

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          Um   I   do   use   syntax   highlighting,   but   uh   I&#39;m   more   and   more   turned   off   by   syntax   highlighting.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:06</time>
      <p>
          What?   What?   You   don&#39;t   like   syntax   highlighting?   You   sound   like   an   old   grumpy   man.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:12</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I   am   an   old   grumpy   man,   Connor.   I   am   an   old   grumpy   man.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:28</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   The   Podcast,   episode   67,   recorded   on   February   5th,   2022.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   talk   about   how   to   get   started   with   C.   New   episode.   This   is   gonna   be   episode   like   68   or   something.   Who   knows?   Um,   this   is   coming   out   probably   in   March   of   uh   2022.   We   had   a   person,   uh   his   name,   Jeff   Erickson.   Shout   out   to   Jeff   Erickson.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:59</time>
      <p>
          Hello,   Mr.   Erickson.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:01</time>
      <p>
          And   he   sent   me   a   sort   of   episode   request.   So   Bryce   has   gotten   zero   uh   this   is   he&#39;s   gonna   be   off   the   cuff   responding.   Uh,   but   we&#39;re   gonna   go   ahead,   we&#39;re   gonna   go   ahead   and   read   this   message   from   Jeff   Erickson,   and   then   we&#39;re   gonna   get   uh   we&#39;re   gonna   answer   this   live.   Hey   Connor,   Jeff   here.   I&#39;m   a   huge   fan   of   your   YouTube   stuff   as   well   as   ADSP.   Well,   uh,   thank   you,   Jeff.   Uh,   it&#39;s   kind   of   you   to   say   so.   I   wanted   to   write   to   say   that   while   sometimes   you   might   think   that   the   audience   of   ADSP   is   a   bunch   of   C   people   who   also   want   to   branch   up,   I   think   there   are   also   a   lot   of   people   like   me.   That   is,   people   with   10   plus   years   as   an   engineer   who   have   never   touched   C.   Personally,   I&#39;ve   worked   in   Python,   R,   Go,   Pearl,   and   SQL.   I&#39;ve   also   been   interested   in   functional   languages,   and   I&#39;ll   be   honest   that   I   hadn&#39;t   given   C   much   thought   since   I&#39;d   I&#39;ve   avoided   it   until   now.   Until   I   started   listening   to   ADSP.   Listen   to   that,   Bryce.   We&#39;re   making   we&#39;re   changing,   we&#39;re   changing   people&#39;s   views.   Bryce   loves   you.   Uh   but   now   I   must   I   am   C   curious.   So   I   thought   it   might   be   worth   suggesting   to   you   to   do   an   episode   on   ADSP   where   you   talk   about   why   you   guys   like   C   and   talk   about   how   someone   without   any   experience   could   try   it   out   or   get   started   or   inspire.   C   is   one   of   those   languages   that,   to   me   at   least,   feels   so   big   and   massive   that   it&#39;s   extremely   intimidating   to   start   learning   it   as   a   35-year-old   who   isn&#39;t   learning   it   in   school.   What   resources   would   or   could   get   someone&#39;s   feet   wet   enough   to   tell   them   if   they   should   continue   the   journey?   And   also,   I   think   it   would   be   worthwhile   to   describe   your   dev   tooling,   also   since   that   too   has   been   a   huge   black   box   with   to   me   with   respect   to   C.   Maybe   it&#39;s   just   the   circles   we   find   ourselves   in,   but   I   feel   that   while   the   newer,   cooler   languages   and   quotations   get   a   lot   of   action   in   terms   of   interesting   books   to   read   and   cool   tooling   to   improve   your   dev   environment,   languages   like   C   don&#39;t   seem   to   get   the   same   treatment.   As   experienced   C   people   yourselves,   maybe   that   is   less   clear   to   you.   If   it&#39;s   not   episode   worthy,   if   you   could   at   least   maybe   give   me   a   few   tips   for   starting   points,   I&#39;d   really   appreciate   it.   Thank   you,   Jeff.   So,   Jeff,   I   think   it&#39;s   a   great   episode   idea.   And   now   we&#39;re   gonna   get   Bryce   Bryce&#39;s   response.   So   the   question   is,   in   the   midst   of   that   uh   big   long   message,   is   that   you   know,   how   does   someone   get   started   uh   now   that   they&#39;re   C   curious   when   they&#39;re   not   learning   it   in   school,   where   do   you   begin?   What   resources   would   you   recommend?   And   what   about   the   tooling   setup?   Bryce,   go.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:23</time>
      <p>
          Um,   so   let&#39;s   start   off   with   why   I   like   C.   Um   I   think   actually,   if   you   go   back,   um   one   of   our   earlier   episodes,   we   talked   about   how   many   programming   languages   should   you   learn.   And   uh   I   took   the   position   of,   uh,   you   only   really   need   to   learn   one   or   two.   And   Connor   took   the   position   of   learn   all   the   programming   languages.   And   I   actually   think   that&#39;s   one   of   the   nice   things   about   C   is   its   versatility.   Um   uh   C   is   a   multi-paradigm   programming   language.   I   think   that   is   really   the   defining   characteristic   of   C   as   a   programming   language.   Um   that   you   can   um,   you   know,   it&#39;s   an   it&#39;s   an   imperative   language,   it   maps   very   closely   down   to   hardware,   um,   but   also   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   you   know   an   object-oriented   language,   it&#39;s   a   generic   language,   it&#39;s   a   functional   language.   So   you   can   you   can   um   use   a   wide   variety   of   different   programming   paradigms   and   techniques,   and   I   think   more   importantly,   you   can   combine   those   different   techniques   together.   Um   and   so   for   me,   one   of   the   things   that&#39;s   appealing   about   C   is   that   um   uh   uh   you   know,   for   systems   programming   tasks,   you   can   you   can   use   it   for   for   like   almost   anything.   Um   and   uh   and   not   be   restricted   to   a   particular   way   of   programming.   Um   it   gives   you   many   different   uh   choices   and   options.   Um   you   know,   sometimes   some   of   those   are   foot   guns,   which   people   don&#39;t   love.   Um   but   that   that   to   me   is   a   big   part   of   the   appeal.   Now   now   the   it   doesn&#39;t   mean   that   you   can   actually   only   learn   C,   because   um   it&#39;s   you   know,   uh   as   a   sort   of   a   systems   programming   language,   um   something   that   you   use   to   write,   you   know,   uh   underlying   things   and   as   a   compiled   language,   it&#39;s   not,   you   know,   as   nimble   as   something   like   Python.   Um   but   if   you&#39;re   in   that   space   of   writing   um,   you   know,   uh   something   that   needs   to   some   sort   of   system   software,   something   that   needs   to   be   high   performance,   um,   or   that   that   needs   to   talk   to   hardware   or   talk   to   operating   systems,   etc.   Um,   or   you   know,   a   lot   of   the   meat   behind   a   lot   of   the   things   that   we   actually   use   end   up   getting   written   in   C.   Um   and   to   me   part   of   the   appeal   is   that   like   you   can   you   can   learn   this   one   skill   how   to   like   program   in   C,   and   then   there&#39;s   just   a   very   wide   variety   of   things   that   you   can   do   with   it.   Um   so   I   think   to   me   that&#39;s   like   part   of   the   appeal   and   the   magic   of   it,   um,   especially   as   compared   to   other   um   uh   to   other   systems   programming   languages.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>6:07</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   one   thing   I&#39;ll   echo,   because   a   lot   of   the   I   like   C   for   the   same   reason.   I   will   say   on   a   small   tangent,   once   again   at   the   Denver   C   meetup,   which   I   think   got   messaged   mentioned   a   couple   episodes,   the   most   recent   topic   was   like   an   open   conversation   on   what   makes   programming   fun.   And   at   one   point   I   mentioned   in   the   chat   that   I   said,   you   know,   C   is   not   fun   in   parentheses   relative   to   other   languages,   which   was   kind   of   just   a   provocative   thing   to   say,   um,   because   I   like   APL   better.   Um   But   um   what   like   the   thing   that   I   really   like   about   C,   especially   compared   to   languages   like   Go,   is   Go   is   not   programming   language   enthusiasts&#39;   language,   meaning   that   they   really   want   you   to   do   everything   sort   of   one   way.   Like   that&#39;s   sort   of   the   the   thing   about   Go,   is   that   they&#39;ve   got   sort   of   one   way   to   do   it,   and   all   Go   code   tends   to   be   very,   very   similar.   And   so   you   can   hop   from   one   code   base   to   an   oak   another   code   base,   and   sort   of   the   tribal   knowledge   of   that   sort   of   code   base   is   very   small.   So   you   can   ramp   up   extremely   quickly.   It&#39;s   a   high   productivity   language.   Uh   but   that   means   that   if   there&#39;s   you   know   there&#39;s   not   a   lot   of   options   as   a   programmer   for   how   you   want   to   do   something.   Whereas   in   C   it&#39;s   the   exact   opposite.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>7:22</time>
      <p>
          There,   like   COVID-If   anything,   there&#39;s   too   many   options.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>7:25</time>
      <p>
          Exactly.   And   which,   as   a   programming   language   enthusiast,   I   get   to   choose   the   style.   Do   I   want   to   code   functionally?   Do   I   want   to   code   you   know   small   talk,   you   know,   OO-ishly   with   messages   and   you   know   that   kind   of   style?   Like   I   you   can   code   in   whatever   style   you   want.   You   want   to   code,   you   know,   basically   with   just   C   with   classes,   you   can   do   that   as   well.   Which   leads   to   issues   if   you   don&#39;t   have   agreement   with   your   coworkers   on   like   how   you   want   to   program.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>7:49</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   and   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   like   one   of   the   reasons   why   you   know   coding   styles   and   code   guidelines   are   so   important   in   C.   And   I   feel   like   there&#39;s   some   other   programming   languages   where   maybe   like   people   who   program   in   those   languages,   like   this   idea   that   it&#39;s   important   to   have   coding   styles   might   be   foreign   because   they&#39;re   just   so   used   to   like   this   is   the   way   that   you   write   code   in   this   language,   but   in   COVID.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>8:16</time>
      <p>
          Many   different   flavors.   And   that&#39;s   the   whole   thing,   is   you   know,   the   Python   ecosystem   as   well,   like   it&#39;s   not   as   much   the   same   as   Go,   but   they   try   to   layer   that,   you   know,   the   Zen   of   Python,   there&#39;s   one   way   to   write   code,   and   just   you   know,   black   is   the   formatter   that   everyone   uses.   Python,   once   again,   they   try   to   sort   of   like   idiomatic   Python,   the   Zen   of   Python   is   like   there&#39;s   one   clear   way   to   do   things.   Whereas   in   C,   there&#39;s   never   one   clear   way   to   do   things.   There&#39;s   like   literally   C   11,   14,   17,   20,   the   way   you&#39;re   gonna   do   metaprogramming   uh   is   vastly   different   in   each   one   of   those   because   we   got   if   const   expert   and   C17,   we   got   concepts   and   C20,   uh,   we   got   const   expert   and   C11,   and   you   know,   more   and   more   const   expert   stuff   with   every   edition.   Like   how   you   do   metaprogramming   is   like   drastically   different   in   every   single   standard,   which   is   definitely   a   thing   that   is   intimidating.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:04</time>
      <p>
          Um   well,   it&#39;s   like   I   used   to   say   this,   mostly   I   used   to   say   this   about   Java,   and   you   know   what?   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   shit   on   Java   a   little   bit.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>9:14</time>
      <p>
          Juicy   content.   There   we   go.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:16</time>
      <p>
          You   know,   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   bad   C   code   out   there,   but   there&#39;s   also   like   good   C   code   out   there.   Whereas   for   a   language   like   Java,   there&#39;s   only   really   mediocre   Java   code.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>9:30</time>
      <p>
          Shots   fired.   I   myself   love   all   programming   languages,   and   I&#39;m   not   even   gonna   say   even   Java.   I&#39;m   just   gonna   say   Java   like   is   included,   you   know.   There&#39;s   no   even   there.   It&#39;s   all   programming   languages   get   a   little   heart.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:43</time>
      <p>
          Fun   fact,   when   I   was   at   LSU,   um   uh   working   like   my   first   six   months   there   before   I   was   a   student   when   I   was   just   like   a   college   dropout   working   at   the   research   center.   Um   uh   I   worked   with   this   professor,   Steve   Brandt,   and   for   reasons   that   are   still   beyond   me,   he   asked   me   to   substitute   Teach   for   his   like   Android   programming   course   one   day.   And   it   was   he   was   more   of   a   programming   languages   guy   like   you.   Actually,   we   should   have   him   on   the   podcast   sometimes   because   I   just   realized   that   you   two   are   like   shockingly   similar   in   your   programming   language   uh   tastes.   Um,   although   he   was   like   like   this   was   this   was   a   guy   who   if   if   I   needed   like   a   script   for   something,   I   could   email   him   with   a   rust   rough   description   and   he   would   send   back   like   the   most   obscure   uh   obscurcated   Perl   script   that   you   could   imagine.   Like   no   comments,   no   line   breaks,   and   it   would   do   exactly   what   I   wanted,   but   I&#39;d   never   know   how   it   worked.   Um,   but   um   but   I   substitute   taught   for   this   Java   class   for   like   one   class.   I   didn&#39;t   know   anything   about   Java.   I&#39;m   not   sure   like   literally   I&#39;d   never   written   a   line   of   Java   code   in   my   class   in   my   life,   but   somehow   I   got   through   it.   I   think   the   students   did   not   realize   that   I   had   never   written   Java   code.   I   think   there   was   it   was   like   early   in   the   semester,   so   they   were   still   like   learning   about   fundamental   data   types,   and   so   I   just   was   like,   oh,   it&#39;s   like   you   know,   fundamental   data   types,   they&#39;re   basically   the   same   in   all   the   languages.   I   can   just   teach   them.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:15</time>
      <p>
          Strings,   just   plus   equal,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:18</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   But   um   that   was   that   was   the   one   time   that   I   taught   a   college   course.   Was   uh   was   an   intro   to   programming   class   in   Java.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:30</time>
      <p>
          All   right.   Well,   back   to   Jeff&#39;s   question.   So   that&#39;s   why   that&#39;s   why   we   like   C   because   you   can   do   whatever   you   want,   basically.   Yeah.   Uh   and   and   also   when   you   compare   it   to   sort   of   the   other,   that&#39;s   actually   he   asks   a   follow-up   question   if   we   have   thoughts   on   Rust   or   C,   but   I   feel   like   we   should   save   that   to   uh   for   another   episode   when   we   bring   someone   on   that   actually   knows   about   Rust,   and   then   we   can   go   back   and   forth.   But   so   that&#39;s   why   we   like   C.   What   do   you   recommend   for   someone   that   wants   to   start   learning?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:55</time>
      <p>
          I   get   this   question   a   lot.   I   a   lot   of   people   ask   me   about   like   book   recommendations,   and   that&#39;s   always   tough   for   me   because   I   don&#39;t   really   read   programming   books.   The   circumstances   that   I   will   read   programming   books   is   if   like   one   of   my   somebody   that   I   know   has   written   a   programming   book   and   like   I   get   sent   a   copy   of   it,   um,   like   then   I&#39;ll   like   read   it,   you   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:19</time>
      <p>
          I   saw   you   tweet   about   uh   Kate   Gregory   and   Guy   Davidson&#39;s   book   the   other   day.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:24</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   Um,   and   like   I&#39;ve   got   you   know,   I&#39;ve   read   Titus&#39;s   software   engineering   at   Google   book,   but   that&#39;s   not   really   a   programming   book.   That&#39;s   a   that&#39;s   a   software   engineering   book.   There   aren&#39;t   a   lot   of   those.   Um   I&#39;m   looking   at   my   shelf   here.   Um   I&#39;ve   read   some   of   Lagos&#39;s   books.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:39</time>
      <p>
          Um   that&#39;s   John   Lacos   from   Bloomberg.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:42</time>
      <p>
          But   I   don&#39;t   like   me   going   to   read   a   programming   book.   I   guess   the   only   two   programming   books   that   I&#39;ve   really   ever   read   have   been   Elements   of   Programming   and   the   Structure   and   Interpretation   of   Computer   Programs   and   Parts   of   the   Art   of   Computer   Programming   Volume   2   and   Volume   3,   because   I   only   have   volume   two   and   volume   three,   as   we   discussed   in   an   earlier   episode.   I   was   gifted   those   by   a   mentor,   Hart   McKaiser,   and   I   asked,   where   are   the   other   volumes?   And   he&#39;s   like,   You   don&#39;t   really   need   those.   Um,   I   think   I   don&#39;t   think   that   that   was   his   real   answer.   I   think   he   just   didn&#39;t   know   where   they   were.   But   um,   but   yeah,   I&#39;ve   never   really   been   like   a   book   learner,   so   that&#39;s   always   tough   for   me.   I   mean,   the   way   that   I   I   when   I   started   programming,   and   I   think   we&#39;ve   discussed   this   on   the   podcast   before,   I   was   I   wanted   to   create   a   text-based   game   of   MUD.   Um,   and   uh   I   was   working   with   this   guy   and   we   were   writing   it   in   C.   And   so   he   was   like   teaching   me   a   little   bit   about   C.   And   then   he   used   like   Boost,   you   know,   one   of   the   Boost   algorithms   for   like   string   splitting,   and   then   it   had   a   bug   in   it,   and   I   went   like,   you   know,   fix   the   bug,   and   then   I   quickly   got   involved   in   Boost.   And   this   was   like   in   like   month   two   or   three   of   me   teaching   myself   to   program.   Um,   so   for   me,   like   the   way   that   I   learn   and   get   started   is   I   just   like   start,   like   I   learn   by   doing,   I   learn   by   example.   Um   so   it&#39;s   hard   for   me   to   recommend   learning   materials   because   I   have   not   often   used   learning   materials.   I   just   like   to   dive   right   in.   I   don&#39;t   know,   do   you   have   books   or   resources?   Something   more   useful   than   what   I   just   said.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:14</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   when   I   really   dived   into   C,   the   books   that   I   tore   through   were   Scott   Myers&#39;   books.   Um,   the   effective   C,   more   effective   C,   Effective   Modern   C,   and   then   the   effective   SDL   books.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:30</time>
      <p>
          We   should   publish   a   book,   most   effective   C.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:35</time>
      <p>
          Those   are   great,   although   I&#39;m   actually   not   sure   how   they&#39;ve   aged.   I   think   they   do   actually   age   quite   well.   Although   now   that   like   1720   are   out,   I&#39;m   sure   that   there&#39;s   some   stuff   that&#39;s   out   of   date.   And   I   would   definitely   say   that   uh   finding,   I   always   try   and   find   an   online   sort   of   playground. I   don&#39;t   have   more   effective   C   ⁇ .   I   only   have   effective   C.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:00</time>
      <p>
          Do   you   have   more   effective   C   I   mean   the   one   thing   I   do   like   about   I   do   particularly   like   effective   C   and   more   effective   C   because   um   it&#39;s   not   it&#39;s   a   book   that&#39;s   a   list   of   specific   things,   and   like   that&#39;s   something   that   I   can   use.   It&#39;s   like   you   give   me   like   a   list   of   like   ways   to   do   things.   Um   yeah,   I   mean   I   feel   like   I   feel   like   most   of   this   is   still   pretty   applicable.   Familiarize   yourself   with   the   standard   library,   including   TR1,   that&#39;s   less   applicable.   Familiarize   yourself   with   Boost.   Even   though   I   am   a   Boost   person   and   I   strong   enough   with   Boost,   I   feel   like   that   is   actually   less   applicable   these   days.   Um   I   don&#39;t   know   how   applicable   it   is   okay.   I   feel   like   I   feel   like   effective   C   and   a   lot   of   C   books   of   that   era   um   are   much   more   focused   on   object-oriented   design   um   than   on   other   parts   of   the   language.   Um   and   at   least   for   me,   um   it   is   very   rare   in   my   work   that   questions   of   uh   the   design   of   inheritance   hierarchies   or   polymorphic   objects   um   uh   comes   up.   Um   almost   always   it&#39;s   questions   of   library   and   interface   design.   Um   uh   and   with   simple   or   relatively   simple   vocabulary   types.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:39</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   So   yeah,   I   if   if   you&#39;re   looking   for   a   book,   honestly,   I   would   just   Google   like   C20.   There&#39;s   like   five   or   six   C20   books   out   there.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:50</time>
      <p>
          So   I   think   I   I   would   actually   recommend   Beautiful   C   because   it   is   a   book   in   the   style   of   like   for   me   it&#39;s   a   good   book   because   it&#39;s   a   book   in   the   style   of   effective   C,   and   that   it&#39;s   like   a   concrete   list   of,   I   think   it&#39;s   hang   on,   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   get   the   copy.   Um   30   core   guidelines   for   writing   clean,   safe,   and   fast   code.   So   it&#39;s   like   30   concrete   things   that   you   can   learn,   and   like,   or   like   30   mantras   or   takeaway   lessons.   Um   and   uh   and   it&#39;s   just   been   published,   so   it&#39;s   fairly   up   to   date.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:27</time>
      <p>
          Um   I   would   say   the   yeah,   one   of   the   most   useful   tools   is   uh   Compiler   Explorer,   which   is   basically   an   online   uh   compiler   that   you   can   just   go   write   your   C   code   in   the   browser.   And   at   least   while   you&#39;re   learning,   unless   if   the   way   you&#39;re   gonna   start   learning   is   by   building   some   project,   um,   I   would   just   sort   of   code   there   because   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   awesome.   Like   even   half   the   time   when   I   do   development,   if   I   can   sandbox   it   and   build   up   a   prototype,   I&#39;ll   just   do   it   in   God   Vault.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>18:00</time>
      <p>
          Um   Yeah,   I   I   do   find   God   Vault   to   be   a   very   good   resource   for   learning.   Um   and   I   use   it   a   lot   day   to   day   because   if   I   just   want   to   go   answer   a   quick   question   about   how   does   something   work   in   C,   um,   you   know,   going   and   doing   it   on   my   laptop   involves   like,   you   know,   I   have   to   go   put   a   file   somewhere,   then   I   have   to   go   find   a   compiler   that   works.   Um   and   it&#39;s   like   God   vault,   it&#39;s   just   the   turnaround   time   is   so   much   quicker.   Um   yeah.   Yeah,   I   actually   I   actually   I   think   I&#39;m   gonna   be   bold   and   say   that   you   know   I   I   I   I   rarely   I   rarely   actually   like   endorse   a   book   because   again,   like   I   don&#39;t   really   read   them   that   much,   but   I   really   did   like   Beautiful   C   ⁇ .   I   feel   like   it&#39;s   it   is   a   better   version   of   effective   or   more   effective   C   that   has   like   the   guidelines   and   the   rules   that   I   would   want   to   have.   So   yeah,   that   that   one   that   one   has   my   stamp   of   approval.   But   I   don&#39;t   know,   I   like   I   think   it&#39;s   good,   I   think   that   sort   of   book&#39;s   good   if   you   already   know   the   language   and   you   want   to   know   how   to   write   it   good.   It&#39;s   maybe   not   the   best   for   learning   the   language.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>19:13</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   Do   we   want   to   talk   about   tooling?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:18</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I   think   we   just   did.   We   talked   about   Godball.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>19:21</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I   know,   but   like   outside   of   compiler   explorer,   I   would   say   like   the   way   that   I   develop   right   now   is   with   VS   Code   and   a   bunch   of   extensions.   So   the   clank   format,   clank   tidy,   and   you   can,   I   think,   I   think   Jason   Turner,   I&#39;d   probably   point   you   to   C   Weekly,   because   he   basically   has   like   a   short   five   to   ten   minute   video   on   every   topic   under   the   sun.   And   I&#39;m   pretty   sure   he&#39;s   got   one   on   Claim   Format,   and   he&#39;s   got   one   on   Clang   Ty.   And   I   think   Jason   Turner   even   has   like   a   little   starter   CMake   project   that   has   all   that   stuff   set   up   from   the   get-go.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:55</time>
      <p>
          I   feel   like   my   answer   is   gonna   not   be   very   helpful   here.   Um   which   is   that   what?   I   use   Vim.   I&#39;ve   only   ever   used   Vim.   I   started   off   my   career   on   supercomputers,   and   uh,   you   know,   when   you   work   in   supercomputing,   you   often   you   have   to   go   and   do   stuff   on   some   obscure   system   somewhere   that&#39;s   running   like   rel   like   a   Red   Hat   release   that   was   put   out,   you   know,   before   like   when   you   were   in   high   school,   and   there&#39;s   like   no   graphical   user   interface,   there&#39;s   no   nice   things,   and   like   you   gotta   you   gotta   edit   some   code   there.   And   so,   you   know,   Vim   is   the   thing   that   like   you   can   reliably   have   on   those   platforms,   and   or   you   can   easily   install   um   or   build   yourself,   because   I&#39;ve   had   to   do   that   many   many   a   time   because   the   platform   had   too   ancient   a   version   of   Vim   for   me   to   work   with.   Um   and   it&#39;s   like   lightweight,   and   I&#39;ve   got   a   little   Vim   config   that   I&#39;ve   built   up   over   the   years   that   mostly   functions,   and   I   copy   that   from   system   to   system,   and   that&#39;s   uh   that&#39;s   what   I   use   for   my   editor.   And   like   I   don&#39;t   use   mini   Vim   features.   Um   one   of   my   colleagues,   Mihao,   has   pointed   out   that   like   I   don&#39;t   really   know   how   to   use   Vim.   I   don&#39;t   know   all   of   the   like   every   every   time   he&#39;s   I&#39;m   screen   sharing   and   I&#39;m   using   Vim,   he   like   teaches   me   a   new   thing,   and   I&#39;m   like,   wow,   that&#39;s   gonna   save   me   so   much   time.   Um   I   don&#39;t   have   it   like   hooked   up   with   any   of   the   like   IDE   features.   I   don&#39;t   use   anything   like   C   tags.   Um   uh   I&#39;ve   never   used   Clang   format.   Um   I   I   do   use   syntax   highlighting,   but   uh   I&#39;m   more   and   more   turned   off   by   syntax   highlighting.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:39</time>
      <p>
          What?   What   you   don&#39;t   like   syntax   highlighting?   Yeah,   sound   like   an   old   grumpy   man.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:46</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   I   am   an   old   grumpy   man,   Connor. I   am   an   old   grumpy   man.   Um   I   mean   I   I   usually   I   usually   use   CMake,   but   for   a   lot   of   like   little   projects,   I   just   write   a   book.   I   mean,   my   development   life   is   held   together   by   bash   scripts.   So   that&#39;s   me.   Um   yeah.   I   have   used,   I   did   use   recently   the   um   God,   what   is   it?   I   I   tweeted   about   it.   I   needed   to   like   do   a   PR   on   just   on   GitHub.   I   didn&#39;t   want   to   check   out   anything   locally.   And   I   used   the   like   online   VS   Code   thingy   on   GitHub   where   if   you   if   you   like   change   the   starting   URL   of   a   link   to   something   on   GitHub,   it   then   drops   you   into   this   like   online   VS   Code   developer   environment.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:43</time>
      <p>
          Isn&#39;t   it   just   control   period   as   well,   the   shortcut?   Okay,   let&#39;s   go   try.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>22:48</time>
      <p>
          Let&#39;s   go   try.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   if   I   go   control   dot.   Shift   dot?   Yeah,   shift   dot.   Shift.   Setting   uh   setting   up   the   web   editor,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>23:03</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   if   you   change   it   from   github.com   to   github.dev,   then   it   drops   you   into   that   environment.   And   I   was   amazed,   listener.   Like   I   was   like,   I   need   to   make   this   change   where   I   need   to   change   two   files   and   then   like   submit   a   PR.   And   usually   like   on   the   GitHub   website,   if   you   need   to   change   one   file   and   submit   a   PR,   that&#39;s   easy   to   do.   But   if   you   need   to   change   two   files   and   turn   them   into   a   PR,   that&#39;s   tricky.   And   I   was   like,   I   don&#39;t   want   to   check   this   repo   out.   I   have   like   10   minutes   before   I   need   to   leave,   but   like   I   need   this   change   in   because   like   RCI   is   broken.   And   um   I   was   able   to   just   like   like   I   didn&#39;t   do   shift   dot,   but   I   did   like   I   just   changed   the   URL   from   github.com   to   github.dev.   It   dropped   me   into   this   environment.   I   was   like   able   to   open   up   a   branch,   uh,   I   was   able   to   like   make   my   changes,   and   like   it   was   just   amazing   how   quickly   it   was   done.   And   I   was   like,   this   is   how   I   want   to   write   code   now.   Um   so   yeah.   But   I   I   I   I   only   casually   use   VS   Code.   My   like   day,   day-to-day   go-to   editor   is   Vim.   But   but   don&#39;t,   but   don&#39;t,   don&#39;t,   don&#39;t   be   like   me.   Don&#39;t   like   Jeff,   don&#39;t   don&#39;t   listen   to   like   like   just   because   I   do   things   this   way,   like   you   should   do   things   the   way   that   Connor   described.   Like   use   VS   Code,   um   uh   use   claim   title.   Like   you   do   all   of   those   things.   Do   all   of   those   good   things.   Don&#39;t   be   like   me.   Don&#39;t   be   like   me.   I   am   I   am   a   bad   programmer,   which   is   why   I   mostly   don&#39;t   write   code   anymore.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:36</time>
      <p>
          Yep.   C   is   awesome.   Use   uh   compiler   explorer,   choose   whatever   book   you   want.   I   would   also   recommend   check   the   show   notes.   I&#39;ll   add   a   list   to   like   the   list   of   talks   that   the   SG,   was   it   20,   whatever   the   education   um   study   group   is   for   the   C   committee.   Um   they   put   together   a   list   of   like   top   talks   that   cover   sort   of   different   things.   Um   if   it&#39;s   not   included,   it   definitely   should   be.   Jason   Turner   has   a   talk   that&#39;s   like,   you   know,   why   I   love   C,   and   it   covers   the   25   things   that   he   really   liked   about   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>25:12</time>
      <p>
          But   I   was   submitting   for   C   North.   I   was   pleasantly   surprised   to   notice   that   my   talk   was   listed,   my   C17   features   talk   was   listed   as   one   of   the   like   talks   to   like,   and   you   should   your   talk   should   aspire   to   be   like   this,   and   I&#39;m   like,   uh,   Connor   put   that   there   for   me.   Well,   but   and   that   talk   like   did   not   go   great   because   I   had   syntax   highlighting   on   my   slides   and   the   blues   were   too   dark   for   people   to   read,   and   like   I   had   to   like   deal   with   that   mid-talk.   I   don&#39;t   know   how   it   came   out   on   the   recording,   but   that   was   rough.   I   think   maybe   I   re-recorded   because   it   was   bad   enough.   I   made   them   re-record   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>25:51</time>
      <p>
          Yep.   CPP   North,   uh,   I   mean,   call   for   papers   is   closed,   but   I   mean,   nice   try.   Maybe   next   year.   At   this   point.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:00</time>
      <p>
          But   you   you   still   want   people   to   go   to   your   conference,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>26:03</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   true,   that&#39;s   true,   that&#39;s   true.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:05</time>
      <p>
          I   will   probably   have   to   start   splicing   in   uh   you&#39;re   gonna   throw   a   so   that   conference   is   like   the   week   of   my   birthday,   so   you&#39;re   gonna   throw   a   ridiculous   birthday   party   for   me,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>26:14</time>
      <p>
          Uh   sounds   good.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:17</time>
      <p>
          You   should   you   need   to   start   planning   that   right   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>26:20</time>
      <p>
          Should   I?   We&#39;ll   get   Louie   out   from   uh   Louie   out.   We&#39;ll   fly   get   Michael   out   as   well.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:26</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   you   should   be   like   you   should   be   coordinating   with   my   mother.   Like   you   should   be,   there&#39;s   a   lot   of   things   you   should   be   doing   right   here.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>26:34</time>
      <p>
          You   have   responsibilities,   sending   the   pigeons   out   to   the   ducks   to   let   them   know   to   all   come.   Uh   make   sure   that   you&#39;re   in   town.   Yeah,   so   Jeff,   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   we   really   did   a   good   job   answering   your   question,   though.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:43</time>
      <p>
          Like   you   did   a   good   job   of   answering   the   question.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>26:46</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   don&#39;t   be   like   Bryce   when   it   comes   to   programming,   apparently.   Yeah.   But   yeah,   I   mean   C   is   uh   it&#39;s   a   great   language.   A   lot   of   great   jobs   out   there.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:55</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   honestly,   that&#39;s   he   he   one   of   the   things   he   asked   was   like   how   to   get   started.   And   like   I   legitimately   think   the   best   way   to   get   started   is   to   just   do   something,   do   some   project   C.   Um,   doesn&#39;t   really   matter   what.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:07</time>
      <p>
          Um   I   feel   like   I   feel   like   a   lot   of   the   times,   although   it   sounds   like   Jeff&#39;s   a   pretty   motivated   person,   but   a   lot   of   the   times   when   I   get   that   question,   I&#39;ll   get   people   like   just   randomly   pinging   me,   being   like,   hey,   I&#39;m   interested   in   topic   X,   like,   how   do   I   get   started?   And   a   lot   of   the   times   it&#39;s   like   just   dive   in.   Just   like   it   doesn&#39;t   matter   what   talk   or   what   book   or   you   know,   what   pod,   find   what   you   like,   you   know,   whether   it&#39;s   audio   form   or   whether   it&#39;s   uh   you   know   video   lecture   form   or   whether   it&#39;s   book   form   or   whether   it&#39;s   just   literally   exploring   the   language   and   you   know   breaking   things.   Um   find   what   method   you   like   the   best   and   just   do   that.   Like   the   the   hardest   part   is   putting   the   time   in.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:44</time>
      <p>
          I   feel   like   people   maybe   get   a   mental   block   here   because   they   think   that   becoming   a   C   plus,   like   becoming   a   programmer   or   learning   a   C   or   learning   any   new   like   tech   skill,   they   think   that   it&#39;s   like   becoming   a   lawyer.   Like,   you   know,   like   what   are   the   what   are   the   things   you   know   that   I   have   to   do   to   become   a   lawyer?   Like,   you   know,   like   there&#39;s   like   this   one   path   that   you   have   to   go   through   and   you   have   to   go   get   into   law   school,   and   then   you   have   to   get   a   law   degree,   and   then   you   have   to,   you   know,   pass   a   bar   exam   in   the   United   States.   It&#39;s   like   there&#39;s   no   there&#39;s   no   certification   for   being   a   C   ⁇   programmer.   Um   and   you   know,   like   like   I   would   say   like   there   are   some   things   that   are   like   certifications   or   programs,   you   know,   in   tech.   Um   and   I   think   some   people   think   like,   oh,   well,   I   go   do   this   and   then   I&#39;m   you   know,   then   I   will   be   qualified   because   I&#39;ll   have   the   piece   of   paper.   And   I   don&#39;t   think   I   think   that&#39;s   what   like   chips   people   up.   It&#39;s   like   that   you&#39;re   thinking   that   there&#39;s   like   some   like   fixed   or   set   roadmap   um   for   you   to   like,   you   know,   get   on   like   become   a   C   programmer.   There&#39;s   not.   Like   it&#39;s   different   for   everybody.   Um   so   the   best   way   to   get   started   is   just   just   you   know,   figure   out   what&#39;s   the   way   for   you   to   that   you&#39;re   gonna   learn.   Um,   you   know,   figure   out   what   interests   you.   Um   there&#39;s   no   one   fixed   path   for   everybody   to   enter   this,   you   know,   this   industry.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:10</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah,   absolutely.   And   that&#39;s   the   thing,   is   like   I   I   enjoy   all   forms.   I   love   lectures,   I   love   podcasts,   I   love   um   reading   actually   is   probably   on   the   lowest   on   the   list,   but   like   I   absolutely   love   listening   to   podcasts.   Like   I   listen   to   like   I   think   at   this   point,   like   40   plus   podcasts.   And   um   yeah,   CPP   cast.   I   think   actually   we&#39;re   gonna   have   to   keep   track   of   this.   At   some   point,   we   are   gonna   be   the   number   two   uh   C   podcast   out   there   currently,   right   now.   It   depends   on   how   you   define   what   a   C   podcast   is,   because   even   us,   we&#39;re   like   C,   you   know.   But   like   CPP   Cast   is   definitely   number   one,   and   I   think   at   the   moment,   CPP   chat   is   number   two.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>29:52</time>
      <p>
          But   we&#39;re   gonna   overtake   them.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:53</time>
      <p>
          And   if   you   qual   if   you   count   us   if   you   count   us   as   a   C   podcast,   we&#39;re   number   three.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>30:00</time>
      <p>
          And   then   how   are   you   how   are   you   ranked   in   terms   of   subscribers?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:03</time>
      <p>
          It   depends,   but   like   on   my   um   app   that   I   used,   which   is   Castbox,   I   believe,   it   shows   both   the   number   of   subscribers   and   the   number   of   plays.   And   I   sort   of   they   they   both   typically   follow   if   you&#39;re   ahead   of   in   terms   of   subscribers,   you&#39;re   typically   ahead   of   in   terms   of   views   as   well.   Um   that   being   said,   so   we   already   just   tied   um   CPP   chat   on   this   app   with   4,000   uh   views.   Um   but   they   still   have   more   subscribers.   Boom.   They&#39;ve   got   274.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>30:42</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   Kenny   and   don&#39;t   unsubscribe   from   them,   lovely   people.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:45</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   they&#39;ve   got   274   and   we&#39;re   at   162.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>30:48</time>
      <p>
          Um   but   but   our   our   true   our   trajectory,   our   acceleration   for   it   is   greater   than   theirs.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:55</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;ve   got   a   lot   of   momentum   and   also   a   lot   of   regularity   in   that   we&#39;ve   never   missed   also   too.   Yeah,   we&#39;ve   never   missed   a   Friday.   We&#39;re   at   what   episode   67.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:05</time>
      <p>
          What   would   it   take   for   us   to   miss   a   Friday?   A   pandemic   didn&#39;t   do   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:09</time>
      <p>
          Oh   yeah.   Should   we   should   we   talk   about   tail   end   of   this?   All   right.   Uh   Jeff,   I   hope   that   answers   your   question.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:21</time>
      <p>
          Thank   you   for   putting   up   with   us,   Jeff.   We   uh   we   love   you.   We   we   love   all   of   our   listeners.   We   really   do.   It&#39;s   still   hard   to   believe   that   people   want   to   listen   to   this.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:30</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   mean,   we   did   really,   we   have   a   little   bit   fallen   off   of   the   wagon.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:34</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   well,   don&#39;t   worry,   we   wagon   back   on   the   wagon.   No,   wagon.   Wagon,   wagon,   wagon.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:40</time>
      <p>
          Say   like   wagon.   Wagon,   wagon,   wagon.   Wagon?   The   problem   is,   the   problem   is,   is   that   I&#39;m   just   having   too   much   fun   now.   Just   like   I&#39;m   sure.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:58</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I&#39;ve   always   I&#39;ve   always   described   it   to   people   as   like   this   podcast   is   all   is   just   about   the   bromance   chemistry   that   we   have.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:05</time>
      <p>
          Uh   have   we   mentioned   std   reduce   in   like   10   episodes?   No.   Uh   we   haven&#39;t.   But   are   we   having   a   great   time?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:11</time>
      <p>
          We   should   talk   about   we   should   talk   about   std   fold   at   some   point.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:15</time>
      <p>
          Okay.   All   right,   we&#39;ll   wrap   it   up.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:16</time>
      <p>
          All   right,   we&#39;re   having   to   actually   stop   recording   because   this   is   this   is   gone.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:22</time>
      <p>
          How   long   have   we   how   long   have   we   been   recording   for?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:24</time>
      <p>
          Uh   an   hour   and   forty   five   minutes.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:27</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   been   recording   for   an   hour   and   fifty   three,   so   I&#39;m   hitting   the   stop   button.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:30</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   hitting   the   stop   button.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:32</time>
      <p>
          Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>