah, of course it's going to happen, it can write code, look how good it writes, how well it writes code and all these different things I thought, screw it, why not? So I know a bit of Django, why not see how it goes? So I wrote an extensive prompt.

Julian:

So, first of all, let's start with that. I had to write an extensive prompt. I couldn't just say build me a Django app that does X right, I had to give it some guidance. I had to tell it break the entire app down into these feature chunks and let's work through each feature one at a time. So, first and foremost, if you're going to be using AI, you really have to think, put some deep thought into those prompts. So, forgetting that, I did that and I was actually quite impressed. It started setting up the virtual environment in Python first of all, just a normal virtual environment, just fine.

Bob:

It knew I was using the no UV, no UV. It should retrain that stuff.

Julian:

We all should be using uv right now no, it just gave me a nice vanilla python virtual vnv, right, and I'm sorry I've offended you, um, and then it started walking through just setting up a Django application, right, so create application. Whatever the command is, I can't even remember, but it started doing it and it did it well and I was really impressed. I'm like this is great, and if I didn't understand something I could ask it and it would tell me what that was. So I thought this is great. I see how this is working. I like it.

Julian:

Then, when it came to the feature as opposed to the bare bones framework of a Django app, as soon as it started building that first feature, that first app in Django, that's when it started to show some cracks and things started to fall to pieces. So it is not great at explaining every single step accurately. It will assume that you know, even though I told it treat me like a complete beginner and it kept missing things and the only reason I caught that is because I have pre-existing knowledge of Django. So a perfect example was it was telling me to add stuff to settingspy. You don't have to understand what that does for the sake of the story. But then the next prompt said add XYZ, whatever the code was. But looking at that line of code, I knew that that line of code should go in the urlspy file, not settingspy. So it had skipped the step where it should have told me now save and quit that file, go to urlspy and put this line of code in there. And I know that seems insignificant, but what I want to point out here is that the point of this exercise was to show me whether AI could completely take over the job of a developer in building stuff from scratch. And when you have errors like that or mistakes like that that a complete beginner would never catch, because they would have taken that second line of code and put it in settingspy, which would have just created all sorts of confusion. It in settingspy, which would have just created all sorts of confusion.

Julian:

You can't trust it. So I had to tell it hang on, are you sure this line is supposed to go in settingspy? I didn't even allude to where it should go and it did pick that up and it'd say oh, my mistake, sorry, good catch, that should go in URLspy. And this happened time and time again. Quite a few times there was a. Shouldn't I run a make migrations before I continue this step. Oh yes, my mistake. Run this command to do that. Hang on a minute. We shut down the server. You know the run server command. Shouldn't we restart the server to implement these changes? Oh yes, you're exactly right. Run server command. Shouldn't we restart the server to implement these changes? Oh yes, you're exactly right, we should do that. You know so.

Julian:

These are things that that beginners will not catch, and the reason I really wanted to share this is because this reiterates our point that we've said many times before AI is not going to take your job. It's not going to take over it, just it cannot, because there is an element of trust that we don't have for it, and it's in its accuracy, and I personally don't think we'll ever get to that point where we 100% trust every single thing it puts out, because it is so prone to mistakes at the moment. Who knows in 10 years? People say, well, you know it'll keep getting better and better, and I agree it will, but I still feel like there's always going to be this element of needing to put a human in there for fact checking and to make sure.

Julian:

So yeah, just the final thing, bob, before I hand back to you is, it stalled the entire app. The end result of this, where I just gave up and said happy new year 2025, was where this thing could not get itself out of a loop of a failure loop that it created. So it told me to put code in bulk, put it in in files in a specific way, and it couldn't figure out why I was getting 404 errors when I was running the server. It just could not figure it out.

Bob:

So, yeah, you didn't put in the errors, you didn't ask it. Oh, I pasted everything. I pasted all the files exactly.

Julian:

I did everything I could, and it just kept repeating itself saying oh yes, if you do things this way, and then it would repeat the exact same thing it said yeah, something that goes like in an infinite loop, right, yeah, so I would have to, or? Uh, this was a windows co-pilot, the one that comes on Windows 11 on your desktop.

Bob:

But isn't that using a GPT-4 anyway?

Julian:

Oh yeah, yeah, you're right, I think it is.

Bob:

Interesting.

Julian:

Yeah, so I will share that repo with you and we can go through it and we can have a look at what it did. But yeah, that was just my experiment to play. I was very curious to see what it could do and it just proved to me that this is not going to take over as your primary developer. So just a reminder then, Bob, because I've been talking for a while how would you suggest people use it? I know we've said this before, but I think it bears repeating.

Bob:

Yeah, I do think you should use it, though it will make you a lot more productive. And so there was a bit of discussion in the community like, should I use it? Over reading the docs? And although docs are great, I have an example where I went to AI first and then backed it up with the with the docs, right. So I built this little reflex app and I hadn't really used reflex as a framework that lets you write web apps in pure python no javascript, right, because we don't like to write javascript generally. But then, yeah, I come in with a web development experience, right. So this, this is a bit different, but I do think their approach can be general. So I did read five to 10 minutes in the documentation just to get a general overview. And documentation is great, right.

Bob:

But then I started to build something, and we always say, like, as soon as possible, start to build something, because when you have to apply concepts to a real world app or something more practical, tangible, it's going to be difficult, right. And yeah, I did get stuck and the ai did mislead me and it did make mistakes because it might not, because reflex is pretty new, so I expect it has less training data and that's important to know, right, it's, it's it doesn't know anything. It's a predictor, so it's only as good as the data is trained on. So if it has less training data, it might be less reliable, right? Um? But anyway, I got it done in the end. But, yeah, it took quite some troubleshooting and back and forth and, uh, similar to to your story, when, uh, I had the app and I wanted to break it down into steps to teach it, um, it completely missed this step where I had to use alembic to make the migrations and do the migrations. I'm like, well, we just defined a model in order to use it. Should I make migrations and run migrate to have it today? Yeah, you're right, yeah, I was wrong.

Bob:

Yeah, take everything with a grain of salt, because it can be very confident in in its tone, um, while being completely wrong, right, um, so, yeah, I, I, I would still encourage it to use it. Um, because then I built something and it was working, then went back to the docs, made way more sense, right? So sometimes if you only read the docs, it's a form of tutorial paralysis and you don't really it doesn't click right. So, um, that's why we say you always build something and then ai can really help you. But yeah, of course it will be a back and forth and it can only partially help you. Right, because I could debug it faster because I have done a lot of web development. So, yeah to to what would you so that? That's from experience, developer perspective? Um, definitely boost my productivity. Um, what about the new, new coders, programmers, where they don't have that experience? Would you then suggest using it more from explain me this, explain me that type? Yep exactly.

Julian:

I would not ask it to teach me something from scratch. Don't say, teach me Python, for example, I would start learning Python myself. You could potentially use that, right? You could say teach me the basics of Python, treat me like I'm a seven-year-old or whatever. The general guidance is for these kinds of things. But the main thing is to clarify. Ask it to clarify what you don't understand. If you're a beginner, I would get coding. Read some trusted material just to get started. Use our newbie bites just going to throw that out there to teach you the basics where you're actually coding. Because reading from chat, gpt is and any AI LLM is just the same as reading a book, right? I mean, unless you're applying what you learn, it's not going to stick. So I would use it, just like any other developer should, as an assistant.

Julian:

You write the code and you ask it to help fill in the blanks. You ask it to clarify the things that you don't understand. You ask it for ideas. You could say look, I need to connect this database with this source or whatever it happens to be. What would be the most efficient way of doing that? What would be a library?

Julian:

Actually, I asked it the other day on behalf of a friend. I said what library would I use? I forget you know what library would be best to use to do some photo compression using Python. And it came up and told me and I was like and it wasn't. I thought it was going to be like Pillow or something like that, but it was something I hadn't seen in ages. I don't even remember what it is, but it was.

Julian:

I was like, oh yeah, okay, that's cool. And I checked it out and read the docs and was like, oh, this would actually work. So that's the kind of thing that you can use it for right and that you should use it for. You should shortcut these questions that you have, even get it to write some basic template code. But if there is a single line in there that you don't understand, ask it. Ask it to clarify, because you shouldn't be just blindly putting in code that you don't understand as a developer. I think that's doing everyone a discredit if you do that, opening loopholes, creating security vulnerabilities, if you don't actually understand the code that you're taking from it.

Bob:

Yeah, also the more yeah. If you ask it to tackle something too wide, like build me an app and very generic, it's not that great. But if you're very specific, um, write me this piece of functionality and have a very detailed prompt but that again comes with experience, uh, being able to to specify it well, or or define it well, uh, then it can be great and then test it and test it.

Bob:

Yeah, yeah, but you end up debugging anyway, and that's that's a skill in itself, um, but yeah, it's also great for summarizing articles. For example, there's a very specific request, a very specific input, that does it very well. Or, give me 10 ideas to promote this podcast, then it really comes up with some good stuff. So, for analysis, investigation, it's awesome, right, yeah, for coding, it's great as well, but, yeah, you have to, um, be very specific and um, yeah, maybe use it more as an explanatory tool and, at most, have it right, your boilerplate that you understand, and then you iterate over it. I think that's, that's, yeah, that's it exactly cool.

Julian:

Well, there we go. We put that to bed. That's it, end of the discussion. No one's ever going to talk about this again, so yeah no more ai in 25.

Bob:

We just use it. We won't ever talk about it in the podcast.

Julian:

Yeah I think it's done. I think that's the end of ai for for humanity. I think we've seen the last of it.

Bob:

We do want your inputs, though. We made a little form to get some ideas what you'd like to hear, who you'd like to get on our podcast. So it takes you one minute to fill out. We'll link it below and please let us know, because we make this podcast for you and we want to make sure we also want to up the cadence right, like. We also want to up the cadence right, like, not every two weeks but should be every week again, should be in point julian bob. Um, us, we can talk, we can talk. Maybe the frequency has gone down a little bit, but we definitely want to have that cadence, but it will help if you give us that feedback, because then we can start planning and give it more. You know focus and, yeah, because it's one of the coolest things we have, I think, the podcast yeah, we enjoy doing it too.

Julian:

We love giving back with this podcast and it gives us an excuse to talk. So, um, if, if you have a look at the form as well, the one of the questions is to let us know what what you would like to hear about, not just the guests, right? So don't feel like you have to know someone you want to hear on the podcast. It's also your chance to ask questions. I put some leading questions in there. What is a skill that you're struggling with? What is something happening in your career that you'd love some advice on? These kinds of things, and obviously it's all anonymized, but, yeah, please pour anything you want in there and we will have a read when we see those coming in.

Bob:

So it can be Python programming, career mindset, productivity. It's much more than just Python. Strong focus on developer mindset, I would say Exactly.

Julian:

Okay, so we got like two minutes left, Bob, before we have to run. So what are you reading?

Bob:

Yeah, so I did sci-fi over the break and now I'm getting into technical reading again. I want to pick up Rust a bit again, even if it's only from a conceptual thing, because I want to revive the Rust platform 10 exercises. I'm going to grow to 50. So I'm reading code like a pro in Rust on Manning, and I'm also reading 99 bottles of oop, which chris may um recommend it a while ago on this podcast, and that's great, for you know the design patterns and and you know how to write quality code and stuff. So yeah, those are. Those are great cool.

Julian:

Keeping the technical stuff up. I like it. Nice, I have to, I have has to. It's not going to be me. What are you reading?

Julian:

So, look, I didn't have the luxury of, at some point during the holidays, having no children, so I and, if anything, we got extra children these holidays, so we had one point. We had five kids in the house, so I didn't get to read much at all. But I've continued reading, trying to read a chapter every day or two of the Welcome to the Hainan Dong Bookshop. It's a Korean book that I picked up I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but I've continued reading that. But I also picked up an intriguing book that I cannot wait to finish this one and dive into, called the Everything War, up an intriguing book that I cannot wait to finish this one and dive into, called the Everything War, and it's essentially a book, an expose, that was written last year, I think 2024, maybe 2023, no 2024, essentially about the Amazon and its shoddy practices and how it's just steamrolled, everything it's, you know, destroyed small businesses and all their kind of business practices. I don't know.

Julian:

I haven't read the book, so I just reading the blurb on the back. I'm like, oh, this is going to be good because, as you all know, I worked for them for almost eight years, so this is kind of uh nice to see someone actually having the guts to write something about, um, you know, critical about them, which is, uh, you mean, you need to have that balance. People aren't willing to do it because there's a bit of fear in there. So I'm looking forward to reading that when I'm done this book. So there you go. Awesome, cool, yeah, we'll be curious about that one. Yeah, see what happens. But, um, all right, well, that's it from us everyone. Thank you for tuning in, thank you for always tuning in. Continue to do it in 2025. Anything from you, bob.

Bob:

No, let's just keep growing the podcast and happy new year, yeah let's get back to work.

Julian:

Excellent, we'll see you in the community. Cheers, cheers, bye. Hey everyone, thanks for tuning into the PyBytes podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. A quick message from me and Bob before you go to get the most out of your experience with PyBytes including learning more Python, engaging with other developers, learning about our guests, discussing these podcast episodes, and much, much more please join our community at pybytescircleso. The link is on the screen if you're watching this on YouTube and it's in the show notes for everyone else. When you join, make sure you introduce yourself, engage with myself and Bob and the many other developers in the community. It's one of the greatest things you can do to expand your knowledge and reach and network as a Python developer. We'll see you in the next episode and we will see you in the community.