

        <cite>Kevlin Henney</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          Now   this   is   the   interesting   question.   What   about   AI?   Well,   in   theory,   I&#39;ve   just   said   that   it   you   can   now   do   anything   you   want.   Yeah,   but   do   people   do   that?   Well,   it   turns   out   they   don&#39;t.   They   tend   to   follow   the   path   that&#39;s   already   been   set.   And   it   turns   out   that   AI   does   this   as   well   and   it   actually   reinforces   it.   Because   all   the   training   data   is   based   on   stuff   that&#39;s   already   out   there.   So   guess   what?   It&#39;s   really   good   at   the   stuff   that&#39;s   already   out   there.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:23</time>
      <p>
          Listen,   folks,   it&#39;s   hot   garbage.   You   know,   whatever   their   ranking   is,   like   Fortran   and   COBOL   are   like   the   two   fastest   growing   languages.
      </p>

        <cite>Damian Maclennan</cite>
      <time>0:31</time>
      <p>
          Um   we&#39;re   still   needed.   Our   insight   is   still   needed.   The   robots   aren&#39;t   going   to   replace   us   just   yet,   and   the   fundamentals   still   matter.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:48</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   265,   recorded   on   December   11th,   2025.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   I   interview   both   Kevlin   Henney   and   Damien.   With   Kevin,   I   chat   about   the   past,   present,   and   future   of   programming   languages.   And   Damien   is   the   technical   director   of   the   Yao   conferences,   and   this   is   his   first   year   in   this   position,   and   he   gives   us   his   review   of   Yao   2025.   But   we   haven&#39;t   talked   yet   about   your   Yao   talk.   I   mean,   technically   it   was   your   Yao   talk,   your   NDC   Oslo   talk,   and   then   I   saw   it   on   YouTube   at   one   point,   so   you   probably   gave   it   at   ACU   or   some   other   conference.   And   fantastic   talk   as   well.   It   changes,   so   depending   on   the   version   you   see   online.   I   mean,   we&#39;ll   probably   link   the   ACCU   one,   maybe   the   NDC   one.   That   one   is,   I   don&#39;t   know   if   the   recordings   are   out   for   that   yet.   They   might   be.   And   changes   every   time.   And   even   right   before   we   started   recording   this,   I   was   like,   ah,   I   gotta   get   set   up   for   a   sec.   And   uh   you   were   uh   you   know   editing   some   slides   and   you&#39;re   injecting   photos   all   the   time.   So   tell   us   a   bit   about   that   talk,   and   then   maybe   uh   maybe   you   can   tell   us   about   uh   predictions   uh   because   I   we   didn&#39;t   get   to   talk   about   that   the   last   time   we   interviewed   you.   One   of   those   the   questions   I   had,   and   admittedly   this   was   like   a   year   plus   ago   now,   it   was   kind   of   like   what   is   your   you   know,   you&#39;ve   given   tons   of   talks   in   the   past   that   cover   different   languages   and   paradigms,   and   you   know,   how   does   uh   the   age   of   AI   and   LLMs   impact,   you   know,   in   your   opinion,   programming   languages   and   you   know   the   languages   that   we&#39;re   learning,   even   if   we&#39;re   not   typing   in   them.   Anyway,   so   you   can   uh   cover   cover   your   talk   and   then   future   predictions.
      </p>

        <cite>Kevlin Henney</cite>
      <time>2:27</time>
      <p>
          Uh   okay,   so   the   first   thing   is   that   uh,   you   know,   uh   the   future,   impossible   to   predict   it   is,   so   I&#39;m   gonna   borrow   from   Yoda   there.   Um   the   so   obviously   there&#39;s   certain   things   that   can   be   wrong   here.   That   the   the   title   of   the   talk   is   one   of   the   most   prosaic   and   literal   that   I&#39;ve   ever   done.   It   is   called   the   past,   present,   and   future   programming   languages.   I   couldn&#39;t   come   up   with   anything   snappier,   but   I   thought,   you   know,   here&#39;s   something.   It   it   it   it   it   does   it   does   what   it   says   on   the   tin.   So   there&#39;s   a   couple   of   aspects   to   that.   I   look   at   the   um   I   guess   there&#39;s   three   three   general   parts   to   it.   One   is   I   look   at   a   number   of   different   language   rankings,   and   without,   you   know,   and   I   I   don&#39;t   push,   I   don&#39;t   lean   on   the   numbers   too   hard,   I&#39;m   just   saying   here   is   here&#39;s   the   language,   here&#39;s   the   language   rankings,   and   they   are   they   are   made   from   different   criteria.   So,   you   know,   um   uh   so   Tyobi,   which   is   Connor&#39;s   least   favorite,   uh   but   what&#39;s   interesting   about   that   is   it   is   susceptible   to   uh   web   search   and   the   SEO.   So   that   gives   us   a   kind   of   like   an   uh   an   indicator   of   its   potential   volatility   but   also   its   biases.   Uh   I   look   at   Red   Monk,   which   is   based   on   um   uh   GitHub   and   Stack   Overflow.   Stack   Overflow   is   not   looking   so   healthy   these   days   as   a   source   of   useful   long-term   data.   And   and   I   also   look   at   IEEE   spectrum,   and   the   point   here   is   that   and   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   looked   at   others,   um   the   they   each   have   their   areas   of   focus,   and   I   don&#39;t   push   too   hard   on   the   numbers.   What   I&#39;m   actually   interested   in,   and   one   of   the   reasons   by   the   way,   folks,   why   the   talk   does   actually   update   is   that   I   will   always   try   and   include   the   latest   version   in   that.   And   I   did   have   to   do   I   the   version   I   have   just   done   in   Sydney   uses   different   rankings   to   the   ones   I   did   earlier   in   the   week   and   last   week   because   you   know   uh   you   know   when   when   a   rank   new   ranking   is   updated,   I   will   incorporate   it.   So   the   point   there   is   to   look   initially   at   the   top   10,   the   top   five,   and   say,   well,   have   they   moved   much?   And   and   then   look   at   the   top   20.   It&#39;s   like,   are   they   moving   much?   Um   and   are   they,   and   then   this   is   the   interesting   thing.   First   of   all,   they&#39;re   not   moving   much.   There   is   movement,   it&#39;s   not   static,   but   it   is   gentle.   The   movement   within   them   is   gentle.   The   stuff   in   the   top   10   is   surprisingly   stable.   There   is   movement   up   and   down,   it&#39;s   not,   it&#39;s   not,   again,   it&#39;s   not   static.   But   the   really   interesting   bit   comes   when   you   look   at   the   age   of   the   languages.   And   I   divide   them   initially,   I   sort   of   say,   okay,   here&#39;s   the   languages   from   the   20th   century,   and   here   are   the   languages   from   the   21st   century.   We   are   a   quarter   of   the   way   through   the   21st   century,   and   21st   century   languages   are   only   just   making   a   dent   in   the   top   20   by   any   ranking.   Okay,   and   it   is   it&#39;s   just   like,   well,   that&#39;s   kind   of   interesting.   And   that   did   not   used   to   be   the   case.   Um   I   then   break   down   the   languages   and   I   say,   okay,   well,   let&#39;s   look   at   their   overall   age.   And   the   fun   bit   is   not   just   to   look,   you   know,   1950s,   1960s,   1970s,   and   whatever,   when   was   the   language   created?   Look   at   it   in   terms   of   social   generations.   And   the   fun   one   is   that   there   is   a   huge   millennial   bump.   Most   the   language,   the   language   space   in   terms   of   the   mainstream   of   what   people   are   using   is   dominated   by   languages   that   will   be   considered   millennials.   Okay?   They   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   kind   of   an   interesting   uh   sort   of   oblique   observation,   but   the   key   thing   here   is   that   the   languages   are   biased   towards   the   old.   So   if   you   think   about   um,   so   we&#39;ve   got   Python,   let&#39;s   think   about   Java,   we&#39;ve   got   C,   we&#39;ve   got   these   are   all   languages   that   are   quite   old.   Uh   C,   yeah,   that&#39;s   still   there   in   anybody&#39;s   top   ten.   It&#39;s   uh,   and   then   we&#39;ve   got   JavaScript,   well   that&#39;s   mid-90s.   Um   we&#39;ve   got   a   few   clearly   coming   in.   TypeScript   is   making,   you   know,   that   is   relatively   modern.   And   then   I   hear   people   talking   about   Rust   and   Go,   and   they&#39;re   saying,   yeah,   but   these   are   these   are   new   languages,   these   are   young   languages.   They&#39;re   not.   Um,   you   know,   Go   is   2009,   it   was   introduced,   okay?   Rust   is   over   10   years   old   at   this   point.   These   are   making   some   kind   of   dent,   but   the   couple   the   couple   of   things   to   be   aware   of   is   first   of   all,   when   we   look   at   any   language   ranking,   the   as   a   humans   we   have   a   bias   towards   any   form   of   ranking.   We   think   it&#39;s   linear,   we   think   of   them   in   linear   terms,   but   they&#39;re   not.   Number   one   is   normally   way   more   adopted   than   whatever   number   two   is,   and   so   on.   By   the   time   you   hit   ten,   it&#39;s   just   that   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   a   skewed   curve.   Not   necessarily   a   power   law,   but   some   of   them   do   look   like   that,   but   it&#39;s   highly   skewed.   So   it   turns   out   that   anybody&#39;s   top   five   or   top   ten,   whatever   ranking,   is   highly   biased   towards   that.   It   has   a   very   long   tail.   And   that&#39;s   really   interesting   because   there   is   a   lot   of   activity   happening   in   the   long   tail.   The   tail   is   getting   longer,   there&#39;s   lots   of   new   languages   to   be   created,   and   new   language   is   easier   these   days   than   it   used   to   be.   You   can   actually   just   make   up   a   spec,   shove   it   at   an   LLM,   and   say,   hey,   you   know,   generate   me   something,   or   pretend   you   are   pretend   you   are   the   interpreter   for   this.   But   what&#39;s   happening   is   that   the   core   is   consolidating,   and   there&#39;s   a   number   of   reasons   for   that,   and   it   is   interesting   to   look   at   the   rate   of   change.   So   if   we   go   back   to   the   90s,   Java   was   introduced   mid-90s.   Within   five   years,   it   was   dominant,   it   was   in   the   top   ten   languages.   That&#39;s   not   the   case   now.   Well,   why?   30   years   ago,   if   you   live,   if   you   were   around   in   the   business   30   years   ago,   you   might   have   thought   the   world   had   a   lot   of   code.   Compared   to   what   it   has   now,   merely   a   fraction.   Most   of   the   code   that   exists   is   the   stuff   people   are   getting   jobs   in.   In   other   words,   it   is   to   extend   existing   systems,   it   is   to   maintain   existing   systems,   it   is   to   work   in   organizations   where   that   is   the   default   culture.   And   so   these   languages   have   a   foothold,   they   have   the   foothold   of   the   incumbent.   It&#39;s   just   that   that&#39;s   where   the   jobs   are,   that&#39;s   where   the   training   is,   that&#39;s   where   the   companies   are.   This   is   not   to   say   that   you&#39;re   not   going   to   get   movement   elsewhere,   but   the   movement   is   being   slowed   down   just   by   the   sheer   presence   of   all   the   other   stuff.   So   there&#39;s   a   deceleration.   Now,   this   is   the   interesting   question.   What   about   AI?   Well,   in   theory,   I&#39;ve   just   said   that   it   you   can   now   do   anything   you   want.   Yeah,   but   do   people   do   that?   Well,   it   turns   out   they   don&#39;t.   They   tend   to   follow   the   path   that&#39;s   already   been   set.   And   it   turns   out   that   AI   does   this   as   well   and   it   actually   reinforces   it   because   all   the   training   data   is   based   on   stuff   that&#39;s   already   out   there.   So   guess   what?   It&#39;s   really   good   at   the   stuff   that&#39;s   already   out   there.   And   this   is   an   observation   Anders   Helsberg,   um   uh   inventor,   you   know,   designer   of   TypeScript   and   C   Sharp   and   Toby   Pascal,   he   made   this   observation   as   well.   It&#39;s   just   like   there&#39;s   all   of   this   data   out   there.   The   amount   of   Python   uh   code   out   there,   the   amount   of   blogs   about   Python,   the   amount   of   training   material   is   just   staggering.   So   automatically   you   have   a   bias   in   an   already   biased   landscape.   Um   it   reinforces   that.   It   just   puts,   you   know,   touches   the   scales   a   bit,   puts   the   thumb   on   the   scales   even   more.   But   what   is   interesting   is   the   more   recent   trend   that   I&#39;ve   noticed   is   the   way   that   LLMs   are   using   languages.   So,   you   you   know,   how   many   R&#39;s   are   there   in   Strawberry?   If   you   haven&#39;t   come   across   this   one,   this   is   quite   a   fun   one.   A   couple   of   years   ago,   if   you   asked   ChatGPT   how   many   R&#39;s   are   in   Strawberry,   it   would   tell   you   two.   You   know,   typically   the   LLMs,   because   they   don&#39;t   think   about   words   the   way   that   we   think   about   them.   They   don&#39;t   have   that,   uh,   they   don&#39;t   have   that   kind   of   relationship   to   the   letter,   the   visualization,   and   all   the   rest   of   it.   You   know,   you   it   feels   really   odd.   I   can   see   that   there   are   three   R&#39;s   on   the   screen.   How   come   you   can&#39;t?   Well,   that&#39;s   not   how   LLMs   work.   But   what   is   interesting   is   that   their   answers   are   getting   better.   And   they&#39;re   not   getting   better   just   because   people   are   putting   if   statements   in   around,   oh,   we&#39;re   gonna   ask   the   strawberry   question.   They&#39;re   getting   better   because   um   the   way   that   LLMs   are   being   couched   and   surrounded   by   other   software   is   like,   wait   a   minute,   this   is   a   problem   that   is   already   solved.   How   is   it   solved?   It&#39;s   solved   by   programming.   And   that&#39;s   what   is   interesting   is   uh,   I   guess   about   six   months   ago,   I   asked   the   R   I   asked   the   R&#39;s   and   strawberry   question   to   ChatGPT   and   Gemini,   and   they   both   gave   me   the   right   answer.   And   I   asked   each   of   them,   how   are   you   doing   this?   And   they   both   said,   Yeah,   we   wrote   Python   code.   You   know,   so   you   know,   show   me   the   code.   And   they   showed   me   the   code   that   did   literally   count   the   number   of   R&#39;s.   Here   is   the   word,   and   here   is   how   you   write   the   code.   What   is   funny   is   that   the   latest   Gemini,   so   I   checked   this   out   a   couple   of   weeks   ago   when   I   was   updating   the   slides.   I   don&#39;t   even   have   to   ask   it.   When   I   ask,   when   I   don&#39;t   even   have   to   ask   it   how   did   you   do   this?   When   I   ask   it   how   many   R&#39;s   are   in   strawberry,   it   actually   has   a   tag   saying   show   code.   In   other   words,   the   whole   point   is   LLMs   are   now   consumers   of   programming   languages.   They   look   at   something   and   go,   yeah,   I   could   kind   of   like   wave   my   hands   at   this   problem   and   do   it,   you   know,   LLMly,   if   that&#39;s   a   if   that&#39;s   an   adverb.   Um,   you   know,   I   could   I   could   take   advantage   of   this   kind   of   like   pattern   matching   ability,   or   I   could   recognize   that   using   my   pattern   matching   ability,   this   is   a   really   classic   programming   thing.   I   shall   write   some   code,   and   that   I   think   is   interesting.   So   LLMs   are   becoming   consumers   of   our   languages,   and   by   default,   it   shows   Python.   So   there&#39;s   a   reinforcement   again   that   we   are   seeing.   There&#39;s   all   of   these   things   that   are   effectively   decelerating   what&#39;s   happening   in   the   mainstream   of   languages.   Um,   which   is   not   to   say   that   there   isn&#39;t   interesting   stuff   happening.   I   just   want   to   say   that&#39;s   out   on   the   long   tail.   Whether   it   breaks   through   to   the   mainstream,   well,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   the   road   has   got   a   lot   steeper.   That&#39;s   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   kind   of   the   issue.   Uh,   and   that&#39;s   part   of   the   thesis   of   the   talk.   I   also   have   a   bit   of   fun   in   the   middle   of   the   talk   talking   about   where,   how   old   some   of   the   features   we   think   of   actually   are   and   how   they   are   rolling   into,   still   rolling   into   languages.   So   maybe   you   got   excited   about   the   fact   that   your   language   is   adopted   or   now   allows   you   to   do   multiple   assignments,   A,   B   equals   C,   D.   That&#39;s   a   1963   idea   right   there.   And   there   were   languages   in   the   70s,   and   it&#39;s   slowly   been   coming   into   languages.   Maybe   your   language   has   a   yield   keyword   or   equivalent   to   allow   you   to   do   kind   of   co-routine   or   iterator-like   stuff.   Yeah,   that&#39;s   a   nine,   that&#39;s   a   mid-1970s   idea.   The   thing   is   that   these   innovations   of   the   60s   and   70s   are   still   working   their   way   into   languages   now,   and   there&#39;s   not   a   lot   of   novelty   in   the   mainstream   space.   And   that&#39;s   kind   of   reinforcing   itself.   I   think   what   we&#39;re   gonna   see   is   in   the   next   decade   or   two   is   that   languages   adopt   these   features.   Um,   so   Python   in   10   years   is   probably   gonna   have   a   whole   raft   more   features.   C   is   gonna,   well,   C,   every   three   years   there&#39;s   something   radically   different   about   C.   It&#39;s   gonna   have   a   whole   more   load   more   stuff,   but   it&#39;s   still   called   C.   So   the   languages   are   changing   in   place,   but   the   set   of   languages   is   changing   ever   more   slowly.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:50</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   what   to   add   and   what   to   ask.   I   mean,   so   T   I   O   B   E,   I   can&#39;t   have   it   mentioned   without   just   C   piling   on   a   little   bit   more.   Listen,   folks,   it&#39;s   hot   garbage.   You   know,   whatever   their   ranking   is,   like   Fortran   and   COBOL   are   like   the   two   fastest   growing   languages.   I   think   Fortran,   I   don&#39;t   know.   This   week,   no,   not   this.   Not   this   week?   Alright,   well,   at   some   point   there   was   like   three   arrows   next   to   Fortran   or   COBOL   or   one   of   them.   And   what   are   you   what   are   you   talking   about?   Just   because   uh   a   couple   banks   were   hiring   a   couple   people.
      </p>

        <cite>Kevlin Henney</cite>
      <time>13:19</time>
      <p>
          Smooth   it,   smooth   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>13:20</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   and   then   another   thing   is   interesting   is   that   uh   Stack   Overflow,   it&#39;s   on   its   last   legs.   Uh   Languish,   one   of   the   sites   that   I   linked   to   in   plrank.com,   it   uh   hasn&#39;t   actually   updated   its   latest,   they   usually   do   it   on   a   quarterly   basis,   and   it   should   have   been   updated   in   October,   but   I   know   the   guy,   Tom   Palmer,   that   does   the   site   context-free   on   YouTube.   Link   in   the   show   notes.   Stack   Overflow   like   can&#39;t   even   run   its   queries   anymore   that   he   uses   to   generate   the   data.   And   so   he   was   just   I   think   he   just   threw   his   hands   up   after   a   couple   attempts.   So,   anyways,   you   mentioned   Stack   Overflow   and   it   not   doing   too   well,   and   uh   it&#39;s   probably   uh   a   website   that   has   gives   uh   hints   that   are   may   or   may   not   be   out   of   date   when   we   now   have   like   perfect   tools.   Um   anyway,   so   yeah,   languish,   stack   overflow,   T   I   O   B   E.   I   totally   agree.   I   mean,   if   you   look   at   the   rankings,   you   basically   are   just   showing   the   facts.   I   mean,   technically,   according   to   some   sites,   Go,   I   think,   is   ranked   ninth   or   eighth.   So   I   think   I   think   it&#39;s   in   the   10.   It   has   actually   hit   the   top   uh   10.   But   it&#39;s   funny   because   I   I   usually   every   year   in   January   I   make   three   programming   language   predictions.   And   I   usually   go   one   for   three   or   two   for   three,   but   one   of   my   predictions   since   I   started   doing   it   two   or   three   years   ago   was   that   Rust,   which   I   think   is   ranked   like   13th   or   12th,   uh,   it&#39;s   gonna   it&#39;s   gonna   break   into   the   top   10.   And   every   year   it   doesn&#39;t,   it   just   stays   where   it   is.   I   can&#39;t   remember   if   I   predicted   it   last   year.   Anyway,   so   yeah,   I&#39;m   always,   yeah,   you   always   think,   oh,   there&#39;s   a   lot   of   momentum,   but   you   forget   how   many   decades   and   millions,   if   not   billions   of   lines   of   C   code   there   are   out   there,   and   that&#39;s   what   you&#39;re   competing   against.   And   I   I   guess   I   did   see   that   in   the   Octoverse   survey   this   year   by   GitHub   that   I   can&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   know   if   it   was   TypeScript   that   switched   with   Python,   but   they   had   something   and   their   theory,   because   they   kind   of   uh   pontificate   as   to   why,   it&#39;s   that   for   LLMs   generating   code,   they   use   TypeScript   way   more   often   than   JavaScript   because   it   gives   them   another   uh   feedback   mechanism   to   see,   you   know,   did   I   get   the   typing   of   this   stuff   right?   Anyway,   so   I   guess   the   question   is   uh   if   you   had   to,   I   guess   maybe   not   predict   the   future,   but   how   are   these,   you   know,   what   people   are   reaching   for?   Is   that   is   it   is   it   gonna   be   you   know   business   as   usual   and   for   the   next   five,   ten   years   we&#39;re   not   gonna   see   some   big   shift,   or   is   there   gonna   be   more   stuff   like   the   TypeScript   taking   over   JavaScript?
      </p>

        <cite>Kevlin Henney</cite>
      <time>15:30</time>
      <p>
          Uh   yeah,   I   think   the   TypeScript   um   GitHub   one   is   interesting.   Don&#39;t   forget   the   TypeScript   is   Microsoft.   Hey,   and   so   is   GitHub.   So,   you   know,   it   it&#39;s   this   kind   of   there&#39;s   an   interesting   thing   there.   Uh   that   Anders   Halsberg   uh   interview,   maybe   I&#39;ll   uh   send   Connor   the   link   because   that&#39;s   an   interesting   one,   because   uh   he&#39;s   obviously   talking   about   TypeScript   there.   But   there   is   a   case   that   in   in   some   of   these,   some   of   these   cases,   every   every   single   ranking   is   going   to   have   some   kind   of   spotlight   bias   on   what   it   focuses   on.   The   one   that   I   talk   about   in   the   talk   is   I   always   say,   well,   when   looking   at   GitHub,   one   has   to   be,   I   don&#39;t   actually   talk   about   the   Microsoft   bias   there   because   that&#39;s   not   actually   representative   of   people   that   use   it.   But   what   I   always   point   out   is   that   some   cultures   and   groups   of   people   are   freer   at   sharing   code   than   others.   So   you&#39;re   not   going   to   find   COBOL   programmers   committing   to   GitHub.   But   interestingly,   you&#39;ll   find   a   lot   of   JavaScripts   will   quite   happily   put   a   single   function   up   there,   but   C   programmers   are   less   likely   to   put   small   elements   up   there.   There&#39;s   no,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   not   C   is   not   the   kind   of   culture   that   is   the   NPM   culture   of   JavaScript.   Um   the   level   although   there&#39;s   open.   Exactly.   So   the   point   there   is   there   is   a   bias,   so   Rust   gets   very   well   represented   as   a   language   that   has   grown   up   in   the   open   source   space   and   has   you   know   a   kind   of   end-to-end   sort   of   support   for   packaging   distribution   of   the   work.   So   there&#39;s   always   going   to   be   that   kind   of   nudge.   And   in   particular,   new   software   is   going   to   be   much   more   clear,   new   code   is   going   to   be   much   more   clearly   represented   than   old   code   locked   away   behind   corporate   doors   and   the   closed   source   space.   So   we   must   always   be   sensitive   to   these.   But   the   general   sense   I&#39;m   getting   is   that   yeah,   there&#39;s   movement   in   Rust,   there&#39;s   movement   in   Go,   but   always   remembering   that   that   kind   of   the   fact   that   whatever   is   at   number   10   in   whatever   ranking   is   probably   an   order   of   magnitude   lower   in   adoption   than   whatever   is   at   number   one.   So   Rust   and   Go,   yeah,   having   done   variations   of   this   talk   for   over   a   year,   but   also   look   back   over   some   previous   years,   they   are   moving   slowly   up   and   they&#39;re   about   to   kind   of   break   in   on   some   rankings,   not   others.   Rust   has   benefited   hugely   from   um   basically,   you   know,   Linux   has   said,   yeah,   we   all   allow   some   in.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   a   case   of   you&#39;ve   got   that   acknowledged   by   that   community.   Microsoft   have   been   saying   for   years   that   many   of   the   issues,   security   and   other   bugs,   it&#39;s   just   like,   oh,   when   we   do   this   in   Rust,   it&#39;s   a   lot   better.   So   you&#39;ve   got   somebody   like   Microsoft,   you&#39;ve   got   somebody   you&#39;ve   got   Microsoft   and   Linux   effectively   on   the   same   side,   which   is   like   bizarre.   Then   you&#39;ve   got   the   US   government   going   like,   yeah,   you   want   to   be   careful   about   certain   memory   safety   languages,   which   is   inspire   things   happening   in   the   C   space,   but   more   importantly,   has   again   shot   uh   shone   the   spotlight   um   on   other   languages   that   uh   have   a   slightly   more   rigorous   approach   to   how   they   think   about   memory.   So   these   are   all   nudges.   That&#39;s   gonna   change   something,   but   uh   there&#39;s   nothing   radical   happening   overnight.   So   my   prediction   for   the   next   five   years   is   those   languages   are   probably   gonna   be   continuing   their   kind   of   upward   trend,   but   they   are   just   outside   the   space   where   there   is   the   killer   app   or   the   reason   why   everybody   suddenly   wants   to   do   it.   And   you   know,   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   the   thing.   JavaScript,   you   know,   kids   are   learning   JavaScript   because   there&#39;s   this   kind   of   like   unholy   trinity   of   JavaScript,   HTML,   and   CSS.   If   you   want   to   get   into   programming   and   do   stuff   at   home,   then   that&#39;s   one   of   the   ways.   You   you&#39;re   out   on   the   web   with   those   three.   Alternatively,   use   Python,   because   they   teach   it   at   school,   but   also   it   gets   used   um   for   build   systems,   oh,   and   also   it   gets   used   by   data   scientists   and   all   it   in   other   words,   it&#39;s   very   well   represented   in   uh   quite   distinct   communities.   There&#39;s   not   one   reason   Python   is   there,   but   there&#39;s   actually   half   a   dozen   to   a   dozen,   and   that&#39;s   a   gonna   be   a   hard   one   to   dislodge,   um,   even   without   the   question   of   incumbent   code.   It&#39;s   just   represented   so   well.   So   you   kind   of   need   a   language   to   have   a   either   a   really   strong   specific   appeal   that   suddenly   becomes   hugely   popular.   Uh   Objective-C   and   the   Apple   ecosystem,   or   from   Next   originally,   but   that   took   a   language   that   was   dead.   I   I   I   saw   uh   Objective-C   in   the   early   90s   and   it   was   already   on   its   way   out.   Uh   that   was   Stepstone   Corporation,   and   it   was   only   because   of   Next   Step   and   then   well,   no,   not   even   Next   Step.   It   was   Apple   buying   Next   Step   and   saying,   hey,   we&#39;re   gonna   use   this   for   uh   Mac   OS   and   for   then   iOS.   That   made   that,   and   now   it   is   dropping   like   a   stone   because   of   Swift.   It&#39;s   not   dead   yet,   but   it   is   dropping   like   a   stone   because   it   relied   on   one   source   of   support.   You   need   a   language   that   has   broad   support,   and   there&#39;s   a   and   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   the   key.   I   think   that&#39;s   gonna   be   the   key   to   any   language&#39;s   uh   uptake.   Uh   a   killer   app   broad   support,   uh   representation   across   a   lot   of   uh   a   lot   of   disparate   spaces,   and   that&#39;s   gonna   drive   these   things.   Everything   else   is   just   gonna   move   up   and   down   a   little   nudge   at   a   time,   various   reasons.   Assistance   programmers   kind   of   say,   ah,   I&#39;ve   got   enough   performance,   maybe   I&#39;ll   go   for   an   interpreted   language   uh   or   a   VM-based   language,   it&#39;s   okay.   Stuff   is   fast   enough,   maybe   I   didn&#39;t   need   to   worry   about   the   speed   I   thought   I   needed   a   decade   ago.   So   you   know,   I   think   that&#39;s   one   of   the   things   that   I   think   if   you   dropped   into   a   time   machine   and   went   back   to   2005   and   said,   guess   what   we   use   to   do   a   lot   of   uh   uh   you   know,   a   lot   of   our   work.   Uh   oh,   what   do   you   do?   Number   crunching,   oh   okay,   what   are   you   using?   Are   you   using   C   C   plus?   Ah,   we&#39;re   using   Python.   So   they   would   just   laugh   in   your   face.   Um   we&#39;ve   we&#39;ve   we&#39;ve   got   to   a   point   where   the   the   landscape   has   changed   in   terms   of   performance   and   library   relationships,   you   know.   Um   so   I   think   that   I&#39;m   not   gonna   make   any   specifically   wrong   predictions,   but   these   are   all   kind   of   vague   suggestions.   Obviously,   my   role   as   futurologist,   you   know,   that   uh   I   I   gotta   say   something   safe.   But   uh   yeah,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   gonna   move   in   gentle   ways.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:08</time>
      <p>
          Alright,   well   I   just   uh   heard   the   applause   of   uh   the   uh   Sam   Aaron   uh   closing   keynote,   or   I   don&#39;t   actually   know   if   it&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   the   last   talk   of   uh   day   one.   So   we&#39;re   gonna   be   flooded   by   a   couple   people,   but   last   two   questions   that   we   can   do   rapid   fire.   One   uh   if   you   would   point   people   at   one   talk,   or   if   two   if   you   have   to   from   the   Yao   conference   uh   that   were   your   personal   favorites   that   you   saw,   and   then   two,   uh   it&#39;s   the   end   of   2025,   so   maybe   2026   hasn&#39;t   happened,   uh,   your   scheduling   of   conferences.   But   if   you&#39;re   gonna   be   anywhere,   you   know,   uh   let   the   people   know   where   they   can   find   you.   And   we&#39;ve   got   like   60   seconds   before   uh   the   noise   here   is   gonna   quadruple   in   uh   decibel   level.
      </p>

        <cite>Kevlin Henney</cite>
      <time>21:46</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   Sam   Aaron&#39;s   talk,   absolutely   brilliant.   Sam   Aaron   uh   created   Sonic   Pi.   Um   there&#39;s   some   really   good   stuff   there.   Um   uh   Catherine   Jumwell&#39;s   talk   on   uh   basically   kind   of   hacking   AI.   Um   Is   really   also   worth   uh   catching,   and   likewise   um   Michael   Feather&#39;s   uh   talk   on   conceptualization.   I   would   recommend   these.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:08</time>
      <p>
          And   uh   and   where   are   you   do   you   have   a   conference   schedule   for   2026   yet?   Early   good   question.
      </p>

        <cite>Kevlin Henney</cite>
      <time>22:13</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   there&#39;s   a   lot   of   maybes.   Um   I&#39;m   hoping   to   be   at   Kraft   and   Budapest.   Um   I&#39;m   expecting   to   be   I&#39;m   doing   Voxt   uh   at   CERN   and   then   into   Chino.   Um   and   I   think   the   rest   are   just   guesswork   and   hope.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:30</time>
      <p>
          Thanks   so   much,   Kevlin.   We&#39;ll   do   this   again   sometime.   We   might   take   this   on   to   the   end   of   episode   265.   We   were   just   chatting   with   Kevlin.   Uh   I&#39;m   okay.   I&#39;ve   just   been   offered   a   vegetarian   something   something.   We&#39;re   we&#39;re   talking   to   Damien,   technical   director.   And   Damien   just   stepped   into   this   role   six   months   ago.   Took   over   for   I   believe   Stefan.   Am   I   pronouncing   that   correctly?   So   I   I   Stefan   reached   out   to   me,   I   think,   a   year   ago,   asking   if   I   wanted   to   speak   at   the   2024   edition.   I   was   uh   already   had   commitments,   but   then   I   said   I&#39;d   love   to   next   year,   and   then   you   swooped   in   halfway   through.   So   uh   this   is   your   first,   I   mean   not   your   first   Yao,   but   first   Yao   as   technical   director.   You&#39;ve   been   I   think   you   said   you&#39;ve   been   coming   since   basically   the   Genesis.   15   years.   15   years.   So   uh   tell   us   how   has   this   edition   uh   being   technical   director   gone?   What   were   your   favorite   talks?   What   were   the   highlights,   and   uh   what   can   people   expect?   Because   I   imagine   you&#39;re   gonna   be   reorganizing   this   edition   next   year.   Uh   so   yeah,   just   tell   us   uh   all   the   things   and   uh   what   people   can   expect   in   2026.
      </p>

        <cite>Damian Maclennan</cite>
      <time>23:32</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   too   early   to   tell   for   2026.   We   need   to   we   need   to   debrief   this   one.   Um   look,   I&#39;ve   really   enjoyed   this   year.   It&#39;s   been   a   really   nice   program,   a   good   mix   of   speakers.   I   think   the   last   few   years   everyone   was   very   scared   of   AI.   I   think   what   we&#39;re   seeing   uh   with   this   edition   is   we   still   have   jobs,   there&#39;s   still   a   future.   Um,   we&#39;re   still   needed,   our   insight   is   still   needed,   the   the   robots   aren&#39;t   going   to   replace   us   just   yet,   and   the   fundamentals   still   matter.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:58</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   mean,   we   saw   in   a   couple   different   talks   the   same   or   same   slide,   not   exactly,   but   they   would   say   that,   you   know,   in   this   age   of,   you   know,   the   age   of   AI   and   LLMs,   it&#39;s   actually   more   developers   that   are   needed,   not   less.   Uh   and   this   idea   that   like   junior   developers   are   no   longer   is   the   complete   opposite   of   that   the   case.   It&#39;s   like   we&#39;re   in   a   world   now   where   it&#39;s   the   on-ramp   to   coding   has   gotten   even   easier.   How   is   that   gonna   lead   to   less   jobs?   So   uh   I   think   that&#39;s   a   fantastic   sentiment.   I   mean,   you&#39;ve   seen   a   number   of   the   talks.   Uh   I   mean   it&#39;s   hard   to   it&#39;s   like   picking   favorites   uh   with   kids   and   stuff,   but   if   you   had   to   recommend   one   or   two   or   three,   uh   what   are   the   first   ones   you   would   point   people   at   once   uh   because   these   are   gonna   be   up   on   YouTube,   which   ones   would   you   point   people   at?
      </p>

        <cite>Damian Maclennan</cite>
      <time>24:38</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   a   that&#39;s   a   tough   thing   for   to   ask   me.   I   can&#39;t   answer   that   one.   Um   they&#39;re   all   good.   Look,   I   think   I   think   the   opening   keynote,   I   think   Kent   Kent&#39;s   talk   gives   a   lot   of   hope   for   people.   And   again,   it   is   that   we&#39;re   still   needed.   The   junior   thing   was   especially   good.   A   lot   of   people   have   looked   at   AI   as   a   replacement   for   juniors   because   it&#39;s   more   productive.   And   Kent&#39;s   insight   that   we   don&#39;t   get   juniors   for   their   productivity,   we&#39;re   essentially   taking   an   option   on   their   future   productivity,   and   so   get   the   juniors,   teach   them,   use   the   AI,   use   the   AI   to   teach   them,   and   then   you   know,   it&#39;s   an   investment   into   the   future.   So   I   think   that   was   a   really   nice,   hopeful   message   for   everybody.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>25:16</time>
      <p>
          Completely   agree.   And   also   we   we   also   had   a   conversation   earlier   in   the   week   that   was   about   how   in   the   in   this   age   of   uh   remote   work,   because   I   work   entirely   remote,   that   these   conferences   honestly   have   for   me   become   even   more   important   because   the   socializing   that   I   it&#39;s   not   socializing   is   the   wrong   word,   but   it   is   it&#39;s   a   form   of   socializing   and   networking.   Uh   I   miss   out   on   that   entirely   as   I   work   remote.   And   you   can   get   basically   a   concentrated   version   of   that,   not   just   from   employees   at   your   company,   but   across   the   industry   and   hear   different   stories.   Anyways,   and   you   were   saying   basically   that   we   have   to   do   a   better   job,   or   I   mean   you&#39;re   a   conference   technical   director   of   putting   that   message   out   there   that   you   know   this   has   really   even   become   a   more   valuable   thing,   which,   anyways,   I&#39;ll   let   you   add   to   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Damian Maclennan</cite>
      <time>25:57</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   look,   absolutely.   Um   in   the   last   few   years,   we&#39;ve   seen   like   a   lot   of   the   content   that   people   come   to   conferences   for,   you   can   find   that   online.   There&#39;s   so   much   of   it   on   YouTube.   What   you   cannot   get   on   YouTube   is   what   we&#39;re   doing   right   now.   The   hallway   track,   standing   around,   meeting   people,   discussing   the   talks,   you   know,   exchanging   ideas,   and   we&#39;ve   exchanged   a   lot   of   ideas   this   week.   Um   there&#39;s   been   some   robust   exchanging   of   ideas.   Uh,   this   hallway   track   cannot   be   replaced,   and   yes,   it   is   even   more   important.   Like   you,   I&#39;ve   worked   remote   for   many,   many   years.   I&#39;ve   long   said,   Yawa&#39;s   my   Christmas   party,   this   is   where   I   come   to   hang   out   with   my   people.   So,   but   yeah,   I   think   I   think   we   need   to   get   that   message   out   there   that   conferences   are   more   important   than   ever.   Because   you   don&#39;t   get   this   online.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>26:39</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   think   it   was,   I   hadn&#39;t   attended   my   first   conference   this   year   was   in   September.   And   you   don&#39;t   realize   what   you   have   until   you&#39;re   reminded.   And   then   when   I   went,   I   was   like,   oh   my   god,   like   I&#39;ve   forgotten   what   it&#39;s   like   to   give   a   talk   in   person   where   people   immediately   come   up   afterwards   and   they   tell   you,   like,   you   can   give   an   online   talk,   you   maybe   get   one   or   two   questions   in   the   chat,   yeah,   and   then   it   just   poof,   the   screen   goes   black,   and   you&#39;re   kind   of   there&#39;s   like   a   little   bit   of   an   emptiness   inside.
      </p>

        <cite>Damian Maclennan</cite>
      <time>27:05</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   exhausting,   it&#39;s   exhausting   as   well.   I&#39;ve   done   remote   training   just   with   to   30   people   with   their   screens   off,   and   it&#39;s   no   fun   for   anybody.   Um,   so   yeah,   something   I   will   say   is   most   years   at   Yao   when   I&#39;ve   come,   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   walked   away   just   super   inspired.   Like   I   want   to   go   on   a   bill,   I   want   to   go   away   and   build   something.   And   I   felt   that   again   this   this   time   around   with   Yao.   Even   though   I&#39;m   working   here   and   you   know   I&#39;m   running   around   doing   a   bunch   of   things,   I   sit   and   I   watch   your   talk,   and   I&#39;m   like,   I   need   to   build,   I   need   to   build.   I&#39;m   gonna   pick   up   that   project   that   I&#39;d   abandoned.   So   um,   yeah,   I   I   I   always   get   very   inspired   at   Yao   and   want   to   come   away   wanting   to   do   stuff.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:40</time>
      <p>
          So   definitely   feeling   that.   100%.   I   feel   the   exact   same   way.   Anyways,   thank   you   for   talking.   Hopefully,   this   is   audible   listeners.   They   closed   the   doors   and   uh   the   decibel   value.   So   we   uh   if   it&#39;s   not   good,   we&#39;ll   get   you,   we&#39;ll   just   have   to   come   back   next   year   and   do   another   interview.   But   uh   thank   you   so   much.   Thank   you.   Thank   you   for   coming,   it&#39;s   been   great.   No,   it&#39;s   been   awesome.   Be   sure   to   check   these   show   notes   either   in   your   podcast   app   or   at   adspthepodcast.com   for   links   to   anything   we   mentioned   in   today&#39;s   episode,   as   well   as   a   link   to   a   GitHub   discussion   where   you   can   leave   thoughts,   comments,   and   questions.   Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.   Our   tagline   is   chaos   with   sprinkles   of   information.
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