

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>0:00</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   a   good   question.   Uh   it   really   is.   And   and   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   thought   about   it   a   bit   of   times.   I&#39;d   like   to   say   I   I   I   was   present.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>0:17</time>
      <p>
          Welcome   to   ADSP   the   podcast,   episode   59,   recorded   on   December   2nd,   2021.   My   name   is   Connor,   and   today   with   my   co-host   Bryce,   we   continue   part   two   of   our   conversation   with   father   and   son,   Otto   and   Eric   Newood.   If   you   haven&#39;t   listened   to   episode   one,   I   highly   recommend   listening   to   that   one   first.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>0:36</time>
      <p>
          I   mentioned   that   the   Wall   Street   area   was   going   through   some   fairly   heavy   trauma   during   the   late   60s.   I   don&#39;t   know   if   you&#39;re   familiar   with   that   part   of   history   of   Wall   Street.   And   uh   but   uh   what   was   happening   is   that   the   uh   the   stock   market   was   growing   exponentially.   And   between   uh   65   and   68,   uh   the   the   volume   of   transactions   on   on   the   exchange   itself   went   from   5   million   to   12   million   within   three   years,   which   almost   destroyed   Wall   Street.   They   basically,   uh   whatever   transaction   occurred,   a   stock   was   traded.   They   would   manually   transfer   the   stock   into   the   owner&#39;s   name.   That&#39;s   a   it   was   a   very   manual   process.   It   was   on   paper.   We   didn&#39;t   get   a   certificate   in   effect.   That   destroyed   three   or   four   different   brokerage   firms.   They   couldn&#39;t   keep   up   with   it,   and   the   SEC   shut   them   down.   Uh,   I   think   the   most   notorious   was   Hayden   Stone   Brokerage.   They   literally   shut   down   uh   that   brokerage   firm.   And   then   they   introduced   something   called   Central   Certificate   Service,   where   they   basically   had   a   banking   service   introduced,   but   instead   of   money,   they   wouldn&#39;t   have   certificates   in   accounts.   And   to   do   the   trading,   they   would   actually   do   accounting   uh   postings   where   they   transfer   one   into   the   other   without   any   paper   transfer.   And   that   saved   Wall   Street&#39;s   bacon   for   the   most   part,   but   that   all   required   computers,   and   so   they   all   had   to   get   on   board   very   quickly   and   get   all   their   back   office   operation   translated   into   an   automated   system,   but   not   without   a   lot   of   collateral   damage.   They   lost   about   six   to   ten   brokerage   firms   that   couldn&#39;t   handle   it,   and   they   could   not   find   anybody   or   couldn&#39;t   find   the   staffing,   uh   the   technology   at   that   time.   And   if   you   were   anything   close   to   a   computer,   they   would   gobble   you   up   and   give   you   anything   you   wanted   in   terms   of   salary.   If   you   could   spell   the   word   computer,   you&#39;re   hired.   That&#39;s   basically   what   it   was.   And   they   had   headhunters   all   over   the   place   trying   to   get   uh   technology   staff   from   one   brokerage   firm   to   the   other   brokerage   firm.   Uh,   and   it   was   there   was   piracy   on   Wall   Street   just   to   get   the   right   people   there.   But   uh   that&#39;s   basically   how   traumatic   it   was   during   the   late   60s.   Wow.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>3:11</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   super   interesting   to   hear   because   at   one   point   in   my   career   I   wanted   to   be   like   a   quant   and   wanted   to   work   on   Wall   Street.   So   I&#39;ve   read   a   ton   of   books   about   you   know   uh   the   90s   until   like   the   early   2000s,   but   like   it&#39;s   all   it&#39;s   it   was   it&#39;s   you   know,   it&#39;s   completely   different   world,   like   to   hear   the   early   days   of   be   having   to   actually   physically   transfer.   Oh,   I   own   this   stock   and   it&#39;s   a   certificate.   And   that   was   uh   a   trading   house   like   couldn&#39;t   keep   up   with   that,   and   then   they   would   go   under,   like   versus   now.   I   mean,   it&#39;s   basically   algorithms,   and   you   know,   the   the   human   in   the   loop   is   is   very   minimal.   It&#39;s   like   you   know,   a   trader   staring   at   12   screens,   just   monitoring   what   a   bunch   of   algorithm,   you   know,   proprietary   algorithms   they&#39;re   executing.   And   it&#39;s   hard   to   even   imagine   like   that   time   where   you   know   computers   aren&#39;t   even   uh   in   that   system,   like   that   Wall   Street.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>4:01</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   it&#39;s   amazing.   Once   they   learned   what   computers   can   do,   Wall   Street   really   grabbed   the   bit   and   ran   with   it.   Uh   they   basically   uh   uh   were   uh   totally   automated   within   three   or   four   years,   and   but   they   began   to   realize   the   other   potential,   other   than   become   being   more   efficient,   they   also   said   that   they   could   do   a   lot   more   in   terms   of   scientific   investing   uh   with   the   computers,   doing   the   analysis   rather   than   having   people.   So   the   automation   process   went   very   quickly   once   they   realized   the   upside   potential   of   computers.   But   uh   it&#39;s   an   industry,   it&#39;s   an   interesting   uh   evolution   on   Wall   Street   because   Wall   Street   prior   to   had   uh   a   very   heavy   reluctance   to   automate   anything.   Another   interesting   story   about   Wall   Street   is   uh   automating   the   specialist.   The   specialist   on   the   floor   of   the   exchange   is   a   very   unique   individual.   He   basically   uh   buys   when   everybody&#39;s   selling   and   sells   when   everybody&#39;s   buying.   His   primary   purpose   is   to   stabilize   the   market   so   it   doesn&#39;t   go   crazy.   That&#39;s   that&#39;s   a   unique   feature   of   the   stock   exchange.   But   working   with   them   personally,   they&#39;re   the   biggest   crooks   on   Wall   Street.   They   basically   are   responsible   for   maybe   a   half   a   dozen   stocks,   and   they   basically   have   to   stabilize   the   stocks,   but   they   trade   on   inside   information   very   easily   because   they   they   know   uh   what   is   going   up   and   what&#39;s   going   down   before   anybody   knows   about   it,   and   they   all   have   uh   proxy   accounts   that   they   can   use   very,   very   easily,   and   the   SEC   is   always   on   top   of   that.   Uh,   one   of   the   projects   I   was   assigned   is   automating   the   specialist   book.   The   book   is   where   you   post   your   trade.   If   you&#39;re   a   broker,   you   would   uh   approach   a   specialist   and   say,   when   this   stock   hits   this   price,   sell   or   buy   this   this   stock   for   it   for   me.   And   he   keeps   that   in   a   book,   and   it&#39;s   a   manual   book.   So   we   wanted   to   help   him.   And   I   was   a   very   naive   manager   at   the   time,   and   I   went   down   to   the   specialist   and   says,   We&#39;re   gonna   do   a   great   thing   for   you,   we&#39;re   gonna   automate   your   book.   And   I   the   words   I   got   back   were   not   very   pleasantly   to   the   effect   as   like   hell   you   will,   and   they   didn&#39;t   want   any   part   of   it   because   they   feel   that   having   the   footprints   of   what   they   do   available   to   the   SEC   is   comparable   to   suicide.   So   they   didn&#39;t   want   any   part   of   they   didn&#39;t   want   any   part   of   automation   whatsoever.   They   did   not   want   Big   Brother   looking   over   their   shoulder   at   all.   So,   but   uh   that   type   of   uh   automation   was   strictly   unwon   by   by   the   Ford   the   Exchange.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>6:51</time>
      <p>
          So,   did   you   end   up   being   successful   or   what   happened?
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>6:54</time>
      <p>
          At   some   point   and   said,   Thou   shalt   automate   that   book,   and   that   was   one   of   my   projects   as   well.   We   automated   the   specialist   book,   and   uh   uh   it   turned   out   to   be   a   blessing   because   it   it   freed   up   the   the   specialist,   made   him   a   little   bit   more   honest,   but   also   freed   him   up   and   made   him   a   little   more   efficient,   so   he   was   able   to   do   more   work   and   get   more   money   out.   So   it   worked   out   well   for   the   specialist,   but   was   not   without   a   fight,   though,   I&#39;ll   tell   you.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>7:21</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   it&#39;s   interesting   that   to   hear   that   the   thing   that   really   drove   the   automation   was   that   that   increase   in   volume,   that   it   that   the   volume   reached   a   point   where   it   where   there   was   no   other   there   was   no   other   alternative.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>7:33</time>
      <p>
          No,   that   was   that   was   a   condition   of   of   the   economy   at   the   time.   The   automation   didn&#39;t   have   much   to   do   with   it.   Automation   basically   alleviated   the   uh   the   the   stress   of   the   added   volume.   And   uh   they   looked,   they   they   it   was   a   lifesaver   for   Wall   Street,   it   really   was.   Uh,   but   it   did   not   generate   that   traffic.   It   was   another   thing   that   caused   that   traffic.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>7:56</time>
      <p>
          So   not   not   to   not   to   switch   topics,   but   a   couple   times   earlier   you   said,   you   know,   referring   to   tech   of   and   how   far   things   have   come.   And   if   if   I   recall   correctly,   you   said   in   in   56,   uh   when   you   saw   the   computer,   like   you   sort   of   knew   it   was   gonna   be   a   big   deal,   in   spite   of   you   know,   your   your   parents   or   your   dad   being   like,   come   on,   you   gotta   you   should   reconsider   staring   down   people&#39;s   throats   and   be   a   dentist.   And   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   not   sure   what   the   equivalent   is   today,   if   it&#39;s   you   know,   you   seeing   something   that   how   how   do   you   know   it&#39;s   gonna   have   the   impact   it   does?   So   do   you   know   what   led   you   to   think   that   computers   were   gonna   have   like   because   my   guess   is   there   was   a   bunch   of   folks   that   saw   computers   and   were   like,   okay,   like   I&#39;m   sure   this   will   be   neat,   but   like   now   they&#39;re   they&#39;re   everywhere.   What   made   you   think   that   it   it   was   gonna   be   it   was   gonna   be   this   game-changing   thing?   Or   do   you   know?   Can   you   repeat   that?
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>8:50</time>
      <p>
          That&#39;s   a   good   question.   Uh   it   really   is,   and   uh   I&#39;ve   thought   about   it   many   times.   I&#39;d   like   to   say   I   I   I   was   pressing   it   about   what&#39;s   happening   to   computers,   but   I   wasn&#39;t.   Uh   it   was   a   type   of   thing   that   I   thoroughly   enjoyed   doing.   Uh   I   looked   at   it   as   a   game,   actually,   and   I   said,   uh,   would   people   be   willing   to   pay   me   money   to   do   something   that   I   enjoy   so   much?   And   I   said,   Well,   I   don&#39;t   know   if   they   will,   but   I&#39;ll   I&#39;d   like   to   find   out.   And   I   think   that&#39;s   what   drove   me,   not   the   vision   of   tomorrow   and   what   role   it   plays.   Um   GE   had   a   lot   to   do   with   uh   bringing   the   computer   age   into   being.   I   don&#39;t   know   if   you   remember   the   66   World   World&#39;s   Fair,   they   had   a   beautiful   exhibit   about   uh   technology   of   tomorrow.   And   that   basically   brought   home   the   message   of   what   really   could   happen   with   technology.   I   had   the   vision   a   lot   before   that,   not   the   vision,   I   had   the   urge   to   be   part   of   it   well   before   that.   But   I   think   that   type   of   mentality,   what   really   brought   uh   people   in   really   into   interest   and   look   looking   at   it   as   a   career,   and   that   this   there   is   a   tremendous   potential.   And   I   think   one   of   the   big   one   of   the   big   companies   like   GE   and   others   started   talking   about   what   could   possibly   happen,   you   know,   if   you   really   applied   your   imagination   to   it.   What   could   possibly   happen   with   a   computer?   It   really   bottled   your   mind.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>10:21</time>
      <p>
          What   were   some   some   of   the   things   that   they   showed   at   the   66   World   Fair?
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>10:26</time>
      <p>
          It   wasn&#39;t   just   computers,   it   was   just   the   uh   different   types   of   uh   transportation,   different   types   of   uh   automation   of   the   home.   It   was   different   types   of   uh   communication.   Uh,   I   can&#39;t   be   more   specific   than   that,   but   they   gave   you   examples   of   all   of   it,   what   it   would   look   like   in   uh   tomorrow&#39;s   land.   It&#39;s   like   they   had   a   I   think   an   actual   exhibit   called   Tomorrowland,   and   uh   and   show   you   a   whole   bunch   of   things,   mostly   around   the   home,   around   the   transportation,   around   industry.   Uh   uh   at   that   time,   Dick   Tracy&#39;s   talking   watch   was   considered   leading   edge   technology,   you   know.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:01</time>
      <p>
          Um   I&#39;m   trying   to   look   up   when   when   the   last   actual   because   I   don&#39;t   think   world   fairs   were   a   thing.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:07</time>
      <p>
          Um   when   I&#39;ve   worked   in   them   in   a   while.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:11</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   So   when   was   the   last   world   uh   world   fair?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:16</time>
      <p>
          Well   while   while   you&#39;re   looking   that   up,   um   we   should   ask   Eric   about   his   time   as   a   as   a   freelancer   because   I   think   that&#39;s   one   of   the   more   one   of   the   more   interesting   periods   of   Eric&#39;s   career.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>11:28</time>
      <p>
          And   this   ties   in   with   our   other   guest,   uh   Dave   Abrahams,   does   it   not?
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>11:32</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   yes,   it   does.   Oh   yeah,   yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>11:34</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   actually,   uh   yeah.   So   um   right,   right,   right.   So   so   I   was   I   was   working   at   uh   at   Microsoft   and   I   started   getting   involved   in   uh   in   Boost   a   little   bit.   Um   and   I   I   I   I   think   I   went   to   some   sort   of   a   con.   No,   I   mean   maybe   maybe   I   hadn&#39;t   been   involved   in   Boost   just   yet,   but   I   went   to   a   conference,   and   at   a   conference,   I   I   met   Dave   Abrahams.   And   I   remember   sitting   um   at   a   bar   with   Dave,   just   um,   you   know,   chatting   over   a   beer,   and   you   know,   we   we   just   seemed   um   to   be   two   Ps   in   a   pod,   and   we   we   we&#39;ve   looked   at   at   software   and   and   the   current   challenges   in   the   software   industry   the   same   way.   Um,   and   I&#39;m   like,   this   is   a   great   guy.   He&#39;s   it&#39;s   doing   interesting   things.   Um   I   went   back   to   Microsoft   and   I   was   thinking   about   it,   and   and   you   know,   at   this   time   Dave   was   Dave   was   already   uh   independent   and   he   had   uh   his   um   Boost   Consulting   uh   business.   Uh   it   was   called   Boost   Consulting   then.   Um   it   wasn&#39;t   Boost   Pro   yet.   Um   and   uh   and   I   thought,   you   know,   that&#39;d   be   a   great   life,   you   know.   And   I   I   kind   of   have   this   dream   of   travel   and   and   you   know,   it   it   would   be   nice   to   be   to   be   free   in   order   to   to   travel   and   and   work   remotely.   Um   uh   this   was   a   long   time   ago.   This   was   uh   like   this   was   the   2001   maybe.   Um   and   so   I   shot   Dave   an   email   uh   and   I   was   like,   hey,   you   know,   uh   if   uh   if   you   need   another   consultant,   let   me   know.   I&#39;m   not   particularly   attached   to   my   job   here   at   Microsoft.   Um   and   I   thought   nothing   of   it,   and   you   know,   several   months   later,   uh   I   got   an   email   back   from   from   Dave.   He&#39;s   like,   Are   you   still   interested   in   being   a   consultant?   And   I   was   like,   hell   yeah.   Um   quit   Microsoft,   like   post-haste,   uh,   and   started   working   with   Dave.   And   it   was   fantastic.   Um,   you   know,   because   uh   I   was   I   was   um   uh   a   nobody,   right?   I   couldn&#39;t   have   um   started   a   consulting   business   on   my   own.   I   I   didn&#39;t   have   clients,   I   didn&#39;t   have   any   sort   of   reputation   in   the   industry   or   anything   at   all.   So   so   I   got   to   ride   Dave&#39;s   coattails   a   bit.   Um,   and   and   you   know,   he   sent   me   work.   I   I   worked   away,   uh,   people   seemed   happy   with   the   work.   I   enjoyed   it.   Uh,   a   lot   of   it   was   um   either   um   uh   proprietary   development   for   companies   or   uh   open   source   development   that   was   sponsored   by   various   companies   that   wanted   a   lot   of   various   libraries   built.   Um   a   couple   of   the   Boost   libraries   uh   are   ones   that   I   built   uh   while   I   was   consulting   um   with   Dave.   And   I   got   very   active   in   um   uh   in   the   committee,   I   got   very   active   in   Boost.org   um   uh   and   on   on   the   on   the   mailing   lists   and   you   know   learned   all   sorts   of   stuff   about   library   development   from   all   sorts   of   smart   people.   Um   it   was   it   was   a   great   time.   Uh,   you   know,   I   I   I   I   got   a   chance   to   learn   a   ton   of   stuff   and   and   and   rub   elbows   with   a   lot   of   um   really   great   people.   Uh   and   and   so   that   um   that   was   a   fine   time   for   me.   And   then   eventually   I   did   make   myself   location   independent,   um,   not   right   away.   Um,   and   so   I   uh   I   worked,   I   did   a   lot   of   that   work   while   I   was   um   kind   of   knocking   about.   Um,   you   know,   I   was   either   uh   in   in   Australia   or   in   Thailand   or   in   Vietnam   or   New   Zealand   or   anywhere   in   the   US   or   Canada   or   you   know,   I   just   kind   of   knocked   around   and   would   uh   set   up   shop   for   uh   three,   four   months,   uh,   and   then   um   you   know   move   wherever   struck   my   fancy   and   do   it   over   again.   And   I   did   that   for   several   years   um   while   consulting.   That   was   that   was   great.   Um   eventually   uh   you   know   Dave   got   sick   of   doing   um   uh   you   know   running   a   business   and   got   a   good   offer,   like   an   offer   he   couldn&#39;t   refuse,   so   to   speak,   from   from   Apple   to   do   um   to   work   on   Swift,   right?   And   to   be   the   guy   the   person   steering   the   development   of   the   standard   library   for   for   the   Swift   programming   language.   And   so   Dave   um   you   know   decided   to   to   snatch   that   opportunity.   Um   I   would   have   too,   I   suppose.   And   um   uh   and   that   kind   of   left   me   high   and   dry.   I   was   like,   well,   I   was   subcontracting   to   this   guy,   and   now   he&#39;s   gone   and   got   himself   like   a   regular   nine   to   five.   What   the   hell   do   I   do?   Um   so   I   decided   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   I&#39;ll   give   it   a   go   as   uh   as   an   independent   consultant   now   rather   than   a   subcontractor.   Um   and   I   did   that   for   quite   a   while,   and   that   worked   out   pretty   well   for   me.   Um,   I   enjoyed   that   a   lot.   You   know,   a   lot   of   a   lot   of   the   clients   that   um   that   Dave   had   had,   um,   I   inherited.   So   that   was   great.   That   made   it   real   easy   for   me.   Um   uh   and   at   that   point   I   had   a   bunch   of   libraries   in   Boost.   I&#39;d   written   some   articles.   Some   people   knew,   you   know,   oh,   okay,   this   guy&#39;s   got   a   bit   of   a   reputation   as   a   C   programmer,   you   know,   hire   this   guy.   And   uh   and   that   was   that   was   all   wonderful.   It   was   terrific.   Uh   uh   I   loved   it.   Um,   I   had   a   um   uh   a   really   brief   stint   uh   when   I   came   back   from   my   travels   um   at   a   uh   a   startup   called   Intentional   Software,   um,   which   is   a   a   programming   uh   they   it   was   started   by   Charles   Simonyi,   which   um,   you   know,   if   if   folks   don&#39;t   know,   Charles   Simonyi,   he   is   um   one   of   this   Microsoft   ultra   rich   ultra-rich   people.   He   he   wrote   Excel.   Uh   I   think   he   wrote   Word.   Um   and   so   he   started   this   company   about   um,   you   know,   he   wanted   to   popularize   uh   what   he   was   calling   intentional   programming,   which   um   is   uh   is   basically   the   idea   of   like   you   know   uh   domain-specific   languages,   um,   you   know,   uh   building   a   little   workbench   um   uh   on   which   you   can   develop   domain-specific   languages   to   target   various   um   specific   applications.   Um   which   uh   is   kind   of   a   cool   idea.   Um   but   uh   you   know   when   when   when   you   have   as   much   money   as   Charles   Simonier   does,   um   then   there   is   no   real   pressure   to   ever   ship   a   product.   Um   and   so   they   just   kind   of   like   spun   their   wheels   endlessly,   rewriting   the   uh   the   engine.   And   you   know,   after   after   I   think   five   months,   I   lasted   five   months   there.   After   that,   I   was   like,   okay,   that&#39;s   this   is   crazy.   Um   I   actually   I   actually   want   to   deliver   value.   Um   so   so   I   quit   that   and   um   and   and   and   then   then   I   went   uh   back   to   consulting   and   uh   eventually   uh   got   myself   um   you   know   a   family   and   decided   I   needed   a   steady   job.   So   I   went   and   worked   at   Facebook.   And   you   know,   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   how   I   ended   up   there.   That&#39;s   uh   that&#39;s   my   story.   Um   yeah,   um   would   love   to   consult   again.   That   would   be   that   was   a   a   great,   great   time.   Um   uh   but   um   you   know   working   in   a   company   like   NVIDIA   has   its   um   has   its   perks,   you   know.   I   get   to   work   uh   do   bigger   things   um   because   there&#39;s   um   there&#39;s   there&#39;s   more   will,   uh   there&#39;s   more   learn   long-term   vision,   there&#39;s   more   funding   um   and   more   resources,   there&#39;s   more   smart   people   that   I   get   to   interact   with.   Um   and   so   uh,   you   know,   like   the   work   that   I&#39;m   doing   right   now,   for   instance,   like   trying   to   um   trying   to   give   C   ⁇   um   an   async   programming   model.   Um   that&#39;s   work   that   I,   you   know,   I   would   have   to   either   not   do   that   or   do   it   pro   bono   in   my   spare   time   if   if   I   were   still   consulting.   Like   nobody   would   be   paying   me   to   do   that.   Um   so   I   consider   myself   actually   really   lucky   right   now   to   be   um   not   a   consultant   and   working   at   a   company   like   NVIDIA.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>19:38</time>
      <p>
          It&#39;s   interesting,   it   seems   to   I,   you   know,   I   sort   of   I   entered   the   C   world   in   about   2010   and   2011.   And   at   that   time,   it   seemed   to   me   like   there   were   a   lot   more   people   who   were   freelancers   who   were   doing   consulting.   And   over   the   course   of   the   last   10   years,   um,   it   seems   like   pretty   much   all   of   the   people   who   were   who   were   freelancers   have   been   gobbled   up   by   some   company.   And   it   seems   like   it&#39;s   sort   of   like   it&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   uh   it&#39;s   this   lost   era   where   we   had   a   lot   of   you   know   that   that   2000   to   2010   era   of   boost   development,   and   we   had   a   lot   of   folks   that   were   um   you   know   working   as   freelancers   as   consultants   and   uh   or   at   you   know   small   companies.   And   I&#39;m   I&#39;m   sure   that   I&#39;m   sure   that   there   is   still   plenty   of   freelancers   out   there,   but   it   seems   like   it   seems   like   that   was   in   some   ways   a   different   time.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>20:29</time>
      <p>
          Um   yeah,   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   that&#39;s   if   that&#39;s   that   that&#39;s   my   perception   also,   but   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   it&#39;s   an   accurate   perception.   I   have   no   way   of   actually   figuring   out   whether   there   are   fewer   consultants   now   than   there   were   then.   Um   it   could   also   be   um,   you   know,   uh   you   know,   this   is   like   a   station   in   life.   Um,   you   know,   when   when   you&#39;re   in   your   20s   and   you   don&#39;t   have   any   responsibilities,   um,   you   know,   the   idea   of   becoming   a   freelance   consultant   is   really   appealing.   Uh   it   doesn&#39;t   matter   if   your   income   stream   dries   up   um   for   a   certain   amount   of   time.   Um   but   um,   you   know,   and   then   and   you   could,   it&#39;s   all   right   if   you   have   to   pay   for   your   own   insurance,   um,   health   insurance,   if   you&#39;re   if   you&#39;re   in   the   US   and   you   have   to   do   such   things,   um   then   um   that&#39;s   fine.   Uh   but   uh   you   know   as   as   people   get   older,   they   they   end   up   getting   more   responsibilities,   families,   house,   that   sort   of   thing.   And   and   then   the   idea   of   having   an   uneven   or   uncertain   income   stream   is   is   far   less   appealing.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>21:32</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   You   know,   it&#39;s   sort   of   that   that   makes   me   think   of   another   question,   which   is   at   what   point   did   um   did   the   you   know,   software   engineering   today,   being   a   software   engineer   is   you   know   considered   like   a   really   good   job.   It&#39;s   a   really   high   paying   job.   I   like   was   that   that   couldn&#39;t   have   always   been   the   case.   You   know,   at   what   point   did   it   go   from   being,   you   know,   a   pretty   good   white   collar   job   to   being   one   of   the   one   of   the   jobs   that   a   lot   of   people?   IO2   because   it&#39;s   so   highly   valued   and   uh   you   know   well   compensated.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>22:07</time>
      <p>
          I   mean   that&#39;s   that&#39;s   a   good   question.   Um   I   mean   it   certainly   wasn&#39;t   the   case   when   I   graduated   college.   Um   I   remember   my   my   starting   salary   at   Microsoft   was   about   40k   um   which   you   know   is   is   not   that   much.   Um   you   know   um   and   it   wasn&#39;t   even   all   that   much   at   the   time.   Um   I   mean   it   was   okay   at   the   time,   but   it   wasn&#39;t   like   wow.   Uh   so   so   I   think   what   uh   what   happened   was   um   the   um   the   internet   I   think   I   think   I   think   the   internet   and   like   the   first   bubble   um   and   all   of   these   uh   people   that   suddenly   made   themselves   um   super   rich   in   the   Bay   Area   um   from   the   first   bubble.   Um   all   of   a   sudden   um   tech   stock   um   became   a   hot   commodity.   Um   people   can   make   a   lot   of   money   off   of   it.   And   and   that   seems   to   have   driven   a   lot   of   the   um   um   software   economy.   Um   and   uh   and   yeah,   so   now   now   programmers   um   you   know   get   um   are   are   are   highly   in   demand   um   and   get   compensated   really   generously.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>23:21</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   I   mean   I   definitely   know   like   when   I   I   I   grew   up   in   the   90s   and   the   you   know   2000   to   2010,   and   I   certainly   had   no   notion   at   the   time   of   of   software   engineer   being   you   know   a   high   paying   job   or   you   know,   like   a   good   job.   Um   and   even   when   I   like   got   into   the   industry   at   first,   I   didn&#39;t   realize   that   like   it   was   a   really   good   a   good   place   to   be.   It   was   just   like   it   was   something   that   I   was   really   passionate   about.   Um   yeah,   that&#39;s   interesting.   I,   you   know,   we   we   just   I   guess   we   just   take   it   for   granted   these   days,   but   that&#39;s   it&#39;s   not   always   been   that   way.   Um   yeah.   That&#39;s   like   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   interesting   to   have   heard   Otto   earlier   say   that   you   know,   back   in   the   day   that   your   dad   didn&#39;t   want   you   to   be   a   computer   programmer,   because   of   course,   like   it   was   that   wasn&#39;t   even   a   uh   it   was   not   even   just   that   it   was   not   a   job   that   people   thought   was   high   paid,   it   was   not   not   even   something   that   people   thought   was   a   job.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>24:16</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   you   couldn&#39;t   even   take   it   at   university   as   a   subject,   you   had   to   take   math.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>24:22</time>
      <p>
          Regarding   the   uh   the   amount   of   pay   that   the   system   programmers   get,   it   it   can   be   tracked   to   the   reliance   that   industry   has   on   computers.   In   my   days,   the   uh   the   use   of   computers   was   not   considered   a   critical   uh   element   within   a   uh   a   corporation   operation.   It   was   it   became   essential,   but   its   growth   was   uh   gradual,   and   as   the   growth   became   more   and   more,   and   the   dependence   on   computers   became   more   and   more,   I   think   the   salaries   of   the   supporting   personnel,   technology,   technical   personnel   grew   as   well.   And   it   did   it   really   grew   as   the   dependence   on   computers   grew.   Uh   in   today&#39;s   world,   people   can&#39;t   envision   what   would   happen   if   there   was   no   computers.   And   in   my   time,   it   was   considered   a   uh   an   overhead   expense,   and   it   was   not   considered   that   essential.   Uh,   that&#39;s   in   the   early   days,   okay?   Uh   but   it   it   grew   uh   as   the   dependence   on   it   grew,   and   so   did   the   salaries   grow.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>25:28</time>
      <p>
          I   remember   you   telling   me   in   the   early   days   companies   would   buy   these   enormous   computers   and   have   them   in   display   rooms   so   that   people   could   see   them,   um   uh   just   to   impress   like   investors   and   and   clients   and   such.   And   you   know,   they   wouldn&#39;t   even   like   be   using   them   to   do   anything.   They   just   have   like   blinking   lights   and   the   the   whirling   tapes   and   everything   like   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>25:51</time>
      <p>
          And   you   know,   to   that   point,   uh   one   of   my   first   accounts   when   I   worked   for   Univac   with   a   Japanese   import-export   company   called   Mitsui.   They   were   located   on   Fifth   Avenue,   Midtown   Manhattan.   And   uh   I   was   the   account   rep   on   it,   the   technician   to   help   install   the   product.   And   uh   they   had   a   ground   floor   operation   where   their   computer   site,   like   so   many   others,   were   glass   enclosed   and   a   raised   platform,   drop   ceiling.   Uh,   a   it   occupied   half   the   floor,   the   bottom   floor.   The   other   half   was   on   the   other   side   of   the   aisle.   Both   was   glass   enclosed.   It   was   all   accountants   with   abacuses.   And   uh   the   first   tour   I   got   from   uh   this   gentleman   who   was   my   counterpart.   We   walked   down   his   aisle.   On   the   left   was   this   beautiful   computer   installation   we   just   installed,   and   on   the   right   was   this   glass-enclosed   accounting   room   with   at   least   50   to   75   accountants   using   impactuses.   And   I   asked   him,   I   says,   Matil,   uh   who   what   exactly   are   these   guys   doing?   He   says,   Every   piece   of   output   that   comes   out   of   this   side,   he   points   to   the   computer,   is   checked   by   this   side,   which   is   I   wish   I   had   a   camera   to   take   a   picture   of   that   because   it   represents   the   entire   spectrum   of   accounting   today.   That   is   uh   that   was   that   was   what   was   interesting.   That&#39;s   hilarious.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:31</time>
      <p>
          We&#39;re   gonna   have   to   find   a   link   to   uh   some   sort   of   article   detailing   uh   oh   you&#39;re   gonna   have   a   lot   of   research   to   do   for   show   notes.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:39</time>
      <p>
          There&#39;s   like   at   least   10   things   that   I   counted   that   you&#39;re   gonna   have   to   link   to.   You&#39;re   like   you&#39;re   gonna   have   to   go   and   find   that   news   story   about   the   XYZ   stock   from   the   60s.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:49</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it   definitely   exists.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>27:50</time>
      <p>
          I   would   love   to   I   would   love   to   find   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>27:52</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   it&#39;s   gotta   be   on   the   Wayback   Machine   at   some   point.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>27:55</time>
      <p>
          Or   not   the   Wayback   Machine.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>27:58</time>
      <p>
          The   internet&#39;s   about   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>28:00</time>
      <p>
          I   was   just   actually   thinking   that.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>28:01</time>
      <p>
          I   was   like,   You   might   have   to   go   look   at   like   micro   fees   or   something.   Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>28:06</time>
      <p>
          Just   to   warn   you   guys   that   there   are   other   articles.   Okay,   we   there   were   many   mistakes   made   on   the   on   the   ticker.   Well,   not   by   my   computer,   by   the   way,   not   by   my   program,   but   this   is   false   transactions   that   came   out   that   they   they   took   exception   to   that   caused   a   lot   of   excitement.   So   there   was   many   of   this   type   of   situation,   not   as   bad   as   mine,   but   there   were   many   mistakes   made   on   the   ticker   that   were   corrected   almost   immediately   on   a   ticker.   So   that   I&#39;m   sure   got   some   uh   some   press   as   well.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>28:39</time>
      <p>
          Would   we   be   looking   at   like   what   Washington,   um,   the   uh   um   uh   uh   the   journal?   Is   that   it?
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>28:46</time>
      <p>
          The   Wall   Street   Journal   is   that   what   Wall   Street   Journal,   if   you   go   back   and   track   it,   you   should   you   should   find   it   there.   They   would   be   the   ones   who   would   blow   it   up   the   best.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>28:55</time>
      <p>
          And   when   when   when   was   that?   That   was   uh   what   year   was   that,   I   think.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>29:00</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   let&#39;s   see.   That   was   uh   somewhere   between   67   and   70.   It&#39;s   late   late   60s.   Uh   I   would   think   it   was   after   we   had   the   uh   machine   installed   and   running,   so   I   would   think   it&#39;s   1969,   would   be   my   guess.   But   there   was   hell   effect   on   that   one,   I&#39;ll   tell   you.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:22</time>
      <p>
          If   I   f   if   I   find   uh   the   exact   uh   some   sort   of   do   you   think   it   was   your   name   in   the   paper   when   the   story   came   out,   or   no?   No,   no,   okay.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>29:30</time>
      <p>
          They   basically   said   it   was   a   computer   error.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>29:32</time>
      <p>
          The   word   bug   actually   actually   was   actually   used.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>29:36</time>
      <p>
          I   don&#39;t   know   if   they   said   bug.   It   was   could   be   a   a   mistake   in   the   code.   I   mean,   whatever   they   said   at   that   time.   I   don&#39;t   think   that&#39;s   a   good   idea.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>29:43</time>
      <p>
          When   that   actually   entered   the   lexicon.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>29:45</time>
      <p>
          I   I   believe   that   bug   was   coined   uh   World   War   II   or   post-World   War   II.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>29:50</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   Grace   Hopper,   the   Mark   I,   right?   The   um   yeah,   the   moth   that   got   stuck   in   the   electro   mechanical   relay.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>29:57</time>
      <p>
          Is   that   a   true   story?   I&#39;ve   heard   I&#39;ve   heard   that,   and   then   some   people   say   that   that&#39;s   a   story   that   is   made   up.   Um,   is   it   true?   Is   it   not?
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>30:06</time>
      <p>
          You   can   go   to   a   museum   and   see   the   actual   moth,   the   first   bug.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>30:10</time>
      <p>
          Yeah,   you   can.   Yeah,   I   think   it&#39;s   at   the   computer   history   museum.   And   uh   it&#39;s   certainly,   certainly   at   the   very   least,   it&#39;s   from   that   era.   That   the   term&#39;s   from   that   era.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:20</time>
      <p>
          I   have   a   good   I   have   a   good   last   question   um   uh   to   finish   on.   So   you   mentioned   too,   Otto,   that   uh   it   was   not   just   Eric   that   ended   up,   or   maybe   Eric,   you   were   mentioning   that   it   was   you   had   a   sister.   Someone   mentioned   another   another   offspring   that   also   ended   up.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>30:36</time>
      <p>
          My   my   daughter,   and   Eric&#39;s   sister.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>30:39</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.   And   do   we   wanna   do   we   I&#39;m   not   sure   if   it&#39;s   a   dangerous   question   to   ask   who   turned   uh   who   turned   out   better?   Uh   you   know,   you   bought   the   computer,   you   had   two   kids.   Uh   one   one   father.   Better   is   a   relative   term.   Better   is   a   relative   term.   Uh   uh   expert   politician   answered   from   a   clearly   experienced   parent.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>30:59</time>
      <p>
          Uh   we   we   do   very   different   things   in   in   computers.   Um   uh   Christine   is   is   mostly   um   um   she   does   a   lot   of   uh   administration   and   and   troubleshooting,   that   sort   of   thing.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:12</time>
      <p>
          Okay,   so   not   on   the   not   on   the   code   writing   side.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>31:15</time>
      <p>
          No,   she&#39;s   never   gotten   into   writing   code.   I&#39;ve   encouraged   her   to,   but   um,   but   she   she   doesn&#39;t   seem   to   be   all   that   interested   in   it.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:22</time>
      <p>
          Did   she   ever   play   around   with   uh   the   computer   that   you   were   you   know   doing   uh   what   is   it,   what   was   it   called?
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>31:28</time>
      <p>
          Uh   that   was   the   XT.   IBM   XT.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:32</time>
      <p>
          The   IBM   XT.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>31:33</time>
      <p>
          Did   she   mess   around   with   it   as   a   kid   or   she   messed   around   with   playing   the   games   like   Eric   did?   Uh   Pong   was   a   big   one   for   her,   and   what   was   the   other   one?   Uh   a   couple   other   very   basic   uh   games   at   that   time.   Interesting.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>31:48</time>
      <p>
          I   don&#39;t   actually   have   recollection   of   my   sister   uh   in   front   of   the   uh   the   PC   playing   games.
      </p>

        <cite>Otto Niebler</cite>
      <time>31:54</time>
      <p>
          Not   like   you.   Not   like   you.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>31:56</time>
      <p>
          Yeah.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>31:59</time>
      <p>
          Interesting.   Well,   maybe   in   some   uh   at   the   five-year   anniversary   or   something,   we&#39;ll   we&#39;ll   do   uh,   you   know,   we   we&#39;ve   got   to   we&#39;re   gonna   have   to   put   together   some   sort   of   bingo   board.   We&#39;ve   just   checked   off   the   father-son   podcast.   We&#39;ll   have   to   get   the   uh   the   brother-sister   podcast   at   some   point.   Someone   actually,   here   we   go.   Listener   out   there,   if   you&#39;re   interested   in   making   us   a   bingo   board,   uh,   we   will   we   will   be   taking   submissions   and   at   some   point   we   will   we&#39;ll   choose   a   bingo   board   and   we&#39;ll   make   our   way   through   them.   Um   but   yeah,   this   has   been   an   absolute   blast   for   me.   Uh   yeah,   definitely.   I   think   this   a   ton   of   our   listeners   are   gonna   have,   or   the   listener   will   have   a   fantastic   time.   Yeah,   I   I   these   kinds   of   stories   are   just   it   makes   my   mind   sort   of   bend.   Um,   you   know,   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   every   once   in   a   while   you   listen   to   CPP   cast,   you   hear   Jason   talk   about   his,   you   know,   uh   PDP   8   or   whatever   assembly   that,   you   know,   but   like   this   is   even   going   back,   this   is   going   back   literally   to   before   I   think   the   first   year   that   people   like   what&#39;s   the   earliest   language?   Is   it   Fortran?   And   like   I   think   that   language   is   credited   with   like   is   it   1955   or   1957?   So   to   go   back   all   the   way   to   the   beginning   of   that   is   it&#39;s   super,   super   interesting   to   hear   sort   of   what   it   was   like   back   then   because   it&#39;s   it&#39;s   so   unfathomable.   You   know,   my   first   computer   was   you   know   in   elementary   school,   and   we   were   already   doing   graphs   and   Excel   and   like   we   were   word   processing,   and   it   was   it   was   already   pretty   pretty   good   situation.   There   was   definitely   no   punch   cards.   Um   it&#39;ll   be   interesting   to   see.   Yeah,   what   um   I&#39;m   sure   there&#39;s   some   folks   out   that   listen   too   that   have   similar   sort   of   whether   they&#39;re   Wall   Street   stories   or   other   stories.   Um   back   in   the   day.   Yeah,   a   million,   a   million   dollars,   X,   Y,   Z.   Um   am   I   glad   that   I   only   write   like   back   end   code   and   uh   a   bug   for   me   is   just   like   some   manifestation   and   some   Python   code   or   something   like   that.   Uh   I   definitely   don&#39;t   have   newspaper   articles   being   written.
      </p>

        <cite>Bryce</cite>
      <time>33:57</time>
      <p>
          I   I   was   um   I   I   was   the   person   that   like   filed   the   bug   on   libstdd   C   for   them   to   make   the   ABI   breaking   change   to   std   list   in   C11,   the   one   where   they   made   it   for   one   release   and   then   like   very   rapidly   put   out   another   point   release   to   un   ABI   break   it.   That&#39;s   like   the   closest   I&#39;ve   I&#39;ve   come   to   doing   real   hard.
      </p>

        <cite>Eric Niebler</cite>
      <time>34:22</time>
      <p>
          In   for   me.   In   for   me,   yes.   Well,   this   has   been   an   absolute   blast.   This   was   this   is   really   fun.   So   much   fun.
      </p>

        <cite>Conor</cite>
      <time>34:29</time>
      <p>
          Thanks   for   listening.   We   hope   you   enjoyed   and   have   a   great   day.
      </p>