

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          The   hat   is   back!   I&#39;m   so   excited   that   the   hat   is   back!   I   know,   my   hair&#39;s   amazing.   So   Conn   Connor   usually   wears   a   hat.   Like   when   he&#39;s   on   uh   when   he&#39;s   on   Zoom,   and   then   there   was   like   a   three-week   period   where   there   was   no   hat,   and   uh   I   don&#39;t   like   change,   so   I   didn&#39;t   like   it   very   much.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:29</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   26,   recorded   on   May   19th,   2021.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   interview   Sean   Perrin   for   the   second   time.   This   is   part   one   of   our   two-part   interview   with   him,   where   we   talk   about   slide   decks,   UI,   and   so   much   more.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:48</time>
      <p>
          Have   you   uh   have   you   fixed   your   audio   setup   so   that   you&#39;re   no   longer   recording   in   a   uh   in   a   closet?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:55</time>
      <p>
          No,   man.   This   is   uh   you   haven&#39;t   listened   to   the   last   uh   episode,   um,   but   my   audio   has   never   been   crispier.   It   is   it   is   so   crispy.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:04</time>
      <p>
          So   you&#39;re   in   the   closet,   aren&#39;t   you?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:06</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   We&#39;re   doing   a   little   experiment   today   because   I   have   acquired   uh   two   chairs.   So   now   I   have   three   chairs.   Um   and   the   chairs   that   I   have,   I   got,   I   I   mentioned   before,   I   got   from   my   sister.   And   this   one   is   not   like   a   desk   chair,   though,   so   it   doesn&#39;t   have   any   cushion   or   fabric   on   it.   It&#39;s   just   like   a   lightweight   uh   I   don&#39;t   know,   sort   of   party   chair.   And   uh   we&#39;ll   see.   Maybe   I&#39;ll   have   to   revert   back   to   the   office   chair   if   if   my   audio   is   not   as   crispy   anymore   because   fabric   equals   less   echo.   I&#39;m   like   I&#39;m   on   my   way   to   becoming   an   audiophile.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:41</time>
      <p>
          I   was   about   to   say   you&#39;re   such   an   audiophile,   Merton.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:45</time>
      <p>
          Except   it&#39;s   so   sad   because   like   I&#39;m   wearing   I   have   these   like   a   hundred   dollar   sports   uh   Bose   like   uh   running   headphones   that   I&#39;m   using.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>1:55</time>
      <p>
          Wait,   was   that   was   that   supposed   to   mean   that   those   headphones   are   not   impressive   enough?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:59</time>
      <p>
          No,   yeah,   like   an   audiophile   would   have   some   $700   uh,   you   know,   with   some   special   cables   and   stuff   that   I   don&#39;t   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:06</time>
      <p>
          But   you   you   you   realize   that   it&#39;s   pretty   privileged   that   you   just   you   just   said,   oh   yeah,   I   only   have   these   hundred   dollar   bows   uh   headphones.   I   don&#39;t   have   the   $700   headphones.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>2:19</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   my   bad.   I   I   should   check   my   privilege.   But   um   if   you   can   if   you   can   see   like   the   the   little   plastic   casing   around   the   wires   is   all   like   torn   up   and   I&#39;m   about   to   electrocute   myself   one   of   these   days.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:30</time>
      <p>
          Um   audience,   these   uh   these   headphones   are   not   in   good   shape.   I&#39;m   actually   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   very   excited   because   uh   since   we   last   talked,   Sean   has   submitted   uh   his   committee   paper   on   um   moved   from   objects,   which   we   just   scheduled   last   week.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>2:47</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah.   Scheduled   for   out   in   in   August,   which   seems   like   a   long   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:52</time>
      <p>
          But   um   Yes,   un   unfortunately,   unfortunately,   with   uh   with   how   our   schedule   during   the   pandemic   is,   August   is   w   the   first   time   chance   that   we&#39;ll   get   to   look   at   it.   But   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   excited   for   it.   It&#39;s   it&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   probably   been   a   few   years   since   you&#39;ve   you&#39;ve   been   at   a   C   committee   meeting   or   Yeah,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   been   quite   a   while.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>3:11</time>
      <p>
          This   came   about   uh   because   uh   John   Lakos   approached   me   at   ACCU   virtually   and   he&#39;s   working   on   his   new   book,   and   he   said   that   he   knew   that   I   had   an   annoyance   with   uh   move   semantics   and   wanted   me   to   write   something   up   on   it.   So   I   wrote   about   three   pages   for   his   book,   and   then   he   suggested   he   said,   you   know,   this   would   be   a   better   three   pages   if   it   could   reference   a   standards   proposal   to   fix   it.   So   I   wrote   the   standards   proposal   to   fix   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:44</time>
      <p>
          See,   see   you   got   you   got   nerd   sniped.   That   is   a   that   is   that   is   a   pro-Lakos   movie.   That   is   a   pro-Lakos.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>3:51</time>
      <p>
          Yep,   to   get   somebody   to   write   a   paper.   Yeah,   yeah.   Lakos   is   a   notorious   manipulator,   so.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>3:57</time>
      <p>
          I   assume   that   both   of   you   have   seen   John   Lakos   give   a   talk.   I   love   how   that   man   gives   a   talk.   And   I   in   particular,   I   really   appreciate   how   he   makes   a   slide   deck   because   he   does   it   he   does   it   the   same   way   where   that   I   do,   where   I   don&#39;t   put   any   transitions   into   my   slides,   but   instead   I&#39;ll   have   like   multiple   slides   that   will   like,   you   know,   if   I   wanted   to   have   a   slide   with   transition,   I&#39;ll   have   a   few   different   slides,   each   one   that   adds   an   another   element   to   the   to   the   last   slide.   Uh   and   I   don&#39;t   really   know   why   I   do   that.   I   guess   it&#39;s   just   like   uh   I   feel   like   it   gives   me   a   little   bit   more   control   and   it   and   uh   and   then   it   exports   to   PDF   better.   Um   uh   but   uh   so   so   as   a   result   of   this,   John   Lakos   will   come   to   give   an   hour-long   talk   and   he&#39;ll   be   like,   oh   yeah,   I&#39;ve   got   800   slides.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>4:43</time>
      <p>
          Yep.   Yeah.   Every   time   I&#39;m   working   on   a   slide   deck,   I   have   to   resist   the   urge   of   writing   my   own   slide   deck   engine   because   it&#39;s   uh   I   can&#39;t   find   a   tool   that   does   what   I   want.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:55</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   think   I   recall   I   asked   you   once   in   your   C   seasoning   talk   how   you   did   the   really   nice   uh   like   sliding   code   up   the   screen,   and   I   w   I   was   expecting,   oh,   it&#39;s   gonna   be   something   super   fancy,   but   you   basically   did   it   like   the   classic,   I   think   like   just   big   images,   and   then   you   like   move   it   up   the   screen   and   then   it   looks   like   it&#39;s   sliding.   Uh   but   it&#39;s   done   so   like   flawlessly   that   I   thought   for   sure   you   had   some   like   custom   Adobe   uh   like   unreleased   keynote   or   PowerPoint.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>5:23</time>
      <p>
          No,   but   no,   that   was   done   painfully   and   manually   in   keynote.   And   so   yeah. Yeah,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>5:31</time>
      <p>
          I   I   would   that   there&#39;s   not   many   things   that   I   would   like   really   believe   and   invest   in,   but   if   Sean   Parent   wanted   to   make   a   slide   engine,   that   I   would   get   on   board   with.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>5:42</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   funny   how   many   times   there&#39;s   been   at   least   like   a   handful   of   slide   decks   or   presentations   that   I&#39;ve   seen.   I   can   remember   one   too.   Sean   M,   I&#39;m   gonna   I&#39;m   gonna   forget   his   last   name.   He   works   at   Google,   and   he   was   did   a   talk   on   coroutines   in   Kotlin.   And   he   did   this   like   little   history   of   coroutines,   and   it   was   like   zoom   in,   zoom   out,   all   this   just   amazing.   And   I   thought   he   must   be   using   Prezi,   must   be   using   something,   and   then   I   went   and   asked   him   after,   and   he   was   like,   No,   I   just   a   bunch   of   images,   this   is   very   you   know,   very   painful.   And   I&#39;m   like,   why   we   got   all   these   beautiful   presentations   and   we   haven&#39;t   figured   out   how   to   make   it   uh   easy   for   slide   deck   people.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>6:17</time>
      <p>
          You   know,   I   I   used   reveal,   so   I   usually   use   PowerPoint   for   my   slides.   One   time   for   my   2017   uh   talk   that   was   like   an   intro,   and   uh   it   was   called   C   17   features.   It   was   an   introduction   to   like   you   know   every   C17   features.   For   that   talk,   I   decided   I&#39;m   gonna   I&#39;m   gonna   try   the   new   cool   thing   and   try   using   reveal.js,   which   is   like   a   slide   framework   where   you   write   your   slides   in   like   markdown   and   you   know,   you   put   them   in   a   GitHub   repo   and   they   get   compiled   to   um   you   know   HTML   and   JavaScript.   Um   it&#39;s   what   all   the   cool   kids   use.   And   I   tried   it,   and   the   you   know,   the   main   reason   that   I   wanted   to   use   it   was   testability   of   my   sample   code.   You   know,   I   wanted   to   be   able   to   write   the   code   in   a   way   where   I   could   compile   like   all   my   example   code   locally   and   then   have   that   be   imported   into   the   slides   so   that   I   could   unit   test   all   my   example   code   in   the   slides.   Because   every   talk   that   I&#39;d   give,   some   person   would   afterwards   come   up   to   me   and   say,   aha,   you   had   a   typo   on   this   line,   you   had   a   typo   on   that   line.   I   wanted   to   avoid   that.   And   so   I   did   the   presentation   and   it   was   like   I   I&#39;m   not   saying   it   was   a   bad   experience,   but   it   was   just   like   not   for   me.   Um   because   the   problem   was   that   when   I   needed   when   I   wanted   to   go   and   like   change   where   something   was   on   this   on   the   screen,   um   uh,   you   know,   I   couldn&#39;t   just   go   do   that.   I   needed   to   go   into   the   file   and   like   edit   something   and   like   edit   a   location,   whereas   what   I   wanted   to   do   was   like   visually   move   a   thing.   And   at   that   point   in   my   career,   I   was   like,   you   know,   the   person   who   was   like,   I   just   want   a   Vim   interface   to   everything,   like   I   want   to   do   everything   in   the   command   line,   you   know,   GUIs   are   GUIs   are   for   suckers,   I   don&#39;t   want   to   use   a   GUI   for   anything.   And   that   will   and   like   I,   you   know,   of   course,   like   I&#39;m   gonna   use   Linux   for   everything.   I&#39;m   just   gonna   my   interface   to   the   world   is   a   Linux   command   line   interface.   And   that   was   the   moment   when   I   like   first   came   to   really   appreciate   um   the   power   of   a   good   graphical   interface.   Because   like   for   making   a   slide,   I   wanted   to   be   able   to   like   visually   see   it   and   like   move   it   around   and   then   be   like,   yeah,   that   looks   that   looks   that   looks   pretty   good.   That   looks   pretty   good.   Um   and   like   after   that   I   have   increasingly   I&#39;ve   increasingly   like   spent   more   of   my   time   thinking   about   like,   you   know,   is   this   a   task   that   I   want   the   um   sort   of   the   efficiency   gains   that   I   might   get   from   something   that&#39;s   purely   textual,   or   do   I   want,   you   know,   I   want   a   uh   a   graphical   interface   to   this   thing   because   it&#39;s   uh   um   it&#39;s   something   that   I   really   need   to   visualize   and   like   visually   see?
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>9:02</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   when   I&#39;m   when   I&#39;m   teaching   classes,   you   know,   or   just   developing   a   new   slide   deck,   I   use   uh   Jupyter   Notebook,   which   you   know   is   usually   a   you   know   data   science   thing   and   associated   with   Python,   uh   but   it&#39;s   got   support   uh   through   something   called   Zeus   Kling   to   let   you   put   interpreted   C17   embedded   directly   in   your   notebook   and   it&#39;s   executable   and   and   uh   the   notebook   can   output   to   reveal.js.   And   so   I   can   build   up   my   whole   slide   deck   with   all   of   my   code,   and   all   of   my   code   is   executable,   and   you   can   see   the   results   directly   on   the   slides,   and   I   can   go   change   the   code   and   and   edit   it   and   and   figure   out   the   right   order   to   structure   things   so   that,   you   know,   so   so   as   the   user&#39;s   going   through   the   slides   they   they   see   all   the   pieces   that   that   that   come   together.   Um   but   controlling   the   output   of   it   is   is   painful   enough   that   you   know   it&#39;s   fine   if   I&#39;m   teaching   a   course   and   it&#39;s   just   like   the   equivalent   of   a   of   a   whiteboard.   Uh   but   if   I&#39;m   gonna   do   a   keynote   presentation   or   something,   then   that&#39;s   my   draft,   and   then   I&#39;ll   sit   down   and   keynote   and   and   make   it   pretty.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>10:14</time>
      <p>
          I   I   do   want   to   take   this   opportunity   to   plug   a   PowerPoint   um   plug-in   that   I   recently   purchased   and   have   used,   which   has   been   transformative,   which   is   it&#39;s   called   PowerPoint   uh   shortcut   tools,   and   it   is   super   awesome.   It   makes   it   like   so   much   quicker   for   me   to   uh   to   build   my   PowerPoint   decks   because   it&#39;s   got   a   whole   bunch   of   uh   of   very   useful   keybindings   and   macros.   That&#39;s   cool.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>10:40</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   got   uh   collection   of   scripts   for   for   Keynote   that   uh   that   I&#39;ve   written   over   the   years   that   probably   do   some   of   the   equivalent   things.   It&#39;s   like   you   hit   one   button   and   that&#39;s   awesome.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>10:53</time>
      <p>
          You   would   I   thought   about   learning   how   to   I   I   learned   once   because   Excel   macros   are   a   big   thing,   and   I   I   got   into   that   when   I   was   uh   younger.   And   then   I&#39;d   heard   about   access,   that&#39;s   Microsoft   Access,   like   the   database,   not   any   other   word   that   you   might   have   confused   what   I   just   said   with.   It&#39;s   a   terrible   name.   There&#39;s   access   uh   VVA   like   macro   programming.   But   I   looked   into   to   see   like   I   think   the   most   useful   at   this   point   in   my   life   would   be   like   a   PowerPoint   um   like   little   scripting   language.   Uh   but   when   I   looked   into   that,   I   just   found   a   YouTube   video   of   someone   building   like   a   Turing   machine   and   PowerPoint   and   doing   some   crazy   things,   which   which   I   can   link   that   in   the   show   notes.   If   anyone&#39;s   ever   wondering,   because   this   is   probably   the   number   one   question   I   get   asked,   is   how   do   I   do   my   little   code   animations?   It&#39;s   uh   a   transition   called   Morph.   I   think   Keynote   has   the   same   thing   called   magic   or   something   like   that.   And   yeah,   you   just   you   have   to   change   the   mode   to   words   instead   of   objects,   and   then   it   figures   everything   out.   It&#39;s   an   amazing   algorithm,   and   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   very   sad   that   I   tried   to   mimic   that   stuff   uh   in   pre-Microsoft   PowerPoint   2019   because   it   was   just   so   much   work.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:54</time>
      <p>
          But   no,   I   I   got   one   more   thought   on   this,   but   then   I   got   one   more   thought   on   this,   and   then   I   got   a   good   transition.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>12:00</time>
      <p>
          Um   Do   you   know   what   we&#39;re   transitioning   to   though?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>12:03</time>
      <p>
          No,   I   know   what   I&#39;m   transitioning   to.   I&#39;m   one   of   the   reason   that   I   I   invested   in   in   uh   the   reason   I   bought   a   copy   of   shortcut   tools   was   uh   for   copy   object   position,   which   is   a   really   useful   uh   you   know   key   binding   to   have.   Like,   hey,   this   thing&#39;s   at   this   position   on   this   slide,   on   this   other   slide,   I   want   this   thing   at   the   same   pos   I   want   a   different   object   at   the   same   position.   And   then   of   course,   like   uh   key   bindings   to   align   various   different   things.   I   I   drive   my   colleagues   crazy   because   I&#39;ll   look   at   their   slide   decks   and   I&#39;ll   be   like,   that&#39;s   not   aligned,   that&#39;s   not   aligned.   Like,   you   send   me   your   PowerPoint,   I&#39;m   gonna   go   through   and   align   all   your   things   for   you.   Um   but   but   speaking   spe   here&#39;s   the   transition.   Wait   for   it,   it&#39;s   a   really   good   one.   Speaking   of   user   transitions,   I   I   don&#39;t   work   on   uh   uh   graphic   user   interfaces   and   like   really   I   I   solely   work   on   like   libraries   in   the   back   end.   I   don&#39;t   really   work   in   anything   that   has   like   uh   quote   civilian   users.   Um   and   so   I   never   really   thought   much   about   user   interface   uh   you   know   or   graphical   interface   uh   until   I   saw   one   of   Sean   Perrin&#39;s   more   recent   talks,   which   I   think   was   at   CPPCon   in   2018   or   2019   on   uh   on   user   interfaces.   It   was   it   was   one   of   the   better   code   um   talks.   And   uh   it,   you   know,   for   somebody   who   it   for   somebody   who   did   doesn&#39;t   think   about   you   know   user   interface,   it   made   me   care   about   user   interface.   I   really   loved   that   talk.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>13:39</time>
      <p>
          Well,   thank   you.   So   I&#39;m   trying   to   think   of   uh   because   I&#39;ve   done   a   couple   of   talks   that   include   user   interface   bits.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>13:46</time>
      <p>
          It   was   the   it   was   the   one   where   you   had   the   slides   about   um   uh   the   user   interface   of   a   bathroom   in   a   hotel   in   Germany   that   you   stayed   at   for   meeting   C.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>13:59</time>
      <p>
          Yes,   yes,   okay.   Now   that&#39;s   uh   uh   is   I   think   that&#39;s   my   relationships   talk.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:05</time>
      <p>
          So   Right,   the   relationships   talk.   Yes,   yes,   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   what   it   was,   yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah,   it   it   was   really   interesting   to   see   how   you   know   to   see   how   you   think   about   that.   Um   because   it   just   never   it   wasn&#39;t   it&#39;s   a   field   that   I&#39;ve   never   even   thought   about   before.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>14:19</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   right,   yeah,   and   it&#39;s   there&#39;s   a   section   in   it   which   is   you   know   near   the   the   the   bathroom   section,   uh   uh   uh   which   is   going   through   the   possible   user   interfaces   for   just   an   implies   relationship   between   two   Booleans,   you   know,   A   implies   B   and   all   the   different   ways   that   that   could   be   represented   and   all   the   trade-offs   and   making   that   representation   and   and   all   the   ways   to   get   it   wrong.   And   and   I   send   that   little   snippet   out   frequently   when   I&#39;m   working   with   designers   because   you   know   it&#39;s   this   problem   area   where   every   time   uh   uh   a   UI   designer   hits   an   implies   relationship   and   they&#39;re   quite   common   in   user   interfaces,   they   they   basically   start   from   a   blank   sheet.   And   they&#39;re   like   they&#39;re   like,   you   know,   okay,   so   so   you   know,   I&#39;ve   got   this   relationship   where   if   I   click   on   this   and   that   needs   to   be   true.   And   and   they&#39;ll   start   with,   you   know,   okay,   so   so   how   should   I   represent   that   and   what   are   the   behaviors   involved?   And   I   have   these   frequent   arguments   where   I   think,   you   know,   uh   the   UI   industry   as   an   industry   should   really   work   on   rule   sets   on   like,   okay,   if   we   have   an   implies   relationship   under   these   circumstances   we&#39;re   going   to   build   it   this   way.   Under   a   different   set   of   circumstances,   maybe   we&#39;ll   take   a   different   approach.   Uh   but   build   up   what   the   rule   set   is   and   and   document   it   well   and   establish   standards   for   things   like   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>15:48</time>
      <p>
          At   Adobe,   do   you   have   is   there   like   a   set   of   design   principles   um   for   something   like   Photoshop   for   the   for   the   UI   for   for   things   like   that?
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>15:58</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   we   have   we   have   a   design   team   and   a   set   set   of   design   principles   that   that   that   go   around   that   and   you   know   it   uh   team   of   designers   that   are   trying   to   bring   all   of   the   Adobe   applications   to   be   more   consistent,   which   is   always   a   problem   because   Adobe   grows   largely   through   acquisition.   So   you   know,   as   soon   as   you   think   you&#39;re   there,   you&#39;ve   kind   of   sucked   in   and   a   couple   more   products   and   you&#39;ve   got   got   got   got   things   to   uh   to   normalize.   So   we   do   have   a   team   that   works   on   that.   You   know,   my   my   criticism   of   the   team   would   be   that   they   tend   to   be   a   little   myopic,   which   is   they   tend   to   build   the   rules   around   individual   features   as   opposed   to   building   you   know   what   we   would   call   generic   rules. Uh-huh. Right.   Right,   right,   what   things   have   that   shape   and   and   build   the   rules   around   things   that   have   that   shape.   So   when   you   encounter   a   new   problem,   you   f   you   n   can   figure   out,   well,   what   are   the   attributes   of   this   problem   and   what   rules   would   apply   to   this   and   and   come   up   with   a   uh   with   a   good   design   without   invoking   a   designer   and   having   them   draw   a   bunch   of   pictures.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:03</time>
      <p>
          That   that   uh   reminds   me   of   a   conversation   that   I   had   with   uh   that   I   either   had   with   Tony   or   it   was   on   the   podcast   with   Tony   at   C   ⁇   Now   where   Tony   was   talking   about   he&#39;s   he   maintains   this   set   of   design   principles   at   his   company.   And   whenever   he   does   a   code   review,   if   he   sees   something   that   he   doesn&#39;t   like   and   there&#39;s   not   a   design   rule   that   covers   it,   he   goes   and   thinks   up   and   writes   a   design   rule   for   it   and   puts   it   into   the   guidelines.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>17:29</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   Yeah.   Years   ago   I   wrote   uh   a   layout   engine.   It&#39;s   open   sourced,   it&#39;s   known   as   Eve.   It&#39;s   part   of   Adobe   Source   Libraries,   and   it&#39;s   uh   a   layout   engine   for   UI.   And   it   gets   used   heavily   at   Adobe.   Um   in   fact,   almost   all   of   Photoshop   is   laid   out   with   Eve.   And   the   Eve   has   its   own   kind   of   uh   baked-in   rule   sets   and   uh   for   doing   layout.   And   the   rule   sets   came   about   because   at   the   time   I   was   working   with   the   Photoshop   designer   and   I   would   you   know,   this   was   years   and   years   and   years   ago,   so   I   would   literally   do   this   on   paper.   I   would   print   out   different   variants   of   a   UI   and   go   to   her   and   ask   her   which   one   she   liked   better,   and   she&#39;d   point   at   one   and   go,   you   know,   this   is   this   is   the   best   one,   and   then   I&#39;d   be   like,   Why?   Why   do   you   say   that?   And   you   know,   you   you   the   conversation   would   always   start   with,   well,   because   it   looks   better,   and   it&#39;s   like   not   good   enough.   Right?   Right.   And   eventually   you   would   uncover,   you   know,   she   had   a   very   strong   design   sense   and   she   had   internalized   a   bunch   of   design   rules,   and   and   so   you   would   just   have   to   uh   you   know,   I   would   have   to   pull   those   out   of   her.   It&#39;s   like,   well,   it   looks   better   because   this   over   here   is   aligning   with   that   over   there,   right?   And   uh   so   then   I   would   go   and   print   a   whole   bunch   of   of   things   where   things   aligned   in   that   way,   and   she   would   go   through   and   mark   them   up   and   be   like,   Yeah,   but   this   one   this   one&#39;s   wrong.   And   I&#39;d   be   like,   Okay,   why   is   that   one   wrong?   Well,   because   in   this   case,   you   know,   this   should   really   be   aligning   with   this   other   thing   because   that&#39;s   a   stronger,   a   stronger   visual   aspect.   And   so   so   it   was,   you   know,   months   of   kind   of   working   with   her   to   dig   out   her   her   design   sense   and   encapsulate   it   into   a   set   of   rules   and   and   build   that   into   the   code.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>19:27</time>
      <p>
          But   I   think   it&#39;s   interesting   that   you   said   like   alignment   there   like   three   or   four   times,   because   a   lot   of   time   people   ask,   like,   oh,   you   know,   what   should   I   do   to   improve   slide   decks   and   stuff?   And   like   it   really   is   just   a   set   of   like   three   or   four   simple   rules,   and   like   two   of   the   main   things,   which   I   think   Bryce,   you   mentioned   came   in   your   plug-in   set,   are   like   the   alignment,   you   know,   top,   bottom,   left,   right,   and   then   also   like   the   vertical   and   horizontal   spacing.   Like   small   things   like   that,   if   you   have   I   think   we&#39;ve   even   talked   about   this   the   last   time   you   were   on,   where   you   have   like   you   know,   five   bullet   points,   and   one   of   the   bullet   points   is   got   like   an   extra   half-line   spacing   in   it   than   the   other   ones.   Like   that&#39;s   not   symmetric.   I   think   our   eyes   are   drawn   to   like   symmetry   because   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   pattern   recognition,   it&#39;s   easier   for   our   brains   to   oh,   this   is   all   sort   of   in   the   same   thing.   When   something   is   off,   uh   at   least   for   me,   it   it   doesn&#39;t   look   as   nice.   And   and   a   lot   of   the   times   it&#39;s   just   like   lining   things   up   nicely,   um,   which   is   a   small   thing,   but   it   can   make   a   big   difference.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>20:23</time>
      <p>
          Well,   and   also   how   you   use   how   you   use   space.   You   know,   like   like   i   if   if   there&#39;s   a   dead   space   on   your   slide,   you   know,   if   you&#39;re   if   like   you&#39;re   using   all   of   your   your   vertical   space,   but   you&#39;ve   got   like   huge   amounts   of   like   dead   space   like   horizontally,   just   like   big   blank   regions,   like   oh,   that   just   it   just   pains   my   heart,   it   pains   my   soul.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>20:41</time>
      <p>
          And   you   know,   alignment&#39;s   a   difficult   thing   too,   because   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   w   what   are   the   strong   edges   that   your   eyes   attracted   to,   and   kind   of   understanding   that.   And   in   the   case   of   text,   you   really   want   the   baselines   of   your   text   to   align.   And   when   building   UIs,   that   can   get   very   complicated   because   you&#39;ve   got,   you   know,   a   button   next   to   a   pop-up   or   something,   and   those   things   have   different   heights.   And   and   as   a   developer   frequently   using   uh   an   OS   toolkit,   you   don&#39;t   have   control   over   where   the   OS   is   putting   the   text   within   those   those   rectangles,   uh,   but   you   really   want   to   align   the   baselines   between   those   those   two   rectangles.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:19</time>
      <p>
          Well,   and   you   have   to   think   about   how   it&#39;s   gonna   align   when   it&#39;s   localized,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>21:23</time>
      <p>
          Yes.   Yes.   And   and   different   languages   have   different   rules,   so   things   like   you   know,   Korean   is   you   know   centered   aligned   as   opposed   to   baseline   aligned.   So   yeah,   things   like   that   are   challenging   when   you&#39;re   worried   worried   about   building   UI.   Eve   does   some   pretty   nutty   things   to   kind   of   make   some   of   that   stuff   correct,   and   it   handles   bizarre   cases   like   uh   you   know,   mix   of   left   to   right   and   right   to   right   and   right   to   left   languages   within   the   same   UI,   and   handling   alignment   across   those   two   cases,   which   it   turns   out   you   know   in   some   parts   of   the   world   is   fairly   common.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:54</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   one   one   thing   that   I   probably   spend   more   time   thinking   about   than   I   should   is   if   I&#39;m   making   a   space.   spreadsheet,   um,   how   am   I   gonna   align   the   columns?   Because   if   if   it&#39;s   something   like   uh   uh   you   know   I   think   I   think   the   left   align   for   you   know   the   rows   of   a   table   is   probably   like   the   most   natural   thing   to   me   um   just   stylistically   um   I   sort   of   I   sort   of   think   it&#39;s   similar   to   what   like   Sean   said   like   I   don&#39;t   necessarily   have   a   good   like   reason   for   it   but   it&#39;s   um   it&#39;s   just   sort   of   like   a   you   know   a   gut   you   know   a   gut   thing   um   it&#39;s   sort   of   like   natural   language   like   you   might   know   that   something   you   might   know   that   some   that   that   a   way   of   phrasing   something   in   English   is   like   not   grammatically   correct   but   you   can&#39;t   name   the   particular   rule   for   it.   But   um   but   if   you   left   align   numbers   like   currency   um   then   it&#39;s   not   uh   uh   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   harder   to   see   the   difference   in   magnitude   between   two   different   rows.   Um   and   this   is   I   think   why   uh   Excel   defaults   to   left   alignment   for   text   but   then   right   alignment   for   numbers.   But   then   like   if   you   if   you   have   some   of   your   columns   that   are   right   aligned   um   because   they&#39;re   numbers   and   then   others   are   text   and   they&#39;re   left   aligned   like   should   you   right   align   all   of   them?   What   about   the   t   what   about   the   headers?   Should   those   be   centered?   Should   those   be   uh   you   know   left   aligned   or   right   aligned?   It&#39;s   like   I   I   spend   more   time   thinking   about   these   things   than   I   probably   should.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>23:18</time>
      <p>
          For   numbers   that&#39;s   a   case   where   we   borrowed   numbers   from   Arabic.   So   they&#39;re   Arabic   numerals   and   hence   they&#39;re   right   to   left.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>23:25</time>
      <p>
          Yeah   Excel   was   Excel   I   think   they   have   an   a   format   for   currency   where   it   aligns   the   currency   symbol   and   then   right   aligns   the   two   decimal   places   and   the   decimal   and   then   the   number.   And   so   like   it   figures   out   like   the   maximum   width   of   the   integral   part   of   your   money   amount.   And   like   that&#39;s   my   favorite   because   that   to   me   has   the   most   symmetry.   Like   all   the   decimals   are   lined   up   all   the   money   symbols   so   dollar   sign   or   pound   sign   are   all   lined   up   and   then   uh   the   only   thing   that&#39;s   off   is   like   when   you   have   a   you   know   $10   amount   versus   a   hundred   dollar   amount   like   you&#39;re   gonna   have   some   empty   space   there.   But   like   for   me   that&#39;s   you   can   even   like   just   sort   of   blur   squint   your   eyes   and   blur   them   and   like   you   can   see   what   the   largest   roughly   what   the   largest   amount   is   just   by   seeing   which   one   is   kicked   out   furthest   to   the   left   from   the   right.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>24:10</time>
      <p>
          This   isn&#39;t   even   like   a   GUI   problem   you   know   as   as   anybody   who&#39;s   ever   tried   to   deal   with   uh   padding   um   in   uh   with   printf   knows   this   is   like   not   an   easy   not   an   easy   thing   to   to   to   clearly   express.   It&#39;s   one   of   the   reasons   why   I&#39;m   so   excited   about   std   format   um   being   in   the   C   standard   library   because   uh   it&#39;s   just   such   a   better   solution   than   the   prior   ones   for   doing   something   like   I   want   I   want   this   to   be   like   padded   in   a   certain   way   so   that   these   things   line   up   when   I   print   them   out   in   a   for   loop.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>24:46</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yeah.   I   like   I   like   std   format.   It&#39;s   still   one   of   the   the   things   we   had   in   in   in   ASL   was   uh   a   library   for   for   structured   serialization   and   and   that&#39;s   one   of   the   things   that   I   think   the   is   still   missing   from   C   and   you   know   I&#39;d   at   some   point   I&#39;d   love   to   continue   that   work.   But   the   idea   with   structured   serialization   is   is   you   format   things   based   off   the   the   shape   of   the   object   and   so   you   have   you   know   is   this   thing   a   dictionary   is   it   an   array   is   it   is   it   just   an   an   atom   type   right   like   just   a   number   or   just   a   string.   And   then   the   once   you   have   the   structural   information   about   what   it   is   is   that   you&#39;re   printing   and   that&#39;s   all   you   need   to   describe   to   print   something,   then   you   can   have   a   bunch   of   different   backend   formatters.   So   you   can   say   well   output   this   structure   as   XML   output   it   as   JSON   output   it   as   as   uh   you   know   PDF   has   its   own   serialization   format   output   it   as   PDF   and   so   inside   of   the   the   the   ASL   we   have   this   this   concept   of   of   uh   uh   structured   serialization   and   so   to   to   use   it   you   just   have   to   basically   describe   the   shape   of   your   objects   and   then   you   can   output   them   into   any   one   of   these   formats.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>26:04</time>
      <p>
          I   I   actually   do   think   that   this   is   something   that   um   the   C   ⁇   standard   library   will   will   do   eventually   and   I   think   it&#39;s   probably   a   good   idea   and   um   I   think   a   design   similar   to   what   you   just   described   will   make   a   lot   of   sense   too   because   what   while   I&#39;m   not   while   I&#39;m   not   a   huge   fan   of   the   idea   of   putting   say   a   JSON   or   an   XML   library   into   standard   C   ⁇   having   some   way   of   of   taking   a   representation   of   a   C   ⁇   object   and   getting   out   JSON   or   XML   would   be   really   nice.   And   uh   you   know   especially   as   we   get   uh   once   we   get   reflection   in   the   language   um   we&#39;ll   be   able   to   really   build   a   an   excellent   uh   uh   serialization   facilities   too   um   uh   and   so   I   think   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   something   you   know   I   I   in   my   CNO   keynote   I   I   highlighted   four   priorities   for   the   standard   library.   It   was   asynchrony   and   parallelism,   I.O,   text   processing   and   metaprogramming   reflection.   And   uh   I   mean   that   serialization   really   hits   those   the   the   I.O   and   the   metaprogramming   reflection   and   I   think   it&#39;s   going   to   be   important   in   the   future.
      </p>

        <cite>Sean Parent</cite>
      <time>27:13</time>
      <p>
          And   I   you   know   I   I   hope   the   standards   committee   takes   an   approach   of   of   being   agnostic   about   the   format   of   serialization   and   focusing   on   the   structural   aspects   because   you   know   if   you   look   at   say   Objective   C   has   has   serialization   but   it&#39;s   in   you   know   Apple&#39;s   own   format,   proprietary   format   and   so   the   the   the   ones   you   move   to   say   well   I   want   to   be   able   to   serialize   in   JSON   or   XML   now   you&#39;re   on   your   own.   And   so   it   would   be   nice   if   you   you   know   if   C   went   the   route   of   kind   of   being   agnostic   and   being   like   no   no   no   we&#39;re   we&#39;re   gonna   have   an   API   that   lets   you   you   plug   in   the   actual   formatter   and   we&#39;re   just   gonna   have   a   standard   way   to   describe   the   structural   information.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>28:00</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   And   that   that&#39;s   a   very   C   way   to   do   things.   Like   I   I   like   to   say   that   the   the   the   thing   that   makes   C   is   this   idea   of   universality   that   C   doesn&#39;t   have   one   programming   paradigm   and   there&#39;s   not   one   compiler   or   implementation.   There&#39;s   not   just   one   domain   that   you   can   use   it   for   C   supports   this   really   wide   ecosystem   and   so   for   for   any   given   thing   in   C   there   usually   is   no   one   right   answer.   The   right   answer   is   to   support   whatever   the   right   whatever   the   right   solution   is   for   each   individual   domain.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>28:34</time>
      <p>
          Thanks   for   listening   tune   in   next   week   for   an   epic   part   two.   Have   a   great   day
      </p>