

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          Ben   is   going   to   be   temporarily   replacing   Bryce.   I   say   every   once   in   a   while   on   the   podcast   that   uh   we   do   have   to   test   out   different   co-hosts,   you   know,   in   case   uh   Bryce   takes   a   tumble.   Temporarily,   as   temporarily,   as   far   as   Bryce   knows.
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>0:12</time>
      <p>
          Of   course,   of   course,   like   way   way   better,   way   better.   Like   your   subscriptions   will   double   at   least.
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>0:17</time>
      <p>
          I   really   like   it.   Honestly,   it&#39;s   my   first   it&#39;s   my   first   conference,   both   as   attendee   and   speaker.
      </p>

        <cite>Tristan Brindle</cite>
      <time>0:23</time>
      <p>
          The   conference   is   awesome.   So   uh   we&#39;re   recording   this   at   the   end   of   the   second   day.   Honestly,   a   really,   really   fantastic   experience   so   far.   I   know,   spreading   the   love   for   functional   programming   patterns   and   hang   on,   this   thing   is   actually   a   find   if,   or   this   thing   is   a   count   if,   or   that   you   know,   that&#39;s   a   rotate.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>0:39</time>
      <p>
          Uh   but   definitely   changes   the   way   you   think   about   code.   So   it&#39;s   about   shifting   the   way   you   you   approach   code   and   design.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:46</time>
      <p>
          You   could   imagine   some   like   godlike   voice   saying,   and   then   there   was   the   elementary   identificator.   We   started   with   I. What   about   what   do   you   mean,   what   about?   It&#39;s   about   ducks,   right? Ducks?   It&#39;s   not   about   ducks. Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   140,   recorded   on   July   18th,   2023.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Ben   Dean,   we   record   live   from   CPP   North   2023   in   Toronto,   Canada.   We   interview   several   different   speakers:   Vincent   Zalzau,   Victor   Ciora,   Tristan   Brindle,   and   Andreas   Weiss.   We   are   here   live   from   C   North.   CPP   North!   I   still   messed   it   up,   it&#39;s   all   right.   With   Bendin,   it   is   live   2023.   Today   is   July   18th,   second   day   of   the   conference,   and   you   have   finished   both   your   talks.   You   gave   one   talk,   Calindrical   C,   yesterday   on   Monday,   and   you   just   finished   your   keynote   today,   optimizing   for   change.   It   was   absolutely   fantastic.   How&#39;s   the   conference   been,   and   how   have   your   two   talks   been?
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>1:59</time>
      <p>
          The   conference   has   been   great.   My   two   talks   have   both   been   great.   Um   the   calendrical   one   was   that   was   the   fifth   time,   I&#39;ve   I   think   the   fifth   or   fourth   time   I&#39;ve   given   that   talk,   so   that   was   that&#39;s   a   really   fun   talk,   you   know.   Um   it   was   originally   scheduled   later   in   the   week,   but   uh   with   things   being   swapped   around   with   some   folks   had   travel   issues,   it   got   swapped   to   yesterday.   And   then   the   keynote   this   morning,   you   know,   I   have   this   thing   when   I&#39;m   up   on   stage,   I   don&#39;t   really   remember   what   happens   up   on   stage.   I   think   it   went   well.   I   think   I   hit   all   the   points   I   meant   to   hit,   and   uh   people   seem   to   uh   enjoy   it,   so   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   a   win.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>2:34</time>
      <p>
          I   personally   thought,   I   mean,   I   can&#39;t   speak   for   everyone   at   the   conference,   I   thought   it   was   fantastic.   The   links   will   be   in   the   show   notes,   but   probably   actually   by   the   time   I   think   keynotes,   I   don&#39;t   actually   know.   The   links   they   might   go   up   fairly   soon.   Keynotes   typically   go   up   first,   so   the   keynote   talk   will   definitely   be   linked.   And   I   think   I   don&#39;t   actually   think   your   calendrical   C1   is   out   from   C   now   yet,   but   by   the   time   this   airs,   it   probably   will   be,   because   I   know   that   C   now   is   slowly   rolling   out,   so   there   will   be   some   lot   links,   some   will   be   live,   some   will   be   live   in   the   future.   Outside   of   your   two   talks,   what   have   you   enjoyed   most?   Is   it   the   food?   Has   it   been   another   talk?
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>3:12</time>
      <p>
          There&#39;s   been   lots   of   good   stuff   here.   The   food   is   good,   the   food&#39;s   really   great.   The   maple   tarts   came   out   just   now.   We   just   literally   like   this   break   session.   Did   you   did   you   have   one?   I   did,   I   had   one.   I   was   specifically   looking   for   them.   Apparently   they   and   I   asked   Mike   about   them   from   yesterday,   and   that&#39;s   how   I   learned   they&#39;d   be   here   right   now.   Uh   but   the   talks   have   been   fantastic   as   well.   Um   your   talk   composition   intuition   was   just   super   fun,   all   about   uh   combinators.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>3:42</time>
      <p>
          A   passion   project   of   mine.   Link   will   be   in   that,   in   the   description.   That   probably   won&#39;t   be   up   for   a   couple   months,   but   uh   all   of   them   all   the   talks   are   being   recorded,   so   you&#39;ll   be   able   to   watch   them   online   if   you   weren&#39;t   here   at   the   conference.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>3:53</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   absolutely.   Um   I&#39;ve   been   just   trying   to   go   to   talks   that   uh   are   new   to   me.   There&#39;s   always   a   few   at   every   conference   where   people,   you   know,   people   because   people   make   typically   maybe   one   talk   a   year,   maybe   two,   and   they   take   them   to   different   conferences.   So   there&#39;s   a   couple   of   talks   here,   like   would   be   at   any   conference   that   I&#39;d   seen   before   on   YouTube   or   from   ACCU   or   wherever   it   was   given   before.   So   I&#39;ve   been   trying   to   hit   talks   that   I   haven&#39;t   seen.   Um   I   really   enjoyed   Victor&#39;s   talk.   Uh   I   enjoyed   Timo&#39;s   talk   on   safety,   which   which   I   had   seen   and   actually   an   earlier   version   of,   I   think,   but   you   know,   people   also   evolve   their   talks,   so   that   was   great.   Victor&#39;s   talk   was   fantastic.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:33</time>
      <p>
          It   was   what,   and   then   some   tea,   I   think.   And   then   some   tea.   Yeah,   and   then   paren   paren   some   paren   paren   tea.   It   was   about   what   was   it   about?
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>4:44</time>
      <p>
          It   was   about   uh   functional   patterns   with   optional   and   expected.   And   maybe   some   other   things   I   don&#39;t   remember   because   I&#39;m   on   the   mic.   Yeah,   that   was   basically   my   recollection   as   well.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:58</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   it   had   an   odd   title.   It   could   have   had   a   different   title   that   was   like,   you   know,   yeah,   exactly   what   you   just   said.   Functional   patterns   with   optional   and   expected.   And   it   it   alluded.   There   was   a   bit   of   Haskell   code,   uh   talked   a   little   bit   about   functional   programming,   what   my   favorite   kind   of,   you   know,   sprinkling   code   from   different   languages,   show   how   we   stole   ideas   and   how   to   use   them   well   in   C.   But   right?   Yeah,   that&#39;s   about   sounds   about   right   to   me.   Alright,   I   think   the   goal   is   now,   you   are   going   to   be   my   replacement   for   Bryce,   my   traditional   co-host,   co-host   for   the   moment,   but   uh   being   replaced   by   Ben   himself.   And   also,   too,   I   keep   the   stats,   and   maybe   we&#39;re   probably   in   a   bad   place   because   now   that   I   realize   we&#39;re   standing   right   in   front   of   the   coffee.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>5:40</time>
      <p>
          We   could   step   down   into   the   more   upholstered   area   where   there&#39;s   less   odd   surfaces.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>5:45</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   exactly   what   we&#39;re   gonna   do.   And   it&#39;s   for   the   moment,   Bryce,   I&#39;m   gonna   hand   the   mic   to   Ben.   Ben&#39;s   gonna   do   the   interviewing,   I&#39;m   gonna   do   the   audio   adjusting.   And   the   point   is,   Ben   is   gonna   be   temporarily   replacing   replacing   Bryce.   I   say   every   once   in   a   while   on   the   podcast   that   uh   we   do   have   to   test   out   different   co-hosts,   you   know,   in   case   uh   Bryce   takes   a   tumble. Temporarily,   as   temporarily,   as   far   as   Bryce   knows.   Yes. And   and   that   was   what   I   was   gonna   say   is   we&#39;ll   see   how   Bryce   reacts.   Well,   I   have   all   the   power,   so   if   I   want   you   to   be   co-host   for   the   day,   you   get   to   be   co-host   for   the   day.   I   was   gonna   say   is   I   think   you   are   the   number   two   most   featured   guest   by   podcast   edits,   like   by   podcast   numbers.   Sean   is   number   one.   I   believe   when   this   is   released,   it&#39;ll   be   like   11   podcasts   across   four   interviews,   and   I   think   you   are   at   like   seven   or   eight   across   two   interviews,   because   we   I   think   it&#39;s   just   I   think   it&#39;s   just   that   we   we   talk   for   so   long   when   we   interview,   and   you   split   it   up   for   like   maybe   four   or   five.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>6:41</time>
      <p>
          Like   I&#39;ve   only   actually   talked   to   you   twice,   but   you   don&#39;t   tend   to   have   guests   very   frequently.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>6:46</time>
      <p>
          Maybe   you&#39;re   ramping   that   up   a   bit,   but   Yeah,   it&#39;s   and   actually   I   think   it&#39;s   three   times   now   because   the   most   recent,   uh,   you   and   Tristan,   that   was   the   third.   We   did   a   solo   one   with   you   that   was   like   four,   and   then   we   did   the   you   and   Tony   live   from   C   now   virtual   20   2020   or   2021.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>7:04</time>
      <p>
          Was   it   virtual?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>7:06</time>
      <p>
          It   was   definitely   virtual,   I   think.   I   think   I   think   that   was   the   2020,   it   was   the   first   virtual   conference,   right?   I   think   it   was   cancelled   in   20,   and   it   must   have   been   21   when   it   came   back.   That   definitely   sounds   right,   actually.   Yeah,   I   think   2019   was   the   last   in-person   one   pre-COVID.   2020   was   canceled,   and   then   2021.   I   think   that   was   completely   virtual.   And   then   Tony   showed   up   halfway   through.   Right,   right,   because   we   were   in   that   I   forget   the   name   of   it.   Uh   Gathertown,   Gather   Town.   Gather   Town,   Gather   Town,   yes.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>7:35</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>7:36</time>
      <p>
          Alright,   now   we&#39;re   now   we&#39;re   hunting.   We&#39;ve   talked   to   Kay   Gregory   and   Jessica   Kerr,   two   of   our   keynotes.   One   is   spoken   on   Monday,   Jessica   speaking   tomorrow.   They&#39;ve   both   agreed   to   chat   with   us   tomorrow,   but   right   now   they&#39;re   both   preparing   for   lightning   talks,   which   are   going   to   be   taking   place   in   less   than   45   minutes   or   so.   Vincent,   do   you   want   to   be   interviewed?   Alright,   I&#39;m   handing   the   I&#39;m   handing   the   mic   over   to   Ben.   You&#39;re   in   charge   now.   And   uh   Bryce,   let&#39;s   hope   he   doesn&#39;t   do   too   well   because   uh   your   your   you   know   your   tenure   here   could   be   uh   could   be   on   uh   you   know   limited   here.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>8:06</time>
      <p>
          Alright,   so   uh   here   we   have   Vincent   Zalzal.   Uh   you   just   gave   a   talk   that   I   was   in   just   now,   and   it   was   about   how   to   write   readable   code.   How&#39;d   it   go?
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>8:18</time>
      <p>
          Did   I   did   better   than   I   thought   I   would.   Uh   really   I&#39;m   happy   uh   with   how   it   went,   and   uh   I   hope   that   it&#39;s   a   nice   intro   talk   for   anyone   that   wants   to   learn   to   use   the   C   core   guidelines   and   choose   right   parameter   types,   uh   write   code   that   every   team   member   can   understand   clearly,   and   yeah,   I   just   hope   that   it   gets   shared   in   the   end.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>8:43</time>
      <p>
          Right   on,   yeah.   Uh   how&#39;s   the   conference   been   in   general?
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>8:47</time>
      <p>
          I   really   like   it.   Honestly,   it&#39;s   my   first   it&#39;s   my   first   conference   both   as   attendee   and   speaker.   So   I   really   like   it.   I   like   uh   seeing   all   all   the   people   I   I&#39;ve   looked   at   uh   on   the   internet   before,   like   you   actually,   and   uh   listen   to   the   podcast.   So   uh   yeah,   I&#39;m   very   happy   and   uh   surprised   actually   to   now   be   on   the   podcast.   So   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>9:09</time>
      <p>
          So   this   is   the   first   time   you&#39;ve   been   to   any   C   conference,   did   you   say?
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>9:13</time>
      <p>
          It   is,   it   is.   It&#39;s   my   first   time,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>9:15</time>
      <p>
          You   think   you&#39;re   gonna   come   back   to   this   one   or   to   any   others?
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>9:19</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   maybe,   uh   maybe.   The   the   stress   level   was   quite   high,   so   I   have   to   uh   uh   calm   down   first.   But   uh   yeah,   yeah,   I   th   I   think   so.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>9:28</time>
      <p>
          Well,   great,   great.   We   have   a   new   speaker   on   the   circuit.   We   have   Vincent.   That&#39;s   fantastic.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>9:34</time>
      <p>
          And   I&#39;ll   uh   follow   up   with   a   question   just   just   for   the   listeners,   where   are   you   where   are   you   based   out   of   and   uh   and   what   do   you   do   for   work?
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>9:41</time>
      <p>
          So   uh   I&#39;m   uh   based   in   Montreal   and   uh   Canada,   and   I   work   in   the   computer   vision   industry.   So   I&#39;ve   done   3D   reconstruction   and   sensor   calibration,   so   camera   calibration,   think   about   removing   distortion   from   images,   taking   world   measurements   uh   from   pixels,   converting   all   of   that,   maybe   confirming   that   uh   mechanical   object   is   uh   to   specs,   that   kind   of   stuff.   So   computer   vision   in   general.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>10:10</time>
      <p>
          Awesome.   How   long   have   you   been   programming   C?
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>10:13</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   been   uh   using   C   professionally   for   15   years,   a   little   more   than   that   uh   before   at   school,   say.   And   I&#39;ve   used   some   other   languages,   but   mainly   C   at   work.   I&#39;ve   done   some   C2   for   two   years,   and   on   the   side,   some   MATLAB,   Python,   some   Rust.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>10:32</time>
      <p>
          And   how   modern   is   the   C   you   you   get   to   use?   What   standard   are   you   on?
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>10:36</time>
      <p>
          Uh   it   depends.   Uh   unfortunately,   uh   I&#39;ve   been   uh   capped   to   C   14   for   a   very   long   while.   So   it&#39;s   actually   by   looking   at   those   uh   conferences,   those   talks   that   I   could   keep   up   to   date   and   by   side   you   doing   side   projects   and   that   kind   of   stuff.   And   in   the   last   two   years   I&#39;ve   been   doing   C   sharp.   So   uh   uh   yeah,   I   I   felt   almost   like   an   imposter   now   not   being   at   the   forefront   uh   and   not   using   C   in   the   last   two   years,   but   uh   I   think   I&#39;ve   kept   enough   up   to   date   to   be   on   par,   at   least   to   be   a   speaker.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:11</time>
      <p>
          So   I   mean   uh   C   sharp   has   the   benefit   that   Link   came   in   what,   C   sharp   3   or   something?   I   don&#39;t   know   anything   about   C   sharp,   but   I   know   that   the   equivalent   of   C20   ranges   stuff   has   been   in   C   sharp   for   many   versions   now.   So   my   guess   is   that   you   have   access   to   that   kind   of   stream   fusion,   composable   function   stuff,   which   is   great   for   C   sharp.   We   love   that,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>11:30</time>
      <p>
          Honestly,   Link   in   C   sharp   is   pretty   neat.   I   I   find   it   really   nice   to   use.   Uh   and   it&#39;s,   you   know,   the   the   fact   that   you   can   use   the   dot   syntax   or   it   you   can   use   the   SQL   syntax   if   you   prefer.   You   have   like   two   different   syntax   to   use   that,   depending   on   which   you&#39;re   more   comfortable   with.   But   there   are   also   things   that   I   really   dislike   about   uh   C   sharp,   so   yeah,   I&#39;m   glad   to   be   back   to   C   now.   So   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>11:56</time>
      <p>
          Cool.   I   need   to   tell   you   by   the   way   that   uh   the   global   API   injection   pattern   is   usable   in   14.   It&#39;s   not   just   for   17,   even   though   I   showed   it   with   a   variable   template,   which   is   17,   you   can   do   it   with   a   function   template   with   return   type   deduction.   Right?   11   doesn&#39;t   have   return   type   deduction,   so   you   can&#39;t   specialize   the   function   template   in   the   same   way,   but   it   works   on   14.   So   if   you   are   still   stuck   on   14,   you   can   still   use   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Vincent Zalzal</cite>
      <time>12:24</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   looking   forward   actually   to   look   at   that   code,   understand   it   calmly,   and   yeah,   I&#39;m   very   curious   to   know   because   it&#39;s   a   very   common   problem   having   global   APIs.   I   think   everybody   has   that   problem.   So   if   it   there&#39;s   a   nice   pattern   that   we   could   encapsulate   and   propagate,   it   would   be   so   nice.   So   yeah,   I&#39;m   looking   forward   to   try   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:45</time>
      <p>
          Cool,   awesome.   All   right,   thank   you   so   much,   Vincent.   We   will   definitely   link   your   YouTube   talk   when   it   comes   out   in   the   show   notes.   And   if   you&#39;re   on   the   socials,   I&#39;ll   find   you   and   link   your   stuff   so   people   can   follow   you.   I&#39;m   not   sure   Twitter,   Mastodon,   Threads,   you   know.   It&#39;s   a   confusing   time   for   social   media.   But   uh   I   will   track   you   down   if   you   have   it   and   we&#39;ll   we&#39;ll   link   it   in   the   show   notes.   Thanks   for   being   on   the   pod.   Thank   you.   Alright,   we   are   going   to   go   find   maybe   we   should   talk   to   Victor,   seeing   as   we   were   talking   about   his   talk.   I   see   the   back   of   his   head   right   there.   Victor,   do   you   want   to   be   on   the   podcast? What   about? Are   you   telling   me   you   don&#39;t   listen   to   ADSP   the   podcast? It&#39;s   about   travel.   It&#39;s   about   ducks,   right? Ducks?   It&#39;s   not   about   ducks.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>13:28</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   about   the   travels   of   Bryce   and   Connor.   Yeah,   that&#39;s   just   C.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:32</time>
      <p>
          Do   you   want   to   you   wanna   you   wanna   go?   I   don&#39;t   know   if   I   or   do   you   have   to   get   approved   by   uh   you   gotta   talk   to   uh   Satya   Nandella?
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>13:40</time>
      <p>
          No,   hopefully   not.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:41</time>
      <p>
          Hopefully   not.   We&#39;re   gonna   hand   uh   Mike   once   again   off   to   Ben,   our   replacement   for   Bryce.   And   uh   he&#39;s   doing   great   so   far.   It&#39;s   not   looking   good   for   Bryce.   Uh   here   you   go,   Ben.   Well,   let   me   tell   you   my   travels   in   the   last   month.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>13:53</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   was   Slovenia.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:58</time>
      <p>
          You&#39;re   gonna   be   editing   this,   right?   I   mean,   I   think   I&#39;m   gonna   leave   that   part   in.   That&#39;s   fantastic.   Let&#39;s   see   yes,   let&#39;s   at   the   beginning   of   each   uh   interview   we   should   roast   Bryce   a   little   bit.   I   love   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>14:07</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   so   Victor,   Victor   Chura.   You&#39;re   at   Microsoft,   right?   Yep,   that&#39;s   what   they   say.   And   so   what   kind   of   I   mean,   what&#39;s   your   position?   What   kind   of   C   are   you   doing   day   to   day?
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>14:19</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   in   the   ID   productivity   team   and   the   ID   experience   group,   and   I   work   on   tooling.   Uh   stuff   I&#39;ve   been   working   on   for   many,   many   years   now,   even   before   joining   Microsoft.   I&#39;ve   all   always   done   developer   tools,   SDKs,   libraries,   productivity   stuff   for   devs   mostly.   So   I   keep   doing   that.   And   helping   to   improve,   hopefully,   the   tool   I&#39;ve   been   using   for   uh   20   years   now.   Visual   Studio.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>14:46</time>
      <p>
          Nice.   And   uh   so   you   ha   you&#39;re   more   than   one   talk   or   just   one   talk?   You   had   a   talk   yesterday   here   and   then   some   tea,   which   was   about   optional,   expected,   functional   patterns.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>14:58</time>
      <p>
          Yep.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>14:58</time>
      <p>
          Can   you   tell   us   a   bit   about   that?
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>15:00</time>
      <p>
          Uh   so   it   was   um   one   of   the   talks   in   um   my   long   arch   on   um   I   don&#39;t   know,   spreading   the   love   for   functional   programming   patterns   and   uh   embracing   um   writing   more   clean   and   readable   and   uh   composable   code   in   and   borrowing   concepts   from   functional   programming   languages   and   uh   figuring   out   how   to   use   them   in   in   day-to-day   C.   And   uh   m   most   of   the   examples   were   centered   around   uh   monadic   extensions   for   uh   standard   optional   and   uh   patterns   on   in   using   the   new   standard   expected.   So   I   saw   interest   in   in   the   crowd.   I   had   uh   quite   a   few   questions   after   the   talk.   Uh   so   people   seem   to   be   interested   in   that   kind   of   stuff   and   that   makes   me   happy.   And   uh   hopefully   the   the   talk   was   well   received   and   uh   people   will   will   be   inspired   to   to   learn   more   about   these   kind   of   things.   Yeah.   I&#39;ve   done   quite   a   few   functional   programming   style   of   uh   talks,   so   um   yeah,   maybe   I   keep   doing   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>16:06</time>
      <p>
          Do   you   use   a   lot   of   functional   programming   in   your   day   job?
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>16:09</time>
      <p>
          Uh   not   a   lot,   but   uh   I   I   I   I   tend   to   be   in   inspired   by   that   style   of   of   thinking   and   uh   mostly   by   um   decomposing   problems   in   that   way   and   structuring   uh   uh   composing   uh   computation   and   structuring   um   uh   programs   in   in   that   way.   So   it   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   not   something   that   uh   resembles   a   lot   in   what   you   see   in   the   slides,   uh   but   definitely   changes   the   way   you   think   about   code.   So   it&#39;s   about   uh   shifting   the   way   you   you   approach   code   and   design.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>16:43</time>
      <p>
          I   agree   wholeheartedly.   That   is   my   experience   as   well,   I   would   say.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>16:47</time>
      <p>
          So   C   code   won&#39;t   look   like   Haskell   code.   Um   but   yeah,   Connor   does.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>16:53</time>
      <p>
          And   it   won&#39;t   look   like   APL   either,   Connor.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:55</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   it   definitely   won&#39;t   look   like   APL,   but   uh   the   ranger   stuff,   you   know,   the   range   of   stuff   is   getting   pretty   Haskelly   if   you   ask   me.   Yeah,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>17:03</time>
      <p>
          And   I   I   I   like   the   how   you   did   the   progressive   transition   from   Rust   to   C,   where   it   was   half   Rust,   half   uh   C   mixed.   And   and   when   when   he   kept   the   the   the   the   captures   in   the   lambdas   in   in   Rust   style   and   because   it   looked   better.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:19</time>
      <p>
          So   that   was   cheating.   That   was   don&#39;t   uh   don&#39;t   tell   anyone,   but   that   was   the   the   lunch   break   in   the   prior   talk   slot.   Uh   adding   all   of   those   slides   was   like   over   the   last   three   days,   and   uh   I   wasn&#39;t   sure   I&#39;d   have   time   to   get   all   those   animations,   but   it   just   it   looked   so   nice.   Uh   what&#39;s   the   name   for   enumerate?   And   then   I   think   Ben,   you   were   the   only   one   that   got   it   because   everyone   said   about   it.   It&#39;s   enumerate   in   23,   right?   Exactly,   yeah.   But   I   even   I   forget   about   it.   For   so   long,   I   have   been   using   Zip   with   IOTA   because   it   was   the   very,   very   last   uh   range   adapter   to   get   in   because   I   believe   it   was   quarantine,   had   been   working   for   so   long   to   change   the   API   a   little   bit,   but   then   they   just   decided   to   throw   it   out.   Like   they   had   something   that   was   working.   But   anyways,   it   went   in   at   like   the   11th   hour,   and   uh   it&#39;s   always   at   the   bottom   of   the   list   of   the   stuff   that   people   list   off.   Anyways.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>18:05</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   I&#39;ve   never   used   it,   I   just   know   about   it   from   somewhere   because   I   read   cppreference.com   every   day.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:12</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   meant   it&#39;s   a   weird   hobby.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>18:14</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   It&#39;s   a   perfectly   good   hobby   for   a   C   programmer.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:19</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   still   miffed   that   they   didn&#39;t   call   it   um   zip   with   I   actually   really   wanted   like   zip   with   iota,   but   Scala   calls   it   zipwith   index,   which   I   actually   I   was   having   this   debate   with   someone   yesterday   that   they   said,   oh   but   enumerate&#39;s   the   right   word   for   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>18:33</time>
      <p>
          And   I   was   like,   uh   I   think   index   is   more   explicit.   I   mean   it&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   more   honest   in   in   what   it   does.   Whereas   enumerate   if   you   kind   of   have   to   know   what   it   does.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>18:44</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   mean   other   languages,   there   are   some   other   languages   that   call   it   enumerate,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:48</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   definitely   Python   is   the   most   popular,   Rust   calls   theirs   enumerate   as   well,   so   and   I   think   Rust   kind   of   borrowed   it   from,   but   I   think   the   most   common   it&#39;s   not   like   filter   or   map   where   there&#39;s   almost   you   know   an   universal   agreement   on   what   it&#39;s   called.   Yeah,   except   for   C   when   it   comes   to   map.   Uh   that   was   also   the   other   joke   of   uh   enumerate&#39;s   enumerate,   filters   filter,   map   is   transform.   But   I   think   enumerate   is   the   most   common,   and   then   it&#39;s   kind   of   across   the   board.   It&#39;s   either   enumerate   or   something   kind   of   that   every   language   chooses   something   else.   Uh   but   you   know,   what   can   you   do?   Uh   you   know,   we&#39;ll   learn   to   love   it.   I   I   think   it&#39;s   odd   though   that   enumerate   doesn&#39;t   have   a   overload   that   takes   a   starting   value   because   the   spelling   of   it   sometimes   is   almost   shorter   because   you   have   to   do   a   map   with   a   plus   one.   It&#39;s   almost   easier   to   just   zip   with   IOTA,   because   IOTA   has   a   overload   that   can   take   the   exactly.   I   find   that   just   interesting   as   like   the   mental   arithmetic   of   like   enumerates   only   useful   when   really   you   want   zero   or   you&#39;re   gonna   be   calling   a   map   right   afterwards.   Anyways,   it&#39;s   uh   check   it   out   and   see   plus   plus   twenty-three   folks.   It&#39;s   uh   good   stuff   is   coming.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>19:55</time>
      <p>
          Speaking   of   good   stuff,   uh   yeah,   let   me   do   interviewer   now.   So   uh   I&#39;m   curious,   uh   I   I   saw   a   lot   of   folks   approach   you   after   your   your   presentation   today,   and   uh   I   was   curious   uh   how   did   they   um   I   don&#39;t   know   embrace   the   combinators   and   and   all   that   uh   good   stuff   that   you   showed?   Like   uh   did   did   you   get   a   lot   of   questions   around   um   and   figuring   out   learning,   understanding   that   kind   of   code   when   you   see   it   for   the   first   time?   Like   what   was   the   reaction?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:24</time>
      <p>
          I   really   think   this   is   the   inflection   point   for   array   languages.   I   can   really   see   BQN   and   APL   entering   the   top   twenty   languages,   I   think,   after   this.   No,   I&#39;m   just   kidding.   Uh   it   uh   What   are   you   doing?   I   I   think   there&#39;s   definitely   maybe   at   this   conference   it&#39;s   more   it   piques   people&#39;s   curiosity.   I   mean   Tristan,   who   we&#39;re   about   to   talk   to   I   mean   Tristan,   you   can   come   up   here.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>20:47</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;ll   uh   Yeah,   Tristan,   come   on   over.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:49</time>
      <p>
          Well,   uh   I&#39;ll   finish   answering   uh   Victor&#39;s   uh   question   in   a   second.   What   but   uh   Tristan   asked   a   question   or   not   asked   a   question,   but   made   a   comment   how   he   s   he   sees   how   introducing   maybe   these   combinators   not   in   the   same   library,   but   like   how   it   could   increase   the   flexibility   of   a   ranges-like   or   flux-like   library.   And   more   interestingly   is   that   I   gave   this   same   talk   at   Lambda   Days   in   Poland   back   in   June   a   month   ago.   Oh,   that&#39;s   a   different.   And   that   was   a   functional   crowd,   and   I   heard   heard   from   maybe   not   a   double-digit   number   of   people,   but   like   I   had   on   at   the   end   of   my   talk   sort   of   put   the   uh   URLs   for   the   BQM   pad   and   try   APL,   and   a   bunch   of   folks   had   like   immediately   gone.   But   I   think   they   are   so   much   more   ready   because   they&#39;re   already   in   Haskell   or   Scala   or   Clojure.   So,   you   know,   APL   and   BQN,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   a   much   smaller   step.   It&#39;s   still   a   big   step,   but   they   see   that   and   they&#39;re   like,   Yeah,   oh   cool,   I   want   to   take   it   for   a   spin.   Um   because   I   I   think   also   if   they&#39;re   coming   from   Haskell,   they&#39;re   already   familiar   with   a   lot   of   these   ideas,   so   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   less   of   a   mental   jump.   But   I   think   there&#39;s   definitely   it   piques   people&#39;s   curiosity.   I   I   don&#39;t   think   folks   are   gonna   be   switching   to   a   new   language.   Anyways,   let&#39;s   bring   Tristan   into   the   conversation.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>21:55</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I&#39;ll   just   do   a   quick   intro   for   Tristan.   Uh   friend   of   this   podcast,   all   Tristan   Brindel,   C   trainer,   based   in   London,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:05</time>
      <p>
          All   correct.   Yes.   Hello.   And   I   just   realized   this   is   the   in-person   trio   that   we   we   just   did   at   a   podcast   interview   of   several   episodes,   may   have   been   two   months   at   this   point   since   we   released   it.   We   did   it   on   Zoom,   and   now   here   we   are,   plus   Victor.   And   Victor,   where   are   you   based   out   of?
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>22:23</time>
      <p>
          Um   I&#39;m   in   Prague   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:24</time>
      <p>
          So   look   at   that.   We&#39;re   we&#39;re   we&#39;re   global   here,   you   know?   We   got   a   Canadian,   someone   in   America,   someone   in   the   UK,   someone   in   Prague.   Awesome.
      </p>

        <cite>Tristan Brindle</cite>
      <time>22:32</time>
      <p>
          So   tell   us   about   the   conference,   Tristan.   The   conference   is   awesome.   So   uh   we&#39;re   recording   this   at   the   end   of   the   second   day.   Uh   we&#39;re   just   about   to   have   the   lightning   talks.   It&#39;s   been   honestly   a   really,   really   fantastic   experience   so   far.   Uh   so   I   haven&#39;t   given   my   talk   yet,   that&#39;s   coming   tomorrow.   Uh   hopefully   that&#39;s   gonna   go   well.   Uh   but   so   far   the   conference   has   been   great.   And   um   especially   the   talks   by   uh   by   Ben   and   Connor.   Um   I&#39;m   not   just   saying   that   because   Ben&#39;s   holding   the   microphone.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>22:58</time>
      <p>
          No,   beat   your   talk   for   tomorrow.
      </p>

        <cite>Tristan Brindle</cite>
      <time>23:00</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   what&#39;s   your   talk   about   tomorrow?   So   my   talk   tomorrow   is   uh   it&#39;s   kind   of   uh   well,   it&#39;s   about   my   flux   library   that   uh   long   time   listeners   of   ADSP   will   already   be   familiar   with.   Um   so   it&#39;s   about   kind   of   the   motivation,   why   I   wrote   this   new   library,   what   I&#39;m   intending,   what   the   goals   are,   and   then   some   sort   of   uh   usage   examples   and   some   information   about   how   you   can   use   it   and   the   cool   things   you   can   do.   Great,   so   practical   advice.   Well,   getting   started   advice,   I   guess.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:30</time>
      <p>
          Anecdotally,   we   just   interviewed   you   very   briefly.   You   got   you   got   listed   in   the   guests   interviewed,   but   your   interview   was   all   of   about   30   seconds   at   C   on   C,   which   was   two   or   three   weeks   ago   now.   And   you   gave   the   same   talk,   but   since   then,   I&#39;m   not   sure   how   many   other   talks,   if   you   did   a   tally,   mentioned   or   showed   flux   code   in   their   talks.   I   think   it   might   have   been   zero   other   than   yours,   but   now   here   we   are,   less   than   a   month   later,   and   you&#39;ve   had   two   talks   at   this   conference   outside   of   your   own   that   you   haven&#39;t   given   yet   that   have   mentioned   flux.   I   don&#39;t   know   if   it&#39;s   gonna   be   an   aeroth   has   what,   four?   Three,   three?   Well   what   was   the   third   one?
      </p>

        <cite>Tristan Brindle</cite>
      <time>24:06</time>
      <p>
          Uh   Timor,   apparently,   uh   yesterday.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:08</time>
      <p>
          Uh   so   it   was   yeah,   Victor&#39;s   was   the   first.   It   sounds   like   Timur   in   his   talk   showed   some   flux   code.
      </p>

        <cite>Tristan Brindle</cite>
      <time>24:13</time>
      <p>
          So   that&#39;s   he   mentioned   it.   He   didn&#39;t   show   flux   code.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:16</time>
      <p>
          That   still   counts.   That&#39;s   zero   to   three.   Is   it   gonna   be   arithmetic?   Is   it   gonna   be   geometric?
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>24:20</time>
      <p>
          This   is   what   happens   at   conferences,   right?   You   come   and   then   and   then   you&#39;ve   got   if   you&#39;re   a   speaker,   you&#39;ve   got   a   a   talk   that   you&#39;re   giving,   and   and   you   watch   talks,   and   then   things   things   occur   to   you,   and   you   sort   of   react   to   the   talks   as   you   go   through   the   conference.   It   happens   all   the   time.   Yep.   So   yeah.   Flux   is   uh   spreading   like   wildfire.   Flux   is   an   idea   whose   time   has   come.
      </p>

        <cite>Tristan Brindle</cite>
      <time>24:42</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I   mean,   I   think   so.   I   think   it&#39;s   a   great   idea.   I   hope   uh   I   can   persuade   other   people   of   that   as   well.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:48</time>
      <p>
          Cool.   Alright,   I   mean   uh   should   we   ask?   We&#39;ve   got   we   got   Victor,   we   got   Tristan,   should   we   ask   anything   else   while   uh   favorite   talks   or   uh   you   know   what   should   what   should   uh   the   listeners   of   the   podcast   do   after   listening   to   this   episode?
      </p>

        <cite>Tristan Brindle</cite>
      <time>25:01</time>
      <p>
          Um   again,   I&#39;m   gonna   butter   up   Ben   because   he&#39;s   standing   right   next   to   me,   but   uh   generally   your   your   keynote   today   that   was   uh   really,   really   excellent   talk.   Um   other   sessions,   I   mean   uh   Kate&#39;s   keynote   was   was   fantastic.   You   don&#39;t   really   have   to   say   that,   you   could   just   say,   well,   Kate   Gregory   Gregory   J   the   keynote.   Um   I   really   I   mean   I   I&#39;m   just   I   really   enjoyed   Victor&#39;s   talk,   I   really   enjoyed   Connor&#39;s   talk.   You   know,   it&#39;s   just   been   a   great   experience   all   around.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>25:28</time>
      <p>
          I   agree.   Victor,   any   final   words?   Um   so   um   most   mo   mind-blowing   talk   was   combinators,   yeah.   Uh   unsurprisingly,   yeah.   I&#39;m   still   I&#39;m   still   gonna   digest   that   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>25:41</time>
      <p>
          Uh   and   uh   So   on   that   one,   I&#39;m   not   should   I   be   thinking   about   birds?   Should   I   be   thinking   about   letters?   How   should   I   how   form   a   coherent   view   of   combinators,   Connor?   You   should   be   thinking   of   composition   patterns.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>25:55</time>
      <p>
          Hooks   hooks?
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>25:56</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   but   uh   what   name   should   I   use?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>25:59</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   thinking   I&#39;m   thinking   I&#39;ll   just   go   with   birds.   I   mean,   birds   is   fine.   I   ref   like   the   strongest   semantic   attachment   of   this   concept   to   a   word   that   I   have   is   combinators,   specifically   the   combinatory   logic   combinators   that   I   showed   in   that   Venn   diagram.   Uh   but   birds   is   fine,   composition   patterns   is   fine.   Honestly,   like   the   birds,   the   letters,   they&#39;re   all   attached,   and   it&#39;s   more   just   the   pattern   of   like,   I   didn&#39;t   mention   this   in   the   talk,   but   like   think   if   you   have   a   binary   function   and   a   unary   function.   A   function   that   takes   two   arguments   and   a   function   that   takes   one   argument.   How   many   different   ways   can   you   compose   those?   Is   this   like   a   Catalan   number   problem?   No,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   not   really   a   catalan.   It&#39;s   just   like   start   to   think   like   we   covered   the   B1,   the   blackbird,   which   is   apply   the   binary   first   and   then   pass   that   to   the   unary.   The   psi   combinator   is   apply   the   unary   twice   to   each   argument   and   then   pass   the   results   of   those   to   the   binary.   The   S   combinator   is   apply   the   unary   to   the   second   argument,   but   leave   the   first   argument   alone.   The   sigma   is   the   reverse   of   that,   apply   the   unary   to   the   first   argument.   Okay.   But   like   So   you   just   like   combinatorially   explore   the   space   there,   and   and   each   one   is   a   different   combinator.   And   what&#39;s   what&#39;s   interesting   is   like   the   what   was   the   first   time   I   came   across   it   where   the   S   is   reversed,   where   you&#39;re   applying   the   unary   function   to   the   first   argument   instead   of   the   second,   the   second   one   is   the   S   combinator.   It&#39;s   in   the   SKI   combinatory   logic.   But   like   I   hadn&#39;t   seen   anywhere   where   it   was   applied   to   the   first   until   Marshall   Lockbaum&#39;s   uh   I   programming   language,   which   he   did   in   2012,   where   they   call   S   in   J   hook,   and   then   he   implemented   what   he   called   the   back   hook,   which   is   basically   just   that   missing   combinator,   which   is   what   it   doesn&#39;t   have   a   letter,   so   I   made   one   up   and   I   just   called   it   sigma,   because   like   there   were   some   Greek   letters,   and   so   S   has   a   the   corollary   uh   sigma,   and   then   D,   which   I   never   explained,   has   a   corollary   delta.   But   like,   just   this   like   if   you   start   to   play   this   game   of   like   it&#39;s   the   same   thing   with   algorithms   when   you   have   like   find,   which   takes   a   value,   find   if,   which   takes   a   unary   predicate,   adjacent   find,   which   takes   a   binary   predicate,   it&#39;s   like   there   are   certain   algorithms   that   like   are   missing   the   unary   predicate   version.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>28:00</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   like   the   standard   model   in   in   particle   physics,   like   you   you   anticipate   new   combinators   based   on   symmetries   and   missing   things.   Exactly.   Yeah,   like   the   the   arrow   can   point   the   other   way,   or   saying   new   elements,   yeah,   new   new   particles.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>28:14</time>
      <p>
          Exactly,   the   periodic   table.   Was   that   you   did   you   say   that   earlier?   It&#39;s   like   a   periodic   table   where   originally   there   were   gaps,   but   you   infer   the   existence.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>28:21</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   this   uh   I   we   were   having   this   a   similar   conversation   yesterday   about   this   book,   or   I   I   was   the   one   that   mentioned   the   book   called   Mind   and   Motion   by   Barbara   Toversky,   which   she   makes   this   uh   sort   of   push   for   this   idea   that   like   thought   is   not   based   on   language   like   Noam   Chomsky   says,   but   it&#39;s   based   on   visualizations.   And   like   she   described   a   couple   things   of   like   taking   this   text   or   you   know,   if   if   it&#39;s   these   combinators,   but   then   you   you   visualize   it,   you   put   it   in   this   kind   of   hierarchy,   and   then   you   see   missing   gaps.   And   it&#39;s   like,   I   would   never   have   seen   that   just   by   looking   at   the   lambda   definitions   and   saying,   oh   S,   like,   where&#39;s   the   where&#39;s   the   version   of   S   that   has   it   over   here?   But   like   you   see   this   graph   that&#39;s   missing   like   a   node,   and   then   you&#39;re   like,   shouldn&#39;t   something   be   there?   And   then   you&#39;re   just   like   reverse   engineering   what&#39;s   missing.
      </p>

        <cite>Tristan Brindle</cite>
      <time>29:03</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   really   so   one   of   the   takeaways   I   I   got   from   your   talk   was   that   it&#39;s   a   bit   like   if   you   start   off   just   write   writing   for   loops,   right?   Um   and   then   you   kind   of   get   to   recognize   the   patterns   of,   oh,   hang   on,   this   thing   is   actually   a   find   if,   or   this   thing   is   a   count   if,   or   that,   you   know,   that&#39;s   a   rotate.   And   then   you   you   start   to   recognize,   hang   on,   that&#39;s   actually   what   I&#39;m   doing.   And   I   think   it&#39;s   probably   the   same   thing   with   these   combinators,   that   you   know,   you   just   write   the   lambda   and   it   does   the   right   thing,   but   then   you   do   it   enough   and   you   start   to   recognize   the   patterns   of,   hey,   no,   I&#39;m   actually   I&#39;m   composing   these   functions   in   this   way.
      </p>

        <cite>Victor Cuira</cite>
      <time>29:37</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   and   and   uh   the   hidden   combinators   are   an   interesting   thing   where   you   have   uh   algorithms   like   uh   inner   product   and   uh   and   similar   things   where   you   don&#39;t   actually   see   it,   but   it&#39;s   part   of   how   it&#39;s   constructed,   it&#39;s   part   of   you   know   how   in   how   you   use   it.   So   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   not   visible.   You   have   to   understand   and   to   identify   the   pattern.   So   it&#39;s   it   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   hidden,   it&#39;s   not   visible.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   not   a   function   or   a   macro   that   you   see   there   like   in   in   your   face.   You   have   to   understand   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>30:04</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   got   a   final   question   for   you,   Conrad.   Do   you   have   a   copy   of   of   the   book?   Uh   Combinatory   Logic,   volume   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:11</time>
      <p>
          It   is   not   in   print,   and   it   is   actually   very   hard   to   find   on   the   internet.   However,   I   do   have   not   a   legally   obtained   copy   because   my   eyes   go   sideways,   of   the   first   volume.   I   have   both   a   PDF   version   and   some   other   I   have   no   idea   what   the   dot   uh   sort   of   it&#39;s   not   Moby,   but   it&#39;s   something.   Uh   so   I   do   have   a   copy.   If   you   look   hard   enough,   it   is   online,   and   uh   that&#39;s   actually   where   like   I   never   found   an   article   that   mentioned   the   elementary   combinators,   and   I   haven&#39;t   read   the   text   in   full   because   it&#39;s   very   dense,   but   I   skimmed   through   it,   and   in   chapter   five,   that&#39;s   when   they   actually   get   to   like   introducing   the   different   combinators,   and   there&#39;s   this   great   section   where   you   know   it   starts   introducing   them,   and   it&#39;s   like   you   could   imagine   some   like   godlike   voice   saying,   and   then   there   was   the   elementary   identificator.   We   started   with   I,   and   then   it   goes   on   like   paragraph   to   paragraph,   and   I&#39;m   reading   this,   just   being   like,   oh   my   goodness,   like   like   this   is   fantastic.   I   mean,   probably   other   people   would   be   like,   what   is   he   talking   about?   But   like   for   me   personally,   you   know,   it&#39;s   probably   the   similar   when   you&#39;re   doing   your   calendar   research   and   you   stumble   across   some   factoid   and   you&#39;re   just   like,   oh,   this   is   great,   you   know,   it&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   what   we   do   for   fun.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>31:14</time>
      <p>
          We   love   it,   we   we   absolutely   love   it.   Um   I   gotta   say,   the   combinator   that   I   miss   most   is   Kestrel.   I   find   myself   needing   that   all   the   time,   especially   in   in   a   type-based   programming.   Kestrel   is   the   K   combinator,   correct?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:30</time>
      <p>
          And   the   amp.   Yeah,   const   in   Haskell.   Yeah.   That   is   uh   Yeah,   I   I   mean   when   I   first   saw   I   think   I   said   that   in   the   talk,   I   and   K,   my   first   thoughts   were   both   of   these   is   like   this   is   stupid.   Like   who   needs   a   function   that   returns   its   argument   and   then   K   is   just   throwing   one   away   and   keeping   the   other   like   who   needs   that?
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>31:45</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   you   don&#39;t   realize   the   need   for   it   when   you   first   see   it   cold   until   you   actually   start   using   combinators   and   you   figure   it&#39;s   incredibly   valuable.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:53</time>
      <p>
          They   are   very,   very   useful   and   it   only   becomes   uh   apparent   once   you,   like   he&#39;s   like   Tristan   was   saying,   like   once   you   start   to   name   these   or   just   recognize   these   patterns,   they&#39;re   all   over   the   place.   And   like   my   I   didn&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   think   I   actually   have   said   it   in   the   talk,   but   like   my   one   of   my   sort   of   evolutions   of   my   thought   or   like   I   I   I   my   assertion   is   that   like   these   composition   patterns   are   like   more   fundamental   than   like   binary   mathematical   operations.   Like   we   learn   symbols   for   plus,   symbols   for   time,   symbol   for   divide   and   minus,   and   then   we   stop   there   and   we   don&#39;t   do   anything   for   min   and   max   except   if   you   learn   APL   or   BQN   or   J.   But   but   like   these   things   they   apply   to   to   you   know   the   the   space   of   math   and   numbers,   but   not   really   outside   of   that,   whereas   composition   applies   to   every   kind   of   function.   Like   passing   an   argument,   you   know,   the   same   argument   twice,   that   that   applies,   there&#39;s   no   like   domain   that   that&#39;s   limited   to,   right?   Like   any   function   you   can   do   that   with.   And,   you   know,   maybe   people   prefer   their   parentheses   and   stuff,   but   like   once   you   start   to   see   it,   it&#39;s   like   it&#39;s   like   when   you   see   something   in   another   language   and   then   you   come   back   to   C   ⁇   and   you   miss   it.   Like   when   I   am   coding   without   these   little   patterns,   it   it   breaks   my   heart.   Especially   too,   even   in   Haskell,   like   it   you   gotta   use   four   characters,   five   characters   for   some   of   these   things.   Like   it   as   a   symbol   symbol   is   it&#39;s   massive.   Like   the   fact   that   W   or   C,   like   flip   or   uh   join,   are   just   a   single   character   really   influences   the   way   that   you   will   reach   for   these   things.   Cause   it&#39;s   because   it&#39;s   just   one   thing,   it&#39;s   just   one   character.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>33:22</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   mean   in   Haskell,   I&#39;m   I   come   from   Haskell   originally   before,   you   know,   you   came   from   Combinators   to   this,   I   came   from   Haskell   to   this,   and   and   so   I   know   them   as   flip   and   const   and   and   join,   as   you   say.   Um   so   now   I&#39;ve   got   to   rewire   my   brain   to   think   about   the   birds   instead.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>33:39</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   being   a   terrible   host   now   because   Victor   asked   a   question   and   then   you   know,   it&#39;s   like   uh   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>33:44</time>
      <p>
          Well,   also,   I   don&#39;t   know   how   long   you   wanted   to   go   with   this   recording   or   when   the   lightning   talks   are.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>33:49</time>
      <p>
          Uh   Lightning   Talks   are   in   17   minutes,   so   we&#39;ll   probably   do   10   more   minutes,   but   we&#39;ll   we&#39;ll   we&#39;ll   thank   Tristan   and   Victor   and   we   will   pivot   to   To   Andreas.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>33:58</time>
      <p>
          Andreas   Weiss.   Uh   you   work   at   Woven   Planet.   Thank   you,   Tristan.   Thank   you,   Victor.   Thanks,   thanks,   Victor.   Thanks,   Tristan.   I   I&#39;m   standing   in   for   Bryce   on   the   podcast.   Oh   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>34:08</time>
      <p>
          So   I&#39;m   Oh   any   anything   bad   or   any   any   uh   you   know   you   want   to   say   anything   bad   or   how   great   of   a   co-host   Ben   is,   would   you   like   to   hear   Ben   Moore   as   a   co-host?
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>34:16</time>
      <p>
          Uh   yeah,   of   course,   of   course,   like   way   way   better,   way   better.   Like   your   subscriptions   will   double   at   least.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>34:22</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   Bryce,   if   that&#39;s   the   truth,   we   might   need   to   see   some   numbers,   but   if   that&#39;s   the   truth,   let&#39;s   hope   if   this   one   gets   twice   as   many   views   as   we   do   regularly,   we   might   have   to   we   might   have   to   consider   this.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>34:34</time>
      <p>
          So,   Andres,   you   gave   a   talk   here   yesterday.   Can   you   tell   us   about   it?
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>34:38</time>
      <p>
          Um   yeah,   I   was   uh   talking   about   um   interface   design,   the   the   famous   Scott   Myers   guideline,   make   your   interfaces   easy   to   use   correctly,   hard   to   use   incorrectly,   and   I   was   um   demonstrating   like   some   techniques   how   you   can   use   the   type   system   to   make   that   work   for   you.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>34:56</time>
      <p>
          Very   nice.   Something   very   close   to   my   own   heart.   What   what   C   standard   were   you   targeting   with   that   talk?
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>35:02</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   a   good   question.   Um   I   think   I&#39;ve   had   mostly   stuff   that   should   work   with   17.   I   think   the   only   thing   from   20   that   I   had   in   there   was   the   uh   designated   initializers.   Okay,   which   is   a   feature   that   that   I   like   very   much,   but   that   that   was   just   one   example.   So   most   of   the   stuff   should   work   with   not   quite   that   recent   standards   as   well.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>35:23</time>
      <p>
          Great,   great.   Yes,   I   think   I   mean   I   think   pretty   much   most   people   are   close   to   17,   if   not   on   17.   A   lot   of   a   lot   of   folks   I   meet   at   the   conferences   are   now.   Um   a   lot   of   folks   are   wanting   to   get   to   20.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>35:36</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I&#39;m   on   C23,   but   we   will   we   will   link   that&#39;s   because   I&#39;m   in   research.   I   mean,   technically,   I&#39;m   on   C23   when   it   suits   me,   and   then   circle   when   it   when   C23   doesn&#39;t   suit   me.   But   we   will   leave   a   link   in   the   show   notes   to   I   think   it&#39;s   the   there&#39;s   a   JetBrains   one.   And   is   there   a   separate   ISO   C   or   like   C   foundation?   JetBrain   survey   that   uh   does   the   actual   analysis.   And   I   think   probably   the   median   is   17,   C17.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>36:02</time>
      <p>
          I   think   Yeah,   I   think   so.   Um   so   how&#39;s   the   conference   in   general?   Any   any   favorite   talks?
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>36:08</time>
      <p>
          Uh   oh   yeah,   it&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   very   nice.   It&#39;s   my   first   time   in   Toronto   actually.   Um   I   really   like   Kate&#39;s   keynote.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>36:14</time>
      <p>
          Like   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   that   was   great.
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>36:15</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   mean   yeah,   that   that   that&#39;s   the   kind   of   talks.   Like   she   she   really   pulls   that   off   like   like   no   other.   So   yeah,   I   I   really   enjoyed   that   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>36:25</time>
      <p>
          Great.   Well,   we&#39;ve   got   lightning   talks   tonight.   Uh   are   you   giving   a   lightning   talk?
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>36:30</time>
      <p>
          Oh   yeah,   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   giving   a   lightning   talk,   and   my   lightning   talk   has   more   slides   than   my   main   talk,   so   that&#39;s   going   to   be   interesting.   How   many   slides?   60.   60?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>36:38</time>
      <p>
          There   you   go,   you   got   six   minutes.   Are   you   are   you   kidding?   Your   lightning   talk   has   sixty   slides?   Is   that   like   is   that   like   55   slides   of   animation   or   something?
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>36:49</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   some   animation   in   there   and   some   stuff   that   you&#39;re   not   supposed   to   read.   It&#39;s   only   there   for   the   effect.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>36:55</time>
      <p>
          So   I&#39;m   I   am   very   intrigued.   What   give   us   a   little   teaser?   I   mean   the   the   lightning   talks   will   be   recorded   and   will   be   online   as   well   at   some   point,   but   uh   for   the   listener,   uh   give   them   a   little   and   us   also   for   us   because   we&#39;re   about   to   watch   them,   uh   give   us   a   little   teaser   of   what   we   can   expect.
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>37:11</time>
      <p>
          Um   yes,   it&#39;s   about   uh   complexity,   runtime   complexity   analysis,   how   you   do   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>37:18</time>
      <p>
          Hmm,   interesting.   I   support   the   notion   of   having   slides   for   effect   and   not   talking   about   them   at   all.   I   like   to   do   that   in   some   of   my   talks   occasionally.   I   mean   uh   that   is   six   minutes   is   what,   360   seconds?   Yeah,   uh   well,   lightning   talks   to   five   minutes.   If   you   could   stretch   I   just   went   to   six   minutes   because   you   said   sixty   slides,   but   but   yes.   Right.   I   mean   good   luck.   That&#39;s   five   seconds   a   slide   then.
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>37:45</time>
      <p>
          Right,   yeah.   I   I   did   I   did   a   couple   I   did   a   couple   of   test   runs.   Like   my   my   best   one   I   was   30   seconds   under,   or   the   worst   one   I   was   thirty   seconds   over,   so   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   going   to   be   right   in   the   ballpark   there.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>37:56</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   we&#39;re   oh,   we&#39;re   gonna   see   Tony   for   the   first   time   tonight.   If   he&#39;s   he&#39;s   hosting   Lightning   Talks,   right?   This   is   true.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>38:03</time>
      <p>
          For   folks   that   have   not   met   Tony   Van   Eerd   in   person,   he   is   local   to   Ontario,   not   exactly   Toronto.   He   lives   outside,   I   believe,   in   Kitchener,   which   is   just   outside   Waterloo.   If   folks,   if   folks   have   seen   the   new   BlackBerry   movie,   that&#39;s   where   that   takes   place,   Kitchener,   Waterloo.   And   he   famously   does   not   make   any   appearances   until   after   his   talk   because   he&#39;s   holed   up   in   his   hotel   working   on   his   slides.   I   think   actually   he&#39;s   even   maybe   been   feeling   a   bit   under   the   weather.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>38:27</time>
      <p>
          He&#39;s   been   unwell,   I   think,   the   last   couple   of   days.   So   I   hope   he&#39;s   feeling   well   again   and   able   to   do   lightning   talks   tonight.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>38:32</time>
      <p>
          So   it&#39;ll   be   a   good   sign   if   he&#39;s   hosting   the   lightning   talks,   because   that   means   he&#39;s   feeling   well   enough   uh   to   host   them.   But   if   we   don&#39;t   see   him   tonight,   we&#39;re   we&#39;re   hopefully   gonna   see   him   tomorrow,   and   then   uh   hopefully   we&#39;ll   be   able   to   grab   dinner   with   him   afterwards   because   we&#39;re   on   day   two,   tomorrow&#39;s   day   three,   and   then   the   conference   wraps,   so   it&#39;s   gonna   be   a   a   short,   a   short   debut   uh   from   from   Tony.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>38:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   Um   anything   to   to   say   more,   Andre   Andreas,   or   is   that   it?   Also   tell   the   listeners   uh   where   are   you   based   out   of   and   uh   you   know   how&#39;d   you   get   here?
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>39:02</time>
      <p>
          Oh   yeah,   uh   I   mean   we   know   we   took   the   plane   probably.   Yeah.   Swam.   Yeah,   so   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   currently   still   based   in   Munich,   Germany.   So   um   also   still   uh   helping   with   running   the   user   group   there   for   C.   Um   and   yeah,   I   I   just   flew   in   first   first   time   flying   into   Canada   and   I&#39;m   having   a   blast.   It&#39;s   a   great   conference.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>39:22</time>
      <p>
          Cool.   Did   you   have   any   did   you   have   any   travel   problems?   There   were   several   folks   who   had   connection   problems   through   New   York.
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>39:28</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   no,   I   I   had   a   direct   flight,   so   uh   fortunately   I   was   spared   by   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>39:32</time>
      <p>
          Alright.   And   that&#39;s   enough   about   travel.   Yeah,   enough   about   travel.   If   Bryce   isn&#39;t   here,   we&#39;re   nipping   that   in   the   bud.   And   I   guess   so   if   you&#39;re   in   Germany,   last   question.   I   assume   probably   on   your   horizon   is   the   Meeting   C   conference,   because   that&#39;s   just   a   stone&#39;s   throwaway   in   Berlin.   Uh   are   you   gonna   be   there   and   are   you   gonna   be   speaking?
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>39:50</time>
      <p>
          Uh,   unfortunately   not   this   year.   So   it&#39;s   um   they   they   had   to   um   usually   the   the   conference   was   always   in   the   end   of   the   week,   and   this   year   they   had   to   put   it   in   the   beginning   of   the   week,   and   now   it   actually   overlaps   with   the   ISO   meeting   in   Kona.   Oh   and   because   of   the   huge   time   shift   from   Kona,   it&#39;s   basically   impossible   to   get   there   in   time   unless   you   leave   the   ISO   meeting   early.   So   I   probably   won&#39;t   be   able   to   make   it.   I   didn&#39;t   submit   any   talks   because   of   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>40:16</time>
      <p>
          Interesting,   interesting.   And   so   that   means,   well,   I   guess   the   CFP,   I   was   gonna   say   this   would   be   a   great   opportunity   if   there&#39;s   some   new   speakers,   because   probably   it&#39;s   gonna   take   out   of   the   rotation   a   bunch   of   speakers,   but   probably   the   CFP   is   closed   long   by   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>40:29</time>
      <p>
          So   uh   just   closed.   They   just   started   the   the   voting   on   the   talks   uh   last   week.   So   yeah,   CFP   is   closed.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>40:36</time>
      <p>
          Well,   hopefully,   hopefully   we&#39;ll   get   to   see   some   new   speakers   at   the   conference,   because   yeah,   if   it   if   it   collides   with   the   committee   meeting,   like   there&#39;s   I   don&#39;t   know   what   the   overlap   is,   but   it&#39;s   definitely   like   25%   or   50%   of   uh   committee   members   uh   have   also   given   a   talk   at   some   point   in   time.   So   all   right.   Is   that   a   is   that   a   wrap   for   now?   That&#39;s   a   wrap   for   now.   We&#39;ll   be   back   on   day   three.   We&#39;ve   got   two   people   lined   up.   We   definitely   wanted   to   get   Kate,   who&#39;s   been   mentioned,   and   Jessica,   who&#39;s   given   the   keynote   tomorrow   morning.   I   think   they&#39;re   I   think   we   mentioned   earlier,   they&#39;re   both   giving   uh   lightning   talks   uh   alongside   Andreas   here.   So   we&#39;re   gonna   get   excited   for   those.   And   I   mean   the   listener,   probably   this   is   gonna   be   mid-episode,   so   they&#39;re   gonna   snap   of   the   fingers   and   they&#39;re   listening   to   Kate   right   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Ben Deane</cite>
      <time>41:18</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   you   get   you   know,   we   have   to   wait   another   12,   18   hours,   and   it&#39;s   coming   right   up   for   you.   Thanks,   Andreas.
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>41:25</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   yeah,   thank   you   for   having   me.   Awesome.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>41:27</time>
      <p>
          Be   sure   to   check   these   show   notes   either   in   your   podcast   app   or   at   adspthepodcast.com   for   links   to   any   of   the   topics   or   talks   that   we   talked   about   in   today&#39;s   episode,   as   well   as   a   link   to   a   GitHub   discussion   where   you   can   leave   comments,   thoughts,   or   questions.   Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>

        <cite>Andreas Weis</cite>
      <time>41:43</time>
      <p>
          Low   quality,   high   quality,   that   is   the   tagline   of   our   podcast.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>41:49</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   not   the   tagline,   our   tagline   is   chaos   with   sprinkles   of   information.
      </p>