Conor

But uh Alan Turing is one of my heroes. Some might know was uh an elite runner in his day as well, and there's some crazy stories about him. At the time, uh he he actually qualified for the 1948 Olympics, and I'd like to think that some of his, you know, ruminating about ideas and stuff, uh, you know.

Jonathan O'Connor

I guess I guess today it's because it's one of the few places where you're not you don't have a screen in front of you.

Bryce

Yeah.

Jonathan O'Connor

And so you're not being distracted. It's true. That's the great thing about uh playing chess. Um like I've I've been playing chess for my whole life as about as long as I've been programming. And um you cannot you're not allowed to bring a phone or a watch, and you're there for four hours, no screen, it's just you, your opponent, the board, and uh yeah, you can just it really lets you think and concentrate on a single thing.

Conor

Welcome to ADSP the podcast, episode 153, recorded on October 18th, 2023. My name is Connor, and today with my co-host Bryce, we continue our conversation with Jonathan O'Connor. In today's episode, we chat about Pascal versus C versus Ada, as well as some random topics like chess, exercise, running, and more. Listen, folks, we're now at part two of this episode. I don't actually know where I split. I think I probably split it right when we were asking, you know, what Jonathan thought about uh modern C. Then we took a right-hand turn into Lisp, and now we're in Lisp coins and bash coins and APL coins. Uh the topic that the reason, Jonathan reached out to us after we it I think it's safe to say that we were um drowning at sea while trying to talk about Pascal, Ada, and other system languages. You know, we did our best, uh, but we we got a lot of, I don't think it's it might be our most number of like uh comments on Twitter. And uh I had people not only commenting on the GitHub discussion, but opening issues. Please don't open an issue. We have a discussion. If you'd if you'd like to post something, go to the discussion. Don't open a whole new issue because what am I supposed to do with that?

Bryce

Just like respond and say some sometimes uh on uh like the radio, like N PR, you'll hear them say like no letters, please. Yeah, our equivalent is no issues, please.

Conor

Yeah, we had uh we had someone uh at prog tools, which uh I don't want to dox the person, but you can find their name if you go to their website and look at their TV. Um I mean doxing them would be saying their name because uh they don't have their name in their dox them, but if you want to dox them, you can just go to their website. No, no, no. But so I I want to have this individual, and at that point we'll probably say his name, unless if they want to go by uh prog tools. But they they reached out, I'll read this quickly, and they had uh what did they say? You know, C is usually chosen be chosen as a you know FFI target because most OS happen to be written in C as it uh overlaps with OS ABI, etc. etc. Then he goes on to list a bunch of system languages. And so here we go: Jovial, SPOL, Noop, that's N-E-W-P, that's all capital letters for the last three, Mesa, Bliss, all capitals, PL1, PL8, PLS, PLM, modula two, algal68, concurrent Pascal, Classcal, Object Pascal, and then finishes with those are some examples. And I think we actually got a comment which is a um uh I can't find their name right now. Maybe we'll mention them in the next recording, but they pointed out how is it that two people with a podcast named ADSP don't know what the Virth languages are? And uh uh I mean Touche, that is uh a very good point. And also we we haven't read it either. That is a good point.

Bryce

We said it but we said I I I should note that that deficiency is entirely Connor's fault in Connor's department because knowing programming languages is what Connor is here for. I don't know why I'm here. Um but it's definitely that.

Conor

Hot takes, and this is the perfect. I will cut in. Someone posted a I don't want to it was uh what do they call it? K-pop, a K-pop s a K-pop song by some K-pop person. Oh no, I'm just gonna insert it all over the place. Okay.

Bryce

I feel like it's debut. It deserves a better. I will try to generate a better hot take. Would you like to do this?

Conor

Well, here's the opportunity. We I didn't play it, folks. Bryce, go. Hot take.

Bryce

I don't have one right now.

Conor

Okay. I will uh did you know? Here's here, we're gonna get we're gonna get a uh potentially Bryce doesn't even know what has happened. Did you know that our rival podcast now, Oxide and Friends, recorded an episode, invited me on, and didn't invite you on?

Bryce

I did not know that. I I um I gotta say I'm offended.

Jonathan O'Connor

Connor, you are this is this is where you are definitely showing a huge amount of Schadenfreude there.

Conor

Uh I mean it's Bryce. I don't think that counts. I don't think it counts as Schadenfreude.

Bryce

Connor, so you're telling me that that I got to trash talk somebody for absolutely no reason, and that you're the one who has to go on to the other podcast and uh make amends. That that actually sounds like a good arrangement for me.

Conor

I mean, folks should go listen to the episode, it's already out. Uh but I think I mean Did they invite you on the episode? Yeah, yeah. And they actually they replayed our replaying of their audio. So it's it's getting extremely meta now. Maybe we should do an episode where we replay, them replaying just replaying.

Bryce

If they're gonna if they're gonna invite just you to their podcast, then I'm gonna invite them here. We can we can have this out somewhere. I don't know.

Conor

I mean, uh yes, here's our formal invitation. We will we will reach out right before this airs uh to both Brian and Adam if you'd like to come on and and we can unsettle the beef.

Bryce

I think Bryce No, no, but we're only inviting the one of the two of them that uh anyways, we're way off track here.

Conor

The point is Jonathan was one of the folks that reached out to talk about Pascal, Ada, Lisp, and we're kind of doing that. We we took our right turn into Lisp land, we sort of are taking a tangent into t uh Quineland.

Jonathan O'Connor

Okay, Connor, I I want I want it known that I, of all of us here, am the only person who has actually read um uh ADSP. There we go. You might be Algorithms and uh plus data our first guest.

Conor

We haven't actually asked folks.

Jonathan O'Connor

And I read it in hardback.

Bryce

I do think I own a copy in hardcover that I believe Hartmet, Kaiser, my uh Wait, you own a copy of ADSP? I think, I'm pretty sure.

Conor

I mean that's even worse that you haven't read it than uh Yeah. Alright, so let's take a little mini, a little mini book review here. We're here with Ah, we've actually had like 20 or 30 guests, so I wouldn't be surprised if at least one or two of them read it. But this is the first we know of a guest having read algorithms plus data structures equals programs. Five out of five, four to five. What would you what would you say? Is it uh is a book that the youth, the kids, should read?

Jonathan O'Connor

At the time I thought it would be it was like a a three to four out of five. Ooh. But I mean it was it was the book that I learned Pascal from. Okay. Um apart from the lectures that we had in the subject in first year. Um and I that's about it. I don't remember anything else about it. Because it's like it's a long time ago.

Conor

So was it uh was it a three out of five mostly because it was uh only a decent teaching book for Pascal, or was it just uh as a book in general? It was good, but not not at all.

Jonathan O'Connor

It wasn't it wasn't no, it wasn't it wasn't a wow book. I mean, like um oh what's that the uh structure interpretation of computer programs. That is that's not even a five out of five, that's like a ten out of five. Yeah, it's agreed. It's amazing. Um and I I didn't get that from Virth's uh book, but um but no, it was it was fine. The funny thing is I learned at that year I learned Pascal, and then I had friends in the maths department, um, and they had there was a there was a guy there uh Trinity College always had like strange hangers on uh around the university, and maybe maybe lots of universities have that, those kind of people. But this guy had been a barrister in London, and his wife um took well, she she got some serious illness, and they thought she was going to die very quickly. Uh so they went to Malta uh for what they thought was going to be three three months while she died, and instead she took seven years to die. So at that after the seven years That's more like seven years to live, right there.

Conor

Uh well indeed, yeah.

Jonathan O'Connor

It was I mean, and she had a presumably she had a very nice uh nice life uh in those seven years on Malta, nice weather and food and so on. Um, but when he he couldn't go back to the law after that, and so he ended up coming to Dublin and he got a master's in computer science. And at some stage he taught he would teach a course on C programming uh at lunch times, and I took that, and I remember it was only after uh learning C that I could understand how pointers worked in Pascal. And in fact, if you look at the languages, the the Pascal and C are almost identical. I I don't think there's maybe C is a bit more flexible. Um what do you mean by that?

Bryce

Almost identical in their capabilities.

Jonathan O'Connor

Okay, well, you've got both languages have have structs or records. Pascal had uh had a variant, C has union. Um you have functions that you can just write functions. I think in I think Pascal may have added allowed nested functions, but I don't remember anymore. Um but it you didn't have object-oriented uh stuff. You pointers they had some weird syntax which seemed to me very unintuitive, whereas the C syntax seemed very clear, um, you know, star and oppressant um for for dereference and and and address of. Um but in in yeah in Pascal it was slightly it's slightly different, but basically the same. You could almost I'd say you could write you could write uh uh fairly easily a translator that translates code from Pascal to C or vice versa. I d I don't see there being any any difficulties there. Um it's it's it's procedural language both are procedural languages. They don't support any other paradigms.

Bryce

So why why did uh why did C take over the world and not Pascal?

Jonathan O'Connor

Oh I would think it was uh uh PDP eleven or PDP eight, which were these my uh mini computers in the 70s. And like we had we had the first yeah, I think we had the the Maths Department had the first um Unix machine in Ireland. Um and it was, I don't know, it might have cost probably cost quite a lot, probably cost like I don't know, thirty thousand dollars, pounds, euros or whatever. Uh back in the day that was a lot. Um but it meant that you know the whole department of mathematics students and and lecturers could all be writing their their papers in in tech and playing games and you know doing silly things.

Bryce

Um that is not what I imagined the primary motivation for getting a computer to be so that we can typeset our papers and play games.

Jonathan O'Connor

Well that's what it was used for. They were they were they used oh yeah, trough. There was a thing called Trough, which I I uh was like a precursor to to tech, but um Yeah, I've heard of it.

Bryce

Not good things, but I've heard of it.

Jonathan O'Connor

Yeah, I mean again it it it you used what you had and um and you moved on. Um so yes, but that was that was what was available, and I think and that's where anyway that's uh I could learn my C on that and um but yeah C and Pascal I considered them like uh basically equivalent. And in fact, I I was looking at at Ada here. I've got this this this I fished out the the manual. Well ADA an introduction by Henry Ledgard, um and it was written in 1980, and when we were it was second year we had we had it in 1982, we had a big project we had to write code which would never run to implement some kind of graphic standard, and the name of the graphic standard I cannot remember anymore, um and we had no idea what we were doing, and our lecturers gave us this as a class project, so there were well 30 of us involved in writing the code for it. Um I think it was mainly as a as to see like a class dynamics kind of approach to see how it would work. Um, and when we we didn't have a compiler, we had if we wanted to compile our code, we would uh email it to an address in at a New York University, and overnight the code would be compiled but not linked, um, and uh we would get the answer back the next day as to what whether the code was syntactically uh correct or not. That's that that that's like that's like the the the uh the ancient version of Godbalt rather slower, but probably probably it works out if you if you do Moore's law on that on that turnaround, it's probably about equivalent. No, there was there was um I remember coming across a development um um method uh that IBM used, this clean house approach, and there the developers they would write their code, but they were not allowed to compile it. Um or you know, they just the compile they they wrote it, they pushed it over to people who would build it for them and test stuff and whatever, and apparently this was quite successful, this way of programming developing.

Bryce

I would hate that, but I don't understand the motivation there.

Jonathan O'Connor

Why I I think it was back in the day, maybe I don't know. IBM does strange things or has done it.

Bryce

Yeah, like I don't I can't imagine what benefit you would derive from that.

Jonathan O'Connor

There were there must have been some.

Bryce

I would definitely want to be on the the team writing the code, not the team compiling the code. It feels like that's the that's the better end to be on.

Jonathan O'Connor

True, true.

Bryce

Uh it's always more fun to write the code, but then you know you gotta make a compiling work.

Jonathan O'Connor

Yeah. I think maybe maybe also it it's it's to make sure that you you use your brain. Because again, my first programs that I wrote, uh we had uh we had four terminals between thirty of us, and we had four hours, five days a week, access to those terminals. So we had less than two hours a week on average per person to write our code. So we would go to the library, write it on uh by hand on paper, and then we would execute it in our heads. And then we would we would debug it that way, and eventually we would get to type it in and try it out. Um and that I think that thought process is useful certainly when you're learning, and I think people don't do that anymore. Uh and I think I it was interesting, I think you were saying you're you've been working on this really hard problem, Bryce, and and I think you've probably done an awful lot of of thinking in your head, and but you're probably one of the few people uh yourself and Connor are probably one of the few people out there who do that.

Bryce

Um it's it's it's fine that you mentioned that. But because for for an algorithm like this, um and hang on, I gotta get a prop. Um when I'm developing a parallel algorithm like this, I often I often turn to paper. Um because sometimes I'll like try to, you know, with a text editor, um uh like uh write out some you know sort of comment style text that'll help me visualize the problem. Um but for for more complex things, um I I really just think like being able to draw on paper, like it's so much more expensive. Like so sometimes, sometimes I'll go and like make like a PowerPoint slide too that'll uh help me understand. But but oftentimes before I make a PowerPoint slide um to help me understand an algorithm, or just before I make a PowerPoint slide in general, when I'm in the brainforming storming phase, like there's something really nice about a blank sheet of paper. Um because like I have a vision in my head about like how I'm gonna express something. Like I I don't know if you can see here, but um this particular algorithm, it has two scans that go uh one from the beginning to the end and the other one from the end to the beginning. And um I sort of wanted a way to like visualize those scans. And and the the way that I was imagining it in my head was this sort of pyramid um where the like the visualization of the scan, like as you go to each subsequent element, you're stacking the pyramid higher and higher and higher as more the the previous elements are getting summed into the you know, this rolling partial sum that you're doing. Um and it's sort of like these two pyramids that are uh uh you know, one's going from left is low on the left and high on the right, and one is um uh high on the right and low on the left. And that's just how I visualized it in my head. And I felt like if I can draw this out on paper, then I'll then I'll be able to understand. Um and uh in particular for the synchronization part of this, I um I when I I I was like I just felt like I needed to have it on paper to be able to see a few different properties of this thread's doing this thing, and then I know that I'll have this memory ordering guarantee from this thread to this other thread. Um but then the other part of it, um the the the some of the more recent breakthroughs that I've had in this, like this morning I was in the gym and I was thinking about this problem, and not with like a keyboard or something. And sometimes when I'm working on developing an algorithm or developing some code like this, um I do my best work in the gym and I will write out on my phone in like notes um like some pseudo-code. And then sometimes I'll write the first version of the code on on my phone in the gym. Um and that that just seems, I think to some people, like terrible. Like who wants to type out code on the phone? Um, but there's something there's something nice about it to me, especially because like if I'm writing code on my phone, it's really hard to write the code. And so I can only really do it for something that's very simple and very elegant. Like I can't write like you know, 300 lines of code. I can just write the essence, and that's sort of what I want to do anyways. So it's you know, you even in this day and age, um like my there's there's something that resonates about what you just uh described, because I was I was this morning I went and wrote some code in the gym and I didn't have a way to compile it right away, and then I went home, and then I and then later I uh I copied it over from my phone into the computer and then I compiled it, and uh and that's just part of my process.

Jonathan O'Connor

Now, Bryce, if you had been listening to Connor's other podcast, you would r understand that uh I think uh iPhones now have uh a BQN IDE uh available to them, isn't that right, Connor? So that would and and BQN I'm sure is is much uh shorter and terser than C. So you'd be able to write your uh your thoughts and your algorithm to Down in a very efficient way.

Bryce

I don't want it to be efficient. There's a phase before I start actually like interacting with a compiler or actually like writing code where I'm I'm really just in an idea phase and I don't have a desire to um I I do think sometimes it'd be great if I could like just use God vault on my phone. That that that's really the thing that that that would be the optimal thing for me because that's what I use on on my my computer. But sometimes like this particular thing, I was just thinking of a synchronization problem, and I really just needed to be able to write it as briefly as possible. Um and also part of that was because I I've been texting um my uh my old colleague Olivier incessantly about this particular uh algorithm and problem and asking him various uh C memory model and CUDA memory model questions, despite the fact that he no longer works in NVIDIA. He's still the the the best source of truth for me about uh memory model semantics. But I do I do uh I do think that that I didn't wanna I didn't want to interrupt and and derail the uh uh uh the podcast recording earlier, but about 10 to 15 minutes into our start of the recording of the podcast, I was staring at my piece of paper and uh I I realized the the the final thing that I think is missing that's that's keeping the code from working. So after this I'm gonna go try it, and I don't know, I feel like it's 80% chance it works. We'll see.

Conor

Famously or not famously, one of the I mean I love running. I mean most most folks that listen to any one of my pride podcasts will know that. I can't help but bringing up my uh running addiction. Um but uh Alan Turing is one of my heroes. Some might know was uh an elite runner in his day as well, and there's some crazy stories about him. Um one of them is I think his his marathon PB was uh 246, which is for those that don't know stuff about running, it's uh 26.2 miles or 42.2 kilometers.

Bryce

PB is personal best.

Conor

Yes, and PB is personal best, which at the time, I mean, there's the world record just got broken at Chicago and is now two hours and 35 seconds, which is absolutely nuts. But at the time, uh he he actually qualified for the 1948 Olympics, and uh the winning time that year was only like 10 minutes faster um than what he was capable of running. And like I don't know the exact distances, but there were just some crazy stories where he would run like upwards of 50 kilometers a day sometimes. Like he would run like 25 kilometers to whatever college he was studying at and then 25 kilometers back. And I'd like to think that some of his, you know, ruminating about ideas and stuff, uh, you know, Bryce mentioning that when he's at the gym, sometimes that's the he has whatever some of his best ideas is there's something something to do with like, you know, people talk about being in the shower or whatever, but I think even better is like when you are just, you know, doing exercise because you get your your heart pumping and blood flowing.

Jonathan O'Connor

And I guess I guess today it's it's because it's the one of the few places where you're not you don't have a screen in front of you.

Conor

Yeah.

Jonathan O'Connor

And so you're not being distracted.

Conor

I mean, that's a great observation. Uh it's true. That is uh I've never thought actually what is the longest period of time where you're not like glancing down at your phone? Like it's maybe one thing if you're switching the song or podcast, but like where you're not, you know, checking Twitter or on some social media platform. Like what is what's the longest that you know, you either you're in a movie maybe for a couple hours, or you're doing physical exercise, or maybe if you're at some kind of family event. Um, but even then, you know, people are always glancing down at their phones below the table, you know, if they if they feel their pocket buzz, you know, oh, it could be could be important. Gotta go check, you know. We could have got sub subpotted. There might be another podcast talking about our podcast.

Jonathan O'Connor

Um, I think that I think that's that's the great thing about uh playing chess. Um like I've I've been playing chess for my whole life about as long as I've been programming. And um and I you cannot you're not allowed to bring a phone or a watch into the playing area with you because for obvious reasons now, because they're much better than than the best players in the world. Um so you don't. And you're there for four hours, five hours playing a uh uh that'd be a long game now, but uh you have no screen, it's just you, your opponent, the board. And uh yeah, you can just it really lets you think and concentrate on a single thing.

Bryce

When when I'm when I'm um you know driving or um I I was walking to a to a store in the city y uh yesterday and um and and just again it's like a another another time when I'm largely free from distractions. I'm sort of on autopilot, and those are some of the times when I do my best work.

Conor

Yeah. Yeah. I was I was talking to to Morton Kronberg, who's the CTO of Dialogue Limited, the company that puts out the main APL uh interpreter when we were driving back from the Minnebrook conference that I was at. And um actually it happened during the conference, is I was going out for runs during the conference, and he was going, he actually had a bike uh that he rented and and was going out on bikes, and he he made some sort of throwaway comment that was like, honestly, it's better for the company if you know daily I'm able to get out, even if it's just for 30 minutes or 45 minutes to do like some light exercise, I will be more productive. Like, even sure, I spent some time, not actually at my desk or whatever doing work, but uh I'm going to be overall more productive in that day, uh, versus if I just sit in front of my desk, but by because the time you hit, you know, for the six-hour mark or seven-hour mark, like the uh, you know, your productivity level is decreasing just because of, you know, uh is lethargy? Is that the right word? I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly. Um whereas if you know you shake things up in the middle of the day or even in the morning, if it's the first thing you do, it like kind of puts you on this like uh whatever the equivalent of like gym high or runners high, or even if you're getting out and going for a walk and like it's it's sunny out and you're you know, blue sky skies and birds chirping, it just like it does, it activates something in your brain, or at least for me that like uh I used to I would wake up at uh 6 or even 5 30 and I'd go do my two hours cardio and then I'd be done like you know, 9 30, 10.

Bryce

And then I would start my work day, and it was just great because one, I would feel like I'd accomplished something. Um, you know, I'd I'd done my workout for the day even before like my day had started. Um that was great. And I'd be awake, I'd feel energized. Um that is slightly less compatible with my current life, but uh yeah. And speaking of just of distractions, you know, it's it uh I'm I'm terrible about you know, I always have my uh phone with me, I'm always checking my phone. Um but my my girlfriend, you know, she she's great about it. She um you know, she doesn't check her phone, you know, almost almost ever. Um almost to the point of it being a problem, but she's she's really good about knowing that like she she needs to be free from distractions.

Jonathan O'Connor

So Bry Bryce, have you turned off notifications or audible notifications on your phone?

Bryce

Oh yeah, yeah, I have. And and if I if I'm um if I'm trying to work and like focus on something, like I'll put it in like do not disturb mode. Um and uh you know, I uh I I can I can never own an Apple Watch um or like a smartwatch or like like anything like that. Um one, because I I love I love um like mechanical watches, but two, it's just like I don't I wouldn't want to have something on me um all the time that's um uh going to give me more of that notification uh uh addiction.

Conor

Yeah, I keep my phone perennially on do not or not do not disturb, but like silent. It like it never buzzes, it never beeps. But like I also have a uh I'm not like a complicated view, but like I think we are all cyborgs now. Like the idea of not having a phone, like I I need my phone. It's like we almost exist in the cyber world on our social media platforms, or like think of how many different messaging platforms are like what's the way that I communicate with my parents and sisters or friends that are in different parts of the world, and like my interaction, like I would say I interact socially more with people like on the internet and and online than I do with like people in real life. Like how I mean, Bryce, how often do we see each other? Yeah, I mean, we joke about like me not coming to see you, but like we do these recordings, I do my other podcast recordings, are all completely done like through the power of technology, and none of that stuff would be possible. I mean, they would be possible to the extent that if there's someone else in the same city as you, you could get together, record stuff. Um, but I just like I I have a like conflicted feeling, like I I don't ever want to be without my phone, you know, uh, because like I feel like it is an extension of who I am as a person. Like when whenever, you know, people back in the day, they used to ask, oh, do you mind if I borrow your phone for like a quick phone call? Like, to me, I feel like that you're asking for like a part of my soul. Like, no, you like you could you could destroy me. Like, if obviously they have the modes where you, you know, only do it for phone calls, but like imagine the harm that you could cause to someone with just like an unlocked phone where you have access to every single one of their social media platforms, and even if it's even if you're not a public person, uh, but the harm that you could do to someone's relationships with someone, because you you can essentially become that person just by having access to their phone. And so, like, I am I never want to like not that I don't trust people, but I I don't really trust people. You know, it's like, would you would you give you know your the essence of who you are to someone for like 20 minutes? And it's like, well, maybe someone you really trust and love, but not not to just anyone. Anyways, I can see Jonathan.

Jonathan O'Connor

Yeah, Connor, I uh because so many films that that are out there show somebody getting into huge trouble because uh they handed their phone to somebody and that person sent a text to everybody on the in their contacts. Yeah. Can you actually do that? Is that actually possible? Was that a thing at uh uh many, many years ago? And I think it's not your phones or something.

Conor

You I mean, definitely when you are uh either if you want to like message blast someone, like when you're sending some, if you want like very easily you can go to your photos app and if you click on a photo and then you go share, when you go to like um Facebook or Meta Messenger or WhatsApp, it will give you just a list of people that you can like check mark of like all the people you want to send this to. I have never done like a a you know message blast, but I wouldn't let's actually just go check. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some way to just go like select all.

Jonathan O'Connor

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can choose all contracts. Yeah, fair enough.

Bryce

My mother seems to solely communicate in group texts with as many people as she can is possibly could be relevant. So I have this like I have like 20 group texts of various groupings of people that my mom has texted at the same time, and then she'll send like she she doesn't know how to send a text to just one person or to send a photo to just one person.

Conor

Yeah, I mean that's uh I feel like uh, you know, when I when I think about my parents, uh more specifically my mother. I know she doesn't listen to this, so she won't mean she won't mind me saying this, but like I I feel like the harm that my mother could do to herself is is limited in her to the extent that you know she she's not gonna be figuring out uh she's not gonna accidentally be doing something because I mean she she famously, I don't I I think maybe she upgraded to a smartphone.

Bryce

But for many years, she was going to these places to get flip phones and oh my my my my dad my dad was the same way, although he and he's he's tech savvy, but he finally he finally got an iPhone after many years. Um it was funny, I had my my mom was visiting me this weekend, and um I mentioned that I've mentioned my mother and my girlfriend on the podcast a few times, and that I don't worry because they don't, you know, they don't listen to the podcast. And both of them did threaten to to listen to my podcast. I think my mom actually listened to some episodes. She's like, oh, like where can I find it? And I'm like, we're available on all platforms. She's like, What wait, you're on Apple Podcasts?

Jonathan O'Connor

I was expecting to see to have your mom on on the on the podcast maybe a year ago. I think that was a pro that was a promise. Yeah, never happened. We were supposed to do that, weren't we? What happened?

Bryce

I don't remember what the logistics of that were, but um uh clearly we forgot. Clearly.

Conor

I mean, we have forgotten, but at the time I think we were trying to orchestrate it, and you had said that your mom was gonna be in New York for a weekend. Uh, but the problem is that my mom was not gonna be because so neither Bryce and I live in the same cities as our mothers. And I think you had made some comment, Bryce, that's saying like it it would be better if both of us with our mothers were behind this, like had the same setup. So it's every everyone is virtual, which I think you said you would prefer not to do, or like both of us were with our moms. Because otherwise, if it's like two people are behind one mic and then two people are behind screens, it's gonna be trickier. I mean, I'm not sure if there'll ever be a weekend where all four of us are in the same place. Be sure to check the show notes either in your podcast app or at adspthepodcast.com for links to anything we mentioned in today's episode, as well as a link to the GitHub discussion where you can leave comments, thoughts, and questions. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed and have a great day.

Bryce

Low quality, high quality. That is the tagline of our podcast.

Conor

That's not the tagline. Our tagline is chaos with sprinkles of information.