The Magick Kitchen Podcast

S9E3 - Walking the Poison Path with Coby Michael

• Season 9 • Episode 3

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In this episode of The Magick Kitchen Podcast, we journey into the enigmatic realm of the Poison Path with Coby Michael, esteemed author of The Poison Path Herbal. Coby unveils the esoteric traditions of working with potent plant allies—those often shrouded in mystery and caution—highlighting their roles in magic, healing, and spiritual transformation.

Our conversation delves into the historical and ritualistic significance of these powerful botanicals, exploring how they have been revered and utilized by practitioners throughout the ages. Coby emphasizes the importance of respectful engagement and informed practice when navigating this path, offering insights into the spiritual connections and visionary experiences these plants can facilitate.

Whether you're a seasoned herbalist or a curious seeker, this episode invites you to explore the profound wisdom and transformative potential that lies within the Poison Path.

Explore More:

To delve deeper into Coby Michael's work, including his writings, classes, and offerings, visit The Poisoner's Apothecary.

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Follow Elyse @seekingnumina, & join Seekers of the Sacred Wild, a free group with weekly live lessons and readings. Join upcoming pilgrimages and container courses here: www.elysewelles.com/2026Immersive

Check out Leandra's uniquely hand-blended teas at The Witchwood Teahouse! www.thewitchwoodteahouse.com

Support on Patreon here for book club, a ritual library, and exclusive videos!



SPEAKER_03:

This time in the Magic Kitchen, we are joined by author Coby Michael. I'm Leandra Witchwood. And I'm Elise Wells. And welcome to the Magic Kitchen podcast, where we talk about magic, kitchen witchcraft, herbs, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_04:

The Magic Kitchen Podcast is funded and supported by thewitchwoodteahouse.com, offering a variety of hand-blended loose leaf teas, as well as loose herbs for all of your ritual, spell work, wellness, and everyday enjoyment needs. If you would like to support this podcast while sipping a great cup of tea, head over to thewitchwoodteahouse.com and find the magic that's in store for you.

SPEAKER_03:

Kobe is an occult herbalist and magical practitioner who teaches about the ritual use of poisonous and psychoactive plants. The author of The Poison Path Herbal and co-author of Leo Witch, he owns and operates The Poisoner's Apothecary, an online shop and educational resource for The Poison Path. He has been blogging since 2016 and has written articles for Elrond, The Poisoner's Guild, This Witch Magazine, and The Witch's Almanac. The Poison Path Grimoire what the wheel of the year is one more goddamn time. Like this book is for you. Like you will not have to endure that. You can just dive deep. Like anyone who's like, I know everything there is to know about poison path plants. Like you need this book because I guarantee there's at least one thing that's going to get you. Right. Yeah. Just excited for something new. It's so inspiring. It's such a good book. Like, sorry, I could really rave. It was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm raving too, because I was reading this and I know a lot about The Poison Path. I know a lot about herbalism. I've been studying it for 20 something years. And I was like, oh, I've never heard of that. I got to go like research that a little bit more. And, you know, it's these kinds of books that I look forward to. The ones that really take me from what I thought I knew to, oh, crap, I need to know more about this. And that's what I love about this. And then you go really in detail of like creating those relationships with the path. that I think get overlooked in some books, kind of like skirted over, like, oh yeah, you just blow cinnamon out of your hand. I know I keep harping on that one, my listeners, but I hate that practice, just blowing cinnamon out your door. Like, I feel like it's so trivial and it doesn't really connect you with the spirit, the animism of the practice. And I think your book really taps into that, getting to know the plant before you start really working with it. So welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad to have you here. I've actually met you in person. We met at Temple Fest and I took one of your workshops there that was astonishing and I loved it and I had to have you on the podcast. So welcome.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_03:

The first thing I actually want to start with is why the Poison Path? Because I thought you did a really good job of sort of getting into that because I'm not a herbalist. My connection to plants is through land. So if it's not growing around me, and often, I don't know the name of the plant. I will have to spend time, because I live most of the year in Greece. I'm currently, as of recording this, we're recording it early in 2025. I am in the US. And then I lived in the Middle East as a kid. So there's just been a lot of biomes that I've spent time in. So I truly don't feel like I know individual plants the way I would like to. But those are the ones I tend to know is like if it's around me and I Google it in that moment and I feel really secure with my plant app, like that's my plant knowledge. So I went into this book as somebody who was like, let's see how this would serve that path of like more shamanistic land connection. And my notes are ridiculous because at first I wasn't sure if it was for me at all. But what you said in the beginning, like got me very hooked. You explained that Poison path plants, poison plants are specifically helpful for processing shadow work and releasing shame and fear and alchemizing those things. And you said something that really resonated with me. The shame and fear we are told to feel in response to our darker sides is the real shadow. And that was that for me. Like I was like, oh, that's exactly, like exactly. And I think that's why this, path calls to certain people is they're like, like self-work and this whole idea and like the, the spiritual movement at large of like self-improvement and like that need to always be better and all that. It actually can really just be an echo chamber of shame and fear again and again. And poison plants actually get us to truly alchemize that and recognize that we're kind of like spinning our wheels down here when like the waterfall is actually rushing from up there and poison plants are like, we're going to go up to that waterfall.

SPEAKER_01:

Very cool. I'm glad that that stuck out because that kind of became a pretty big theme of this book was the shadow work and kind of understanding poison as an energetic force, you know, sort of a concept, an alchemical concept of something that influences us and flows through us and is a means of, you expressing all sorts of different qualities. You know, we talk about like toxic relationships, toxic people, poisons that we put in our body that negatively affect us in different ways and all of these different metaphors for sort of what this this concept of poison is. So incorporating that into shadow work became a really big theme of this second book. So, yeah, for me, it was just kind of a realization that It is the shame and the fear that really caused the negative effects of what we consider the shadow. And I think that embodying those aspects more fully and really being able to sit with them and embrace them and, you know, in some cases going to that opposite end of the spectrum and and connecting with that darker side of ourselves that we're able to get a better sense and understanding for what it is and where it comes from. And then we kind of have the realization of that being not necessarily what defines us as people, maybe as a small part of ourselves, but we're able to kind of separate it a little bit more and allow the shadow to sort of sit across from us and have a conversation where we're both able to sort of express ourselves and come to a deeper understanding and i think that's really where like the goal of shadow work or the the inner integration or embracing the shadow kind of comes from and that's where the the healing comes from yeah

SPEAKER_04:

i've said that many many times it's like you need to be able to sit across the table and have a cup of tea with your shadow that you can integrate its lessons and see what superpower you developed through that shadow. Maybe your shadow was being quiet and being observant. So now you're able to observe people a little more detailed and you know what their intentions are before they express the intention type thing. Those little nuances you can pick up on. And yeah, I love the aspect of shadow work that you work with because it's so... real it's not fluff it's not something that oh we're going to do this journal prompt and we're all healed no we're going to dig in deep we're going to get comfortable with it and but to get through that you have to be uncomfortable kind of you have to go through that metaphor morphosis and i i really appreciate that

SPEAKER_01:

yeah definitely lots of different layers to shadow work and i think it's a an ongoing continuous work um never goes away. So it's always part of us and part of our learning and healing journey. And I think in a lot of cases, the shadow is, you know, it's a spiritual ally. It's where we can experience the most growth. And in a lot of cases, the shadow is kind of a protector that emerges as an aspect of ourself in response to trauma or in response to somebody telling us that something about ourselves is not good or not acceptable. And then we kind of let this little shadow persona out that then acts as a buffer to kind of protect what's the most precious to us inside. So I think partnering with the shadow and working with it in different ways that are empowering is really, really important.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

It's something you said about the poison path and shadow work kind of conjunctively. Is that the way to say that? Conjunctively? Sounds right. Sounds weird, but it sounds right. I know.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

conjunction junction what okay unrelated but that's what my brain said was the correct answer anyway something you said um about both was you this is your quote from page 19 because like i said i have so many notes on this book like it was really it like it meant so much to me to read this book you said you are the one who is in control even when you choose to surrender and it's That is, that is says so much. Like I want to put it on a poster next to my hang in there, baby. Like it's so powerful to remember and people forget it so often. Like I, I recently ran a course on the dark goddesses called the red thread. And I kind of just delved into like the 10 years of Inanna priestessing I've been doing and the connections that were the years of traveling different sacred sites between different goddesses, which put a pin in that. Cause I do want to ask you about Venus, the witch queen as well. In relation to that work, I do. But people will say to me like, oh, I'm being called by a dark goddess and I'm terrified because I don't want to do the shadow work. And I'm like, what are you afraid of? And they're like getting out of control or like instantly we start using like these more, I hate gendering things, but like the more masculine, like the logic, the rational, like they're afraid that like they'll lose control. You know, even the word control is like, kind of a word we have to relinquish on the spiritual path. We never have control. Leandra and I were just talking the other day about how... Actually, I might have even been talking about your book, how I could have never timed for my life this interview, reading this book, showing up today. For listeners, we're recording this the day I arrived from my three-day descent trip that I did in early January that I talked about back then. But And it's amazing how the path, when we surrender to it, will take us where we're supposed to go. And we do have to relinquish that control. And it is so terrifying. But actually, we are the one who's in control because we said yes to the surrender. So it's just a constant, like you said, it's never over. We're always spiraling back and we're, you know, coming back around to lessons. But we are in control of every experience because we've stepped that foot onto the path.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And you put in the almost next page, you talk about inviting the fates into your workings, into your circle, into your path, and how many practitioners find that dangerous. And I agreed with you when you said, no, they're already there. They've always been there. The fates, they're part of the path. I was like, yes, yes, yes. The catalyst for chaos is our catalyst for change. We can't change when we are complacent or we're comfortable there has to be that that washing machine effect that agitation so I love that you put that in there

SPEAKER_01:

yeah I think that you know healing is an important thing and I think that there's a time and a place for that and you know, part of this, this healing process and where we're at collectively and individually is, you know, there's a time to heal and a time to fight. And sometimes, you know, looking at it as, as surrendering and letting go of control should be a very like empowering and exhilarating thing. Like let the monster out, give it a chance to, you know, fully wreak havoc and, and, chaos and just let that really intense primal energy kind of flow out of you and flow through you. And, you know, knowing that you can always come back to center, just like, you know, when we go on a journey in meditation or, you know, different visualizations, like you are always able to find a way back. Like nobody is losing their connection to their physical body and just like wandering around out in the ethers in like a catatonic state for forever. So we always have that ability to kind of come back to center. So I think that it's important to kind of embody and exist in both of those extremes. And it's not until you're comfortable with doing that, that you're able to, you know, get a sense for all of the variation that exists in between those.

SPEAKER_04:

And you go on to talk about the Nightshade family and how their themes are of sex, death, and power. And later in that paragraph, you talk about how they are feminine and also their magic is subtle, sneaky, and sometimes sinister, but not in a malicious sense. I loved that. That was so perfect. It was so eloquent because it's true. They are sneaky. They don't always give you the full spectrum, the full perspective. And I think it's more of in a way of letting you take the journey so that you can go have that aha moment. Oh, it's been there the whole time type thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they're definitely, you know, sneaky in a sense of, you know, there's certain things about them that are seductive and attractive and that kind of draw you in. And that was what initially... um, piqued my interest in these plants was their, you know, their association to witchcraft and their different uses in, in spell work and all of the occult side of it. And it was like, that was kind of like the carrot at the end of the rope that they're like, you know, this is how we're going to get this guy's attention. And then further down the road, then you realize like all of these different, um, healing processes and shedding of old versions of yourself and, um, all of the work that they had in store, you know, when they initially enticed you in under one kind of pretense and then show up as these totally different kind of entities that have much more in store. Yeah,

SPEAKER_04:

that was certainly my experience with Belladonna going through a Belladonna ceremony. You know, I thought, oh, okay, it'll just be like a cool experience. You know, I'll see what happens. But it was, My experience with her when I was finally confronted with her true essence, she was terrifying, but so exhilarating and so beautiful. And it was just this moment of the calling was there. And it was finally like all the veils were pulled off of my eyes and I could see it all. But it's like that blip, that moment where you're like, ah, I get it. And then once you're out of that state, you're like, oh, wait, what did I get? What was that?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

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It is more than a course. It's a return. Join us at seekingnumina.com slash sacredwildpriestess or tap the link in the show notes. Early Bird ends June 10th. So I wanted to ask you to tell our listeners, this was like mind-blowing for me to learn about, tell us what entheogen really means. Because actually before you say that, people are thinking poison and they're like, okay, these plants are dangerous. But like people are ingesting poison consistently in this country, in the United States. Like there's over 300- Well, pharmaceuticals aside, there are over... Pharmaceuticals for sure. But there are over 300 food grade, quote unquote, chemicals in the US that are not food grade anywhere else in the world. And they're just naturally in our food. And in the... I've been in the US now for a while, like through the holidays. And like my nails will not grow. I've never had that problem since living in Greece. My hair stopped growing. And I've been taking twice as much biotin as usual. Like there is like no nutrients in anything here. And... All that to say, people take poisons all the time. And I want people to realize that a lot of these plants aren't really that scary when we consider alcohol. Alcohol is horrible for our body. So just as we talk about these poison plants and the psychoactive effects and hallucinations and all the things that people might be really timid about, have an open mind because nothing is as bad for us as half the things we can buy in the grocery store. Okay, that's not true. Some of these plants can be quite dangerous if you're not responsible. But with responsible approaches, I think these plants are quite approachable. So yes, tell our listeners what entheogens actually are, because this was like...

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and on the word poison too, it's such a broad umbrella term for plants, substances, things that we come into contact with that have a really, really broad... spectrum of different effects. So poison doesn't always ultimately mean death or, you know, grievous bodily harm, you know, the very same substances or chemical compounds that make a plant, quote, poisonous are also where it derives its medicinal properties from. So there's all different ways that a plant could be considered poisonous. And there's been a, you know, 2,000-year-long conversation when we look at the earliest concepts of that in Greece with the pharmacon, in Latin with venenum, and then early modern medicine evolving in this conversation about what poison actually was. Was it this quantifiable thing that had the same effect on every single organism that it had? contact with was it this quantifiable thing that existed in all of these different plants and animals that was just like a you know a specific substance and then we realized that it's all of these other various different chemical actions you know so one poisonous plant might give you a really upset stomach or I'm not going to talk about that. That's too gross to talk about. A really upset stomach or another one might just like completely shut down your nervous system, stop your heart. So it's a very wide kind of broad spectrum of effects. But when it comes to the term entheogen, that was a term that was developed in the 1970s by a group of ethnobotanists, anthropologists that were studying the world's plant medicines. So a variety of different psychoactive plants with ceremonial use around the world. So they came up with this term entheogen to differentiate from the word psychedelic, which at the time had a lot of baggage associated with like the counterculture and hippies and things like that. So they wanted a more, I guess, like academically appropriate term. So they took two words from Greek, ancient Greek, which you'll probably know like way more about these words than I do. And I've never actually heard them pronounced out loud. So I don't know if I'll say them right, but we've got entheos and which has the same root of the word for deity or divine. So theos is to be inspired, possessed, connected to a deity, connected to the divine. And then the second word where we get the gen is genestai. G-E-N-E-N-E-N-E-N.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Great. So, and this is a random, no, you finish your thing. Sorry. I'll tell you a random thing about Greek pronunciation. That is so infuriating.

SPEAKER_01:

It just means to become filled with the divine, to create the divine within, to generate the divine within. But I even look at it as, you know, not so much like invoking a deity or a spirit, but also like, manifesting that already existing connection to the divine that we have within ourselves. So with it being entheogen, inward, it implies that sort of consumption of something that facilitates that connection or wakes it up.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So entheos is correct. Everything you said is true. It's also interesting because I think I think this was in your book. It might've been a different book I was reading concurrently. Cause I also was reading When the Drummers Were Women by Lane Redmond. And I was rereading Inanna, Lady of Largest Heart. And I was reading Spiral Dance while I was reading your book. So I was like, just jumping between all of them. And something else I was thinking about with Entheogen is Entheogen Enthusiasm, enthusiasmos, which is like the ancient Greek word for it, is the same thing. Was that in your book about

SPEAKER_01:

enthusiasm?

SPEAKER_03:

I

SPEAKER_01:

don't know if it was in this last one. It's in the one that I'm working on because I was literally just like rewriting it. Oh my gosh. in the collude in the conclusion um so yeah it has to do with like think of it as like poetic inspiration so it doesn't always have to be like connecting to a specific deity but just like that ecstasy that intoxication like shamanic sort of intensity and

SPEAKER_03:

it's like eudaimonia which is the same thing it's that you've been daemon is like spirit so you've been like eudaimonia like you've been imbued with the spirit because people like forget this but like every animism today is kind of a smaller version of what animism was for our ancestors it was so everything back then like if they got an idea for a new book The idea was sentient. They understood it to be its own spirit. Like there was just an emblematic understanding of spirit. And that's how they understood genius as well. It was like an external spirit. So it was not like we're just rediscovering. We're remembering what our ancestors always knew about plants, which is that they are a spirit that we're calling on to work with us when we engage in research. in any ritual with plants. And I think that's such a beautiful, it's crazy. Like I'm reading the word in English and I was like, I didn't see it. But yeah, enteos, like bringing the gods into you, the divine within. And then the other cool thing about the root word of like gen, anything that starts with gamma is actually a Y when it's the first, only when it's the first letter or when it's two of them in a row. So like enteos, I'm trying to think of a word that has two in a row. Like angisi is the word for guarantee and it's spelled like E gamma gamma. So it's an eng sound. But anyway, we're not here to learn how to pronounce Greek. But that word generate is the same word for generation, which is the same word in Greek as ancestor. So it literally, to me, this word is saying like Generate the divine within as your ancestors did. Like it's got so much in those root words.

SPEAKER_01:

The etymology of words is just like a really fascinating topic and linguistics in general. And I think that's how we can really draw a lot of this sort of. ancient understanding that, you know, comes from oral traditions, or maybe it's just something that wasn't written down or, you know, was lost through like picking apart these different word meanings and place names. And it can tell us a lot about like what the people actually believed about those associated things through looking at the words etymology. And that's something I like to, I guess, kind of reiterate when people ask you know different ways to connect to the plants of the poison path or to plants in general because we can sometimes like dehumanize them um and they just become you know ingredients or you know mix a plus b to get c so they're sort of reduced to their cause and effect but yeah Poisonous plants in particular have such a big personality and all of these characteristics and these dramatic stories that make it a lot easier for us to, like, anthropomorphize them. So I kind of equate it to, you know, working with any other spirit or deity. You know, how do you connect with the goddess Hecate? You know, you don't necessarily or... never have a physical piece of her that you are working with in that way to connect to and call upon her. We've got images, stories, invocations, all of these things that connect us mentally, emotionally, and spiritually to the concept and the construct that is Hecate that allow us to bring that spiritual essence into our presence. And I think that we can work with plants in very much the same way once we start to think about them again as like their own spiritual consciousness.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, I love that because it's, I think it's what's missing in most herbal practices right now. A lot of people just want to know what, what, the active ingredient is and the idea that we just use X, Y, Z, and we get results where the, and I stress this constantly, like we have to develop that relationship. We have to develop that understanding. And I mean, you, you tell, tell, you know, you get into the herbs, you get detailed into some of the plants like blackberry and, and, When I was reading, you know, the, the vampiric herbs and the, the idea that, you know, that there are taboos associated with these plants. Like maybe that's why we, we gravitate towards the idea of just superficially connecting with them and using them in the commodified way. And in thinking of that, it reminds me of like how I've interacted with Blackberry and how I've integral it is now to my path. It grows at every doorway in my house. And it did that naturally. I didn't ask it to. I mean, I did in a way. But my relationship with it, it shows up where it needs to. And you were talking about how it grabs energy, how it pulls energy. And absolutely, I've watched it do this. Anybody who shows up at my door with energy that I don't want in my home, I will see that bush grab them and hold on to them. And it's done it to me too. When I'm in an awkward state or I'm in a state that's not conducive to whatever I'm supposed to be doing, I will, I come, I'm not even touching that bush and somehow it grabs me. It'll scratch me or it'll grab my sweater or my clothes. And then I know, okay, stop. it's talking to me now. And I think that's the relationship we start building is when we start understanding these plants and their function, what they do for us on a spiritual level, on a medicinal level, on an energetic level.

SPEAKER_01:

And, you know, just looking at the word entheogen, you know, it implies that divine and spiritual connection. So I know that the term was in, specific reference to plants that we would consider psychoactive or psychedelic or hallucinogenic. And I think it's like a tightrope that we kind of walk because on the one hand, you know, the chemistry and the active constituents, it's very, very fascinating. And it's also very important, you know, when it comes to working with poisonous plants and knowing what they are capable of, how they should be applied safely, you different modalities of using them, what the dosages are, you know, so that's a really important part of getting this more intimate understanding on how to work with them safely. But then on the other side of that, like we have to remember as magical practitioners, spiritual practitioners, that they, you know, they have this chemical potency, but they also have this spiritual potency. And so working with something entheogenically doesn't always have to mean that we are ingesting it or that we are, you know, having these hallucinogenic experiences. And I think that sometimes people get sort of caught up on looking at that side of it versus sitting with the living plant or working with the flower essence or incorporating it into spell work in any of the myriad of other ways that we incorporate plants into spell work. It's almost like because they have this chemical potency that people become so fixated on that that they forget all of the other techniques that we have for connecting and working with plant spirits.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, for sure. And I think in that sense, we also forget that there's plants that we work with every single day that have that toxic capability, like nutmeg. Take too much nutmeg, you're going to have some trouble. Cinnamon, it's incredibly common. We have it in just about every baked good out there. But what happens when you take a tablespoon of cinnamon? It suddenly becomes this... you know, fight or flight system that erupts in the body because that's not what you're supposed to be doing with it. But even ginger, you know, it's considered a heal all, but take too much ginger. What happens? You're on fire. And like another personality within that plant erupts, another personality, another version of that plant becomes evident to us. And I think that's why it's so important to really get to know your plants and work with them, not just use them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. Even, you know, something that we use really commonly in herbal medicine, like elderberry, you know, fresh elderberry is poisonous. You know, if we burn the wood, it releases toxins that can be poisonous. And so that's where like a lot of these taboos come from too in folklore and like, you know, don't bring... elderwood into the house don't burn it or you're going to upset the spirit well there's a you know a chemical component that supports that too so that's always really interesting to find when there's that correlation between different superstitions and taboos connected to how to interact with the plant and then we find out that well you know there's also these these chemical reasons for it too

SPEAKER_04:

our ancestors knew they were dumb If you're a serious practitioner teetering on the cusp of progress, it's time to step into true spiritual mastery. This is your invitation to join the Gardens of the Mystic Initiation and Certification Program, where I offer practitioners like you advanced teachings and guided experiences. Sign up now at leandrawichwood.com or find the link in the show notes to learn more. Embrace your higher calling. Your journey awaits.

SPEAKER_03:

Speaking of things that are you know, we can look at folklore to see direct correlation to, you know, perhaps scientific fact. Um, one of the folklore pieces that you brought in that I really enjoyed was the devil's garden and the devil's acre. Um, if you can tell our listeners a bit about that, cause it actually, it's an ancient practicing in Greece that they still do in the villages, the devil's acre concept, not quite the same, but similar.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Very cool. I didn't know that there was an ancient Greek root to that. That's really awesome. So the idea and concept of that, and I think where it was introduced, at least to me, was through, I think it was Gemma Gary's work, The Devil's Dozen, where I think that the idea was introduced. But it was essentially this... acre or parcel of land that farmers would take out of their their fields or what they were using to plant their crops. And it would kind of be set aside and left wild, you know, sort of an offering to the devil being the folkloric devil or the spirits of the land. to appease them. So kind of saying like, you know, I'm going to set aside this little area for you over here in hopes that, you know, my crops do well and I'm not having like blight or, you know, other issues with drought and things like that. So it's kind of a liminal, offertory space. But then I kind of take that to be a place where we as green witches and plant practitioners can also connect with that, um, sort of adversarial spirit that exists in nature. That is sort of the, the wild and primal side.

SPEAKER_03:

So in ancient Greece, this wild and primal side, I always identify as pan. Like that's my, there's a million horn gods highly recommend horn, uh, Horned God of the Witches by Jason Mankey. For anyone who's like, hmm, horned gods? Hmm, Pan? Definitely, that's a great book. I also just started Magic at the Crossroads by Kate Freuler, and that is pretty good, too. I'm only one chapter in so far. Definitely more devil-based than, like, Pan-based. Anyway, all that to say, in ancient Greece, my family actually come from Arcadia, which was where Pan was traditionally worshipped. And in the village that my family's from, unfortunately... It's like not really possible to live there today unless you are just an old farmer because there's no internet. The electrics hit or miss. It runs out of water every July and August. You have to have your own reservoirs. Like it's a lot of things that make it kind of prohibitive to live there, which is a shame. But the very, very elderly who still live there actually still do a practice of offering to what they call the stihia, which the best translation of that word is like elementals. And they fear them, like they see them kind of as pan, but today they're, they wouldn't have, you know, they're Greek Orthodox, so they're not going to call it an ancient deity. But, but it's definitely the same practice, the same idea of like warding away bad energy by giving the first fruits to the Stikia traditionally at the spring, like at the water source for the town. So it would kind of serve two purposes. Like it would keep the stichia away from affecting your crops negatively. It also would say to the spring goddess, keep creating water because we need you. And then they have a devil's acre practice that's almost in reverse, which is if you don't clear your land before, depending who you ask, like they might say summer solstice. Nowadays, unfortunately, you really want to be doing that around Beltane because of climate change. But if you don't clear your land, you're inviting wildfire to eat your house is the belief. And unfortunately that's just true because brush burns fastest. So it's kind of like a reverse devil's acre that like, if you let your land run rampant, it will invite the quote unquote devil to your space. Do you have any questions you, I have, I have a few more about it. Go

SPEAKER_04:

run with it. We'll just keep conversing. I'm looking at all my marks and stuff. And like all of it, it's like, I'm looking at the, like the devil's acre and stuff like that. Yeah. Like my home week yard is the devil's acre. I just let it run wild. I let it do what it's going to do. And I have the greatest things like grow there, you know, like things I never planted grow there and it's great. So I'm all, I'm all for this devil's acre thing. I was doing it before I knew what it was. I

SPEAKER_01:

feel like in a lot of ways too, it can kind of act as sort of a crossroads. So a place to do spell work, to connect to different spirits that, you know, you don't have to find a crossroads or go to the middle of an intersection, but you've got sort of this uncultivated liminal space right in your garden or your backyard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And literally in my yard. So I have it landscaped so that I have pathways that are mowed. So one of them is literally a crossroad. And on one side, it's like my wormwood grows and the other side, it's just vegetables and stuff like that. And then one side, it's all my motherwort. And then on another side is I haven't planted anything. It's just wild. And that's my favorite place to sit is like in that crossword road right there. I

SPEAKER_03:

wanted to pick your brain because you said in the book that you've done some work, extensive work, you might have even said with Venus, the witch queen. And I'm a priestess of Inanna for 10 years now. And she's kind of led me on a journey throughout the world of like recognizing and understanding the ancient worship of aspects of her. And somehow, this is what I love about the spiritual path. There's always something new to learn. Somehow I've never come across this archetype or this aspect of Venus. If you could share with us a bit about that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it has to do with the medieval concept of the witch's Sabbath, right? And a lot of these locations that were connected to the Witch's Sabbath were also connected to the goddess Venus. So we've got the Venusburg Mountain, the Brocken Hill, which is where the witches were said to hold their Sabbaths. So I kind of consider Venus to be a very, I guess, dualistic goddess. So we've got like the... sort of the mainstream concepts of what it is to be a feminine deity, you know, being associated with love and beauty and abundance and fertility. But they also often have this very ferocious sort of like monstrous side to it. And we see it in the goddess Venus, you know, being very jealous in a lot of cases and punishing people, causing all sorts of, you know, chaos and almost like a, parallel to the goddess Eris or Discordia you know very jealous it's almost like they have a shadow

SPEAKER_04:

side

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely. Shadow side. Oh, you see it in the goddess Freyja in Norse cosmology, where, you know, not only is she associated with love and fertility and sex, but she's also a fierce battle goddess, you know, chooses half of the slain warriors to join her in Folkvangir and await the end of the world. So she's like building this army, you know, so they also show these very fierce qualities, which I think is important to kind of recognize that when it talks when it comes to talking about feminine energies so goddess when it or Venus when it comes to green witchcraft and plant magic she is kind of associated with the abundance of the earth in general so thereby you know connected to all sorts of plant work but we also have like that that poison path aspect where she is connected to the more baneful herbs as well. They used to have gardens of Venus, which were gardens that were full of different aphrodisiac and intoxicating herbs. But I also think that she has a connection to the garden of Hecate, which is where all the poisonous plants grow as well. And I think that it's something that really kind of manifests in the plants of the poison path, specifically members of the nightshade family. We often talk about their medicinal properties as far as like pain relief, muscle relaxation. They're potential for poisoning and being deadly. But then they're also, you know, very popularly used as aphrodisiacs and in love magic. So we have the datura or toluache in Mexico that is used in all sorts of different forms of love magic, from the benign to the manipulative. We've got henbane, another member of the nightshade family, which is known for its aphrodisiac properties. It's still used even in Europe today in mildly psychoactive aphrodisiac massage oils. It was burned in bathhouses to basically make people horny and lower their inhibitions so they could have a good time. Same thing with Deadly Nightshade, you know, used in beautification, said to dilate people's pupils to make them look more appealing. And so there's kind of like this element of, you know, glamour and seduction and what we would consider very like feminine Venusian side to a lot of these, you know, dark and poisonous plants. And I think that that's where... kind of the role and idea of the witch queen comes into you and sort of embodying both of these aspects.

SPEAKER_03:

I love it. And it's so true. Like I think what I've had to come to terms with, like it's been really good getting questions from people about dark goddess people with, because you forget sometimes you've been on the path a while, you sometimes forget like what those beginner questions are. And one of the big questions I get again and again is like, I want to live a joyful life. Why would I work with a dark goddess? I don't like that she's calling me because that means my life is going to get harder. And it's just never true. The more we work with our shadow, the more comfortable we get with who that shadow version of ourselves are, the more we get to be joyful because there's nothing holding us back. We've all done that thing where we're procrastinating. on something we know we have to do. Maybe it's sending an email, maybe it's calling that person, whatever it is. And you know that if you just go about your day and you're like, oh, great day, I'm going to go get Dunkin', get my coffee. You're going to be in the back of your mind, just, I really need to do that thing. I really need to do that thing. Whereas if you had just done the thing first, how much more would you enjoy that Dunkin' run or that hike or all the things that you want to treat yourself for become so much more enjoyable because you're of this darker side. And I think one of the darker sides of our shadow that gets kind of, it's been so demonized. Like even the fact that we call Venus a dark goddess, like it's, why dark? Why was that the word they used? It's first of all, it's colonization. You know, it's otherization. Second of all, it's patriarchal. It's saying other. It's pushing them into the wrong half of things because that's what patriarchy likes to do. It likes to dichotomize. And part of that quote unquote, darkness they want us to dichotomize and always want to avoid is the seductive. It is that ability to know the power you hold as a woman or as somebody who's embodying seduction because you can be any gender and do that. I think it's been demonized against women for so long because it was easy. Men could do whatever they wanted to women and say, oh, she, look, but she was pretty. That's not me. That's not on me. That's not her. Look how pretty she is. And one of the things that I think I'm most grateful for learning through my work with the Dark Goddesses is that we always are walking that thin sword that Poison represents so beautifully of, do we want to be destructive? Do we want to create? Do we want to be manipulative? Do we want to be gentle and forthcoming and authentic? And in a way, we can't know what that authenticity is if we've never experienced what that manipulation is. Even if it's, maybe we don't have to go through the manipulation phase, but being able to recognize ways we've been manipulated or manipulation has played a part in our path, it gives us that grounding and that frame of reference to then say, no, I'm gonna take my power back and actually being seductive, being sensual, which is not the same as sexual, by the way, everybody, knowing your power and your beauty is a choice. It's something we can decide to tap into and... And I love that poison is actually, it's so tied up in that path.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it teaches and expresses sort of the power that can be found in the shadow or in this concept of darkness. You know, and if we think of like all of these feminine deities that are considered dark goddesses and, you know, not only deities, but, you different apocryphal figures, other spirits in mythology. You know, we've got like Lilith, Medusa, Hecate, Kali. You know, these are all feminine presenting figures that embody empowerment, that embody ferocity, that have this independence, that are, you know, not submissive that stand in their own power and for that they are put into this category of dark goddesses that then we're taught to to be afraid of we're taught to be afraid of stepping into that power and you know taking things into our own hands and just like the um the spirit or demon or deity Lilith, you know, not submitting to Adam, you know, she was Adam's first wife and everything was supposed to go great. And then she was like, no, I'd rather do it this way. And then, you know, that whole, whole storyline and demonization of that kind of came out of her, you know, just, just speaking her, her mind and trying to live her truth. And so I think that we associate those things, those qualities with being negative or being corruptive and wanting to keep people submissive and going with the status quo and not disrupting society, not disrupting the patriarchal constructs that keep us kind of locked in these different gender roles. And that's where even like queer identity is so important and playing with these different ideas of masculinity and femininity is really like stepping into that power. And I think that we should associate that ability to walk in the shadow as something that is empowering and something that we should be proud of and honored to do. And, you know, not something that's going to cause us to be punished or to make our lives more difficult. You know, it's very much like stepping into kind of an Abrahamic, you know, transgressive sin equals punishment kind of a narrative, which is what we're trying to get out of.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, my gosh. Yes. Literally, like I can't even I can't even with sin. It doesn't exist. People sin is made up. It's straight up not real. People are always like, oh, but no, they're really sit with that. That's to listeners like that's my encouragement. Sit with that. Meditate on that. Journal on that. Really look for anything you could actually classify as an objective sin, because I guarantee you won't find it. It just doesn't exist. Even things that you're like, oh, murdering someone's wrong. Or there's things that you can be morally opposed to, but there is no all out and out sin. You know, like it just does not exist.

SPEAKER_04:

And you quote in your book about darkness. And I love this quote because it's, It's such a powerful message. Darkness is not the absence of light. It is the medium in which light exists. And that is so powerful, especially when people are thinking of this whole sin idea, this whole darkness, this descent. Yeah, it is. That's powerful because without darkness, light has no matrix to graft itself to. Before illumination, darkness holds infinite potential. Darkness is that void. It's that creative void. construct that we can pull from and create and i and i appreciate you putting that in there because it's a reminder that darkness is not the end it is not the obliteration of light it is light cannot exist without the darkness and so we have to take that into account when we're working with ourselves when we're working plants when we're working with people when we're going about our days in the world like there's always darkness but where is the opportunity there? Where's that opportunity for growth, for compassion, for deeper insight? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

For some, literally as you guys were like, as y'all were talking, a vulture just came, sat here, which we have vultures in the trees behind this house. So it's not like the crazy, but it is crazy that it's sat right in the window and tapped on the glass. Oh my gosh. And I've, I've, I brought a feather from one of these guys. I'm going to say it's him. Maybe someone of his friends probably. But I did bring a feather with me on the trip I just came back from and like connected with vulture pretty deep. So that was pretty nice. That

SPEAKER_04:

was really cool. In my tradition, we teach that vulture is the one that teaches us to digest. It teaches us to take in the toxin and transmute it into something valuable, something that we can digest. grow from so because what does the vulture do that takes the the dead thing eats it it takes in the bacteria that our physiology could not handle and it transmuted into growing feathers growing their babies growing themselves regeneration and nutrients so yeah that's that's a cool message

SPEAKER_03:

i honestly i see vulture as like one of my favorite spirit teachers because they they are one of the very, very, very, very few animals that are carbon positive. They do more for the environment by being alive. Like that just, to me, they're gods on wings. I mean, I really, really, really love them. So that was really special. They gave us a little, hello, I see you. I like what you're saying here. And the last thought on the dark goddesses bit of like, you know, the shadow. And there is a reason that all these dark goddesses are creatrixes. They're the ones who created life and they're the ones who are creating from where the womb or the dark. And that is where we have to go if we want to be creatrixes, too, if we want to regain that inspiration that we feel we've lost. OK, I have one last question and I promise we're going to let you go. You have really cool flying ointment recipes in here, like anybody interested in flying ointment, even if you're like, oh, I'm scared to make it. But like, what is it? This is a really, really, this is actually, I'm going to say it's the best resource I've found on flying ointments. The most practical one and the most in-depth. Could you tell our audience, you don't have to give it all away because I want them to get this book, but tell them some of these improvement techniques, like why you think flying ointments might not work as good today, as well today as they did in the past. Because that was like, I almost like broke my technology break to call Leandra about this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's kind of something that's been an ongoing investigation and experimentation. I think that the medieval flying ointment recipes sort of leave some important details out or just sort of assume that we... know how to do this already. But through the rules and practices of modern herbalism, modern salve making, I think a little bit of that has kind of been lost in translation. So I think that one big difference in the efficacy of medieval flying ointments had to do with the carrier oil or the fat that the plant material was being infused into. So typically we see it being in medieval recipes, some kind of pork lard or animal fat, which when applied topically is going to be absorbed much more effectively than something that is vegetable based or wax based. And if we kind of look at modern herbal formula Modern herbal formulas, a lot of those salves are things that are meant to kind of sit on the skin and treat things superficially. You know, they're not necessarily meant to be absorbed extremely deeply. So they'll be for things like muscle pain or different skin conditions or healing like scrapes and bruises and things that exist on the outer layer already. So when we're talking about absorption and penetration, those animal fats, those lipids are able to get into our skin much easier. I also think, and something that is sort of left out in the wording, but it also depends on how you read some of the medieval recipes is that in modern western herbalism you know we're typically making infused oils using dry plant material and kind of shy away from using fresh plant material because of the concern for for contamination and shelf life but i think when it comes to especially plants in the nightshade family um you know fresh plant material is going to be a little bit different chemically than dry plant material. And then knowing that the alkaloids, the active constituents in the plants of the nightshade family are more water soluble than they are oil soluble. Having that existing water content present in the fresh plant material when we make our infused oils or infuse the fresh plant material into pork lard, we're kind of getting that ability of the water to help transfer and extract the active constituents into the carrier a lot more effectively than it would be if it was dry plant material.

SPEAKER_03:

Brilliant. This is sort of like off, but kind of on the topic. Pseudo-archaeology, quote unquote, is like the idea that we should actually consult modern day experts. in order to excavate, like, you know, history. Like, for example, if we were excavating a potter's shop, we would call it a ceramics artist today to, like, see what that thing might be used for. And it's called pseudo-archaeology, interestingly, because mainstream archaeologists who are, it's quite a white man's club of privilege and money, they refuse to consult tradespeople. They refuse to see that they would have knowledge of value. And this just makes me think, like, if... if someone was able to get you in the archeology department of a medieval, you know, dig, what would we have learned more? Like, you know, like I'm sure we've all, witches tend to have this experience when we watch like historical only documentaries about archeology. It's always like so limiting. It's like, these two women were best friends or, you know, it's like, there's always something wrong. Like they don't see queer people. They don't see women as empowering. They don't believe the religion was real. So they won't consider it. And it just, it's, it's so fascinating to me that we can be learning so much more about our ancestors in just, I mean, when you describe it, it's like, Oh, duh. But you'd have to be a practitioner to figure those things out. And yeah, I'm just really grateful that you put that in the poison path grimoire for people to, to read. Cause I've never felt like making flying women. Cause everyone I've talked to was like, eh, it doesn't really work. And I'm like, okay, now I'm going to make it. Actually, I was gonna talk to Leandra about that. Like I was like, I'm gonna get together this weekend and like get some lard and make this

SPEAKER_04:

ourselves. Well, and we also have to remember that a lot of these practices were handed down from like master to apprentice. So there would be nuances that wouldn't be written down. They would just be verbally expressed. And maybe when they're writing it down, they didn't remember or they just wanted to admit that so that they didn't have their proprietary knowledge out there in the world and it's quite possible. But yeah, I like that idea of the pseudo-archaeology. Like what else could we learn from people who are doing the practice?

SPEAKER_03:

What else? Yeah. So frustrating. If anyone's like curious about that rabbit hole, I dive into it a lot more on Seeking Numena with Elise Wells solo podcast I run. And my favorite pseudo-archaeologist, he's not a perfect man, but his work is pretty good, is Graham Hancock. So get Google in if you're interested because it is really... Fascinating stuff.

SPEAKER_04:

This has been a great conversation. I

SPEAKER_03:

know.

SPEAKER_04:

There's so many more things I want to talk about, but we could be here for like four hours and I don't want to do that to you.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think I guess the last thing I have to say is. Something else that I think people will be really refreshed to read about is the vulnerability of the tales you tell. Like you give us some direct rituals, direct quotes, experiences, names changed for respect, but otherwise these are like verbatim experiences that you've had. And that's so valuable for people. And I just wanted to thank you for being vulnerable enough to say, okay, I'm going to put these in there because that's a hard choice to make as an author.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's my pleasure. I'm honored too. And, you know, I want to give people things that they can actually work with and, you know, not just speaking about things enigmatically or, you know, in a way that is mysterious and enticing and sells a lot of books, but like very real, you know, like it's a thing. It just, it's just a thing. So...

SPEAKER_03:

Fantastic. Thank you so much for

SPEAKER_04:

joining us. And tell everybody where they can find you. Any festivals or anything that you're doing or conferences or where are you showing up for us?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I will be at Convocation in Michigan at the end of February, presenting there. And then I'll also be at Sacred Space Conference in Maryland towards the end of March. Okay. You'll see me there.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm going to be there too, which is crazy because I'm never in the U.S. at that time of year.

SPEAKER_01:

I'll actually be doing my flying ointment presentation during the dead sleeps, which is kind of like a deep dive into, you know, picking apart the medieval recipes and looking at like The differences and also, you know, some of the non-poisonous and non-psychoactive ingredients that show up in the recipes and what they have in common and the role that they may have played. So that's a good

SPEAKER_04:

one. Okay, cool. Well, my talk is on the sacred ash. So creating like sacred fires and using sacred ash in different ways. So they kind of, I don't know, they might overlap a little bit in topic.

SPEAKER_01:

But they do because the ash is actually... an ingredient in the ointment that can help with the absorption so there's a whole lot of potential there when we talk about like ashes of specific trees and I

SPEAKER_03:

literally all the incense so I use Dittany of Crete as like my main communal like herb for this three-day descent I just did and I kept all the burnt ashes of it quote-unquote for no reason like my guides were like Don't forget the ashes. And I brought them home and I actually put them in the freezer because they stink. And I was like, that'll be the best place to keep them until I know what I'm supposed to do with them. Yeah. Sounds like I'm going to know what to do with them

SPEAKER_04:

now. You will. You will. Yeah. I have, I don't know if you can see it. There's a little tiny green bowl in the back there. That's where all my ash ends up. That's my ash bowl. So I'm excited for this. Yeah. We'll see you in March there. We got to get lunch or something. Yeah, we will.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome. You can also follow my work online at thepoisonersapothecary.com. I'm also on social media at Poisoners Apothecary. And I do have a Patreon that's focused on the poison path, patreon.com slash poisonersapothecary.

SPEAKER_03:

Awesome. Exciting. Thank you so much for being here. This was so good. Thank

SPEAKER_01:

you. Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Keep us posted on all future books because we will have you back. Yes. I want to read them.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. The third one that I'm just finishing the first manuscript for, so it'll probably be like a year or so before that's actually out, is the third or... I don't want to say final, but the third in the Poison Path series. So it's the Poison Path Oracle, divination, spirit communication, and trance work. So it's all. Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm excited for it already. So excited. Yeah. If you need endorsements or like, yeah, let us know. We're here. I

SPEAKER_01:

love that. Thank you. Awesome. Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Merry meet. Merry part. And marry me again.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you for joining us on the Magic Kitchen Podcast. Please visit my website, leandrawichwood.com, for news, information, and more episodes.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm Elise Wells, and I can be found at Seeking Numina on YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook, and seekingnumina.com. That's Seeking N-U-M-I-N-A.

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Leandra Wicthwood

Host
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Elyse Welles

Co-host

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