Injury & Violence Prevention INdepth
Injury & Violence Prevention INdepth
Hope During a Public Health Crisis
Host Mighty Fine talks with guest Jessica Ritter about the despair and hope many working in public health are feeling following the April 2025 cuts to the CDC and HHS workforce.
Jessica references different resources she has found helpful:
"Learning from the 60's" in Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde
"Feminist Survival Project" podcast by Emily Nagoski, especially the episode "An Alternative to Hope"
Big Bear Bald Eagle Nest Cam: https://www.friendsofbigbearvalley.org/eagles/
Welcome to the IVP INdepth podcast, a Safe States Alliance production. I'm your host, Mighty Fine, and I'm thrilled to have you here. This is a space where injury and violence prevention professionals come together to share ideas, spark conversation and dive into some of the most pressing topics shaping the field. Whether you're here to stay in the loop, find inspiration, or to be part of a community that wants to make a difference, you are in the right place. On today's episode, we'll be holding space to unpack and reflect on the current state of public health given the evolving actions of the current federal administration. We'll discuss how these actions are shaping our collective health landscape. Explore their impact on mental health and wellness and highlight meaningful ways you as listeners, public health professionals, change makers, can engage, advocate and contribute to positive change. So let's get started. So I am so excited to have our guests with us again today, I want to say that she's our first guest to be back for a second time. So I will ask you to introduce yourself to the folks listening in, and then we'll get right into the conversation today.
Jessica Ritter:Awesome. Thank you very much. I'm really happy to be back. My name is Jessica Ritter, and I currently serve as the State Office Coordinator for Safe Kids Pennsylvania, and I was on the podcast last summer to talk a little bit about diversity, equity and inclusion and how that relates to injury and violence prevention work. And I think we had a great time. And so here I am again.
Mighty Fine:Yes, yes, I agree. Definitely was a great time, and I think the viewers are in for a treat to have you here again. And speaking of which, so let's, let's just get right into it. Jessica, why are we even having a conversation like this today? What brings you here today?
Jessica Ritter:Yeah, absolutely. So I want to just start by saying that my thoughts and opinions shared here are my are my own, and they don't necessarily reflect any organization that I'm affiliated with. But the second reason I'm here today is the United States is in a public health crisis. I don't think that we need to get into all of the details of it, because it's a lot and it's overwhelming. If anybody has any questions or wants resources to prove why I'm saying this, you can email me, but we are in a public health crisis, or multiple public health crises all at once, but specifically because of the systemic dismantling of public health by the Federal Administrationbetween, you know, the arbitrary and potentially illegal firings, scrambling to rehire people, gutting of public health agencies and services and so much more, the actions of this administration are destroying public health nationally as well as globally, now and in the future, and it will result in higher death rates from preventable causes. So the last reason why I'm here is because of all of that, I'm constantly having really similar conversations with people, conversations about reacting to and living in these current times while being within the public health field. And I figured that if I'm having this conversation all the time, then other people have too so let's start throwing ideas out there.
Mighty Fine:Yeah, totally agree. I can't even think of recently, my niece sent me a text message and was like, Uncle Mighty, I'm reading online, and folks are like, Oh my gosh, what am I going to do with my MPH degree now? What's happening? You know, I'm feeling the urgency of addressing what's happening. So I've been having similar conversations as well. And folks have expressed their concern, their desire to engage, sort of their uncertainty, with everything, and also wanting to sort of protect their peace, because there's so much happening so soon and regularly, it's like the what's the saying drinking from a fire hose, so to speak. So yes, so it's a lot of that happening, so I can certainly understand where you're coming from. Just curious, what have some of these conversations look like for you?
Jessica Ritter:Mostly, it's been a lot of commiserating
Mighty Fine:Absolutely
Jessica Ritter:A lot of anxiety, a lot of uncertainty, just like you mentioned, a lot of depression. Sometimes we can laugh about things, because if you don't laugh, then you'll cry. And fortunately, I have a lot of space, a lot of experience in holding space for difficult emotions. Questions. I got into public health work by doing direct service work with domestic violence and sexual assault victim survivors and so what I try to do, you know, when we talk about where we are, mentally, emotionally, all of the different ways that we can be, what I try to do is always to bring it back to questions about, well, what's helping you right now? What's something that you can do that will help you, even if it's just a little bit, just 1% better than you are right now. And so then we get into these different responses that people can have to all of this chaos.
Mighty Fine:Yes, absolutely. CHAOS indeed. And for me, what this is certainly elevated. Even more is importance of community and connection. I think it's we know that it's always important. Certainly in our work in public health, we talk about the power of social capital and connect, connection and social cohesion, and how that is just protected for a community, and I think it's been demonstrated even more now why that connection is so important, as you mentioned, sort of the commiserating, but also co conspirator and co conspiring, excuse me, and really thinking about how we can do something together that has been just echoing quite loudly for me over the past months, I'd say, so, yeah, what are some of the responses to all of this that you've been talking to people about, like, what are you what are you saying, and how are you approaching this?
Jessica Ritter:Yeah. So really, generally, there are two or three various responses. I've also just gone through all of them and keep cycling through them. So I want to be clear, it's not just like a one and done approach. This definitely is an ongoing thing. So I think for the purpose of this, I'm going to split them up into passive and active responses. Yeah, so first, the easiest one is despair, and I'd loop fear into this one too. Maybe just general apathy, but the feeling that all of this is too big for us to do anything and that we can't change anything anyway, we don't have any power. It's the feeling of being frozen by all of the horrible things and how it may impact your life and future, or the life and future of those that you love and care about. And overall, it's a really dangerous place to be, this frozen perceived inability to do nothing, because it's not helpful to anyone, and it's using up a lot of energy.
Mighty Fine:Sure, yeah. And thinking about that, to your point, and what I've seen as well, sometimes it seems so overwhelming that folks are like, this is just insurmountable. I'm there's nothing that I can do. And to your point, they say stagnant, or they say fixed in that state, that apathetic state. So how do you snap out of it? And how do we move from this passive to an active response?
Jessica Ritter:So I think one way is to take things day by day, or just in manageable chunks,
Mighty Fine:Maybe minute by minute.
Jessica Ritter:Yeah, absolutely yes. You know, looking big picture, trying to predict the future, especially in this time of chaos, is really overwhelming, if not completely impossible. So when you break things down, taking it one day at a time, one minute at a time, it's easier to figure out what you can do. And that's the other important part. Is finding something that you can do. You have to find something that you can control when everything feels out of control. So it could be things like exercising, making art or music, doing the dishes, right, like basic things, calling your Senators by using Safe States Advocacy Center, or all of the above, or, you know, some other thing entirely, and eventually, hopefully, you will find something to do that's a bit more long term that works for the change that you actually want to see. But if you can't do that, then find something else to do, because even your little actions matter. One of the things for me, that's been really helping when I get stuck here in despair, is rereading Audre Lorde, specifically her essay. It's titled "Learning from the 60s", which is fine, because we still have lessons to learn from the 60s, but it's a part of the book, "Sister Outsider", and she has two paragraphs that are kind of closer to the end of it, and I'm just going to read it for the podcast, in case people haven't heard it before. It is it ended up being exactly what I needed, and I'm hoping that it will help others too. So, Lord. Writes,"To refuse to participate in the shaping of our future is to give it up. Do not be misled into passivity, either by false security, they don't mean me, or by despair. There's nothing we can do. Each of us must find our work and do it. Militancy no longer means guns at high noon. If it ever did. It means actively working for change, sometimes in the absence of any surety that change is coming. It means doing the unromantic and tedious work necessary to forge meaningful coalitions, and it means recognizing which coalitions are possible and which coalitions are not. It means knowing that coalition, like Unity, means the coming together of whole self actualized human beings, focused and believing, not fragmented automatons marching to a prescribed step. It means fighting despair. If our history has taught us anything, it is that action for change directed only against the external conditions of our oppressions is not enough. In order to be whole, we must recognize the despair oppression plants within each of us that thin, persistent voice that says our efforts are useless. It will never change, so why bother accept it, and we must fight that inserted piece of self destruction that lives and flourishes like a poison inside of us, unexamined until it makes us turn upon ourselves in each other. But we can put our finger down upon that loathing buried deep within each of us and see who it encourages us to despise, and we can lessen its potency by the knowledge of our real connectedness arcing across our differences".
Mighty Fine:Wow, that that's spot on you. Really is
Jessica Ritter:So Lord is saying so many things that resonate decades after her writing. Right? She's talking about the necessity of working for change, even when you don't know that it's going to happen. How unbeautiful that work is, or at least can be, about building coalitions and community like you were talking about and connection, and how important that is, doing the internal work, instead of just complying in advance with people who want to destroy us actively, because that's what the feelings of despair and perceived powerlessness says powerlessness, yes, does. It keeps us from taking meaningful action, and ultimately it complies with what they want, which is that we do nothing. So, in the words of Audre Lorde, one way to snap out of depression and despair is to find your work and do it and build your communities.
Mighty Fine:Yeah, I think to that point, that's why it resonates with me, is it helps folks to recognize that there's a lot to do, and we're not saying that you need to do everything, or that you need to do everything solo, right, right? Figure out what it is that you can do, how you can activate and be part of the collective. So we're sharing and addressing this dismantling of public health and this attack on public health, and I think if we're able to pause when we need to right, but also and also recognize that there is so much power in our collectiveness that what we see as unattainable is actually achievable. So I'm glad you shared that with folks, and I'm hoping that it resonates with them, which I think it most certainly will do. And earlier, you said that despair was the easiest one. Why is that?
Jessica Ritter:So I think despair is the easy response, because it's a sort of intuitive move to things that feel as overwhelming and as unchangeable as the current situation and the future path of America. These things are so big and we're just individuals, right? That's what despair says. And so it's easy to get trapped here instead of doing anything else. The doing is the hard part and the necessary part. And there's another turn here that I want to make, still talking about passive or inactive responses and reactions, another aspect that's similar to despair, but still different enough to be unique. I think this one might be a little controversial because I'm using it in a way that's not normally used. I hope people can stay with me. Another response that can potentially be passive, but isn't always, is hope or something similar to it,
Mighty Fine:All right, so that people can stay with you, let's unpack that a little bit more. Tell me some more about your thinking behind this.
Jessica Ritter:Yeah, yeah, so it's not real hope. There's there's a whole science of hope with the definition of it and everything, and part of that definition is planning its action. There's something that maybe I'll refer to as passive hope. So it's this idea that, yeah, things will eventually get better. The Universe arcs towards justice, right? Like this whole kind of line of thought, but it's not my responsibility to make it so the idea that it'll get better on its own, or somebody else will take care of it, so I don't have to do anything. It's not my responsibility. So sometimes hope can be someone's reason for doing nothing, and some people might refer to this as ignorance, or maybe willful ignorance, or maybe delusion, but passive hope, in my mind, can be the reason why people do nothing or feel no responsibility to the future, or no responsibility for making the future better. And usually, inaction wouldn't be framed as hope. Inaction can be framed as a lot of different things, but I do think sometimes it comes from a place of of hope for the future, just through this belief that things will get better, that someone else with more power, more resources, more strings, will do something, and that you can't be responsible for it because you don't have that power.
Mighty Fine:Yeah, I think it's great to point that out, because I will say I've been part of conversations where people have jokingly said, like, Oh, get somebody else to do it. That's not my issue, and again, not attacking anyone or anything of that nature, but more so, sort of pulling it up to the front so folks can understand how inaction can be detrimental as well, and solely relying on someone else to do it is not necessarily going to help move us forward. So I think it's great that you sort of called out what you've termed passive hope. So hopefully folks are getting it and it's resonating with them.
Jessica Ritter:Fingers crossed
Mighty Fine:Yeah, because I think if they sit with it for a second again and acknowledge that we're not saying wagging fingers, right and saying Shame on you, but helping people to understand what may be the root or their source of their their inaction. So again, thank you for for bringing that to the forefront. And again, we talked about this before, but how do you snap out of that,
Jessica Ritter:Yeah. So for passive hope, right? You don't see yourself as having a responsibility to to the future, to the betterment of society. And so sometimes, somehow, you have to be convinced that your actions do matter, and that you do have power, that you can make a difference. And so this, I think, is where we kind of get into hope as a more active response, and go on the actual definition of hope as defined by many other people.
Mighty Fine:Well, let's dig into that a little bit more.
Jessica Ritter:Yeah, absolutely, to be completely honest, this is probably the one that I'm least familiar with, just okay, because of who I am as a person, right? Like, I'm just gonna be completely honest about that. So hope, as an active response is the idea that life is meaningful, that your actions are meaningful, and so it propels you into action. You know, we're all familiar with. Emily Dickinson wrote that hope is the "thing with feathers that perches in the soul and sings the tune without words and never stops at all". And I've also seen, kind of in juxtaposition to that, a post on social media that says people speak of hope as if it is this "delicate, ephemeral thing made of whispers and spiders webs". But it's not hope has "dirt on her face, blood on her knuckles, the grit of the cobblestones in her hair and just spat out a tooth as she rises for another go". And so I vibe more with that second description of hope as a fighter, because I feel like hope, especially hope for change takes effort and energy and determination, and it can be exhausting to hold on to hope. So for the science of hope that side of things, there is the hope Research Center at the University of Oklahoma, and they define hope as the "belief that the future will be better and you have the power to make it so". Hope is based on three main ideas, desirable goals, pathways to goal, attainment and agency, or willpower to pursue those pathways. So that is a very active definition. And I think hope is, and should be, something that can propel a person into action, fierce action. It can also make it that much harder and worse. If that action fails, I want to put out something that's hope adjacent Emily Nagoski is a famous author. She's written at least two books. She's just a really, generally awesome person. It seems. I don't actually know her personally, but seems to be really cool. Has a podcast called "The Feminist Survival Project" with her sister, and within that podcast, she has a 15 minute episode called "An Alternative to Hope". In the episode, she talks about how her hope broke about 20 years ago, and that's the language that she uses that her hope broke. She describes hope as a sustaining energy, and talks about her need for something different from that. So she uses the work of moral philosopher and author of the book called "How We Hope". Adrian Martin to pose to propose the response of what she calls unimaginable hope, or faith. She, Emily Nagaski, makes it very clear that she's an atheist, but she describes this faith, rather than hope, as the belief in a better future, even without the certainty of it. So I want to just highlight some of her words and her language within the podcast episode to because this it's kind of a nuanced conversation. She says, what is broken in me is not my ability to imagine but the sense that I am justified in believing that I can create the outcome I imagine. What is not broken in me is my sense that I am justified in believing that I am working to create what I can't imagine. She describes, she says, some days when my depression is extra bad, my unimaginable hope. The secret medicine is my belief, without reason, that even though I am in the deepest darkness, my next step will not be off a cliff, but onto solid ground. Meanwhile, she also says, if hope is an option for you, do hope? Hope is amazing, right? She definitely is encouraging people to stay hopeful, keep the hope alive, all of that, I think, for people, particularly, you know, I have been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, you know, all of the things, like a typical millennial, I hadn't heard something like that described before, and so I wanted to off offer that as an alternative here before we moved on to kind of the last active response.
Mighty Fine:Yes, yeah. I think she puts it beautifully. And I think it's even important to acknowledge that she is an atheist, and faith and hope is something that our religions sort of teach as well. So to me, that's creating a space to allow folks, irrespective of their religious ideologies, to also acknowledge that faith and hope can be powerful things. So yeah, I'm right there with with you all on that, in the sense that I am a firm believer in faith and hope, and I've always been taught about it, and also been taught about not just believing and thinking that things will be better, but also figuring out ways to position myself or the folks that I'm around to make it better. So it's sort of actively working towards it, and coupling the two together, if, if you will. So again, that's it's very much resonating with me. So we've talked about the other responses. So let's get into this the last one.
Jessica Ritter:So the last response that I really wanted to highlight is what I have been calling spite.
Mighty Fine:I really want to hear about this
Jessica Ritter:I haven't heard very many people talking about spite recently, and I think that some people might think that doing things out of spite is bad, or it's a negative emotion or response, maybe, maybe because it seems so similar to anger or to pettiness, but I think that it can be a really powerful response to a situation like this one. Spite is the thing that says I'm going to do this thing specifically because it is what you do not want me to do, right? It says I will not lead yield to you. I am going to stand firm in what I want to do and what I am doing. The quote that I have seen, that always makes me think of spite, is the horrors persist, but so do I.
Mighty Fine:I might have to steal that, you know, please do Oh, seriously, I love that. I'm a big T shirt with sayings kind of guy, I think that made that's, that's one that certainly, I think will resonate with others, because, again, it's tying so beautifully to the other sort of responses that you've talked about already. So, you know, before I fan out to. Much. I'll just ask you to tell us, what does that? What does that look like?
Jessica Ritter:Yeah, so, so under under this current administration, the people who are in charge of the country don't care about us. They only care about themselves, making themselves wealthier, and particularly if you are a woman or person of color or queer or LGBTQ, low income, disabled and immigrant, any other historically marginalized identity, they would not and do not care if we died. And spite says, just because of that, I am going to live, and even further, right, spite says, because of that, I will find joy in my life, in my identities, in my communities, specifically because you don't want me to and you know, it might piss you off, right? That's like an added benefit, and
Mighty Fine:Almost like you're not going to erase me, I'm not going to allow you.
Jessica Ritter:Yes, yes, absolutely, So doing things out of spite can can look a lot like doing things out of hope or out of faith, because they overlap. The outcomes are the same. It's just the internal motivations that might be different. And so another aspect of spite that I want to push forward is it actually comes from this post on Twitter that said you really have to be committed to noticing the beauty in life, or you'll be consumed by the terror. And I feel like that really is getting to the point of the active responses that you need to do the things to notice the beauty and keep noticing, keep going, or you will be swept away by it all, because it is so overwhelming and it's easy to fall into despair because of that. So some of the ways that I've been noticing the beauty in life is by making art, I'm meeting with friends and doing we do craft nights, or what I've been calling a do what helps night, and we've been trying to do that each month. And another, another thing I've been doing is like almost obsessively watching the Big Bear, Bald Eagle Nest Cam to see. Listen, they they are world famous now, so I don't necessarily feel bad calling them out like this, but there are two baby eaglets that are growing and they're thriving under the watchful eyes of their parents, Jackie and shadow, they're bald eagles, and could probably have an entire podcast episode just talking about this, this bald eagle nest. Honestly, it has, and I would totally tune in. It has given me great amounts of joy to see these little eaglets grow up. They're getting in their flight feathers. It's very exciting. Other ways that I notice the beauty in life is I have two kids who are six and two years old, and so, you know, anything that I can do with them, they are hilarious. They definitely kind of force you to be in the present moment. And so that that's also been very helpful. And yet, there's, there's just so many, so many different things, other other things that people can do. You know, you can create wellness plans, and there are outlines on the Audre Lorde project. Just full circle on Audre Lorde, I've said it before. You said it mighty, building your community and finding your people becomes so important during times like this, especially times like this, it's important all the time, but this is when it's absolutely necessary, taking things day by day or minute by minute, knowing when to step back and take a break, yes, and knowing when to jump back in and get involved. So keeping with the full circle and bringing it back to Audre Lorde, right, the importance of finding your work and doing it, whatever it is, however unromantic It is, however different it might look from what others are doing or even what you think others are doing. My work seems to be facilitating conversations like these, and trying to help people move to a place of action, whatever that action looks like for them, so that we can imagine a better world together and then hopefully make it happen.
Mighty Fine:Absolutey, and in some ways, I'd say in those conversations, you are serving as inspiration or hope for people that things will change. And so I say to you, keep on doing that for sure. Myself having similar conversations and knowing when to plug in and knowing when to not have conversations as well, like protecting my piece and saying, you know. It. I really don't have it in me to really go into what's all happening right now and creating boundaries, and people are respectful of those boundaries, but also letting them know I'm there to support in other ways.
Jessica Ritter:Yeah, I am such a huge fan of boundaries that absolutely it is so important knowing when to be like, I don't have the capacity for this. Or you are not actually, like, intentionally listening to me. You are just coming here for an argument, and I'm not here for that. Like, yes, that is a necessary part of the work.
Mighty Fine:Agreed I don't. I actually am very firm on not engaging in conversations where someone is just intended on selling me their point and thinking
Jessica Ritter:Willfully misunderstanding
Mighty Fine:Absolutely, and I recognize that Facts are facts and opinions are opinions, and I'm totally a fan of having a conversation and understanding how someone processes said situation differently than me. Yeah. So that's how we learn, and that's what we grow. That's how we evolve. But if someone's coming there to intentionally try to influence or recreate my own ideologies, Mighty is going to have a hard time receiving that when I know the intention isn't true or pure or good or beneficial, absolutely, I'm right there with you. The other thing, when you're talking about hanging out with the kiddos and and all of that, it may I don't have children, but I love engaging with younger folks, and so I've started mentoring a little bit more, and I've been finding that bringing me lots of joy. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, it's so, it's so it's so fun and so rewarding, and I had done it consistently before, but I don't want to say I didn't have time, I didn't make time to do it, and I'm glad that I'm making time to do it now, because it's just so fulfilling to me, and I have an opportunity to help shape the minds of our future leaders and be in partnership with them in that so it's, again, wonderful. The other sort of random, cool thing that I've been doing with friends, we saw online that friends were hosting, like in services, so to speak. And it's where you do a PowerPoint presentation. Have you seen that? And you explain to your friends what you do for a living. Because, you know, you hang out with friends, and you do some non work related things that you sort of paint a picture of your friends in one life, and then you're like, wow, you're actually out here doing some fantastic work,
Jessica Ritter:Right? Like, it's hysterical, especially when you talk to friends a lot and they like name drop co workers, and you're that one. I know that person. They're a problem for you. Like, they made all of this other work that you had to do. And yes, but like, if you asked me to give the company and job title of my friends, I'd be like, Man, some social work. Like, so yes, the powerful, oh my
Mighty Fine:Gosh, yeah. And the reason why I bring that up is because, because of us doing that, we were able to identify where some of our work connected and intersected. And so outside of our work, we formed a coalition or committee, I'm not sure what you would call it, where we are sort of actively working to resist some of what's happening now. And I think had we not found space to sort of engage and build community with each other and talk about what we're doing as work, we probably would not have thought to do that. So I say that full circle for me too, because we were able to not only hold space for each other personally and address some of those things that we're going through as we're navigating this world as it is, but we were also able to connect professionally and activate our different organizations to resist what's happening now. So so this conversation really resonated with me, as always with you, Jessica and I, thank you for coming and being our first second guest. And I mean, I'm sure I speak for the producers of the podcast, that we'd be, we'd welcome you back anytime, because you're just a wealth of information and knowledge. And as I mentioned, not only to your friends, I feel that in our interactions, you're very inspirational, but also aspirational in ways too. So again, thank you for creating space to have these conversations and engaging with us to have this conversation today.
Jessica Ritter:Thank you so much, Mighty thank you for your kind words and also for having me again. You know, maybe well appear a third time next year. I really it is an honor to be here. So thank you so much.
Mighty Fine:Oh, absolutely. Our pleasure. That's a wrap for this episode of IVP INdepth, and thanks for listening. I have to give a big shout out to Jessica for returning to the podcast and sharing some great insight and wonderful resources. I'd also like to thank our sponsor, the juvenile project. X Manufacturers Association or JPMA for sponsoring this episode of the podcast. JPMA is the voice of the industry on quality and safety for baby and children's products. They strive to advocate for safety through product certification programs and legislative and regulatory involvement. They support a broad and diverse membership through member only programming and industry promotion, and they act as a comprehensive source for baby product information and education. Be sure to learn more about what they're doing at jpma.org if you are not already a member of Safe States Alliance, now is the perfect time to join be part of a community working to create safer, healthier communities for everyone. Check out our website at safestates.org and you can explore a range of resources, including toolkits, training opportunities and other useful information designed to support you and your work in the field. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode, whether on Google podcast Apple or Spotify. But while you're at it, leave us a review and let us know how we're doing again. Thank you for tuning in. We'll see you next time, and until then, stay safe and injury free.