

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          Uh   and   then   K9   showed   up.   The   K7   community,   I   think,   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   know   really   what   the   state   of   it   is.   So   now   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   K7,   which   at   one   point   had   a   big   community   around   it,   K4,   which   is   behind   Q.   Yes.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:19</time>
      <p>
          This   is   an   interesting   software   governance   model.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:32</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   96,   recorded   on   September   19th,   2022.   My   name   is   Connor.   Today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   talk   about   the   K   programming   language.   Dear   listener,   we   it   is   September   19th,   2022.   The   last   time   we   recorded   was   August   15th,   2022.   It&#39;s   been   over   a   month.   Much   has   happened   in   the   last   month.   I   almost   died.   Yes,   that&#39;s   right.   And   then   we   met   up   in   New   York.   And   then   are   we   gonna   talk   about   the   thing?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:10</time>
      <p>
          I   think   we   should   do   that.   I   think   we   should   talk   about   that   next   time   because   that&#39;s   gonna   require   you&#39;re   gonna   need   a   good   long   period   of   time   to   troll   me.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:22</time>
      <p>
          Oh.   Okay.   Yeah.   So   are   we   allowed   to   are   we   allowed   to   get   the   thing?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:27</time>
      <p>
          My   girlfriend   is   going   through   some.   There&#39;s   gonna   be   some   background   noise.   But   you   know   what?   That&#39;s   part   of   the   show.   You   get   you   get   my   real   life.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:35</time>
      <p>
          That   is   um,   um   I&#39;m   talking   away   from   the   mic   now.   So   wait,   are   we   allowed   to   give   the   listener   a   preview   at   least   of   the   thing   we   said   we   might   talk   about?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:44</time>
      <p>
          Hang   on,   hang   on,   hang   on.   Was   that   the   chocolate? Yes. Alright,   bring   me   some   chocolate.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:49</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   leaving   that   in   the   episode.   There&#39;s   that&#39;s   not   getting   edited   out.   You   better   be   careful   about   what   you   say   here,   Bryce.   Um   this   is   poor   planning   on   your   part,   clearly.   I   happen   to   be   uninterrupted   for   the   next   90   minutes.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:02</time>
      <p>
          Well,   okay,   so   look,   look,   the   plan   was   for   me   to   go   up   to   a   different   floor   where   I   could   record   this.   I   only   get   one.   Um,   but   uh   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   gonna   be   honest.   I   um   I   I   only   really   put   on   underwear   today,   and   I   I   threw   on   this   this   exercise   shirt.   I   just   couldn&#39;t   be   bothered   to   put   on   clothes   to   go   upstairs.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>2:27</time>
      <p>
          Alright.   Alright,   we   will   uh   well   we&#39;ll   let   the   listener   react   to   that   on   the   Twitter   forums,   etc.   Are   we   gonna   we&#39;re   gonna   preview   what   we&#39;re   talking   about?   We&#39;ll   just   we&#39;ll   mention   the   topic,   because   it   is   topical.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:39</time>
      <p>
          Drama   Shakespeare.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>2:41</time>
      <p>
          Oh   no,   no,   no.   That&#39;s   not   even   what   I   was   talking   about.   What   were   you   talking   about?   I   was   talking   about   the   other   thing.   Uh   the   listener&#39;s   gonna   be   upset   if   this   does,   if   now   they&#39;re   gonna   be   like,   what   were   they   talking   about?   The   thing   that   I   DM&#39;d   you   about,   and   I   said,   Oh,   are   we   gonna   be   talking   about   this?   And   then   you   replied,   all   right,   he&#39;s   got   his   finger   up.   I&#39;ll   let   him   finish   eating   his   chocolate   and   then   he   can   respond.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:01</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   think   we   should   talk   about   the   Val   programm   language.   And   I   heard   about   this   other   thing   called   Jaxed.   Have   you   heard   about   that   at   all?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>3:10</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   Jackta,   J-A-K-T.   So   what   was   that   announced?   Uh   I   mean,   Jackta&#39;s   been   a   thing   dormantly   for   a   while   that   exists,   I   believe.   Is   it   in   um   Andreas   Andreas   Kling&#39;s   uh   Serenity   OS?   I   think   that&#39;s   where   it   comes   from.   And   they&#39;ve   been   designing   this.   I   mean,   I   should   look   that   up.   Yeah,   SerenityOS   slash   Jacked,   a   repository   in   the   Serenity   OS   uh   GitHub,   um,   because   that&#39;s   an   org,   I&#39;m   guessing.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:43</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   So   so   okay.   Um   sure,   we   should   talk   about   all   the   new   C   successor   languages.   Um   but   uh   let&#39;s   talk   about   Val   today.   And   then   what   I   think   we   should   do.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:02</time>
      <p>
          Wait,   wait,   wait.   We&#39;re   not   we&#39;re   not   we&#39;re   not   hopping   in,   we&#39;re   just   talking   about   what   we&#39;re   gonna   talk   about.   We&#39;re   not   actually   talking   about   anything   yet.   So   you   want   to   talk   about   Val   today?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>4:09</time>
      <p>
          Um   yeah,   but   but   okay,   he   here&#39;s   my   broader   idea.   We   should   bring   Sean   Baxter   onto   the   podcast   to   talk   about   Circle   and   all   these   other   new   languages,   because   I   know   he&#39;s   checked   them   all   out.   And   also,   Sean   Baxter   is   just   a   fun   time.   And   we   can   have   Sean   tell   us   about   Moby   Dick,   which   is   one   of   Sean&#39;s   favorite   subjects.   So   I   think   that&#39;s   what   what   we   should   do.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:34</time>
      <p>
          Alright.   So   we&#39;re   not   talking   about   New   York   today.   We&#39;re   not   talking   about   how   I   almost   died,   we&#39;re   not   gonna   talk   about   all   the   exciting   things   that   have   happened   recently.   What   we   will   talk   about,   um,   oh   yes,   and   I   was   gonna   mention   you   got   put   on   thin   ice   last   time   because   you   were   eating   when   Kate   was   here.   I&#39;m   gonna   bring   Jason   on.   I&#39;m   gonna   test   him   out   for   a   couple   episodes,   okay?   And   uh   we&#39;re   gonna   we&#39;re   gonna   see,   you   know,   do   I   prefer   Bryce?   Do   I   prefer   Jason?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>5:02</time>
      <p>
          And   uh   almost   almost   anybody   would   be   a   better   co-host   than   Kate.   I&#39;m   constantly   late.   There&#39;s   constantly   background   noise.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>5:12</time>
      <p>
          You   started   off,   you   started   off   great,   and   then   uh   you&#39;ve   just   become   a   lot   more   late.   You   did,   you   did.   I   mean   your   mic   quality   was   bad,   but   uh   your   uh   what   do   they   call   it?   Punctualness.   I&#39;m   not   even   sure   if   that&#39;s   the   noun   version   of   punctual.   Uh   punctuality?   Who   knows?   Um   but,   anyways,   we&#39;re   gonna   try   out   Jason.   What   happened   though?   Um   I   can&#39;t   remember,   you   said   something   that   made   me   think   of   this.   One   thing   we   do   have   to   mention   is   that   on   Reddit,   uh   a   few   days   ago   now,   someone   asked   the   question   are   there   any   good   podcasts   about   C.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>5:47</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   this   is   too   meta.   This   is   too   meta.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>5:50</time>
      <p>
          And   a   bunch   of   people,   oh   yeah,   that&#39;s   what   that&#39;s   what   happened   is   that   you   said   something   about,   oh,   you   know,   it&#39;s   just   uh   the   way   our   podcast   operates,   and   then   made   me   think   about   a   few   of   the   comments.   So   I   replied,   but   I&#39;ll   read   my   reply   after   I   scan.   So   um   the   top   comment   was   by   Jake   Arkenstahl.   I   hope   they   don&#39;t   mind   that   we&#39;re   uh   calling   out   their   username   on   Reddit,   and   says,   for   Chatty,   ADSP   is   great.   There&#39;s   a   lot   off-topic   casual   content,   but   that&#39;s   what   podcasts   usually   are.   Thanks,   Jake.   That&#39;s   very   kind   of   you   to   say.   But   then   that   was   generous.   Yeah,   then   someone   else,   JV   Apen,   they   said   about   us,   and   I   thought   this   was   the   best   like   six   or   seven   words   summary,   uh,   maybe   other   than   a   discussion   with   Sean   Perrent,   which   has   become   less   true   seeing   as   we   haven&#39;t   had   him   on   in   you   know   20   or   episodes   or   so.   ADSP   the   podcast,   and   then   in   parentheses,   the   explanation   of   us.   Chaos   and   chatting   with   sprinkles   of   information.   I   thought   that   was   fantastic.   Um   maybe   that   might   add   that   to   the   website   as   like   our   the   byline   the   byline.   Chaos   and   chatting   with   sprinkles   of   information.   Um,   fantastic.   Anyways,   I   will   link   this   uh   Reddit   post   because   there&#39;s   lots   of   good   stuff.   I   sort   of   densified   everything   and   added   links   to   CPP   cast,   CPP   chat,   ADSP,   Tooth   Compliment,   TLB,   TLB   hit,   no   diagnostic   required,   and   C   Club.   Didn&#39;t   actually   know   about   that   one,   although   I   managed   to   listen   to   all   28   episodes   on   in   two   days.   Of   course   you   did.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>7:35</time>
      <p>
          I   have   a   question.   Have   we   actually   talked   about   the   K   programming   language   on   this   podcast   before?   The   K   programming   language?   That&#39;s   the   one   that&#39;s   behind   you,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>7:44</time>
      <p>
          Uh   no,   that&#39;s   Q.   I   mean,   they&#39;re   tightly   related.   K   programming.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>7:49</time>
      <p>
          Have   we   talked   about   them   before?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>7:51</time>
      <p>
          I   don&#39;t   it&#39;s   hard   to   know.   In   the   cinematic   universe   of   my   podcasts,   I&#39;ve   talked   a   lot   about   K   and   Q,   but   that&#39;s   probably   mostly   been   on   a   raycast.   Has   it   been   mentioned?   I   mean,   actually,   there&#39;s   an   easy   way   to   check   this.   Uh   well,   it   might   not   mean   that   we   haven&#39;t   mentioned   it,   but   if   we   go   to   the   tags   and   we   go   to   is   there   a   K?   There&#39;s   a   J,   but   there   is   no   K.   There&#39;s   a   J   and   a   Q   on   the   tags   on   our   website   for   topics.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:16</time>
      <p>
          For   those   of   you   who   don&#39;t   know,   forget   about   Val,   forget   about   other   things   that   people   are   doing.   I   I   want   you   to   tell   me   the   story   of   the   K   and   the   Q   language,   because   if   I   recall   correctly,   this   is   the   programming   language   that   you   have   often   quoted   to   me   as   being   one   that   was   sold   for   some   ridiculous   large   sum   of   money.   Or   that   that   it   was   the   the   the   highest   price   per   like   like   um   the   most   dollars   per   um   byte   of   program   sold,   or   something   like   that   you   said.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>8:51</time>
      <p>
          Yes,   you   are   correct,   uh   like   80%.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:54</time>
      <p>
          So   that&#39;s   about   as   much   as   I   want   to   be   correct.   I   don&#39;t   want   to   be   more   right   than   that   because   that   means   I   spent   too   much   time   uh   researching   the   thing.   I   only   ever   want   to   be   80%   correct,   so   tell   me   more.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>9:06</time>
      <p>
          So   that&#39;s   this   is   true.   At   some   point,   way   back,   I   want   to   say   probably   in   our   first   10   episodes,   closing   in   on   a   hundred   here,   which   is   pretty   crazy.   Uh   like   it   doesn&#39;t   feel   like   we&#39;ve   recorded   a   hundred   episodes.   Um   but   yeah,   in   our   first   ten,   I   think   I   mentioned   at   some   point   that   basically   Arthur   Whitney,   the   individual   behind   many,   many   programming   languages,   A,   A   plus,   K,   K1,   K2,   K3,   K4,   K5,   K   six,   K7,   K9.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:36</time>
      <p>
          Um,   okay,   okay,   hang   on,   hang   on   just   for   a   second.   What   all   those   K   languages   you   just   listed,   are   those   evolutions   of   the   same   language?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>9:45</time>
      <p>
          No.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:46</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   all   right.   Can   you   I   I   assume   we&#39;ll   hear   more   about   that   later,   but   continue.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>9:51</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I   can   quickly   because   I   had   the   exact   same   thought.   I   actually   met   with   the   last   flight   I   took   before   the   pandemic   was   not   actually   to   Prague,   which   was   in   February   of   2020.   Uh,   it   was   to   New   York   at   the   tail   end   of   February   in   2020,   and   that   was   to   um   meeting.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>10:10</time>
      <p>
          I   can&#39;t   be   upset,   Wilsoner,   about   this   trip   because   I   did   not   live   in   New   York   at   the   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>10:15</time>
      <p>
          This   is   true,   very   true.   But   yeah,   I   flew   to   sort   of   meet   with   Arthur   Whitney   and   got   to   have   a   bunch   of   conversations   with   him   and   a   dinner   with   him.   And   at   one   point,   I   didn&#39;t   even   ask   a   question,   but   I   said   something   about   K&#39;s   just   being   like,   you   know,   versions   of   each   other   or   evolutions,   similar   to   many   other,   you   know,   languages.   You   could   even   say   C   with   the   different   versions,   etc.   And   he   corrected   me   and   said,   they&#39;re   not,   you   know,   evolutions   of   the   same.   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   evolution,   I   use   the   word   evolution.   I&#39;m   not   sure   what   he   would   say   to   that,   but   he   said   they&#39;re   definitely   not   versions.   It&#39;s   not   like   K3   and   was   an   upgrade   from   K2.   They   are   complete   rewrites   from   scratch.   Every   single   time   Arthur   creates   a   new   language,   he   deletes,   like   straight   up   deletes.   You   can&#39;t   go   and   find   the   old   executables   for   K5,   6,   and   7   unless   if   you   happen   to   have   downloaded   it   in   the   past.   And   maybe   you   can   find   them   in   the   corner   of   some   internet.   He   just   like   wipes   it   off   of   his   computer   and   then   starts   from   scratch,   writing   a   parser,   Lexer,   etc.   And   admittedly,   takes   what   he,   you   know,   there&#39;s   the   quote   that,   you   know,   now   that   I&#39;ve   finished   programming   this   project,   I   can   go   back   to   the   beginning   and   do   it   the   right   way   because   you   know,   you   learn.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:28</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   but   but   uh   but   what   but   what   if   what   if   you   were   using   the   older   version   of   the   K   language?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:36</time>
      <p>
          So   so   there   are   going   to   be   a   number   of   listeners   that   listen   to   both   Arraycast   and   uh   ADSP   that   are   gonna   have   strong   thoughts   on   this   because   this   is   a   question   that   I&#39;ve   asked   the   K   community.   Literally,   just   within   the   last   month,   maybe   a   month   ago,   I   went   to   uh   the   APL   farm,   which   is   a   Discord   that   has   channels   for   all   the   different   sort   of   Iversonian   array   languages,   J,   BQN,   uh   K,   uh,   Neow.   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   I   did   I   miss   them   all.   APL,   BQN,   J,   K,   and   Neal,   I   think   are   the   five   main   ones.   And   I   went   to   the   K,   I   don&#39;t   spend   much   time   in   the   K   channel   because   it&#39;s   one   of   the   langu   the   array   languages   that   I   know   the   least   about.   And   I   asked,   what   is   what   is   like   the   state   of   K?   Because   every   time   Arthur   starts   on   a   new   K,   he   just   like   deletes   everything   off   his   computer   and   starts   anew.   And   if   you&#39;re   wondering   why   did   they   skip   K8,   that&#39;s   because   I   was   wondering   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:28</time>
      <p>
          I   was   about   to   ask   what   happened   to   K8.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:30</time>
      <p>
          Do   you   know   do   you   have   a   guess?   I   know   some   of   our   listeners   that   work.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:35</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   wait,   isn&#39;t   that   like   the   acronym   for   like   Kubernetes   or   exactly?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:40</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   So   they   didn&#39;t   want   to,   you   know,   hop   step   on   the   toes   of   Google,   even   if   it   would   have   been   fine   because   no   one   cares.   So   they   and   and   some   people   say   that   they   kind   of   wanted   to   get   to   K9   because   it&#39;s   you   know,   whatever,   cute.   But   um   Yeah,   wolf   wolf.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:53</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   yeah.   Hang   on,   hang   on.   I   gotta   you   continue,   I   gotta   get   my   dog.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:58</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ll   continue   talking.   Yes,   so   every   time   Arthur   starts   a   K,   he   starts   a   new   one,   which   sort   of   leaves   the   prior   K   in   a   state   of   limbo.   And   so   it&#39;s   unclear   to   me   what   K   is   the   most   popular   K   or   the   most   widely   used.   Or   if   someone&#39;s   gonna   start   learning   K,   what   should   they   start   learning?   So   the   most   recent,   you   might   say,   oh,   the   most   recent   one   is   obviously   the   most   recent   one,   but   there&#39;s   always   a   stage   where   it&#39;s   sort   of   in   development.   And   the   current   K,   K9,   is   uh   kind   of   been   branded   Shakti,   and   there&#39;s   been   a   database   in   a   company.   Or   do   you   want   to   have   a   woof   woof   break   for   Looney?   Hey   Looney.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:34</time>
      <p>
          Can   you   say   K9   again?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:36</time>
      <p>
          K9.   And   that   kind   of   got   picked   up.   Looney   and   I   got   to   meet   in   New   York.   You&#39;ll   hear   about   that   in   our   New   York   recap   episode,   which   uh   apparently   we   need   more   time   for   in   the   future.   But   yeah,   so   canine.   Every   K   gets   abandoned   at   some   point.   And   so   of   the   K&#39;s,   in   my   mind,   your   options   are   uh   K4,   because   that&#39;s   the   K   that   went   on   to   become   Q.   But   the   problem   is   that   the   company   that   bought   KX,   the   company,   which   is   what   the   company   that   owned   uh   K4   and   Q,   um,   doesn&#39;t   have   documentation   for   K4.   And   apparently   there&#39;s   some   command   that   you   have   to   turn   on   in   order   to   enable   K4.   So   K,   similar   to   J,   is   an   ASCII-based   array   language.   So   your   functions   and   your   operations   are   single   ASCII   characters.   Um,   but   when   first   derivatives,   the   company   that   bought   KX,   bought   the   company   single   ASCII,   you   mean   combinations   of   ASCII   characters,   like   single   ASC.   I   think   there   are   certain   digraphs,   which   is   two   ASCII   characters   together,   but   most   of   the   functions   and   operations   are   single   ASCII   characters,   which   means   I   think   on   one   of   the   array   cast   episodes,   it   was   either   Stephen   Aptor   or   Joel   Kaplan   said,   What   is   Arthur&#39;s   main   motivation   for   designing?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:03</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   sorry.   This   is   the   only   are   you   allowed   to   define   a   function   that   has   a   multi-character   name?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>15:10</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   yes,   correct.   Yes,   definitely.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:12</time>
      <p>
          Okay.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>15:12</time>
      <p>
          Uh   yes.   Actually,   I   don&#39;t   know   much   about   K,   so   I   could   be   wrong,   but   like   I&#39;m   99%   sure   that   is   the   case.   But   all   of   the   built-in   functions   that   come   with   the   language   are   ASCII   characters.   That   makes   more   sense.   Similar   to   how   all   the   built-ins   and   APL   are   Unicode   characters.   Okay.   Um,   but   to   finish   my   last   thought,   um,   uh   Joel   or   Steven,   whichever   one   it   was,   said,   you   know,   Arthur&#39;s   main   motivation   for   designing   K   and   his   prior   array   languages   is   the   keyboard.   Because   it&#39;s   what   is   available   to   you   on   the   keyboard   in   terms   of   symbols,   uh,   is   what   you   can   use.   Anyway,   so   the   the   point   I&#39;m   going   on   a   long-winded   thing   of   like,   what   is   the   state   of   K?   It&#39;s   a   question   I   asked,   and   in   my   mind,   it&#39;s   K4.   The   the   language   behind   Q,   the   problem   with   that   is   that   it&#39;s   not   documented   on   uh   the   KX   website   where   you   can   learn   about   Q.   Q   is   very   well   documented,   just   not   K.   And   Q   is   the   word-ified   version.   So   whereas   um,   you   know,   slash   is   uh   sort   of   a   reduction   in   K,   uh   they   the   wordified   version   of   that   is   over.   And   the   backslash,   which   is   a   scan,   the   word-ified   version   of   that   is   scan.   Anyway,   so   instead   of   ASCII   symbols,   KXKX   and   Arthur   put   sort   of   words   on   it,   that   became   Q.   And   then   for   a   long   time,   K7   looked   like   it   was   gonna   be   like   sort   of   the   K   for   the   end   of   all   times,   and   there   was   wik   wikis   built   around   that   K,   and   there   was   a   big   community.   But   then   when   K7   sort   of   got   ended,   uh,   and   then   K9   showed   up,   the   K7   community.   I   think   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   know   really   what   the   state   of   it   is.   So   now   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   K7,   which   at   one   point   had   a   big   community   around   it,   K4,   which   is   behind   Q.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:45</time>
      <p>
          But   a   community   that   ended   because   this   guy   unilaterally   decided,   oh   no,   this   thing   that   you&#39;re   using,   I&#39;m   gonna   delete   it   and   build   a   better   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:53</time>
      <p>
          Yes.   And   and   so,   like,   I&#39;m   not,   I   don&#39;t   think   Arthur   is   a   little   bit   more.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:56</time>
      <p>
          This   is   an   interesting   software   governance   model.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:59</time>
      <p>
          I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   think   Arthur   listens   to   this,   and   I   if   he   does,   or   this   reaches   his   ears   somehow,   I   don&#39;t   want   this   to   come   across   because   I   have   a   huge   amount   of   respect   for   Arthur.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:08</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   no,   I   have   a   huge   amount   of   respect   for   him   because   you   have   a   huge   amount   of   respect   for   him.   I&#39;m   just   like   as   as   somebody   that   comes   from   a   more   traditional   software   community.   Um   I   just   don&#39;t   like   I&#39;m   just   trying   to   understand.   Like   it   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   it   sounds   it   sounds   really   out   there   to   me,   but   I&#39;m   sure   that   for   folks   in   the   community   and   for   Arthur,   that   like   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   good   reasons   and   probably   makes   sense.   It&#39;s   just   like   I   don&#39;t   understand   it   yet.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:41</time>
      <p>
          So   the   reason   I   was   prefacing   I   have   a   lot   of   respect   is   because   I&#39;m   about   to   say   something   that&#39;s   kind   of   critical.   It&#39;s   not   for   anything   you   said,   it&#39;s   for   what   I&#39;m   about   to   say.   And   that&#39;s   that   I   think   the   biggest   problem   with   the   K   languages   is   that   that   is   what   Arthur   does.   He   basically   starts   anew,   and   then   you   end   up   with   this   language   that   is   better   than   the   prior   ones.   Um,   but   not   only   does   he   sort   of   delete   everything   off   his   computer   and   then   to   a   certain   extent,   whether   abandon   is   the   right   word   to   use,   abandon   the   community,   he   also   infamously   does   not   like   to   give   interviews   and   does   not   like   to   document   sort   of   the   history   of   things.   So   there   is,   I   have   this,   I&#39;ll   link   it   in   the   show   notes   and   I   can   even   read   a   little   bit   about   it.   No,   we&#39;ve   I   mean   we&#39;ve   asked   on   a   ray   cast.   I   mean,   there&#39;s   a   chance   um   that   like   in   the   right   sort   of   setup,   we   he   might   be   willing   to   give   an   interview.   Like,   I&#39;m   not   writing   it   off,   but   like   we&#39;ve   definitely   extended   the   offer.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>18:37</time>
      <p>
          But   you   you   you   haven&#39;t   explained   why.   Like   if   the   language   is   like   yes,   why   does   he   why   does   he   delete   and   then   start   over?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:52</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   if   you   if   you   gave   a   lot   of   people   the   opportunity   to   do   that   with   their   software   projects,   there   was   a   ton   of   people   that   given   the   resources   and   time   would   definitely   say,   yes,   let&#39;s   do   it.   I   mean,   I   think   there&#39;s   always   the   the   adage   of   like   people   underestimate   how   much   work   it   is   to   do   a   rewrite.   And   so   I&#39;d   like   I&#39;m   sort   of   put   that   aside.   I   realize   that   it&#39;s   a   ton   of   work,   but   like,   how   many   people,   if   you   ask   them,   could   you   if   you   had   the   time   the   ability   to   go   back   and   do   it   over   again,   do   you   think   you   could   do   it   better?   Would   that   be   something   you&#39;re   interested   in?   Like   a   ton   of   folks   would   say   yes   to   that.   And   Arthur   has   the   means   to   do   that.   Like   he&#39;s   a   brilliant,   like   brilliant,   like   probably   one   of   the   top   end   developers   in   the   world.   He   basically   does,   I   think,   most   of   the   work   on   his   own.   He&#39;s   responsible   for   one   of   the   fastest   languages   in   the   world.   His   company   that   he   sold,   he   sold   for   a   hundred   million   dollars   in   two   different   installments   once   once   in   2013   and   then   uh   fully   in   2018.   And   people   like   the   banks   that   use   um   Q   and   KDB   Plus,   which   are   sort   of   the   database   and   wordified   version   of   K   that   he   built,   pay   a   million   dollars   a   year   to   use   the   language.   Um,   and   like   every,   almost   every   like   when   I   asked   like   how   many   firms   on   Wall   Street   use   this   to   someone   that   I   I   met   with   in   New   York,   he   said,   almost   almost   everyone.   Like   it&#39;s   it   is   a   it   is   like   the   go-to   language.   And   so   like   Arthur   built   this   incredibly   powerful   tool   where   performance   was   the   only   thing   that   mattered,   and   people   put   up   with   the   you   know,   terseness   and   the   fact   that   it   was   ASCII   symbols,   and   if   you   put   some   expression,   it   looks   crazy.   Because   the   people   that   were   purchasing   it   don&#39;t   care   about   programming   languages   and   what   it   looks   like,   they   care   about   making   money   on   Wall   Street   like   and   doing   real-time   things   that   need   to   be   done   extremely,   extremely   quickly.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:34</time>
      <p>
          Is   it   statically   compiled?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:35</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   interpreted.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:37</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   interpreted.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:38</time>
      <p>
          Yes,   which   shocks   a   lot   of   people.   People   say   interpreted   languages   can&#39;t   be   fast   because   when   people   hear   about   interpreted   languages,   they   think   about   Python.   But   yeah,   if   you   write   an   incredibly   you   know   fast,   you   know,   I   I   don&#39;t   even   know   what   goes   into   K.   You   know,   I   don&#39;t   want   to   start   saying,   Do   you   know   do   you   know   how   it&#39;s   compiled?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:53</time>
      <p>
          Is   it   compiled   on   to   a   bytecode   or   what?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:56</time>
      <p>
          Uh   I   think   it&#39;s   just   a   single   sort   of   executable.   It&#39;s   written   in   C,   very.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:00</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   duh   like   you   say   it&#39;s   interpreted,   but   does   it   does   it   compile   the   language   to   a   bytecode   that   then   gets   run   through   some   bytecode   interpreter   or   I   do   not   know,   but   I   don&#39;t   think   they&#39;re   not   gonna   be   able   to   do   that.   That&#39;s   more   like   how   like   to   make   Python.   Those   like   dot   PYC   files   that   get   left   behind   are   the   uh   byte   compile.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:21</time>
      <p>
          If   my   understanding&#39;s   correct,   and   I&#39;m   sure   we   have   a   number   of   listeners   that   will   immediately   correct   me,   feel   free   to   DM   me   or   comment   on   a   Twitter   thread   or   open   up   a   GitHub   issue.   It&#39;s   just   that   each   of   the   primitives   have   like   some   specialized   code   for   all   the   different   types,   and   it&#39;s   able   to   recognize   quickly   if   you&#39;re   operating   on   some   kind   of   matrix   or   some   time   in   a   kind   of   time   series.   And   so   whenever   you   invoke   some   operation,   it   knows   it   is   able   to   figure   out   the   type   quickly   and   then   dispatch   to   that   statically   compiled   operation,   like   previously   compiled.   So   like   it   is   interpreted,   but   is   essentially   just   ends   up   invoking   specialized   very,   very   fast   code.   But   I   could   be   wrong   about   that.   Like   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:58</time>
      <p>
          But   that&#39;s   how   the   built   ins   work.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:01</time>
      <p>
          Uh   yes.   Okay.   Anyways.   So   the   so   why?   I   mean,   he   sold   the   company   for   and   I   think   even   before   he   was   working   on   K,   he   did   very,   very   well   at   Morgan   Stanley   when   he   was   building   A   and   A,   which   were   basically   predecessors   to   K.   And   A,   and   they   were,   he,   those   were   called   APLs,   just   basically   like   ASCII   versions   of   APL,   which   he   had   learned   originally   when   he   worked   for   IP   Sharpen   Associates.   And   yeah,   like   so   if   you   go   to   this   history   of   K   page,   it   says   that   Arthur   Whitney   left   IP   Sharpen   Associates   in   1992   to   create   a   new   language.   This   was   formed,   uh   they   formed   KX   Systems.   And   uh   K2   and   K3,   K2   and   K3   were   first   commercially   developed   and   supported   versions   of   K,   made   at   KX   Systems.   K3   came   with   a   complete   reference   manual   that   consisted   of   documentation.   KDB   Plus   was   a   database   system   that   was   sold   along   with   K   that   provided   an   in-memory   database   manageable   by   K.   K4   was   released   in   2000.   It   actually   says   200,   so   it&#39;s   missing   a   zero.   In   2003,   along   with   K4,   Q   was   released   as   a   wrapper   around   K,   providing   readability.   K4   requires   a   command   to   switch   from   K   to   Q,   and   the   documentation   at   code.kx.com   does   not   cover   K4.   And   then   Shact,   which   interestingly   now   says   K7,   K9.   It   was   my   understanding   that   the   branding   of   Shact   didn&#39;t   come   out   until   K9,   but   maybe   they   have   retroactively   sort   of   included   K7.   And   it   says   Arthur   Whitney   sold   the   majority   of   his   stake   in   KX   systems   in   2018   and   departed   along   with   a   few   of   his   associates   to   create   the   new   company   called   Shacti,   along   with   which   came   the   creation   and   development   of   the   K7   and   K9   dialects.   K7   was   maintained   for   a   few   years   and   is   no   longer   available   for   use.   K9   is   currently   nascent   and   as   per   on-site   claims,   supports   fast   processing   of   tables   with   row   numbers   in   the   billions   and   trillions.   Binaries   for   K9   are   available   at   Shakti.com.   So   and   yeah,   when   I   asked   the   K   channel   on   the   APL   Discord   what&#39;s   the   state   of   K,   I   got   sort   of   varying   answers   of   I&#39;m   learning   K6.   You   can   find   a   bunch   of   open   source   implementations   of   the   different   Ks.   So   there&#39;s   Kona,   there&#39;s   OK,   but   these   are   all   just   implementations   by   individuals,   not   the   actual   executable   that   was   released   by   Arthur   when   he   was   developing   it,   because   like   I   said,   he   deletes   them   after   he&#39;s   done   using   them.   And   yeah,   I   mean   uh   I   find   K   incredibly   the   story   of   K   and   Q   and   R.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>24:37</time>
      <p>
          So   these   are   not   open   source.   So   when   you   say   he   deletes   them,   like   you   mean   he   deletes   like   his   source   and   he   deletes   the   binary,   or   he   just   deletes   his   source?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:47</time>
      <p>
          That   is   my   understanding,   and   then   that&#39;s   what   he   told   me,   and   then   that&#39;s   what   he&#39;s   told   many   people.   Wow.   Yeah.   And   uh   yeah,   I   mean,   so   if   you&#39;re   wondering,   sort   of   if   you   listen   to   a   ray   cast,   you   know,   why   do   I   like   APL?   I   I   talk   about   APL   and   BQN,   those   are   probably   my   two   favorite   languages.   I   created   this   Venn   diagram,   which   I&#39;m   sure   a   few   of   our   listeners   that   follow   me   on   Twitter   have   seen,   of   sort   of   the   delineation   between   array   languages   and   Iversonian   languages,   and   then   also   there&#39;s   a   circle   for   combinator   languages,   and   K   and   Q   don&#39;t   really   have   support   for   combinators,   and   that&#39;s   like   50%   of   what   I   love   about   array   languages.   So   in   order   to   do   a   lot   of   the   things   that   I   can   do   in   APL   and   BQN,   and   even   J,   J   has   rich   support   for   combinators   as   well.   I   can&#39;t   replicate   that   code   in   uh   Q   and   Q   and   K.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>25:39</time>
      <p>
          Well,   what   what   has   made   these   array   languages,   this   K   family,   so   much   more   successful   than   well,   is   it   more   successful   than   other   array   languages?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>25:53</time>
      <p>
          Well,   so   actually,   I   released   so   this   is   we&#39;re   going   back,   we&#39;re   hopping   in.   If   you   don&#39;t   listen   to   Arraycast,   I&#39;m   gonna   I&#39;m   just   keep   on   bringing   up   things   that   have   been   mentioned   there.   But   so   there   were   two   meetups   that   happened,   one   in   Toronto,   one   in   New   York,   and   that   was   the   reason   you   know   Bryce   and   I   got   to   meet   up,   was   because   I   was   down   there   for   this   meetup.   And   I   released   the   presentation   of   that,   the   re-recording   on   YouTube,   and   one   of   the   comments   I   got   was   Um,   why   would   you   learn   Q?   Because   I   was   including   Q   in   my   sort   of,   it   was   a   comparison   of   seven   different   array   languages,   and   I   added   Q   at   the   last   minute   for   the   YouTube   recording   version.   And   this   comment   was,   Why   are   you   covering   Q?   It&#39;s   a   proprietary   language   that   you   need   to   like   hand   over   your   email   to   use,   and   only   then   you   get   like   a   version   that   has   limited   cores.   You   have   to   limit   your   cores   to   like   two   or   four   or   something   like   that.   And   uh   I   said,   and   then   I   basically   linked   to   this   history   page   and   I   said,   or   I   linked   actually   to   a   pay   uh   a   GitHub   repo   that   tracks   the   number   of   companies   that   are   using   array   languages.   So   J,   APL,   um,   and   like   K   and   Q   and   KDB   plus.   And   I   tallied   it,   there   were   21   using   APL   and   25   using   K,   Q,   or   KDB   plus,   and   which   is   all   the   same   thing.   Just   people   write   it   down   differently.   So   four   more   than   were   listed.   And   obviously,   this   is   not   an   exhaustive   list.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:10</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   so   but   I   I&#39;m   gonna   let&#39;s   just   go   on   the   premise   that   K   is   successful,   because   from   everything   I&#39;ve   heard,   it   sounds   like   it   is.   Why?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:20</time>
      <p>
          Perf.   That   would   be   my   one   word   answer.   I   don&#39;t   think   APL,   and   to   say   that   people   that   use   APL   don&#39;t   care   about   perf   is   I   don&#39;t   think   true   in   all   cases.   That&#39;s   interesting.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:31</time>
      <p>
          So   that   that   sort   of   that   sort   of   means   that   like   for   me   to   really   understand   this,   I   you&#39;re   the   one   person   for   me   to   talk   to.   I   need   to   talk   to   somebody   who   understands   how   this   thing   how   this   thing   is   so   fast.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:43</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I&#39;m   not   sure   how   many   people   in   the   world   know   how   K   is   so   fast   because   there&#39;s   only   one   person   that   works   on   the   source   code,   and   that&#39;s   Arthur   Whitney.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   but   but   no,   people   people   must   have   figured   out   a   bit   about   how   this   thing   operates.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>28:02</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   maybe.   Like   I&#39;m   not   sure   how   many   of   the   Wall   Street   folks   that   are   using   K   and   Q.   I   mean,   we   can   get   on.   I   met   up   with   the   individual   that   uses   K.   We   can   invite   him   on   and   uh   I   mean   we&#39;re   also   supposed   to   have   Marshall   on.   I   said   a   while   ago.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>28:19</time>
      <p>
          We   don&#39;t   always   deliver   on   that.   Um   but   but   I   I   I   find   it   interesting   that   that   if   really   if   the   differentiator   is   performance,   um   my   guess   would   be   that   it&#39;s   not   just   that   it&#39;s   not   just   in   the   implementation.   There   must   be   aspects   of   the   K   language   that   make   it   um   easier   to   um   compile   to   interpret   efficiently   as   composed   to   other   languages.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>28:49</time>
      <p>
          I   just   think   I   think   that   the   way   it&#39;s   implemented,   it&#39;s   like   the   executable   executable   is   incredibly   tiny.   I   mean   I   think   it&#39;s   larger   now,   probably.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>28:57</time>
      <p>
          But   what   I&#39;m   what   I&#39;m   saying   is   that   no,   I   I&#39;m   suggesting   that   the   design   of   the   language   like   the   this   this   need   for   performance   has   probably   influenced   the   design   of   the   language.   Like   if   if   if   A   APL   has   been   around   for   a   long   time.   If   people   could   make   a   faster   APL,   they   probably   would   have.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:19</time>
      <p>
          I   don&#39;t   agree   with   that.   No.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>29:21</time>
      <p>
          Um   why   not?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:23</time>
      <p>
          I   think   so   there   will   there   will   be   people   that   disagree   with   me.   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   said   this   statement   to   several   people.   Some   people   have   completely   agreed,   other   people   would   say   that&#39;s   not   the   case   at   all.   So   just   let   it   be   said   that   varying   opinions   on   this   statement,   but   originally   APL   was   not   a   programming   language.   It   was   a   notation   for   teaching.   And   that&#39;s   what   Ken   Iverson,   the   person   that   created   the   notation,   it   was   called   Iverson   Notation,   cared   about.   He   cared   about   being   a   tool   for   teaching.   That&#39;s   why   his   paper,   when   he   won   the   Turing   Award   in   1979,   was   called   Notation   as   a   Tool   of   Thought.   And   it&#39;s   my   impression   from   all   the   papers   that   I&#39;ve   read   about   Ken   and   his   work   with   education   is   that   he   actually   didn&#39;t   care   about   performance.   It   doesn&#39;t   mean   he   didn&#39;t   necessarily   think   it   was   important   at   the   end   of   the   day,   but   like   when   he   was   designing   J   and   designing   APL,   he   was   thinking   about   how   this   affects   the   way   people   think,   not   about   how   fast   is   this   going   to   run.   And   because   of   that,   a   large   percentage   of   the   array   language   community,   when   it   comes   to   APL   and   J   don&#39;t   care   about   perf.   They   care   about   it   as   a   desktop   calculator   that   can   do   way   more   than   just   you   know   integer   arithmetic,   but   can   do   stuff   with   you   know   CSV   files.   And   if   you   need   to   do   something   super   quickly,   it&#39;s   you   know   a   super   good   quote   unquote   tool   of   thought   tool.   That   being   said,   I   think   there   are   people   that   do   care   about   perf,   and   I   think   dialogue   APL   has   done   an   incredible   amount   of   work   optimizing   idiom   recognition   and   stuff.   But   to   say   that   someone   could   just,   oh,   if   if   someone   could   create   a   faster   APL,   it   would   have   been   done.   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   because   I   agree,   except   that   it   it   wasn&#39;t   done,   other   than   maybe   like   the   the   APL   that   we&#39;re   talking   about   is   K.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:03</time>
      <p>
          Perhaps   it   wasn&#39;t   done   because   of   things   inherent   to   the   design   of   the   language.   Like   you&#39;re   acting   as   if   the   language   of   APL   and   the   language   of   K   are   just   like   interchangeable   things,   and   if   the   design   of   the   language   has   no   impact   on   like   performance.   The   design   of   the   language   definitely   has   impact   on   performance.   Now   I&#39;m   just   not   qualified   to   tell   you   what   what   different   design   decisions   in   K   versus   APL   has   performance   impacts,   because   I   just   don&#39;t   know   enough   about   those   languages.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:36</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I   do   know   that   one   of   the   things   that   Arthur   is   famous   for   saying   is   there   is   no   operation   in   the   language   that&#39;s   10   times   slower   than   any   other   operation.   So   every   operation   is   within   an   order   of   magnitude   because   in   the   past   there&#39;s   been   attempts   to   write   high-performance   APL   machines.   I&#39;ll   link   it   in   the   show   notes   if   people   want   to   read   about   it,   but   they   implemented   these   extremely   fast   primitives,   but   when   you   ran   whole   programs,   the   primitives   would   be   really   fast,   but   you&#39;d   spend   99%   of   your   time   in   this   operations   that   weren&#39;t   weren&#39;t   critical.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:06</time>
      <p>
          How   does   APL   differ   from   K?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:08</time>
      <p>
          Well,   the   the   number   one   thing   is   one&#39;s   Unicode,   one&#39;s   ASCII,   but   you   can   kind   of   ignore   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:13</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:13</time>
      <p>
          The   second   thing   is   that   my   and   I&#39;m   sort   of,   once   again,   people   can   correct   me.   I&#39;m   not   a   case   of   the   case.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:17</time>
      <p>
          And   for   the   record,   I   don&#39;t   think   that   the   the   uh   the   choice   of   Unicode   sym   symbols   for   uh   APL   syntax,   I   do   not   believe   that   has   any   real   impact   on   the   uh   the   speed   with   which   you   can   interpret   the   program.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:34</time>
      <p>
          Um   probably   not,   but   in   in   line   with   what   I   said   earlier   about   Ken,   it   does   impact   the   tool   of   thought,   which   is   why   I   bring   it   up,   because   it&#39;s   much   harder   for   an   ASCII   symbol   to   be   uh   visually   representative   or   new,   is   how   do   you   pronounce   that,   of   the   operation   um   than   it   is   for   a   Unicode   symbol   that&#39;s   like   tailored.   The   second   thing   is   that   K   and   Q   don&#39;t   have   uh   true   higher   dimensional   arrays,   and   they   also   don&#39;t   have   a   rank   operator.   They   do   have   the   concept   of   rank,   but   I   think   the   primary   data   structure   is   an   array,   but   also   second   to   that   is   something   called   uh   a   table,   I   believe,   or   dictionary.   I&#39;m   gonna   mess   up   what   it&#39;s   actually   called,   but   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   more   of   a   hash   map   of   vectors,   where   each   of   the   values   is   a   vector   that   doesn&#39;t   necessarily   have   to   have   the   same   length.   And   so   you   do   a   lot   more   with   hash   maps   than   you   do   in   other   array   languages   because   hash   maps   don&#39;t   exist   in   other   array   languages.   So   things   like   querying   and   the   database.   So   that&#39;s   the   other   thing   is   KDB   plus,   the   K   language   and   Q   language   come   with   an   incredibly   powerful   uh   database.   And   I   think   it   specifically   has   like   a   ton   of   functionality   for   time   series   stuff,   which   obviously   if   you&#39;re   on   Wall   Street,   is   stuff   you   want   to   do.   And   there   is   a   database   that   comes   with   J   called   JD,   I   believe,   which   is   kind   of   supposed   to   be   in   the   similar   vein   as   what   KDB   Plus   does.   But   um,   yeah,   in   APL,   there   are   databases,   Flipdb,   stuff   like   that,   but   like   nothing   that   was   built   like   tailor-made   for   high   frequency   Wall   Street   stuff.   So   the   existence   of   dictionaries,   and   also   too,   I&#39;ve   like   I&#39;ve   talked   to   a   few   people,   uh   Michael   Higginson,   who   just   won   the   APL   um   profional   tier   of   the   APL   contest,   and   uh   another   individual,   and   these   folks   have   been   telling   me   how   like   you   know,   I   need   to   learn   more   about   K   and   Q   so   I   can   speak,   because   there&#39;s   a   bunch   of   stuff.   Like,   I   think   one   of   the   things   that   uh   Michael   mentioned,   uh,   and   I   apologize,   Michael,   if   I&#39;m   gonna   get   this   wrong,   but   he   mentioned   that   you   can   have   well,   so   actually,   this   is   something   I   know   for   a   fact   that   I   didn&#39;t   get   from   Michael&#39;s   that   most   of   the   functions   in   J,   APL,   BQN   are   limited   to   sort   of   two   arguments,   unary   function   and   binary   function.   And   when   you   want   to   have   multiple   arguments,   I   believe   the   idiomatic   thing   is   to   sort   of   chain   them   into   a   list   of   things   and   then   destructure   them.   So   really   you&#39;ve   got   unary   and   binary.   Whereas   in   K,   you   can   you   can   have   any   airity   functions.   They&#39;ve   got   a   syntax   for   basically   a   function   and   then   it   is   defined   by   braces,   and   then   at   the   front   of   it,   you   put   in   brackets   and   then   you   just   separate   with   semicolons   all   of   your   arguments.   So   if   you   want   to   have   an   a   function   with   five   arguments,   you   just   go   ABCDE.   And   you   can   do   basically,   and   this   is   the   thing   that   Michael   told   me,   he   says   you   can,   I   can&#39;t   remember   if   it&#39;s   called   like   modifying   the   valence,   but   if   you   basically   want   to   do   partial   application   to   any   of   the   arguments,   so   similar   in   C   when   we   have,   you   know,   bind   front   or   bind   last,   or   before   we   had   those   two,   we   had   bind,   you   had   those   like   underscore   one,   underscore   two,   you   know,   to   place   the   placeholders   for   the   variables   that   you   would   want   to   take   from   the   return   function.   You   can   there&#39;s   a   super   convenient   syntax   for   that   where   basically   you   can   do   partial   application   for   so   if   you   want   to,   if   you   have   a   uh   five   function,   five   argument   function   and   you   want   to   turn   that   into   a   three   argument   function   with   the   first,   third,   and   fifth   uh   arg   arguments.   That&#39;s   super   simple   to   do.   You   basically   just   like   fill   them   in   and   you   can   you   sort   you   have   first   class   functions.   That&#39;s   another   thing   that   uh   K   and   Q   have,   whereas   APL   and   J   don&#39;t.   They   have   first   class   functions,   and   so   you   can   do   wait.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>35:59</time>
      <p>
          APL   doesn&#39;t   have   first   class   functions?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>36:01</time>
      <p>
          No.   It   has   D   funds,   which   are   similar   to   Lambdas.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>36:07</time>
      <p>
          A   bit   of   an   odd.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>36:08</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   you   gotta   remember   APL   was   created   in   1960.   Well,   first   implementation   was   in   1966.   And   BQN,   the   newest   Iversonian   APL   language,   does   have   first   class   functions   and   is   much   more   functional   in   a   number   of   ways.   Um   yeah.   We   should   we   should   either   have   um   some   of   the   Q   folks   that   I&#39;ve   talked   to,   we   should   bring   on   Michael,   or   I   should   go.   I&#39;m   thinking.   So   here&#39;s   here&#39;s   I   was   gonna   tease   this   on   a   uh   a   ray   cast,   but   too   late   now.   I&#39;ll   just   say   it   here.   Um   I   mean   I   was   gonna,   but   then   I   left   it   out.   But   I&#39;m   thinking   about   for   because   we&#39;ve   been   sort   of   on   a   break,   my   programming   language   is   a   virtual   meetup   for   the   last   couple   months   since   July.   And   I&#39;m   thinking   about   the   next   book,   just   being   a   dictator   and   choosing   it,   usually   there&#39;s   a   vote,   and   making   it   Q   for   Mortals,   which   is   a   book   that&#39;s   on   the   KX   website   for   learning   Q.   Um   and   uh   once   I   get   through   that   book,   I&#39;ll   be   much   more   informed.   Will   I   know   how   the   implementation   and   why   the   language   is   so   fast?   I&#39;m   not   sure.   But   yeah.   We&#39;re   at   like   the   I   don&#39;t   know,   30-minute   mark.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>37:14</time>
      <p>
          The   brisket   is   was   at   166   when   I   last   chucked,   which   was   about   two   minutes   ago.   You   got   until   the   brisket&#39;s   at   about   180,   and   then   I   really   gotta   watch   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>37:26</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I   mean,   what   else   do   you   want   to   know   about   uh   K   slash   Q?   I   mean,   uh   we   basically   kind   of   covered   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>37:31</time>
      <p>
          ASCII   language,   dictionary,   okay,   but   you   said   he   created   some   other   languages.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>37:35</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   yeah.   Like,   well,   I   mentioned   A,   A.   That   was   when   he   was   at   Morgan   Stanley.   He   left   um   well,   actually,   it   says   on   this   history   page   that   Whitney   left   IP   Sharpen   Associates   in   1992.   I   thought   he   left   IP   Sharpen   Associates   to   go   to   Morgan   Stanley,   and   then   he   worked   at   Morgan   Stanley   for   a   year,   and   then   I   thought   actually   maybe   he   even   worked   at   another   bank   before   he   started   KX.   But   regardless,   he   worked   at   a   couple   banks   at   some   point,   worked   at   IP   Sharpen   Associates,   and   when   he   was   at   the   banks,   is   when   I   thought   he   was   working   on   A   and   A.   He   also   wrote   a   language   called   B,   which   is   actually   open   source   and   online.   I&#39;ll   find   a   link   to   it,   throw   it   in   the   show   notes.   And   you&#39;ll   get   a   taste   for   the   style   of   C   code,   which   is   very   similar   to   the   way   that   um   J   is   programmed,   uh,   which   is   open   source,   which   is   very,   very   macro   heavy.   I   think   when   I   was   working   on   the   J   source   code   trying   to   port   it   to   C,   I   measured   and   there   was   like   10,000   macros.   Um   so   they   and   they   they   it&#39;s   not   like   oh   macros   the   way   we   use   them   in   C   like   they   create   macros   for   everything,   and   then   you   program   in   macros   basically,   like   um   for   a   dyadic   or   a   monadic   function,   aka   a   unary   function   or   a   um   binary   function,   they   have   v1   and   v2,   and   that&#39;s   how   you   define   a   function   that   has   one   or   two   variables.   For   four   loops,   they&#39;ve   got,   you   know,   everything.   So   everything   is   a   macro,   and   I   think   that&#39;s   similar   to   how   um   Arthur   Whitney   has   designed   his   and   famously   there&#39;s   something   called   the   in   canabulum,   which   is   actually   a   word   that   means   a   book   before   it&#39;s   a   book   or   something.   Um,   and   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   called   the   J   in   Canabulum.   And   Ken   Iverson   wanted   Arthur   Whitney   to   work   on   J   with   him   when   basically   Ken   decided   we&#39;re   done   with   APL,   we&#39;re   done   with   Unicode   symbols.   We&#39;ve   tried   for   three   decades.   Unfortunately,   they   didn&#39;t   wait   for   like   five   more   years   when   like   Unicode   became   a   thing.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>39:27</time>
      <p>
          And   so   they   switched   to   I   do   not   think   that   Unicode   becoming   the   thing   would   have   substantially   improved   the   uh   likelihood   of   APL   seeing   widespread   adoption.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>39:37</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   you   know,   we&#39;ll   never   know.   But   uh   the   point   is   that   it&#39;s   a   lot   easier.   That&#39;s   because   you&#39;re   a   C   programmer.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>39:49</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   not   a   C   specific   problem.   The   state   of   Unicode   support   just   across   software   in   general,   does   not   lead   me   to   believe   that   the   world,   even   today,   is   ready   for   a   language   that   leans   so   heavily   on   Unicode.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>40:05</time>
      <p>
          Uh,   yeah,   I   mean   it&#39;s   a   fair   take.   It&#39;s   a   fair   take.   Um   but   yeah,   so   when   Ken   was   starting   work   on   his   new   language   J,   aka   L   APL   2.0,   and   even   there&#39;s   a   presentation.   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   it&#39;s   recorded   and   online,   but   I   definitely   know   the   slide   deck   is   something,   and   I   believe   it&#39;s   called   APL   question   mark   or   something.   And   it&#39;s   this   presentation   of   this   new   quote   unquote,   it   was   called   an   APL   at   the   time,   but   just   not   with   Unicode   symbols,   and   he   was   presenting   it   at   an   APL   conference,   and   kind   of   everyone   was   like,   whoa,   whoa,   whoa,   you&#39;re   calling   this   an   APL?   This   isn&#39;t   an   APL,   you   know,   to   the   guy   who   invented   the   whole   thing.   Anyways,   he   went   to   Ken,   or   sorry,   he   went   to   Arthur   to   ask   him   to   work   on   it.   Arthur   said,   no,   I&#39;ve   got   my   own   plans,   aka   plus,   you   know,   K.   And,   or   at   that   point,   maybe   he   had   already   done   A   and   A   plus   and   he   was   about   to   go   on   to   K.   But   he   went   to   this   farm   and   there&#39;s   a   Wikipedia   page   that   explains   this   whole   thing.   And   so   even   though   he   was   telling   Ken   no,   he   said,   I&#39;ll   get   you   started.   And   he   wrote   this   single   page   of   J   code,   and   um   that   was   basically   the   start   of   the   J   programming   language,   and   it&#39;s   called   the   J   Incanabulum,   I   believe   is   how   you   pronounce   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>41:13</time>
      <p>
          Um   why   um   okay,   so   he   created   A,   A   plus,   B.   And   why&#39;d   he   go   to   K?   Like   I   mean,   I   mean   Like   what&#39;s   the   name?   Alphabetic,   yes,   alphabetically.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>41:27</time>
      <p>
          Like   why   so   A   was   clearly   short   just   for   A   plus.   Um,   and   array   language   is   love   their   single   letter   stuff.   So   APL   was   just   a   single   letter   version   of   APL.   And   then   or   sorry,   A   is   a   single   letter   of   APL.   Yeah.   A   plus   is   because   they   added   a   GUI   to   A.   So   A   plus   is   just   A   with   a   GUI.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>41:48</time>
      <p>
          B   follows   pretty   clearly,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>41:49</time>
      <p>
          But   then   C   was   taken.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>41:52</time>
      <p>
          Okay.   What   about   D?   Uh   not   taken   at   that   time.   I   don&#39;t   think   D   was   taken   at   the   time.   What   about   E?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>41:59</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   know   about   that,   but   so   I   think   at   that   time,   J,   actually,   I   don&#39;t   know   if   K   got   named   first   or   J   after,   but   the   reason   J   was   chosen   was   because   when   they   were   starting   on   the   language   and   doing   work,   Roger   Huey,   the   main   implementer   on   it,   was   told   to   like   get   started   or   whatever,   and   so   he   just   named   the   file.   If   you   look   at   your   keyboard,   if   you&#39;re   sitting   in   front   of   a   computer   right   now,   which   probably   none   of   you   are,   what   letter   on   your   keyboard   has   a   little   thing   that   you   put   your   index   finger?   Yeah,   index   finger   is   resting.   So   it   was   just   the   easiest   letter   to   type.   So   he   just   saved   his   file   as   like   j.c,   and   then   that&#39;s   what   the   name   of   the   language   became.   YK?   I   actually   don&#39;t   know.   I   don&#39;t   like   you   know,   k   comes   after   J,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>42:42</time>
      <p>
          Boy,   the   array   programming   language   historian,   a   rare   falter.   Alright,   you   you   you   you   look   that   up.   I&#39;m   gonna   I&#39;m   gonna   check   on   the   brisket.   We   are   getting   there.   171.3.   This   is   great,   great   podcast   content.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>43:03</time>
      <p>
          I   was   gonna   say,   I&#39;m   on   the   KAPL   wiki.com   page,   and   it   says   this   is   not   answer   the   question,   but   I   just   learned   something.   K7,   the   first   Shack   DK,   was   the   first   K   to   have   full   Unicode   support.   Oh,   that&#39;s   not   a   good   one.   Wait,   wait,   okay,   so   so   can   we   talk   so   many   characters?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>43:19</time>
      <p>
          So   so   he   sold   he   he   creates   this   company.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>43:24</time>
      <p>
          Who&#39;s   Chris?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>43:25</time>
      <p>
          No,   he   creates   this   company.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>43:27</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   creates.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>43:29</time>
      <p>
          Then   he   sells   then   it   it   becomes   you   know   big   and   popular,   then   he   sells   it.   Then   he   goes   off   and   keeps   making   new   K   languages.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>43:39</time>
      <p>
          Yes,   correct.   I   think   he   collected   40   million   in   like   2013.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>43:44</time>
      <p>
          And   like   were   the   people   at   K   uh   who   bought   this   this   company   from   him   perhaps   not   thrilled   about   this?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>43:53</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   yeah,   probably   not.   Probably   not.   I   mean,   I&#39;ve   I   have   not   talked   to   anyone   directly   at   first   derivatives   about   like   how   do   you   feel   about   um   Arthur   continuing   to   do   exactly   what   he   was   doing   before?   Uh   but   I   would   imagine   that   they   would   have   probably   been   happier   if   he   had   just   retired.   Also,   too,   uh   someone   corrected   me   when   I   was   in   New   York,   said   that,   you   know,   it&#39;s   not   Arthur   didn&#39;t   own   100%   of   the   company.   So   he   didn&#39;t   and   he   sold   the   company   for   a   hundred   million,   but   there   was   obviously   other   shareholders   and   stuff.   So   he   he   got   a   percentage   of   a   hundred   million,   which   I   said,   you   know,   does   that   matter?   Like   forty   million,   a   hundred   million.   Those   those   two   are   the   same   number   to   me,   and   he   was   clearly   not   from   the   yuck.   All   right,   you   know.   Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>