Bryce

It is so chaotic and ridiculous that I am confident that it will not last. And by not last, I don't mean that like Twitter will be destroyed. I believe Twitter is more resilient than Elon. I believe that uh that Twitter will outlast and and will uh will eventually um be fine.

Conor

Welcome to ADSP the podcast episode 109, recorded on December 22nd, 2022. My name is Connor, and today with my co-host Bryce, we do our third holiday special where we talk about whatever we want, a plethora of topics, including Twitter, Elon Musk, Christmas trees, travel, and so much more. Folks, for the first time in over a month and a half, let's take a look at the exact dates. We recorded on today is one day before this goes out to Zoom.

Bryce

Are those new headphones? I have that that model.

Conor

Uh no. These I've been using for months now, so you're not observing. We it doesn't even actually say, so yeah, we recorded. We recorded on November 2nd with Jane.

Bryce

Yeah.

Conor

And the last time we recorded without a guest together was October 27th. So it's almost been two months. It's almost been two months since we've had a monoe mono ADSP recording. I've been looking forward to this because I actually haven't talked to you in like you were gone to Kona and then to Japan and then to Amsterdam. And ever since you've been back, I've I was away for a bit. Anyways, how's it going? First of all, happy holidays. I think I think we agreed last year we're allowed to say Merry Christmas because it's our podcast and we can do what we want. But did we? Well, we did.

Bryce

I have a Christmas tree. Wait, one second.

Conor

Oh, yes. So Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, happy holidays to whatever non-religion, a religion, a religious thing. I can, yes. And I also see a uh what is that called a stocking? A little Santa's boot stocking.

Bryce

I have the successfully not set the apartment on fire.

Conor

Is it a real tree?

Bryce

Yeah. It's a real tree. Is that allowed in your apartment or are you breaking rules here and hopefully none of the uh the dormant the doorman helped me bring it up, so I'm pretty sure that it's probably it's okay.

Conor

Damn. Why? So uh, you know, just trying try trying out different holidays. What's going on, Brace?

Bryce

Well, I'm Jewish, but the girlfriend is not Jewish, so I see.

Conor

I see. You've compromised. Yeah. Although I've you've told me. Well, no, I got I got it.

Bryce

I got it as a surprise. She's not like, you know, super into Christmas, but she never really had like Christmas tree growing up. So I was like, all right, well, we gotta get a Christmas tree.

Conor

Gotta get a Christmas tree. I do not have a Christmas tree. I've got plants, but no Christmas tree. Uh, because it's uh more work than it's worth.

Bryce

Um Yeah, it it it does seem to be like a lot of work, and um, you know, I um I it's okay. All right.

Conor

Also, too. Let's just pause here for some folks. This is our third holiday special episode. If you if you're new to the podcast and didn't go watch the entire backlog, which I mean, come on, what are you doing? You're probably on holiday right now. Head back to episode zero and work your way through it. We talk about whatever we want to today, so it's gonna probably be a 30-minute, 60-minute episode. Last year, I think we committed to going on a trip to Slovenia, our number one, our number one country. And uh, we called that episode uh holiday special Ljubljana, which is the capital of Slovenia. Here we come. And uh the first year, who knows what we talked about two years ago. But anyways, back to you, Bryce. So for folks thinking this isn't technical in nature, you know, that's this was a good one.

Bryce

I wanted to surprise the girlfriend with the uh the Christmas tree. Um and uh so I did all the preparations. She was in uh Portland for work, and so I I did all the preparations that week. Um, but I then she came back in the weekend, and so I had everything like prepared. I had all the gifts wrapped and like hidden in various places around the apartment. And that part was actually easy because she's short, she's like five feet tall. And so I just put everything, not even hot, I didn't even put things at like a high height. I just put things at like a regular height for me, and I'm like, I didn't even have to worry about her looking up because she she just like her her awareness of the world ends at like six feet, and she's not gonna look up taller than that. So I just I just hit all of the gaps. Um and uh I I I you know I asked people on Twitter for advice about uh you know how how to buy a tree. And pretty much all of my uh respected friends and colleagues on Twitter told me you should buy an artificial tree. Um because you know it's a lot less hassle, it's less expensive. Um but she had said she likes the smell of pine, so I I ignored everybody's very timely and and uh wise advice um and and bought a tree. But I I determined that I need to buy a tree on on Sunday, and she had tennis uh from like at 2 on Sunday. Um and then she was gonna come back at around 4.30, and then she had a facial at 5.30.

Conor

And we're getting a whole, like, you know, giving up people a lot of information to stock your girlfriend here.

Bryce

Yeah. But um, but so what I I felt needed to happen was that after she got back from the facial, that's when the tree needed to be set up, and I was gonna cook dinner that night. Um so I would have between like 540 and 7 uh to set up the tree and to like to sort of set everything up. Um and so my plan was okay, when she's playing tennis, I'll go and buy the tree, and I'll get the dorm in to hide it somewhere in the building. Um, and then I'll start the food prep for dinner. Um and uh and then uh when she's at the space show, I'll do the actual setup. And I I made a mistake, and the mistake was that like a day or two before uh the event, I I was just gonna make like steak. Because she just loves steak, like steak and steamed vegetables and mashed food. Who doesn't love steak? Like that is that that is like her ideal meal. And like like I'm not saying that she likes bland food, she just she likes very simple food. You know, she's like steak. She likes simple food. Steak is not bland. She likes simple food like Dunwell. She likes she doesn't want things that are like over seasoned. Um but so that meal was gonna be simple, but then like a day or two before, I uh my favorite YouTube chef and baker, I saw a new video from him on this potato soup, and I'm like, that looks really good. I'm gonna make that instead. So I printed out the recipe, I did all the meal prep, but it's a soup. And uh soups, you know, tend to take a bit of time, they have to simmer, and they tend to need a bit of attention. Um, in particular, this one, it needed there were like there were two steps where I needed to do something for 10 minutes, and then there was one step where I needed it to like simmer for for 40 minutes. So there were like 30 minutes of like active cook time in that, like where I needed to be at the stove during this recipe. And I only realized this after I had purchased the tree and after she'd come back uh and was in the apartment before she left for the facial. And so then I realized, oh crap, in addition to having just about an hour to uh set up and and decorate this tree and set up all the presents, um I'm also gonna have to cook dinner and like be at the stove at the same time. So oh and and and I had you know the dog in the apartment who was like very confused and scared um by the Christmas tree. And um I also had to get a uh a bow on the dog, which was no easy feat. So about five minutes before she she comes back into the apartment, things are like a complete chaos. I'm like, oh I'm not ready. Um but then everything everything sort of came together. But I got Christmas tree lights, um, like the ones you plug into the wall, but then I realized um like there's Is there a different kind? Well, no, what yes, there is. There are there are battery operated ones, and I realized a couple days before, like, you know, there's not really an outlet that's convenient to the tree. Um, and so maybe I'll try some of these battery operated ones. But um, I got like four of them, and like they each have their own battery pack. And then I had to like figure out like, okay, like, well, how do I like string these around the tree and place the battery pack in a in a place where it's gonna be easy to reach? It's just it's not a very well decorated tree. Um I will put pictures of it on Twitter since I asked everybody's advice, but you have to understand that the reason it's not very well decorated is because I had about an I had about 20 to 30 minutes to decorate it while I also had soup that was somewhat burning on the stovetop.

Conor

Well, perfect. This is what you do. Send me one of the photos, boom, tomorrow, we tweet it out with the episode. Yes. It's completely festive, fits perfectly with the festive theme of our holiday special. Although in the past we've talked about nothing festive before, so this is our first festive holiday special.

Bryce

And so sp speaking of my travel, um Wait, how did the soup turn out?

Conor

Don't don't leave us hanging like that, my guy.

Bryce

The soup was great. I just had some of the soup and some of the leftover steak.

Conor

Perfect. Alright. Well, I mean, that's what's that what matters most is the is the potato soup. Is uh I was like, who's joining this call? Holy smokes, what is this?

Bryce

This was my year in travel.

Conor

Wow.

Bryce

I will uh I will also.

Conor

I'm looking at what looks like a crime, one of those Philadelphia, you know, Sunny and Philadelphia boards. It's like we we can see that the uh the syndicate is headquartered in New York. There's still a lot of activity in Europe, and it seems like they definitely have a sort of mini syndicate over in Hawaii.

Bryce

So so I have flown 33 flights this year, 19 domestic, 14 international. I have flown about 80,000 miles, which is around the Earth, 3.2 times, or a third of the way to the moon. I have been on a plane for 7.8 days this year.

Conor

How does it feel to be killing the planet?

Bryce

Yeah, we're gonna ignore that one.

Conor

Do you lose any sleep at night knowing your carbon footprint is like like 100x the average? It's probably actually a thousand x the average.

Bryce

I lose no sleep. I love planes. Um I have been uh I I've had eight flights in the UK, uh, 27 flights in the US, eight flights in the UK, four flights in Japan, um, and I guess I've been to Canada once. Um I've also gone through Hong Kong um in the Netherlands. Um let's see where there's stats are here that are interesting. My flights per month.

Conor

So definitely, definitely ramped up.

Bryce

Yeah, Joe in July, six a month, then five months in August, five a month in September, only two in October. Which is shocking. Actually, I'm not sure that's right. I might have missed some. Um seven in November and uh four in December. Yeah.

Conor

So wait, how many flights in total this year? 33. I'm trying to just roughly ballpark. I d I definitely did not hit double digits. I mean, I fly nowhere n nowhere near as much as you do.

Bryce

Oh, and I I I've also flown around the world uh twice. Like it I've had two trips where I've gone um uh entirely around the world. The first one was um uh New York to London, London to um uh to Tokyo, Tokyo to um Toronto, Toronto to New York. And then the second one was um uh New York to Dallas, Dallas to Honolulu, Honolulu to Kona, Kona to Honolulu, Honolulu to uh Tokyo, uh Tokyo to Osaka, Osaka to Hong Kong, Hong Kong to Amsterdam, uh Amsterdam to Veldhoven, Veldhoven to Dusseldorp, Dusseldorp to London, how do you memorize this stuff, my guy? And London to New York. I told you I like planes.

Conor

Yeah, no kidding. Is your goal is your 2023 goal to beat this?

Bryce

Yeah, and and I I've uh uh I've had very good luck this year on uh on upgrades and on traveling on points, and that has been that has been excellent.

Conor

Yeah, maybe in uh maybe in my retirement I'll uh I'll be able to you know hit Bryce level uh mileage.

Bryce

Yeah, I I think I may I may beat this uh next year. We just um we just booked our we're going on a a family vacation. My my whole family's going to to Tuscany uh next September, and we just booked our flights and um the girlfriend and I are gonna spend some time in uh Spain before that.

Conor

Um Is that like to juxtapose with the wedding in Italy?

Bryce

With the what in Italy?

Conor

I thought you said you were going to a w a wedding or is it a conference? Isn't there something in Italy you were doing next year?

Bryce

Yes, that there is a um that's in May. The GGC One meeting is in Italy. Um this is an unrelated Italy. I'm just gonna be in Italy twice. Like it's just I happen to be in Japan twice this year, I'm gonna happen to be in Italy twice next year. But um we are flying uh we we just booked our uh tickets on points to to fly to uh to get there to um Milan in uh on Emirates, which is uh Oh yeah, I've seen the videos. Yeah, yeah.

Conor

They usually have a bar, a bar at the back of the plane.

Bryce

They do have a bar at the back of the plane, and um uh so we're flying there in business class, and then Ramona is flying back in business class, and I'm flying back in first class. Hopefully we're gonna upgrade her because I haven't quite told her yet, but if there's only one business if there's only one first class seat, as as much as I love her dearly, as much as I typically would be the gentleman as my you know, I do all of our laundry, I do all the cooking, all all the things like that, but I'll be taking that first class seat.

Conor

That's understandable. I wouldn't sp expect anything less from you, Bryce.

Bryce

I think she she like you understands that I have this weird, like childish joy about airplanes, and I think that like she totally gets that like that I will get 10x out of that experience that she will.

Conor

That's true. What do they call that theory? Uh utilitarianism. The greatest amount of joy for the greatest amount of people.

Bryce

Yes, and that that is going to be the argument that I will use. You're welcome. But um, but please, Emirates, open up another another first class seat so that so that I don't have to have this argument. But there's a shower on board that plane. I am gonna shower on the plane.

Conor

Uh do you know Casey Neistat?

Bryce

I don't know that I do.

Conor

He's a famous YouTuber, and uh he had a couple of viral videos of like flying on the most expensive, you know, airplane ticket in the world, and it was one of the Emirates flights, and it had a whole, you know, yeah, shower you get to go use for 20 minutes or 10 minutes or something, and blah blah blah. Anyways, he filmed himself taking a show, like not, you know, you didn't get to see him fully taking a shower, but he took the camera in there and he's like, Look at this, I'm taking a shower on a plane. And I was like, you know.

Bryce

I do I do have a uh uh a travel-related size. You and I have talked, although not on the podcast before, about my um my obsession with traveling on points. Um and uh that that's that's become my my uh my new thing. The way I've justified it is like I I need some some pastime to do, and I can get very obsessive about my pastimes, so like I can't play video games because then I would just spend all my time playing video games.

Conor

I mean, you could play video games, you just choose.

Bryce

Yeah, but it I would just it would just consume all my time. And and so if I'm going to do something obsessive in my spare time to keep myself amused, um figuring out how to maximize uh credit card spending and loyalty points and and frequent flyer miles and stuff like that, um, that seems like a pretty good a pretty good use in my time. Because uh the vacation we just took to Japan, we did pretty much all on points, and the trip to Italy and Spain next year will do all on points. Um But uh one one thing I've been researching recently is could I become my own travel agent? Because travel agents have access to the airline in um inventory systems, um, they can issue their own tickets, they can like they have a lot more information than your typical, you know, frequent flyer. So I've started researching like, okay, what would I have to do to become certified like as a travel agent so that I could s get like access to um to all of the the airline inventory systems. And also travel agents get like great um uh uh deals because all the airlines um and all the hotels and all the the the tourist companies want the travel agents to you know try out their product. So I I've I have been researching this.

Conor

I would assume like my first thought is that you'd you'd get stuff in like bulk from like Costco style, you know, so like you have to do a certain amount of business. Would you would you be able to satisfy that? Or is that like a wrong assumption?

Bryce

Well, to deal with any of the um to deal with airlines and hotels, etc., you have to get certified by one of the major travel agency um, you know, uh uh industry organizations. And the reason for that is like there's a lot of travel agencies tend a lot of them tend to be small businesses. And um, you know, let let's say that somebody's got like, you know, you start a travel agency in your, you know, as your home business. Um how does how does American Airlines know that you're legit? And how have the how do they like vet you to determine whether they're going to give you access to their systems and that you're not gonna abuse it? Well the the answer is they don't. What they do bet is they vet that this you know, this um industry organization with travel agents, um, you know, American Airlines agrees with them, hey, you know, anybody that you certify will will give access to our system, and then that agency uh you know, comes up with a certification process usually involving some money for people that want to become travel agents. And you you have to like like show that you have like a somewhat legit business and show that you have assets and that you're not just like, you know, a rando on the internet. Um but uh but I have a great desire to figure out how to make this happen.

Conor

Alright. I look forward to you being my travel agent as well.

Bryce

Um I do I do now have um uh uh uh a number of my friends now know that if they want to travel somewhere or if they have questions about like how do I get from point A to point B, they do now know that they can totally nerd snipe me by just asking me, and then I'll be like, you know, I'll just like spend like four hours that day like researching and sending them back like way more detailed information than they need. Yeah. Um it brings me great joy. It does bring me great joy. Yeah.

Conor

Alright, well we've hit the 20 minute mark. A few of our listeners have turned off by now.

Bryce

I do I do have a technical topic.

Conor

But wait, I want to get to my questions for you first. Um, and then we'll get to so we've got a list of things to get to. I think the first and most important pressing thing we need to discuss is do you know what it is? I actually didn't I actually didn't DM you this one, so this is this is a topic you don't know about, uh uh. But we have to we have to discuss. I mean it's it's very topical, everyone's talking about it. And it's relevant for both of us, obviously.

Bryce

I don't know.

Conor

Twitter.

Bryce

Oh, Twitter? No, I don't want to talk about Twitter.

Conor

Alright, well we're talking about Twitter. I can cut this out if you don't want it to air, but we need to talk about Twitter.

Bryce

Look, I I uh peep people may have wondered why haven't I tweeted anything about the craziness that's going on at Twitter? And I have thought about it um about tweeting something a few times in the past few weeks, because like I I haven't I haven't gone and joined Mastodon or and I haven't uh uh you know said that I'm leaving Twitter or um you know tweeted about how even Wicked Elon is, and I mean I d I I do think he is, but there's a simple reason for that. Um you know, I've been in this industry for 10 years now, no, closer to 12 years. And um I've seen a decent amount of shit, and I have seen how I have seen what an unsustainable situation looks like. And and the one thing that I've s that I've I've learned, or one thing I've learned throughout my career is that unseen unsustainable, chaotic environments tend to collapse in upon themselves. And so I I I I I've simply not said anything because it is so chaotic and ridiculous that I am confident that it will not last. And by not last, I don't mean that like Twitter will be destroyed. I believe Twitter is more resilient than Elon. I believe that uh that Twitter will outlast and and will will eventually um be fine. Um and uh I just don't see any any reason to engage with or feed this megalomaniac's, you know, um ego. Um so I I'm I'm just ignoring it because I think in three to six months um uh Twitter will be more or less fine and Elon may still own it, but he's gonna have a substantially uh reduced role in its day-to-day governance.

Conor

Interesting. Well, that's basically everything I need well I needed to know from you. I mean, I'll share my thoughts too.

Bryce

So I mean and and as as to why I'm not going to to other platforms.

Conor

Um Yeah, Mastodon is the obviously the big one that most folks are going to.

Bryce

T Twitter is a community space, and I'm not um I'm not gonna let some crazy rich guy just come and like take over a community space and kick us all out. So I I don't plan on leaving.

Conor

Yeah, I mean, for me personally, I have not left either, not said anything about leaving. That's mainly cuz well, that's mainly twofold. One is laziness. I have like seven Twitter accounts. Uh most of them I could drop, but like I would have to replicate the podcast one, my personal one, and my uh meetup one. Anyway, so like it's just gonna be a lot of work. But two, I also think that this federated model, like email work because it started as federated, but trying to take a website like Twitter, like I already know a bunch of folks that aren't on Twitter because they just think it's silly. Like it's like Facebook except only status updates, which is like not an inaccurate description of what this website is. And uh to try and convince non-tech folks, like, oh yeah, it's like just a federated version of Twitter. And it's like, well, which one do I join? It's like, oh, it's just like email. You know, you just anyways it I just think it's a odd model. Yeah.

Bryce

And um and I just think Mastodon is like is like a model of Twitter that makes sense solely for like for tech people.

Conor

Yeah. And that's the thing, is like 80%, 90% of the people I follow uh are alt tech, but like there are some people like runners and people outside that world that like have hundreds of thousands of followers on Twitter.

Bryce

Like I don't think that they're gonna be percent of the people that I follow on Twitter are tech, and like 50% are planes. And and and I I don't just mean like aviation people, I mean it's just like I just follow a lot of planes.

Conor

Yeah. And it it should Bryce alluded to the fact that Elon's evil. Uh we both agree, but I'll just say for the record, uh, you know, I'm sure we're I okay, Evil may Evil may be wrong.

Bryce

It's not so much that I think that he's evil, it's that it's it's that I it's that I think that he he's he's he's a very sick man. I think he needs help.

Conor

Yes.

Bryce

Uh you know, I I don't know I don't know what happened to him in his I don't know what trauma happened to him, but um he's clear he's clearly not a happy person.

Conor

He's not I don't think evil is that far off. Like he's I used to be in the beginning a huge Elon Musk fan.

Bryce

Because evil has purpose. Evil has like like clear goals and plans. He's just chaos. There's no agenda there's no agenda here. He just wants he just wants to not with Twitter specifically, but he does have agendas. No, no, no. He just wants people to think he's cool. That's all.

Conor

Yeah, that I mean that is his ultimate goal. He is a narcissist and he wants people to like him. Yeah.

Bryce

Um, but like I mean, like he's taking he keeps taking polls that are like see, I I I promised I wasn't.

Conor

Do you like me? Yes.

Bryce

This is the reason that I'm not tweeting about Elon. And that I'm and that I like this is the one time I'm gonna talk about it, and that's gonna be it. And and the reason is that like I don't want to spend all of my time thinking about and being angry at ridiculous at Elon Musk. Because you know what? That's exact he he wants all of your attention, and you're giving him your attention. Like, I don't care about him.

Conor

I think the thing is what he wants is like positive attention.

Bryce

No, he just wants attention. He loves to be hated. He loves to be hated.

Conor

I but I think he loves to be hated as long as he has his Elon stands, but like I think a large number of these people that think he's the real life Iron Man are starting to realize like he was just on some Twitter space where someone asked him, like, he mentioned the stack and how it's like a crazy stack. And then someone was like, all right, like explain the stack. And he was just like, What? Who are you? And then and then he's just like, no, just like explain the stack, and he's like, Oh, so you're a jackass.

Bryce

There was also one where somebody explained how like internet ad the internet ad market works to him, how like advertisers want to be able to micro to target like very focused audiences, and Elon was just like, can somebody mute this guy because he doesn't know what he's talking about?

Conor

But um uh oh god, we're we're well no, so I what I was gonna say was that like read his biography by Ashley Vance, and that was like so. I started off liking for those that are listening to this, being like, you don't understand him, blah blah blah. I used to love Elon. Like, I used to think, my god, oh making the world a better place.

Bryce

Maybe the end of our friendship because used to be.

Conor

Listen, let me get to the end of the story. I mean, the guy was putting electric cars everywhere, blah, blah, blah. I didn't understand that he stole that company from two guys and reinvented the story and that he's been reinventing every story, blah, blah, blah. He's going to Mars, etc. And then I read the book, and there's this one small part in the book where his executive assistant, who has been working with him, I think, for a decade or two decades at that point, sees all these engineers around him getting paid a lot and asks for a raise and says, you know, the companies are doing well. I feel like I've provided a lot of value. And like, if you read the book, basically they paint this person as like the only person that makes Elon like uh manageable to work with, because every high-level executive that ever wants to go talk to Elon would go through her first and be like, is it a good hour of the day? Like, you know, it needs to be a Monday at 2 p.m. And he had to have his streddies in the morning, otherwise, he's in a bad mood, and you shouldn't go talk to him. Otherwise, he might just fire you on the spot for no reason. So, like, this person, this woman, was apparently like a godsend. Elon's response, take a vacation for two weeks, and I'll let you know afterwards. She took a vacation, came back, and he fired her. And apparently there was a couple of high-ranking executives that like left the company uh because they were so upset that like Elon had. Anyways, this is the kind of person that like his executive assistant works for him for decades, and she asked for a raise, and he fired. Anyways, the dude is is yeah, not nice.

Bryce

I I have um, you know, w we have some colleagues at NVIDIA that that worked at um at they're in this Elon company is one of one of um the other principal architects that I uh work with. I was at SpaceX for a while. Um and um and he's a super nice guy. Um and the guy that worked at SpaceX. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a he's a he's he's one of the the the the kindest and and and friendliest people um that I know at NVIDIA. Um and um sometimes sometimes he's uh he's told me stories. And I just I I feel so bad because he's such a nice guy and it must have been such a hostile environment. And he like tells the story and he tells it in a way that um I mean I think he enjoyed his time there, but um but boy does it sound brutal. And then like I I know some other people who who have been who have spent some short time there and and there's a few just absolutely you know crazy stuff. Like like Elon sending out email, like getting an email in the morning that like, hey, at the end of the day you need to send all the cra But like the thing is like these stories sound tame now compared to you know what we're now seeing, but like Elon sending emails to all uh to all the staff, like, hey, at the end of the day you need to send me a report of what you've done today, and then like just firing random people based on not like in their reports. Or what I heard this one story once about um some VPs were having a meeting with Elon trying to explain to him that this thing that he thought was gonna be ready next week was like not gonna be ready for months. And eventually everybody's, you know, um trying to explain it to him in like gentle terms, and then eventually one VP's like just like explicitly just comes out and just says like Elon like it's not gonna be ready. And he's like, Okay, well I want everybody, I want all the engineers to come into the office tomorrow morning at 8 a.m. so we can sort this out. And tomorrow morning at 8 a.m. is a Saturday. And so everybody comes in at 8 a.m. Of course, because they're terrified. Because the man rules through the pier. And then it's like it's 8 15, it's 8 20, it's 8 30. Finally, at like 9 20, Elon and some some of Elon's kids like come into the office or factory, I don't remember which company this was at, um, and somebody's like, hey, Elon, all the engineers are here, they're waiting for you to do whatever you're gonna do. And he's like, Oh, oh yeah, I forgot about that. Send them all home. It's like this man just ruined everybody's Saturday morning. Yeah. You know, it it it's it's um uh there have been so so you and I work at NVIDIA, and and uh we have uh a CEO who's also well known in in uh Whoa, I was like, what are you about to say?

Conor

You're about to compare him to our CEO's amazing.

Bryce

No, no, no, no, I that that that's what I'm getting at. Um there have been you know J J Jensen, uh who's uh the NVIDIA CEO, um well-known figure in Silicon Valley. And um over the years there have been some stories that have come out that have said, oh, you know, J Jensen's not not nice to people, which is absolutely untrue. Um uh you know, Jensen has Jens Jensen sets, you know, high goals and yes, he pushes us to to deliver, but out of my entire time in tech, I've never seen a a CEO who has um cared as deeply about his employees as Jensen does, and who has done as much to um uh defend and protect his employees, especially during during hard times. Um and you know, I think he he's got some this he he's acquired this reputation of being, you know uh I don't know, I don't want to say an asshole, but I think that there's some people who believe that about him, which is just not true. And I I have seen some people compare him to to Elon and and I think that that's completely untrue because the the the main difference is you know, Elon sets ambitious goals and and pushes people to deliver, and and so does Jensen. But the difference is that Elon cares 0% about his employees, whereas Jensen cares deeply about his employees.

Conor

Yeah, and not not just like the engineers or the hardware architects, like every single employee that works at NVIDIA, like from all the way, I don't want to say down to whatever, but just like if you work at NVIDIA, you are treated just as equally. And um like yeah, I didn't know that upon joining NVIDIA, and then when the pandemic hit and offices closed, like I d I'm not sure. I don't w I don't know what's public, so I'm not gonna say anything, but like the steps that he took to make sure that everyone was taken care of was like, I was like, wow, this is some guy that clearly treats his company like a family.

Bryce

Yeah, and and and or look at the the steps that were taken to care for NVIDIA employees in Ukraine and in Russia. Um I think NVIDIA is is unique in tech companies in the degree to which um we ensured that our employees in in Ukraine and Russia were were taken care of and had options to get out of the the country. Um uh I I uh we have one employee on our team who started uh right before the the war, who who um uh lived who was a Russian citizen, lived in Russia, and you know, Nvidia um got him out of the country, um, got him, you know, temporary housing, um you know, increased his his his his uh uh compensation to to to make sure that that he had the the the the resources to be able to um to leave and and just like really like went above and beyond to take care of this guy. And like, you know, I like I think at one point I my understanding is that we were chartering planes to fly from Russia to Armenia. Um we we just like w when when the commercial airlines had shut down, we were just like, alright, well we'll just we'll just hire some planes. Um and um you know it it's it's it's stuff like that. Um that that I really that um makes me really grateful. And then, you know, you look at all these other tech companies that are doing layoffs right now. Um and uh I'm I'm I can almost assure you that won't happen at NVIDIA. Um we I think there's only been layoffs once in NVIDIA's history, and it's something that I that Jensen really hates doing. I think it was that one time that we did it. His experience with it was so negative that he he uh never wants to do it again. Um and typically during top periods of financial downturns, Jensen goes out of his way to make sure that everybody gets, you know, a bonus, or like during the the the pandemic, we were um we were all given a bit of a bonus and and and a bit of financial assistance just to make like life easier for everybody. Um and you know that that's like what real leadership does. Um you know, like it is true I think that that Jensen can be um uh uh uh tough on like the executive BPs that report to him. Um but there's a difference between being uh tough on like your executive BPs versus being like awful to your like line engineers. Um and like that's what Elon is, is he's just awful to he punches down, you know, and that's that's really that's really not acceptable. Um and you know, I think the the culture of a company um really does come from its leadership and NVIDIA I think has a great culture. Um and and especially one of the things that makes NVIDIA so great um is that the the the management is really great and supportive for the most part. There's there I'm sure there's exceptions to this as there are as at any company. But um my experience at NVIDIA has generally been the higher I've gone in the management org, the almost the better the better it gets. Um uh and and um there's there's a ton of inflexibility for employees. Um you know, I there's been multiple times at NVIDIA where I've seen somebody who wasn't unhappy in their role, who their their management was very accommodating and supportive and sort of helped to move them to to a better role. NVIDIA doesn't have this, you know, this culture of these annual performance reviews where um it's a huge, big, stressful thing and where everybody all the employees review each other. It's just it it we really do take care of people and and I I think especially in a in in tough times that that really shows. Like I I can't think of a better company to be working at um uh during uh uh the the pan dur during like this period um and during the pandemic than NVIDIA.

Conor

One final thing I'll add to wrap up this long Twitter Elon and somehow Jensen got wrapped into it. Uh I retweeted a very wholesome video. Have you seen this video that floated around on Twitter of Jensen that I actually don't know where he was. I want to say he was in Santa Clara near HQ, but he was walking around somewhere, and these two Asian girls were doing karaoke in some what looked like some kind of mall, and he they were live streaming it, and then he walks around in the background, and I'm not sure if they noticed or someone in their like Twitch trap um chat stream pointed out that Jensen was behind them. So then like uh they're looking at the chat and then say Jensen and then they spin around and see him, and then his eyes sort of light up, and then he wanders over. Long story short, ends up like requesting a bunch of songs because they ask him, like, do you want to or I can't remember if he asked, Can you sing something for me? Or he they offer to, and I can't remember, I think it was he asked for a bunch of Lady Gaga songs. Uh, and it's the most wholesome thing. Anyways, they proceed to sing a duet of some song, and he stands in the background just sort of like smiling and bobbing his head. It's the most wholesome, wholesome thing I've ever seen of any CEO ever. And uh, anyways, I'll find that video that I retweeted, put it in the links, and uh point is Elon sucks. We're I think both, I mean, I got a little concerned the first time I really saw a red flag because there's been a ton of things that people are talking about, the website's becoming more hostile. Honestly, in my little tech sphere, I haven't noticed much. There's been a couple small bugs that I've seen. Nothing that's like looks like the website's going down, but when they said that they were gonna start blocking linking to other social platforms.

Bryce

But but I I was not concerned about that because it was obvious that that was gonna be reversed.

Conor

Yeah, which they did revert, yeah. But like that was the first time I was like it's first of all, the irony of Mr. Free Speech. Uh, but like we don't need to talk about that. But then I was like, if this is if this actually sticks, like this is the first thing that I've seen where I'm like, well, maybe this is actually the beginning of the end.

Bryce

Yeah, but the the my see my my philosophy is I just I'm I I strongly believe that none of it's gonna stick. It is unfortunate that Elon is doing his learning in public like this. Like, it it's unfortunate that that like that this is how he's gonna have to learn is by like, you know, just trashing the site for some period of time. And it is, you know, we we we we also we also haven't talked about we haven't really talked about like the human impact of um uh of Elon being at Twitter. It is um it is completely inexcusable. It is it is criminal uh uh what he has done to the employees of Twitter and just the arbitrary nature with which people's you know have been fired or or like forced to resign. Um like you know, like I do think that that Twitter will be fine. I think in in spite of Elon, and I think that it'll be fine because of all the great engineering and and all the great not just engineering but all but all the great work that the the the people who have built Twitter have done over the years, and that that's why I believe that it will be fine, because it's a great platform, and I don't think that one asshole can overdo it, uh can can um undo it uh you know overnight or even you know over the the period of a few months. But um you know, what what can't be fixed is the the uh the trauma and the uh uh the uncertainty um that that's been unleashed in these people's lives. Um uh you know, that's that's really just completely inexcusable. It's like like s say whatever you want uh about like Elon's, you know, uh management of like the the technical aspects of things. Um I almost to some degree don't care about you know whether SpaceX or Tesla or Twitter are successful as companies because of how poorly he treats his people. Like ultimately companies are just collections of people, and it doesn't it doesn't matter if you build great things if you you do it by um you know uh being awful to people along the way. Um you know I don't I don't I don't want to make drastic comparisons. Um so I'm not and I'm not going to. But I'll just I'll just I'll just say that um uh you know, history has shown on multiple occasions that the ends don't justify the means. It doesn't it doesn't matter um if if you've made great scientific a achievements if you've done it at the cost of you know human suffering. Um and and I and I think that that's what that's exactly what he's done. And I mean you know it it's i i it's it's a little bit drastic to say that because obviously people you know um if if you're an engineer that works at the Tesla or SpaceX and and Elon's you know really an ask you you're still like a an engineer in a in in a uh you know in a pretty cushy job in a first world country um you know getting paid a decent amount you know you're not you know starving in some other part of the world you're still fortunate but people don't shouldn't be treated like that.

Conor

Yeah. I am sure behind the scenes uh there are a ton of labor lawyers involved with folks that were let go because literally like and not only were they let go in a demonstrably like terrible way without cause it seemed but they did it like publicly like on like there's a track record of like oh you said something all right you're fired yeah um and uh like literally I would see those tweets and then like someone replying like all right easiest labor like lawyer case in history because like it's literally proof of like wrongful termination and without cause.

Bryce

Yeah.

Conor

So whether or not there's gonna be some class action or something, you know, it's maybe not but I'm I'm sure that there are people working with lawyers right now to rectify to the amount that it can be rectified the way that people were let go and treated.

Bryce

Yeah. And I mean I you know this is supposed to be our holiday episode so I guess you know Yeah I was gonna say what we can say is you know uh uh both you and I um can be very grateful for the the the company that we're working in and the management that we have and I think uh you know uh everybody in tech sh should maybe take some time to reflect upon their situation right now. Um you know having now seen what has happened at Twitter um and the past few months the the um you know with with the the the pullback in tech and a lot of companies um uh announcing austerity measures and layoffs and and and things like that. Um I think this is this is now a good time for us all to reflect upon how fortunate we are um uh in and perhaps some of us um uh don't haven't felt so fortunate in the past in the the good times the boom times um because maybe they weren't in a perfect situation or setup but maybe now you come to realize that you know what I've actually got it pretty good um you know all things considered um and uh and I I I hope that uh many of our listeners uh uh feel that way.

Conor

Yeah way to end on a at least way to end this chapter on a positive note.

Bryce

Yeah.

Conor

Alright should I should we talk should we talk about where's my where's my list of things? We've gotten through we've gotten through uh yeah kind of updates. Do you want to do the thing that I DM'd you about on Twitter about uh that tweet or do you want to do the topic you DM'd me about? Um you don't remember probably what I DM'd you about because it was a week ago it was about the tweet about language.

Bryce

That's a very no I I don't want to do that today um because um emotionally Is the compiler diagnostics a happy topic? Yes um well it is actually interesting because uh you know as you know I work on the inclusive terminology uh stuff for insights and now for ISO and and there there's actually there's been some drama in recent weeks about um Stanford's inclusive terminology um uh guide that went out and that's been somewhat ridiculed on the internet for I think some people have suggested that it goes too far. I you know it it I actually haven't been able to get a copy of it because they made it private now. They made it so that only Stanford uh uh employees and students can view it was where it was previously public accessible. Which kind of I I should have downloaded it as soon as I uh saw the link I'm sure we could find it but yeah I'm I'm sure I could I I would like to be able to send it to the actually here let's crowdsource it. If you're a listener that has that goes to Stanford could you please send Bryce Yeah I I I I legitimately would like to have a copy of it so that I can send it around to the um the Insights inclusive terminology committee whenever we see a new one of those we'd like to look at it to get um uh a feedback on it um but you know what I guarantee you we have a Stanford listener so one of the anyways what one of the so one of the things I've been working on the past uh you know year or two has been the inclusive terminology guidelines for insights but now we're developing a standard for um inclusive terminology um and um I I think it's it's a bit different than any other inclusive terminology document out there because a lot of the inclusive terminology documents are a list of things it's like hey don't use this term use this term instead um and we do have a a list like that in our document but our our guidelines and our standard um both have a uh uh a substantial front matter that talks about like the process like not just like you know you um uh give a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to to fish um and you know he'll eat for the rest of his life and that's sort of the philosophy here which is we could give you a list of terms to avoid right now but this is an evolving field and those terms you know um uh what's acceptable what's uh problematic is going to evolve over time as culture shifts and we also you know we're not gonna we're not perfect we're not gonna be able to put everything into that list and so it's far better for us to teach you the process by which you should evaluate whether um uh your your terminology is inclusive and I think that's really the valuable and unique thing that our that our standard um uh uh will do um and right now we're just developing the um we're really starting to flesh out what those processes are going to look like and really starting to think about it. You know like like one of the one of the interesting questions is well how do you determine you know obviously if you're going to um uh try to determine whether your language is inclusive for you know whatever your content is for your programming language or for your open source project um you know once you've identified a term that might be problematic that might be non-inclusive um well how do you make that judgment um and so one of the things we're trying to figure out is how do we define like the audience we don't want to say like I I don't want to talk about things in terms of stakeholders because that might suggest that people who are who don't have a stake in the project um uh shouldn't have input which I don't think is true um uh but you you need some way to um make it clear that if there's a group of people that that that that take some some um uh that finds your term that find some term offensive um even if they're maybe not your intended audience for your particular you know content um their opinions are still something that's that's valid and uh we're trying to come up with a way to to define the process by which um organizations and communities can um uh work to to reach consensus on whether or not a term should be avoided. Um and I think it's you know obviously it's a very difficult thing to define um but um I'm I'm very hopeful that it'll be a a useful thing. Um and I you know I I I as as somebody who who edits one of these documents I I I I certainly hear a lot of feedback that some of the things that we've put in maybe have gone a step too far. Like I I I hear the feedback that like oh you can't like it I I I I understand people saying it's ridiculous to say that we shouldn't use the term user because it might be offensive to those with a um uh substance um abuse um uh problems um you know some people may say oh well that goes a step too far like you're basically saying we can't use any word um but I've never heard that one before I no I I've never heard that one before and that's one of the reasons why I'm interested in looking at the Stanford document is because I I always like to to learn about new terms that I've I've never never previously heard were problematic. I I guess here's my perspective. When you first tell me that user is a is a term with negative connotations um yeah my gut reaction too was like okay that's a step too far but um I I've been the editor for this inclusive terminology document for two to three years and the thing I've learned is I I never want to be the one making decisions based on my subjective experience um because that's like the entire root of the problem here is like it doesn't matter what I think. What I've trained myself to do is to always ask the question like okay is there evidence that this is actually a problem to some to some community like it doesn't matter like what I think doesn't matter. What what what what matters is whether this is problematic to some community. And so like my first gut reaction is always to do research.

Conor

Can we talk about the the tweet now seeing as you've spent this much time now talking about uh so so I here let me I had it up on a different screen yeah so this was on December 14th in the midst of uh our high hiatus in between recording and so the part of the reason is that of of the content of the tweet but also it's people that we know so um the person that sent this tweet out I hope they don't mind that we're talking about it is Timur um who has given uh one of the keynotes at the most recent cpp con. I think he's like said I know he's giving a keynote at an upcoming conference but I'm not sure it's been announced yet. So it's another C conference though. Anyways uh he tweeted uh when reading programming books or articles I often see phrases like war stories, quote unquote or being quote in the trenches, end quote, referring to situations in software development. Please please stop using these phrases in this context. And then a couple different people um the two main notable ones that I know quite well are Barry Revson and uh Kate Gregory. Barry I won't read his whole tweet but basically said you know please stop telling people what they're allowed to say and then Kate responded saying you know we're not uh what did Kate the gist of what Kate said was like you know it's important to choose words carefully we're not trying to you know anyways there was a back and forth and uh sort of similar to what you said about user my initial thought was like isn't that just sort of like a figure of speech but then my next thought is like I never really reach for those phrases and they're not that important to me. So like if someone said hey this is uh affects you know you know I used to fight in some war you know I I would be like yeah okay it's it it decreases any value in my life to like remove those phrases from what I'm able to reach for. But then at the same time like I sort of anyway so I I was just more interested you spent a lot more time thinking about this stuff with your experiences like what was your reaction when you saw this I I won't tell you my reaction because my reaction is irrelevant.

Bryce

What I will tell you is is my process um and the process that we've used in the development of our guidelines. And it will and and first I'll I'll give you another example of this actually came up in the last discussion or um on the Insights and crucial terminology committee which is somebody pointed out that um the some weather terminology like cold front um where does front come from in that well it turns out that the etymology of like cold front it actually comes from uh from from war from talking about like front lines in a war. And we never we never actually think about that connotation. But somebody was was putting it up and was pointing out like well is that you know is that um problematic. But so my process, you know what I would do is I would go and start to do some research. And I would go to see you know I I would I would first want to go and find out okay what are the advocacy organizations for um uh the impacted communities and so in this case that's gonna probably be organizations that advocate for or support um uh veterans but also specifically um veterans who are suffering from PTSD um because that's probably the people that are most likely to be impacted from this um but uh but also it it may be um uh there's other groups that may be applicable too for example how about organizations that advocate for um refugees from uh uh areas affected by war um you know uh more topically um uh maybe organizations that advocate for Ukrainian refugees or the Syrian refugees um uh two of the more recent uh uh conflicts and so I would want to go and find a list of you know um organizations like this make sure that there are you know big notable ones that that um are are sort of authorities on on these issues and I'd want to see whether they have any um whether they've taken a stance on on on things like this. You know it if you look at organizations um for the uh uh the the the deaf and blind community um that they they have taken uh stance on how how you should talk about um uh the deaf and blind community and that there are documents in their website. And so so I would I would go to these and all those organizations I listed and I would I would make a list of those organizations. I would go to their websites. I would maybe even go and try to contact their um their PR people and ask if there's a stance on this. And I would also go and look for um articles um uh you know um blog posts uh uh articles on online news venues just like any anything on the internet um uh talking about um these particular terms um and I would I would try to see like how much how much evidence is there that this is like an existing issue um that that this is something that that is a discussion that that not just one person has brought up to me because a lot of people email us on the inclusive uh terminology committee or email me and ask hey well you know I I I was thinking about this term and maybe it's problematic. My first reaction is of course well um uh you know it it could be but I really need to see evidence that that the communities that would be impacted um are are are talking about this um and if there's if there's really an absence of um of discussion um uh on the topic then that to me is a is a signal that um i it it's it's probably not yet become best practice to avoid that term it's something that we should certainly watch and be aware of but it it's probably not um established that we have consensus that that's something that we should avoid. But of course the other thing that I I can do is I can you know try to talk to people in the impacted community. You know maybe maybe try to see if there's somebody in my network who is um you know uh a veteran or or a veteran suffering from PTSD who I could just have a chat with and ask them like like hey what's what's your take on this and I've I've done that in the past for for of um a couple different groups um or and for a couple different topics um just just to just sort of see like hey like do you have more information about this like do you do or like do you know of um advocacy organizations or or authors or thought leaders in in your community who might you know have more thoughts on this um because I don't want to be the one making decisions um uh uh about these things I want to I want to consult and get input and and determine what what the best practice is but if I do find that there's evidence that um that this is a controversial topic or maybe not even controversial if I find that there's evidence that people are talking about this or or are are raising the concern that this may be um uh problematic if I find you know two or three blog articles or a couple different you know uh uh threads on like various social media platforms that that to me is probably a sign a strong enough signal that the term should be avoided if if there is some evidence that there is a controversy uh or from multiple different authors um from multiple different people um uh uh uh raising raising a concern that's probably sufficient for me to say okay this is this is something that um people are talking about that that may be controversial and thus we should avoid it.

Conor

Yeah it's a great point I think it's you said you know you don't want to be the one that makes a decision but it you missed the what I think is the more important point of that statement which you said earlier which is that based on your experience which is yeah immediately when you say that it makes me think well sure I have some reaction to some phrase or figure speech or word and then my initial thought is like is is that a big deal? Like doesn't seem like it but like says the guy who has never been you know even close to war and it's like I'm not I'm not the affected uh demographic that is potentially going to have an issue with this. And so it's like it's like why would you ask me or why would I be involved in the decision making process go ask the people that would actually like because I'm sure there's a ton of things like that where you you hear communities that you are not a part of being upset about something and you're scratching your head going like why do they care about that? But it's like you don't have the experience that that group of people has lived to know that like why it's an issue and your point of going out and seeking like you know advice or uh you know to to learn from that community is really what people should be doing.

Bryce

I I will I will read to you from the the draft of the of uh two key paragraphs from the uh inclusive terminology standard that that we are developing um uh okay so the first paragraph is uh some people experience negative connotations with a term which can offend alienate or exclude them negative connotations are subjective a term can have different meanings to different people based on their experiences and identities some terms are offensive and slash or promote bias or stereotypes regarding gender age ability nationality ethnicity socioeconomic status sexual orientation etc terms with negative connotations shall be identified and replaced with terms that do not have negative connotations or otherwise run. So so I I think the when we were drafting this standard one thing that was very important to me is that we we we talk about subjectivity and in my my presentation that I sometimes give about about the standard um that's one of the key points that I try to drive home is that it it's this is inclusive terminology is not an objective search for a right answer. Because it's it's just inherently not objective. If somebody tells you that they are experiencing negative connotations with the term then it is a fact that they are experiencing that. You can't be like oh well you shouldn't feel that way or like oh oh I think you're lying. So like like if somebody says that they're offended by a term that is evidence that the term is offensive to some person. Like that this is the thing that people just don't seem to understand.

Conor

It's like let me invalidate the way you feel because I don't feel the same way.

Bryce

Exactly exactly and and so like the it's as simple as that. But it it's hard for people to understand that because um typically in society we search for objective fruits and we we um uh we often want to have a lot And and um uh uh almost scientific uh discussion uh of things and and then reach some objective truth um based upon uh um uh facts. Um uh and uh that's not what this is. Um uh that there is no objective truth defined. Inclusive terminology is about feelings. It's about people's feelings.

Conor

And people's lived experiences.

Bryce

Exactly. Um and and that this is really hard for people to grasp, and it's especially really hard for the tech industry to grasp because so often um what we care about is the objective truth of something.

Conor

Yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm sure there's some people listening to what you just said, and they're like, well, what's the point of even talking about this then? You know, like if it's all just subjective and you know there's no real way to find a right answer, you know, why can't we just move on to developing the next C26 standard? And, you know, it's yeah, but it's important.

Bryce

I mean, I I I will say the the reason that we're developing an inclusive terminology standard is because we've seen a great demand for it. We developed uh uh at at the Inside Standards Organization, we developed inclusive terminology guidelines internally for us to use in the development of our standards. And almost immediately a lot of our member organizations were like, ooh, this looks really useful to us. We're trying to figure out how to do this within our within our company, like not just for standards, but just like for all the things we're doing. Like, can we use this? How should we use this? And we're like, well, no, no, no, no, no, this is that's not like what this was intended for. Um, but you know, maybe we can go develop a standard for that purpose. So there is, I think, great demand in the industry for um uh uh for best practices and processes for how to do that. And the reason is that um every no nobody wants to exclude people um uh if they can help it. And and I I think there's a there's a recognization by most organizations um at an organizational level that that this is the right thing to do and that this is the the way to go. Um and um and you know, I think that five to ten years from now this would just be a uh an accepted best practice across the industry. And it and it costs us it costs us very little to um uh uh to pick a different language. And you know, w one one of the early points that was made during this process within Insights um was, you know, some somebody one one of my my my colleagues at Apple who who unfortunately no longer is involved in um uh developing the standard um uh because he's uh uh started uh the process of retirement. Um but uh he said something in the effect of you know when we write standards or when we write technical documents, our goal is to be concise and precise and unambiguous in in what we're stating. That if if you if your if your goal is to be, you know, is that sort of that search for objective truth, um uh uh then you should want your writing and your you know, APIs and your you know any any sort of content that uh is going to be consumed by people or even by machines, um you'd want it to be unambiguous and and and and precise and clear. And so even if you don't agree that you know, this term is offensive, like isn't merely the fact that there are multiple meanings to it, but there's an interpretation that you didn't intend, like you should want to avoid that for no if if for no other reason than to to make it less ambiguous. Um like you should want it to be clear and and and simple and and have just one meaning.

Conor

That's a good point. So while we've been talking about all this, I figured out the title for our holiday special episode. It's gonna be called Holiday Special, Trees Travel, Twitter, and Terminology. We're gonna close this Christmas special episode out. Holiday special. Say Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, happy all the religious and non-religious holidays. Anything you want to say to close this episode out, Bryce?

Bryce

I would just say happy holidays to everybody. And uh thank you all for uh for listening to this podcast. Um it it uh it consistently surprises me that people find it so interesting to listen to us chatting.

Conor

Um and uh chaos with sprinkles of information.

Bryce

Yeah. Um and it it uh it really warms my heart whenever I run into somebody at a conference or an event and they say, Oh, they listen to the podcast, and and listening to the podcast makes them feel like they're um you know, in the room with us and they're they're you know one of our friends and like they know what's going on in our lives. And and that that that's exactly I think what we're what we're going for. Um and um and I hope that you feel that way, because that's that's what I want you to feel. It's like this is like um you know, if you're if you're a listener, then you're our friend too. Um and so thank you, friend, for for listening to us, for tolerating us.

Conor

And and maybe 2023, you know, we've got the Slovenia trip on the books, and maybe also we gotta start thinking about merch. Stickers, we can start with stickers.

Bryce

We there is a the C ⁇ committee meeting in um uh in Varna, Bulgaria. Um so that is the general, you know, the region of the world to do that road trip. And my girlfriend has a lot of um Hertz points, so we could we could rent the car. We could rent the car. I don't I don't I don't know whether Hertz operates in Slovenia, um, but they they do operate in uh uh the Netherlands. Um uh although as we learned the uh the Netherlands very strict on uh their speed limits. Um may have may have acquired a few tickets there. Anyways. Um but yeah, I'm stay tuned.

Conor

We might have some stickers to give away at some conferences in 2023. So yeah.

Bryce

I mean uh what's what's our what's our what's our c well wait, why are we giving them away? Why aren't we giving them away?

Conor

Uh I mean what, we're gonna charge people for them? Um yeah, maybe First of all, I absolutely disdain cash. So the only way we would be selling these stickers would be with some kind of what do they call those things that you attach to a cell phone and then you swipe the credit cards on? Stripe the cards.

Bryce

Yeah, I I have I have one that I use for um for for include, but maybe we could uh maybe we could sell some some mer we could like create like an online store and sell some merch or sell some stickers. But it's true. And then we could we could give the money to some, you know, some worthy claw.

Conor

This is true. I mean we could either we could do one of two things. We could create the store and then just like um I know a couple people that have done that, and then they just do it right at cost, so like there's actually no profit and it's just it goes directly into the product, or we could do it at some margin and then and then we choose some organization to to give the money to.

Bryce

Yeah, maybe maybe we could maybe we could have an ADSP uh uh scholarship to allow somebody to go attend some uh Well, you really you really think there's gonna be a lot of stickers being bought, my guy. Uh yeah, yeah, I guess I I think there'll be a lot. I mean, I think if if it's for a good cause, there it could be.

Conor

I mean, uh we've only got uh I don't know how many views or downloads we've had in top in total, but I think it's it's you know like 300,000, 400,000 levels. So that's across a hundred episodes. I mean, everyone would need to buy a lot of stickers in order. Or we'd need to be charging uh a pretty penny, $20 per sticker. Yeah, yeah.

Bryce

T-shirts. We can do t-shirts. The the margins on t-shirts are like always amaze me. Like uh anytime I go to like buy a uh like a branded t-shirt, um uh, you know, they're always like 30 or 40 bucks, and it's like, you know, the m they gotta be killing it in those.

Conor

Stay tuned, folks. We will look into a merch store and merch 2023.

Bryce

Tell us what merch you want. Like shirts with pictures of Bryce's dog.

Conor

Um I just figured it would be one thing and it would be the logo.

Bryce

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's gonna be other things that they're gonna want. There's gonna be other things that you're gonna do.

Conor

You realize though, I'm doing all the work. You're not gonna. No, no, no.

Bryce

I I I because I actually run the the the US um shop for include. Um I although I forget what platform it's on. But like I actually this is like one thing that like I actually know how to do and can and can do.

Conor

Oh, perfect. Alright, well then we can get as creative as because I was thinking it's gonna be one type of thing, that logo, and that goes on either a mug or a t-shirt or a hoodie. No, no, no.

Bryce

I it if we can uh uh we we can we can do some.

Conor

I would say actually a hoodie that has the color of our logo, which is like a deep maroon with the little white letters is actually would be a pretty nice uh because we don't have like a crazy colored logo like some podcasts. Um anyways, happy holidays. We're wrapping up this holiday special episode. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed, and we hope you have a very, very happy holidays.