

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          I   was   just   corrected   that   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   definitely   not   Pascal,   it&#39;s   Pascal.   And   uh   I   got   I   got   called   out   on   the   last   episode   uh   for   mispronouncing   that.   And   we   had   homemade   apricot,   is   that   apricot?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>0:12</time>
      <p>
          Apricot   ice   cream,   yes.   Apricot   ice   cream,   and   it   was   divine.   I   was   in   Rwanda   for   six   weeks   and   I   wrote   this.   What   happened   was   the   company   that   we   had   connections   to,   they   they   ran   all   the   ATMs   in   the   country,   and   that   and   I   started   doing   it   in   Java,   and   it   was   just   so   awful.   And   then   um   my   boss   of   the   times   suggested   that   I   do   it   in   Ruby,   and   that   was   a   fantastic   decision   because   Ruby   is   great   for   string   handling.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:52</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   152,   recorded   on   October   18th,   2023.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   interview   Jonathan   O&#39;Connor   and   chat   with   him   about   his   journey   from   C   to   Jenni   to   Ruby   and   back   to   C,   as   well   as   his   programming   experience   with   Ruby   and   Rwanda,   Quines,   and   more.   Let   us   introduce   our   guest   first.   Let   me   hop   over   because   I   actually   went   and   found.   I   went   and   found   Mr.   Jonathan   O&#39;Connor&#39;s   bio   from   Meeting   C,   which   is   a   conference   I   know   that   you&#39;ve   given   a   couple   different   talks   at,   I   believe.   This   one   is   uh   entitled   Hands   on   C20   Ranges,   Code   Routines,   Concepts,   and   Modules.   And   the   bio   No,   that&#39;s   not   me.   No?   Oh   no,   wait.   Correction.   That   is   a   very   poorly   placed   advertisement   right   on   top   uh   of   your   your   uh   profile   picture   and   your   name.   And   uh   and   then   in   very   small,   I   guess   it&#39;s   the   same   font   as   the   font   size   as   the   bio.   It   says   Tox   Colon   Alice&#39;s   Adventures   in   Template   Land.   But   I   guess   this   is   an   advertisement   for   a   book,   which   I   mean   I&#39;m   pretty   sure   it&#39;s   very   unintentional   on   Jens&#39;s   part,   the   organizer   of   the   conference   and   the   designer   of   the   website.   I&#39;m   actually,   I   gotta   take   a   screenshot   of   this   so   we   can   put   this   in   the   show   notes,   just   so   that   people   don&#39;t   come   at   me   for   uh   for   thinking   like   it   is   it&#39;s   definitely   and   it&#39;s   it   also   it   has   no   border.   So,   like   on   um   Compiler   Explorer,   they   have   ads   at   the   top   in   the   banner,   but   they&#39;re   always   in   like   a   little   green   kind   of   highlighted   thing.   It&#39;s   very   clear   that   this   is   an   ad.   This   is   just   like   a   hyperlinked   image.   Uh,   and   if   you   look   closely   in   in   the   bottom   left-hand   corner,   it   says   capital   A   D   in   what   looks   like   size   7   font.   Um,   anyways,   whether   that   stays   in   or   not,   uh   I   mean   personally,   uh   I   know   Jonathan   because   we   met.   I   mean,   I   I   believe   you   were   at   the   conference   too.   This   was   2019   meeting   C.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>3:08</time>
      <p>
          The   three   of   us   had   had   dinner   at   a   Vietnamese   restaurant.   Uh,   that&#39;s   right.   10   minutes   walk.   That&#39;s   right.   And   I   think   both   of   you   at   the   time   were   um   not   drinking   any   alcohol,   which   seems   to   have   changed   uh   during   your   road   trip.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>3:23</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   for   50%   of   us,   Bryce   is   still   For   50%   of   us.   Yeah,   Bryce   is   still   on   that   uh,   you   know,   the   golden   path   to   success.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:30</time>
      <p>
          Fair   enough.   Is   that   the   first   time   that   we   met,   Jonathan?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>3:33</time>
      <p>
          I   think   it&#39;s   probably   the   only   time   we&#39;ve   met   in   person.   I   don&#39;t   think   I   don&#39;t   think   we&#39;ve   met   since   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>3:40</time>
      <p>
          However,   I   met   Jonathan   for   a   sec   I   believe   it   was   the   second   time,   because   I   have   a   sister   that   currently   lives   in   Dublin,   Ireland,   and   you   live   just   outside   of   Dublin.   And   my   sister   and   I   went   and   visited   you   at   your   lovely   home,   and   you   hosted   us.   You   had   some   family   there.   And   the   highlight,   of   course,   enjoying   Jonathan&#39;s   lovely   company   was   amazing,   but   the   highlight   was   something   I   don&#39;t   even   I   actually   think   I   said   I   was   gonna   tweet   about   it,   and   then   I   didn&#39;t   tweet   about   it.   It   was,   and   if   I   recall   the   flavor,   it   was   apricot.   Am   I   correct   in   that?   It   was   yes,   apricot,   as   we   say   in   in   Ireland.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>4:17</time>
      <p>
          Uh   ice   cream.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:19</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   discovered   that   I&#39;ve   been   pronouncing   all   these   words.   I   was   I   was   just   corrected   that   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   definitely   not   Pascal,   it&#39;s   Pascal.   And   uh   I   got   I   got   called   out   on   the   last   episode   uh   for   mispronouncing   that.   And   we   had   homemade   apricot?   Is   that   what   apricot   ice   cream,   yes.   Apricot   ice   cream.   And   it   was   divine.   And   that   was,   I   think,   the   second   time   we   met.   Um   but   yes,   back   to   this   bio.   It   reads   in   1998,   I   joined.   I&#39;m   gonna   mess   this   one   up,   Glockenspiel.   No,   that   was   1988.   1988.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>4:52</time>
      <p>
          If   it&#39;s   uh   then   it&#39;s   a   misb   maybe   I   wrote   that   wrong   or   something,   but   no,   no,   no.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:56</time>
      <p>
          I   just   have   uh   what   do   you   call   it?   Not   dyslexia.   There&#39;s   a   word   for   it   with   numbers   called   uh   what   is   it   called?   Discalcula.   Discalcula.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>5:05</time>
      <p>
          Okay.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>5:06</time>
      <p>
          Who   knows?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>5:07</time>
      <p>
          I   just   misread   it.   Okay.   But   Glock   Glockenspiel,   yeah,   I   joined   Glockenspiel   in   1988.   Uh   I   had   two   friends   of   mine   were   uh   working   there,   and   they   recommended   me   for   to   their   boss,   and   I   had   a   40-minute   conversation   with   him   and   was   hired.   That   was   how   people   used   to   get   hired   in   the   old   good   old   40   minutes.   40   minutes,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>5:31</time>
      <p>
          How   many   leak   code   questions   in   that   40   minutes?   You   know,   how   many   how   many   link   lists   did   you   have   to   reverse?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>5:40</time>
      <p>
          I   don&#39;t   think   any   uh   actually,   yeah.   Um   you   worked   there?   Yeah,   I   worked   there   for   a   few   years   and   uh   I   wrote   uh   yeah,   that&#39;s   where   I   learned   C.   And   two   of   my   fellow   colleagues   there,   they   worked   on   the   compiler   um   on   the   C   front,   which   was   uh   you   know   the   predecessor   to   an   actual   proper   compiler.   It   it   would   generate   C   code,   which   would   you   then   get   a   C   compiler   to   compile   to   uh   assembler   or   machine   code.   Um,   but   uh   yeah   there   was   Martin   O&#39;Reardin,   who   was   uh   the   only   member   of   the   Irish   uh   from   from   Ireland   who   was   on   the   standards   committee   for   many   many   years,   and   he   helped   to   write   uh   the   first   um   Microsoft&#39;s   first   C   compiler   back   in   like   1990,   1991.   And   John   Caves,   who   I   I   suspect   Bryce   has   met   John   Caves.   Uh   he&#39;s   be   still   he&#39;s   still   on   the   um   standards   committee,   um   and   he&#39;s   still   working   for   Microsoft,   and   and   the   two   of   them   were   were   uh   in   Glockenspiel   at   the   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>6:56</time>
      <p>
          What   a   what   what   what   a   time   and   what   a   group   of   uh   of   of   folks   to   get   to   work   with.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>7:02</time>
      <p>
          It   was   a   lot   of   fun.   Um   and   yeah   that   I   mean   I   I   worked   on   a   on   a   GUI   framework   for   it   I   wrote   uh   we   wrote   uh   a   library   where   you   could   you   could   create   Windows   programs   or   and   also   OS2   programs,   which   is   uh   another   operating   system   that   has   come   and   gone.   Um   and   uh   I   then   got   involved   a   lot   in   education,   so   I   would   I   would   go   off   and   and   uh   train   a   company   for   a   week   in   how   to   write   good   C   ⁇   uh   as   it   was   in   the   day.   Um   and   yeah   the   language   was   so   small   and   we   had   I   think   uh   we   had   no   standard   library,   we   had   no   string   class.   There   was   uh   a   um   a   co-routines   uh   library   that   that   shipped   with   Seafront   Um   which   uh   was   in   the   I   think   the   first   edition   of   Struwstrop.   There&#39;s   a   a   chapter   at   the   very   back   of   the   book   that   that   describes   how   to   use   it.   Um   and   that   of   course   disappeared   in   the   second   edition   and   and   and   later   editions,   and   finally   we&#39;ve   got   back   some   kind   of   well   we&#39;ve   got   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   the   if   the   coroutines   that   we   have   now   are   are   the   same   or   quite   different   from   the   ones   that   were   back   in   this   library.   It&#39;s   a   long   time   ago.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>8:23</time>
      <p>
          And   famously,   or   not   famously,   but   according   to   the   bio,   you   left   you   left   the   world   of   C   for   Java.   And   then   Ruby.   Although   Ruby,   uh   I   love   Ruby.   Ruby   is   lovely.   Uh   uh   uh   what   do   you   call   it?   A   not   derivative   language,   a   child   language,   if   you   will,   of   small   talk,   which   I   think   most   Ruby   people   know,   but   maybe   there&#39;s   some   that   don&#39;t.   But   uh   was   his   name,   Matt   was   a   huge   fan   of   Smalltalk,   and   there&#39;s   a   bunch   of   stuff   in   in   Ruby   that   uh   is   basically   completely   completely   borrowed   from   uh   the   smalltalk   model.   So   you   did   that   for   for   how   many   years?   10,   10   to   15?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>9:03</time>
      <p>
          No,   I   did   it   for   about   six   or   seven.   Um   and   that   was   that   was   just   Ruby   or   it   was   just   yeah,   it   was   Ruby.   The   first   project   I   got   to   write   in   Ruby   was   I   wrote   a   little   a   little   translator   uh   for   ATM   messages.   Um   and   I   did   that   in   Rwanda,   which   was   was   great   fun.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:24</time>
      <p>
          Uh   wait,   wait,   wait,   wait,   wait.   I   I   want   to   understand   here.   You   did   that   for   the   Rwanda   market,   or   you   did   that   while   while   uh   like   you   went   to   Rwanda   and   I   was   in   Rwanda   for   six   weeks   and   I   wrote   this.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>9:37</time>
      <p>
          What   happened   was   the   company   that   we   had   connections   to,   they   they   ran   all   the   ATMs   in   the   country,   and   that   happened   to   be,   I   think,   at   the   time   in   in   2010,   they   had   14   ATMs   in   a   country   of   10   million   people.   There   were   14.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:55</time>
      <p>
          14?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>9:56</time>
      <p>
          14,   one   four,   yes.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:58</time>
      <p>
          Wow.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>10:00</time>
      <p>
          And   so   that&#39;s   about   one   one   per   what   800,000   or   something   like   that?   Something   like   that,   yes,   exactly.   Exactly.   Um   and   they   the   company   that   had   bought   another   10   ATMs,   but   the   those   ATMs   were   not   quite   compatible   with   their   server   software.   And   if   they   wanted   to   get   um   uh   if   they   want   to   update   their   server   so   they   could   get   a   module   uh   for   their   server   software,   but   that   module   will   cost   like   50   grand.   And   they   thought,   nah,   they&#39;ll   they&#39;ll   get   somebody   like   me   to   do   it   for   a   few   weeks,   and   we&#39;ll   just   I&#39;ll   just   write   a   little   translation   program   that   that   sits   in   the   middle   on   a   on   a   little   um   netbook   and   it   listens   for   messages   from   the   ATM   and   it   listens   for   messages   from   the   the   server,   and   it   just   translates.   Most   of   the   messages   are   the   same,   so   you   it   it   just   goes   all   the   way   through,   it&#39;s   passed   through,   but   there&#39;s   a   few   types,   it&#39;s   a   few   messages   that   have   to   be   tweaked.   Um   and   uh   and   I   started   doing   it   in   Java   and   it   was   just   so   awful,   and   then   um   my   boss   at   the   time   suggested   that   I   do   it   in   Ruby,   and   that   was   a   fantastic   decision   because   Ruby   is   great   for   string   handling   and   slicing   and   all   that   kind   of   stuff,   so   it   was   just   so   much   easier   um   than   Java.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:22</time>
      <p>
          This   is   very   true   for   leak   coding   purposes.   Sometimes   Ruby   is   the   best   uh   language   for   speedslash   length   because   it   has   a   ton   of   convenience   methods   on   strings   like   uh   TO   underscore   I   and   like   T   O   underscore   B,   I   believe.   And   that   one   is   super   useful   because   it&#39;s   like   uh   two   base,   and   then   you   provide   the   base.   Or   so   yeah,   if   you   have   like   a   string   number,   it   will   actually   maybe   that&#39;s   not   integers.   I   can&#39;t   remember.   The   point   is   that   there&#39;s   a   bunch   of   these   like   tiny   four-character   convenience   methods   where   if   you   need   to   convert   like   an   integer   to   its   base   two   representation,   which   is   gonna   be   like   you   know,   a   10-line   program   in   C   if   you&#39;re   going   through   it,   uh   you   can   just   do   that   in   like   literally   10   characters   in   Ruby.   And   uh   yeah,   a   ton   of   super   nice   convenience.   Sometimes   they   they   have   odd   names,   but   once   you   figure   out   what   it&#39;s   called,   uh   they   are   very,   very   nice   to   have.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>12:19</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   think   for   me   the   the   nicest   thing   there   was   that   you   have   slices   in   Ruby.   And   so   you   can   s   you   can   slice   an   array   or   slice   a   string,   and   you   can   you   can   give   it   like   a   little   sub-range   with   I   think   it   was   dot   dot.   So   you   can   say   like   zero,   you   can   take   a   string   square   bracket   zero   dot   dot   three,   and   that&#39;ll   give   you   a   close   square   bracket,   and   that&#39;ll   give   you   the   first   four   characters   of   the   string.   And   the   nice   thing   the   nice   thing   about   that   is   that   uh   well   nice   thing   about   uh   Ruby   is   that   if   the   string   is   only   like   uh   two   letters   long,   two   two   characters   long,   it   doesn&#39;t   matter,   it&#39;ll   give   you   those   two,   and   it&#39;ll   say,   Oh,   I   know   you   wanted   four,   but   you   know,   two   is   all   you   can   get,   and   I&#39;m   not   going   to   complain   about   it.   Whereas   in   java,   uh   it&#39;s   uh   you   want   four   characters,   it&#39;s   only   got   two.   Oh,   sorry,   uh   I&#39;m   throwing   an   exception   here.   Um   so   from   that   point   of   view,   things   were   very   nice.   It   was   much   simpler   um   to   do   this   in   Ruby.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:24</time>
      <p>
          But   doesn&#39;t   Python   doesn&#39;t   Python   have   Yeah   Python   has   that   now   too.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:28</time>
      <p>
          Uh   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   they   have   the   short   circuiting   um   only   give   you   what   it   has.   Uh   but   I&#39;m   not   sure.   Maybe   at   the   time   Python   didn&#39;t?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>13:37</time>
      <p>
          This   is   I   have   to   admit,   I   know   very   little   Python.   I   I   can   just   about   read   it,   but   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:46</time>
      <p>
          The   the   key   thing   is   though,   is   Java   definitely   did   not.   And   like   Java,   I   know   modern   Java   has   introduced   like   20   or   21   introduced   some   new   string   facilities   and   types   that   makes   it   way,   way   easier.   But   like   back   in   the   day,   they   had   like   you   know,   strings   were   immutable,   and   then   they   had   string   buffers   and   string   builders,   and   it   was   just   like   coming   from   a   language   where   you   can,   you   know,   manipulate   strings   easily.   Uh   Java,   it   it   was   uh   you   were   jumping   through   hoops   to   do   like   very   simple   things,   um,   which   is   you   know   a   large   inconvenience   if   if   you&#39;re   not   used   to   having   to   do   that.   Um   even   in   Caling   with   strings   is   pretty   you   can   you   know   add   two   strings   together,   it&#39;s   not   it&#39;s   not   too   bad.   Like   sure,   you   have   to   make   sure   you   don&#39;t   trip   up   on   string   literals   and   constructors   and   stuff,   but   uh   I   I   remember   like   Java   was   I   was   like,   what?   I   gotta   go   learn   about   a   builder   now?   Like   I   just   I   I   just   want   to   do   something   real   simple.   They&#39;re   like,   well,   if   you   want   to   do   something   uh   that   involves   mutability,   then   you&#39;re   gonna   need   a   builder.   And   I   was   like,   really?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>14:41</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   think   that   went   away   in   by   by   Java   5   or   Java   6,   but   anyway,   nevertheless.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:46</time>
      <p>
          I   I   have   some   I   have   some   questions   about   this   Rwanda   ATM   situation.   So   are   all   the   ATMs   in   Rwanda   still   run   by   this   netbook   that&#39;s   running   your   Ruby   code?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>14:58</time>
      <p>
          Um   I   think   no,   I   think   I   think   we   had   a   net   I   think   that   we   were   going   to   have   a   netbook   uh   per   ATM.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:07</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   okay.   So   is   each   is   each   ATM   in   Rwanda   still   still   running   this   uh   Ruby   code   that   you   wrote?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>15:14</time>
      <p>
          I   have   no   idea,   but   I   suspect   the   answer   is   definitely   no.   Um   I   mean   at   at   the   time   they   they   we   had   the   best   internet   connection   in   Rwanda   with   and   it   was   360k   baud.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:30</time>
      <p>
          So   uh   that&#39;s   not   a   lot   for   our   younger   listeners.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>15:34</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   not   a   lot,   um   and   I   know   now   that   they   have   excellent   uh   internet   in   the   country   from   from   talking   to   friends   of   mine   uh   who   live   there.   Um   so   they&#39;re   yeah,   things   are   are   are   fine   now.   Um   but   at   the   time   it   was   pretty   poor,   and   also   the   other   good   thing   about   using   a   netbook   was   that   it   was   like   it   had   uh   good   battery   life,   so   you   could   survive   uh   power   outages   and   the   system   would   continue   to   work,   which   was   also   pretty   important.   And   and   the   the   last   point   about   the   netbook   was   that   like   these   were   they   cost   what   200   bucks,   um   they   were   they   they   cost   nothing,   but   uh   we   were   only   getting   maybe   when   somebody   was   using   the   ATM,   you   might   get   a   message   every   second,   you   might   get   like   10   messages,   and   that   was   it.   So   you   didn&#39;t   have   you   didn&#39;t   have   to   be   high   powered   at   all.   Um   so   that   and   Ruby   was   there   for   totally   fine.   There   was   no   speed   constraints   on   the   system.   Um   so   what   year   was   this?   This   was   2010.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:42</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   so   that   it&#39;s   that&#39;s   pretty   consistent.   I   just   looked   it   up   and   I   don&#39;t   know   how   accurate   this   data   is,   but   uh   what   is   it,   the   Federal   Reserve   Economic   Data   website,   something   like   that.   And   it   says   that   in   t   in   2010   there   was   only   84,   but   just   like   three   years   earlier   it   was   16.   So   I   mean   that&#39;s   definitely   consistent   with   what   you&#39;re   saying,   and   it   peaked   according   to   this   site   in   2017.   They   had   406   countrywide.   I   was   assuming   that   that   number   was   gonna   be   like   in   the   thousands,   and   it&#39;s   actually   gone   down.   So   currently,   as   of   2022,   this   website   says   that   there   are   347   ATMs   in   Rwanda.   And   that   is   very,   I   mean,   surprising,   but   then   I   guess   I&#39;ve   heard   that   a   lot   of   African   countries   um   use   like   I   don&#39;t   know   what   the   name   of   the   app   is,   but   like   the   equivalent   in   China   is   Weixhin   or   Wheat.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>17:37</time>
      <p>
          They   have   a   th   they   have   an   app.   It   was   the   first,   I   think   it   was   the   first   um   app   in   the   world.   Uh   it   was   done   by   a   Kenyan   company   and   they   called   it   X   uh   M   Pesa.   M   Pesa   is   Swahili   for   money,   I   believe.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:52</time>
      <p>
          Um   a   lot   of   banking   happens   on   like   cell   phones.   Yeah,   it&#39;s   they   skip,   they   skipped   a   whole   uh   I   don&#39;t   know,   like   evolution   step   that   you   know   Western   countries   went   through   because   everyone   had   cell   phones   before   they   had   and   in   fact   MPESA   was   e   it   wasn&#39;t   even   on   the   smartphone,   it   was   on   the   old   like   Nokia.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>18:10</time>
      <p>
          And   you&#39;d   basically   you&#39;d   actually   they   would   install   this   tiny   app   onto   the   phone   and   you   would   then   type   in   the   phone   number   of   the   person   you   wanted   to   send,   you&#39;d   type   in   um   uh   an   amount   of   money,   and   you&#39;d   click   send,   and   and   there&#39;d   be   maybe   one   other   thing,   and   that   would   that   would   send   your   money.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>18:29</time>
      <p>
          Um   the   net   the   netbook   thing,   you   know,   I   think   a   lot   of   people&#39;s   first   reaction   is   oh   you&#39;re   like   that&#39;s   so   like   hacky,   like   yo,   you   should   go   get   a   put   it   on   a   Raspberry   Pi,   put   it   on   some   you   know,   like   they   had   Raspberry   Pi   back.   But   the   battery   thing,   the   battery   thing   is   so   clever.   Like   one,   they&#39;re   super   cheap.   And   two,   like   you   know,   your   your   little   Raspberry   Pi   or   your   edge   computing   device   is   doesn&#39;t   have   uh   uh   you   know   a   battery   backup   system   built   into   it   that   a   laptop   does.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>19:05</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it   was   just   it   was   cheap   and   it   worked.   Um   so   yeah.   I   love   that.   I   love   that   story.   But   uh   the   the   reason   why   uh   there   were   only   like   14   or   ATMs   in   the   country   at   the   time   was   about   maybe   three   years   before   the   president   of   the   country,   Paul   Kagama,   he   had   been   uh   he&#39;d   been   somewhere   traveling   in   maybe   America   or   somewhere   like   that,   and   the   hotel   had   asked   to   take   a   a   scan   of   his   credit   card,   and   he   didn&#39;t   have   a   credit   card.   And   he   felt   somewhat   embarrassed   about   this.   So   he   when   he   came   back   home,   he   said,   right,   we&#39;re   going   to   mandate   uh   we&#39;re   gonna   have   credit   cards   for   people   or   or   electronic   cards,   and   that&#39;s   why   they   they   this   company   was   started.   Um   interesting.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>19:57</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   What   do   you   call   it?   A   uh   fortunate   or   unfortunate   series   of   events   that   like   you   know   leads   to   uh   and   so   it   before   that   point   I   guess   they   they   didn&#39;t   have   I   guess   what   does   this   graph   say?   It   says   Yeah,   in   2004   there   was   only   two.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>20:14</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   okay.   So   they   actually   had   they   had   some   then,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:17</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   but   I   mean   it&#39;s   if   it&#39;s   two,   I   mean   odds   are   they&#39;re   you   know   uh   that   you&#39;re   gonna   find   yourself   standing   next   to   one   when   you   need   one   is   uh   pr   pretty   astronomically   low,   this   the   probability   of   that.   Uh   yeah.   Alright,   but   you   so   you   found   your   way   back   to   C   in   what   are   the   bios?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>20:34</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   that   would   be   about   twenty   twenty   sixteen   I   started   uh   reading   stuff   about   it   again   and   found   that   the   language   had   co   totally   changed   from   what   I   remembered.   From   like   I   last   wrote   C   for   about   2000,   2001,   and   then   I   switched   to   to   Java   at   that   stage,   and   then   10   years   later   I   switched   to   Ruby.   But   2016   came   back,   there   was   Move   Semantics.   Wow,   that   was   like   that   took   me   forever   to   figure   out.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:04</time>
      <p>
          What   was   your   what   was   your   favorite?   So   you   were,   you   know,   your   mind   was   uh   you   know   befuddled   by   move   semantics,   but   from   2001   to   2016,   that&#39;s   I   guess   11   and   14.   Uh   what   was   like   the   the   biggest   or   I   guess   how   do   you   phrase   the   question?   What   was   your   favorite   change   and   like   what   was   the   the   biggest   paradigm   shift   from   when   you   were   coding   or   well   you   had   a   standard   library   for   a   start.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>21:31</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   not   what   I   was   expecting   you   to   do.   But   I   guess   that   is   yeah,   we   had   strings.   Uh   we   had   we   had   vector   ones,   but   they&#39;re   still   strings.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Vector,   you   had   you   know   all   these   you   know   useful   you   know,   you   have   m   maps   uh   hash   maps   and   whatever.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   It&#39;s   fantastic.   And   that&#39;s   something   that   that   the   old   languages   uh   never   had.   You   know.   Pascal   I   don&#39;t   think   had   No,   it   didn&#39;t   have   any   standard   it   it   had   it   had   standard   output.   You   could   print   stuff   to   files   and   to   the   the   the   console,   but   that   was   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:21</time>
      <p>
          Um   so   Java,   I   mean,   because   Java   famously   has   a   massive   standard   library.   Was   that   the   first   language   of   the   languages   back   in   the   90s   that   kind   of   started   to   ship   with   code   that   you   could   use   and   not   have   to   write   yourself?   I   would   think   so.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>22:40</time>
      <p>
          Although   small   talk,   small   talk   has   small   talk   had   yes,   small   talk   had   a   big   had   a   big   library,   absolutely.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:46</time>
      <p>
          And   I   guess   java   is   also   uh   a   descendant   of   Smalltalk,   you   know,   even   though   it&#39;s   not   really   people   hear   object-oriented   and   they   think   of   both   of   those   languages,   but   yeah,   I   guess   you   could   argue   that   you   know   there&#39;s   some   other   language   that   that   Java   is.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>23:04</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   wondering,   I&#39;m   trying   to   remember   Lisp,   which   was   my   favorite   language   in   in   college.   Um   that   was   that   had   a   lot   of   stuff   in   it.   You   could   do   a   lot   of   but   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   I   don&#39;t   think   well   with   Lisp,   like   you&#39;ve   got   the   core   and   then   everything   else   is   is   kind   of   added   on.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:27</time>
      <p>
          I   feel   like   I&#39;ve   heard   that   Common   Lisp   famously   also   had   massive   amounts   that   like   shipped   with   it,   and   that   that   was   kind   of   both   a   pro   and   a   con   because   Lisp   is   famous   for   being   this   very   small,   nuclear,   homo   iconic,   uh,   you   know,   data   is   code   kind   of   thing.   But   then   Common   Lisp   went   this   other   direction,   and   this   is   all   just   third   party   from   having   heard   people   give   talks   on   this,   is   like   it   shipped   with   a   ton   of   stuff   that   kind   of   like   ruined   that.   Like   it   still   had   the   core   somewhere   inside   it,   but   it   it   shipped   with   a   bunch   of   stuff.   But   I&#39;ve   honestly   never   programmed   a   common   list.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>23:58</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   I   haven&#39;t   either.   I   used   I   used   uh   a   lisp   called   Franz   Lisp,   which   had   lots   of   puns.   Franz   Lisp.   Franz   Lis-N-S?   No,   F-R-A-N-Z.   Franz   L   as   in   Franz   Liszt,   the   composer.   It   had   lots   of   jokes   about   about   uh   the   the   19th   century   composer.   Have   you   heard   of   Franz   Liszt,   Bryce?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>24:20</time>
      <p>
          No,   it   it&#39;s   gotta   be   a   pretty   obscure   language   for   Connor.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:27</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I   made   a   whole   video   at   one   point   when   I   was   working   through   the   structure   and   interpretation   of   computer   programs   that   was   like   the   history   of   Lisps,   and   I   discovered   a   ton   of   Lisps   that   I   had   never   heard   of,   like   Pico   Lisp,   and   I   don&#39;t   know.   There&#39;s   there&#39;s   a   bunch   I   have   heard   of.   There&#39;s   one   also   called   Dylan,   I   think,   that   was   out   of   Microsoft   that   Oh,   that   must   that   sounds   later.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>24:46</time>
      <p>
          That   sounds   a   lot   later.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:47</time>
      <p>
          But   um   Yeah,   yeah,   that   was   the   90s.   Uh   but   anyways,   the   whole   point   is   like,   you   know,   there&#39;s   a   whole   world   of   Lisp&#39;s   out   there.   People   think   of   like   there&#39;s   the   Lisp   Lisp,   there&#39;s   Scheme   and   Racket,   and   then   there&#39;s   Clojure,   but   like   behind   the   scenes,   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   like   50   other   Lisp   that   uh   all   vary   in   their   language   features   and   whatnot.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>25:04</time>
      <p>
          The   thing   about   Lisp,   you   were   saying   it&#39;s   homo   iconic,   which   means   data   is   program   and   program   is   data.   And   I   got   interested   there.   Uh   well,   I   was   interested   a   long   time   ago,   but   there   was   uh   about   quines.   Do   you   do   you   guys   know   what   a   coine   is?   Yeah,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>25:20</time>
      <p>
          A   coine   is   I&#39;ve   heard   it   before,   but   I   don&#39;t   remember.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>25:24</time>
      <p>
          A   coine   is   a   program   that   when   run   produces   its   own   uh   source   code.   Um   and   it   doesn&#39;t   just   do   like   you   know,   read   the   file   and   spit   out   the   answer.   Um   but   I   remember   writing   a   coin   for   Lisp   and   it   was   like   six   lines   long.   And   that   checks   out.   That&#39;s   yeah,   and   and   and   but   if   you   try   to   do   it   for   for   C,   it&#39;s   probably   I   think   50   lines   or   something.   I   know   there   was   a   great   talk.   There   was   a   I   think   there   was   a   lightning   talk   there   at   one   recently,   well,   maybe   the   last   three   years   about   coines   and   how   to   write   a   coine.   And   it   was,   I   can&#39;t   remember,   I   think   that   they   I   think   the   person   who   gave   it   was   French.   I   suspect   they   were,   but   I   could   be   wrong.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>26:20</time>
      <p>
          Well,   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   do   some   searching.   And   there&#39;s   definitely   a   bunch   of   talks   out   there.   There&#39;s   a   there&#39;s   a   famous   set   of   coines,   which   I&#39;m   not   gonna   remember   the   name   of,   but   it&#39;s   like   they   generate   it&#39;s   a   it&#39;s   a   huge   loop,   like   and   it&#39;s   named   after   a   dragon   or   snake   that&#39;s   eating   its   own   tail.   Yeah   where   like   it   started   off   with   like   a   few   languages,   but   now   it&#39;s   up   to   like   I   don&#39;t   know   if   it&#39;s   a   hundred   plus,   but   so   it&#39;s   like   you   know,   the   Java   generates   the   C,   generates   the   Ruby,   and   it   goes   through   a   hundred   different   languages   all   the   way   back,   and   so   you   know,   every   every   once   in   a   while.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:54</time>
      <p>
          Like   talk   through   it   right   now   on   the   podcast.   Just   because   like   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   trying   to   mentally   imagine   like   how   one   of   these   works.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>27:04</time>
      <p>
          The   main   problem   is   that   you&#39;ve   got   to   handle   uh   quotation   marks   and   and   emitting   quotation   marks.   Because   basically,   basically   you   what   your   coin   is   going   to   be,   it&#39;s   going   to   be   like   like   int   main   bracket   bracket,   and   then   you&#39;re   gonna   have   like   um   uh   printf   or   or   stud   C   out   or   whatever,   and   a   big   long   string.   And   the   problem   with   that   is   that   you&#39;ve   got   to   handle   the   extra   uh   double   quotes,   and   and   they   they   get   swallowed,   so   you   have   to   produce   them,   and   that&#39;s   and   that&#39;s   the   that&#39;s   where   all   the   tricks   come   in.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:43</time>
      <p>
          Um,   what&#39;s   the   coin   is   though,   right   Bryce?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:48</time>
      <p>
          I   understand   the   essence.   Um   I   would   still   like   to   see   a   simple   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>27:54</time>
      <p>
          As   I   said,   there   there   is   there   is   uh   a   guy   did   a   uh   a   lightning   talk   and   he   showed   how   to   write   a   coine   in   about   seven   minutes.   Um   at   what   uh   it   was   in   one   of   the   C   conferences   over   the   last   few   years.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>28:10</time>
      <p>
          All   right,   folks.   We&#39;re   we&#39;re   taking   a   little   mini   detour.   I   will   not   share   the   screen,   but   I   have   up   because   we   don&#39;t   do   that   on   ADSP   the   podcast   anymore.   Bryce   sometimes   does   because   he   doesn&#39;t   care   about   you,   dear   listener.   I,   however,   do   I,   however,   do,   and   I   am   at   rosettacode.org   slash   wiki   slash   quine,   and   I   am   not   gonna   be   able   to   count   how   many   languages,   but   we&#39;re   looking   at   roughly   I&#39;d   estimate   2   or   100   or   300.   So   I&#39;m   gonna   scroll   and   I&#39;m   just   gonna   give   you   the   guesses.   So   8080   assembly   looks   to   be   a   couple   hundred,   ABAP   looks   to   be   30   lines,   although   there&#39;s   a   bunch   of   extra   stuff.   ACL2   is   six   lines,   and   they   actually   have   a   shorter   one   that   is   a   single   line.   I   don&#39;t   know   if   ACL2   language   is   that&#39;s   a   Lisp?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>29:04</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   never   heard   of   this.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:06</time>
      <p>
          If   I   click   on   ACL2,   it   says   ACL2   is   a   logic   and   programming   language   in   which   you   can   model   computer   systems   together   with   a   tool   to   help   you   prove   properties   of   those   models.   ACL2   denotes   a   computational   logic   for   applicative   common   Lisp.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>29:24</time>
      <p>
          Ah,   common   Lisp.   You   see,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   a   Lisp   language,   yeah.   Okay.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>29:27</time>
      <p>
          ACL   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   jumping   down   to   the   bash   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:31</time>
      <p>
          This   is   how   my   mind   works.   Oh,   look   at   that.   APL.   Single   line   as   well,   unsurprisingly.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan O&#39;Connor</cite>
      <time>29:39</time>
      <p>
          Conrad   is   so   pleased.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:41</time>
      <p>
          Now   I&#39;m   gonna   I&#39;m   gonna   read   this   out   for   the   listener.   It&#39;s   and   it&#39;s   gonna   sound   like   C.   Uh   it&#39;s   one   rotate,   uh   Ravel,   uh   it&#39;s   ravel   commute,   nine   reshape,   and   then   single   quote,   single   quote,   single   quote,   and   then   inside   the   inner   quotes,   one   rotate,   ravel,   commute,   nine   reshape.   Interesting.   So   what   is   that   doing   basically?   It&#39;s   basically   kind   of   performing   a   no-op,   I   think,   or   a   small   operation   on   what   is   essentially   just   gonna   be   the   exact   same   thing.   And   the   nine   reshape   is   gonna   give   you   this   code   twice   because   you   have   one,   two,   three,   four,   five,   six   characters   inside   your   string.   And   when   you   reshape   on   a   on   a   string,   so   similar   to   actually   what   we   were   talking   about   in   Ruby   earlier,   instead   in   that   case,   we   had   we   were   trying   to   take   more   than   we   had   where   we   gave   and   it   gave   you   back   just   what   what   was   there.   In   APL,   when   you   do   that   with   a   reshape,   which   is   basically   trying   to   reshape   the   shape   of   your   string,   if   you   specify   more,   it   actually   cycles.   So   in   this,   it&#39;ll   it&#39;ll   cycle,   you   know,   if   you&#39;ve   got   one,   two,   three,   four,   and   you&#39;ve   got   trying   to   do   a   take   ten,   you&#39;ll   end   up   with   one,   two,   three,   four,   one,   two,   three,   four,   one,   two.   Which   you   can   argue   which   behavior   is   better.   Is   it   the   APL   behavior,   is   it   the   Ruby   behavior?   The   point   is   that&#39;s   how   APL   works.   And   uh   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   that   made   sense   to   the   listener.   But   uh,   Bryce,   have   you   made   sense   of   the   bash,   the   bash   uh   code?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:10</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I&#39;ve   looked   at   the   C   and   the   bash   ones,   and   uh   the   bash   ones   are   not   very   helpful   because   they   just   cheat   and   do   awful   things.   But   uh   I   I   I   think   Hey,   there&#39;s   no   such   thing   as   cheating   when   writing   a   coine.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:20</time>
      <p>
          The   whole   point   of   a   coine   is   that   you   just   generate   the   source   code   that   you   initially   wrote.   That&#39;s   that   that&#39;s   the   only   rule.   Like   there&#39;s   no   such   thing   as   cheating.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:29</time>
      <p>
          Didn&#39;t   we   say   just   a   few   minutes   ago?   You   can&#39;t   read   in   the   source   file.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:33</time>
      <p>
          Correct.   That&#39;s   that&#39;s   cheating.   All   right.   Yeah.   I   stand   corrected.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:37</time>
      <p>
          And   and   I&#39;m   fairly   certain   that   what   the   like   the   first   one   of   the   bash   examples   here   uh   is   essentially   uh   it   does   I   don&#39;t   think   it   actually   reads   in   the   source   file,   but   it   um   it   maps   in   No,   that&#39;s   what   it   does   pretty   much.   It   maps   in   the   file   where   the   script   is,   and   then   it   just   prints   that   out.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:57</time>
      <p>
          Ooh,   and   I   just   realized   when   I   said   RAVEL   in   APL,   that   was   actually   the   monadic,   it   was   the   dyadic   definition,   so   it   would   have   been   cat   and   eight.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:04</time>
      <p>
          I   want   to   see   the   make   one.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:07</time>
      <p>
          This   is   probably   part   one   of   a   four-part   episode   series.   Be   sure   to   check   the   show   notes   either   in   your   podcast   app   or   at   adspthepodcast.com   for   links   to   anything   we   mentioned   in   today&#39;s   episode,   as   well   as   a   link   to   the   GitHub   discussion   where   you   can   leave   comments,   thoughts,   and   questions.   Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:25</time>
      <p>
          Low   quality,   high   quality,   that   is   the   tagline   of   our   podcast.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>32:31</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   not   the   tagline.   Our   tagline   is   chaos   with   sprinkles   of   information.
      </p>