

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          I   don&#39;t   know,   are   we   an   AI   podcast   now?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:02</time>
      <p>
          No,   although   I   will   say   I   have   a   hard   time   getting   excited   about   conversations   where   I&#39;m   not   allowed   to   mention   AI.   What   does   it   even   mean   to   be   talking   about   anything,   not   in   the   context   of   like   what   is   gonna   potentially   be   the   biggest   like   paradigm   shift   of   our   lifetimes?   Do   programming   languages   even   matter   now?   Like   obviously   they   do,   but   like   as   as   someone   who   is   a   huge   PL   enthusiast,   I   now   find   myself   caring   less   about   language   paradigms   and   and   like   I   already   kind   of   know   a   lot   of   that   stuff,   but   it&#39;s   just   like   when   I   can   get   a   program   to   do   all   the   heavy   lifting   for   me,   why   do   I   care?   I   want   I   want   the   language   that&#39;s   gonna   work   best   with   that   tool.   If   that&#39;s   JavaScript   instead   of   Python,   I   prefer   JavaScript.   If   that&#39;s   Rust   instead   of   C,   I   prefer   Rust,   you   know?   Like   it&#39;s   sure,   I   used   to   like   one   language   versus   the   others   for   reasons   X,   Y,   and   Z,   but   now   that   was   because   I   was   the   one   having   to   do   the   typing   and   the   iterating.   I&#39;m   not   doing   that   anymore.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   the   LLMs   that   are   doing   it.   So   it&#39;s   like   uh   in   a   world   where   you   are   building   libraries   and   languages,   I   feel   like   the   number   one   thing   we   should   care   about   is   like   how   do   these   interact   with   LLMs?   Like,   is   are   we   making   it   more   difficult   or   worse?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:08</time>
      <p>
          This   has   been   I   I&#39;ve   been   making   this   point   to   a   lot   of   a   lot   of   people   that   we   need   to   start   thinking   about   how   do   we   design   libraries,   how   do   we   design   software,   how   do   we   design   docs   to   be   consumable   by   LLMs.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:27</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   245,   recorded   on   July   1st,   2025.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   continue   part   two   of   our   two-part   chat   about   AI,   how   it&#39;s   changing   the   way   we   work,   and   more.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:45</time>
      <p>
          So   so   so   let&#39;s   just   get   into   another   question,   which   is   um   another   topic   rather,   which   is   what   are   your   practices   and   techniques   for   debugging   issues   with   that   you   have   with   models?   And   I&#39;ll   give   you   one   example   um   of   a   thing   that   I&#39;ve   started   doing   recently,   which   is   when   I   ha   I&#39;m   working   with   a   model   and   it   persistently   disregards   instructions   that   I&#39;ve   given   it,   I   it&#39;s   I   will   instead   of   just   try   and   find   the   right   set   of   instructions   to   get   it   to   listen   to   me,   I   will   sometimes   ask   it   to   explain   why   it   did   not   do   what   I   um   what   I   wanted.   Um   and   I   found   this   to   be   very   helpful.   As   an   example,   I   was   I   was   uh   using   I   think   perplexity   and   then   O3   um   uh   uh   to   like   prepare   like   a   a   markdown   deep   research   type   report   on   something.   And   I   told   it   like   in   my   prompt,   um,   like   prepare   me   like   like   a   markdown   report,   like   research   this   topic   and   prepare   me   a   markdown   file   on   this.   And   in   the   markdown   file,   um   uh   make   sure   to   cite   your   sources,   but   you   must   cite   them   as   markdown   style   links.   So   the   the   square   brackets   with   the   text   and   then   the   friends   with   the   the   URL   to   the   thing.   Uh,   do   not   include   your   own   citations.   And   the   way   that   uh   Chat   GPT   and   Perplexity,   they   both   have   this   format   for   citations   where   they   have   a   little   superscript   like   um   number,   like   you   know,   a   superscript   one,   two,   three,   and   you   click   on   those   and   then   that   little   they   have   some   UI   feature   where   that   opens   up   a   little   box   that   shows   you   the   source.   And   I   told   it,   like,   I   don&#39;t   want   that,   I   want   you   to   cite   sources,   but   don&#39;t   put   these   these   little   um   uh   superscript   citations   in.   And   I   also   told   it   in   the   markdown   file,   no   Unicode.   Because   I   don&#39;t   want   the   m-dashes,   I   don&#39;t   want   you   to   use   emojis,   and   also   like   I   don&#39;t   want   you   to   do   the   superscript   thing.   Like   just   make   it   like   an   ASCII   markdown   like   file.   Um,   don&#39;t   do   anything   cute.   Because   like   I   I   find   that   telling   it   no   Unicode   is   easier   than   telling   it   don&#39;t   use   emojis   and   like   the   other   things   that   it   tries   to   do   with   um   with   uh   the   other   the   other   like   it   catches   a   lot   of   things   that   I   don&#39;t   want   it   to   do.   But   so   I   gave   it   those   instructions   and   it   kept   giving   me   a   markdown   report   where   it   had   the   citation   style   that   it   tends   to   use,   where   it   would   insert   in   um   what   looked   like   gibberish   characters   because   it   was   some   Unicode   for   a   superscript,   um   but   that   that   I&#39;d   for   I   told   it   to   do   ASCII,   so   it   just   showed   up   as   gibberish.   But   I   could   tell   that   it   was   trying   to   insert   its   own   citation   style.   And   I   eventually   like   I   asked   it   like   to   explain   why.   And   um   I   I   think   one   of   the   models   explained   the   reason,   but   then   the   other   one,   I   think   with   O3,   I   saw   it   in   the   reasoning   trace,   which   is   I   saw   part   of   a   reasoning   trace   where   it   said,   okay,   the   user   has   asked   me   for   the   citations   to   be   in   this   style,   but   the   system   prompt   says   that   all   citations   must   be   in   this   style.   I   think   I&#39;ll   listen   to   the   system   prompt   instead   of   the   user.   And   as   soon   as   I   had   that   information,   as   soon   as   I   knew   that   the   reason   that   it   wasn&#39;t   listening   to   me   was   because   it   was   it   had   conflicting   instructions   and   it   was   picking   to   follow   the   system   instructions   instead.   I   knew   how   to   fix   the   prompt,   which   is   I   just   changed   the   prompt   to   I   had   the   same   instructions   that   I   had   before,   and   I   just   put   listen   to   this   instead   of   the   system   prompt.   And   then   it   did   exactly   what   I   wanted.   But   I   I   could   have   spent   an   hour   or   two   on   that   if   I   had   if   I   had   not   thought   to   ask   it   why   it   wasn&#39;t   doing   that.   And   I&#39;ve   started   doing   that   a   lot   more   recently   because   there&#39;s   a   lot   of   like   rationale   and   instructions   that   it   gets   that   aren&#39;t   obvious   to   us,   and   that   often   that   explains   like   why   it&#39;s   doing   weird   things.   And   I&#39;ve   found   that   when   I   ask   it   to   just   tell   me   why   it&#39;s   doing   weird   things,   it   also   often   gives   me   information   that   helps   me   like   engineer   the   prompt   to   get   it   to   do   what   I   want.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>5:41</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   really   interesting   and   uh   probably   useful   for   uh   the   listeners.   I   mean,   I   I   find   that   with   Cloud   4   these   days,   I   don&#39;t   really   ever   find   it   doing   the   stuff   that   was,   you   know,   deleting   um   unit   tests   or   deleting   some   linting   rule,   like   doing   not   solving   the   problem,   but   just   getting   rid   of   the   problem.   Uh   it   doesn&#39;t   Cloud4   is   so   good   these   days,   it   doesn&#39;t   do   that.   And   I&#39;ve   never   run   into   like   colliding   with   the   system   prompt.   Um   but   in   general,   like   my   fixes   are   one,   you   just   you   have   to   start   uh   uh   a   new   chat.   And   like   that   is,   I   think,   the   number   one   across   podcast   that   I   listen   to.   It&#39;s   just   it&#39;s   you   have   to   be   very   fickle   with   these   things,   and   sometimes   if   it   ends   up   in   a   place,   like   I   said,   Cloud   4,   I   really   never   have   to   do   that.   But   if   you   do   just   start   a   new   one,   uh   two   uh   switch   models,   I   never   do   this   anymore   because   like   I   said,   and   I   also   don&#39;t   really   ever   have   to   restart.   So   these   are   all   things   kind   of   like   for   Claude   3.7   and   ChatGPT,   or   not   GPT,   uh   Gemini   2.5   Pro.   A   lot   of   times   with   those,   I   would   either   restart   uh   new   chats   or   switch   between   um   Gemini   and   Claude,   uh,   but   I   don&#39;t   do   that   anymore.   The   only   thing   that   I   I   would   say   that   I   do   do   actively   is   when   uh   Claude   is   struggling   to   solve   my   problem.   Like   I   had   an   iterator   invalidation   issue   uh   that   it   was   not   apparent   that   was   the   issue   at   the   time,   that   I   spent   like   a   day   more   than   a   day   on.   And   I   finally   realized   that   like   what   I   needed   to   do   was   like   understand   myself   what   the   problem   uh   really   was,   and   I   had   like   three   or   four   different   things,   but   I   basically   had   to   spend   time   narrowing   it   down   what   actually   it   was.   And   so   once   I   basically   figured   out   that   it   was   an   iterator   invalidation   problem,   and   I   was   pretty   confident   I   knew   uh   where   it   was   happening,   then   I   gave   it   that   information   and   then   it   and   then   it   solved   it   in   like   and   so   the   thing   is   is   when   it&#39;s   struggling,   at   least   at   this   point   in   time,   I   think   it&#39;s   also   because   you   would   struggle   to   solve   this.   It&#39;s   like   um   it&#39;s   not   like   oh,   I   don&#39;t   know   the   CSS   um,   you   know,   and   or   like   the   HTML   incantation.   It&#39;s   like   actually   the   problem   that   needs   to   be   solved   here   is   very,   very   tricky,   which   is   why   it   it   that   whole   experience   added   to   my   conviction   that   Rust   is   gonna   thrive   versus   C   in   a   world   like   this,   because   the   set   of   issues   uh   that   the   compiler   will   allow   is   way   smaller   for   Rust   than   it   is   for   C.   And   that   was   part   of   the   problem,   is   that   like   I   had   a   uh   you   know   a   uh   a   pretty   well-designed   feature   on   this   library.   Uh,   but   I   I   even   did   think   at   the   time   I   was   like,   this   could   be   a   little   bit   uh   tricky   with   the   way   like   we   don&#39;t   have   a   borrower   checker   and   stuff.   And   sure   enough,   it   was   it   was   an   issue,   and   then   it   ended   up   um   costing   me.   It&#39;s   still   net.   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   like   weeks   ahead   of   you   know,   the   like   people   will   say,   Oh,   it   cost   me   an   extra   day.   And   I   was   like,   Yeah,   okay,   but   it   saved   me   weeks   right   now.   So   like   uh   I&#39;m   still   net   way   ahead   of   this.   Um   but   yeah,   my   so   my   if   you&#39;re   using   the   the   latest,   greatest   models,   uh   my   advice   is   like   if   you   do   run   into   a   problem   that   it&#39;s   struggling   with,   that&#39;s   when   you   really   have   to   stop   uh   just   being   like   solve   this,   solve   this,   solve   this,   solve   this.   You   have   to   go   and   actu   actually   like   do   some   forensic   deep   diving   yourself.   And   then   once   you   um   are   pretty   sure   you   know   what   the   problem   is,   then   come   back   and   don&#39;t   just   say   solve   this,   say   here&#39;s   what   I   think   the   problem   is,   and   here&#39;s   what   I   think   the   solution   is   going   to   look   like.   And   then   you   can   even   there,   sometimes   I   really   love   doing   this,   and   you   pointed   this   out   in   your   C   Now   talk,   or   no,   C   on   C   talk   a   while   ago,   is   you   ask   it   to   give   you   options,   you   know.   Like   especially   when   I&#39;m   designing   stuff,   I&#39;ll   say   uh   I   kind   of   want   some   modern   design.   Like,   give   me   your   top   10   options   of   what   you   think   you   could   do   nicely.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:11</time>
      <p>
          Well,   and   I   think   that   this   is   really   important   for   people.   Like,   I   I   um   if   I   like   give   it   a   a   prompt,   like   I   I   I   start   off   with   like   a   prompt   and   um   it   goes   in   the   wrong   direction,   um,   and   like   it   becomes   clear   that   I   need   to   modify   the   prompt,   instead   of   like   telling   it   to   correct   itself   in   that   same   chat,   I&#39;ll   oftentimes   just   like   start   a   new   chat   um   and   like   like   with   the   corrected   prompt.   And   sometimes   if   I   don&#39;t   get   like   the   result   that   I&#39;ll   like,   I&#39;ll   like   you   know,   I   will   just   spin   up   a   new   chat   with   the   same   prompt   because   it   it   all   the   models   have   this   temperature   thing.   So   you&#39;re   gonna   get   slightly   different,   you   know,   uh   responses   um   uh   even   if   you   use   the   same   prompt.   And   I   mean,   usually   I&#39;ll   structure   the   prompt.   So   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   structure   the   prompt   to   ask   it   to   give   me   the   top   three   or   like   give   me   three   or   five   options   or   something   like   that.   There   are   some   cases   where   the   models   are   not   well   designed   to   do   this.   Like   um,   if   you&#39;re   doing   like   image   generation   with   like   O3,   which   is   a   thing   that   I   do   somewhat   frequently   for   like   um   uh   you   know,   graphics   for   PowerPoints,   um,   it   is   sometimes   tricky   to   get   it   to   actually   like   if   I   want   to   be   like,   hey,   like   generate   me   like   four   images,   like   four   candidate   images.   Um   sometimes   it&#39;s   tricky   to   get   it   to   like   do   that   um   because   it   has   like   um   uh   like   usage   limits   um   on   doing   things   like   image   generation.   And   so   sometimes   it&#39;s   like   resistant   to   the   idea   of   generating   multiple   images   at   the   same   time.   Um   so   sometimes   I&#39;ll   just   like   spin   up   like   two   chat   windows   and   give   it   like   the   same   prompt   um   and   just   see   see   what   I   get   out   of   that.   Um   I   think   it&#39;s   like   it&#39;s   like   really   important   to   remember   that   there&#39;s   like   a   random   aspect   to   these   to   these   models.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>10:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   think   that&#39;s   why   like   like   I   said,   the   number   one   thing   is   just   to   to   restart   if   it&#39;s   going   in   the   wrong   direction.   Um   but   honestly,   like   I   said,   like   the   the   models   these   days   are   they   do   not   suffer,   at   least   in   my   experience,   using   Claude   4.   And   that&#39;s   what   people   say,   oh,   it&#39;s   only   slightly   better.   I   don&#39;t   think   people   realize   how   much   better   like   the   quality   of   life   improvements   that   you&#39;re   getting   aren&#39;t   necessarily   in   the   code   gen.   It&#39;s   in   the   oh,   it&#39;s   doing   this   thing   and   like   it   just   deleted   all   my   unit   tests.   It&#39;s   like   it   doesn&#39;t   do   that   anymore.   Like   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   a   that&#39;s   a   very   frustrating   thing   that   is   gonna   scare   a   ton   of   people   off.   Like   I   asked   it   to   solve   a   problem,   it   like   turned,   spent   a   bunch   of   money,   or   like   killed   a   bunch   of   trees,   and   then   like   just   deleted   all   my   code   at   the   end   of   the   day.   Like   that&#39;s   the   worst   experience   ever.   And   now   it   doesn&#39;t   do   that,   that&#39;s   like   unlocking   a   whole   new   set   of   folks.   Um,   anyways,   you&#39;re   about   to   say   something.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:40</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah,   yeah.   Well,   I   know   and   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   only   just   started   using   it   because   I   was   on   the   Europe   tour.   So   it&#39;s   when   like   I   think   I   left   for   the   Europe   tour   before   it   came   out   or   right   around   when   it   came   out,   so   I&#39;ve   only   just   started   using   it,   but   I   have   noticed   that   it   seems   a   little   bit   better.   Um   one   thing   I&#39;ve   uh   been   doing   that   I&#39;ve   seen   a   few   other   people   do   is   um   when   they&#39;re   like   taking   like   notes   during   like   a   meeting,   like   a   one-on-one   with   something,   that   doing   it   in   like   a   uh   like   with   a   text   editor   that   has   an   AI   assistant   um   can   be   really   helpful.   Like   like   if   I   want   to   like,   if   I&#39;m   like   chatting   with   somebody   and   I   want   to   like   brainstorm   something,   um   I&#39;ll   like   pop   I&#39;ll   like   open   up   a   new   like   cursor   window   and   I&#39;ll   just   start   like   prototyping   or   brainstorming   the   thing   with   them   in   not   in   the   agenic   mode,   but   in   the   code   complete   mode.   And   I&#39;ve   found   that   that&#39;s   been   a   real   productivity   boost.   I   know   we&#39;ve   talked   about   that   we   don&#39;t   really   that   you   don&#39;t   really   use   I   guess   neither   most   of   us   primarily   both   of   us   primarily   use   the   um   agentic   mode,   yeah.   The   agentic   mode.   But   um   I   have   found   for   things   like   that   where   I&#39;m   like   like   interacting   with   another   person   um   that   the   code   complete   mode   can   be   pretty   helpful.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:45</time>
      <p>
          I   yeah,   I   don&#39;t   really   I   mean   the   if   the   code   completion   is   the   the   tab   completion   kind   of   like   skipping   around,   I   use   that   all   the   time.   I   mean   I&#39;ve   heard   people   s   go   on   record   saying   that   they&#39;re   not   a   fan   of   like   the   age   and   stuff,   but   just   for   the   tab   complete   where   it   like   it   predicts   where   your   next   change   is   gonna   be,   uh   and   like   it,   you   know,   oh   you   made   one   change   on   this   line,   and   you&#39;re   gonna   make   it   the   same   change   seven   uh   places   uh   that   that   looks   similar.   Um   I   know   people   that   love   that,   and   I   love   that   as   well.   I   can&#39;t   say   that   I&#39;ve   ever   done   it   for   I   mean   the   the   closest   I&#39;ve   thing   I&#39;ve   done   is   when   I&#39;m   creating   the   show   notes   for   these   podcasts,   I   do   it   in   cursor,   and   uh   I   have   to   be   careful   though,   because   I   I   did   it   once   and   it   it   auto-completed   the   wrong   the   wrong   link.   Um   Yeah,   yeah,   you   gotta   you   gotta   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:31</time>
      <p>
          The   the   the   the   the   killer   thing   that   I&#39;m   waiting   for   and   have   been   um   asking   around   that   NVIDIA   about   is   uh   we   don&#39;t   have   Gemini   turned   on   for   our   Google   workspace   yet.   Um   and   that   means   that   like   I   don&#39;t   have   an   AI   assistant   in   Google   Docs,   and   uh   like   I   spend   a   lot   of   time   in   Google   Docs,   like   working   on   like   design   documents   or   collaborating   with   other   people   at   NVIDIA   or   coming   up   with   plans   for   stuff,   etc.   And   uh   if   I   just   if   I   had   Gemini   or   literally   any   model   turned   on   in   Google   Docs,   um   it   would   be   like   a   10x   productivity   increase   for   me.   Um   just   because   like   like   today,   like   I   have   to   go   and   take   the   thing   from   the   Google   Docs   and   I   have   to   either   put   it   into   um   uh   like   Chat   GPT   or   Perplexity   or   something   like   that,   and   I   don&#39;t   want   to   do   that.   I   just   want   to   have   I   want   to   be   able   to   just   have   it   be   natively   integrated   with   uh   Google   Docs.   I   mean   I   I   also   want   like   a   I   also   want   cursor   for   PowerPoint   specifically.   It   is   mad.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:30</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   crazy   how   uh   like   so   many   times   you&#39;re   thinking   something,   and   then   you   just   say   like   the   nuclear   thing   and   the   the   transhuman   thing.   Yeah.   While   you   were   saying   that,   I   was   thinking   that   like,   oh,   I   should   mention   to   Bryce   that   like   also   on   the   top   five   list   of   things   I&#39;m   gonna   do   uh   with   these   tools   is   I&#39;m   not   I&#39;m   not   gonna   add   it   to   PowerPoint.   I&#39;m   planning   on   building   my   own   PowerPoint   that   is   specifically   for   code   presentations   and   that   like   it&#39;s   gonna   have   LLM   capabilities   built   into   it.   Like   I   showed   you   the   matrix   landing   page   for   my   vibing   projects.   Like   imagine   being   able   to   create   any   custom   animation   or   like   graphic   or   transition,   you   know,   and   and   then   like   you   can   add   it   to   like   a   b   oh,   you   like   we   uh   we   both   love   Morph,   but   like   imagine   you   want   something   specific   and   and   then   also   like   what   I   really   want   is   I   want   um   to   be   able   to   add   like   my   code   to   Markdown,   have   the   you   know   word   transition,   but   then   also   like   make   sure   all   that   code,   depending,   even   if   I&#39;ve   got   20   languages,   I   want   it   all   compile   compiled,   testing,   and   like   uh   you   know,   syntax   highlighted   the   exact   way,   because   there&#39;s   a   bunch   of   these   like   JavaScript-based   things,   they&#39;re   all   terrible.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:30</time>
      <p>
          PowerPoint   is   king,   PowerPoint&#39;s   better,   and   uh   you   could   imagine   though,   a   PowerPoint-like   thing   powered   by   LLMs,   man,   it   would   be   but   the   thing   is   like   I   I   specifically   want   it   to   be   PowerPoint   because   I   I   have   a   couple   different   reasons   why   I   want   to   stay   in   PowerPoint.   The   the   first   and   biggest   one   is   I   um   I   don&#39;t   make   my   slide   decks   in   a   vacuum.   I   interact   and   collaborate   with   a   bunch   of   different   people   at   the   company,   um   uh   and   outside   of   NVIDIA   too.   And   oftentimes   the   the   language   of   interchange,   the   language   of   collaboration   is   through   PowerPoint.   So   somebody   else   needs   to   use   some   of   my   PowerPoint   slides   in   their   deck,   or   I   need   to   use   some   of   their   PowerPoint   slides   in   my   deck,   et   cetera.   And   if   if   it&#39;s   anything   that&#39;s   new   that&#39;s   not   PowerPoint,   then   it   makes   it   harder   for   uh   other   people   to   use   my   stuff   or   me   to   use   other   people&#39;s   stuff.   Right,   that&#39;s   fair,   that&#39;s   fair.   And   the   the   second   big   thing   for   me   is   I   think   there&#39;s   a   reason   that   PowerPoint   is   king,   and   I   think   that   PowerPoint&#39;s   um   layout   engine   is   um   I   guess   I&#39;ll   say   really   good.   Um   I   do   think   that   it   it   like   it   has   some   things   about   it   that   like   annoy   me.   Um   uh   and   there   are   some   ways   in   which   and   by   by   layout   engine   I   mean   like   like   the   PowerPoint&#39;s   uh   UI   and   engine   for   like   creating   like   a   slide   and   like   putting   things   in   particular   places   and   drawing   things   of   particular   shapes   and   sizes.   Um   I   think   it&#39;s   really   powerful.   And   I   think   it&#39;s   more   flexible   than   a   lot   of   the   other   solutions   I&#39;ve   seen.   A   lot   of   like   the   JavaScript-based   solutions   that   I&#39;ve   tried,   I   can&#39;t   be   um   I&#39;m   not   as   agile.   Like,   you   know,   I   have   a   vision   in   my   head   of   like   I   want   the   slide   to   look   like   this,   and   it&#39;s   gonna   have   this   graphic   and   this   graphic   here,   and   it   would   take   me   like   half   a   day   to   get   it   done   in   something   like   reveal.js,   and   I   wouldn&#39;t   even   be   able   to   get   it   to   look   exactly   like   what   I   want.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>17:26</time>
      <p>
          Those   tools,   we   are   completely   on   the   same   page.   They&#39;re   they&#39;re   awful   for   what   yeah,   and   and   I   mean   we&#39;re   probably   uh   it&#39;s   probably   sickening   for   the   listener   to   hear   this,   but   like   you   and   I   are   like   two   of   the   best   like   slide   deck   makers,   and   like   the   stuff   that   we   care   about,   other   people   don&#39;t   care   about,   like   alignments   and   like   I   think   like   honestly,   if   I   you   probably   make   the   best   slides   of   any   person   I   know,   and   I   forget   in   between   like   seeing   your   talks,   and   then   I&#39;ll   see   a   slide   and   I&#39;m   like,   oh   my   god,   like   and   then   like   my   thought   is   like   how   much   time   and   effort   went   into   this   slide,   and   then   you   not   that   the   reveal.js   presentations   are   bad,   they   still   look   good,   but   just   like   if   you&#39;re   looking   for   a   certain   uh   style   and   like   just   level   of   whatever,   you   never   get   that   with   those   things.   Um   you   have   to   cut   out   a   certain   category   of   stuff   that   you   want   to   do   because   it&#39;s   just   not   possible.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>18:13</time>
      <p>
          It   reminds   me   of   like   LaTeX,   where   um   I   don&#39;t   know   if   you&#39;ve   ever   had   to   use   LaTeX   to   like   write   a   paper.   Yeah,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:19</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   I   had   to   use   it   like   for   my   hundred   page   page   master,   so   I   uh   I   know   a   ton   about   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>18:24</time>
      <p>
          Sometimes   sometimes   with   LaTeX,   you   just   you   simply   have   to   accept   that   like   a   thing,   like   LaTeX   wants   to   make   a   thing   look   this   certain   way,   and   in   theory,   there   might   be   a   way   to   get   it   to   do   exactly   what   you   want,   but   the   the   time   investment   that   would   be   required   to   get   LaTeX   to   do   that   is   just   is   simply   not   worth   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:47</time>
      <p>
          I   I   have   been   there,   man.   I   I   had   like   six   custom   fonts   in   my   uh   master&#39;s   thesis,   and   then   also   two,   like   I   I   had   a   paper   accepted   to   uh   ACM   workshop   at   one   point,   and   then   they   had   these   rules   and   stuff,   but   like   about   like   how   on   the   the   final   page   of   citations   like   you   need   to   have   the   same   way.   Anyways,   I&#39;ve   spent   lit   and   this   was   pre-LLM   days,   like   days   like   downloading   different   packages   and   font   specs   and   stuff   like   that   to   get   it   to   way   uh   to   get   it   to   work   the   way   I   want.   It   is   it&#39;s   awful.   It&#39;s   awful.   But   yes,   it   is   uh   it&#39;s   not   worth   the   investment   uh   unless   if   you&#39;re   like   OCD.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:23</time>
      <p>
          I   I   do   wonder   to   what   degree   somebody   could   build   a   PowerPoint   alternative   that   um   that   X   that   that   uses   the   PowerPoint   format,   because   that   would   address   many   of   the   like   my   that   would   address   my   first   point   of   being   able   to   interoperate   with   other   people&#39;s   decks.   Um   and   um   I   mean   I   I   I   could   certainly   I   think   if   I   sat   down   and   thought   deeply   about   it,   I   could   think   about   ways   in   which   I   would   want   PowerPoint&#39;s   like   engine   to   be   uh   figuring   like   one   one   thing   that   drives   me   bonkers   is   that   if   you   have   a   table   in   PowerPoint,   you   typically   most   tables   cannot   be   grouped   with   other   objects,   which   um   just   makes   it   so   hard   and   annoying   to   deal   with   like   alignment   and   uh   like   like   getting   things   to   look   the   way   you   want.   Um   and   um   and   like   the   way   that   stuff   snaps   to   locations   in   PowerPoint   um   can   be   a   little   finicky.   Um   uh   so   like   I   certainly   could   imagine   somebody   making   something   that   would   be   uh   comparable.   Um   but   I   I   wonder   whether   whether   somebody   could   make   like   whether   you   the   PowerPoint   format   could   be   the   thing   that   could   be   used   so   that   you   could   open   it   up   in   actual   PowerPoint   or   share   it   with   somebody   in   PowerPoint.   I   don&#39;t   know.   I   I   I   know   that   PowerPoint   has   some   AI   tools   uh   built   in   today,   but   they   they&#39;re   it&#39;s   not   like   a   chat   mode.   It&#39;s   like   a   thing   where   like   it   just   suggests   slides.   I   want   something   where   I   can   tell   it   like,   hey,   like   I   want   like   create   for   me   like   three,   you   know,   uh   circles   like   with   this   color   and   arranged   in   this   format.   I   want   to   be   able   to   tell   like   I   have   specific   instructions   in   mind   for   like   like   I   have   a   specific   vision   in   my   mind   of   what   actions   I   want   it   to   do.   Um   it&#39;s   just   that   like   uh   doing   those   myself   would   be   very   repetitive.   And   so   I   want   to   be   able   to   tell   it   like,   hey,   go   and   like   align   all   12   of   these   boxes,   you   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:23</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah.   It&#39;s   I   mean,   I   definitely   know   the   problem   that   you&#39;re   thinking   of,   and   like   the   initial   PowerPoint   equivalent   isn&#39;t   gonna   have   that.   It&#39;s   gonna   be   be   mostly   like   a   a   markdown-based   thing.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:36</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:38</time>
      <p>
          But   the   the   my   goal   down   the   line   is   to   evolve   it   into   basically   like   uh   uh   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   you   recall   uh   HANA&#39;s   automaton   version   of   her   compile   time,   and   she   had   these   beautiful   like   imagine   a   generic   Yeah,   actually   we   should   we   should   we   should   mention   HANA   when   we&#39;re   talking   about   beautiful   slide   decks,   because   that   is   one   of   the   uh   most   Beautiful.   I   mean   her,   but   the   thing   is,   she&#39;s   building   custom   JavaScript   for   her   talks.   Like   uh   she   basically,   like,   I   remember   she   said   she   spent   she   wrote   more   lines   of   code   in   JavaScript   for   like   her   presentation   than   she   did   in   the   actual   code   uh   of   the   C   she   was   showing.   And   imagine   like   a   tool   like   that,   uh,   that&#39;s   like   a   generic   thing   where   you   can   just   say,   I   want   this   to   be   matrix   themed   across   the   whole   deck,   and   I   want,   you   know,   morph   transition,   but   like   like   I   I   think   of   there&#39;s   things   that   I&#39;ve   always   wanted   to   do   in   PowerPoint,   but   they&#39;re   just   you   can   you   can   mimic   them,   but   you   can&#39;t   do   them   perfectly.   Like   I&#39;ve   always   wanted   an   animation   of   starting   from   where   I   was   born   in   Vancouver,   BC,   and   then   every   single   because   I   didn&#39;t   take   a   flight   until   grade   nine   when   I   went   to   the   National   Science   Fair.   And   so   I   would   love   to   see   like   over   time,   like   how   I   flew   or   drove   or   whatever.   And   so   you   can   imagine,   like,   I   drove   from   Vancouver   to   my   hometown,   Prince   George,   and   then   like   back   and   forth,   and   then   at   some   point   I   went   across   Canada,   but   like   it&#39;d   be   very   cool   to   see   like   a   little   car   or   plane   that   animates   from   place   to   place.   But   the   thing   is,   how   would   you   do   that   in   PowerPoint?   The   way   that   I   would   think   is   if   you   use   a   curved   arrow   and   you   use   an   animation   that   uh   pans   from   uh   right   to   left   or   left   to   right   or   top   to   bottom,   depending   on   the   direction   you&#39;re   going.   But   that   doesn&#39;t   actually   give   you   the   nice   linear   like   uh   on   the   curve.   You&#39;re   getting   this   kind   of   swipe   motion   that   it   does   simulate   it   very   well.   But,   anyways,   you   could   imagine   just   giving   uh   an   LLM   and   say,   hey,   I   need   a   JavaScript   animation   of   a   global   map   that   these   are   the   sequence   of   places   I   go   uh   by   date,   and   like   I   want   you   to   animate   this   for   me,   and   it&#39;s   I   guarantee   you   what   it   gives   you   is   gonna   be   nicer   than   whatever   you   kind   of   scaffold   together   in   PowerPoint,   you   know?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>23:50</time>
      <p>
          Is   there   no   way   to   do   like   um   visual   basic   or   any   type   of   scripting   in   PowerPoint   like   like   uh   there   is   actually   you   can   do   uh   you   can   do   VBA   um   uh   in   you   can   you   can   do   VBA   in   every   single   office.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:04</time>
      <p>
          Uh   you   can   do   it   in   Excel,   is   where   I&#39;ve   done   it   the   most,   but   I&#39;ve   also   done   it   in   Access   and   uh   How   does   how   is   Microsoft   not   have   like   a   chat   box,   like   an   Agenic   chat   box   for   PowerPoint   yet?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>24:16</time>
      <p>
          Like   like   does   it   exist   and   I   just   don&#39;t   know   about   it?   I   mean,   how   is   this   not   a   thing?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:21</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   that&#39;s   a   good   point.   Yeah,   that&#39;s   a   really   good   point.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>24:25</time>
      <p>
          If   you   were   if   you   work   at   Microsoft   and   are   listening   to   this,   please.   Yeah,   and   send   us   a   check   when   you   uh   I   actually   I   was   talking   with   with   uh   Jonathan   Mueller   who   he   works   for   for   for   Think   Cell,   and   they   make   like   PowerPoint   plugins,   and   I   was   telling   him   like   that   this   is   what   what   y&#39;all   should   be   doing.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:45</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   like   can   you   imagine   like   the   the   the   themes   that   ship   with   PowerPoint?   I   mean,   no   offense,   but   they   suck.   Um   and   like   I   don&#39;t   think   either   you   of   I,   I   mean,   when   we&#39;re   making   decks   for   NVIDIA,   we&#39;re   using   that   one,   but   uh   when   we&#39;re   when   we&#39;re   not,   I   I   think   both   of   us   we   just   kind   of   use   like   white   or   black   backgrounds   with   text.   Um   I&#39;d   never   use   a   built-in   theme,   and   I   that&#39;s   like   one   of   my   top   recommendations   is   just   don&#39;t   use   the   themes   because   it   they   look   tacky   and   it&#39;s   so   clear   very   quickly   that   like   you   just   chose   one   of   the   themes.   But   like   imagine   you   had   an   LLM,   you   just   ask   whatever   theme.   Like   that&#39;s   the   fun   part,   or   one   of   the   fun   parts   of   these   tools   is   like   you&#39;re   building   a   website   and   you   just   say   like,   I   don&#39;t   like   the   way   it   works.   Like,   and   that&#39;s   the   wedding   uh   consolidator   that   I   the   first   one   it   gave   me   kind   of   looked   tacky.   Then   I   said,   I   want   something   more   professional.   I   didn&#39;t   like   that.   And   I   was   like,   okay,   these   are   our   wedding   colors,   like   add   a   flower   emoji   and   something   like   that.   And   then   then   the   last   one   that   I   was   like,   oh,   this   looks   pretty   good   now.   But   it&#39;s   just   like   you,   it&#39;s   like   it&#39;s   like   having   magical   fairy   dust   in   your   hand,   and   you   just   you   just   blow   on   it   onto   the   screen   and   you   just   and   it&#39;s   like   it&#39;s   like   uh   I   said   this   earlier   uh   in   a   different   podcast   is   like   that   scene   in   Inception   where   um   uh   Elliot   Page   at   the   time   uh   you   know   is   building   the   dreams   and   is   just   like   it   folding   the   world   over   in   on   itself.   It&#39;s   just   it&#39;s   just   crazy.   It&#39;s   crazy.   That   is   what   we   have   right   now   when   it   comes   to   like   styling   websites.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   nuts.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:06</time>
      <p>
          Well,   and   what   one   of   the   things   that   bothers   me   a   bit   with   PowerPoint   is   some   of   the   defaults   are   um   just   not   good.   Like   the   default   font   sizes   are   too   small,   they   should   be   larger.   The   default   like   text   box,   the   border,   or   like   the   be   the   default   shape,   um,   like   you   just   open   a   new   a   new   presentation,   the   default   shape   um   the   outline   is   like   too   thin   if   you&#39;re   thinking   about   like   presenting   it   up   on   a   screen.   Like   you   want,   it&#39;s   not   it,   it   doesn&#39;t   have   good   defaults   for   like   high   contrast.   Um   and   like   another   one   that   drives   me   nuts   is   like   the   default   transition   time,   and   I   cannot   figure   out   a   way   to   change   like   the   the   default   shapes   and   default   text   boxes,   you   can   set   that   per   presentation.   It   gets   stored   in   the   theme,   thankfully.   Um   and   you   can   set   the   default,   like   with   the   slide   master,   you   can   customize   the   default   you   know   fonts   and   whatnot,   um   which   I   always   do.   But   you   cannot,   I   as   far   as   I   can   tell,   change   the   default   transition   duration,   which   is   two   seconds,   which   is   just   so   long.   So   long.   It   should   be   like,   it   should   be   half   a   second,   which   is   what   I   always   set   it   to.   I   have   been,   I&#39;ve   been   using   morph   a   lot   more   recently.   And   not   just   for   like   word   morph   things,   but   also   um   if   you   if   you   do   morph   right,   um   there&#39;s   this,   I   don&#39;t   know   if   I&#39;ve   shown   you   this,   but   you   can   go   into   the   arrangement   box   and   you   can   give   a   particular   name   to   a   set   of   objects,   and   then   like   it   lets   it   it   allows   between   two   different   slides   it   if   two   different   things   have   the   same   name   in   the   in   their   different   slide,   then   they&#39;ll   morph   to   each   other.   And   oh,   I&#39;ve   that   has   been   so   powerful   for   me.   I&#39;ve   uh   I&#39;ve   gone   a   little   morph   crazy   in   some   of   my   decks.   It&#39;s   all   your   fault.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:49</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   the   best   thing   to   happen   uh   to   PowerPoint   or   Excel   in   my   lifetime.   Like   when   I   used   to   spend   hours   building   up   animations   of   like   individual   boxes   moving   here   and   there,   and   then   when   Morph   happened,   uh   it   was   it   was   life-changing.   It&#39;s   a   life-changing   event   um   for   someone   for   people   like   you   and   me   that   uh   make   a   lot   of   decks   and   take   pride   in   how   they   look   like   morph   is   and   that&#39;s   the   thing   is   it&#39;s   not   perfect,   but   like   you   can   finesse   it   by   adding   a   couple   morphs   in   between,   and   like   you   first   you   delete   a   line   of   text,   and   then   you   have   a   second   morph   so   that   like   you   don&#39;t   have   some   word   flying   across   a   screen.   Like   it&#39;s   not   perfect,   but   you   can   definitely   massage   it   to   get   it   uh   to   look   like   the   way   you   want.   And   the   LLMs   are   gonna   make   it   possible.   I   I&#39;m   curious   how   if   you   just   ask,   I   want   morph   in   a   simple   like   markdown   thing,   can   it   do   it?   Like,   could   it   could   an   LLM   add   the   morph   transition   to   reveal.js?   Because   I   think   that   would   it   would   make   reveal.j.js   like   ten   times   more   attractive.   I   probably   would   have   been   using   it   by   now.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>28:47</time>
      <p>
          I   I   think   that   there&#39;s   a   I   think   that   it&#39;s   not   that   hard   because   I   I   suspect   that   there&#39;s   a   there&#39;s   a   CSS   thing   that   there&#39;s   a   CSS   or   JavaScript   thing   that&#39;s   built   in   that   that   more   or   less   does   this,   would   be   my   guess.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:01</time>
      <p>
          You   think?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>29:02</time>
      <p>
          I   would   I   would   I   I&#39;ve   seen   like   effects   like   that   on   websites,   and   yeah,   that   would   be   my   guess.   I   would   not   be   shocked   if   that&#39;s   the   case.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:13</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   mean   it&#39;s   been   on   my   long   list   of   things   to   do.   Um   I   mean   the   the   the   CUDA   ecosystem   dock   site,   that   was   that&#39;s   been   on   my   list   ever   since   I   saw   your   GTC   talk.   Um   I   finally   I   I   wiped   that   one   off.   I&#39;ve   got   the   language   one,   I&#39;ve   got   the   PowerPoint   one,   um,   I&#39;ve   got   a   couple   other   ones,   but   it&#39;s   just   it&#39;s   uh   is   I   don&#39;t   know.   I   don&#39;t   I   might   we   gotta   wind   this   down   at   some   point   because   this   has   probably   gone   like   45   minutes   longer   than   I   I   I   wanted   to,   but   it&#39;s   inevitable   talking   about   this   stuff.   But   I   I   am   really   like   I   implore   the   listener,   and   I&#39;m   sure   Bryce   does   as   well,   you   gotta   give   these   tools   a   fair   shot.   And   like   it&#39;s   it   would   be   the   equivalent   if   using   the   accounting   example,   VisaCalc   and   Lotus   Notes   came   on   the   scene,   and   for   whatever   reason   you   were   like,   oh,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   gonna   lead   to   more   mistakes   or   it&#39;s   gonna   be   bad   for   whatever.   It&#39;s   the   way   that   accounting   is   done   now.   You   like   Excel   took   over   the   world   after   Lotus   Notes   and   VisaCalc   went   the   way   of   the   dodo.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>30:08</time>
      <p>
          And   you   you   don&#39;t   have   to   use   an   IDE   for   it.   I   mean,   I   I   don&#39;t   know   whether   you&#39;ve   tried   clawed   code,   but   uh   everybody   seems   to   be   raving   about   clawed   code.   It&#39;s   got   a   command   line   interface.   Like   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   multiple   different   options   for   how   you   can   interface   with   this.   If   you&#39;re   a   command   line   person,   there&#39;s   command   line   tools   for   this,   like   clawed   code.   There&#39;s,   you   know,   if   you   want   to   use   an   IDE,   there&#39;s   things   like   cursor   or   you   know,   insert   any   of   the   other   cursor   like   clones.   Like   there&#39;s   tons   of   different   options.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:34</time>
      <p>
          Um   I   haven&#39;t   used   Claude   Code.   Um   I   was   talking   to   Asher,   a   coworker,   about   this   uh   yesterday   or   two   days   ago.   And   he&#39;s   he&#39;s   uh   up   to   date   and   has   tried   because   we   have   a   bunch   of   access   to   this   stuff   at   NVIDIA.   And   uh,   Cloud   Code,   I   think   you   need   to   jump   through   a   couple   more   hoops   to   get   it   uh   set   up   locally   and   working.   And   cursor,   you   just   sign   in   with   your   your   NVIDIA   email   and   you&#39;re   good   to   go,   or   your   NVIDIA   linked   GitHub   email.   Um   and   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   just   been   having   so   much   success   with   Claude,   uh   Cloud4   and   Cursor.   Um   and   you   get   access   to   all   the   models,   right?   So   you   can   try   them   out   from   time   to   time,   but   um   Cloud4   is   the   latest   and   greatest.   I   don&#39;t   think   Gemini   has   released   anything,   they&#39;re   still   on   2.5   Pro.   And   in   general,   I   have   found   that   the   uh   OpenAI   models   don&#39;t   work   as   well   with   Cursor.   They&#39;re   still   good,   but   I   just   mean   like   the   uh   the   amount   of   um   re   like   uh   reasoning   description   that   you   get.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>31:27</time>
      <p>
          Oh   yeah,   they   sometimes   you   don&#39;t   get   any   reasoning   trays   from   them   at   all.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:31</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   Like   I   think   O3,   uh,   you   don&#39;t,   or   at   least   the   last   time   I   tried   it,   you   don&#39;t   get   anything.   And   it   still   does   great   work,   but   it   just   you   get   nothing.   And   it&#39;ll   think   for   like   seven   minutes.   And   that&#39;s   just   not   the   like   I   need   to   know   if   I&#39;m   gonna   wait   here   seven   minutes   because   I   have   had   I   have   had   the   case   uh   where   you   take   one   of   these   thinking   models,   uh,   I   think   it   was   it   had   to   be   open   AI   because   it   didn&#39;t   have   any   any   um   description   or   or   thinking.   And   then   after   seven   minutes,   it   said,   I   need   to   run   this   like   ls.l   command   locally   to   figure   out   if   you   have   like   a   building   file.   And   I   was   like,   You   needed   seven   minutes   for   that?   Like   what   the   what   are   we   talking   about?   Um   like   just   ask   me   that   up   front.   And   so   um   yeah,   I&#39;ve   been   very   happy.   Uh,   but   yeah,   I   just   just   you   gotta   give   these   tools   a   shot.   And   it&#39;s   like   it&#39;s   for   it&#39;s   for   you.   It&#39;s   not   like   oh   I&#39;m   trying   to   push.   This   is   the   way   I   think   things   are,   you   know,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   the   a   new   tool   that   we   all   or   not,   I   guess.   Do   we   all   have   access   to   it?   I   guess   you   have   to   pay   for   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:24</time>
      <p>
          Um   but   uh   I   well   I   think   the   easiest   way   to   get   started   if   you   if   you   like   the   easiest   uh   road   to   entry   is   to   just   use   chat   GPT.   Um   if   you   don&#39;t   want   to   change   your   development   environment,   if   you   don&#39;t   want   to   do   anything   else,   just   like   the   next   time   the   next   time   you   have   a   question   about   something,   or   the   next   time   you&#39;re   like   you&#39;re   wondering   how   a   diagnostic   works,   like   try   chat   GPT.   Um   and   I   think   that   what   people   will   find   is   they&#39;ll   start   using   that   more   and   more,   and   then   that   they&#39;ll   be   more   willing   to,   you   know,   once   you   see   that   that   that   it   can   be   useful   for   answering   your   questions,   then   you&#39;re   gonna   be   more   willing   to   try   some   Agenic   thing   like   uh   like   cursor.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>33:06</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   would   caveat   saying   that   you&#39;re   really   not   it&#39;s   only   a   fraction   of   the   power.   I   will   say   though,   if   it&#39;s   especially   if   you&#39;re   in   C   and   you   have   some   template   metaprogramming   uh   compile   time   error,   that&#39;s   what   I   would   recommend.   It&#39;s   like   something   that   you&#39;re   gonna   oh   actually   that&#39;s   the   problem,   is   though,   is   if   you&#39;re   an   expert,   you   probably   know   how   to   read   that   right   away,   you   know?   So   it&#39;s   yeah,   but   I   don&#39;t   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>33:26</time>
      <p>
          But   even   even   if   I   do   know   how   to   read   it,   it&#39;s   like   I   always   I   don&#39;t   even   look   at   it,   I   just   plug   it   into   the   large   language   model   because   it&#39;ll   take   me   longer   to   read   it   than   like   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   have   time   for   that.   I   have   no   pride.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>33:39</time>
      <p>
          The   re   the   real   power   though   is   when   you   have   some   thing   that   you&#39;re   trying   to   build   or   do,   and   you&#39;ve   got   tests   and   you&#39;ve   got   a   a   build   you   know   command   and   a   building.md,   and   so   your   workflow   becomes   listen,   I   want   you   to   build   this   feature.   Uh   here&#39;s   an   example   of   a   test   that   I   want,   build   a   few   others   like   that.   And   what   I   want   you   to   do   is   go   out,   build   it,   or   like   write   the   code,   then   build   the   project.   If   there&#39;s   compilation   errors,   you   know,   iterate   until   and   you   don&#39;t   even   need   to   explain   it   in   this   detail.   You   just   say,   this   is   my   feature,   make   sure   it   builds,   and   make   sure   the   test   pass.   And   then   when   you   inigenic   mode,   it   just   goes   and   cycles,   oh,   you   know,   uh   blah,   blah,   blah.   And   that&#39;s   the   thing   I   have   set   up   in   my   local   projects.   I&#39;ve   got   all   the   clang   tidy   uh   bells   and   whistles,   clang   format.   So   like   after   it&#39;s   done   all   that,   it   then   says,   oh,   let   me   go   check.   And   so   it   might,   it   might   have   uh   used   some   you   know,   std   enable   if,   which   is   uh,   you   know,   not   best   practice   anymore.   And   then   so   the   clang   tidy   will   say,   oh,   use   requires   uh   instead   of   this.   And   so   then   it&#39;ll   go,   it&#39;ll   modernize   my   code   base   with   a   dash-fix   on   a   script   that   I   got   in   so   like   you   can   start.   Uh   it&#39;s   just   so   great.   It&#39;s   just   so   great,   folks.   Uh,   you   know,   I   used   to   I   used   to   die   inside   when   thinking   about   oh,   I   gotta   set   up   another   clang   tidy   file,   get   the   Python   script   working   correctly,   point   it   at   the   right   things,   you   gotta   set   up   a   custom   set   of   rules   and   whatnot,   which   is   why   I   think   probably   Rust   is   just   the   future.   You   know,   all   that   stuff   ships   out   of   the   box.   Yeah,   uh,   you   don&#39;t   have   to   do   anything,   it&#39;s   one   command.   Uh   but   still,   whether   you&#39;re   a   Rust   programmer,   C   programmer,   give   it   a   shot.   You   might   only   have   a   couple   years   left   if   uh   the   singularity   happens,   you   know.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>35:09</time>
      <p>
          Any   anyway,   final   thoughts   from   uh   uh   well   uh   I   guess   I   gotta   I   gotta   the   next   thing   I   gotta   go   do   is   go   dive   into   PowerPoint   because   I   gotta   finalize   my   slides   for   uh   for   talking   at   SciPi   next   week.   And   uh   and   I&#39;m   sad   that   I   don&#39;t   have   my   genetic   thing   because   I   uh   like   I   I   I   already   know   exactly   what   I   would   write.   The   prompts   I   would   write.   I   just   need   three   slides   I   need   updated.   So   that&#39;s   gonna   be   the   rest   of   my   day.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>35:36</time>
      <p>
          It   is   crazy.   Knowing   like   what   could   be   possible   and   then   having   to   do   it   manually   now,   it   it   feels   like   it   makes   me   sad.   You&#39;re   like   you   have   you&#39;re   coding   with   one   hand   or   something   like   that,   you   know?   It&#39;s   uh   or   building   a   deck   with   one   hand.   Um,   will   this   be   one,   two,   three,   four   episodes?   Who   knows?   Well,   I   don&#39;t   know.   You   got   a   good   name   for   this?   Should   we   ask   the   LLMs?   I   was   thinking   like   AI   talk,   but   I   don&#39;t   know.   I   I   don&#39;t   want   to   scare   people   away   uh   because   I&#39;m   pretty   sure   some   people   see   the   word   AI   and   they&#39;re   like,   skip.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>36:03</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   don&#39;t   know.   Are   we   an   AI   podcast   now?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>36:07</time>
      <p>
          No,   although   I   will   say   I   have   a   hard   time   getting   excited   about   conversations   where   I&#39;m   not   allowed   to   mention   AI.   Because   there   are   certain   I   don&#39;t   want   to   I   don&#39;t   want   to   be   specific   because   I   don&#39;t   want   to   call   these   folks   out,   but   there   are   certain   spaces   where   AI   has   like   it&#39;s   like   a   trigger   word.   And   uh   so   we   have   to   have   discussions   and   like   skate   around   it,   but   I&#39;m   just   like,   what   does   it   even   mean   to   be   talking   about   anything   not   in   the   context   of   like   what   is   gonna   potentially   be   the   biggest   like   paradigm   shift   of   our   lifetimes?   It&#39;s   like   uh   I   was   who   was   I   talking   I   was   talking   with   Asher   the   other   day   about   do   programming   languages   even   matter   now?   Like   obviously   they   do,   but   like   as   as   someone   who   is   a   huge   PL   enthusiast,   I   now   find   myself   caring   less   about   language   paradigms   and   and   like   I   already   kind   of   know   a   lot   of   that   stuff,   but   it&#39;s   just   like   when   I   can   get   a   program   to   do   all   the   heavy   lifting   for   me,   well,   you   know,   why   do   I   why   do   I   care?   I   want   I   want   the   language   that&#39;s   gonna   work   best   with   that   tool.   If   that&#39;s   JavaScript   instead   of   Python,   I   prefer   JavaScript.   If   that&#39;s   Rust   instead   of   C,   I   prefer   Rust,   you   know?   Like   it&#39;s   uh   sure,   I   used   to   like   one   language   versus   the   others   for   reasons   X,   Y,   and   Z,   but   now   that   was   because   I   was   the   one   having   to   do   the   typing   and   the   iterating.   I&#39;m   not   doing   that   anymore.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   the   LLMs   that   are   doing   it.   So   it&#39;s   like   uh   in   a   world   where   you   are   building   libraries   and   languages,   I   feel   like   the   number   one   thing   we   should   care   about   is   like   how   do   these   interact   with   LLMs?   Like,   is   are   we   making   it   more   difficult   or   worse?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>37:39</time>
      <p>
          This   has   been   I   I&#39;ve   been   making   this   point   to   a   lot   of   a   lot   of   people   that   we   need   to   start   thinking   about   how   do   we   design   libraries,   how   do   we   design   software,   how   do   we   design   docs   to   be   consumable   by   LLMs.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>37:49</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   like   when   you   mentioned   the   the   GPU   mode   folks   doing   the   CUDA   kernel   generation,   it&#39;s   like,   well,   the   surface   area   of   writing   a   CUDA   kernel,   it&#39;s   very   thorny.   Like,   you   know,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   got   syntax   that&#39;s   not   simple,   and   it&#39;s   not   surprising   to   me   at   all   that   it   really   struggles   with   that   stuff.   So   like   if   we&#39;re   gonna   be   building   some   next   generation,   you   know,   LLM   built   uh   CUDA   programming   thing,   yeah,   it&#39;s   like,   well,   we   should   really   be   thinking   uh   and   and   trying   to   do   the   heavy   lifting   behind   the   scenes   of   making   sure   that   uh   whatever   we&#39;re   putting   out   into   the   world,   LLMs   do   the   right   thing   with   it&#39;s   easy   to   generate   code   and   it   also   runs   very   efficiently,   you   know?   Anyways,   a   topic   for   another   day.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>38:28</time>
      <p>
          I   think   that   programming   languages   uh   are   still   uh   important,   but   and   actually   it&#39;s   an   intra   it&#39;s   an   exciting   time   to   be   in   the   programming   language   space   because   we   are   gonna   see   in   the   next   few   years   the   um   programming   languages   designed   for   LLMs   and   just   the   the   it&#39;s   like   we   have   a   new   audience   for   programming   languages.   Like   now   we   need   to   think   about   not   just   how   do   we   design   a   good   programming   language,   like   how   do   we   design   a   good   feature   um   for   use   by   humans,   but   how   do   we   design   a   good   feature   for   use   by   LLMs.   Um   and   fundamentally,   uh   humans   are   still   gonna   be   interacting   with   the   code.   Uh   you   can&#39;t   design   the   code   solely   for   the   LLM.   I   don&#39;t   think   we&#39;re   at   that   phase   yet.   And   I   think   while   that&#39;s   an   interesting   research   area,   and   I   think   people   should   certainly   explore   that,   I   I   think   that   um   uh   more   practically   the   programming   language   is   gonna   be   the   the   interchange,   the   communication   between   the   the   the   programmer,   the   human,   and   the   LLM.   And   so   we   need   to   figure   out   how   can   we   structure   code,   how   can   code   be   structured   in   a   way   where   both   the   human   and   the   large   language   model   can   easily   and   efficiently   interact   with   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>39:38</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   1000%   agree.   And   that&#39;s   why,   like   I   said,   it&#39;s   hard   when   I   enter   a   conversation   and   like   all   I&#39;m   thinking   about   all   day   long   is   is   is   AI   and   like   wanting   to   have   the   AI   in   my   sunglasses   while   I&#39;m   running   so   I   can   do   more   work,   and   then   there&#39;s   other   people   being   like,   it   sucks.   It   doesn&#39;t   work.   You   know,   it&#39;s   not   helpful,   and   I&#39;m   like,   are   we   living   in   the   same   world?   Yeah.   Anyways,   it&#39;ll   be   a   oh,   also   two.   Small   update.   Uh   to   Tesla,   not   to   Tesla,   we   did   not   Tesla.   We   bought   a   uh   Toyota   plug-in   hybrid.   Um,   not   because   we   were   against   Tesla,   but   because   we   realized   that   uh   it&#39;s   actually   a   better   option   for   I   ended   up   doing   opposition   research   because   of   Elon.   And   then   discovered   that   if   we&#39;re   gonna   be   taking   a   lot   of   trips   that   are,   you   know,   um   are   gonna   require   two   or   three   Tesla   charges,   uh   it&#39;s   actually   better   to   get   a   hybrid   for   the   moment   until   we   get   fast   charging.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>40:35</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   yeah,   yeah,   yeah.   Yeah,   like   cheaper   or   just   like   more   flexible   to   have   the   hybrid.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>40:39</time>
      <p>
          More   flexible.   And   like   so   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   gonna   be   um   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   not   gonna   be   cheaper   necessarily.   I   think   the   Tesla   charging   is   still   cheaper,   but   it&#39;s   gonna   be   more   flexible   in   that.   Uh   Teslas   still   take   like   25   minutes   for   like   a   full   charge.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>40:50</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>40:51</time>
      <p>
          Um   and   then   also   if   you&#39;re   going   to   like   remote   areas,   you   don&#39;t   necessarily   have   access   to   superchargers.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>40:56</time>
      <p>
          Like,   especially   in   Canada,   um,   and   given   that   you&#39;re   going   to   remote   areas,   I   think   you   probably   will   have   greater   flexibility   with   uh   like   I   can&#39;t   imagine   that   in   the   middle   of   nowhere   in   Canada   there&#39;s   a   ton   of   superchargers.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>41:09</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   and   that&#39;s   the   thing   is   that   Shima   does   uh   remote   hospitalist   work   sometimes.   And   so   we   might   be   driving   like   six   or   seven   hours   to   work.   I&#39;ll   be   working   remotely   for   a   week   in   like   rural   Ontario,   and   uh   it   it&#39;s   probably   fine,   but   uh   the   thing   is   is   like   if   you&#39;re   in   hybrid   mode,   uh   and   that&#39;s   the   thing   is   you   can   treat   a   Toyota   Prius   as   an   EV.   It&#39;s   got   like   80   kilometers   of   range,   so   if   you&#39;re   just   local   in   the   city,   um   you   just   treat   it   as   an   EV.   And   it&#39;s   only   when   you   need   to   do   these   trips   that   uh   and   and   then   you   can   get   like,   I   don&#39;t   know,   it&#39;s   1200   miles   or   something.   But   the   point   is,   uh   listener   update,   uh,   we   did   not   Tesla,   and   uh   maybe   Elon   can   calm   down   and   uh   we&#39;ll   reconsider   the   next   time   we   get   vehicle   number   two   in   five   years   or   something.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>41:51</time>
      <p>
          It   doesn&#39;t   seem   like   he&#39;s   likely   to   calm   down   anytime   soon.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>41:54</time>
      <p>
          Doesn&#39;t   sound   like   it.   I   think   his   most   recent   tweet   was   it   could   be   very   easy.   That&#39;s   why   I   guess   the   Trump   impression.   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   do   have   an   Elon   impression.   Uh   it   could   be   very   easy   to   escalate,   but   I   will   not.   I   won&#39;t   do   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>42:06</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   like   crazy   time   to   live   in.   All   right,   we   should   we   should   wrap   up.   We   should   wrap   up   because   this   dog   has   to   go   outside.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>42:14</time>
      <p>
          Be   sure   to   check   these   show   notes   either   in   your   podcast   app   or   at   adspthepodcast.com   for   links   to   anything   we   mentioned   in   today&#39;s   episode,   as   well   as   a   link   to   a   GitHub   discussion   where   you   can   leave   thoughts,   comments,   and   questions.   Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>42:27</time>
      <p>
          Low   quality,   high   quality,   that   is   the   tagline   of   our   podcast.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>42:33</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   not   the   tagline.   Our   tagline   is   chaos   with   sprinkles   of   information.
      </p>