

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   thought   there   would   be   negativity.   I   really   did.   I   thought   people   would   be   like,   how   could   you   do   that   to   C?   How   could   you   betray,   you   know,   WG21   like   this?   And   that   hasn&#39;t   been   the   case   at   all.   People   from   the   committee   have,   you   know,   saw   it   before   the   launch.   People   have   seen   it   since.   They   say,   oh,   yeah,   that   might   work   for   some   problems.   Because   there   are   some   problems,   right?   That   are   not   tractable   problems.   Then   it&#39;s   another   FAQ.   Why   don&#39;t   you   just   improve   C?   Like,   well.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:36</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast   episode   95,   recorded   on   August   15th,   2022.   My   name   is   Connor.   Today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   finished   our   four-part   interview   with   Kate   Gregory   and   talked   to   her   about   the   carbon   programming   language.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>0:53</time>
      <p>
          So   the   conference   went   better   than   I   could   possibly   have   expected.   The   carbon   launch   also   went   very   differently   than   I   could   have   expected.   A   lot   of   the   things   I   was   really   scared   might   have   happened   did   not   happen.   And   a   bunch   of   things   happened   that   were   fantastic   that   I   was   not   expecting.   So,   you   know,   uh,   Chandler   said   in   a   keynote,   join   us,   and   people   did.   Very   large   numbers   of   people   joined.   And   while   some   people   um   were   perhaps   not   offering   constructive   help   and   suggestions,   a   bunch   of   people   really   were.   So,   you   know,   from   the   very   next   day,   there   were   people   saying,   Hey,   would   a   would   a   syntax   highlighter   for   VS   Code   be   helpful?   I   think   I   can   do   a   Vim   plugin,   I   think   I   can   this,   and   people   starting   to   discuss.   See,   you   haven&#39;t   settled   all   the   designs   for   let&#39;s   say   Lambdas   or   something.   Uh,   three   or   four   people   start   getting   together,   hashing   that   out.   Um,   and   things   are   things   are   getting   done.   So   some   things   that   were   designed   but   not   coded   in   the   explorer   are   getting   coded   in   the   explorer.   Some   things   are   getting   designed,   some   decisions   are   getting   made.   Very   happy.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   just   went   and   pulled   it   up   to   see   uh   it&#39;s   since   the   launch.   So   today   is   August   15th,   so   we&#39;re   almost   a   month   exactly   out,   just   less   than   a   month,   I   guess.   And   um   on   GitHub   it   has   25.8,000   stars,   which   is   pretty   remarkable.   Yeah.   And   already   over   a   thousand   forks.   I   don&#39;t   know   actually   what   those   were,   but   I   assume   those   were   like,   you   know,   less   than   you   know,   either   single-digit   or   double-digit   numbers.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>2:18</time>
      <p>
          Before   we   launched,   there   were   a   few   dozen   people   involved.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>2:22</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:24</time>
      <p>
          It   was   11   stars   and   it   was   either   11   stars   and   three   forks   or   three   forks   and   eleven   stars.   And   I   think   it   was   probably   the   other   way   around,   probably   three   stars   and   eleven   forks   uh   before.   I   remember   because   I   I   checked,   right,   as   the   announcement   went   out.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>2:42</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   and   it&#39;s   up   to   I   think   it   said   87   contributors   or   something.   And   if   you   look   at   the   amount   of   code   pushed,   it   has   just   sort   of   looking   at   since   they   started   commits   over   a   couple   years   ago.   Looks   like   it   quadrupled   in   the   month   of   July.   So   clearly   a   lot   of   um   active   uh   development   happening   in   the   last   um   in   the   last   month   here.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>3:07</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   was   looking   to   see   if   I   could   figure   out   how   many   people   were   on   the   Discord,   but   I   don&#39;t   know   how   to   do   that.   And   by   and   large,   they&#39;re   they&#39;re   very   understanding   of   our   atmosphere   and   our   code   of   conduct   and   what   we&#39;re   trying   to   do.   Um   the   first   couple   weeks   there   was   a   lot   of   repetition.   There   was   a   lot   of   like,   I   don&#39;t   get   it.   It&#39;s   just   rust.   Why   not   just   use   rust?   And   then   the   answer   to   that   question   is   yes,   if   you   can   use   rust,   you   should   totally   use   rust.   Like,   this   is   not   a   competitor   to   that.   If   rust   works   for   you,   use   rust.   And   then   people   are   like,   well,   you   don&#39;t   really   mean   that.   That&#39;s   just   a   thing   you&#39;re   saying.   Nope.   Nope,   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   what   I   mean.   And   then   there   was   a   bunch   of   really   repetitive   uh   questions   and   suggestions   that   we&#39;d   we&#39;d   already   dealt   with.   Huge   number   of   people   wanting   a   logo.   Like,   I   don&#39;t   this   is   an   age   thing.   They&#39;re   like,   you   have   to   have   a   logo.   You   have   to   have   a   logo.   People   won&#39;t   take   you   seriously   if   you   don&#39;t   have   a   logo.   I&#39;ll   make   you   a   logo   for   free.   No,   we   we   don&#39;t   have   a   logo.   Yeah,   but   you   should   have   a   logo.   Yeah,   but   we   got   we   got   bigger   fish   to   fry.   We   don&#39;t   we   don&#39;t   want   a   logo.   I&#39;ll   make   you   one,   and   that   went   on   for   for   some   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:10</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I   personally   love,   I   mean,   like   the   banners   on   most   of   my   social   media   stuff,   whether   that&#39;s   LinkedIn   or   Twitter   or   YouTube,   are   just   a   collection   of   programming   language   logos.   However,   I   don&#39;t   actually   feel   like   Carbon   needs   one   yet   because   if   you&#39;ve   watched   uh   Chandler&#39;s   uh   keynote,   this   is   yet   to   be   like,   you   know,   it   they&#39;re   in   sort   of   still   experiment   mode.   Like   I   get   the   feeling   that   like   if   in   six   months   a   certain   like   in   the   decision   tree,   a   certain   number   of   decisions   are   taken,   it   doesn&#39;t   seem   like   it   it&#39;s   going   in   that   direction   at   all.   But   like   a   part   of   launching   it,   uh   it   wasn&#39;t   like   we&#39;re   launching   and   like   when   when   Swift   and   Apple   um   were   launched   at   a   WWDC.   This   was   here   is   Swift,   it&#39;s   our   new   language.   Right.   Um   and   the   same   with   Kotlin,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>5:00</time>
      <p>
          Here&#39;s   this   language,   we   want   you   to   learn   it,   we   want   you   to   start   using   it,   it&#39;s   supported   in   these   tools,   and   and   carbon   is   nowhere   near   that,   you   know?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>5:08</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   pre-1.0,   and   although   it   doesn&#39;t   seem   like   it&#39;s   going   the   direction   that   it   would   get,   I   don&#39;t   know   what   the   word   is,   defunded   or   decided   that   you   know   we   don&#39;t   need   this.   It&#39;s   before   the   point   that   that   Google   has   said,   you   know,   this   is   one   of   our   goals,   like   they   have   some   internal   term.   Um,   although,   and   that   shouldn&#39;t   mention   it&#39;s   not   a   Google   project.   It&#39;s   just   that   it&#39;s   starting   out   a   lot   of   Google   folks.   It&#39;s   similar   to   some   other   projects,   like   I   think   Kubernetes   is   one   of   them,   right?   Started   at   Google,   but   then   it   got   put   on   a   little   org   boat   and   floated   off   into   the   sea,   and   now   it&#39;s   no   longer   have   its   own   foundation   and   its   own   governance   and   and   its   own   goals.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>5:45</time>
      <p>
          You   know,   because   part   of   the   issue   is,   and   the   three   of   us   have   have   group   groupally   and   individually   talked   about   this   before.   The   committee   process   for   C   is   perhaps   not   serving   the   language   well.   Right?   Bryce,   you   said   you   joined   basically   to   get   MD   span,   and   you   said   how   many   years   ago   that   was.   Yeah,   it   took   seven   years.   Yeah.   You   know,   not   everybody   would   have   had   the   gumption   to   stick   with   that   for   seven   years.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>6:14</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   the   you   know,   uh   one   of   my   one   of   my   colleagues   um   likes   to   say   that   uh   a   programming   language   needs   uh   to   be   10x   better   than   its   competitors   in   in   some   way.   Well,   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   know   whether   I   don&#39;t   know   yet   whether   carbon   is   10x   better   than   any   of   its   competitors   on   any   particular   technical   aspect,   but   it&#39;s   definitely   10x   better   than   C   in   terms   of   process.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>6:42</time>
      <p>
          I   I   think   so.   The   process   in   the   community   is   a   big   part   of   the   appeal   for   me.   But   there   are   people   who   tell   us   that   we&#39;re   naive   and   that   when   we   want   to   play   in   the   big   leagues   and   get   support   from   major   compiler   vendors   and   blah   blah   that   will   discover   the   advantages   of   a   different   process.   I   don&#39;t   think   so.   I   think   this   is   a   process   that   can   scale   and   can   be   leveraged,   especially   with   the   the   leads   structure,   so   we   don&#39;t   we&#39;re   not   always   voting   amongst   you   know   10,000   random   strangers,   some   of   whom   would   just   vote   for   Bodhi   McBoatface   because   they   think   it&#39;s   funny.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>7:17</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   uh   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   I   it&#39;s   certainly   it&#39;s   probably   true   that   the   carbon   process   will   evolve   as   the   language   evolves.   Um   but   the   fact   that   the   process   can   evolve   in   and   of   itself   is   a   huge   improvement   over   the   C   process.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>7:34</time>
      <p>
          I   think   so.   I   I&#39;m   also   very,   very   excited   about   deliberately   rejecting   backwards   compatibility.   They&#39;re   just   saying,   like,   we   might   change   the   language   in   a   way   that   breaks   your   code.   And   when   we   do   that,   we   will   release   a   tool   that   will   migrate   your   code,   but   we&#39;re   not   just   gonna   forever   stick   to   well,   this   was   how   it   was   in   1972,   and   so   it   can   never   change,   right?   So,   I   mean,   the   joke   about   all   our   defaults   being   wrong   in   C   is   not   a   joke,   it&#39;s   the   truth.   All   our   defaults   are   wrong   because   the   language   was   was   written   a   certain   way,   and   then   people   said   that   might   be   wrong,   we   should   have   this   other   capability,   but   we   had   to   make   old   codes   still   work.   So,   like   uh   explicit   for   constructors.   That   you   have   to   say,   if   you   don&#39;t   say   anything,   can&#39;t   break   your   old   code,   can&#39;t   say   all   constructors   are   explicit.   But   in   carbon,   we   could   we   could   say   we   were   wrong,   all   constructors   are   explicit   unless   you   mark   them   implicit,   and   then   we&#39;d   give   you   a   tool   that   would   go   through   your   code   and   find   all   your   constructors   and   mark   them   implicit.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>8:42</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   surprised   I&#39;m   surprised   to   hear   that   you   heard   from   certain   folks   that   uh   when   carbon   took   some   step   into   what   you   mentioned   is   the   big   leagues,   that   they   would   discover   the   process   wouldn&#39;t   work   because   isn&#39;t   it   already   sort   of   proven?   Like,   not   that   carbon&#39;s   process   is   identical   to   Swift&#39;s   or   Rust&#39;s   or   any   number   of   languages,   but   like   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   proven   model   that   you   don&#39;t   need   to   be   an   ice,   or   I&#39;m   not   sure   exactly   what   they   were   saying,   like   you&#39;ll   discover   that   what   C   ⁇   is   doing   right,   but   like   it   seems   that   like   in   general,   uh   at   least   from   what   I&#39;ve   heard,   that   like   C   is   not   like   the   model   of   modern   process   like   evolving   languages.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>9:21</time>
      <p>
          Like   they&#39;re   so   there&#39;s   a   whole   there&#39;s   a   whole   series   of   languages   that   say   that&#39;s   too   slow,   too   corporate,   too   exclusive.   Like   it&#39;s   very   gatekeepy,   you   know.   Yeah   um   if   you   can&#39;t   fly   to   Hawaii,   you   you   can&#39;t   vote.   Uh   yeah,   you   know,   that&#39;s   a   hard   that&#39;s   a   hard   thing   to   say   these   days,   especially   after   the   pandemic.   People   are   like,   no,   we   should   all   be   able   to   get   on   a   Zoom   call   and   we   should   all   be   equivalent,   you   know,   we   should   all   be   peers.   Um   but   you   know,   maybe   some   things   are   hard   to   scale.   Maybe   secrecy   has   some   value   in   some   places.   Being   super   open   and   super   transparent   maybe   would   keep   some   people   away.   I   don&#39;t   know.   We&#39;ll   see.   We   don&#39;t   have   to   be   the   programming   language   for   everybody,   we   just   have   to   be   a   good   programming   language.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>10:11</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I&#39;m   surprised   to   hear   that   that&#39;s   what   you&#39;ve   heard.   Because   if   anything,   I   think   that   like   most   modern   languages   are   all   sort   of   following   suit   that   they&#39;ve   got   ways   to   discuss   things   online   and   make   decisions   online.   And   um   not   to   say   that   there&#39;s   nothing   good   about   ISO.   There&#39;s   definitely   advantages   to   ISO,   but   uh   yeah,   especially   like   when   you   keep   in   mind   some   of   the   things   that   we&#39;ve   brought   up   on   this   podcast.   What   did   Bryce   remark   that   you   know   the   visa   wait   times   for   certain   countries?   I   think   you   were   talking   about   was   it   India   at   that   one   point,   and   it   was   like   you   checked   at   one   time   and   it   was   like   700   plus   days,   and   then   when   you   rechecked   it   was   300   or   something,   and   so   it&#39;s   like,   well,   you   know,   depending   on   when   you   check,   you   know,   you   might   be   able   to   go,   maybe   not   next   year,   but   like   two   years   from   now,   and   it&#39;s   like,   well,   these   committee   meetings   happen   once   every   three   months,   or   at   least   they   did   when   before   the   pandemic   took   place,   and   it&#39;s   uh   and   it&#39;s   not   just   the   time,   it&#39;s   like   so   I   needed   a   visa   to   go   to   China.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>11:07</time>
      <p>
          I   very   rarely   need   a   visa   to   go   anywhere.   And   you   know,   they   say   things   like   list   everywhere   you&#39;ve   been   for   the   last   ten   years,   everywhere   you   slept   a   night   that   wasn&#39;t   your   home   for   the   last   ten   years.   That&#39;s   a   lot   to   ask   a   person   uh   to   produce   that   information   or   to   even   to   write   it   up   if   they   happen   to   know   it,   you   know.   And   I   think   that   the   money   is   non-trivial   either.   Uh   academics   tell   me   that   it   it   can   cost   a   thousand   dollars   to   apply   for   a   visa.   That&#39;s   a   lot   of   money.   We   just   talked   about   how   little   money   graduate   students   make,   you   know,   you   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:40</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   mean,   yeah,   and   then   you&#39;ll   hear   about   the   there&#39;s   a   $250   stipend   for   conference   travels   and   stuff,   and   it&#39;s   like,   oh   well,   that   is   helpful.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>11:48</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   that   covers   one   night   of   hotel,   maybe.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   So   I   I   understand   the   value   of   being   in   a   room   together.   Um,   I&#39;ve   really   missed   it   over   the   last   little   while,   and   I   was   very,   very   happy   to   get   back   to   it   with   in-person   conferences.   Uh,   and   I   know   that   hybrid   is   expensive.   Like,   you   know,   we   didn&#39;t   run   CPP   North   Hybrid,   and   a   lot   of   people   have   been   like,   every   conference   should   be   hybrid.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   a   violation   of   you   know   human   rights   not   to.   And   I&#39;m   like,   oh,   I   must   have   missed   the   part   where   you&#39;re   giving   me   the   money   to   run   the   hybrid   conference   because   it&#39;s   like   a   very   expensive   thing   to   do,   right?   Um   I   just   I   would   love   to   make   everything   accessible   to   everybody.   I   would.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:27</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   accessibility   is   um,   I   mean,   we&#39;ve   mentioned   that   before,   is   that   we   would   love   to,   at   some   point   when   we   get   sponsored   for   it,   we   will   love   to   have   transcripts   for   all   of   our   episodes.   And   my   other   podcast   does   do   transcripts,   but   the   amount   of   time,   and   it&#39;s   not   completely   actually   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   they   spend   money,   but   like   you   can   get   you   can   pay   for   transcripts.   Um,   but   it   is   currently   not   a   cheap   thing   to   do.   Like   um   a   lot   of   them   are   by   the   minute.   So   if   you   have   hour-long   podcasts,   um,   that   totals   up   to   you   know   a   couple   thousand   dollars   a   year.   And   um   yeah,   and   and   more   more   importantly,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   time.   Like   it   does   take   a   lot   of   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>13:02</time>
      <p>
          So   like   uh   with   the   Plurisight   courses,   they   come   out   almost   immediately   with   a   machine-generated   transcript,   which   is   basically   useless.   Um,   and   then   some   number   of   days   or   weeks   later,   a   human   has   gone   through   and   edited   that   transcript,   and   then   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   great.   And   I   use   it   all   the   time   because   someone   will   say,   Could   you   explain   whatever   to   me?   And   I&#39;ll   go   into   my   own   course,   bring   up   the   transcript,   search   for   that   word,   yeah,   uh,   and   then   I   can   find   that   explanation,   and   it   links   back   to   the   exact   moment   in   the   clip,   and   I&#39;m   like,   Oh,   sure.   In   module   seven,   clip   two,   at   the   one-minute   time   mark,   you   will   see.   And   I   don&#39;t   know,   maybe   they   think   I   have   the   whole   course   memorized.   I&#39;m   just   searching   the   transcript,   you   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:42</time>
      <p>
          That   is   a   great   hack,   not   just   for   uh   looking   up   course   stuff,   but   like   on   every   YouTube   video,   they   have   transcripts   automatically   generated,   and   you   can   do   the   exact   same   thing.   If   I&#39;m   ever   looking   for   quotes   from   whether   it&#39;s   Kate   or   you   know,   Sean   or   someone,   you   can   just   open   up   the   transcript,   search   for,   rotate,   yeah,   and   uh   and   then   go   and   click   next   next   a   couple   times   and   find   a   quote   and   then   um   and   then   click   to   that   bit   and   play   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>14:06</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   fantastic.   I   mean,   the   this   is   the   whole   curb   cut   thing,   right?   You   do   something   to   help   one   group,   but   it   turns   out   to   help   a   ton   of   people.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:13</time>
      <p>
          Um   and   I   I   found   you   should   probably   explain   what   curb   cuts   are.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>14:17</time>
      <p>
          So   the   the   cur   so   I   don&#39;t   even   live   in   the   city,   but   I   used   to   live   in   the   city,   and   if   there&#39;s   a   curb,   a   little   piece   of   raised   cement   at   the   edge   of   the   road,   to   bump   down   that   in   a   wheelchair   is   uncomfortable   and   difficult,   and   to   bump   up   it   may   be   impossible.   So   you   get   them   to   cut   a   gap   there   so   that   there&#39;s   a   smooth   uh   entrance   from   the   road   up   to   the   sidewalk.   But   it   turns   out   that   it   helps   not   just   people   in   wheelchairs   and   people   with   walkers,   but   people   who   are   pushing   strollers   and   people   who   are   uh   wheeling   dollies   full   of   something   they&#39;re   delivering   and   what   have   you,   and   that   perhaps   ten   times   as   many   quote   unquote   able-bodied   people   benefit   from   the   accommodation   as   the   people   that   you   justified   doing   it   for.   And   so   the   same   with   closed   captioning,   people   say,   well,   how   how   many   people   come   to   a   conference   who   can&#39;t   hear?   Well,   first   of   all,   more   than   you&#39;d   think,   because   my   son   works   for   a   hearing   aid   company,   and   when   I   mention   that,   people   tell   me   they   wear   hearing   aids.   That   can&#39;t   tell   you   how   many   times   that&#39;s   happened   to   me.   People   say,   Oh,   well,   I&#39;m   a   hearing   aids,   and   they   they   won&#39;t   tell   you   otherwise.   So   there&#39;s   an   awful   lot   of   people   who   could   use   some   help   when   it   comes   to   hearing,   but   there   are   also   people   who   are   brave   enough   to   go   to   a   conference   in   their   second   language,   which   I   would   never   dream   of   doing,   or   they&#39;re   fifth,   and   the   written   material   helps   them   uh   to   understand   the   the   the   what   they&#39;re   hearing,   or   the   speaker   has   a   bit   of   an   accent   and   the   written   material   helps.   So   there&#39;s   so   many   things   that   we   do   them   for   people   with   a   condition   that   we   sort   of   feel   sorry   for   and   we   have   to   help   them,   but   it   turns   out   it&#39;s   actually   more   useful   to   this   huge   other   chunk   of   folk.   And   publishing   the   menus   is   very   useful   if   you   can&#39;t   eat   a   particular   food,   but   it   was   super   useful   for   everyone   else.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>15:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   Even   even   folks,   yeah,   completely   able-body.   Like   when   you   were   talking   about   the   curb   cutting,   I   was   thinking,   I&#39;m   sure   there&#39;s   like   a   percentage   of   people   that   have   no   problems   with   you   know   taking   that   step   up   that   just   you   know,   10%   of   people   trip   every   once   in   a   while   because   there&#39;s   a   little   higher,   and   it&#39;s   just   less   people   are   tripping.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:08</time>
      <p>
          Or   or   if   you   have   if   you   have   luggage,   if   you   have   suitcases.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:12</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>16:12</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   mean,   there&#39;s   and   it   turns   out   like   they   say   that   if   you&#39;re   if   you&#39;re   not   disabled,   you&#39;re   really   just   not   disabled   yet.   Right?   At   some   point,   maybe   you&#39;ll   break   your   arm   and   you&#39;ll   have   your   arm   in   a   cast   for   some   number   of   weeks,   and   you&#39;ll   be   very   glad   of   those   buttons   that   you   can   hit   with   your   elbow   to   open   the   door.   Um   there&#39;s   an   apartment   building   that   I   go   to   a   lot,   and   it   has   automatic   door   openers,   but   not   at   the   door   that   has   stairs   up   to   it.   Everywhere   else   there&#39;s   automatic   door   openers.   And   they&#39;re   like,   no,   if   you   can   walk   upstairs,   you   can   open   a   door.   And   I&#39;m   like,   that&#39;s   not   that&#39;s   not   how   this   works.   Lots   of   people   can   walk   up   the   stairs,   but   they   can&#39;t   open   the   door.   You   should   have   automatic   door   openers   on   all   your   doors,   right?   Because   it   because   it&#39;s   there&#39;s   more   than   just   one   uh   difference   that   you   that   you   need   to   accommodate.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:59</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   love   the   new   post-pandemic   hand   wave   door   openers   now,   too.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>17:04</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   right,   you   don&#39;t   even   need   to   hit   them.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:06</time>
      <p>
          One,   yeah.   I   I&#39;m   not   a   germophobe,   but   like   it&#39;s   just   nicer   not   to   be   able   to   have   to,   but   two,   they&#39;re   also   just   easier.   It&#39;s   like   it&#39;s   half   the   time   when   you&#39;re   carrying   groceries   or   whatever,   yeah,   and   you   need   to   try   and   get   your   elbow   up,   and   it&#39;s   like   now   you   can   just   wave   the   grocery   bag   in   front   of   it   and   poof,   you&#39;re   good   to   go.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>17:19</time>
      <p>
          Yes.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:19</time>
      <p>
          Um,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>17:20</time>
      <p>
          But   there&#39;s   so   many   things   that   you   know   were   completely   impossible   before   the   pandemic.   No,   you   can&#39;t   order   that   online.   No,   we   can&#39;t   meet   over   Zoom.   You   have   to   drive   three   hours   in   to   have   the   meeting,   you   have   to   fly   for   the   meeting.   We   found   out   actually   it&#39;s   quite   possible.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:35</time>
      <p>
          Or   or   like   uh   everywhere   everywhere   takes   credit   cards   now.   That&#39;s   yes,   that&#39;s   my   favorite.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>17:40</time>
      <p>
          Yes.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:40</time>
      <p>
          I   don&#39;t   have   to   bring   cash   anywhere.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>17:43</time>
      <p>
          I   I   can&#39;t   remember   the   last   time   I   used   cash   for   anything.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:47</time>
      <p>
          No.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>17:47</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   just   all   credit   debit.   And   you   know,   the   book   Beautiful   C   guy   wrote   that   book   in   his   commute   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:56</time>
      <p>
          Wow.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>17:57</time>
      <p>
          He   he   had   45   minutes   each   way   commute.   I   think   that&#39;s   the   number.   So   when   he   was   working   from   home   during   the   pandemic,   he   had   an   extra   hour   and   a   half   a   day.   And   what   he   did   is   at   the   time   he   would   have   normally   gone   to   work,   he   went   and   worked   on   the   book   until   9   o&#39;clock.   Then   he   closed   that,   worked   on   work   all   day.   Five   o&#39;clock,   when   he   would   have   been   driving   home,   he   worked   on   the   book.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:19</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   um   I&#39;ve   always   never   really   I   mean   I   don&#39;t   commute   anymore,   but   when   I   used   to,   I   used   to   love   it   because   I   would   read   so   much.   Um   I   I   do   more   audiobooks   now,   but   back   then   the   Toronto   Public   Library   is   just   fantastic.   And   they&#39;ve   got   a   I   haven&#39;t   used   it   in   years,   but   they&#39;ve   got   an   amazing   reservation   system   where   you   can   put   books   on   hold   and   then   like   pause   the   on   hold   and   you   work   your   way   up   a   queue.   So   like   when   you&#39;re   at   the   anyway,   it&#39;s   great.   Canadian,   I   mean   I   shouldn&#39;t   say   Canadian,   it&#39;s   specifically   the   Toronto   one.   And   yeah,   like   with   just   20   or   25   minutes   each   way,   it&#39;s   50   minutes.   And   if   folks   are   just   whatever   playing   Candy   Crush   on   their   phone,   maybe   it&#39;s   kind   of   irritating.   But   if   you&#39;re   consuming   or   or   being   productive,   uh   it&#39;s   like   an   awesome   little   chunk   of   time   that   it&#39;s   kind   of   kind   of   hard.   It&#39;s   like,   oh,   how   hard   is   it   to   find   50   minutes   or   25   times   two   slots   a   day?   But   like   as   soon   as   it&#39;s   not   there   by   necessity,   it&#39;s   it   just   kind   of   you   you   never   are   in   the   routine   of   like   you   choosing   it,   you   know.   People   can   say,   Oh,   you&#39;re   right   there,   so   I   can   just   ask   you   a   question.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>19:18</time>
      <p>
          I   can   just   ask   you,   I   can   just   interrupt   you,   or   maybe   I   could   sleep   for   another   half   an   hour,   or   maybe   I   could   have   uh   I   could   take   care   of   that   errand   or   whatever.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   It&#39;s   I   I   haven&#39;t   worked   in   an   office   for   a   real   long   time,   but   I   used   to   go   to   to   clients&#39;   offices   and   go   to   to   meetings.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>19:43</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   good.   I   think   I&#39;ve   said   this   a   couple   of   times,   but   having   to   choose   between   either   fully   remote   or   fully   in   person,   like   it   would   I   think   remote   would   win   100%   of   the   time   because   there&#39;s   just   too   much   flexibility   and   it&#39;s   um   anyways.   We   were   talking   about   carbon.   Yeah.   Uh   and   then   and   then   we   got   sidetracked.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>20:00</time>
      <p>
          Carbon   is   all   remote,   right?   It&#39;s   all   online   and   it&#39;s   all   open   and   transparent.   There&#39;s   no   you   know,   secret   meeting   that   comes   back   and   says,   well,   this   is   what   we&#39;re   gonna   do.   Everything&#39;s   everything&#39;s   open.   Every   once   in   a   while,   there&#39;s   things   that   the   leads   will   have   to   decide,   but   it&#39;s   quite   common   for   that   to   happen   on   a   call   that   other   people   are   on.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:23</time>
      <p>
          Right.   And   maybe   as   as   one   sort   of   like   last   final   question,   as   probably   we&#39;re   actually   winding   down   for   the   the   final   time,   because   you   operate   both   in   carbon   and   for   years   in   C.   Yeah.   Have   you   no   like   what   in   your   gen   in   general   have   you   observed   as   sort   of   the   response   between   because   you   hear   a   lot   of,   you   know,   oh,   it&#39;s   just   rust,   um,   or   you   know,   and   then   it&#39;s   actually   not   just   rust,   and   you   answer   that   question.   What&#39;s   from   your   point   of   view   been   the   reaction   from   the   C   community?   Uh   is   it   generally   oh   no,   or   is   it   generally,   oh,   this   could   be   great?
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>20:57</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   I   thought   there   would   be   negativity.   I   really   did.   I   thought   people   would   be   like,   how   could   you   do   that   to   C?   How   could   you   betray,   you   know,   WG21   like   this?   And   that   hasn&#39;t   been   the   case   at   all.   Um   people   from   the   committee   have   you   know   saw   it   before   the   before   the   launch,   people   have   seen   it   since.   They   say,   yeah,   that   that   might   work   for   some   problems,   you   know,   because   there   are   some   problems,   right,   that   are   not   tractable   problems.   Then   it&#39;s   another   FAQ.   Why   don&#39;t   you   just   improve   C?   Like,   well,   if   you   look   at   the   cast   of   characters,   it&#39;s   all   people   who   tried   improving   C,   and   there&#39;s   certain   things   that   can&#39;t   be   done   because   the   priority   number   one   is   the   backwards   compatibility.   Can&#39;t   that&#39;s   a   promise   that   can&#39;t   be   broken.   That&#39;s   a   promise   that   was   made   and   that   cannot   be   suspended.   And   that&#39;s   fair.   You   know,   I   have   no   problem   with   that.   But   when   you   take   that   promise   away,   what   does   that   enable?   What   can   you   now   solve   that   cannot   be   solved   in   C?   That&#39;s   what   we&#39;re   gonna   try   to   find   out.   And   there   are   things   to   be   solved,   there   are   things   about   C   that   are   Make   it   hard   to   write   a   compiler,   but   they   also   make   it   hard   to   teach   or   hard   to   work   in   sometimes.   So   what   could   we   what   could   we   fix   if   we   didn&#39;t   have   to   be   backward   compatible   with   literally   programs   from   the   80s?   Right.   Um   that   is   a   great   question   to   ask.   And   I   know   that   there   are   people   who&#39;ve   got   some   very   specific   wishes   around   performance.   So   did   you   see   the   Foonathon   blog?   I   think   that&#39;s   who   it   was   about   the   calling.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:28</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>22:28</time>
      <p>
          You   know,   that   oh,   some   if   you   want   to   pass   like   an   int,   it&#39;s   quicker   to   pass   an   int   by   value   than   by   reference   because   it&#39;ll   go   in   a   register.   Whereas   if   you   pass   it   by   reference,   uh   the   address   will   go   and   it   won&#39;t   go   in   a   register.   And   carbon   says   it   looks   like   a   value,   but   we&#39;ll   we&#39;ll   do   whichever   is   quicker.   If   it&#39;s   quicker   to   pass   it   by   value,   we&#39;ll   pass   it   by   value.   Otherwise,   we&#39;ll   do   it   by   reference.   You   know,   that   sort   of   thing   is   focused   on   perf.   And   for   people   who   need   that,   that&#39;s   going   to   be   a   huge,   huge   benefit.   And   there   are   all   kinds   of   stuff   like   that,   where   it&#39;s   just   you   have   different   goals,   you   have   different   priorities,   so   you   can   make   different   decisions.   I   hope   it   ends   up   with   a   language   that   I   get   to   teach   and   that   I   get   to   work   in   for   a   real   long   time.   But   even   if   it   totally   flames   out,   there   will   have   been   lessons   learned.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:19</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   think,   you   know,   I&#39;m   not   sure   it&#39;s   the   worst   case,   but   one   of   the   cases   is   um   it   just   ends   up   making   C   a   better   language   that&#39;s   closer   to   what   we   would   all   like   to   see.   Like   I   haven&#39;t   met   a   single   C   developer   that&#39;s   been   like,   oh   my   god,   C,   it&#39;s   my   favorite   language,   absolutely   nothing   wrong   with   it.   It&#39;s   perfectly   designed   from   the   get-go.   We   made   no   mistake.   There&#39;s   no   any   C   developer   has   their   sections   that   frustrates   them.   And   um,   I   mean,   you   know,   you&#39;ve   heard   Sean   say   that,   you   know,   I   think   at   the   end   of   the   Elements   of   Programming   book,   it   even   dis   defines   like   this   subset   of   C.   And   there&#39;s   the   quote,   you   know,   like   inside   of   C   is   a   beautiful   language   waiting   to   get   out,   or   something   like   that.   You   know,   yes.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   a   language   we   all   love   with   some   asterisks   next   to   the   love   that   things   we   have   to   do.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>24:06</time>
      <p>
          One   of   the   cool   things   is   everyone   has   their   asterisk   in   a   different   place.   You   know,   so   so   someone   was   just   talking   today   about   all,   you   know,   you   you   can&#39;t   teach   operator   overloading   without   getting   into   argument-dependent   lookup.   And   I   was   like,   you   can&#39;t,   because   I&#39;m   pretty   sure   I   have,   you   know.   So   we&#39;ve   all   got   our   own   little   you   know,   bugbears   that   we&#39;re   like   have   a   have   a   big   problem   with   or   struggle   with   or   wish   we   could   eliminate   or   what   have   you.   Um   to   say   we&#39;ll   make   everybody   happy   can&#39;t   be   done   because   everybody   has   a   different   set   of   things   they   wish   they   could   fix.   But   to   be   in   a   position   where   none   of   these   decisions   are   binding,   that   we   will   not   be   held   to   the   40-year-old   decision   because   we   can   we   can   break   stuff   if   we   want.   We   can   break   not   just   the   syntax,   which   is   relatively   trivial,   but   the   ABI   break   is   a   bigger   deal,   right?   Um   there&#39;s   cost   to   that.   Of   course   there   is,   people   have   to   rebuild.   But   there&#39;s   benefit   to   that   too.   Because   you   don&#39;t   run   around   breaking   ABI   because   you   felt   like   it.   You   know,   you   can   you   came   to   realize   that   something   would   be   faster   or   that   something   would   be   smaller   or   whatever.   And   then   to   be   told,   well,   yeah,   but   we   can&#39;t.   Because   they&#39;ll   break   ABI   and   people   don&#39;t   wish   to   rebuild   all   their   code   and   they   don&#39;t   have   the   source   code   and   all   the   reasons   why   you&#39;re   not   supposed   to   break   things.   Okay,   but   what   if   we   did?   What   if   we   broke   things?   And   that   just   provides   a   freedom   that&#39;s   very   exciting   to   be   part   of.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>25:34</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   mean,   towards   the   end   of   CPP   casts,   you   know,   I   don&#39;t   know   how   many   episodes   it   was,   50   towards   the   end.   Jason   was   always   bringing   up   every   other   episode,   you   know.   Do   you   care   about   ABI?   You   know,   because   I,   you   know,   and   he   started   collecting   these   responses   where   I   think   either   all   of   them   or   almost   all   of   them   were   like,   oh   no,   we   could   rebuild   if   we   like   it   seemed   like   this   issue,   like,   but   then   I   know   I   know   Marshall   Clow   has   given   talks   that   shows   the   issues   of   it,   and   that   there   are   folks   out   there   that,   you   know,   it   is   a   big   deal   for.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:02</time>
      <p>
          Well,   it&#39;s   often   not   the   engineers   that   um   are   the   one   like   the   engineers   are   like,   sure   we   could   rebuild,   but   it&#39;s   often   decisions   that   are   getting   made   um   at   a   higher   level   than   line   engineers.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>26:16</time>
      <p>
          Yes.   That&#39;s   it.   And   engineers   are   so   optimistic.   They&#39;re   like,   oh,   it&#39;ll   take   like   20   minutes.   It&#39;s   no   big,   it&#39;s   not   it&#39;s   not   a   big   thing,   you   know.   Then   they&#39;re   like,   oh,   we   don&#39;t   have   the   source   for   that,   or   no   one   remembers   what   options   we   set   for   this   other   thing,   or   or   we   get   we   we   thought   we   remembered   what   options   we   set,   but   obviously   we   didn&#39;t   because   now   that   we&#39;ve   built   it,   it&#39;s   not   working   the   way   it   used   to.   That&#39;s   a   fun   one.   Yeah.   Yeah.   And   and   like   I&#39;m   old   enough,   I   have   worked   on   stuff   that   we   didn&#39;t   have   source   code   for.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:44</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   mean,   it   it   ABI   is   a   real   problem   for   you   know   some   people.   I   still   think   we   should   break   it   regularly.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>26:53</time>
      <p>
          No,   so   someone   asked   a   question   at   the   Carbon   Talk   about,   you   know,   changing   the   syntax   of   the   language   every   day   or   whatever,   and   I   said   to   the   person,   like,   benevolent.   We&#39;re   supposed   to   be   the   benevolent   leads,   right?   Like,   just   because   we   can   break   things   doesn&#39;t   mean   we&#39;re   gonna   break   them   all   the   time.   But   some   interesting   things.   The   first   big   break   is   to   say   we&#39;re   gonna   break   some   C   things.   Or   I&#39;m   gonna   change   some   defaults,   change   the   way   some   things   are   done,   change   the   way   some   things   are   spelled.   And   you   know,   some   people   kind   of   losing   their   minds   over   that.   That&#39;s   okay.   You   know,   I   mean   uh   carbon   has   var   and   let.   Um,   and   where   var   is   a   thing   with   an   address   that   can   change   and   let   it   can&#39;t   change.   And   they&#39;re   like,   no,   you   need   to   spell   that   const,   you   can&#39;t   spell   that   let.   Okay.   You   know,   we   can   talk   about   that,   but   the   the   basic   concept   that   uh   we&#39;re   not   just   tacking   another   keyword   onto   an   existing   declaration,   but   we&#39;re   actually   gonna   use   a   different   keyword   to   declare   it,   that&#39;s   uh   in   a   way   a   break.   And   it&#39;s   changing   what   the   defa   the   defaults   are,   because   if   you   just   declare   an   integer   in   SQL,   it&#39;s   mutable.   But   it   doesn&#39;t   have   to   be   that   way.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:59</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   folks   should   keep   in   mind   too   that   um   the   people   working   on   this   language   aren&#39;t   just   looking   at   C.   They&#39;re   looking   at   many   other   languages,   and   if   you   look   at   the   languages   that   they&#39;re   looking   at,   um,   sometimes   the   decisions   they&#39;re   making   make   more   sense.   Sometimes   looking   at   it   just   from   a   myopic   C   only   lens   would   be   like,   well,   why   are   you   changing   that?   That&#39;s   there&#39;s   no   reason   to   change   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>28:22</time>
      <p>
          Absolutely.   So   if   you   look   at   Go,   if   you   look   at   Kotlin,   if   you   look   at   Swift,   if   you   look   at   Haskell,   you   know,   people   are   looking   at   very,   very   modern   languages   and   really   quite   old   ones   and   and   getting   some   inspiration.   But   you   know,   also   the   some   very   bike   sheddy   type   questions   are   best   solved   by   looking   at   other   languages.   So   if   you&#39;re   gonna   have   introducers   for   functions,   if   you&#39;re   gonna   say   keyword   and   then   start   talking   about   the   fact   that   this   is   a   function,   here&#39;s   its   name,   here&#39;s   his   signature,   here&#39;s   what   it   returns.   You   know,   what   should   the   keyword   be?   Should   it   be   F   for   function?   Should   it   be   Fn?   Should   it   be   func?   Should   it   be   function?   Should   it   be   define,   you   know?   And   and   you   can   find   examples   in   a   lot   of   other   languages   where   they&#39;ve   used   different   introducer   words.   And   you   don&#39;t   just   like   have   a   vote   and   say,   well,   it   turns   out   nine   out   of   ten   languages   abbreviated   this   way.   But   it   is   helpful   to   look   across,   you   know,   a   wide   history   and   say,   listen,   we&#39;re   not   the   first   people   to   face   this   problem.   Let&#39;s   let&#39;s   take   a   look   at   some   science   out   there.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:23</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   for   sure.   All   right,   with   that,   I   feel   like   we&#39;ve   definitely   taken   you   back   to   the   city.   We&#39;re   definitely   over.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>29:29</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   getting   dark.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:31</time>
      <p>
          So   we   should   let   we   should   let   Kate   go.   Um,   but   thank   you   so   much   for   coming   on   and   spending   all   I   know   our   listeners,   they   absolutely   love   the   guest   episodes,   and   um,   we&#39;ve   been   mentioning   your   name.   I   mean,   I   can&#39;t   count   the   number   of   times   across   episodes   where   we   keep   saying,   we   gotta   have   Kate   on,   we   gotta   have   Kate   on.   And   I   even   uh   apologized   at   the   beginning   of   episode,   I   think   it   was   89   and   uh   90,   saying,   We   said   Kate   would   be   on,   but   uh   she&#39;ll   be   on   next   time,   we   promise.   All   right.   Well,   any   any   last   plugs   or   things   you   want   to   mention,   calls   to   action   before   we   uh   let   you   let   you   enjoy   your   lakeside   uh   cabin,   which   we   are   all   jealous   that   you   are   at   right   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>30:08</time>
      <p>
          I   would   I   would   say   to   everybody,   check   out   the   CPP   North   videos.   Um   at   the   moment   that   we&#39;re   recording,   there&#39;s   only   a   handful   up,   but   by   the   time   it   airs,   there   should   be   well   over   a   dozen.   And   that&#39;s   probably   more   than   you   can   watch   right   away.   So   start   watching   some   of   those   and   uh   and   plan   to   join   us   next   year.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:27</time>
      <p>
          Awesome.   Well,   once   again,   thank   you   so   much   for   spending   your   time   with   us   and   uh   enjoy   enjoy   the   lake   and   the   cabin,   and   we   will   talk   to   you   sometime   in   the   future,   hopefully   in   person.
      </p>

        <cite>Kate Gregory</cite>
      <time>30:35</time>
      <p>
          All   right,   take   care.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:36</time>
      <p>
          Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>