

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:01</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ll   say   this.   You   are   not   the   oldest   guest   we&#39;ve   had   on   the   podcast.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>0:04</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   you&#39;re   very   sweet.   I   just   turned   50   like   a   few   weeks   back.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:08</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   then   not   not   even   you&#39;re   not   even   in   like   the   top   two   or   three.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:26</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   74,   recorded   on   April   14th,   2022.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   interview   Patrice   Roy   about   C   education,   cats,   and   more.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:41</time>
      <p>
          You   know,   it&#39;s   interesting.   I   I   um   I   was   thinking   about   this   a   bit   the   other   day   that   um   I   that   they&#39;re   thinking   about   the   nature   of   programming   books.   Um   that   I   think,   and   maybe   maybe   this   is   untrue,   but   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   put   out   my   theory   here,   which   is   um   I   know   a   lot   of   people   who   write   programming   books.   I   have   a   shelf   full   of   books   that   are   written   by   my   friends.   Um   but   my   impression   is   that   most   of   them   are   written   with   the   audience   of   post-education   um   people,   people   that   have   graduated   from   college,   that   are   practicing,   you   know,   software   engineers   or   programmers   and   who   want   to   continue   learning   their   skills.   Um   uh   and   that   they&#39;re   not   written   as   textbooks.   And   I   guess   my   impression   is   that   like   in   other   fields,   um   that   tends   to   be   less   the   case.   It   tends   to   be   more   that   books   get   written   as,   you   know,   explicitly   as   textbooks   or   as   course   books.   Maybe   I&#39;m   wrong   about   that.   Maybe   my   perception   is   is   is   off   here.   I   certainly   know   that   some   of   the   C   books   that   I&#39;m   familiar   with   are   used   as   course   textbooks.   Um,   maybe   not   at   like   the,   you   know,   the   introductory   level,   um,   but   but   at   the   higher   levels.   Um   but   I   think   it   is   sort   of   like   an   interesting   phenomenon.   Um,   it   reminds   me   of   a   of   another   thing,   which   is   when   I   was   a   kid,   I   would   go   to   conferences   all   the   time   with   my   mother   because   she&#39;s   a   lawyer,   and   lawyers   um   have   to   do   a   certain   amount   of   continuing   education   um   every   year   to   keep   up   with   their   certifications,   their,   you   know,   their   uh   Bar   Association   memberships   in   the   US.   Um,   and   you   know,   one   of   the   ways   that   you   can   qualify   to   do   that   for   that   continuing   education   is   to   go   to   a   conference   and   you   know   attend   some   classes   there,   which   is   a   lot   more   fun   than   just   like   taking   some   training   courses.   So,   of   course,   that&#39;s   what   we   would   do.   Um,   but   there&#39;s   no   real   certification   or   requirement   for   that   in   you   know   the   programming   industry.   So   it&#39;s   sort   of   um   up   to   our   own,   to   each   of   us   to   feel   motivated   to   continue   learning.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>2:44</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   but   if   you   don&#39;t,   you&#39;re   gonna   get   stuck   way,   way   back   and   you&#39;re   gonna   stop   following   what&#39;s   going   on   in   the   world.   And   the   um   I   don&#39;t   use   books   uh   written,   but   I   have   probably   the   same   books   you   have.   Uh   I   don&#39;t   use   most   of   them   in   my   classes.   I   do   suggest   chapters   from   time   to   time   to   students.   I   write   my   own   material.   If   you   look   for   introductory   books,   there&#39;s   one   uh   from   Bjarne   that&#39;s   kind   of   cool.   They   the   one,   the   the   one   with   the   the   birds   on   it.   Yeah,   tour   of   C.   No,   this   is   this   is   cool   if   you   already   know   how   to   program,   but   the   programming   principles   book   with   the   swans   on   it.   It&#39;s   written   for   undergrads,   so   it&#39;s   kind   of   accessible.   And   what   I   like   about   it   is   that   it   goes   into   detail   as   to   why   you   do   that,   how   you   can   do   things   with   the   language,   what   what   the   purpose   is,   what   the   uh   there   are   pictures   of   people   like   Stepanov   and   they&#39;re   like   these   are   the   artisans,   the   people   that   have   worked   on   this.   The   language   lives   through   them.   So   there&#39;s   I   think   for   beginners   it&#39;s   an   interesting   book.   It&#39;s   a   bit   big   maybe   for   a   class,   but   uh   but   I   don&#39;t   use   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:44</time>
      <p>
          So   the   one   the   one   that   Patrice,   there&#39;s   a   there&#39;s   a   few   different   books   by   Bjarna.   Um   uh   two   of   the   more   mainstream   and   popular   ones   are   uh   the   Swan   book   one,   which   is   uh   programming   principles   and   practices   using   C   by   Bjarna.   The   other   one,   which   um   is   one   that   I   is   perhaps   the   most   frequently   cited   introductory   C   book   that   I   know   of   is   the   C   programming   language   book,   which   is   um   has   a   similar   cover   in   that   both   covers   are   blue,   but   the   C   programming   language   book   has   mountains   on   it.   Um   I   don&#39;t   remember,   I   don&#39;t   know   if   there&#39;s   a   fifth   edition   of   it   now.   The   fourth   edition   was   I   think   the   C11.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>4:23</time>
      <p>
          No,   yeah,   Bjorn   he   doesn&#39;t   want   to   write   one   because   the   language   has   changed   too   much.   And   I   don&#39;t   think   it&#39;s   a   good   introductory   book   if   you&#39;ve   never   programmed   before,   though.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   a   good   book   to   get   C   if   you   learn   something   else   in   the   past.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>4:33</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   interesting.   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   I   I   know   some   people   wrestlers   that   have   used   it   for   a   for   an   intro   programming   course   that   was   taught   in   C.   Um,   that   there&#39;s   some   other   books   that   Bjorn   have   written,   written,   like   uh   the   design   and   evolution   of   uh   C,   which   uh   that&#39;s   an   awesome   book,   though.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>4:48</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   really,   really,   really   good.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>4:50</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   uh   I   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   recently   was   diving   in   it   to   find   quotes   for   for   something.   It   is   a   pretty   solid,   pretty   solid   book.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>4:58</time>
      <p>
          It   gives   you   perspective   as   to   why   things   are   the   way   they   are,   uh,   why   why   the   model   is   what   it   is,   and   how   it   differs   from   other   languages.   So   even   if   you   don&#39;t   like   C,   you   should   read   that   book   to   at   least   get   why   the   language   is   what   it   is,   because   there&#39;s   purpose   to   that,   there&#39;s   meaning   to   that.   It&#39;s   uh   the   i   i   i   passed   it   along   to   my   colleagues,   and   everybody   loved   it.   Even   those   who   don&#39;t   do   C,   they   love   the   book.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>5:22</time>
      <p>
          So   you   said   you   you   develop   your   own   course   material.   Um,   is   that   is   that   pretty   common   in   the   CS   world?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>5:30</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I   I   don&#39;t   know   about   the   CS   world   entirely.   Uh   uh   in   where   I   work,   uh   many   of   us   do   that.   So   uh   it&#39;s   yeah,   yeah,   I&#39;m   a   bit   of   a   maniac   for   that.   So   I   write   my   own   stuff   all   the   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>5:44</time>
      <p>
          Now,   now,   of   course,   I&#39;m   gonna   put   you   on   the   spot.   Is   it   open   source?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>5:48</time>
      <p>
          Uh   well,   uh   if   you   can   read   French,   a   lot   of   it   is   on   my   website.   I   have   a   very   big   website   with   awful   colors,   I   know,   but   that&#39;s   some   purpose.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   an   ugly   looking   site   with   lots   of   contents   that   uh   people   who   speak   French   look   at   quite   a   bit.   Um   uh   I   used   to   have   um   a   password   on   the   site,   but   it   was   a   hassle   because   uh   people   couldn&#39;t   reach   it   through   Google.   So   I   removed   that.   The   course   material   uh   that&#39;s   in   book   format   is   accessible,   but   universities   they   want   to   control   access   a   bit,   so   they&#39;re   on   Moodle   sites,   so   it&#39;s   not   as   open   source   as   it   could   be.   Uh,   if   I   do   a   big   update   of   everything   at   some   point,   now   I   don&#39;t   have   the   time   these   days,   uh   I   might   like   just   publish   the   stuff   uh   in   article   form   on   my   site   to   make   it   available   to   more   people.   So   right   now   there&#39;s   an   overlap   between   the   book   kind   of   stuff   that   I   write   that&#39;s   for   the   students   and   the   article   stuff   that   I   write   that&#39;s   on   my   site.   And   some   in   some   cases   the   site   is   more   up   to   date,   in   some   cases   the   books   are   more   up   to   date.   But   the   overall   stuff   is   pretty   good,   I   think.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>6:51</time>
      <p>
          It   it   just   seems   to   me   like,   you   know,   we   we   in   the   um   in   the   soft   world   world,   you   know,   we   we   know   how   to   do   you   know   open   collaboration   between   you   know   different,   you   know,   spanning   organizations   and   and   national   boundaries   and   you   know,   uh   and   everything.   Um   it   seems   like,   you   know,   what   why   why   isn&#39;t   why   doesn&#39;t   like   every   programming   language   or   every   field   in   CS   have   like   some   you   know   open   source   collaborative   effort   to   develop   uh   uh   you   know   educational   material   for   the   university   level?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>7:28</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   a   very   good   question.   I   don&#39;t   know.   There   are   open   classes.   Uh   the   maybe   it&#39;s   just   because   schools   make   money   out   of   that.   I   don&#39;t   know.   It   can&#39;t   be   that   simple.   No,   the   why   do   we   sell   the   standard   on   ISO?   It&#39;s   because   yeah,   there&#39;s   some   slight   amount   of   money   to   be   made   out   of   it,   I   guess.   Um   the   uh   I   want   I   want   people   in   my   classrooms.   I   want   to   be   with   people   and   talk   to   them.   So   I   don&#39;t   want   to   record   my   classes   and   let   people   watch   them   uh   from   home   using   popcorn   and   beer.   I&#39;d   prefer   them   to   be   having   popcorn   beer   with   me   or   something.   So   so   if   I   publish   everything   online,   uh   I&#39;m   gonna   be   alone   in   the   classroom,   it&#39;s   gonna   be   boring.   Um   I   have   that,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:05</time>
      <p>
          Do   you   uh   so   do   you   teach   all   your   classes   in   French?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>8:08</time>
      <p>
          No,   no,   no,   no.   I   do.   I   do   give   well   the   CP   North   class   would   be   in   English,   of   course.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:12</time>
      <p>
          So   the   those   are   I&#39;m   in   the   university   classes.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>8:14</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah.   I   I   did   sometimes   I   give   um   when   we   have   um   students   from   outside   of   Canada   uh   quite   a   bit,   sometimes   they   do   give   bits   in   English.   I   answer   English   questions   in   English   to   help   people   on,   but   people   come   to   study   with   our   class   uh   in   our   classrooms,   they   do   have   to   learn   French   or   speak   French.   There&#39;s   a   video   game   uh   graduate   class   that   we   begin,   we&#39;ve   been   offering   for   17   years   now.   Uh   it&#39;s   a   full-time   uh   graduate   degree   for   people   who   want   to   come   in   and   uh   participate   in   game   development.   In   this   class,   there&#39;s   a   lot   of   French   from   France   students,   but   there&#39;s   also   Spanish   people,   there&#39;s   people   from   the   uh   Eastern   uh   from   Eastern   Europe,   from   South   America,   from   the   English-speaking   world   too.   And   uh   but   the   classes   are   in   French.   So   I   leave   them   as   much   as   I   can   when   they&#39;re   stuck,   but   otherwise,   well,   they&#39;re   learning   and   they&#39;re   doing   well.   Anyway,   they   want   to   work   in   Montreal,   so   learning   French   is   a   plus.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:10</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   important,   yeah.   So   are   there   any   are   there   any   challenges   to   teaching   um   uh   something   like   C   in   French?   C,   you   know,   the   the   the   language,   you   know,   and   the   constructs   of   the   language   are   obviously   sort   of   uh   very   English   centric   in   nature.   Are   there   any   you   know   challenges   that   come   out   of   that?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>9:31</time>
      <p>
          You   want   the   funny   ones?   Yes,   definitely.   So   something   like   length,   the   T   and   D   H,   they&#39;re   so   hard   to   write   for   French   speaking   people,   they   keep   mixing   them   up.   But   no,   no,   it&#39;s   not   that   difficult,   really.   It&#39;s   not   the   uh   most   uh   most   people   here   in   Montreal,   they   speak   they   speak   both   languages.   So   so   they   they   they   kind   of   have   the   basics   of   English   at   least.   Uh   coming   from   France,   those   who   come   from   France   they   do   have   some   basics   in   English   too,   so   they   kind   of   get   along.   Uh   if   you   ask   them   to   write   a   paper   for   you,   it   might   be   unpleasant   to   read   because   the   syntax   would   be   all   wrong,   but   you   know,   it&#39;s   not   nothing   that   difficult.   The   the   most   difficult   thing   is   getting   people   to   structure   their   thought,   and   that&#39;s   regardless   of   language.   So   um   the   writing   smaller   functions,   more   focused   classes,   uh,   stop   using   pointers   all   over   the   place   when   you   don&#39;t   need   them,   things   like   that.   And   that   has   nothing   to   do   with   English   or   French.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>10:26</time>
      <p>
          Interesting.   Yeah.   You   know,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   interesting   to   think   about,   you   know,   people   programming   um   uh   in   languages   other   than   English,   because   I   I&#39;m   not   really   aware   of   any   programming   languages   where   the   constructs   are   not   um   uh   or   the   keywords   are   not   sort   of   very   English   centric.   Um   there   are   some   there   are   some   called   network   equal   in   French.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>10:51</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   very   very   strange   when   you   look   at   it,   though   I&#39;ve   seen   that   there&#39;s   APL,   it   was   more   math-oriented.   There&#39;s   weird   things,   yeah.   There&#39;s   weird   things   like   white   space   where   you   know   everything   at   your   right,   that&#39;s   not   a   white   space   is   a   comment.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:04</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   but   are   there   any   languages   where   the   keywords   are   um   not   English   keywords?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>11:09</time>
      <p>
          As   I   said,   I   know   I   know   Windev   that   does   that.   Uh   I   sometimes   have   uh   people   having   internships   and   places   where   they   use   that,   but   it&#39;s   kind   of   I&#39;d   say   it&#39;s   understandable   do   you   think   of   it   because   you   want   to   reach   the   wider   audience   and   it&#39;s   the   labor   from   these   days.   So   if   you   C   sharp,   the   guy   who   wrote   that   is   Danish,   but   it&#39;s   an   English   language,   and   Bjarne   is   uh   from   the   Scandinavian   countries   too,   but   it&#39;s   you   know   your   audience   is   English.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:35</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   And   for   a   long   time   in   a   language   like   C,   um,   you   couldn&#39;t   have   non-ASCII   identifiers   or   even,   you   know,   there   were   there   were   some   compilers   that   would   reject   comments   if   they   were   not   ASCII.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>11:48</time>
      <p>
          And   if   I   may,   I   have   so   much   respect   for   the   SG16   people   who   are   working   on   Unicode   for   C.   My   uh   tip   to   them,   they   are   heroes.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:59</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   when   is   C   gonna   get   Unicode?   I   need   to   be   able   to   write   my   APL   compiler   and   C.   And   I   tell   you,   I   tell   you,   trying   to   trying   to   like   iterate   over   a   string   that   does   not   contain   UTF-8   or   the   256.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:13</time>
      <p>
          It   is   uh   You   should   you   should   try   Zach   Lane&#39;s   um   text   library,   which   I   think   is   part   of   boost   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:20</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   I&#39;ll   look   into   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:22</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   So   Kamara,   do   you   do   you   know   of   any   languages   that   have   non-uh   English   keywords?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:28</time>
      <p>
          We   I   think   we   asked   this   question   earlier   on   another   podcast   and   we   had   a   response   from   someone   on   Twitter   that   said,   Oh,   there   is   there   is   actually   a   language   and   they   link   me   to   it,   but   I   do   not   have   it   top   of   mind.   Um   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   throw   a   language   out   there   that   doesn&#39;t   have   non-English   keywords,   but   uh   it   has   a   very   interesting   character   set.   Um,   and   it&#39;s   called   Jelly.   I&#39;ll   just   leave   that   for   the   listener   to   go   explore.   Just   Google   Jelly   programming   language.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>12:56</time>
      <p>
          I   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   had   to   use   tricks   in   jobs   I&#39;ve   done   in   the   past.   So   in   the   recent   past,   that   brought   me   to   pre-C   98.   U   and   you   know   the   toolbox,   when   you   have   a   full   toolbox,   it&#39;s   very,   very   useful   in   those   moments.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:14</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   can&#39;t   imagine.   I   can&#39;t   imagine.   Uh   you   know,   C11,   that&#39;s   what   I   started   with   because   I   started   working   in   C   or   not   not   in   C.   I   started   working   in   the   year   2014   and   we   were   using   C11   at   that   point.   I   don&#39;t   even   think   the   full   feature   because   we   had   some   Visual   Studio   2000   something   that   only   had   like   half   of   the   features.   Still,   they   had   the   auto   keyword   and   lambdas   and   stuff   like   that.   And   um,   yeah,   I   can&#39;t   imagine   having   to   go   back.   And   every   time   you   want   a   callable,   you   have   to   build   a   function   object   in   the   form   of   a   struct   with   a   like   just   there&#39;s   so   many   things   that   like   I   took   for   granted   when   I   started   with   the   language,   and   you&#39;d   hear   about   people   being   like,   oh,   you   know,   you   don&#39;t   know   what   it   was   like,   and   I&#39;d   be   like,   I   don&#39;t   know,   it   seems   like   a   pretty   nice   language   to   me.   Um,   but   then   you   realize   that   there   were   the   I   wouldn&#39;t   want   to   call   them   the   dark   ages,   but   just   like   the   the   pre-C11   ages.   And   so   when   you   mentioned   pre-C   98,   that&#39;s   uh   I   I   can&#39;t   even,   yeah,   I   can&#39;t   even   imagine.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>14:08</time>
      <p>
          It   was   a   lot   of   fun   because   it   was   an   80   and   X   place   where   they   had   to   certify   the   binaries   that   they   were   generating.   So   they   had   to   compile   stuff   in   debug   mode   to   make   sure   it   was   the   readable   binaries,   then   they   certified   them   and   cost   so   much   that   they   didn&#39;t   want   to   change   the   compilers   in   any   way   to   make   sure   that   the   binaries   were   as   stable   as   they   could.   So   it   were,   we   were   using   compilers   I   had   not   used   in   my   23   years   of   teaching,   older   stuff   than   that.   So   I   had   to   really   pick   in   my   old   toolbox.   If   you   took   a   problem   like   doing   function   composition   f   of   g   of   x,   and   you   try   to   solve   that   problem   with   C   98,   11,   14,   17,   20,   the   the   evolution   of   the   way   you   solve   that   problem   is   amazing.   It&#39;s   gotten   so   simple   and   so   clean   and   so   efficient,   and   it   used   to   be   doable,   but   in   such   convoluted   ways.   Yeah,   there&#39;s   a   number   of   things   we   have   learned   over   time,   and   the   language   is   really   helping   us.   So,   yeah,   we&#39;re   gonna   solve   problems   in   many   different   manners   in   that   class.   And   I   think   it&#39;s   gonna   be   awesome.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:08</time>
      <p>
          So,   yeah,   Patrice,   Patrice,   you   haven&#39;t   always   been   a   professor,   right?   You   what   what   did   I   think   I   thought   you   worked   on   some   pretty   cool   stuff   for   your   professor?   Didn&#39;t   you   do   uh   uh   like   flight   simulators   or   something?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>15:20</time>
      <p>
          Uh   yeah,   I   I   I   did   I   did   research   for   Hydro   Quebec,   which   is   the   biggest   uh   company   in   Quebec   here.   It&#39;s   uh   state-owned   thing   where   we   produce   electricity.   And   since   we   have   a   lot   of   water   in   Quebec,   well,   we   have   a   lot   of   electricity.   And   we   after   that,   I   did   a   few   years   of   uh   military   flight   simulator   work,   indeed.   So,   what   do   you   want   to   know   about?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:41</time>
      <p>
          So,   was   that   was   that   all   was   that   all   in   C?   Was   that   in   like   C   in   the   early   C   days?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>15:48</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   so   now   now   you   want   the   stories.   Uh   when   I   got   there,   uh   the   reason   I   got   into   flight   simulators   at   first   was   that   I   had   gotten   a   scholarship   for   graduate   studies   and   I   had   a   baby,   and   another   baby   was   coming   along   that   was   not   expected.   And   I   looked   at   my   scholarship   and   said,   Oh,   we&#39;re   gonna   have   a   problem.   Money   is   not   gonna   be   sufficient.   So   I   applied   there   because   a   friend   told   me,   Yeah,   we&#39;re   looking   for   people.   I   went   there   and   they   asked   me,   Do   you   want   to   do   military   work?   And   I   said,   No,   I   don&#39;t.   And   they   still   hired   me   and   they   offered   me   a   job   doing   military   flight   simulators.   And   I   thought   about   saying   no,   and   then   I   looked   at   the   money   and   said,   Well,   I   had   no   choice.   But   I   really,   really   enjoyed   it.   I   learned   a   lot   of   stuff.   It   was   very   instructive.   It   was   a   milestone   in   my   uh   my   personal   development.   It   was   a   very   good   learning   experience.   Now,   when   I   got   there,   my   boss   was   a   Fortran   77   expert.   And   he   was   uh,   you   might   not   be   aware   of   that,   but   Fortran   77,   you   don&#39;t   have   local   variables,   everything   is   static.   So   if   you   were   trying   to   write   recursive   functions,   you&#39;re   gonna   have   a   lot   of   pleasure.   Um,   he   was   scared   of   using   the   stack   for   functions   because   uh   there   seemed   to   be   in   his   mind   a   cost   to   the   stack   pointer   being   incremented   and   incremented   in   code.   So   they&#39;re   there   just   selling   the   fact   that   we   had   local   variables   was   was   a   fight.   So   it   was   a   mix   of   forend77   and   size   and   C   C   that   we   had   to   do.   Now   I   I   was   a   C   aficionado   back   then   already,   with   the   C   I   knew,   which   was   much   more   limited   than   what   I   know   today.   So   I   had   built   a   framework   of   macros   to   make   my   uh   C   code   behave   kind   of   like   C   with   initialization   and   stuff,   uh,   which   generated   a   lot   of   code   because   it   was   um   I   tried   to   be   as   clean   as   I   could.   And   I   actually   saw   an   error   message   when   I   was   there   that   claimed   that   the   function   had   gotten   too   big   through   macros   and   the   computer   refused   to   optimize   it.   I   had   never   seen   that   before.   There   are   too   many   lines,   and   I   refuse   to   optimize   your   code   to   go   to   hell.   Kind   of   sounded   like   that.   So,   yeah,   so   I   did   that.   I   worked   on   uh   mostly   helicopters   uh   that   went   to   war,   but   also   uh   did   search   and   rescue.   I   worked   on   uh   communication   channels   and   I   worked   on   a   system   that   simulated   uh   voice   messages   within   the   uh   simulated   um   helicopters.   Voice   is   interesting   because   it&#39;s   a   real-time   system,   it&#39;s   hard   real   time.   Uh   the   people   in   the   uh   helicopter,   they   have   to   be   able   to   um   tune   in   to   a   radio   and   listen   to,   believe   it   or   not,   the   weather.   That&#39;s   very   important   for   them   because   they   don&#39;t   see   what   they&#39;re   doing   and   they&#39;re   guided   mostly   because   there&#39;s   always   like   fog   and   stuff.   And   they   want   to   go   to   such   and   such   airport   and   they   want   to   know   what   the   weather   is   to   actually   do   their   approach   properly   and   don&#39;t   kill   themselves   or   anything.   And   the   uh   executive   system   that   we   had   there,   so   it   was   a   layered   thing   with   uh   see   it   as   a   four-level   tree.   The   topmost   part   was   a   critical   band   where   things   have   to   be   done   at   every   iteration   of   the   system,   and   that&#39;s   life-saving   stuff.   And   as   you   go   along   down   the   tree,   uh   things   get   more   less   and   less   critical,   so   they   might   skip   turns   from   time   to   time.   And   I   happened   with   that   system   to   have   pieces   on   each   and   every   level   of   the   system,   so   I   got   the   whole   experience.   Yeah,   and   and   it   was   the   biggest   flight   simulator   in   the   world   back   then.   So   uh   by   far.   So   uh   it   was   seen   as   a   research   project,   but   our   motto   was   at   CAE,   we   can.   So   we   said   yes   to   everything,   regardless   whether   it   made   sense   or   not.   And   and   I   was   given   50   hours   to   take   this   bit   of   Fortran   code   that   worked   on   a   single   helicopter   and   make   it   work   on   a   system   of   helicopters   that   behaved   as   a   unit   when   sharing   a   world   through   many   machines,   not   pure   parallel   code.   It   was   uh   and   kind   of   concurrency   and   shared   memory   and   stuff,   which   of   course   made   no   sense.   It   took   three   hours   to   do.   So   it   was   the   three   hours,   three   years,   three   years   to   do   instead   of   50   hours.   It   was   crazy.   Um,   and   if   you   want   the   inside   story,   when   I   saw   this,   I   said   I&#39;m   never   gonna   write   that   in   Fortran   77.   Makes   no   sense   to   me.   It&#39;s   way   too   hard.   So   I   asked   for   a   budget   to   rewrite   it   in   C   because   C   was   out   of   the   question,   it   was   too   scary.   And   they   said,   no,   we   don&#39;t   have   the   money.   So   I   went   on   my   own   at   night   and   I   wrote   the   whole   thing   in   C   on   my   own   time,   and   I   committed   it   and   told   nobody   for   a   few   weeks.   And   when   everybody   saw   that   it   worked,   then   I   told   them,   and   everyone   was   relieved   because   nobody   wanted   to   do   that   in   Fortran   anyway.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:36</time>
      <p>
          But   yeah,   so   that   what   year   was   this?   When   was   this?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>20:41</time>
      <p>
          Uh   I   I   was   there   between   1995   and   1998.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:45</time>
      <p>
          Wow,   those   were   really   the   the   early   days   of   C   Foss,   and   you   were   already   using   using   it,   already   familiar   with   it.   Wow.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>20:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   started   using   C   around   1993   or   something.   Uh   I&#39;m   old,   sorry.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:03</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ll   say   this,   you   are   not   the   oldest   guest   we&#39;ve   had   on   the   podcast.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>21:07</time>
      <p>
          You&#39;re   very   sweet.   I   just   turned   50   like   a   few   weeks   back.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:10</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   then   then   not   not   even   you&#39;re   not   even   in   like   the   top   two   or   three   oldest   guests.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>21:19</time>
      <p>
          You&#39;re   very   sweet.   No,   I   don&#39;t   to   be   honest,   I   would   have   stayed   at   CE   if   I   had   not   gotten   a   teaching   opportunity,   but   I   wasn&#39;t   to   do   teaching   in   the   long   term.   And   when   I   got   an   offer,   I   said,   well,   if   I   don&#39;t   do   it   right   now,   I   might   never   do   it.   So   let&#39;s   just   do   the   move.   It   cost   me   a   lot   of   money   to   do   that   though,   because   I   was   well   paid   at   CE.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:38</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>21:39</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:39</time>
      <p>
          So   how   much   so   many   kids   do   you   have   now,   Patrice?   You   meant   you   mentioned   two.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:45</time>
      <p>
          I   can   hear   some   kittens   in   the   background.   I   was   really   hoping   we&#39;d   get   to   see   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>21:49</time>
      <p>
          Um   no,   they&#39;re   sleeping   right   now.   Most   of   them,   well,   I   just   fed   them   like   15   minutes   ago.   So   they&#39;re   most   of   the   15   minutes.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:55</time>
      <p>
          Who&#39;s   got   someone   someone   had   some   cats   or   something   that   was   going,   yeah.   And   uh   yeah,   I&#39;ll   keep   that   in.   I&#39;ll   keep   that   in.   Everyone&#39;s   gonna   get   to   hear   Connor   as   a   cat.   Um   I   do   know   you   have   a   lot   of   pets   though,   Patrice.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>22:06</time>
      <p>
          And   and   there   are   seven   cats   at   home.   There&#39;s   one   dog,   three   parrots,   a   hamster.   The   number   of   cats   has   gone   up   to   as   high   as   30   from   what   region.   Yeah,   yeah.   But   well,   we   have   a   shelter.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>22:19</time>
      <p>
          Okay.   I   was   about   to   say,   like   you   basically   have   a   farm   or   a   shelter,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>22:23</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I   have   a   wife   who   works   at   the   veterinarians   clinic   who&#39;s   an   expert   in   um   uh   cat   and   dog   nutrition.   So   she   can   so   she   works   from   home   mostly   and   she   uh   guides   people   who   have   problems.   It&#39;s   a   free   service.   So   people   just   call   the   the   dial   in   or   uh   the   the   schedule   meeting   with   her,   and   they   have   an   hour   and   she   listens   to   what   the   what   kind   of   problem   they   have,   and   they   she   guides   them   through   uh   their   uh   nutritionary   needs.   We   have   seven   cats   of   our   own,   they&#39;re   all   kind   of   weird,   like   with   weird   paws   or   weird   defects,   one   of   them   is   a   missing   uh   tail,   whatever.   And   we   take   um   in   Quebec,   most   people   move   around   July,   but   there&#39;s   a   tradition   where   first   of   July   everyone&#39;s   moving,   and   people   tend   to   abandon   their   cats   along   uh   around   that   time,   which   is   very   sad.   When   uh   we   were   leaving,   uh   our   previous   house   was   about   15   minutes   drive   from   where   I   live   now,   and   my   wife   was   uh   in   the   uh   was   uh   in   the   post   administration.   She   was   managing   kind   of   a   shelter   organization   where   they   rescued   cats,   sterilized   them,   vaccinated   them,   and   let   get   let   them   go.   When   they   got   pregnant   cats,   it   was   more   complicated   because   you   don&#39;t   want   to   sterilize   them   with   the   babies   then.   So   we   used   to   take   the   cats   then,   uh   the   uh   let   them   have   the   babies   and   then   sterilize   everyone   and   vaccinate   everyone   and   find   homes   for   them.   So   we   kept   on   doing   that   when   we   moved.   So   that&#39;s   why   sometimes   we   have   as   high   as   30   cats,   because   uh   there   was   one   time   two   years   ago,   three   years   ago,   when   we   had   four   pregnant   uh   cat   ladies   uh   in   the   span   of   a   month,   and   all   of   them   gave   birth   to   four   to   six   kittens.   So   they   each   had   their   own   room   such   that   they   didn&#39;t   fight,   and   there   were   seven   little   birth   with   seven   little   boxes   to   be   twice   a   day.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>24:11</time>
      <p>
          So   so   if   I   understand   correctly,   then   it   is   likely   that   you   will   that   right   before   C   North,   you   will   have   additional   cats   that   will   that   will   end   up   in   the   house   because   everybody&#39;s   moving   in   July   and   absolutely   probable.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>24:25</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   that&#39;s   the   kind   of   thing   that   tends   to   happen.   It&#39;s   happened   less   with   COVID   because   people   moved   less,   but   yes,   we   do   that.   And   and   then   then   why   do   we   do   that?   Because   we   can.   I   mean,   my   wife   is   good   at   this.   We   can   uh   when   they   need   special   um   medicational   treatment,   can   she   do   that?   We   can   prepare   milk   and   feed   them   when   the   ladies   cannot   do   that   with   small   uh   bible,   I   don&#39;t   know   what   the   English   word   for   that   is,   but   no,   when   you   feed   babies   with   bottles,   yeah.   So   we   can   do   that   with   cats,   they&#39;re   very   tiny   bottles.   And   yeah,   and   and   when   when   when   the   lady   cats   cannot   do   it,   because   already   they   kind   of   make   the   babies   to   make   them   uh   pee   and   stuff.   Well,   you   need   to   do   it   yourself.   You   need   to   put   the   baby   cats   on   top   of   the   uh   um   the   sink   or   the   toilet,   and   you   need   to   message   them   properly   such   that   the   pee   and   stuff   to   and   then   you   wash   your   hands,   of   course.   So   I   do   that   quite   a   lot.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>25:15</time>
      <p>
          How   how   we   I&#39;ve   do   you   put   pictures   of   these   cats   in   your   in   your   talks?   You   have   to   start   if   you   don&#39;t.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>25:22</time>
      <p>
          I   I   I   I&#39;ve   done   that   once   or   twice   with   a   few   cats,   but   my   my   wife   has   a   Facebook   account,   she   she   she&#39;s   more   of   a   picture   person   than   I   am.   But   I   haven&#39;t   done   that,   I&#39;m   not   a   big   picture   person,   but   I   have   done   talks   with   pictures   of   cats.   But   I   I   feel   I   I   it   feels   weird   to   me   to   to   advertise   that   during   my   talks,   but   I   do   talk   about   them.   And   you   talked   about   the   kids.   I   have   five.   There   are   only   two   left   at   home   because   theirs   are   all   gone.   One   of   them   is   going   to   be   a   kind   of   lawyer   soon,   one   of   them   is   a   dance   instructor,   one   of   them   is   a   uh   literature   major,   and   I   have   a   teenager   and   uh   young   uh   kid   who&#39;s   still   in   the   elementary   school.   And   you   teach   at   two   different   schools,   and   I   have   a   PhD,   which   I   did   along   the   way,   and   I   used   to   be   a   union   worker   too,   because   uh   I   used   to   be   part   of   the   teachers&#39;   union.   Well,   uh   one   of   the   executive   members,   and   I   do   work,   you   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>26:11</time>
      <p>
          What&#39;s   the   secret,   Patrice?
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>26:14</time>
      <p>
          Ask   Bryce   who   never   sleeps.   I   mean,   I   do   sleep   from   time   to   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:17</time>
      <p>
          Bryce   doesn&#39;t   sleep,   so   uh   no,   I   had   to   take   that   out   of   my   profile   signature   because   now   I   now   I   sleep.   My   my   email   signature   for   many   years   said   sleep   is   for   the   week,   but   now   I   uh   now   now   that   I&#39;m   an   old   man,   I   uh   I   go   to   sleep.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>26:35</time>
      <p>
          Well,   what   do   I   do?   Well,   when   I   feel   tired,   I   go   to   sleep.   I   can   tell   you   that.   And   uh   since   since   I   I&#39;ve   seen   Michael   Wong&#39;s   resume,   I   don&#39;t   feel   like   I   work   a   lot   anymore   because   my   Michael   is   is   ridiculously   busy.   It   makes   no   sense.   I   don&#39;t   know   how   he   does   it.   But   uh   yeah,   I   get   up   early,   I   go   to   bed   late,   and   I   try   to   do   a   proper   job.   You   know,   so   that&#39;s   what   I   do.   You   know   what&#39;s   what&#39;s   the   most   difficult   these   days?   It&#39;s   uh   there&#39;s   been   a   uh   lowering   in   literacy   skills.   So   people   learning   to   make   meaning   out   of   the   text   that   they   read.   So   in   university   in   college   these   days,   what   I   noticed   for   the   last   two,   three   years,   uh   you   have   to   repeat   more   what   you   say   because   people   they   can   read   out   loud   the   words,   but   the   phrases   don&#39;t   make   the   same   sense   to   them   as   it   used   to.   So   the   thing   I   say   the   most   these   days   is   please   reread   the   directives   to   make   sure   you&#39;ve   got   them   right.   Please   mark   down   what   you&#39;ve   done   because   you   probably   didn&#39;t   get   it   properly.   And   sometimes   they   gave   me   homework   back,   and   I   have   to   give   back   saying,   that&#39;s   not   why   I   asked,   please   do   it   again.   And   when   when   at   some   point   I   sit   down   with   them,   and   I&#39;ve   done   that   many   times   in   the   last   few   weeks,   I   read   out   loud   with   them   the   words   and   said,   I   never   saw   that   paragraph.   It&#39;s   the   first   one   in   the   actual   text,   but   they   just   came   over,   you   don&#39;t   see   it.   So   my   fight   these   days   is   make   sure   they   read   because   there&#39;s   been   a   lowering   during   COVID   times   of   reading   skills.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:57</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   was   just   about   to   ask,   you   said   you   said   the   last   one   to   two   years.   Do   you   think   that   that&#39;s   related   to   the   move   to   online?   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>28:04</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   pretty   sure   there&#39;s   an   impact   because   it   didn&#39;t   used   to   be   there&#39;s   always   problem   with   people   having   problems   with   their   reading   skills,   but   generalized   like   that,   and   so   that&#39;s   almost   half   of   the   students   these   days.   Interesting.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>28:15</time>
      <p>
          I   used   to   have   to   uh   at   the   top   of   my   exams,   I   would   write   RTQ,   which   stood   for   read   the   question.   And   this   is   not   necessarily   because   I   have   a   low   proficiency   in   in   in   reading,   like   I   read   quite   a   bit,   but   uh,   especially   with   math   exams,   I   get   very,   very   excited   because   I   know   I   like   I   see   the   structure   of   the   problem   in   a   few   numbers,   and   I   just   assume,   oh,   I   know   I   know   what   to   do   here.   And   then   I&#39;ll   end   up,   you   know,   there&#39;s   times   where   I   failed   tests   because   I   didn&#39;t   actually   read   what   it   was   asking   me   to   do.   And   I   just   sort   of   very   quickly   got   excited,   went   ahead   and   answered,   and   then   I   got   back   and   it   would   say,   you   know,   40%.   And   I&#39;d   be   like,   what?   What   happened?   I   like   I   nailed   that,   and   then   I   would   go   back   and   the   commentary   from   the   prof   or   the   teacher   would   be   like,   this   is   not   what   uh   you   know   was   requested,   you   know,   please   read   more   carefully.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>29:02</time>
      <p>
          And   uh   yeah,   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   sometimes   sometimes   there&#39;s   this   interesting   phenomenon   that   sometimes   people   that   have   a   high   um   reading   proficiency   um   and   who   can   read   very   quickly   um   uh   uh   will   have   trouble   like   recognizing   uh   an   error   in   a   text   because   they   read   through   it   so   quickly   that   they   like   you   know   they   they   they   just   complete   their   mind,   their   head   just   like   corrects   whatever   the   error   was   um   in   in   the   sentence.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>29:30</time>
      <p>
          Sorry   about   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>29:31</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>29:33</time>
      <p>
          If   if   you&#39;ll   allow   me,   we   used   to   me   what   me   and   one   of   my   close   colleagues,   we   used   to   have   this   exam   we   passed   to   first-year   students,   uh   like   midway   uh   through   the   semester   where   there   were   um   objective   questions.   So   you   have   a   choice   of   answers,   and   in   one   of   them,   the   answer   was   pseudocode.   And   but   we   put   pseudopod   POD   instead   of   code,   which   is   a   um   tentacle   as   first   answer,   and   pseudocode   was   the   fourth   one,   and   the   only   ones   that   missed   it   were   the   good   students   because   they   read   too   quickly.   So   they   saw   the   first   word,   and   I   used   to   give   them   uh   I   used   to   draw   small   uh   uh   squids   and   hand   them   over   in   the   class   in   public   saying   you   got   a   prize   today   because   you   read   too   quickly.   So   yeah,   you   only   hit   the   bad   word   the   good   students   with   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:21</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   funny.   My   dad   would   always   joke   to   me,   like   when   I   was   in   high   school,   and   if   I   did   poorly   on   something,   he&#39;d   ask   me   and   I&#39;d   say,   ah,   I   didn&#39;t   do   that   good.   But   I   mean,   that&#39;s   just   because   I   didn&#39;t   read   the   question   correctly   or   whatever.   And   you   know,   so   I   I   knew   what   I   was   doing,   I   just   didn&#39;t.   And   if   we   went   on   into   university,   and   like   whenever   I   would   talk   to   him   on   the   phone,   uh,   he   would   just   like   he   just   heard   a   chuckle   because   like   is   his   joke   is   like,   Oh,   you   didn&#39;t   read   the   question,   oh   surprise,   surprise,   you   know,   that   uh   you   did   the   only   reason   you   did   poorly   is   not   because   you   prepare   didn&#39;t   prepare.   It&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   because   you   don&#39;t   have   time   to   like   do   the   most   important   thing,   which   is   to   figure   out   what   what   the   test   or   the   class   is   asking   from   you.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>30:58</time>
      <p>
          Well,   at   the   level   where   we   are,   it&#39;s   reading   your   messages.   I   mean,   we   get   professionals,   they   don&#39;t   read   messages   well   enough,   but   they   they&#39;re   often   quite   talkative,   you   know.   You   so   you   when   you   read   them   properly,   you   kind   of   grasp   the   gist   of   what&#39;s   missing   if   you   have   to   work   your   way   through.   So   making   them   learn   to   read   their   messages   is   a   fight   because   after   two   years   in   school,   they   still   don&#39;t   do   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:19</time>
      <p>
          What&#39;s   super,   super   interesting   about   that   is   a   lot   of   the   times   in   a   production   code   base,   you&#39;ll   get   some   crazy   template,   you   know,   template   metaprogramming,   you   know,   100   lines,   everyone&#39;s   seen   it.   And   my   gut   reaction   is   like,   I   don&#39;t   know   what   this   is   doing.   And   then   I&#39;ll   go   to   Godbolt,   I&#39;ll   get   some   minimal,   you   know,   reproducing   version   of   it,   and   it&#39;ll   be   the   same   sort   of   error,   but   like   now,   because   it&#39;s   a   minimal,   you   know,   reproduce   and   like   I   know   exactly   what&#39;s   happening,   I&#39;ll   just   read   it   and   it&#39;ll   actually   tell   me,   like   in   the   midst   of   all   the   garbage,   like   the   exact   problem,   which   the   previous   error   actually   also   said.   I   just,   I   just   like   I   saw   it   and   my   eyes   glazed   over,   and   I   was   like,   Oh,   I&#39;ll   go   fix   this   in   God   bolt.   But   like   it&#39;s   like   you   said,   a   lot   of   the   times   the   error   messages,   like   in   the   midst   of   all   the   angle   brackets,   there   is   actually   like   very   specifically   what   your   issue   is.   If   you   had   just   taken   the   time   to   read   it,   which   I   rarely   do,   I   just   go   to   God   bolt.   So   there&#39;s   something   there   that,   like,   you   know,   we   we   always   complain   about   how   awful   they   are,   but   like   a   lot   of   the   times   in   the   midst   of   that   awfulness   is   actually   like   the   key   to   the   problem.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>32:21</time>
      <p>
          Um,   we   just   don&#39;t   think   you&#39;re   making   a   point   for   writing   smaller   functions   and   smaller   meta   functions.   And   if   you   write   small   things,   it&#39;s   so   much   easier   to   find   your   way   around.   You   almost   don&#39;t   debug   if   you   don&#39;t   do   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:30</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah,   that&#39;s   true.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:32</time>
      <p>
          Well,   one   thing   that   I   I   I&#39;ve   run   into   that   a   lot   too,   Connor.   And   I   do   the   same   thing   where   if   it&#39;s   can   if   it&#39;s   looks   like   it&#39;s   gonna   be   hard,   I&#39;ll   just   go   to   Godball   to   try   to   reproduce   it   there,   especially   a   lot   of   the   bugs,   because   I&#39;m   mostly   working   compilers   these   days,   a   lot   of   the   problems   that   I   run   into   are   um   bugs   that   are   actually   in   the   compiler.   And   so   if   it&#39;s   a   compiler   bug,   if   I   think   it&#39;s   a   compiler   bug,   my   first   reaction   of   is   to   reduce   it   down   to   um,   you   know,   the   form   that   a   compiler   writer   wants   it   in,   which   is,   you   know,   pure   like   ideally   pre-processed   source   code   that&#39;s   like   minimized,   that   has   no   includes   or   anything,   so   that   it&#39;s   you   know,   an   easy   test   input   to   reproduce.   Um,   but   one   thing   that   I&#39;ve   uh   often   done   with   uh   more   complex   template   errors   is   I&#39;ll   dump   the   error   message   to   a   text   file.   Um,   and   then   that   lets   me   go   and   do   some   reformatting   of   it.   Um   if   it&#39;s   an   if   it&#39;s   an   error   message   where   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   complaining   about   like,   you   know,   the   second   argument,   the   second   template   argument   in   like   a   template   that   has   like   four   or   five   arguments,   and   like   maybe   one   of   them&#39;s   like,   you   know,   just   a   string   of   like   nonsense.   Um,   you   know,   the   the   default   way   that   most   compellers   format   that   um   is   just   to   give   it   to   you   all   as   one   long   line.   And   so   oftentimes   if   I   take   it   into   a   text   editor   and   I   if   I   just   like   start   manipulating   it,   like   put   each   argument   on   one   line,   then   it   becomes   a   lot   easier   for   me   to   figure   out   oh,   this   is   actually   what   the   problem   was.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>33:54</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   you&#39;re   making   a   point   for   indentation   of   code   too,   is   the   same   thing.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>33:58</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah,   exactly,   exactly.   On   the   other   hand,   some   of   some   of   the   other   compilers   I   work   with,   um,   they   try   to   do   that   sort   of   formatting   for   you   um   uh   in   their   error   messages.   And   it&#39;s   like   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   the   it&#39;s   hard   to   identify   what   the   optimal   formatting   of   an   error   message   is   going   to   be   for   like   in   the   generic   case.   And   so   I   think   oftentimes   it&#39;s   good   for   us   as   programmers   to   take   the   error   diagnostic   and   then   like   see   if   we   can   sort   it   into   something   that&#39;s   a   little   bit   more   manageable   ourselves.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>34:28</time>
      <p>
          I   think   there&#39;s   a   there&#39;s   a   tool   that   Vittorio   Romeo   has   written   that   I   do   not   recall   the   name   of,   but   it   actually   is   like   you   pipe   your   compilation   uh   into   this,   and   then   you   can   set   the   level   of   like   uh   nesting   of   the   brackets   that   it   shows.   So   by   default,   it   like   collapses   all   of   it,   and   then   you   get   like   a   much   more   succinct,   and   like   the   idea   is   you   can   keep   running   it   and   increasing   the   level   until   the   message   that   you   or   the   info   that   you   need   is   there,   which   is   kind   of   a   neat   idea.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>34:57</time>
      <p>
          Um   one   interesting   problem   that   we   have   in   the   C   space   is   the   question   of   um   uh   when   you   dump   out   an   error   um   that&#39;s   got   um   some   sort   of   uh   stack   to   it,   you   know,   like   template   instantiation   uh   stack,   um,   uh,   you   know,   which   direction   do   you   do   you   output?   Most   compilers   um   uh   output   um   uh   from   like   like   the   original   source   of   the   error   all   the   way   down   to   where   it   was   triggered   from.   Um   and   I   think   that&#39;s   actually   not   very   helpful   um   because   like   you   you   see   it   then   when   you   get   this   long   error   dump,   the   last   thing   is   going   to   be   the   first   thing   that   you   see.   The   last   part   of   the   error   message   will   be   the   first   thing   you   see.   And   if   you   see   instantiated   from   here   within   main,   you   know,   the   place   where   it   was   instantiated   from   is   maybe   not   the   most   helpful   thing.   Oftentimes   the   most   helpful   thing   is   what   the   the   root   of   that   of   that   tree   of   this   was   the   error   that   happened.   Um,   I   think   the   only   compiler   I&#39;ve   seen   that   does   it   the   inverse   direction,   if   I   recall   correctly,   is   I   think   circle   does   it   the   other   way   around,   um,   which   I   have   found   to   be   quite   interesting.   I&#39;d   love   to   see   that   be   a   switch   for   which   direct   which   which   uh   you   know   to   reverse   the   template   instantiate   the   error   instantiation   like   message   order.   I&#39;d   love   to   see   a   switch   for   that   so   that   I   could   I   I   would   probably   switch   it   by   default   because   like   almost   always   what   I   do   is   I   is   I   scroll   up   to   the   start   of   the   error   and   I   read   the   error   from   the   start   down.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>36:22</time>
      <p>
          Do   we   need   the   clang   format   kind   of   tool   for   error   messages?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>36:26</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   I   was   just   thinking   that.   I   was   thinking   I   want   clang   format   for   error   messages.
      </p>

        <cite>Patrice Roy</cite>
      <time>36:31</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   that   would   be   cool.   It   would   be   an   actually   nice   project   to   write.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>36:35</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   somebody,   somebody   get   on   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>36:36</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I&#39;m   sure   there&#39;s   something   out   there.   Um   after   this   podcast,   there   will   be.   Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>