

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          2022,   I   think,   will   sort   of   be   remembered,   at   least   like   in   the   systems   programming   languages   community   and   the   C   community.   2022   is   like   Star   Wars   episode   4,   a   new   hope.   The   C   successor   languages.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:26</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   111,   recorded   on   January   4th,   2023.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   talk   about   C23   Ranges,   our   2022   retro,   and   the   future   of   C.   Okay,   actually,   we   will   start   the   podcast   now.   I   was   gonna   start   off   talking   about   something   we   need   to   talk   about,   which   you&#39;re   probably   aware   of,   but   before   we   just   hit   the   record   button,   uh,   we   were   talking   about   ranges.   And   so   I   will   say,   ranges,   oh,   the   glorious   they&#39;re   glorious.   C   23   ranges,   GCC   13,   which   is   GCC   trunk   as   of   you   know   this   recording   today,   I&#39;m   sure   GCC   13   will   officially,   when   it   gets   released,   get   uploaded   to   Gobolt   or   Compiler   Explore,   uh,   has   implemented   every   single   range   adapter   in   factory.   The   only   thing   they   haven&#39;t,   and   I   thought   Microsoft   was   leading   the   charge   uh   in   terms   of   implementing   ranges.   So   I   was   tracking   their   progress   and   issues,   and   they   have,   I   don&#39;t   know,   above   50%,   I   think,   of   the   range   adapters   implemented.   And   then   I   think   I   was   just   bored   one   day.   Or   no,   actually,   this   is   what   happened.   There&#39;s   no   support   for   the   format   library   with   MSVC   on   Compiler   Explorer.   And   so   I   logged   a   bug,   but   then   the   compiler   explorer   folks   said   that   because   of   MSVC   issues,   it&#39;s   not   always   possible   to   get   libraries   working   there,   which   sure   is   fair   enough.   So   then   I   went   and   downloaded   the   most   recent   community   edition   of   Visual   Studio   and   tried   to,   because   I   want   to   use   Victor&#39;s   format   library   until   we   have   C23   format   print.   And   then   when   I   used   uh   the   community   edition,   I   used   Nuget   to   fetch,   I   don&#39;t   know,   whatever   the   most   recent   um   format   library   is,   which   is   like   7.0   something.   Yeah.   And   that&#39;s   broken   with   chunk   by.   So   for   whatever   reason,   there&#39;s   some   bug   that   the   C23   std   views   chunk   buy   doesn&#39;t   work   with   the   lib   format   library.   So   compiler   explorer   doesn&#39;t   support   the   format   library.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:38</time>
      <p>
          You   mean   I&#39;m   confused.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>2:39</time>
      <p>
          Like   like   you&#39;re   trying   to   I&#39;m   trying   to   just   uh   basically   use   the   fumped   colon-colon   print   and   the   ranges   header.   So   they   have   basic   C23   comes   with   the   ability   to   print   a   range   uh   and   containers   and   stuff   like   that.   Uh   but   just   very   necessary   if   you   want   to   basically   create   a   little   gobble   snippet   um   that   prints   out   some   code   using   some   C20   or   23   ranges.   So   Compiler   Explorer   with   MSVC   doesn&#39;t   support   the   lib   format   library.   And   Visual   Studio   2022   Community   Edition   has   some   bug   either   in   the   format   library   or   the   ranges,   uh   C23   ranges   uh   chunk   by   implementation   that   they   are   not   compatible.   And   so   I   was   I   was   about   to   say   I   got   bored,   so   that&#39;s   why   I   checked   GCC.   But   what   I   realized   is   like   I   can   just   go   create   the   equivalent   code   using   range   v3   and   libformat   because   I   know   libformat   works   with   GCC.   But   then   when   I   was   doing   that,   I   said,   I&#39;ll   just   check   to   see   what   they&#39;ve   implemented   of   C23   ranges.   And   it   turns   out   they&#39;ve   implemented   everything,   which   is   just   so   amazing.   So   amazing.   Uh   chunk   by.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:46</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   saw   Eric   Eric   retweeted   something   that   you   sent   about   this,   and   Eric   said   that   that   this   is   great   because   when   you   look   at   the   the   what   ranges   looks   like   as   of   C23,   this   is   a   lot   closer   to   what   his   original   vision   for   ranges   was   because   when   ranges   was   put   into   C20,   um   uh   just   because   of   the   scope   and   size   of   it,   a   lot   of   it   had   to   be   paired   back.   A   lot   of   the   important   uh   range   adapters   were   were   left   out   of   the   initial   pass,   and   now   a   lot   of   them   have   been   added   in   23.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:20</time>
      <p>
          Yep,   it&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   beautiful.   That&#39;s   I&#39;ve   decided   for   the   couple   C   conferences   that   I&#39;m   gonna   submit   to,   one   of   them   I   already   submitted   to.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>4:28</time>
      <p>
          Which   one?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:28</time>
      <p>
          Uh   C   on   C.   Oh,   they&#39;re   open   already.   It   uh   I   believe   the   call   for   papers   is   open   until   January   8th,   and   this   is   getting   recorded   a   couple   days   before   that   and   will   get   released.   When   will   this   get   released?   On   January   6th.   So   if   you&#39;re   listening   to   this   between   January   6th   and   January   8th,   I   mean   there&#39;s   a   chance   that   the   call   for   papers   might   get   extended.   But   yeah,   I   mean,   I   um   this   is   before   they&#39;ve   you   know   started   accepting.   So   it   might   not   get   accepted,   but   I   plan   to   submit   it   to   a   couple   of   C   conferences.   So   hopefully   one   of   them,   it&#39;ll   get   accepted.   And   it&#39;s   just   gonna   be   a   talk   basically   covering   what   everything   that&#39;s   new   in   C23   ranges,   and   also   an   overview   of   the   algorithmslash   range   landscape,   because   it&#39;s   actually   like   hella   confusing   now.   If   you&#39;re   just   coming   to   C23,   even   C20,   there   are   now   basically   three   different   ways   to   call   transform   algorithm.   There&#39;s   the   iterator   overload,   there&#39;s   the   range   overload,   and   that&#39;s   sort   of   like   one   vertical.   And   now   there&#39;s   like   range   land,   which   technically   like   they   don&#39;t   call   those   algorithms.   They&#39;re   range   adapters   and   range   factories,   which   I   mean   I   consider   them   all   under   like   the   algorithm   umbrella.   But   if   you&#39;re   coming   to   C   as   like   a   new   C   programmer,   and   you   go,   you   Google   like   how   do   I,   you   know,   map,   how   do   I   do   a   functional   map   kind   of   thing,   you&#39;re   potentially   gonna   get   like   three   different   answers.   Anyway,   so   I   think   some   little   like   mini   lightning   talk   at   the   beginning   of   uh   what&#39;s   new   in   C23   ranges   that   talks   about   like   there&#39;s   like   two   different   verticals   and   there&#39;s   two   different   overloads   in   this   vertical,   but   really   if   you&#39;re   trying   to   do   like   functional   composition   kind   of   things,   just   stick   to   this   vertical.   Anyways,   that&#39;s   all   some   mini   side   note.   What   I   really   wanted   to   mention,   happy   new   year,   by   the   way,   because   it   is   now   2023.   Yeah,   happy   new   year.   Did   you   hear   the   big   news?   That   happened   right   at   the   end   of   the   new   year   in   the   C   podcast   world,   Bryce.   Did   you   hear   the   big   news?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>6:22</time>
      <p>
          I   didn&#39;t   directly   hear   it,   but   I   saw   some   tweets   uh   uh   that   did   not   directly   mention   it,   and   I   suspect   I   based   on   those   tweets   that   I   know   what   the   news   is,   is   a   certain   other   podcast,   but   have   we   fallen   in   the   rankings?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>6:37</time>
      <p>
          Well,   so   yes.   I   mean,   I   am   both   I&#39;m   conflicted   now.   I&#39;m   both   one,   very   excited,   kinda   sad   that   it&#39;s   not   so   wait,   for   the   listener   that   is   not   informed   and   not   in   the   know,   CPP   cast,   the   number   one   podcast   by   all   measures,   and   the   first,   and   at   one   point   was   the   only,   but   then   in   2022,   like   four   podcasts   started   in   two   months,   one   of   which   was   ours,   um,   is   back.   It&#39;s   kind   of   sad   because   it&#39;s   not   Rob   and   Jason   that   are   coming   back   to   host   it.   It&#39;s   two   new   hosts,   Phil   Nash   and   Timur   Doonler.   I   hope   I&#39;m   pronounced   pronouncing   uh   Teamer&#39;s   name   correctly.   And   very   interestingly,   I   actually   plan   on   making   a   YouTube   video   about   this   because   like   the   landscape   of   C   podcasts,   Phil,   this   is   technically   Phil&#39;s   third   C   podcast   that   he&#39;s   co-hosting   because   he   did   CPP   chat   uh   initially,   and   then   he   did   a   podcast   called   No   Diagnostic   Required,   and   now   he&#39;s   taking   the   what   do   you   call   it,   steering   wheel   of   uh   this   pirate   ship   that   is   CPP   cast.   And   uh   I&#39;m   conflicted   because   one,   obviously   it&#39;s   one   of   my   favorite   podcasts   of   all   time,   so   happy   that   it&#39;s   coming   back.   But   two,   then   what   does   that   mean   for   us?   You   know,   we   were   on   track   to   be.   I   mean,   we   were   the   number   one   active   C   podcast,   although   kind   of   we&#39;re   like   a   Core   period   slash   Rust   podcast.   Um,   but   now   they&#39;re   back,   and   also   two,   so   they&#39;re   not   gonna   be   releasing   episodes   every   week,   it&#39;s   gonna   be   every   two   weeks   for   now,   which   means   that   now   it&#39;s   gonna   take   us   twice   as   long   to   catch   up   episode-wise,   which   they&#39;re   at   350.   We&#39;re   at   like   what   111,   which   is   240.   So   divided   by   50   weeks   is   roughly   that   would   have   been   five   years.   Now   it&#39;s   gonna   take   10   years.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:22</time>
      <p>
          Wait,   wait,   is   it   they&#39;re   not   weekly?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>8:24</time>
      <p>
          No,   they&#39;re   gonna   be   bi-weekly,   so   twice   a   month,   once   every   two   weeks.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:27</time>
      <p>
          Was   it   previous   wasn&#39;t   it   previously   weekly?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>8:29</time>
      <p>
          It   was   previously   weekly.   Yeah,   I   think   they&#39;re   trying   to   make   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:32</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   but   we   will   we   will   still   eventually   catch   up.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>8:34</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   mean,   we&#39;re   like   you   said,   we&#39;re   doing   this   till   one   of   us   dies,   so   as   long   as   we   can   hang   on   for   a   decade,   both   of   us,   we   will   be   able   to   episode-wise.   Anyways,   your   thoughts   and   feelings.   Um   I   know   you&#39;re   not   a   big   podcast   listener,   so   I   guess   you&#39;re   probably   much   less   excited   about   this   than   uh   than   I   was.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:50</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I   mean,   I   do   listen   to   a   decent   number   of   podcasts,   I   guess,   just   not   programme   podcasts.   Um   I   mean,   I   think   it&#39;s   great.   I   think   it&#39;s   it   it   was   really   sad   that   CPB   cast   um   uh   that   the   original   hosts,   you   know,   were   were   decided   that   it   was   time   to   move   on.   Um   because   it   it   was,   I   think,   uh   an   important   part   of   the   the   ecosystem   in   the   community.   Um   uh,   you   know,   not   everybody   consumes   content   uh   uh   or   consumes   uh   things   the   same   way.   You   know,   some   people   prefer   podcasts,   some   people   prefer   conference   talks.   Um   and   I   I   know   that   there   was   a   lot   of   people   who   you   know   listen   to   every   episode   of   CPP   Cast.   And   uh   C   P   kind   of   needs   a   marquee   um   uh   uh   podcast.   You   know,   this   is   not   this   is   a   very   different   podcast   than   their   podcast.   Like   CPP   Cast   is   actually   uh   C   podcast   and   you   know   covers   all   the   made   the   latest   developments,   major   news.   We   just   you   know   talk   about   whatever   we   want.   So   um,   you   know,   there   was   a   gap,   and   uh   I&#39;m   glad   to   see   that   that   uh   that   it&#39;s   back   with   uh   new   hosts,   and   I   think   those   are   two   great   hosts.   Um   it&#39;ll   be   interesting   to   see   whether   they   um   uh   change   up   the   format   at   all.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>10:16</time>
      <p>
          Um   it   seems   like   based   off   of   what   they   did   in   the   first   episode,   because   what   they   did   is   halfway   through   they   were   sort   of   interviewing   each   other   and   then   they   did   like   a   little   record   scratch,   and   then   like   they   said,   let&#39;s   start   it   from   the   top,   because   like   they   were   the   new   host   now,   and   they   did   the   exact   same   sort   of   intro   news   for   a   little   bit   and   then   sort   of   intro   interviewed.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>10:36</time>
      <p>
          But   I   I   mean,   you   know,   the   you&#39;re   obviously   not   gonna   come   into   a   thing   and   just   immediately   change   everything   unless   you&#39;re   Elon   Musk.   Um,   so   but   you   know,   over   time   maybe   they&#39;ll   maybe   they&#39;ll   um   decide   that   there&#39;s   some   things   they   want   to   change   or   that   there&#39;s   some   things   they   want   to   innovate.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>10:55</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   true.   I   wouldn&#39;t   be   surprised   if   there&#39;s   a   new   jingle,   because   um   not   you   probably   didn&#39;t   see   this,   but   uh   C   on   C&#39;s   YouTube   channel   just   released   a   video   um   of   Phil   Nash   singing   a   C   song   called   I   Build   Myself.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:11</time>
      <p>
          And   uh   Yeah,   he   I   seem   to   recall   listening   to   a   live   live   performance   of   something   like   this   when   I   was   at   CPP   on   C   last   year.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:20</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   you   saw   it   live.   Wow.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:22</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   I   think   so.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:23</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   impressive.   And   speaking   of,   we&#39;re   gonna   get   into   today&#39;s   topic,   which   is   gonna   be   the   2022   retro,   but   uh   the   on   the   last   on   the   topic   of   podcasts   and   stuff,   we   actually   got   mentioned   um   in   some   top   10   tech   programming   podcasts   of   2022   on   some   Twitter   Twitter   thread,   but   um   for   the   description,   it   just   took   the   first   sentence   of   our   podcast   description,   which   was   we&#39;re   a   podcast   inspired   by   Magic   Read   Along,   which   is   at   this   point   a   podcast   that   like   less   people   know   about   than   our   podcast.   So   then   I   was   like,   oh   snap,   like   and   that&#39;s   all   they   said,   like   they   didn&#39;t   say   anything   else,   and   I   was   like,   maybe   that   is   a   bad   description.   So   I   went   and   updated   our   podcast   description,   so   it   uh   is   more   descriptive   of   what   we   actually   talk   about,   anyways.   2022   retro.   First   of   all,   how   was   the   holidays?   You   have   a   good   time   time   off   with   family   friends?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:17</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   we   uh   went   to   Florida,   uh,   visited   my   parents.   Um,   it   was   uh   bitterly   cold   the   first   two   to   three   days,   which   I   mean   at   least   it   was   warmer   than   than   than   uh   than   New   York.   It   was   like   in   the   in   the   30s   and   40s   the   first   two   to   three   days   we   were   in   Florida.   But   then   it   got   uh   the   weather   got   a   bit   better.   Um   we   spent   some   time   chilling   out   in   the   pool.   We   went   on   a   boat.   Nice   um   Yeah,   we   did   all   the   all   the   Florida   things.   Didn&#39;t   go   to   the   beach.   Not   really   that   uh   that   part   of   Florida,   and   also   we&#39;re   just   not   really   beach   people.   Um   we&#39;re   all   very   very   pale.   We   uh   we   burn   very   easily.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:00</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   what   they   have   umbrellas   for.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:03</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah.   Yeah,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   funny   in   uh   and   sun   un   and   sunscreen.   Um   my   my   parents   live   in   uh   this   very   nice   um   gated   community   um   uh   just   south   of   Tampa.   Um   and   I   I   was   um   uh   born   in   Tampa.   My   my   mother   uh   who   was   a   bankruptcy   lawyer,   she   um   went   to   uh   Cornell   uh   for   her   undergrad.   Cornell   was   in   upstate   New   York.   Um   that   that   in   that   part   of   New   York   that   gets   very   cold   and   gets   a   ton   of   snow   during   the   winter.   Um   and   she   she   grew   up   uh   in   Long   Island,   um   uh   and   then   decided   that   Long   Island   wasn&#39;t   cold   enough,   so   she   went   to   Cornell   for   undergrad.   Um   and   then   she   decided   that   you   know   Cornell   was   not   cold   enough.   So   then   she   went   to   the   University   of   Chicago   for   graduate   school,   um   which   is   an   even   colder   and   and   for   for   uh   for   law   school,   um   uh   which   is   even   colder.   And   then   after   that,   and   and   she   hates   the   cold.   So   then   after   that,   she&#39;s   like,   you   know   what,   I&#39;m   I   am   done   with   being   in   cold   places,   I   am   going   to   go,   you   know,   as   far   south   as   I   can.   So   she   went   to   uh   to   Tampa   where   she   started   practicing   law,   and   she   was   the   uh   the   first   female   attorney   at   an   uh   uh   a   good   old   boys   southern   law   firm.   And   there   are   lots   of   interesting   and   amusing   stories   uh   about   that.   Um   but   that&#39;s   the   uh   uh   that   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   why   they&#39;re   in   that   part   of   uh   of   Florida   in   the   just   south   of   Tampa,   um,   because   that&#39;s   where   she   lived   for   a   number   of   years,   that&#39;s   where   I   was   born.   Um   I   don&#39;t   usually   like   to   talk   about   the   fact   that   I   am   technically   a   Floridian.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:49</time>
      <p>
          I   think   this   is   the   second   time   it&#39;s   come   up   on   the   podcast,   yes.   And   you   always   post   fix   it   with   uh   try   not   to.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:55</time>
      <p>
          But   they&#39;re   now   and   they&#39;re   in   this   this   very   nice   uh   little   gated   community.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:59</time>
      <p>
          Are   the   gates   it&#39;s   you&#39;ve   mentioned   that   twice   now.   Are   the   gates   important   in   uh   Florida?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:03</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   oh   yeah.   But   so   in   these   like   gated   communities   in   Florida,   um   they   have   these   like   super   powerful   HOAs,   homeowner   associations   that   uh   you   know   tell   you,   you   know,   your   house   has   to   be   this   color,   and   you   know,   you   can   can&#39;t   have,   you   know,   uh   don&#39;t   leave   your   garage   door   open   uh   because   nobody   wants   to   see   the   inside   of   your   garage,   and   and   you   know,   you   you   can&#39;t   put   lawn   gnomes   on   your   lawn   and   stuff   like   that.   Are   you   serious?   All   the   houses   sort   of   look   look   very   similar.   And   um   in   Florida,   in   these   communities,   they   have   this   thing   that   that   they   call   Lanai,   which   I&#39;m   convinced   is   something   that   only   people   in   Florida   know   about.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>15:43</time>
      <p>
          Can   you   spell   that   N-I-G-H?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:45</time>
      <p>
          I   have   no   idea   how   to   spell   it.   Lanai.   Or   Lanai.   Okay.   Yeah,   I   think   it   starts   with   an   L.   Um   And   it&#39;s   like   this   it&#39;s   basically   like   a   backyard   that&#39;s   covered   in   this   um   structure   that   has   like   this   mesh   um   stuff.   And   so   it&#39;s   like   you&#39;re   outside,   you   get   the   sun,   you   know,   if   it   rains,   the   rain   comes   through,   but   the   mesh   keeps   out   like   leaves   and   bugs   and   stuff   like   that.   And   so   you   have   one   of   these   that   covers   your   like   backyard   and   your   pool   um   and   your   hot   tub.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:17</time>
      <p>
          Um   how   do   you   get   the   leaves   off   of   it   when   the   leaves   get   caught   by   this   thing?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:21</time>
      <p>
          What?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:22</time>
      <p>
          How   do   you   get   the   leaves   off   of   like   if   if   it&#39;s   this   mesh   net   kind   of   thing   that&#39;s   keeping   the   leaves   out?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:27</time>
      <p>
          You   gotta   you   have   a   guy   for   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:31</time>
      <p>
          He   just   what   goes   around   like   a   really   tall   skin.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:33</time>
      <p>
          I   think   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   mostly   like   to   keep   the   bugs   out,   so   you   like   don&#39;t   have   to   have   like   mosquitoes   and   stuff   like   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:38</time>
      <p>
          All   right.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:39</time>
      <p>
          Um   and   so   like   then   everybody   who   lives   in   these   little   gated   communities,   they   have   like,   you   know,   they   have   their   indoor   kitchen   and   then   they   have   their   outdoor   kitchen.   Um,   which   is   funny   in   my   my   parents&#39;   house   because   their   indoor   kitchen   and   their   is   in   the   back   of   the   house.   So   it&#39;s   about   it&#39;s   about   ten   feet   away   from   their   outdoor   kitchen.   Um   and   then   they   have   like   their   indoor   dining   table   and   their   outdoor   dining   table.   And   then   they   have   their,   you   know,   they   have   their   living   room   with   their   TV,   and   then   there&#39;s   a   TV   outdoors   in   the   Lanai.   So   you   can   watch   TV   from   the   hot   tub.   Um   it   it&#39;s   just   it&#39;s   a   very   interesting   lifestyle   down   there.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:19</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   gotten   like   I&#39;m   getting   like   Wally   vibes   from   like   uh,   you   know.   I   don&#39;t   know   why.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:26</time>
      <p>
          I   I   think   I   think   more   like   uh   Stepford   Wives.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:31</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   like   the   you   know,   the   everyone&#39;s   on   a   track,   you   know,   there&#39;s   no   lot   there&#39;s   no   creativity,   you   can&#39;t   keep   your   you   know,   your   garage   door   open,   you   know,   it&#39;s   yeah,   same   uh   everyone&#39;s   got   the   same   paint   on   their   houses   and   uh   There&#39;s   this   one   house   in   the   neighborhood   that&#39;s   painted   in   this,   I   I   think,   you   know,   not   awful   pale   green   color.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:50</time>
      <p>
          And   apparently   it   was   a   big   controversy.   Um   the   pale   green   color   was   one   of   the   like   four   or   five   approved   colors   that   you   could   paint   your   house.   But   like   nobody   picked   that   color.   Everybody   else   picked   like   one   of   the,   you   know,   one   of   the   three   shades   of   beige   and   brown.   Um,   but   this   one   couple   picked   this   green,   and   everybody   else,   you   know,   you   you&#39;re   not   gonna   remember   what   like   the   five   different   options   for   house   color   when   you   picked   your   house.   And   so   everybody   else   just   assumes,   oh,   they   this   is   a   non-approved   color.   And   and   so   then   they   complain   to   the   HOA,   but   the   HOA   is   like,   no,   actually,   they&#39;re   allowed   to   have   their   house   that   color.   And   apparently   it&#39;s   a   whole   big   hubbub.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:31</time>
      <p>
          Wow.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>18:31</time>
      <p>
          There   was   one   couple   my   mom   was   telling   me   about   one   couple   moved   in   and   um   they   painted   their   um   their   house   red,   um,   like   not   approved   shade   of   red.   And   the   HOA   is   like,   nope,   you   gotta   paint   it   back.   And   apparently   and   I   and   and   so   we   asked,   what   would   happen   if   you   just   said   no?   Well,   then   the   HOA   would   uh   uh   start   giving   you   a   daily   fine,   and   if   you   don&#39;t   pay   that,   then   eventually   they   could   get   a   lien   on   your   house   and   take   your   house   because   you   painted   it   a   different   color.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>19:03</time>
      <p>
          This   sounds   like   not   real.   Like   what   group   of   what   group   of   people   put   this   gate   up   and   then   had   a   meeting   and   they   were   like,   Alright,   folks,   what   are   the   ground   rules   here?   Like   nothing   on   the   lawn,   it   needs   to   be   the   same   color.   Like,   who   cares?   I   get   clearly   these   people   do.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:22</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   like   the   gate   keeps   like   unauthorized   vehicles   out,   but   there&#39;s   like   a   two-foot   gap   under   the   gate,   and   uh   like   it&#39;s   not   that   tall   a   gate.   Like   you   you   could   get   in   if   you   wanted   to.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>19:31</time>
      <p>
          Alright,   so   so   let&#39;s   um   The   things   you   learn   on   uh   ADSP   the   podcast.   Alright,   2022   retro.   Go.   What&#39;s   your   your   top   three,   your   top   five?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:41</time>
      <p>
          Well,   okay.   So   so   uh   so   I&#39;m   gonna   give   you   my   I&#39;m   gonna   I&#39;m   gonna   I   have   to   tell   you   part   of   my   2023,   you   know,   predictions   at   the   same   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>19:51</time>
      <p>
          Well,   no,   we   usually   we   save   our   uh   2023   looking   forward   for   a   separate   episode,   so   you   gotta   split   those   up.   Unless   if   they&#39;re   intertwined,   in   which   case   we   can   do   something   different   this   year.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:00</time>
      <p>
          They   they   are   intertwined.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:02</time>
      <p>
          Alright,   you   go   right   ahead.   You   do   you   do   you   do   you,   Bryce.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:04</time>
      <p>
          Twenty   2022,   I   think,   will   sort   of   be   remember   at   least   like   in   the   system&#39;s   programming   languages   uh   community   and   the   C   community.   2022   is   like   Star   Wars   Episode   4,   A   New   Ho.   The   C   successor   languages.   Um   we&#39;ve   had   um   you   know,   the   announcement   of   uh   Carbon.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:30</time>
      <p>
          Wait,   wait,   wait.   I   have   to   interrupt.   What   is   the   scene   of   uh   Anakin   trying   to   jump   over   uh   uh   Obi-Wan   and   uh   you   know,   you   lie,   what   are   the   what   does   he   say?   Oh   I   have   the   oh   yeah,   I   have   the   upper   ground.   Yeah,   yeah.   And   then   he   ends   up   getting   his   legs   cut   off,   and   then   he&#39;s   burning   at   the   side.   What   is   uh   what   is   that   map   to   in   your   analogy   here,   bro?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:56</time>
      <p>
          I   uh   no   comment.   No   comment.   That&#39;s   just   a   typical   C   user&#39;s   experience   with   a   compiler.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:07</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   gonna   cut   in   I&#39;m   gonna   cut   in   uh   the   actual   audio   from   uh   from   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>22:20</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   that&#39;s   just   that&#39;s   just   what   happens   when   you   uh   you   know   write   some   some   bad   template   heavy   C   code   and   the   compiler   punishes   you   for   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:31</time>
      <p>
          Maybe   I&#39;ll   join   maybe   I&#39;ll   join   uh   TikTok   or   something   uh   and   and   create   some   little   meme   of   like   uh   Obi-Wan   being   the   compiler   and   Anakin   being   the   C   developer.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>22:45</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   like   don&#39;t   well   and   I   think   like   earlier   the   before   he   says   I   have   the   high   ground,   he   you   know   he&#39;s   I   think   he   says   something   like   uh   like   don&#39;t   try   it,   I   have   the   high   ground.   And   that&#39;s   like   the   commander   like   like   don&#39;t   try   it.   You&#39;re   you&#39;re   you&#39;re   gonna   be   unhappy.   You   were   the   chosen   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:01</time>
      <p>
          All   right,   I   interrupted   you,   sorry.   So   it   was   the   Okay,   all   right.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>23:04</time>
      <p>
          So   um   Year   of   Successor   Languages.   2022   Um   is   I   think   gonna   be   remembered   as   the   the   year   of   the   C   successor   languages.   Um   there&#39;s   you   know   carbon.   Um   I   think   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   been   growing   interest   in   developments   all   around   Circle.   Um   uh   did   did   Sean   give   his   keynote   on   on   Circle   at   C   now   last   year   in   2022.   I   think   that   was   the   year.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:32</time>
      <p>
          I   think   it   was   2022,   yeah,   because   we   talked   to   him   about   um   yeah,   we   talked   about   it   on   this   podcast.   Yeah,   and   uh   we   also   had   him   on   where   he   talked   about   it.   Great   episode   if   you   haven&#39;t   seen   heard   that   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>23:42</time>
      <p>
          Um   there&#39;s   also   Dave   Abraham&#39;s   language   Val.   Um   uh   there&#39;s   uh   CPP2.   Um   what   awesome   I   forgot   in   any   others.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:55</time>
      <p>
          Um   I   mean,   technically   Yacht,   which   is   the   language   being   developed   inside   Serenity   OS,   but   I   don&#39;t   think   that   we   haven&#39;t   heard   much   about   that   being   a   successor   language,   but   that   is,   you   know,   in   the   space   of   There&#39;s   also   been   growing   uh   interest   in   success   for   Rust.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>24:12</time>
      <p>
          Um   one   thing   in   particular   there   that   I   think   was   sort   of   a   hallmark   moment   was   um   uh   the   first   Rust   code   getting   into   the   Linux   kernel.   Um,   you   know,   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   a   place   that   C   has   not   been.   Um   so   okay,   so   if   uh   if   2022   has   been,   you   know,   s   uh   Star   Wars   Episode   4   or   A   New   Hope,   then   of   course   2023   will   be   episode   5,   Empire   Strikes   Back.   Um   uh   I   I   think   that   uh   one   of   the   themes   of   next   year   will   be   um   uh   languages   like   C   and   C   responding   to   uh   uh   the   uh   successor   languages   and   responding   to   the   uh   criticisms   of   them,   the   claims   that   they   are   legacy   languages.   Um   one   of   the   other   things   that   happened   in   2022,   um   there   were   some   US   government   agency   that   put   out   some   cybersecurity   advisory   which   you   know   suggested   that   uh   C   and   C   were   unsafe   uh   languages   or   unsuitable   languages   because   of   the   memory   safety   concerns.   Um   uh   or   at   least   set   somebody   interpreted   the   advisory   they   put   out   in   that   way.   Um   and   and   so   what   what   what   will   what   will   the   Empire&#39;s   strike   back   be   NSA   in   2023?   It   was   the   Who?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>25:48</time>
      <p>
          The   NSA,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>25:49</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   the   NSA.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>25:50</time>
      <p>
          And   there   was   like   the   two   big   things   where   the   Microsoft   Azure   CTO   saying   that   like   C   should   be   deprecated   as   a   new   language   that   new   projects   use,   and   the   NSA   came   out   saying   memory   safe   languages   are   the   way   to   go.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:04</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   don&#39;t   think   they   explicitly   said   don&#39;t   use   C   and   C.   They   just   said   use   memory   safe   languages.   And   some   people   interpret   that   uh   interpreted   that   as   um   don&#39;t   use   C   and   C.   Um   so   how   will   the   Empire   strike   back?   Well,   um   C23   and   C23   will   be   published   and   go   out   the   door   this   year,   and   we   will   see   um   uh   implementations   uh   start   shipping   support   for   uh   C23   and   C23   this   year.   Um   I   think   Fortran   may   also   the   next   revision   may   go   out   this   year,   but   uh   don&#39;t   quote   me   on   that.   I   don&#39;t   remember   the   dates   exactly.   Um   but   the   other   thing   is   that   there&#39;s   been   a   renewed   interest   in   what   we   could   do   in   uh   uh   C   to   improve   um   uh   uh   safety,   um,   including   some   very   bold   proposals   that   we   do   things   on   a   um   very   accelerated   timeline.   Um   one   of   the   interesting   proposals   is   uh   from   my   uh   my   dear   friend   JF   Bastion,   uh   who   is   uh   the   chair   of   the   uh   C   evolution   working   group,   and   he   works   at   uh   Woven   Planet   now,   which   is   a   subsidiary   of   Toyota,   um   and   he   uh   wrote   a   proposal   um   uh   a   few   years   ago,   I   think,   um   uh   proposing   that   uh   we   zero   initialize   objects   of   automatic   storage   duration.   Um   because   one   of   the   um   uh   leading   uh   uh   causes   of   uh   uh   UB   that   leads   to   security   issues   um   is   reading   uninitialized   values,   um   which   can   uh   allow   an   attacker   to   um   uh   uh   uh   get   it   information   that   they   shouldn&#39;t   have   been   able   to,   and   then   thus   uh   uh   control   uh   execution.   Um   and   I   I   think   it&#39;s   uh   CWE457.   Um   and   uh   and   so   the   proposal   is   is   pretty   simple.   It&#39;s   just   like,   hey,   like   we   should   just   zero   initialize   objects   of   automatic   storage   duration.   Um   and   you   know,   why   don&#39;t   we   do   this   today?   Um   well   there&#39;s   obviously   you   know   the   performance   concern,   right?   Um,   you   know,   okay,   if   we   have   to   settle   these   things   to   zero,   well   that   requires   some   work.   Um   the   the   proposal   from   JF   actually   talks   about   um   uh   this   in   in   a   good   bit   of   detail.   Um   it   both   talks   about   you   know   concrete   numbers,   um,   but   also   in   the   um,   you   know,   what   what   why   do   we   see   a   uh   a   performance   problem?   And   it&#39;s   not   just   the   cost   of   actually   setting   um   uh   the   uh   the   values   to   zero,   it   can   also   um   uh   screw   up   compiler   optimizations.   Um   it   can   like   break   dependencies,   um   uh   uh   which   can   uh   uh   mess   around   with   various   compiler   optimizations,   and   it   can   also   mess   uh   mess   around   with   um   like   various   hardware   uh   various   optimizations   that   your   that   your   CPU   does   um   uh   when   uh   scheduling   instructions.   Um   uh   but   uh   JF&#39;s   paper   sort   of   you   know   explores   the   these   um   uh   performance   implications   and   presents   some   numbers   and   suggests   that   that   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   pretty   negligible   these   days.   Um   uh   that   it&#39;s   uh   in   a   lot   of   case   in   the   cases   where   there   are   regressions   and   it&#39;s   usually   like   less   than   0.5%.   Um   and   then   in   some   cases   um   uh   the   code   actually   gets   faster.   Um   and   there&#39;s   also   pretty   small   code   size   impact.   Um   so   it   seems   like   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   not   really   a   strong   performance   case.   I   mean,   there   are   some   applications,   there&#39;s   some   places   where   um,   you   know,   an   uh   a   plus   or   minus   one   percent   can   actually   be   a   really   big   deal.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:44</time>
      <p>
          Wait,   you   went   from   uh   0.05   to   plus   or   minus   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>30:48</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I&#39;m   rounding   up.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:49</time>
      <p>
          Okay.   From   five   basis   points   to   a   lot   of   things.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>30:55</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;re   talking   orders   of   magnitude   here,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:57</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   that   is   a   different   order   of   magnitude.   Um   But   anyways,   we&#39;re   de   uh   roughly   we&#39;re   talking   about   a   percentage.   Yeah.   Or   less.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:08</time>
      <p>
          Um   uh   Andre   Alexandriscu   uh   gave   a   great   talk   a   few   years   ago   um   at   uh   uh   where   when   he   was   still   working   at   Facebook   and   he   talked   about   the   uh   the   impact   of   some   performance   optimizations   that   got   like   a   two   to   three   percent   improvement   um   across   some   like   core   Facebook   code.   And   he   was   like,   that&#39;s   actually   like   a   really   big   deal   if   you   if   you   look   at   like   this   code   is   deployed   at   scale,   and   you   know,   that   actually   saves   us   like   millions   of   dollars.   Um   uh   uh,   you   know,   having   to   like   allowing   the   code   to   run   two   to   three   percent   faster.   That   means   we   can   have   two   to   three   percent   less,   you   know,   uh   machines   in   the   fleet   or   or   uh   two   to   three   percent   more   throughputs.   Like   that   can,   you   know,   that   that   can   be   a   big   deal.   Um,   but   I   think   JF&#39;s   uh   argument   in   this   proposal   is   um   uh   the   performance   cost   is   uh   small   enough   that   that   the   the   benefits   far   outweigh   it.   And   of   course,   you   know,   like   almost   everything   in   C,   there&#39;ll   be   some   compiler   flag   where   you&#39;ll   be   able   to   opt   out   of   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:16</time>
      <p>
          Um   I   think   that&#39;s   the   important   part   is   that   the   yeah   I   I   remember   JF   talked   about   this   in   his   meetup   YouTube   recording   that   I   saw,   and   they   said   that   there   would   be   for   the   people   like   you   know,   high   frequency   trading   firms   and   stuff   where   uh   every   little   you   know   cycle   matters   that   you   know   they&#39;re   not   gonna   have   to   worry   about   upgrading   their   compiler   and   then   having   a   performance   degradation   um   or   pessimization   because   of   trying   to   gain   safety   for   stuff   that   I&#39;m   sure   that   they   don&#39;t   not   that   they   don&#39;t   care   about   safety,   but   let&#39;s   be   honest.   HFT   firms   care   about   uh   like   speed   of   light.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:50</time>
      <p>
          And   in   addition   to   a   uh   uh   uh   I&#39;m   sure   there&#39;ll   be   a   compiler   optimization   to   just   globally   turn   this   off.   There   the   proposal   also   um   uh   suggests   that   we   should   add   a   um   an   uninitialized   attribute,   which   uh   a   programmer   can   put   on   variables   that&#39;ll   that&#39;ll   indicate,   hey,   uh,   you   know,   don&#39;t   zero   initialize   this.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>33:11</time>
      <p>
          Like   a   like   a   double   double   square   bracket   attribute.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>33:14</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah,   yeah.   Um   but   uh   the   idea   here   is   to   get   the   default   right   um   to   uh   instead   of   having   a   zero   initialized   attribute   that   becomes   something   that   everybody   has   to   put   on   every   variable,   you   make   the   default   that   we&#39;re   going   to   we&#39;re   gonna   change   by   default,   and   if   you   want   to   opt   out,   you   add   this   attribute.   Um   which   that&#39;s   not   normally   how   we   have   done   things   in   C   ⁇ .   Usually   we&#39;re   like,   well,   make   people   opt   into   the   new   thing.   Um   but   uh   in   this   case,   um   uh   you   know   that   would   have   uh   I   think   very   limited   utility   here,   and   so   it&#39;s   nice   to   see   a   proposal   that   actually   suggests   that   we   uh   um   that   we   pick   the   right   that   we   take   the   right   default.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>33:54</time>
      <p>
          And   what   are   your   thoughts   on   uh   C   ⁇ &#39;s   ability   within   this   proposal   slash   outside   of   this   proposal   over   the   next   immediate   year?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>34:02</time>
      <p>
          You   said   I   think   this   is   low-hanging   fruit.   Yeah.   I   mean,   I   think   that&#39;s   um   that&#39;s   why   JF   has   suggested   it,   because   it&#39;s   low-hanging   fruit.   Um   it&#39;s   something   that   it&#39;s   pretty   easy   for   us   to   do.   Um   uh   and   it&#39;ll   it&#39;ll   address   a   certain   class   of   vulnerability.   It&#39;ll   make   us   a   little   bit   more   memory   safe.   Um   uh   so   we   should   do   it.   Um   it   doesn&#39;t   it&#39;s   not   a   full   solution,   it   does   doesn&#39;t   magically   make   C   ⁇   a   memory   safe   language.   There&#39;s   still   um   many   ways   in   which   C   ⁇   is   uh   uh   memory   unsafe,   but   this   is   um   this   doesn&#39;t   a   lot   of   those   a   lot   of   the   ways   in   which   C   is   memory   unsafe,   um   or   a   lot   a   lot   of   a   lot   of   the   common   causes   of   um   uh   vulnerabilities   in   C   ⁇   come   from   uh   aspects   of   the   language   that   uh   that   have   fundamental   utility.   Um   like   things   like   pointers   or   references   or   the   fact   that   we   um   we   don&#39;t   have   a   um   uh   a   safe   ownership   model   of   objects   like   Rust.   Um   all   of   those   lead   to   vulnerabilities,   but   those   are   all   things   that   if   you   can&#39;t   just   like   change   them   because   they&#39;re   they   provide   fundamental   utility.   Like   yeah,   yeah,   they   can   be   foot   guns,   but   they&#39;re   also   useful   tools.   Um   not   zero   initializing   stack   variables   doesn&#39;t   really   provide   any   utility.   The   reason   we   don&#39;t   initialize   them   is   for   performance,   or   historically   it&#39;s   been   for   performance.   But   it&#39;s   not   this   is   not,   you   know,   uh   a   change   which   like   takes   away   some   functionality   from   people,   right?   Right.   Um   so   I   I   I   think   it&#39;s   low-hanging   fruit,   we   should   just   do   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>36:19</time>
      <p>
          The   Empire   strikes   back   with   potentially   an   uninitialized   attribute.   Which   like   uh   it   sounds   ugly   to   me,   but   to   be   honest,   I   never   write   code   like   that,   so   like   it   and   maybe   that&#39;s   okay   that   it&#39;s   ugly,   that   you   know,   most   of   the   times   you   shouldn&#39;t   be   doing   that   and   making   a   bad   choice   ugly.   Maybe   not   bad   choice,   but   like   a   for   the   majority   of   times   a   bad   choice.   I&#39;m   sure   there   are   cases   where   you   know   there   are   there&#39;s   a   reason   why   there&#39;s   a   whole   set   of   uninitialized   algorithms   that   uh   they   exist   for   a   reason. Yeah. Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>