

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          How   many   times   were   you   on   CBB   guest?   Uh   two   times   at   least.   And   that   was   the   before   Phil   uh   Teamur   era,   correct?   Uh   yes,   that   was   the   good   era.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:10</time>
      <p>
          Oh   my!   You   just   blew   the   game.   Phil   teamur,   I   I   am   so   I   am   so   sorry.   I   am   so   sorry.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:18</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   sure   he   just   means   good   because   it   used   to   be   weekly   back   then,   and   now   it&#39;s   bi-weekly.   Is   that   what   you   meant?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:22</time>
      <p>
          Oh   yes,   that&#39;s   what   you   meant.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:23</time>
      <p>
          I   must   have   meant   because   they   invited   me.   Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   205,   recorded   on   October   11th,   2024.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   record   live   from   C   Under   the   Sea.   In   this   episode,   we   interview   Phil   Nash   and   Jonathan   Mueller.   Alright,   we&#39;re   here   live   from   the   inaugural   edition   of   C   Under   the   Sea   2024.   I&#39;m   here   with   Bryce,   and   we   are   standing   across   from   the   Nemesis   organizer   of   the   conference,   C   on   C.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:15</time>
      <p>
          He&#39;s   a   very   lovely   film,   actually.   It&#39;s   a   very   lovely   fellow.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:18</time>
      <p>
          But   he&#39;s   got   a   rival   conference   now.   I&#39;m   not   sure   what   he&#39;s   doing   here.   I   mean,   he   he   just   finished   speaking   on   a   talk   he   might   tell   us   a   little   bit   about,   but   my   guess   is   that   you&#39;re   doing   recon   or   some   kind   of   sabotage   tactics.   I&#39;m   gonna   hand   the   mic   over   to   Bryce   and   you   can   conduct   this   interview.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:33</time>
      <p>
          We   are   here   in   lovely   Breda?   Brita?   How   do   we   say   it?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:37</time>
      <p>
          I   think   it&#39;s   Brita,   but   uh   let&#39;s   ask   Phil.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:41</time>
      <p>
          So,   Phil,   what&#39;s   what&#39;s   your   story?   What   are   you   doing   here?
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>1:44</time>
      <p>
          Well,   you&#39;ve   sort   of   given   the   game   away.   This   is   a   bit   of   a   reconnaissance   mission,   so   I   need   to   see   what   I&#39;m   up   against.   No,   no,   I&#39;m   uh   I&#39;m   really   supportive   of   this   brand   new   conference.   Seems   to   be   going   really   well.   Glad   to   be   a   part   of   the   first   edition.   I   actually   did   a   workshop   yesterday   as   well,   so   um   what   was   your   workshop?   It   was   on   coroutines.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:04</time>
      <p>
          It   sold   out,   so   a   lot   of   interest.   Yeah,   sure.   A   sold-out   workshop.   How   many   people   did   you   have   in   your   workshop?   Uh   20.   What   why   do   you   think   people   are   so   interested   in   learning   about   coroutines?
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>2:15</time>
      <p>
          Uh   it&#39;s   interesting   you   asked   that   because   I   asked   them   at   the   start   of   the   day,   what   are   you   actually   here   for?   What   are   you   looking   to   get   out   of   it?   And   uh   everyone   had   a   different   story.   Some   of   them   were   just   interested   in   it,   uh,   somebody   had   specific   use   cases   in   mind,   and   others   just   wanted   to   see   if   it   was   going   to   help   with   their   particular   project.   And   there&#39;s   one   or   two   people   that   had   some   misconceptions   that   we   needed   to   clear   up   as   well.   So   uh   the   usual   mix.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:38</time>
      <p>
          I   probably   could   have   used   that   workshop   because   every   time   I   look   at   curative   teams   and   try   to   understand   how   the   machinery   works,   my   my   head   explodes.   It&#39;s   very,   it&#39;s   very   complex,   Phil.   It&#39;s   very   complex.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>2:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   there&#39;s   not   a   lot   of   complexity   there,   and   where   it   is   complex,   that&#39;s   to   match   the   complexity   of   the   problem   you&#39;re   trying   to   solve.   The   problem   is   there&#39;s   just   so   many   moving   parts   and   things   you   need   to   understand   before   you   can   actually   get   it   to   work.   So   my   approach,   which   is   not   unique   to   me,   I&#39;ve   seen   other   people   do   this   as   well,   is   just   use   the   compiler   to   tell   you   what   the   next   thing   you   need   to   implement   is.   Even   if   you   don&#39;t   actually   understand   what   it&#39;s   for   yet,   it   gets   you   to   that   point   where   you   can   see   something   running   and   then   start   to   page   fault   in   all   of   the   other   knowledge.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:22</time>
      <p>
          Can   you   do   you   know   what   symmetric   transfer   is?   Lewis   talks   about   symmetric   transfer   a   bunch,   and   I   I   don&#39;t   really   understand   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>3:31</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   actually   a   fairly   simple   concept.   So   at   the   point   that   you   are   suspended,   there&#39;s   a   certain   function   called   await   suspend   that   gets   called   on   your   awaiter.   And   the   return   type   of   await   suspend   dictates   what   happens   next.   So   if   you   return   void   or   um   a   Boolean   with   the   true   value,   then   it   says   um   okay,   we   can   we   can   suspend   return   control   back   to   the   cooler.   That&#39;s   what   usually   happens,   that&#39;s   like   the   default.   If   you   turn   false   and   it   says   don&#39;t   suspend,   and   it   goes   back   to   the   to   the   coroutine.   But   you   can   also   return   the   coroutine   handle   of   another   coroutine.   And   then   what   it&#39;ll   do   is   it   will   just   resume   that   coroutine   while   this   one   is   suspended.   And   very   often   that   coroutine   ball   sort   of   had   a   symbiotic   relationship   and   resume   the   first   one   again,   so   they   go   maybe   in   a   cycle,   there   may   be   a   whole   chain   of   them,   or   there   may   be   an   external   scheduler   perhaps   in   the   waiter.   However,   you   do   it,   you   can   sequence   coroutines   together   without   consuming   any   additional   stack   space   without   the   overhead   of   calling   back   up   the   stack   to   the   caller   who&#39;s   going   to   do   it   all   from   there   anyway.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>4:34</time>
      <p>
          Curoutines   resuming   coroutines.   Yeah,   it&#39;s   the   cycle,   the   cycles   of   the   coroutines   that   always   throws   me   off.   It&#39;s   a   little   hard   to   think   about.   Have   you   tried   using   coroutines,   Connor?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:46</time>
      <p>
          I   have   not.   I&#39;m   waiting   for   library   support.   I   saw   I   think   generator.   That   shipped.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>4:51</time>
      <p>
          We   have   generator.   And   I   demonstrated   it   yesterday.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:56</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   I   haven&#39;t   figured   it   out.   I&#39;ve   heard   library   support&#39;s   coming.   It&#39;s   I   feel   like   it&#39;s   a   I   don&#39;t   think   it&#39;s   actually   similar   to   Lambdas,   because   Lambdas   were   understandable   even   though   they   were   only   half   baked   in   11,   and   then   once   we   got   to   14,   it   was   fully.   I   feel   like   in   this   case,   coroutines   are   this   complicated   language   feature   that   honestly   we   aren&#39;t   expecting   most   people   to   use   as   a   language   feature.   We&#39;re   gonna   have   library   implementers   that   are   gonna   be   shipping   library   features,   and   then   it&#39;s   gonna   be   much   easier   for   folks   to   consume   coroutine-esque   and   you   know   things   that   are   built   on   top   of   it.   That&#39;s   what   I   wait   for.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>5:29</time>
      <p>
          What   are   the   other   library   pieces   that   you   think   are   missing?
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>5:32</time>
      <p>
          So   a   generator   is   a   particular   type   of   coroutine   that   has   co-yield   in   it,   usually   in   a   loop.   And   that   generalizes   really   easily.   And   even   that   was   actually   quite   complex   to   standardize   for   reasons.   But   the   other   type   of   coroutine   we   usually   call   a   task,   although   it&#39;s   a   bit   more   general   than   that.   It&#39;s   not   just   called   task.   The   trouble   is   there&#39;s   no   single   semantic   for   what   that   task   actually   is.   So   sometimes   it&#39;s   just   going   to   be   something   you   can   um   suspend   and   resume   at   different   points,   maybe   cooperatively   multi-task   with   other   tasks.   Or   it   could   be   that   it&#39;s   waiting   for   a   resource   to   load   over   the   network   or   from   a   file   system   or   user   input,   uh,   whatever   it&#39;s   awaiting   on.   You   can   even   use   uh   coroutines   to   await   on   std   optional   or   std   expected   and   use   it   as   a   way   to   do   monadic   error   handling.   Because   coroutines   themselves   actually   model   monads,   so   monads   are   effectively   interchangeable   in   that   sense.   So   lots   of   different   uses.   That&#39;s   why   it&#39;s   really   hard   to   really   pin   down   a   specific   implementation   for   the   standard.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>6:35</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;re   gonna   need   at   least   So   this   uh   this   uh   task   thing,   which   has   also   been   called   std   lazy   at   some   points.   So   what   is   it?   Is   it   an   awaitable?   Is   it   a   uh   you   know   a   co-routine   itself?   Like   what   sort   of   thing   is   it?   How   would   somebody   use   this   thing?   Like   what   would   be   a   use   case   for   it?
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>6:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   that&#39;s   this   is   where   getting   into   what   it   actually   is   starts   to   reveal   some   of   that   complexity   under   the   hood.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>6:57</time>
      <p>
          Wait,   wait,   wait,   wait.   So   we   we   want   this   thing,   but   we   don&#39;t   really   know   what   this   thing   is.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>7:03</time>
      <p>
          Once   we   have   it,   once   we   have   standard   versions,   as   long   as   it   matches   the   semantics,   you   want   you   won&#39;t   have   to   worry   about   what&#39;s   under   the   hood   anymore.   But   to   understand   what   it&#39;s   doing   right   now,   you   do   have   to.   So   the   task   itself   is   something   you   write,   and   it&#39;s   really   just   your   interface   to   the   coroutine.   So   the   low-level   interface   is   the   coroutine   handle,   and   you   also   get   this   thing   called   the   promise   type   that   sort   of   serves   two   roles,   so   the   coroutine   machinery   calls   into   that,   but   you   can   also   store   things   in   there   and   get   things   out   again.   So   it&#39;s   like   where   you   store   things   shuffling   to   and   from   a   coroutine.   But   rather   than   expose   all   that   low-level   complexity   to   the   end   user,   you   wrap   it   all   up   in   this   task   type,   and   that   gives   you   a   nice   sort   of   semantic-driven   interface   that   matches   what   you   want   to   do.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>7:47</time>
      <p>
          So   it   is   an   abstraction   around   the   coroutine   handle.   The   coroutine   handle   and   the   promise   type.   And   and   the   promise   thing.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>7:54</time>
      <p>
          I   think   the   best   solution   here   is   next   time   you   see   Phil&#39;s   name   or   even   another   individual   giving   a   training   session   or   a   workshop   at   a   conference.   You   just   gotta   go   sign   up,   go   to   the   conference.   Speaking   of   which,   you   are   the   organizer   we   mentioned   of   the   Arch   nemesis.   I   mean,   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   the   conference   is   our   rivals,   but   at   least   in   ADSP   lore,   they   will   be   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>8:13</time>
      <p>
          Can   we   even   mention   the   name   of   his   conference   or   will   they   kick   us   out   of   this   one?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>8:16</time>
      <p>
          Oh   no,   we   definitely   can   do   whatever   we   want.   It&#39;s   our   podcast.   Uh   so   C   on   C,   which   is   actually   the   last   time   I   believe   we   interviewed   you,   uh,   was   live   at   that   conference.   Since   then,   you&#39;ve   also   launched   two   more   conferences,   I   believe.   C   online.   So   C   on   C   was   in   Folkestone,   still   is   in   Folkestone.   It   just   finished   happening,   I   believe,   in   June.   And   you   also   have   now   C   online,   which   is   an   online   conference,   and   I   actually   don&#39;t   know   what   the   name   of   the   Swift   conference   is.   I&#39;m   gonna   guess   it&#39;s   Swift   something.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>8:45</time>
      <p>
          Yes,   so   uh   launched   uh   Swift   something   this   year.   Why   is   Swift   conference?   Uh   well   first   of   all   it&#39;s   Swift   Craft.   Swift   C   is   the   name.   And   I   I   did   a   lot   of   Swift   some   years   ago   now.   Well,   I   started   with   Objective   C   uh   writing   writing.   My   sympathies.   Objective   C   is   very   misunderstood.   It&#39;s   got   some   good   stuff.   But   most   of   that   good   stuff   actually   transferred   to   Swift,   so   that&#39;s   good.   Not   all   of   it.   Uh   we&#39;re   still   missing   some   stuff.   But   um   no,   Swift   was   a   great   language   when   it   came   out.   But   those   of   us   sort   of   watching   for   it   couldn&#39;t   believe   how   good   it   was   compared   to   what   we   had   before.   Uh   so   I   really   got   into   it   in   the   early   days,   maybe   a   little   bit   too   much,   got   a   bit   burnt   by   the   um   the   bugs   in   the   early   support   and   lack   of   features,   uh,   and   then   stopped   doing   that   as   a   side   project   for   a   while.   So   I   drifted   away   from   it   and   trying   to   get   back   into   it.   But   I   built   up   connections   in   the   Swift   community,   I   know   lots   of   people   there.   Uh   there&#39;s   some   it&#39;s   a   great   community   as   well,   and   uh   there&#39;s   some   some   great   talks   in   that   community,   so   I   just   wanted   to   bring   that   back   to   uh   the   Southeast   UK   area   where   there   used   to   be   an   iOS   conference   that   went   away   pre-pandemic,   uh,   and   there   seems   to   be   a   bit   of   a   gap   in   the   market.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>9:59</time>
      <p>
          I   was   Phil   and   I   were   talking   last   night,   and   I&#39;ve   got   this   project   that   I   want   to   start,   and   I&#39;d   like   to   use   Tristan&#39;s   Flux   library,   but   my   question   was,   you   know,   what   should   I   what   should   I   do?   Because   I   I&#39;m   dearly   missing   pattern   matching,   uh   proper   language,   some   type,   Stedvarian   doesn&#39;t   cut   it.   And   uh   I   asked,   you   know,   what   should   I   do   if   I   want   to   stay   in   C,   and   what   did   you   tell   me,   Phil?
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>10:24</time>
      <p>
          I   said   USwift.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>10:27</time>
      <p>
          And   I   said,   the   the   question   was   about   C.   And   and   Phil   said,   no,   yes,   my   answer   is   USwift.   And   uh   there   you   go,   folks.   Uh   he&#39;s   the   runner   of   two   C.   And   we   failed   to   mention   the   current   co-host   of   CPPCast   and   the   former   co-host   of   like   multiple   other   C   podcasts.   Link   in   the   show   notes   if   you   want   to   go   listen   to   the   backlog.   Uh   to   wrap   this   up,   what   can   you   tell   us?   Uh   I   I   I   know   uh   you   said   things   haven&#39;t   launched,   but   this   is   gonna   be   released   in   probably   two   weeks.   So   today   is   October   10th,   17th,   24th,   so   probably   in   the   last   week   of   October.   Just   keep   that   in   mind   based   on   when   this   is   gonna   come   out.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>11:08</time>
      <p>
          So,   what   was   the   question   again?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:09</time>
      <p>
          Uh   so   like   what   can   you   tell   us   about   uh   C   online?   Because   I   know   that&#39;s   was   in   February   last   year,   is   call   for   papers,   uh   registration.   You   know,   what   is   the   uh   state   of   conferences   that   you   will   be   organizing   in   2025   for   folks   listening   to   this   in   October   slash   November   of   2024?
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>11:26</time>
      <p>
          Right,   yeah,   so   C   online,   by   the   time   you   hear   this,   the   call   for   speakers   should   be   open.   Technically,   it&#39;s   actually   online   right   now.   If   you   go   to   speak.cpponline.uk,   uh   you   can   actually   register   and   submit   your   proposals   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:40</time>
      <p>
          With   secret   link.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>11:41</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   with   secret   link.   There   you   go.   Same   as   last   year,   so   not   that   secret.   But   uh   it   just   hasn&#39;t   been   formally   announced   yet   because   we   just   haven&#39;t   got   around   to   it.   Because   I&#39;ve   been   preparing   for   this   workshop   and   this   conference.   So   next   week,   that   should   go   out.   Uh   that&#39;ll   be   all   online.   Um   should   be   running   the   last   week   of   February,   if   I   remember   that   right   off   the   top   of   my   head.   C   on   C   will   open   a   bit   later.   Currently,   as   we   speak   here,   October   10th,   ACCU   call   for   speakers   is   also.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:06</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   just   saw   that,   yeah.   A   little   early   this   year,   I   think.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>12:10</time>
      <p>
          Um   so   we&#39;ve   opened   it   earlier   than   last   year,   but   that   was   mostly   because   last   year   we   opened   a   bit   late.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:15</time>
      <p>
          Ah,   I   understand,   I   understand.   Now,   is   CPP   on   C   this   year   not   going   to   be   over   a   major   US   holiday   weekend?
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>12:23</time>
      <p>
          Uh   no,   it&#39;s   the   last   week   in   June.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:26</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   the   last   week   in   June.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:27</time>
      <p>
          Uh   was   it   was   it   uh   was   it   uh   what   do   you   call   that,   America   Day,   Independence?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:32</time>
      <p>
          It   was   July   4th,   and   flights   were   too   expensive   for   rice,   which   is   saying   something.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:39</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   mean,   was   Sean   was   how   I   mean   uh   how   was   uh   2024   CVP   on   C?   Was   Sean   there?   Because   I   remember   we   had   a   great   time   interviewing   Sean.   Still   one   of   the   highlights   of   the   podcast.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:48</time>
      <p>
          It   is   probably   my   favorite   C   conference   right   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:51</time>
      <p>
          Whoa,   look   at   that.   Look   at   that.   That   is   breaking   news,   folks.   I   didn&#39;t   even   know   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>12:56</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   well   I   guess   my   vote.   Uh   no,   Sean   wasn&#39;t   there   last   uh   this   year.   Um   maybe   he&#39;ll   be   there   next   year.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:05</time>
      <p>
          Well,   maybe   maybe   we&#39;ll   all   maybe   we&#39;ll   interview   you   again   at   CPP   on   C.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:10</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   we&#39;ll   have   to   we&#39;ll   have   to   do   a   reunion   at   some   point.   Yeah.   Get   Sean,   the   three   of   us   back   together.   We&#39;ll   have   uh   wine   like   we   did   last   time.   Wait,   wait,   there   was   wine?   Do   you   remember   we   got   kicked   when   we   had   dinner?   We   got   kicked   out   of   the   place   because   they   were   they   were   wrapping   up   and   uh   and   like   we   were   taking   our   wine.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:29</time>
      <p>
          Oh   god,   I   do   remember   that.   I   tweeted   pictures.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:32</time>
      <p>
          I   had   a   uh   reasonable   amount   of   wine,   and   then   Sean   took   the   wine   bottle   and   was   like,   nah,   you   gotta   have   some   more   there.   And   uh   still   one   of   the   highlights   of   uh   of   my   professional   career.   It   was   very   professional.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:41</time>
      <p>
          Sean   Parent   trying   to   get   you   drunk   was   one   of   the   highlights   of   your   career.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:44</time>
      <p>
          It   was   a   it   was   a   great   night.   It   was   a   great   night.   Uh   and   we   he   like   silently   launched   without   letting   people   know   was   it   Val,   now   Hilo?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:52</time>
      <p>
          Something,   yeah,   I   think   so,   yeah.   There   are   C   talks   as   well.   There   are   also   C   talks.   There&#39;s   very   good   content   at   the   conference,   which   is   why   I   like   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:01</time>
      <p>
          The   hallway   track   is   always   the   best   track,   though,   folks.   Especially   the   more   and   more   conferences   you   go   to,   it   becomes   the   thing   that   is   most   unique.   Because   at   some   point   you&#39;ve   seen   the   talk   about   X   and   talk   about   Y.   If   it&#39;s   your   first   conference,   you&#39;ll   be   thrilled   by   the   talks.   But   then   after   your   fifth,   sixth   conference,   it&#39;s   the   hallway   track   that&#39;s   always   like   unique   to   each   conference.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:21</time>
      <p>
          You   should   definitely,   you   should   definitely   go   to   more   C   conferences,   especially   C   on   C.   And   Phil   only   pays   us   a   very   reasonable   commission   to   say   all   these   nice   things   about   its   conference.   Well,   you&#39;re   not   to   say   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:34</time>
      <p>
          Alright,   we&#39;ve   got   10   minutes.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:36</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;ve   got   10   minutes,   we   gotta   go.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:37</time>
      <p>
          So,   yeah,   we&#39;ll   see   you   around,   Phil.   Thanks   for   being   interviewed.   And   um   we   will   either   go   find   Kuhn   now   or   Flores   Bob.   But   yeah,   we&#39;ll   see   you   around,   Phil.   We&#39;re   here   with   ThinkSell   employee   Jonathan.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:53</time>
      <p>
          In   front   of   the   ThinkCell   booth.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:56</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   how&#39;s   it   going?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>14:57</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   going   great.   Have   you   seen   any   talks   or   have   you   been   just   busy?   No,   I&#39;ve   seen   the   keynote   and   then   I   spent   the   second   time   slot   writing   a   paper   since   I   was   told   the   deadline   is   coming   up.   Wow,   that&#39;s   efficient   use   of   your   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:10</time>
      <p>
          The   deadline   is   c   the   deadline   is   in   fact   coming   up.   What   was   your   paper?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>15:14</time>
      <p>
          So   I&#39;m   working   on   a   paper   to   uh   decouple   the   meta   header   from   reflection   from   the   rest   of   the   standard   library   to   make   it   more   widely   used   in   context   where   people   don&#39;t   like   the   standard   library.   I&#39;m   just   gonna   give   it   a   shot.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:27</time>
      <p>
          What   does   that   even   mean,   decouple   it   from   the   standard   library?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>15:30</time>
      <p>
          Also,   should   we   back   up   for   two   seconds?   Because   technically   you   do   get   mentioned   in   one   of   the   guest   lists,   I   think   on   the   C   on   C   interview   chaotic   thing   we   did   like   a   year   and   a   half   ago.   But   that   like,   I   think   you   had   all   of   half   of   a   sentence,   but   I   thought   it   was   worth   putting   you   like   in   the   guest   interviewed.   We   asked   you   a   question   and   you   had   like   a   four-word   answer.   But   other   than   that,   I   don&#39;t   think   we&#39;ve   actually   ever   interviewed   you.   So   introduce   yourself,   then   we&#39;ll   go   back   to   this   meta   decoupling   paper   writing   thing.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>16:00</time>
      <p>
          Are   we   gonna   cut   that   or   is   this   just   an   out-of-order   podcast?   Out-of-order   podcast,   okay.   I&#39;m   Jonathan,   you   know   me   from   the   four   center   four   words   I   said   on   the   previous   episode   on   the   C   podcast.   Must   have   been   very   important.   Now   I   work   at   Things   and   I&#39;m   a   software   engineer,   you   know   me   from   a   blog,   Furnathan.net   or   something.   I   I&#39;m   assuming   Does   your   audience   know   me?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:23</time>
      <p>
          Yes.   I   think   80%   of   the   audience   does   know   you   because   you&#39;ve   also   been   uh   a   one-time,   two-time   guest   on   C   Bvcast,   three   time?   How   many   times   were   you   on   C   Bvcast?   Uh   two   times   at   least.   And   that   was   the   before   Phil   uh   teamer   era,   correct?   Uh   yes,   that   was   the   good   era.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:40</time>
      <p>
          Oh   my!   You   just   blew   the   game.   Phil   teamer,   I   I   am   so   I   am   so   sorry.   I   am   so   sorry.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:48</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   sure   he   just   means   good   because   it   used   to   be   weekly   back   then,   and   now   it&#39;s   bi-weekly.   Is   that   what   you   meant?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:52</time>
      <p>
          Oh   yes,   that&#39;s   what   you   meant.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>16:53</time>
      <p>
          I   must   have   meant   because   they   invited   me.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:55</time>
      <p>
          You&#39;re   you&#39;re   not   gonna   get   you&#39;re   not   gonna   get   invited   back   a   fourth   time.   I   don&#39;t   think.   So   what   does   uh   what   does   ThinkCell   do?   You   were   explaining   this   to   me   at   dinner   last   night,   and   you   did   a   pretty   good   job.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:06</time>
      <p>
          Aren&#39;t   we   supposed   to   go   back   to   the   meta   well   okay   now   we&#39;re   doing   just   out   of   the   state?   Because   it&#39;s   his   introduction   there,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:10</time>
      <p>
          You   know,   he   said   he   works   at   ThinkCell.   People   don&#39;t   know   what   that   is.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>17:13</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   we   uh   sell   a   plugin   for   PowerPoint   that   makes   it   like   easier   to   create   slides   and   charts.   We&#39;re   like   the   standard   for   all   the   consultants   and   everybody   who   you   know   makes   a   living   doing   PowerPoint   slides   because   it&#39;s   just   so   much   faster   to   create   slides   with   a   product.   And   I   think   I&#39;ve   said   slides   enough   to   earn   my   salary   for   this   month.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:30</time>
      <p>
          You   you   are   here   with   like   the   marketing   and   recruiting   part   of   your   company.   Alright,   so   back   to   back   to   your   paper.   So   the   standard   library   the   the   C   standard   doesn&#39;t   say   anything   about   the   structure   of   the   standard   library.   That&#39;s   left   up   to   the   implementation.   What   do   you   mean   by   decoupling   meta   from   the   rest   of   the   library?   Do   you   mean   like   removing   dependencies?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>17:50</time>
      <p>
          Uh   yes,   it&#39;s   about   dependencies.   So   like   meta   is   one   of   those   headers   that   you   cannot   implement   yourself.   You   need   like   compiler   built-ins   for   that.   And   there   are   like   many   people   that   don&#39;t   use   the   standard   library   yet   still   want   to   use   reflection.   For   example,   the   the   function   like   members   of   or   whatever   is   the   current   name   with   all   the   private   shenanigans   going   on,   I   haven&#39;t   kept   up   with   that.   Returns   a   vector   of   meta   info   objects.   It   does   it   at   compile   time,   so   like   you   don&#39;t   have   to   pay   any   dynamic   memory   allocation,   but   you   still   pull   in   the   entire   include   of   the   vector   and   require   like   an   implementation   of   vector,   even   at   compile   time.   Um   and   there&#39;s   also   some   concerns   by   like   implementers   that   it&#39;s   like   because   essentially   the   thing   wraps   like   a   compiler   built-in   that   just   gives   you   like   a   point   under   size,   and   then   you   have   to   somehow   turn   that   into   a   vector,   and   this   is   quite   expensive.   The   advantage   is   that   you   then   can   call   pushback   on   it,   but   in   the   vast   majority   of   cases   you   just   need   it   as   a   range   and   iterator   with,   so   it   doesn&#39;t   really   have   to   be   a   vector.   It   can   be   like   an   implementation-defined   type.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>18:41</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   that&#39;s   fine.   You   so   you   essentially   you   want   it   to   be   more   of   like   a   freestanding   header.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>18:46</time>
      <p>
          I   want   it   to   be   more   freestanding.   Technically,   like   vector   at   compile   time   is   freestanding,   but   like   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   still   like   a   thing   that   people   have   to   do.   Um   the   more   controversial   parts   is   uh   stuff   like   whether   name   of   should   return   a   string   view   or   a   char   pointer.   Uh   and   things   like   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>18:59</time>
      <p>
          It   should   review   uh   a   string   view   or   a   char   pointer?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>19:02</time>
      <p>
          Right   now   it   returns   the   string   view,   and   I&#39;m   proposing   that   it   returns   a   char   pointer   and   just   having   that   poll   and   see   what   happens.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:08</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I   think   we   do   have   some   other   interfaces   lower   like   what   is   what   is   source   location   return?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>19:13</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   exactly.   Source   location   returns   a   const   char   pointer.   I   don&#39;t   know   what   contract   does.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:17</time>
      <p>
          Uh   I   don&#39;t   that&#39;s   not   real   yet.   So   um   so   so   what   was   the   reason   that   source   since   source   location   is   fairly   new.   What   was   the   reason   that   it   returns   uh   uh   const   cow   char?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>19:28</time>
      <p>
          Uh   I&#39;m   assuming   it&#39;s   to   avoid   pulling   in   string   view.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:31</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I&#39;m   pretty   sure   that   that&#39;s   right.   Yeah,   and   I   think   it   may   have   also   been   something   about   the   implementation   concerns   too.   And   it   was   like   considered   fine   because   it&#39;s   a   uh   it&#39;s   just   like   a   string   constant,   like   a   compile   time   constant.   It&#39;s   always   what   it   is.   Yeah,   I   don&#39;t   know,   you   might   you   might   win   that   particular   set   of   uh   debates.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>19:50</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah,   we   have   to   see.   Like   you   can   like   some   of   the   API   like   the   the   the   adding   like   some   of   the   APS   they&#39;re   they   keep   adding   are   like   really   tricky   and   they   pull   in   like   a   whole   bunch   of   ranges   machinery,   and   changing   that   in   a   way   without   having   to   pull   in   the   ranges   machinery   is   a   bit   tricky.   And   if   like   if   you&#39;re   pulling   in   ranges,   then   what&#39;s   the   point   about   SpringView   anyway?   So   there   is   some   uh   as   I   said,   I   like   started   writing   this   paper   like   an   hour   ago.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:16</time>
      <p>
          So   will   will   uh   there   be   a   paper   number   by   October   24th   for   us   to   include   in   the   show   notes?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:24</time>
      <p>
          There   probably   already   is   a   paper   number.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:25</time>
      <p>
          There   already   is   a   paper   number.   If   if   you   walk   a   bit   over   there,   I   can   let&#39;s   walk.   Also,   do   we   win   any   of   this   free   stuff?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:32</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   already   you   know,   I   already   have   so   many   ThinkSell   socks.   I&#39;m   just   not   taking   any   more   ThinkSell   socks.
      </p>

        <cite>Phil Nash</cite>
      <time>20:38</time>
      <p>
          You   can   get   them.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:39</time>
      <p>
          We   don&#39;t   just   get   them?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:40</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   I&#39;m   good,   I&#39;ve   already   got   them.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>20:42</time>
      <p>
          The   paper   number   is   uh   4329.   4329,   folks.   And   if   you   don&#39;t   know   the   trick,   it&#39;s   wg21.link   slash   p   and   then   the   paper   number.   Or   is   it   P   slash   the   paper   number?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:57</time>
      <p>
          I   remember   I   remember   before   there   were   P   numbers.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>21:00</time>
      <p>
          I   remember   4,000   papers   ago   before   it&#39;s   news   to   me   that   Vice   was   born   when   there   were   before   P   numbers.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:07</time>
      <p>
          Alright,   we   got   three   minutes   until   the   next   talk.   It&#39;s   lunchtime,   folks,   in   case   we   haven&#39;t   mentioned.   Uh   we   were   actually   trying   to   get   Jason   Turner,   the   first   keynote   speaker   of   the   day,   but   because   he   is   leaving   quickly   after   the   conference   ends,   the   final   keynote.   So   we   only   have   the   break   at   three   o&#39;clock,   I   believe,   till   three   thirty   local   time   to   hunt   him   down.   Thank   you   so   much,   Jonathan,   for   being   on   the   podcast   for   more   than   just   a   single   sentence.   Any   final   words   to   share   with   our   C   slash   non-c   listeners?   The   mic   is   yours.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>21:40</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   kind   of   regretting   this   because   I   now   have   to   finish   writing   the   paper.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:45</time>
      <p>
          Well,   you   already   had   the   number,   so   whether   it   got   into   this   mailing,   it   would   have   got   into   a   mailing   at   some   point,   but.   And   no,   not   if   you   never   press   submit.   I&#39;ve   forgotten   a   couple   of   numbers.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:54</time>
      <p>
          Every   committee   member   has   a   collection   of   paper   numbers   that   they   haven&#39;t   submitted   more.   And   you   and   you   know   it   too,   because   every   now   and   then,   like,   you   see   like   a   like   P   like0700   gets   published,   and   it&#39;s   like   next   to   like   all   the   4,000   papers,   and   you&#39;re   like,   what   happened   here?   And   it&#39;s   like,   oh   well,   somebody   had   an   idea   back   in   2018   and   they   just   never   got   around   to   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>22:14</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   actually,   when   I   like   opened   the   GitHub   repository   with   my   papers,   I   saw   a   bunch   of   like   completely   unstaged   papers   that   I&#39;ve   started   writing   like   over   a   year   ago,   and   I   have   absolutely   no   memory   of   me   doing   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>22:26</time>
      <p>
          I   I   also   save   some   good   paper   numbers,   so   I   got   a   I   got   a   couple   good   ones,   and   like   I   just   I   have   my   old   paper   numbers   that   I   reserved,   I&#39;ve   just   like   they&#39;re   just   now   now   reserved,   like   in   case   I   need   like   to   publish   some   really   impactful   paper,   so   people   will   have   a   good   number.   I   got   s   and   sometimes   I   email   the   uh   the   admin   chairs   and   like,   hey,   like   can   you   give   me   this   paper   number?   So   I   got   some   of   the   good   ones.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:49</time>
      <p>
          Alright,   folks,   you   heard   it   here.   The   broken   process   of   uh   paper   number,   you   know.   I   don&#39;t   know   what   to   say.   We&#39;ll   see   you   around   at   the   conference.   Hopefully,   I   don&#39;t   know,   you&#39;ll   be   at   the   final   keynote   at   least,   I   imagine.   Uh   yeah?
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>23:01</time>
      <p>
          Uh   yeah,   I   don&#39;t   plan   on   leaving   until   tomorrow.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>23:04</time>
      <p>
          Okay.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:04</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;ll   see   you   around   then.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>23:06</time>
      <p>
          I   can   pretend   to   be   Jason   Turner   if   you   can&#39;t   find   him.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>23:09</time>
      <p>
          I   would   like   to   hear   your   Jason   Turner   impression.
      </p>

        <cite>Jonathan Müller</cite>
      <time>23:11</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   getting   my   life   choices.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:15</time>
      <p>
          Be   sure   to   check   these   show   notes   either   in   your   podcast   app   or   at   adspthepodcast.com   for   links   to   anything   we   mentioned   in   today&#39;s   episode,   as   well   as   a   link   to   a   GitHub   discussion   where   you   can   leave   thoughts,   comments,   and   questions.   Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>23:28</time>
      <p>
          Low   quality,   high   quality,   that   is   the   tagline   of   our   podcast.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:33</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   not   the   tagline.   Our   tagline   is   chaos   with   sprinkles   of   information.
      </p>