Bryce

My mother always jokes that she didn't never really believe I graduated until she got the diploma. And even then, she like gave the diploma a good hard luck and she was like, is this something that he could have fabricated?

Conor

Wow.

Bryce

Yeah.

Conor

She's Bryce's mom. Welcome to ABSP the podcast episode 44, recorded on September 11th, 2021. My name is Connor, and today with my co-host Bryce, we reminisce about our university dates and opine on whether or not you should drop out of university. I actually when I graduated, uh, I had to fly back from Toronto to Vancouver, and I did it mostly for my parents, and they gave me that they gave me that degree thing, and it did not mention all it said was Bachelor of Science, nothing but actual science. I was so disappointed, I handed it to my mother and I said, You can have this. This is I can't believe they just painted us all with the same brush. Like I suffered.

Bryce

I had a friend at LSU who got a degree in um it was biomedical or biochemical engineering or something. Um I don't remember what it was specifically, but it was something in that area. But the the actual thing that they put on his diploma um for the degree area was not like the thing that people in the industry were looking for. And so like he had a degree in the area, but he wasn't able to get a job in the field because the spelling of the degree was just not the one that folks w were looking for. Like maybe it was yeah, I don't I don't remember what it was specifically, but like maybe it was that the word engineer wasn't in there, in that he had gotten an engineering degree, but it didn't have engineer in there, and that that caused problems for him. But it was funny, I I didn't go to my graduation, um, and as as as some as you listener know, um I dropped out of college the first time around. And then when I I I ended up working at um a research center at um LSU, and my boss basically tricked me into going back to school and getting a degree um by uh uh essentially telling me it was the only way I could remain employed for him long term. Um so I was like, sure, fine, I'll go take a few classes. Um and then like eventually I had enough credits to graduate. But um uh I had met all the requirements of the LSU College of Science to get the degree. Um I'd taken all the classes, I had turned my terrible GPA into a less terrible GPA because when I dropped out, my GPA was one, which is bad for those who aren't square.

Conor

That's academic probation.

Bryce

But so I I went to like tell them like hey, like this was 2014, end of the fall semester, I was done, I'd done all the credits, and I go to tell the College of Science, like, hey, like I'm um, you know, I should be good to go now. And they tell me, no, no, no, no, you've met all the requirements, but to have gro to get a degree from the College of Science, you must have taken a certain number of credit hours while registered as a student of the College of Science, and you only registered as a student of the College of Science like one semester ago. And I was like, but I've taken all my required coursework. And they were like, Yeah, but like you've got to take six credit hours more. So I was like, all right, well, like fine. What is that?

Conor

Two courses?

Bryce

Yeah, so I took like two courses during the winter break, and my my parents were not thrilled that I didn't come home to visit them, but I'm like, I'm just gonna take the two easiest courses and then just like be out of here. Um and long story short, because of that, that they do have a graduation ceremony at the end of the fall semester, because it's a giant school, so some number of people graduate at that time. But I missed out on that one because um uh I didn't technically graduate at the end of the fall semester. I graduated at the end of the winter like intercession. Um and uh then like I left Louisiana, and at the time I was not particularly enamored with Louisiana, so I had no interest in going back to actually walk for my graduation, so I didn't actually go to my college graduation. But my mother, um, she I had the diploma mailed to them because I had I had just moved and I didn't have a mailing address yet. I I hadn't found a place to live in Berkeley yet. My my mother always jokes that she didn't ever really believe I graduated until she got the diploma. And even then she like gave the diploma a good hard luck and she was like, is this something that he could have fabricated?

Conor

Wow. Yeah Jeez, Bryce's mom. That's uh that's uh you I don't I I think I believe in you, Bryce. I believe in you.

Bryce

I think I don't understand how devious I was as a child.

Conor

Yeah, LSU's in New Orleans, right? Or have the American.

Bryce

That's also why I'm I'm bothered that my diploma says I graduated in 2015, because that's not actually correct. I gradu I I I was done with college like December 2014, but they issued my diploma, you know, the next semester.

Conor

Look at that. I graduated before you.

Bryce

Um did you? When did you graduate?

Conor

It took me six years because I I did a year abroad and I also did a bunch of internships. Um so technically I only did eight semesters academically. Um but yeah, I I started in 2008, September 2008, and I graduated in May 2014.

Bryce

Yeah, I think I I actually only really did like 2.5 um years as a college student. Um I I had like one year where I took like a handful of courses, and then I had a bunch of credits from high school. But then like once I made the decision at LSU that I was gonna get a degree, I just took like an insane number of courses. Um like more courses. I I I think I found some way to take more courses a semester than you were supposed to be allowed to take. And I s yeah. But I I I took a a a very high course though, because I was just like, I just want to be done with this crap.

Conor

So this is this is great. So we we are we have yeah, similar notes of similarity in our backgrounds, as I mentioned last episode, and then I said it it stopped at the credenza and the f furniture and the decorator. But now we're back because I also uh, similar to you, didn't really pay close enough attention to the to the requirements to graduate. And I signed my full-time offer in like October or November of 2013 and told my employer that I was at a co-op at the time that yeah, I should be able to graduate in uh a single semester. I had planned to do two more because I I needed six courses, and a bunch of them were hard, but they basically said, like, if you can do it in one, like we don't care about your grades, you'll have signed the offer, just like if you want to come back, and I said, sure. Uh so I went, signed up for my six courses, and then applied for graduation like in the January, and then they I got rejected, and then I was like, What are you talking about? I'm good to go. And they said, You're missing similar to you. I had all the all the right number of credits, but I had missed that I needed a certain number of upper upper division credits, so 300 or 400 courses, and I was short by uh one credit, and so I had to take a seventh course, which was not allowed. You're only allowed to take a maximum of six. Yeah. But there's one exception. If you're in the final semester and that seventh course is necessary for you to graduate, you can get permission from the registrar's office. Uh so I went to, I believe Sandy was her name. She's a lovely lady, and um I sort of begged. I said, hey, I have this offer. I'd like to go make money. And uh it was a pretty bad semester. I uh I would have been put on academic probation. I finished with a 1.8 GPA um that term.

Bryce

And I'm pretty sure a couple of my next GPA club.

Conor

We're uh yeah, I feel like we're we're setting uh bad role models. Yeah, yeah, kids. Any of the university kids that are listening. Don't do what we did.

Bryce

Go to your classes, don't drop out of college. Uh I actually get a surprising number of people that DM me and ask me about whether they think it's a good idea um for them to drop out of uh college because I did it and you know turned out alright. And have also advocated that, you know, I think uh uh at least for me, I didn't really learn anything in college. It was a very miserable experience. Um I I really didn't enjoy it. I did not enjoy the whole system, I did not enjoy um the fact that they tried to, you know, make me conform to this system. I did not enjoy all the arbitrary requirements, I didn't enjoy being treated like a five-year-old. Um, you know, I They wait, they treat you as five-year-olds? I guess that's sort of how I feel.

Conor

Like, you know, like are you mandated are you mandated to show up to class in America?

Bryce

No, yeah, I just I just mean that like, you know, like like they tell you, like, oh, you can't take, you know, you can only take this many credit. They don't treat you like an adult. And at the time that I was going to college, um, when I was at LSU, I was like working a full-time job and like run I was running a computer lab at at one of LSU's research centers. Um so I wasn't really like in the college phase of my life. Um it was just like a thing that like I had to do. Um and like I've never really been a big believer in traditional education systems, and I just didn't feel like I learned much um uh from school. But uh anyway, so a lot of people will ask me privately about you know whether I think they should drop out of school or not. Um and uh I actually I I I don't frequently advise people to do that. Um uh and here's some of the reasons why. Well, first of all, a lot of people contact me and ask whether they should drop out of school um when they're like two or three years in. Um and as much as I hate college and hate like the modern education system and think it like fundamentally needs to be reformed, if you're like three or two years in and you've got like one year left to complete it, um one, you've already sunk a huge amount of time and money into getting that degree. Um and like there is a tangible benefit that it'll have in your career for you to actually have been a college graduate. Like you can survive as not a college graduate, but there is some benefit to just having it on your resume. You know, it does open up some doors, it does.

Conor

Especially if you want to tra travel and like and and and work abroad, like having having a degree is a big thing.

Bryce

We're gonna get to that in a minute. We'll get to that whole thing in a minute. But just like there is like even though even though I don't think that the college experience is very valuable, I do think that the degree is very valuable.

Conor

Hold it, pause. What do you mean by college? Do you mean the classes or do you mean like the the period of your life that is college attached to that? Because I think those are two different things. Really?

Bryce

Yeah.

Conor

Okay.

Bryce

Yeah. Um at least just for me, it like it was not the right life experience. Um, like I recognize that for some people it is, but um I just it's just not an environment I ever liked. Um but so if you're more than 50% of the way through this investment, both in terms of investment of your time and investment of your money, um I think the bar is really, really gotta be large for you to for you to drop out. Um and uh like I I I've had some people who have contacted me like in their last one or two semesters saying, hey, look, I got this job, this job that uh that's lined up and they want me to just like quit school and come work for them. And and I I I I think that it's really unwise and unfair for companies to offer to do that. Because like if if if somebody is like one semester away from finishing, like just they should just finish.

Conor

Yeah, just do it.

Bryce

Yeah, like you know, even even if you're miserable in college, if you've made it to the point where you've got like one year or two years left, you should just finish. Like it's almost always the right decision for you to just finish. Um, because the opportunity cost is pretty low. Like, I get there are some circumstances where I could see it being the right call. Like if you told me that your buddies were going to do a startup and that like you want you really believed in it and you wanted to get in on the ground floor, um, and that like you know, it was something where you couldn't wait a year or you just completely miss out. Sure, fair enough. Um but uh but yeah, so so so that's the first thing is most people come and ask me about um whether they should go to whether they should finish college, you know, part of the way through. And I sort of get that because if you think about it, almost nobody is thinking about not going to college, or or I should say, the the for people that don't have the means to go to college, um uh you're not thinking about not going in your first year or before you even go, normally. Um because you haven't realized at that point that it wasn't the right thing for you. Like it's natural that the time that you're gonna start thinking about whether you should finish college is when you're 50% of the way through. Because that's the point where like you've been there long enough that the honeymoon period's worn off and like you've learned some stuff, and maybe now you have some other opportunities lined up. So like it's very natural at that phase to start thinking about, yeah, maybe I don't need to do this. It's not natural for you to realize like immediately your first semester in college, like, oh, this is miserable, I don't want to do that. But if you if you did go to one semester of college and you just thought it was miserable and you had some other opportunities lined up, um, like that's a circumstance where I might recommend that you drop out. I'd have to learn a lot more about your situation. And that's that's the other thing, which is um one of the first things I ask somebody if they're talking to me about dropping out in college, is like, I basically want to know are they or are they not a white male from the US or a certain set of European countries that have um uh preferential immigration status to the rest of the world. Because if you are not a white male from either the US or Canada or like a European country in the Schengen area, um then not having a college degree is going to have real impact on your ability to immigrate and your ability to get a job. Um like if you're if you're if you're a white guy who's a college dropout in the US, like you're gonna be fine. You're gonna probably be fine, you know? Um but if you're you know uh a black woman, that's that that is gonna have much more of a real impact on on your ability to get a job. Um and so maybe for you the degree is actually more valuable. Um and like especially when it comes to matters of immigration. Um I know some really some really, really smart people um who do not live in the US. Um like in particular some of my friends and colleagues who live in Nigeria. And these guys, you know, one of them I think you know, do you know Bassett?

Conor

Yeah, yeah.

Bryce

Yeah, absolutely brilliant guy. Um, but you know, he's he's had a hard time um uh getting internships because of the country that he's based in. Even in remote work times, you know, it can be challenging for people who are not in the US because if you're if you live in uh Nigeria or if you live in um I'm trying to think of another another country that'd be a good example, say Iran. Um you know, all of the big it's possible that the big multinational tech companies may not even have operations in that country. So even if they'd be willing to give you a remote internship, they may not have the capability to do so because HR does not have a way to set that up. Um and then, you know, figuring out how to get an immigration visa is really tough. It's become a lot tougher in recent years, and it it's much harder when you don't have a degree. Um, especially if you're from you know a certain set of countries that have extra extra um restrictions on them. Like I the research group I used to work in in uh uh LSU, we had a lot of um Iranian uh uh uh students and um most of them got their masters in Iran. Some of them were undergrads who came over, but it was just it was let me tell you, it's real tough to get into the US on a on a student visa if you're from Iran. Um yeah. And um and yeah, so so it's weird, but I, the college dropout who has spoken about how I I do not enjoy college frequently, I oftentimes find myself advising people that perhaps they should stick around and finish out school.

Conor

Yeah, I uh I completely agree. I I don't think I had the ex like we didn't have super similar experiences. Like I was not a big fan of yeah, the traditional education system. I had a couple really, really good professors, like Gary Parker, Dr. Gary Parker, he was um I took two or three actuarial mathematics courses with him. He by far was the best professor I've I had in university and and actually treated his he treated all of his students, not just with as like as adults, but he he expected you to like elevate yourself to, you know, whatever wherever you were at in your life, you know. I remember one of the first things he said in uh ACMA 320, which was sort of the once you conditionally or unconditionally got into the program, um he said in the first lectures, he says, you know, I'm gonna do my best, and all I ask is that you do yours. Uh and he just he cared so much about his students, and um so I I had a couple really good professors. Um but a lot of professors aren't great, you know, they're there to they're not there to teach, they're they're there to do their research, and they just they have to do teaching as a part of it.

Bryce

I I think that's the case, but you know, I I I don't think that I don't think that m my problem with college was necessarily um, you know, a problem with my professors. I I had a number of really good professors. Um uh one of my I I took a bunch of philosophy and religious studies classes at LSU, um, and that was those were like the one set of classes that I really found rewarding, and I had a really great professor um who taught them. Um and there were a bunch of other professors that I I worked with or interacted with who were very um, you know, they were very good. Um I I certainly I had I had a handful who were quirky or who were clearly very smart, but were not um they were not educators, um, or they had just not been trained to educate, which I think is one of the problems with the system, which is just because you have a PhD in physics does not have the training to teach physics.

Conor

Like I took a Comsite course uh in data structures, and uh the class was co going too slowly, so they decided to skip hash tables. Hash tables for a number of years was a data structure that I had heard of, and all I knew of it is that was the data structure we skipped.

Bryce

And that's not the one data structure that we should know.

Conor

Fast forward to one point I was interviewing at Google and I had an on-site, this was way, way early when I had just sort of trying to switch from actuary to tech. And they sent you these documents, and one of the things in the documents was like, out of all the data structures that you should know, coming to the you know, interviews where we're gonna ask you a lot of algorithms, data structures, problems, know the hash table. Like, know how to implement a simple hash table. Hash table is by far the most important, or hash table, hash map, whatever you want to call it, is is the most important uh data structure. And I was just like laughing when I read that because I was like, oh yeah, that you mean the data structure that my prof skipped because we didn't have time. Uh we we went through all the different flavors of the red black trees and the self-sorting and blah blah blah.

Bryce

Um well and that that that's another that's an example of another problem, which is um the people at the university that are teaching the classes are not always the people who know what skills uh you need, like what skills are currently in demand in the industry.

Conor

Yeah, well that's that's uh that's been a problem for forever. It's like especially with CS, it's always lagging by, you know, if you're lucky five years. Um if if you're not, it's lagging by, you know. I don't think I've actually heard of a couple universities in in Europe. Like I I Ivan Chukic, if I probably mispronounced that name, um, but uh The author of functional programming in C. I know he I know he at one point is I I I think he's sort of still a professor. He works at um uh KDAB. I think maybe he's moved to somewhere somewhere else. But I know that there's a couple props in in in Europe that teach modern C, but uh it's far and few between that you're gonna find a course that actually teaches you, you know, the like the standard library, you know, algorithm data, you know, data structure headers and whatnot. And uh it's it's mostly like the implementation of just some generic thing, and they're like choose whatever language you want. And how often are you gonna be actually implementing a red black tree for work? No, like every language, you know, Java has your tree map, C has your uh whatever, maps and sets, and uh not that that stuff's not valuable, but there's another version of a course that they could give that would be so much more useful. So wait, so you said you didn't have a problem with the courses, so why why I I think one of my fundamental well, I didn't have a problem with the teachers.

Bryce

I did have a problem with the courses, and one of the reasons that I have a problem with the courses is because courses are graded. Um and I understand the rationale for why it is necessary to um grade students, but um I do not think that it produces desirable outcomes. Um when the the re I think the reality is that a very large chunk of students learn how to get um an acceptable grade from a class, not how to instead of learning the actual content of the class. Um certainly this was my approach because I if I wanted to the the two things are often at odds. Um if I wanted to both really learn something from the class and also get a good grade, like those were two separate things in many cases. Um because the the ways in which we have to like you know assess um student performance in classes, um, I just think are like horribly inefficient. Um and so at least for me as a student, instead of like learning the content, I figured out what I needed to do to get you know the best grade. And not even that, I learned what I needed to do to get um uh you know a grade that was acceptable to me because I didn't have, you know, I didn't have time to do more than that. And and I mean to be fair, you know, I I I worked full-time the entire time I was in college. Um so that that certainly might, you know, uh contribute to my uh my frustration here that I I was never a full-time student. Um and when I say work full-time, I meant like really I would work like you know 50, 60 hours a week. Um, you know, maybe maybe a bit less when like my my last few semesters. But um I I also think that the the fact that courses are graded um make the teacher-student relationship um very different, um that there's always a an inherent conflict there. Um, you know, uh is a student really interacting with the professor to learn or to improve their grade, um, or to get the professor to like them so that they, you know, score something that is gonna be created subjectively, like an essay better. Um and uh and so I I think that it becomes hard for students and teachers to build actual real mentor-mentee bonds that you need to really learn something when there's this arbitrary grading system. Um and also like I think um you know the required curriculum that a lot of schools have, um, I think is just sort of nonsense. Um especially there's a lot of schools that still require some core curriculum of something. Um I know I at least in college had to take some number of classes that I had zero desire in taking um and that I only took because I was essentially required to. Um and I do not think that you're gonna get great outcomes out of students that are taking the class merely because they're required to.

Conor

I'll I'll actually push back on that a little bit. Um I used to think the exact same thing. Like my my father is a journalist, I think this has been mentioned before, so he's a big writer, and I'm a big I was a math person at the time, and I I hated writing. Or I I shouldn't say I hated writing. I hated any form of course that um someone's opinion it was involved with the grade that I was getting, which is why I really liked math, because math was not subjective. Uh, if you were doing some sort of calculation, there was one right answer because of rules. Whereas if you write a paper on not always.

Bryce

Like if you're if you're doing a proof in a math class, that's not entirely that's somewhat subjective. And also in a lot of math courses, you have to show your work. Showing the right answer is not sufficient. And so the the teacher is gonna judge the mechanism by which you came to the answer.

Conor

Yeah, I mean, I had a math teacher like that in high school, and um I I despised, I despised that because like, you know, they would see uh uh what looked like a uh a one with like a little hat, which was actually a seven, as one of the digits of a number, and like everything else was perfect, and then they'd be like, Well, you have a one there, that's incorrect, and be like, how did I get everything else right? And like that's clearly a seven, except I just didn't put the little line through it, anyways. I think for the most part, for the most part, um math and and physics and stuff, there's a lot less subjectivity. Whereas you're writing a paper for you know a philosophy course, it's just completely um, you know, how do they think you did? Um that being said, I did end up having to take, you know, two uh qualitative or W courses, which are like writing. Um, and I ended up taking a history course, and that was probably one of the courses I learned the most from because it was the first time in my life, very sadly, that someone had ever taken the time to um teach how to like critically analyze a sort like the sources of a paper, you know, not just who wrote it, but like when what was when was it written? You know, what what's the context around that that period of time, what was going on globally? Like uh and it wasn't until then that I had any idea that there was these, you know, uh left wing, right uh ring uh wing, you know, media sources, and that you know, it wasn't until then that I realized every single time you read something, you should be checking, you know, you know, what school did this you know person go to? Like what school school of thought are they coming from? Are they libertarian, blah, blah, blah? Up until that point in my life, and that was the last semester uh of my education. So that was 2014. I was I was 24 at the time. I'd never learned that. Um and that came from taking a course that was outside of the courses. And so my dad would always say, Oh, yeah, that's great for a well-rounded education, and I'd be like, garbage, like it's not gonna help me make, you know, it's not gonna help me get employed or make more money in the future. Um, but I think there is some merit to trying to encourage that kind of uh well-roundedness.

Bryce

And I say that reluctantly because like I I kinda I'm I'm not entirely opposed to that, but my my my point is more that um your options are often very limited. Um I I could like I could be fine with a school system that required you to um have a you know a broad education, but did not prescribe it to the same degree that uh uh that you know some schools do. Um like uh um so I I get really um squeamish around anything like medical related, like really squeamish, like you know, like I get panic attacks if I go to get a needle. Um and LSU required us to take um like a two two biology courses, and I'm pretty sure it's because it was Okay, that that's that's that's silly. Yeah, but but I I'll tell you the reason why. Um, because it it definitely came up in one of the one of the courses where one of the courses has an evolution um section to it. Um and it's Louisiana where there is a um uh there are many there are many religious people in the state. And so I'm pretty sure that the that that LSU just didn't want to graduate anybody who had not um uh uh been uh educated about the theory of evolution. Um and in and in fact, I think there was like a certain test where like to pass the test, you had to um you had to like essentially like like show your understanding and acceptance of the theory of evolution. But like I just like I I was absolutely miserable in that class. Um uh, you know, there were like sections of it that just like would make me like queasy like being in the classroom. And it's like I just had no desire to be there. Um, you know, if you told me like take some some science class that's you know outside of your main area, like I'm sure you know I really like geology, I probably would have gone taken like a geology class or like something else. But you know, I a lot of these college degree plans are like very, very prescriptive. And uh I don't know that really helps anyone.

Conor

U Yeah, I think at SFU, Simon Fraser, I went, like the the breadth requirements is what they called them. It was very, very uh small. So I think you had to take at least two Q courses, which stood for quantitative, and like full some philosophy courses that focused on logic, like those qualified, so you didn't even really need to take math or anything like that. And you needed to take uh like two W uh or Q or yeah, W requirements, which were like the writing ones. So I think I said qualitative before, but um and and so like as a math student, it was the W ones that I had to get, and then like the the art students had to take the Q. Um and I I don't I don't I think that's acceptable as like you know that it's not I probably would have been fine with that.

Bryce

But but you know, LSU was much more prescriptive. Yeah, that's uh uh and I I just thought of an example of the the inherent um conflict between student and teachers that I think is our education system is currently playing out. Have you seen have you read any of the articles or seen anything about some of this proctoring software that uh students are being forced to use to take tests or um uh uh uh some of this uh or you know, some of the the like monitoring software that they have to use when they're in virtual classrooms?

Conor

Uh I have not personally read or um had to do that myself. I do know people though that when they were taking licensing exams in like the last um couple years, that yeah, they've had to have their webcam on and like they've got it's and it's it's just I've the the stories that I've heard are absolutely horrifying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bryce

It's like it's absolutely draconian and and you know it's not always the professor's like choice to do that, but in some cases the professor is doing that because they don't want because they're worried about the student, you know, cheating or scamming them or doing something, and and that's sort of what I'm getting at is that like because of because classes are graded, there's always this confrontational and transactional relationship between students and teachers. And how can you you know how how do they expect people to learn from somebody when it's set up like that?

Conor

Yeah. The the space that I've heard about it in is is the the um for for medical students and the on top of what medical students are going through, like the stress that it was like causing uh the people that I knew, like it was just yeah, the draconian is an amazing word for it. It's it it was and it was just it was so unnecessary, like uh and this the scheduling because usually the tests are taken in person and it was just the whole thing was just uh a nightmare.

Bryce

I I I one time the first year of C Now, we had a was he a high school? No, it was the second year of C now. The first year of C now, we had this high school student who came to the student volunteer program. In the second year, he had graduated high school and he was in college. And um C now is uh scheduled in an unfortunate time for um American college students because it's in May, and it and for a lot of students it ends up being the week of their finals or like the week right before their finals. Um and so this kid um uh managed to get all of his he scheduled to take all of his exams early with all of his professors, except for his calculus one professor. And his calculus one professor did not want to allow him to take the exam early. Again, not late. He was volunteering to take his final exam early. And his calculistic professor didn't want him to do that because there was a possibility that he might then share what was on the on the test with other students and then cheat. So, no, the professor insisted that he had to take the test at the same time as everybody else. Um and so we finally worked out a settlement where the student volunteer came to the conference, but then during the prescribed time when everybody else was taking the test, he would take the test in my hotel room. And I somehow got volunteered to be the person to proctor the test. I had never met this professor before. But for whatever reason, this professor who had never met me just trusted that I would be, you know, that I somehow would be a more trustworthy person than this very bright and intelligent and trustworthy student of his that just wanted to go, you know, go to this excellent career opportunity. Um, but no, he couldn't be trusted to uh take the test early or to take the test himself. Um no, there had to be somebody there to supervise to make sure that he was not cheating. Um and that was just, you know, that particular professor I think was a little bit was a little bit much, but um I think the system made him that way.

Conor

Yeah.

Bryce

Oh boy, I sound like a conspiracy theorist.

Conor

Well, no, so so I'll I'll just I'll go back to just trying to give my summary of my take on on university. So I, you know, I had grid profs. I wasn't a um I wasn't a huge fan of the system. That being said, um I absolutely loved and like it, I really feel like I'm I'm you know, it's hard to be aware of the opportunity that you have when you're in university. I think it's different for you because you were working 50-60 hours a week. I worked during uh the summers and when I was on co-op and internship, and that's how I paid my way through school. But like while I was in school, if I did have a job, it was only ever taking up like 10 hours a week. Like I worked in residence for a while, sort of helping out, but it was a very low overhead job and actually ended up like you you did that job, and then you would get uh free residence for this semester while you were working. But basically, the thing that I would say is like the the friends and the community that you are exposed to there. Like I just finished reading a book called Together by Vivek Murphy, who is the 19th Surgeon General of America, and it's about loneliness and like the increasing rise of loneliness in like the world, partially due to social media and at one point they partially due to this whole pandemic thing. Well, actually, so he wrote the book and was publishing it right as we were going into the pandemic.

Bryce

Oh wow.

Conor

Uh and he has a little bit like in the f in the foreword, yeah, um, that talks about like, you know, I didn't even had no idea this was coming, but yeah, it's makes it even more as you just said, pressed.

Bryce

He said he was a doctor. He said he was a doctor, he's part of that, he's part of the conspiracy.

Conor

I will not be a part of uh promoting whatever conspiracy Bryce is trying to shill right now. But at one point, my favorite part of the book is when he there's these three studies that identify that there's like three different types of loneliness. And the the first one is intimates, and that's like wanting uh uh someone to confide in, whether that's in the form of a partner or a really good friend. Then there's relationshipslash friendship, and that's like your group of you know, close 15 friends. And then there's what they call collective loneliness, is like not being a part of a community of sort of like a larger purpose. And I think that like university is like the best opportunity, it was the best period of my life to find like all three of those at the same time. Um, because like you're you're a part of these classes, and that's the collective, you end up making great friends, that's the relationship, and then for many people, they end up, you know, whether it's uh ends up being long-term and permanent or you know, ephemeral, you end up sort of being in a phase of your life where you're you're looking to meet someone. Yeah. And and like I definitely like you know, I I lived in residence for all uh all year, all the semesters that I was on campus and not abroad. And there's just so much, you know, intramurals and activities that you get to do. And it was um that part of university, like I absolutely loved.

Bryce

And uh Yeah, I I I never I never really had that. I mean, when I was at LSU, um I you know I never lived in student housing. I was working all the time. Um, and like the really the major thing though was that I was at a different phase in my life than uh than the other students. Um like we were I was maybe one or one year older than or two years older than some of my classmates, but um, you know, I was working full-time. Uh you know, like sort of I was I was in an adult, but I think like if I had gone to take a class at a community college, I probably would have had more like with people, you know, who had full-time jobs who who you know, or like a night class at a community college, I probably would have had more in common with those students than with you know students, you know undergrads at a large party school who um just had very different interests and priorities than mine. Um but even even when I was you know, I the the college I dropped out of was a school called Union College in upstate New York. Um and even when I was like there, like and I was living in student housing and I was not working full-time, um, I just never really had that connection. You know, my my community was always some collection of people that I knew online before it was programming folks, it was you know various gaming communities, but uh by that time it had started to be programming folks. So I always sort of like had that community, but it was just never it was just never that college community.

Conor

Yeah, I guess yeah, it depends where you're coming from. Like I I came from a smaller city and was always like uh I never fit in in high school, and you know, I I liked going to math clubs and doing a math contest and stuff, and uh there was very few people that I I clicked with. Um Benjamin Chung was one of them, he was my math rival. Uh he ended up going to University of Alberta and getting a biomedical uh biomedical engineering degree. Um and uh but then when I showed up at university, like the first day of orientation, which was like the week before university, it was all students that wanted to uh be either statistics or actual science majors. And I was just like, wow, I've never met so many people similar to myself. And yeah, to this day, like I'm one of my best friends is Steven, who I I met on that first day. Um and uh, you know, when we that's the thing is we we we do virtual board games every once in a while, and like we were playing Catan the other day, and that's like these are the kind of people that are like working through the statistical odds of like okay, which uh what should I do? What's statistically like the best outcome, you know, in there they take board games like uh I can play for fun, but I I like playing board games more like you know, really taking it seriously. And um, actuaries and statisticians, uh most of the ones that I've come across all sort of bring the same rigor to the to the calculations that are done while playing board games, anyways. This is gonna be a long-winded episode of uh wait, so so have we answered one, should you go to university, and two, should you drop out? So I think the answer is dropout, probably not, especially if you're two, three years in, just finish it. Or maybe we should have a whole other episode on should you go to university.

Bryce

Um Yeah. Although if we if we do that, we're gonna get letters from parents.

Conor

You're gonna get letters from parents. I think, especially in Canada, our education system is doing a lot better than America's, no offense.

Bryce

Um, but but hang on, but but before we go there, you know, it it it's um, you know, I I I didn't I didn't I was I was one of the like, you know, I wasn't a popular kid in high school, but I went to like a science and engineering high school and uh Yeah, yeah.

Conor

We've we've we've told it's uh it's pretty epic high school, yes.

Bryce

Yeah, yeah, that's the middle school. The middle school, middle school was great. That was the the weird, funky private middle school. But I went to the science and engineering high school after it, which was a magnet school, and um there was you know, there was a a group of people that were more, you know, sort of my type people who were interested in science. And um, you know, I I I had plenty of friends there. Um uh, you know, I had some of them who had been um people who had we'd gone to elementary school together, then we'd gone to middle school together at the private middle school, and then we'd gone to this magnet, this science magnet school together. Um so like I I definitely had some friends. I wasn't, you know, the loneliest kid in the world. But I I was raised as an only child, um, you know, with a single mother, so I sort of was always always pretty comfortable, you know, being on my own. Um but I'm not really I'm not really in touch with with any of those folks anymore. Um once I went to college, I just sort of fell out of touch with with all of them. And I I made some friends when I was at uh Union College before I dropped out, um, but I I have not been in touch with any of them since I dropped out. Um when I was at LSU, I made like I think maybe one at most uh friend. Maybe there was like one or two people that I was that your biking buddy? No, no, no. I I'm just talking about other students that I ran into in classes. I had plenty of friends who were co-workers at the research center. And I had pl there were plenty of you know undergrads or graduate students who were also who were my co-workers who I was friendly with, but not really anybody who I ever had classes with. Um and yeah, I mean it's my oldest friend is somebody that I know from a gaming community that I've never actually met in person, who I've known since like I was 12. Um like, you know, the yeah, it's it's it was funny because like I realized a while back like he's the person I've probably known and had continuous conversations with the longest. Um but yeah, it's just I never I never really had good connections with the community until I uh until I found my way into programming and and met the you know, made all my friends that I now have in the programming community. So yeah.

Conor

Yeah, different phases different stages or phases of your life you're gonna sync more with people. I guess I I gotta mention Chris Gasky too. I mentioned Ben, but yeah, Chris Chris was my science fair. We went to maybe that that should be an episode one day. Not that people care, maybe not. I went to uh three national science fairs.

Bryce

Yeah, no, that's definitely gonna be an episode.

Conor

Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed and have a great day.