

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          I   just   want   to   clarify   for   our   audience.   Why?   Why?   I   think   we   can   just   leave   that   where   it   is.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>0:08</time>
      <p>
          He&#39;s   not   in   the   closet   right   now.   Referring   to   the   closet   that   he   then   he   records   in.   But   you&#39;re   not   actually   helping   me.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:15</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   Welcome   to   ADSP   the   Podcast,   episode   30,   recorded   on   June   5th,   2021.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   continue   our   interview   with   Chandler   Carew   and   Patricia   Oz,   which   we   started   in   episode   29.   Chandler   finishes   telling   us   about   his   path   to   Google,   and   then   we   dive   into   topics   including   interviewing,   leadership,   and   so   much   more.   If   you   haven&#39;t   listened   to   episode   29   already,   I   highly   recommend   you   pause   this,   listen   to   episode   29   first,   and   come   back.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>0:53</time>
      <p>
          And   then   I   get   the   the   two   other   job   interviews   that   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   ever   really   had.   And   it   was   Wednesday   interviewed   at   Google   and   Thursday   interviewed   at   uh   Apple.   And   I   failed   both   interviews.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>1:07</time>
      <p>
          Wait,   what   also   what   was   the   second   one?   The   first   one   was   the   uh   you   didn&#39;t   get   your   own   job.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>1:13</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   the   second   one   was   uh   uh   I   interviewed   for   uh   a   startup   in   uh   uh   out   that   was   spun   out   of   the   university   uh   that   I   did   internships   with.   I   interviewed   with   them   um   uh   but   it   wasn&#39;t   much   of   an   interview   because   I&#39;d   actually   done   an   internship   with   them,   and   and   so   like   they   actually   they   actually   were   going   to   offer   to   hire   me.   Um   but   I   didn&#39;t   really   want   to   work   in   North   Carolina   for   the   rest   of   my   life,   and   so   I   I   wasn&#39;t   super   motivated   to   to   take   that   particular   offer.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>1:43</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   so   wait   a   second.   So   you   you   interviewed   at   Google   and   Apple,   and   you   were   rejected   by   both.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>1:50</time>
      <p>
          I   wasn&#39;t   rejected.   I   just   bombed   the   interviews.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>1:54</time>
      <p>
          Oh.   I   I   I   you   know   what?   You   you   are   like,   I   don&#39;t   know,   you&#39;re   like   dipped   in   luck   or   something.   I   I   don&#39;t   know   what   with   your   appointment.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>2:04</time>
      <p>
          Um   well   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   funny   because   but   both   both   Chandler   and   I   got   our   like   first   tech   job   through   somebody,   through   DMing   somebody   on   IRC.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>2:16</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   I   couldn&#39;t   have   been   more   lucky.   Um   so   so   I   do   my   interviews,   and   and   the   interviews   are   interesting   here.   So   so   at   the   Google   interviews,   I   got   uh   a   really   good   interview   um   uh   that   I   I   didn&#39;t   do   very   well   on,   but   I   also   didn&#39;t   crater.   And   it   was   actually   a   very   good   interview   question.   I   I   I   ask   it   myself   now,   so   I&#39;m   not   gonna   I&#39;m   not   gonna   I&#39;m   not   gonna   go   into   that   one   too   much.   But   it   was   it   actually   made   me   think   about   kind   of   challenging   technical   problems   and   explaining   concepts   in   a   useful   way.   Uh   it   all   it   thus   thereby   demonstrated   how   little   professional   software   development   experience   I   had.   Zero.   Um   so   but   it   but   it   also   demonstrated   that   I   could   think   critically   and   such.   That   was   probably   my   strongest   performance.   Uh   there   was   another   one   that   was   a   terrible   interview   question   uh   that   was   basically   a   brain   teaser   about   how   floating   point   works.   Um   and   I   did   really   well   on   that   one   because   I   happened   to   have   struggled   with   floating   point   because   I   happened   to   have   worked   on   LLVM.   Um   but   like   it&#39;s   a   terrible   interview   question   that   like   that   didn&#39;t   uh   it   shouldn&#39;t   have   been   a   significant   factor.   Um   the   other   interview   question   that   I   remember   um   that   I&#39;ve   talked   about   publicly   as   just   like   one   of   my   least   favorite   interview   questions   was   like   is   the   last   interview   of   the   day   at   Google.   Um   and   I   you   have   to   understand,   like   this   interview   process   was   horrible   for   me.   So   I   had   one   outfit   that   was   like   interview   level   professional,   uh,   because   I   was   a   graduate   student   paying   for   things   from   credit   cards,   right?   And   uh   that   outfit,   of   course,   wasn&#39;t   what   I   was   going   to   wear   at   Apple,   because   at   Apple   it   matters   what   you   look   like   when   you   interview   at   Apple.   Um   and   so   for   my   Google   interview,   I   showed   up   in   jeans   and   my   thesis   hoodie.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>3:53</time>
      <p>
          Isn&#39;t   isn&#39;t   that   like   what   they   expect   now?
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>3:55</time>
      <p>
          Like   What   is   a   thesis   hoodie?   Well,   like   like   the   the   hoodie   I&#39;d   been   wearing   hadn&#39;t   had   a   chance   to   launder   like   the   call   of   the   thesis.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>4:04</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   what   I   thought.   That&#39;s   what   I   thought.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>4:06</time>
      <p>
          By   thesis,   I   thought   you   meant   you   got   like   a   no   no   I   defended   my   thesis.   No.   No,   no,   no.   I   misunderstood.   No,   no,   no.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>4:16</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;m   sitting   kind   of   kind   of   punch   junk   from   having   defended   a   thesis   on   Monday,   printed   it,   submitted   it   on   Tuesday,   got   on   a   plane,   flown   across   the   country,   slept   after   flying   across   the   country   for   one   night,   got   up   and   like   arrived   at   Google&#39;s   campus   at   9   a.m.,   and   I&#39;m   sitting   in   a   lobby   surrounded   by   people   in   suits   with   portfolios,   like   looking   sharp,   like   for   an   interview   in   my   jeans   and   my   thesis,   like,   hmm,   hoodie.   Hmm.   It   was   it   was   something   else.   The   last   interviewer   shows   up,   and   he   asks   anything   that   like   shows   up,   and   he&#39;s   like,   uh,   I   want   you   to   implement   Wget.   Like   the   tool,   Wget,   just   implement   it   on   the   whiteboard.   Go.   Go.   I   looked   at   just   like   I   was   like,   I   was   like,   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   never   done   networking   pro   network   programming   in   my   life.   Like,   I   literally   have   not   written   socket   open   parin   once.   I   didn&#39;t   like   it   just   it   just   never   came   up.   It   was   not   a   particular   focus   of   mine   in   school.   I   just   like   all   the   code   I&#39;d   written   was   all   around   compilers   and   video   game   graphics   and   not   around   like   networking.   And   he   looks   at   me   and   is   like,   I   mean   okay,   but   like   fine,   fine.   Just   walk   me   through   how   this   works   like   like   you   can   use   pseudocode,   that&#39;s   fine.   I   don&#39;t   care   if   you   know   any   network,   like,   but   like   walk   me   through   like   what   you   would   need   to   implement   Wget.   Like,   you   know,   send   an   HTTP   request   and   get   a   response.   I   looked   him   like   I   do   not   know   anything   about   the   like   HTTP.   I   don&#39;t   know   the   protocol.   I   have   no   idea   what&#39;s   needed   here.   I   don&#39;t   know   how   he   blinks   at   me   and   he&#39;s   like,   you   don&#39;t   know   where   you&#39;re   interviewing,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>6:02</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   I   was   that   was   that   was   basically   what   I   was   thinking.   He&#39;s   like,   this   is   Google.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>6:09</time>
      <p>
          And   this   And   I   was   like,   yes,   but   I&#39;ve   worked   on   like   compilers   and   programming   languages   that   says   so   on   my   resume.   Like   you   shouldn&#39;t   be   surprised   by   this.   I   didn&#39;t   actually   like   claim   anything   else   on   my   resume.   Um   and   and   so   he   kind   of   like   uh   and   so   like   he&#39;s   like,   okay,   well   diagram   what   you   know.   And   I   basically   like   said,   like,   we&#39;re   gonna   send   a   request   to   the   server,   and   the   server&#39;s   gonna   send   a   response.   And   he&#39;s   like,   So   let&#39;s   talk   about   your   favorite   programming   language.   By   the   way,   folks,   that&#39;s   code   for   the   interview&#39;s   over,   and   I&#39;m   gonna   fill   the   remaining   45   minutes.   Um   dear.   Yeah,   my   interview   didn&#39;t   go   well.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>6:49</time>
      <p>
          Would   you   have   hired   you?
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>6:53</time>
      <p>
          Probably   not.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>6:54</time>
      <p>
          Good   question.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>6:55</time>
      <p>
          Um,   honestly,   probably   not.   Uh   so   I   can   I   can   tell   you   why   I   got   hired.   Um,   it   was   because   of   my   open   source   work.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>7:04</time>
      <p>
          And   so   I   was   about   to   I   was   about   to   say   that   that   I   that   I&#39;m   almost   certain   that   the   reason   that   they   hired   Chandler   and   the   reason   that   they   went   out   of   their   way   to   set   up   an   interview   with   him   had   nothing   to   do   with   um   how   he   did   in   the   interview.   Um   like   I   I   I   I   think   I   may   have   told   this   story   in   the   past,   and   uh   if   not,   I   I   apologize   in   advance   to   my   team   member   who   I&#39;m   about   to   embarrass,   but   not   by   name.   But   I   had   somebody   who   approached   me   at   CPPCon   um   uh   a   few   years   ago   and   said,   Hey,   I   think   I   want   to   come   work   at   your   team.   And   uh   I   told   her,   send   me   your   re   your   resume.   Um   and   uh   she   did.   And   I   like   this   isn&#39;t   somebody   that   I&#39;d   known   previously.   We&#39;d   we&#39;d   met   at   the   conference   that   year.   I   talked   a   little   bit,   thought   she   was   impressive.   She   sent   me   her   resume,   and   I   like   looked   at   her   resume   in   her   GitHub   for   about   five   minutes,   and   I   was   like,   Yeah,   like   I   I   I   I   I   have   all   the   information   that   I   need   now.   Like,   and   like   I   like   there   will   be   interviews   that   will   happen,   but   like   I   am   deciding   here   at   this   spot,   five   minutes   after   looking   at   this   person&#39;s   resume,   that   I   am   gonna   hire   this   person.   And   we   did   hire,   and   it   was   worked   out   wonderfully.   And   you   know,   for   for   sometimes   you   just   know   it&#39;s   somebody   that   has,   you   know,   a   prolific   open   source   background,   and   it&#39;s   just   like   you   want   that   person.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>8:26</time>
      <p>
          And   so   uh   because   this   uh   person   who   got   me   to   send   the   resume   in   in   the   first   place   knew   about   my   work   in   LLVM,   and   he   knew   how   the   hiring   process   at   Google   worked,   and   so   he   made   sure   that   in   addition   to   my   interviews,   they   also   were   aware   of   the   open   source   work.   Uh   and   uh   my   understanding   is   that   uh   this   was   still   not   especially   impressive,   and   I&#39;ve   looked   at   my   open   source   work   from   then,   and   it   was   not   especially   impressive.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>8:56</time>
      <p>
          Um   it&#39;s   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:01</time>
      <p>
          No,   no,   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   a   lot   of   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   about   potential   though.   You   know,   like   I   I   I   think   that   this   is   like   one   of   my   skill   sets   is   like   being   able   to   like   recognize   untapped   potential   or   whatnot.   Like   sometimes   it&#39;s   not   about   what   the   person&#39;s   done,   but   it&#39;s   about   what   potential   you   see   in   what   they&#39;ve   done.   Like   maybe   maybe   somebody   hasn&#39;t   done   a   lot,   but   if   they&#39;re   if   they&#39;re   like   very   early   stage   career   and   at   this   point   in   Chandler&#39;s   life,   he   would   have   been   very   early   stage.   And   so   you   you   know   and   honestly,   my   guess   is   because   this   was   somebody   that   you   knew   Chandler   from   IRC,   right?   That   it   was   not   somebody   that   was   like   new   from   IRC.   Is   it   somebody   that   you&#39;d   interacted   with   previously?
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>9:42</time>
      <p>
          Only   on   IRC.   I&#39;ve   never   met   them   face   to   face.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>9:44</time>
      <p>
          But   it   was   probably   less   about   the   open   source   contributions   that   you   made,   and   it   was   probably   more   about   how   you&#39;d   interacted   with   that   person,   the   sort   of   questions   you&#39;d   asked   on   that   IRC   channel   sort   of   discussion.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>9:57</time>
      <p>
          I   I   then   I   have   a   question   because   you   have   like   Connor,   you   you   can   you   can   bow   out   on   this   one,   but   but   both   Bryce   and   Chandler   have   met   me   in   real   life.   You&#39;ve   interacted   with   me   on   various   media,   uh   and   you   know,   and   I&#39;ve   maybe   watched   me   speak.   Um   so   would   that   be   I   I   don&#39;t   know   if   you   have   looked   at   my   GitHub,   but   but   would   that   be   sufficient   for   you   to   say   I   think   maybe   we   should   hire   her?   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>10:27</time>
      <p>
          This   this   doesn&#39;t   compute   in   a   bunch   of   ways   because   uh   you&#39;re   not   you&#39;re   not   like   super   new   in   your   career   and   just   starting   out,   right?   And   so   there   are   a   whole   bunch   of   other   questions   that   I   want   to   know   about.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>10:40</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   and   that   brings   us   to   the   list.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>10:43</time>
      <p>
          And   that   does   that   does   bring   us.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>10:45</time>
      <p>
          So   I   will   I   will   I   will   catch   you   up   on   the   list.   Uh   so   the   so   the   list   is   basically   uh   four   stages   of   your   career.   Uh,   and   and   it&#39;s   a   lot   around   hand   uh   handling   conflict.   Uh   so   so   um   the   junior,   I   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   I   have   named   them,   so   you   you   might   not   agree   with   the   naming   of   them,   but   the   junior   role   is   a   lot   about   uh   uh   uh   conflicts   uh   within   the   team,   so   with   other   other   team   members,   but   but   very   much   at   a   peer   level   uh   and   and   and   failures   uh   uh   in   uh   within   the   team,   with   the   project,   but   something   that   is   very   directly   to   the   person.   Now   I   I&#39;m   interpreting,   so   you   can   you   can   tell   me   if   I&#39;m   uh   yeah.   Um   the   second   one   I   I   I   call   senior,   uh   and   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   more   about   like   building   consensus   uh   as   well   as   as   looking   further   than   the   team,   looking   towards   the   customer   and   towards   other   teams.   And   then   also   again   dealing   with   conflict   uh   here.   And   then   the   the   one   that   I   had   a   hard   time,   uh   so   like   middle   something   uh   role,   and   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   now   in   vision   and   and   and   aligning   teams   and   having   more   of   a   broad   multi-team   kind   of   thing,   uh,   but   still   pretty   hands-on,   you   know,   it   seems   to   me.   Um   and   then   you   know,   you&#39;re   in   the   more   of   the   leadership   kind   of   role,   tech   leadership   kind   of   role,   uh,   which   is   like   the   fourth   one.   And   now   you&#39;re   in   influencing   higher   uh   like   ex   like   the   like   the   XX   and   and   and   also   looking   at   at   strategy,   but   not   only   within   the   company   itself,   but   also   in   the   industry.   And   again,   dealing   with   with   but   but   I   I   I   don&#39;t   there   are   a   little   bit   of   a   conflict   there,   but   there   it   seems   not   so   much   dealing   with   conflict   and   more   like   how   to   to   move   things.   Yeah.   Would   that   would   that   roughly   describe   these?
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>12:59</time>
      <p>
          I   think   the   only   thing   I   want   to   tweak   about   that   is   the   the   leveling   here.   Um   really   the   third   group   is   so   I   think   of   this   as   right   like   uh   junior   or   like   entry   level,   right,   like   like   engineering,   right?   And   then   the   second   one   is   as   you   know,   senior   or   or   kind   of   like   team   lead,   right?   Like   like   you   know,   uh   project   lead,   that   kind   of   thing.   The   third   one   I   think   is   already   really   into   leadership,   and   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   why   that&#39;s   why   it   shifts   a   lot   between   the   second   and   the   third   level   here.   Um   and   the   fourth   one   is   is   um   not   about   kind   of   entering   a   leadership   role,   but   scaling   your   leadership,   right?   Um   and   so   so   kind   of   the   the   scaled   up   aspects   of   leadership   when   you   want   to   kind   of   operate   at   a   even   broader   uh   even   broader   kind   of   scope   and   scale.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>13:47</time>
      <p>
          So   so   one   of   the   things   that   that   a   lot   of   people   think   about   or   wonder   is   how   you   transition   from   one   stage   to   the   next.   Um   and   and   and   so   where   do   you   consider   yourself   to   be   in   these   like   four   stages   today?
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>14:07</time>
      <p>
          Oh   gosh,   I   don&#39;t   know.   Is   it   also   worth   mentioning?   I&#39;m   not   sure.   We   can   ignore   this,   I   can   cut   it   out   even   uh,   but   like   at   most   companies   too,   there   is   like   two   different   tracks   that   I   think   there&#39;s   like   the   management   track   and   the   IC   track,   IC   standing   for   individual   contributor.   Um   like   does   that   is   that   worth   mentioning   here?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>14:24</time>
      <p>
          I   I   think   I   think   it   is,   but   I   think   there&#39;s   also   a   common   misperception   here,   which   is   that   there&#39;s   almost   always   a   third   track.   There&#39;s   almost   at   at   some   companies   the   the   the   management   and   leadership   are   combined,   but   um   uh   that&#39;s   not   always   the   case.   So   I   think   that   you   should   think   separately   about   solely   an   individual   contributor,   leadership,   and   management.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>14:47</time>
      <p>
          I   mean,   I   I   we   can   we   can   imagine   a   bunch   of   stuff.   I   can&#39;t   I   can&#39;t   speak   to   any   other   companies.   I&#39;ve   only   like   like   you   you&#39;ve   heard   the   story   now   of   how   I   got   my   job   at   Google.   That   was   the   first   real   job   I   got,   and   so   I   can&#39;t   really   speak   to   anything   outside   of   Google,   but   on   at   Google   at   least,   there   are   there   are   two   tracks,   right?   You&#39;re   you&#39;re   either   on   kind   of   the   the   the   technical   track   or   the   management   track.   And   uh   they   both   go   up,   and   you   can   you   can   become   a   leader   on   either   track.   Um   and   and   and   so   they   both   have   the   kind   of   growth   potential   here,   but   they   they   do   change   your   focus,   and   there&#39;s   plenty   of   overlap   between   them   two.   They&#39;re   not   they&#39;re   not   like   rigidly   separated   tracks.   They&#39;re   really   about   you   know   what   your   primary   focus   is   as   like   in   in   your   job   and   in   your   career.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>15:33</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   so   you   are   on   a   technical   track,   I   assume.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>15:36</time>
      <p>
          So   I   happened   to   be   on   the   technical   track   um   uh   at   Google,   and   I   I   don&#39;t   know,   I   mean,   I   I   I   struggle   to   be   kind   of   I   don&#39;t   wanna   I   don&#39;t   wanna   be.   Yeah,   Connor,   you   might   have   to   cut   this   out.   I   don&#39;t   know   how   to   say   where   I   am.   Like,   on   one   hand,   I   think   I   don&#39;t   have   a   clue   about   any   of   this   stuff.   On   the   other   hand,   uh   uh   at   this   point   at   Google,   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   pretty   pretty   solidly   in   in   you   know   operating   in   the   fourth   bucket   here.   Uh   I&#39;ve   been   I&#39;ve   been   I&#39;ve   been   very   I   was   very   lucky   to   get   into   Google.   Um   but   one   of   the   one   of   the   consequences   is   that   kind   of   uh   coming   in   at   Google   as   like   the   the   bottom   end   and   just   barely   getting   past   the   interviews   kind   of   uh   shook   my   world   a   bit   and   I   got   kind   of   weirdly   ambitious   all   of   a   sudden.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>16:24</time>
      <p>
          Uh   like   ambitious   like   career-wise   or   ambitious   like   Yes.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:28</time>
      <p>
          Oh,   okay.   But   you   but   you   say   you&#39;re   on   the   technical   track   at   Google,   Chandler,   but   you   do   have   director   ports,   right?
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>16:35</time>
      <p>
          Oh   yeah.   Um   so   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   on   the   technical   track   at   Google,   but   I   actually   manage   a   large   organization   at   this   point.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:40</time>
      <p>
          Yes.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>16:40</time>
      <p>
          Like   I   have   I   have   over   60   people   in   my   organization,   uh   and   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   responsible   for   not   just   managing   people,   but   managing   managers.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>16:48</time>
      <p>
          Yeah. See,   and   it   it&#39;s   a   bit,   I   think   it   really   depends   from   like   company   to   company.   Like   I   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   in   a   you   know   a   leadership   role.   I   don&#39;t   I&#39;m   I   spend   very   little   of   my   time   these   days   at   NVIDIA   writing   code,   um,   but   I   don&#39;t   have   direct   reports.   And   that&#39;s   just   sort   of   the   um   uh   I   had   I   had   opportunities   to   go   into   uh   uh   a   track   where   I   would   have   um   direct   reports,   but   it   I   did   not   think   that   that   would   allow   me   to   rise   as   high.   Um   and   in   NVIDIA   there&#39;s   you   know   that   there&#39;s   a   role   where   you   can   be   a   leader   of   people   without   you   know   being   without   actually   managing   any   people.   So   I   think   it   really   depends   from   company   to   company.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>17:25</time>
      <p>
          So   what   what   what   is   that   role   called?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>17:27</time>
      <p>
          Like   is   that   like   a   principal   engineer   or   what   is   so   at   NVIDIA   usually   that   term   is   associated   with   like   architect,   um   but   also   NVIDIA   is   not   a   company   that   has   a   very   rigid   hierarchy.   Um   so   titles   aren&#39;t   really   that   significant   at   NVIDIA.   It&#39;s   you   really   you   get   to   shape   your   own   role.   Um   so   it   was   really   just   that   you   know   uh   at   some   point   I   decided   that   the   way   for   me   to   get   more   things   done   was   to   uh   spend   less   of   my   time   as   an   individual   contributor,   more   of   my   time   sort   of   as   a   leader   of   people.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>18:01</time>
      <p>
          But   uh   for   for   for   what   it&#39;s   worth,   right,   while   I   have   reports   that&#39;s   not   universal,   it&#39;s   not   even   all   that   common   for   people   on   the   technical   ladder.   Um   and   and   I&#39;m   probably   going   to   be   having   fewer   reports   over   time,   not   more.   Um   but   uh   this   is   kind   of   like   uh   uh   you   know   it&#39;s   come   and   gone.   Uh   the   group   I   was   in   had   a   real   need   for   someone   to   kind   of   step   up   and   do   kind   of   higher-level   organizational   management.   Um   and   so   I   you   know   stepped   into   the   role   because   there   was   a   need   for   that.   Um   but   in   uh   in   some   ways   my   my   goal   has   also   been   to   largely   kind   of   you   know   replace   myself   in   that   role   over   time.   Uh   I&#39;m   hopeful   to   go   back   um   even   more   towards   I&#39;m   about   as   far   towards   the   kind   of   management   and   organizational   leadership   as   I   ever   want   to   get.   I&#39;m   hoping   the   pindle   swings   it   back   a   little   bit   more   towards   technical   uh   things   in   the   future.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>18:51</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   just   it&#39;s   I   think   it&#39;s   worth   mentioning   because   for   those   that   aren&#39;t   that   are   listening   to   this,   that   aren&#39;t   at   what   I   would   call   a   technology   first   company   like   NVIDIA   or   Google   or,   you   know,   there&#39;s   a   lot   of   large   names,   but   there&#39;s   also   a   lot   of   smaller   names   that   are   the   technology   first.   I   first   worked   at   a   uh   financial   company   that   was   not   technology   first.   And   one   of   the   big   draws   to   wanting   to   switch   to   a   technology   first   company   is   the   fact   that   they   have   this   delineation   between   tracks.   And   at   a   lot   of   non-technology   first   companies,   there&#39;s   a   single   track   where   for   the   first   few   levels   you&#39;re   technical,   but   if   you   want   to   progress   past   that   level,   you   have   to   switch   to   management.   And   I,   at   least   at   this   point   in   my   career,   don&#39;t   really   want   to   be   managing   people.   I   want   to   be   solving   hard   technical   problems.   And   at   technology   first   companies   on   the   IC   track,   it   uh   typically   you   don&#39;t   you   don&#39;t   have   to   have   reports   if   you   want   to.   You   can   go   from   your   senior   engineer   to   principal   engineer   and   have   like   a   big   impact   by   solving   the   harder   technical   problems,   by   mentoring,   you   know,   younger   senior   engineers   and   whatnot.   Um,   and   that&#39;s   a   path   that   exists   at   basically   every   single   tech   first   company,   um,   which   like   for   me,   someone   that   wants   to   like   follow   that   path,   at   least   at   this   point   in   my   career,   is   like   awesome.   Where   there&#39;s   a   lot   of   companies   that   um   you   hit   this   sort   of   like   level,   and   then   they&#39;re   like,   well,   if   you   want   to   progress,   you   gotta   start   managing   people.   And   uh   there&#39;s   a   lot   of   I   don&#39;t   want   to   speak   for   everyone,   but   like   at   least   for   for   myself,   I   definitely   know   maybe   maybe   at   some   point   I   might   want   to   manage   folks,   but   definitely   right   now   I   just   I   love   typing   code   too   much.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>20:18</time>
      <p>
          Um   when   I   was   at   Cisco,   they   had   they   had   this   uh   idea   of   a   principal   engineer,   and   it   was   actually   like   something   that   because   we&#39;re   like   we   have   like   a   satellite   office   thing   thing.   Cisco   buys   company,   so   we   had   a   company,   Cisco   bought   it.   Um   so   but   but   so   I   basically   found   like   all   of   the   documentation   for   this   like   principal   engineer   stuff   myself,   and   uh   part   of   that   was   like   um   it   said   uh   basically   to   become   a   principal   engineer   you   kind   of   had   to   have   already   been   doing   the   work.   That   was   like   a   thing.   Uh   and   the   funny   thing   is   that   I   I   was   at   that   time   doing   the   work,   but   but   but   then   I   was   told   when   I   was   like   I   brought   it   up   that   I   want   to   kind   of   go   in   that   direction,   and   they   told   me   no,   this   is   an   honorary   title.   This   is   like   we   give   people   that   they&#39;ve   been   here   for   like   15   years,   then   you   know,   they   get   this   title   because   their   hair   turned   gray   or   something.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>21:14</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   unfortunate.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:18</time>
      <p>
          I   think   anytime   you   see   a   company   that   has   um   uh   a   strong   association   between   seniority   and   rank,   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   usually   a   little   bit   of   a   red   flag.   Um   I   mean   it&#39;s   obviously   I   think   it&#39;s   you   know   it&#39;s   usually   gonna   be   present   to   some   degree   at   some   company,   but   um   that   should   not   be   titles   shouldn&#39;t   be   honorary,   right?   Titles   titles   shouldn&#39;t   be   uh   something   that   you   reserve   for   the   folks   that   have   been   there   for   15   years.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>21:45</time>
      <p>
          Um   so   but   but   but   uh   the   reason   why   I   thought   about   it   was   because   one   of   the   one   of   the   requirements   for   getting   this   was   that   you   couldn&#39;t   have   any   direct   reports.   And   so   they   gave   the   title   to   to   uh   to   someone   while   I   was   there,   and   they   that   that   person   had   to   to   uh   to   lose   their   direct   reports   to   be   able   to   get   the   title.   Interesting.   It&#39;s   just   it   was   weird   to   me.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>22:07</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   weird.   Yeah,   especially   if   it&#39;s   honorary.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>22:14</time>
      <p>
          Earlier   this   year   I   switched   to   sort   of   a   new   role   at   NVIDIA   and   um   I   had   the   I   there   was   an   opportunity   for   me   to   like   consider   switching   over   to   the   management   track,   but   the   the   reason   that   I   didn&#39;t   was   that   um   it   it   sort   of   unintuitively   to   chance   you   know   Connor   was   talking   about   how   some   companies   you   have   to   manage   to   to   rise   up   the   ranks.   Whereas   I   looked   at   if   I   was   going   to   become   a   manager   at   NVIDIA   you   know   what   level   of   manager   would   I   be?   And   I   realized   for   me   to   get   to   the   next   tier   of   manager   and   the   tier   beyond   that,   I   would   have   to   be   managing   more   people   than   I   thought   I   would   be   comfortable   with   managing   in   the   next   five   years   of   my   career.   Whereas   on   the   technical   track,   I   could   be   in   a   role   where   I   was   a   leader   for   very   for   for   the   size   of   people   that   I   was   comfortable   being   a   leader   for,   or   even   more.   And   there   was   plenty   of   room   for   me   to   grow   that   that   there   were   at   least   two   levels   you   know   above   where   I   was   that   I   could   reach   for   in   the   next   five   years   without   going   outside   of   my   comfort   zone.   And   so   that&#39;s   why   I   decided   to   stay   in   the   technical   track.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>23:17</time>
      <p>
          Okay.   So   so   you   you&#39;re   both   speaking   like   both   you   and   Chandler   at   least   are   talking   about   this   idea   of   leadership   but   but   separated   from   management.   So   so   you&#39;re   talking   about   technological   leadership   in   some   way   and   it   seems   to   have   like   that   that   expression   seems   to   have   content   for   you.   So   what   does   that   mean?
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>23:37</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   for   me   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   about   you   know   influencing   uh   and   like   setting   direction   and   this   is   and   this   is   why   you   can   kind   of   see   this   uh   showing   up   in   in   the   kind   of   questions   that   I   was   probing   here   right   like   it&#39;s   about   establishing   a   direction   and   a   strategy   uh   at   and   and   the   scope   at   which   you   do   that   right   the   scope   of   the   problems   that   are   solved   by   it   scope   of   influence   you   have   to   deploy   to   it   to   achieve   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>23:57</time>
      <p>
          What   does   that   mean   though?   That   sounds   like   very   vague   like   give   me   an   example.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>24:02</time>
      <p>
          Sure.   So   you   know   uh   uh   an   example   of   this   would   be   your   your   I&#39;ll   take   one   from   from   my   own   experience   here   right   uh   if   we&#39;re   if   we&#39;re   if   we&#39;re   at   Google   and   we&#39;re   we&#39;re   actually   using   you   know   uh   GCC   and   at   the   time   the   the   compiler   is   not   really   meeting   Google&#39;s   needs   right   um   actually   figuring   realizing   that   the   the   the   needs   that   we   have   are   not   for   just   just   a   better   compiler   but   for   example   for   tools   built   on   top   of   the   compiler   in   order   to   help   our   code   base   scale   and   our   developers   kind   of   deal   with   uh   the   challenges   of   C.   It   became   very   clear   that   we   needed   a   different   platform.   And   so   one   of   the   things   I   had   to   do   was   to   go   around   and   convince   everyone   at   the   company   that   like   no   we&#39;re   going   to   we&#39;re   going   to   directionally   pivot   from   building   on   top   of   GCC   to   building   on   top   of   Clang   and   LLVM   not   because   they&#39;re   better.   At   the   time   they   weren&#39;t   even   they   weren&#39;t   better,   they   were   actually   worse   as   a   compiler.   But   because   they&#39;re   going   to   give   us   the   leverage   we   need.   We&#39;re   going   to   be   able   to   build   the   tools   we   need   to   build   on   top   of   them.   And   so   as   a   direction   we   have   to   kind   of   pivot   the   the   entire   company&#39;s   direction   so   that   we   can   build   those   tools.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>25:11</time>
      <p>
          So   how   do   you   do   that?
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>25:14</time>
      <p>
          Largely   it&#39;s   about   presenting   uh   a   good   argument   with   good   evidence   to   support   it   to   the   right   people   at   the   right   time.   And   so   you   you   have   to   be   able   to   get   into   that   room   I   guess   to   those   people   that   is   one   thing   you   do   have   to   have   access   to   the   people   who   are   who   who   you   need   to   kind   of   convince.   However   at   least   at   Google   that   part   is   is   is   actually   probably   the   easiest   part.   If   you   put   in   enough   effort   you   can   almost   certainly   talk   to   anyone   at   Google   that   you   need   to   in   order   to   try   and   convince   them   of   something.   It&#39;s   very   unlikely   that   you   you   can&#39;t   find   a   person   that   you   talk   to   even   if   there   are   kind   of   you   know   some   some   layers   that   you   have   to   work   through   you   can   at   least   find   the   person   at   the   first   layer   and   if   you   can   convince   them   they&#39;re   going   to   make   sure   you   can   talk   to   the   person   at   the   next   layer   of   the   company.   And   it&#39;s   an   incremental   process   right   this   took   us   uh   uh   this   took   probably   I   would   say   six   to   seven   years   to   really   establish   this   uh   directional   shift   at   Google   um   fully   right   and   there   were   just   a   lot   of   milestones   along   the   way   and   there   was   a   lot   of   you   know   kind   of   pushing   this   directional   strategy   further   and   further   and   further   at   each   set   stage   of   this.   And   and   the   kind   of   the   the   surprising   thing   is   that   even   this   the   thing   I&#39;ve   outlined,   right,   changing   the   the   compiler   from   one   one   technology   stack   to   a   different   technology   stack   because   of   a   different   set   of   use   cases   that   we   have   that&#39;s   actually   that&#39;s   actually   itself   just   an   incremental   step.   That   that   right   like   everything   kind   of   decomposes   into   these   kind   of   incremental   components.   And   so   that&#39;s   actually   an   incremental   step   of   you   know   changing   the   direction   of   the   strategy   for   how   we   write   Code   at   Google.   And   another   component   of   that   was   Google   kind   of   uh   becoming   much   more   heavily   involved   in   the   standardization   process   um   and   right   and   trying   and   trying   to   push   on   the   industry   and   the   standardization   process   in   order   to   shift   C   and   kind   of   bend   C   towards   being   a   better   a   better   tool   for   our   developers.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:18</time>
      <p>
          So   I   I   think   for   me   I   I   think   a   lot   of   people   tend   to   think   of   like   when   we   talk   about   the   distinction   between   leadership   and   management   people   think   that   means   that   oh   the   the   leadership   means   having   the   vision   and   and   like   management   is   dealing   with   the   people   and   I   don&#39;t   I   don&#39;t   think   that&#39;s   actually   the   case.   I   think   leadership   is   about   recognizing   sort   of   where   you   want   where   where   things   need   to   go   and   then   inspiring   people   to   believe   in   that   vision.   So   I   think   it&#39;s   fundamentally   about   people.   It&#39;s   about   there&#39;s   a   big   difference   between   ordering   somebody   to   do   something,   saying   do   this   because   I   told   you   to   and   inspiring   them   to   do   it   because   you&#39;ve   you&#39;ve   convinced   them   that   this   is   an   exciting   thing   or   that   this   is   the   right   direction   to   go   in   or   that   this   is   something   that   they   should   believe   in.   And   I   think   that&#39;s   really   what   leadership   is   about.   You   have   to   understand   um   the   problem   that   you   need   to   be   solving   you   know   the   the   um   the   the   business   that   you&#39;re   in   what   your   users   need   and   then   you   need   to   be   able   to   identify   what   is   the   you   know   the   solution   to   that   problem.   And   then   you   need   to   get   your   people   to   believe   in   the   problem   to   believe   in   your   users   to   believe   in   the   business   and   to   believe   that   the   solution   is   the   right   way   forward.   And   I   think   that   my   experience   may   be   a   bit   colored   by   working   so   much   on   community   driven   projects   and   standards   committees   and   volunteer   organizations   because   when   you&#39;re   in   a   volunteer   organization   you   can&#39;t   just   tell   people   what   to   do.   You   have   to   work   with   you   know   when   people   volunteer   they&#39;re   going   to   volunteer   to   do   what   they   want   and   you   can&#39;t   just   give   them   orders.   And   so   perhaps   my   experience   is   a   bit   colored   by   that   of   of   you   know   of   that   that   the   only   way   that   I   can   get   people   to   do   things   in   a   lot   of   contexts   is   if   I   can   inspire   them   to   do   it   because   I   can&#39;t   just   tell   them   to   do   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>29:25</time>
      <p>
          I   want   to   I   want   to   let   everyone   in   on   a   secret   uh   that&#39;s   always   true.   Um   so   so   a   lot   of   people   think   that   like   open   source   or   standards   committees   or   other   things   are   different   here.   I   don&#39;t   think   they   are   I   think   I   think   this   is   actually   truly   common.   Um   right   so   I   I   you   know   at   Google   we&#39;re   we&#39;re   we&#39;re   we&#39;re   a   big   company   these   days   right   we&#39;re   a   big   company.   So   there   are   plenty   of   teams   and   managers   who   I&#39;ve   seen   basically   like   receive   direction   like   go   build   this   thing   over   here.   If   the   people   on   that   team   don&#39;t   believe   that   this   is   a   good   idea   it   fails   every   single   time   with   like   like   there&#39;s   no   I   have   zero   success   examples   when   a   group   of   people   a   team   didn&#39;t   believe   in   what   they   were   building   but   they   built   a   thing   that   was   successful.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>30:19</time>
      <p>
          Like   I   have   literally   zero   examples   I   I   have   an   example   but   I   have   an   example   for   like   really   sad   reasons.   So   so   because   one   of   the   things   that   I   noticed   when   you   are   talking   about   this   is   that   you   are   never   really   talking   about   uh   getting   people   to   listen   to   you.   Uh   whereas   so   my   entire   career   has   basically   been   every   room   I   walk   into   I   have   to   prove   that   I   am   competent   to   be   in   that   room.   So   that   is   like   my   entire   career   is   is   working   from   like   negative   500   the   moment   I   walk   through   the   door.   And   and   so   so   so   I   so   like   the   shift   that   I   I   managed   to   do   inside   of   Cisco   we   build   these   telepresence   systems   for   for   conferencing   rooms.   I   did   a   massive   amount   of   research   I   did   uh   like   probably   like   20   hours   of   presentations   I   built   prototypes   I   built   an   actual   like   like   a   like   a   like   a   full   product   where   with   with   cameras   and   and   microphone   arrays   and   and   a   touch   screen   and   we   had   web   stuff   on   it   and   it   was   like   I   I   I   had   to   this   I   had   to   really   because   nobody   would   listen   to   me   because   I   was   a   girl   so   so   the   lengths   that   I   had   to   go   to   just   to   get   people   to   listen   and   when   I   went   into   the   room   and   I   said   the   way   that   we&#39;re   doing   things   now   it   won&#39;t   work   and   and   getting   someone   to   actually   listen   to   that   it   was   so   hard   because   nobody   and   and   and   in   the   end   when   they   bought   my   idea   they   they   called   a   meeting   with   20   male   engineers   and   they   didn&#39;t   ask   me   to   come   and   then   I   I   think   you&#39;re   absolutely   right   um   and   I   it&#39;s   you   know   I   think   people   like   Chandler   and   I   um   I   think   we   we   tend   to   be   loud   people   who   who   um   you   know   we   have   strong   opinions   and   we   don&#39;t   we&#39;re   we&#39;re   we   don&#39;t   have   a   problem   sharing   them.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>32:28</time>
      <p>
          And   I   think   because   we&#39;re   you   know   white   guys   in   tech,   that&#39;s   very   acceptable   accepted   right   um   that   you   know   like   if   if   I   I   spend   most   of   my   time   going   into   meetings   and   pitching   people   on   crazy   ideas   that   nobody   believes   in   yet   and   trying   to   convince   them   to   believe   in   that.   And   it&#39;s   easier   for   me   to   do   that   because   I   know   that   it&#39;s   acceptable   for   me   to   do   that   and   that   like   I   feel   confident   doing   that.   But   you   Patricia   as   a   woman   in   tech   um   one   uh   you&#39;re   not   gonna   feel   as   comfortable   doing   that   because   you   know   that   you   know   that   there&#39;s   a   huge   bias   against   you.   And   two,   it&#39;s   so   much   harder   for   people   to   listen.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>33:09</time>
      <p>
          I   would   be   the   one   presenting   and   people   would   shush   me   in   the   meeting   I   had   a   guy   who   was   like   an   executive   saying   in   the   meeting   who   do   you   think   you   are   and   I   was   like   I&#39;m   just   here   answering   a   question   you   asked   me.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>33:29</time>
      <p>
          I   think   I   think   there&#39;s   also   like   it   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   weird   right   because   um   one   of   the   I   mean   one   of   the   things   that&#39;s   kind   of   I   I&#39;ve   been   fairly   lucky   with   is   uh   that   the   the   you   know   certainly   I   I   get   a   get   a   foot   in   the   door   right   by   being   by   looking   like   everyone&#39;s   expected   image   of   of   random   geek   helps.   But   I   think   it&#39;s   important   for   people   to   realize   that   um   that   that   helps   and   it   makes   a   big   difference.   But   I   actually   think   the   goal   and   like   the   challenge   is   is   it&#39;s   structurally   the   same.   It&#39;s   a   difference   it&#39;s   a   it&#39;s   different   than   magnitude   a   big   difference   in   magnitude   but   you   you   still   have   to   convince   people   to   listen   to   you.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>34:12</time>
      <p>
          Well   the   thing   is   that   the   thing   is   in   the   end   the   the   way   the   way   I   won   was   by   proving   my   point.   I   didn&#39;t   win   by   convincing   anyone   like   I   I   could   I   convinced   them   by   by   proving   the   math.   I   I   didn&#39;t   convince   them   because   they   believed   in   me.   They   didn&#39;t   believe   in   me   at   all.   What   I   managed   to   do   was   to   prove   by   implementing   by   it   because   what   I   was   saying   was   not   and   no   matter   how   much   research   and   no   matter   how   much   I   would   present   nobody   would   believe   me.   So   the   only   and   and   this   is   the   reason   why   I   won   and   this   is   also   one   of   the   reasons   why   I   think   women   have   to   be   engineers   because   I   won   because   I   could   make   it   I   would   have   never   won   if   what   I   came   in   there   was   was   some   kind   of   like   crazy   uh   idea   I   I   I   came   in   with   a   product   I   could   demonstrate   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>35:04</time>
      <p>
          And   and   by   what   I&#39;m   trying   to   say   is   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   how   everyone   ends   up   winning.   At   least   in   in   the   meetings   at   Google   like   I   I   have   I   certainly   have   never   been   able   to   just   convince   people.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>35:17</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>35:18</time>
      <p>
          I   I&#39;ve   had   an   easier   time   with   it,   don&#39;t   get   me   wrong   but   like   you   you   you   always   have   to   uh   I   think   come   in   with   the   product.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>35:26</time>
      <p>
          Usually   usually   for   me   the   tide   sort   of   the   tide   tends   to   turn   like   when   it&#39;s   far   too   late.   Like   like   it   like   I   what   like   I   I   typically   try   to   convince   people   of   things   you   know   early   on   um   and   they   only   will   get   on   board   once   it&#39;s   become   inevitable   that   that&#39;s   what   we&#39;re   doing   like   and   it&#39;s   already   sort   of   already   happened.   But   but   I   but   I   do   think   that   um   like   yeah   I   think   what   what   Chandler   what   you&#39;re   saying   is   right   is   like   yeah   that   like   often   oftentimes   you&#39;re   not   going   to   convince   people   you   just   have   to   go   and   find   a   way   to   show   them   um   I   had   one   particular   project   recently   where   I   sort   of   realized   there&#39;s   no   way   that   I&#39;m   gonna   convince   people   if   I   don&#39;t   just   go   show   them   on   that   although   I   turned   out   to   be   wrong   I   was   able   to   convince   them   otherwise   um   but   but   it&#39;s   harder   for   for   I   still   think   that   the   but   that   the   bar   is   different   for   for   if   you   walk   into   a   room   and   people   don&#39;t   expect   you   to   be   competent   then   then   they   will   treat   you   differently.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>36:19</time>
      <p>
          They   will   speak   to   you   differently   but   even   worse   they   will   not   listen   to   what   you&#39;re   saying.   I   I&#39;ve   been   in   meetings   where   I   will   speak   and   then   then   the   next   person   will   speak   and   nobody   will   ever   mention   that   I   s   said   anything   and   then   you   know   four   minutes   later   a   guy   will   say   exactly   what   I   had   said   four   minutes   earlier   and   then   everybody   be   like   oh   yeah   very   good   point   and   I&#39;m   like   yeah   but   yeah   no   but   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   I   I   yeah   I   I   had   I   had   a   manager   go   to   me   and   said   Patricia   you   need   to   be   more   like   because   I   said   that   I   will   people   were   stealing   my   work   and   you   know   and   he   was   like   ah   you   have   to   be   more   assertive   and   you   have   to   like   like   like   say   I   made   that   and   blah   blah   blah   and   it&#39;s   like   and   and   so   I   was   like   okay   fine   because   you   know   that&#39;s   how   all   of   this   process   works   it   turns   it   against   you   so   it&#39;s   you   that&#39;s   wrong.   It&#39;s   not   the   system   that&#39;s   wrong   it&#39;s   you   that&#39;s   wrong.   So   I   was   like   okay   fine   so   next   time   somebody   presented   my   work   as   their   work   I   said   yeah   it&#39;s   great   that   you   could   use   the   thing   that   I   made   to   do   this   and   my   boss   was   furious.   Yeah   it   was   yelling   at   me   and   I   was   like   I&#39;m   sorry   but   this   was   what   you   told   me   to   do.   It&#39;s   like   I&#39;m   sorry   I   can&#39;t   win   here.   It&#39;s   like   there&#39;s   no   there   this   is   not   a   game   that   is   winnable.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>37:35</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   I   think   the   only   winning   move   is   to   you   know   go   to   a   go   to   a   company   or   an   organization   where   this   does   not   happen.   That&#39;s   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   the   winning   move.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>37:43</time>
      <p>
          One   thing   I   have   uh   I   have   found   tends   to   help   here   um   at   least   in   my   experience   is   if   there   is   something   where   I&#39;ve   said   it   well   I   feel   like   I   feel   like   I&#39;m   answering   the   same   question   multiple   times   or   like   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   explaining   something   and   like   people   just   people   are   just   not   hearing   the   words   they&#39;re   just   hearing   whatever   they   want   in   it.   That   is   often   when   I   realize   okay   it   is   now   time   for   me   to   write   this   down   in   some   document   or   put   it   in   slides   or   something.   And   and   sort   of   sort   of   to   have   some   sort   of   paper   trail   where   the   next   time   that   it   comes   up   I   can   just   instead   of   giving   the   explanation   again,   I   can   just   point   at   I&#39;m   not   going   to   get   into   that   right   now   look   here.   We&#39;ve   already   done   that   and   here&#39;s   the   paper   trail   and   like   here&#39;s   the   answer   to   your   question.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>38:35</time>
      <p>
          Yeah   I   had   to   do   that   all   the   time   there&#39;s   no   way   for   me   to   come   into   and   that   was   also   when   my   boss   was   like   yeah   why   do   you   always   bring   a   PowerPoint   presentation   to   every   meeting   and   I   was   like   not   only   do   I   bring   a   PowerPoint   presentation   to   the   meeting   I   will   send   it   in   the   invite   you   nobody   can   come   and   tell   me   that   they   did   not   see   it   or   didn&#39;t   get   it   and   that   it&#39;s   not   documented   and   time   stamped.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>39:01</time>
      <p>
          I&#39;ve   started   in   every   meeting   that   I   run   I   take   detailed   minutes   and   I   send   them   out   and   I   I   almost   never   read   the   minutes   like   immediately   afterwards.   A   couple   of   the   people   who   are   on   the   meeting   invites   do   read   them   and   give   feedback   so   they   are   useful   in   that   regard   but   the   primary   reason   that   I   do   this   is   that   three   or   four   or   five   times   a   year   I   get   asked   for   a   paper   trail   on   something   and   I   now   have   this   magical   power   where   I   can   be   like   that   happened   on   this   date   on   this   date   on   this   date   and   we   said   you   said   that   that   and   that   and   that   and   it&#39;s   just   like   end   of   discussion.
      </p>

        <cite>Patricia Aas</cite>
      <time>39:38</time>
      <p>
          I   I   I   had   a   wonderful   like   he   he   uh   two   two   mentors   or   bosses   I   guess   uh   at   some   point   in   my   career   and   they   had   a   very   good   uh   like   uh   motto   they   said   that   the   people   who   write   the   minutes   decide   what   was   said   yeah   so   so   they   said   whenever   you   are   in   like   a   meeting   especially   if   it&#39;s   antagonistic   in   some   way   you   make   sure   you   are   the   ones   writing   the   minutes   and   this   is   if   you   look   at   the   history   of   the   COBOL   programming   language   which   was   the   first   language   developed   by   a   committee   that&#39;s   one   of   the   in   in   its   it&#39;s   a   COBOL   is   a   very   interesting   language   because   it   was   developed   in   the   60s   and   s   most   of   the   primary   people   behind   its   development   were   women.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>40:19</time>
      <p>
          Well   how   did   that   come   to   be   well   two   reasons   one   at   that   time   being   an   engineer   or   a   programmer   was   not   you   know   the   cool   thing   it   was   it   was   it   was   all   about   being   a   businessman   the   business   logic   so   most   of   the   technical   people   involved   were   women   but   two   who   took   the   minutes   in   those   meetings   who   was   the   one   that   was   running   the   meetings   where   they   were   developing   COBOL   it   was   always   the   women   the   the   heads   of   all   of   the   subgroups   of   the   COBOL   committee   like   I   think   like   60   or   70%   of   them   were   women   and   like   there   is   an   incredible   power   in   being   the   person   that   is   running   the   meeting   or   that   takes   the   minutes.   Like   you   get   to   literally   write   history.
      </p>

        <cite>Chandler Carruth</cite>
      <time>41:02</time>
      <p>
          So   I&#39;m   just   curious   should   we   try   and   get   back   to   the   actual   okay   or   do   you   want   to   just   keep   going   so   so   so   so   Mr   Cruz.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>41:11</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;ll   pause   here   and   resume   part   three   next   week.   Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>