Doug Lemov, author of Teach Like a Champion and world-renowned educational speaker, shows us how we can use simple and effective techniques on the practice ground. He has worked with sports organisations as well as his crucial work in the classroom context to create better learning outcomes.
He's studied thousands of hours footage and observed teachers and coaches in wide range of situations. His work is a reflection of the best practice at work.
In this podcast, we discuss:
To find out more about Teach Like a Champion, go to
https://teachlikeachampion.com
Also, his sports blog
https://teachlikeachampion.com/category/blog/coaching-and-practice/
To find out more about this podcast and many others, go to Rugby Coach Weekly
Also, tap into the library of 4,000 pages of activities, advice, tactics and tips to help you become the best rugby coach you can be!
Doug Lemov, author of Teach Like a Champion and world-renowned educational speaker, shows us how we can use simple and effective techniques on the practice ground. He has worked with sports organisations as well as his crucial work in the classroom context to create better learning outcomes.
He's studied thousands of hours footage and observed teachers and coaches in wide range of situations. His work is a reflection of the best practice at work.
In this podcast, we discuss:
To find out more about Teach Like a Champion, go to
https://teachlikeachampion.com
Also, his sports blog
https://teachlikeachampion.com/category/blog/coaching-and-practice/
To find out more about this podcast and many others, go to Rugby Coach Weekly
Also, tap into the library of 4,000 pages of activities, advice, tactics and tips to help you become the best rugby coach you can be!
spk_0: 0:00
be the best rugby coach you Khun B. Welcome to rugby coach Weekly podcasts with head coach Dan Cottrell, where you learn hints and tips from the rugby coaching community. Let's get started. Hi, I'm Dan Cultural on Welcome to the Rugby coach Weekly podcast on this podcast. I was absolutely delighted to catch up with Dad Lam off who is an extremely busy man. So this is an introduction before I jump straight into the questions with Doug because I wanted to get as much out of him as possible. So who is Doug? He is the mastermind behind one of the go to teachers books teach like a champion. He's also very popular speaker course leader and blogger in the teaching world, both in the US and in the UK and across the world. Of course, his summary of how he develops his works comes from an excellent introduction to his block. It's called Welcome to field Notes on, he says. I've named this block to emphasise the idea that just about everything in my books is someone else's brilliant idea. My idea was just to write it down. I like the role of the Observer on DH think there's a lot of power in it. Think about it. There isn't a problem in teaching or learning that someone somewhere hasn't solved. We just need to find them on, take some field notes. Of course, he's very modest on DH. It takes an enormous amount of expertise and reflection toe identify these ideas and then turn them into the most relevant tools for teaching and coaching today. Now, that tells me that though he was really more interested in soccer before because his son was a very good soccer player, it says recently, university turn therapy. So he is more tuned to the game Robbie. But I think the lessons will cut across many different sports, and he also references his daughters playing netball. He did watch a recent European Cup came as he WAAS training, so he enjoys the game. But I think most of all what I'm going to get out of this or what I did get out of it because this is the introduction after the actual event, wass the enormous amount ofthe ways to encourage your players on DH, ask the right questions at the right time, know when to step in and step out anyway. Enough of my introduction. Let's get on with the podcast. So here I am, speaking to Doug and Doug is in cloudy New York, and I'm in Cloudy Wales. I'm delighted. Family are long board. You felt a great introduction to all the wonderful things he does. So I'm gonna jump straight in. Doug on. Ask the first question. We're Jeez, what are the differences you see between coaching on the field on teaching in the classroom? Well,
spk_1: 3:05
I'm sure the differences they're relatively are relatively obvious. There's a physical component to coaching on the field, but I think the similarities or what's most fascinating, which is so much of what we're trying to accomplish on the field is the craft of teaching. But people are asked to do it often with very little, very little guidance, very little back on. On howto have the challenges of coaching are essentially the count challenges of teaching. How do I know what the people have learned? What I've taught them? How do I speak to them in a way that motivates them? How do I communicate clearly? How do I ensure that ideas don't go in one ear and out the other inner transmitted to long term memory. And I think that, you know, I know that you're both and economics teacher and on a rugby coach, and I think that those struggles are are universal to anyone He do. Is he does either of those jobs. So maybe the primary differences that teachers often have conversations about these learning challenges and coaches less often. They're thrown into duty because they were great at the game and they love the game. But no one ever talks about how do another actual learning what I'm talking about.
spk_0: 4:16
So you're talking about committing to long term memory on sports is once we got to take in some tactical information on some knowledge in terms of what goes into the brain. Andi, I know there's no such thing as muscle memory. You have, however, how do you sort of see the difference there that you're trying to help players do things with their body as opposed to do things with their mind,
spk_1: 4:45
with both of their body and their minds? E. I think that I mean, I think it's really fascinating. I went. Teo did a short workshop here to ago in New Zealand For some coaches of the New Zealand Rugby Federation, and the guy before me was a cognitive scientist, and the first thing he said was the cognitive sciences learned more in the last 15 years. They didn't last 300 years combined, and one of things we've learned most about. I think it's working memory in the power of working memory on its limitations. So we're thinking so working memory is your compassion. Is that to problem? Solve and tio two critical thinking into assist assess a situation to make a decision. It's incredibly powerful, but it's incredibly limited, and it's very easily overloaded. And so I think what that means is that if it's overloaded, you buy one thing, you reduce its ability to do other things. So if I'm trying to keep an idea in my head, I'm trying to think about playing wider or I'm trying to think about my footwork actively. It causes other things to degrade. For example, perception, which is critical to decision making, an example from the world driving my if you try to take a right turn across traffic speaking about your country, by the way, the left you take a right turn across traffic. Well, adjusting the climate control system on your car stereo in your car, you're 10 times more likely to have an axe accident because having to concentrate on that task you're perceptive. Ability has degraded your ability to read the rate of the oncoming car reduces. And so the way around limits on working memory is long term memory. If we can get the knowledge of both action and thought the players have into their long term memory, then they can use it without degrading perception. But if we're trying to get them to think actively about some tactical or technical aspect of their performance while they're playing, it's like it's going to great other aspects of their performance. So getting things in long term memory is, I think, a hugely under a vast tract of both teaching and coaching that we've recently come to recognise, and it's it's it's not automatic, it's easier said than done. And I was just talking to a group of coaches from a professional academy of one of the professional clubs, professional soccer clubs here in the U. S. We're talking about the power of retrieval practise that there's almost nothing you can learn and put into long term memory in a single iteration or even in a week. And that's interesting because almost every club plans training sessions in one week intervals because their period there worrying about the period isation of full of training Lo's anyway. And so they map out the week according to when they want a heavy load for training when they want a light load and then they throw in the UN Here's the Here's the top of the wall. Talk about tactically or they're planning a topic that will help them in the match on Saturday. And so there. They may get a bump for the match on Saturday, but players are unlikely to t information in the long run. So
spk_0: 7:51
if you put it together so we can use a general thing off, say, passing, which basketball will be soccer and many others talking many other sports. So if you were planning out your season and you said this week, we're going to do passing on one element it you'll see also saying, I mean this is I understand this as well. By the end of the week, they won't have learned passing, they would have done some training, which will include some passing what you suggest the countries to try and make that process more effective.
spk_1: 8:26
Yeah, I think the trickiest thing is that what players are able to do at the end of the week in terms of passing, they will. They may be very successful, and you may say, Well, they really got it. But as soon as they walk off the field, feel they will begin to forget and forgetting is forgetting is a ruthless and tireless enemy, and by the next day they will remember a fraction of what they appear to be a ble to do the day before and when the match day rolls around. Three days later, you will, at halftime, be shouting at them. I thought we talked about passing all week because their competency at the end at the end of training is an illusion. So I think that you can actually look us up on the Internet for getting curves are fascinating. They actually map how quickly people forget things on you and I, and everyone listened. This has for gotten almost everything we've learned in our lives. If you doubt me. Have Children wait 15 years and try and help them with their history, maths or or or or side? So I mean, I don't mean that metaphorically. I mean that literally. We've forgotten almost everything you find in our last because we don't do retrieval practise, which is coming back to an idea after a period of forgetting. So if I wanted players to master their passing for the long term, so I didn't have to come back and say Guys, I thought we talked about passing. He forgot everything we've learned about passing. I would energy sit during one week, say maybe I'd introduce it on Monday, come back to it on Wednesday, then go on to a different topic on Friday and come back to it as they've begun to forget it had been distracted by the new topics that we're talking about. We're talking about defending whatever it is that come back to it on Wednesday, when players have to struggle more to remember it and the deliberate difficulty that you serve it. The additional struggling, trying to remember it causes them to encode the memory better, and then it would want to come back to it again a few days later, maybe a slightly longer interval this time. Think the data on forgetting suggested. If I gradually increase the intervals between retrieval, which is coming back to something that I previously learned to relearn it, it's encoded even better. So that would imply that I would come at once, plan out passing over, let's say a 4 to 6 week unit, which I do it. We do it three or four times intensively to really get the concept down in the first few days. But then I come back to two days later and three days later than four days later. Two on. And it's that ladder process of coming back turn after forgetting that will drive into under memory. And by the way, it doesn't have to be, of course, session. I'm passing. It could be that in the midst of a session on defending, I said, Let's pause. We've won the ball. Let's rock. Let's work on a passing One of the things we need to remember what what we need to know about space and great. Let's run through. Let's run through five or six generations from the breakdown of our passing great after defending and just that act of having to recall it. All the details, all the into memory increase is likely the players will actually remember.
spk_0: 11:24
It's I like that idea that you might give them assistance. Surprise package in the middle. Right? We're doing this. We're doing technique and all right with you, or I'm gonna jump over. We're gonna d'oh on exercise activity drill. Whatever you want to call it that we did two weeks ago on See how you get on with that. Now, this, then sort of lied to seem to mind. My next question is the sort of tactics you then use. So we have. We've designed arm our season to jump in and jump out of techniques. Teo work on their retrieval practise when they're forgetting to. Then suddenly outlet, remember? So you've got a huge array of classroom tactics with someone sweet names next to them. So I really like to explore a couple of them. One of the ones which comes up over and over again is cold calling. So you just explain what that is, And then let's see what that looks like. Maybe in a sporting context.
spk_1: 12:20
Yeah, That's great. Thanks for asking. Co Cola is calling on a student whether or not they've offered to tell you the answer on its powerful because it's for a couple of reasons. One get allows you to hold players accountable on DH Man is their attention and focus. Questioning is such an important part of coaching. We ask players questions to make sure that they understand You can think about the things that I asked to D'oh! So typically, Anna, stop it in practise. I'm gonna say, Pop, we're building out of the back. I'll just use a saw, for example. Here. Pause. What do we need to think about doing? What do you notice about where the offence is? Position. What is that? What does that mean? You should d'oh! But if only one or two players air thinking about the answer to those questions and there had were, if the one or two most verbal players on my team shout out the first thing they can think of when I ask questions, then it doesn't really matter how good my questions are because 80% of the players on my team we're not answering them, and they're not thinking deeply about them. It's a cold calling allows me to say cause we're building out of the back were under pressure. Devon worship the number six feet. Let's assume that Devon is the number sits where Damon is the number eight and he'd say no. He needs to know where the number where the number six is. Suddenly, I said in the message that you don't get to when you walk on the field, you don't get Tau. Choose whether you want to answer the questions of the game. Asks if you have to be ready. Always have three listening, attentive and that has mentally locked in as you are physically on. Dso cool cause one of the most effective ways that I could do that. But it's also important because it allows me to toe tackle. I think, one of the other just fundamental challenges of teaching, which is checking for understanding. The great American basketball coach John Wooden encapsulated this idea when he said teaching is knowing the difference between I taught it and they learned it and we're constantly faced with these challenges, right? I know that I talked about building out of the back for three straight days this week, and then on Saturday. We don't do it. And so, ideally, I would know on Wednesday that were not, I would realise on Wednesday that were not really mastering. Building out of the back is supposed to wait for the match to Rosa on So one of them, If if when I ask questions, I rely on the players who offered to tell me whether they understand I always get a false sample. Always get this. Players who are more like who think they know are more likely to volunteer to tell me, and the players who have no idea where we're supposed to be articulate are gonna silently hide, and I will never understand how much they don't know. But if I can call call, it's a great dam, which is worse than number six. Be great, Robert. Where should the Raby then I can. I can get a better statistical sample of what my players know and don't know, and therefore on Earth, it's a gift to understand. Understand what players don't understand on Wednesday, and I can under fit more quickly and more effectively on Wednesday, as opposed to waiting for the performance. So I think there are two reasons why cocoas is so powerful.
spk_0: 15:28
Way we can see how effective that is Now, cause you asked Evan on Devon, Um, isn't used to answering the questions. Yeah, on DH, he does one of two things. One he clearly doesn't know, says I don't know or he comes up, which is so ridiculous that if you said it was ridiculous, you probably shatter is confidence he had in the first place. So let's just go first with the he doesn't know the answer. How'd you feel with that?
spk_1: 16:01
Right. Well, the first thing I want to do is I want I want to build what I call a culture of error where players feel safe telling me that they don't know. So the first thing I would probably say is good. I'm glad. I'm glad you told me that. I'm glad to know that you don't know e
spk_0: 16:17
love that. So you would say I glad you don't know I love
spk_1: 16:21
Well, I mean, I'm glad you don't know, but I'm glad to know that you don't know. I Yeah. Okay. Uh, math teacher that I love said this in a lesson that I was video. I'm so glad I saw that mistake. It's gonna help me to help you. Which, basically what? It doesn't pretend that there's not a estate right, the calls of a mistake. I'm so glad to know that you don't I'm really glad to know that you don't know because it's gonna make us better on Saturday. Or I'd rather know now than on Saturday because because it's important and it's tricky. And so let's go through it one more time. Let's talk about it. So what I want to do is I want to take the defensiveness and the blame out of the equation. When I shouted players, How can you not know? We're supposed to be Devin? We've been working on this for three days. I do a couple of things right now. Now there's a disincentive for Devon to reveal to me his lack of understanding, and it's gonna be 10 times harder for me to understand the gaps between I talked about that, and I've introduced a whole set of variables to Devon. Just he shouted down the way, the same way they shot at me. Does he sound like my father when he shouts at me, Why's he always shouting at me? Is he not gonna play me on Saturday? Because he's shouting me and all those things to strike Devon from the fact that he needs to be 10 yards deeper, three yards wider? And so I think that when we if we can build this culture, there were not a defensiveness about making mistakes. I'm really glad to know that doesn't matter whose fault it is. I'm gonna go back and re teach it. That's that's what I want to have happened. So I want to make players comfortable revealing their mistakes. To me, it doesn't mean I can't make them feel responsible. I could say to Devon, I'm really glad to know that because by Saturday we absolutely have to know what our positions are gonna be. So let's go through it again. And afterwards, Devon, I'm gonna ask you, make sure you're ready to answer anything you don't understand. Now is the time to ask. Got it? Good. So I think I can still do accountability with culture of Arab when players don't know. Um, it is a gift to know because it tells me that I have to change my
spk_0: 18:21
teacher. So now, now, hey, has actually given you an answer. But it is. It's well off, so well, how you gonna deal with that,
spk_1: 18:33
right? I could, I could I think they're a variety of things. I could say. I kind of like I'm trying to read like they're a variety of different attitudes. Devon could have, like, he could say something. Anything. Just like, hilarious, huh? You know, on the sand on the touchline, coach. Or he could earnestly answer and just be completely off the mark. So again, I'm thinking about culture of air. If it's the latter, I might say I can see why you might say that, but that's actually wrong here. Let's go through again. And let's study what the right answer would be for a lot of people. A lot of people think that, but it's actually not true or when I would you know, there were times when I was a player when I thought that that was the right answer. But it's actually wrong here, so let's go back and let's study why it's actually gonna help us to understand. So again I want I want I'm gonna try a little. There's interest in and understanding of the value of studying their mistakes as much as I can, because studying arm states is one of the tools we use to learn. If that sort of hanging around a little bit on the touchline, Coach said. You know I would do this to me. Is that for screen like a mistake in a sin, which is like your Mr Honour Proxima B like thinking it's not the touchline. I'm gonna tell you again, and this time make sure that you're less time or, you know, So I might do a little bit more of like
spk_0: 19:49
a whole church back there. Are you furrowing your brow when you're saying that? And you just Yeah, I think the
spk_1: 19:56
interesting thing is that, like, it's important to be able to distinguish between when an athlete is, um, violating the norms of the team being silly and not taking learning seriously and when they're genuinely confused. And often they used a former to cover for the ladder. And so I think, be careful rushing to judge. My first instinct is gonna be like, I'm glad to know that you've got to know that you don't understand. Um e I appreciate your making light of it, but let's get when you deal with the serious that we have to understand this or anyone who's gonna play on Saturday has to understand this. Maybe that would be a subtle way that I would say, like, you know, I have some responsibility to re teach it here, and you have some responsibility to make sure you learned it. But I think rush like one of the things that happens when gaps emerged between I taught at the Naval earned. It is coaches or teachers letting learners. They blame athletes, kids, they don't care about us any attention. They don't want it. Not like we wanted it when we were 18 right? Of course. And you go toe on That has can't have really negative effects on team culture. And of course, the players are doing the same thing, right? Uh, when they get blamed for not knowing how to things do things that they don't know how to do right? If we haven't been clear with him about it, they start to lose faith in the Endeavour. Getting better being taught in the Africa saved the coach. And so, um, taking with the blame and saying I'm glad to know that Let's go through it again. You know? Let's make sure we all understand it. It's always a long rumours. Helps me ensure my players faith in the in the endeavour of learning. Just that's a whirl about
spk_0: 21:48
so one of the things that you have then said in when, when someone gives you the answer. So let's sort of take the middle ground. He's not. He knows an answer. It's not ridiculous. It's almost right now. You talked in a previous block about teachers sometimes rounding up. Can you explain what that means? Why we have to feel aware on how we avoid falling into the trap of Romney out when we shouldn't.
spk_1: 22:20
Rounding up is when a student does the glimmer right. Answer a partial right answer, and the teacher then refreezes what the students had. And as as a lot of information, so I'll just give you I was an English teacher, so be in English. Answer. And then I'll try and translate in sports, right? What's the relationship between the capitalists and the Montagues down? They don't like each other, and then when my roundup I stayed with us, right? Dan said that the runner, Hughes and the calculates hate each other and they've been feuding for generations, Right? So that's actually not what you said. My ass was much better than yours. I added all the important detail. But I've convinced you that you know more than you dio on. I've done all the cognitive work of providing important part of answer on DSO. This is one of those challenges of teaching, which is I want to validate and appreciate the effort that the student has given. But I want the students to come with a full answer, so I might say so. So, first of all, in the form of my question, I might anticipate the fact that I'm going to get any complete answer and say, Who could get us started talking about the relationship between the capitals, for the Montagues again? And so just that you can get a start implies that if I say that's a good start, but there's more to it or let's let's continue to develop that idea because this is good thinking there. But but the full answer as more than it's no surprise. That doesn't seem like a judgement. But then I say, Yes, it evolved. Yes, it involves tension between the families. Who could tell us more about that more than I want to push back on students or dance it, then that's part of it. But can you tell me more about the relationship? How long? How long is this situation? Persistent rights And then, of course, the thinking back to students. So then I'm I'm in a sporting situation and I say what we think about what we're building out of the back we need to get. Why? Why is it? But there's more to it than that. What else do I need? One of the windows to the outside backs need to be thinking about who needs get wide right, Ethan. Then I can. I want to be careful about overestimating how much students know and get into credit and thinking that they have a complete answer. Gonna go. But I think that it happens all the time. I get even, even you know that the slightest soundings, I mean, in part because I'm always in a rush, right? I have more than I want to do. And so I get the hint of a right answer, and it's just so easy to drop in like that. Here, here's a Here's a little bit more, but in the end, it's the students or understand under gonna understand it. The students have to do the work
spk_0: 24:51
that sometimes the problem with questioning is that you feel that you could draw everything out by asking a question after question after question. My sense is that sometimes you actually got Tio get out the knowledge gun. And for a few shots on DH, you're not reaching for the gun fast enough because, as you say, you're in a rush. But you're also thinking I'm gonna The students will know. Eventually. I'll ask the question where they have a light bulb moment. But sometimes you have to say right to world attempt in the technical term here is more than technique. You need to use it or here are some techniques. So is there a a subtle way off shooting the bullet? Or do you have to actually say right? I'm gonna have to give you some knowledge now? I think the
spk_1: 25:43
role of knowledge in higher order thinking of which I was a wish is what the goal of questioning is to illicit students is vastly underestimated both in schools and on the training ground. There's a miss that people can engage in higher order thinking about things that they don't know anything about. And it's it's just not true. You can't think deeply about something. You don't have any knowledge about some background knowledge. A lot of teachers think that background all just the opposite of higher order thinking. They will say things like, Why should teach Fats when the kids can Gruebel anything? We should teach higher order thinking and the answer that is because you can't think you can't have her thinking about something. You don't know anything about it out on the more you know about it weren't deeply concerned. So if I translate about to support setting back, our knowledge is usually important. And if I want my question to be good, players should never in advance. What is our game model? One of the principles of play so that I can draw on and even I would say off shared vocabulary is critically, critically important. My daughter plays football. She's in a really good club and last year, her coach talking about receiving the ball side on. And this year coach talks about receiving the ball in the half term. Those are both exactly the same thing that just using a different term for it. And so, But I would suspect that she does not associate everything that she's learned about receiving on the half turn with everything that she learned about receiving side on this issue can't draw on that knowledge, because vocabularies and consistent across the club so to things that I would want to do it If I, if I believe in questioning a PSA methodology, is I want to do my best to standardise the vocabulary the coaches used from a group to age age group so that players associate and drawn their knowledge in a consistent way. And then I want players to know in advance what, like so if I paws down, has the ball under pressure amid steal. What is the principle is that with one of the things that we want to do, receive the ball under pressure in the midfield? I think people was, if you think about the types of questions in your house, people assume that a question discovery is the highest question. But oftentimes the problem something that we want to do is we know roughly what the answer is. We don't want players to invent a new solution. Toa having a ball under pressure way know what the two every responses is. The problem solving is how do I do it here in this situation? And so my question thinking great. What we won't accomplish her. We want to get about what? Great. How we do look around you. What do you see? What's gonna be challenging about getting it wide here? Yes, we're under pressure and their three players in the passing lanes. Good. And so what do we have to do to overcome that? That's still problems all day. And the other thing that I would say about questioning may be This is, to me that most overlooked form of effective question when I want to ask about decisions, I should ask about perception because, um, in games played a speed. Often the Connexion between perception and action is direct, and it bypasses conscious decision making. And so the question What do you see is often just as important as what should you do? Because I don't know what I should do and must I perceive. And when players make bad decisions, it's often because they failed to CEO. They fell to proceed the alternatives. So it's what I was watching. Football practise a soccer practise last night, and the coach was talking about two defenders, two defenders supporting each other by maintaining death. And when he stopped them, he would say, Uh, look yourselves, Are you, uh, Steph, you're deep. And Katie, you're you took your both Even What should you? D'oh? And when he identified the problem, they were perfectly able to say Case should be further forward and Steph should maintain deaths. But that's very different from ST Pop. That's what he noticed and having them have to notice if they were even in itself. The problem right? The perception, the problems that they don't know what to do, the problems that I can't receive the situation. So I think, another form of question that is extremely powerful, the question that coaches often overlook its paws when you see where should you rascal, What should you be looking at to make this decision that is often as important as what should you do? Yeah, especially in a game like grumpy that happens fast and where you know, reading, reading the queues and knowing where your eyes go is in many ways the definition of expertise. There's this fascinating video out there on the Internet of Cristiano Ronaldo with a pair of vision tracking glasses on um, and one of the things that they do is 1/2 another player's broken corner victory, but they turn off the lights, just see strike in the corner, and Christiano Ronaldo was still able to have the ball into the back of the net in the dark, and the reason he's doing he's able to do that is because he's reading the perceptive cues of the player is about to strike the ball before he strikes it right, though his the ability to look at the right things and I understand them is in many cases expertise. I think we found to think about it that way.
spk_0: 31:08
Looks like a baseball player trying to strike about. I mean, it's just absolutely possible. I mean the similarities with cricket as well. There's no way that you could make a decision when the ball's halfway towards you made a decision based on the shape of the hand and all sorts of things. So I mean, that's that's a fascinating area. So I want to just just ask another one is talking about took getting the players to be more interactive with themselves. Now one of the things they're on again, I think you emphasise this all the time. These terms are you You're using these terms to pick up on things that you've observed in classrooms and on sports fields. Which things which work effectively eso another term that you use, which works effectively his turn and feature. So just how does that work on DH? Why does it work?
spk_1: 32:03
Yeah, s so this great video and I feel you I have a chance to taste it in somewhere. But it's the Coast and James Beast and I were talking about where they've just been working on the back and through passing patterns for 15 minutes and caused them, he says, Great. We've been working on that back and back and threw water some game situations in which we met Clavius in a typical coaching session. You know, maybe like the most valuable player says, Calls out in Answer. The team says, Turn and talk with the part with the player Next, you 30 seconds. Then I'll ask you what you came up with. And in that moment, a couple of things happen. One for every player on the team. Miss answering the question as opposed to just one. And so, like the ratio of who's of how many athletes are thinking about the question. You're just got multiplied by 10. And for players who are a little bit reluctant to talk who maybe the players who most need to talk, they're rehearsing an answer and getting comfortable with an answer. And so that if James Cole calls them coming out of the turn and talk and says, Great Matteo, what did you talk about so that I could bring more players safely in tow into the conversation, but also, if my goal is in group invasion games like basketball, hockey, rugby, soccer players have to communicate to have tto talk to each other during during the game, and we tell them all the time. I hope it's the one most consistent piece of feedback that they hear during football. Practise is just like talk guys, you have to communicate what we sometimes forget that the other, the other half of the equation is listening. Everyone's talking and no one is listening. You have the American political process and s O. So it's important to think about how I socialised listening coach on the field. So turn to talk. If I coming out of the turn of Bacchus that great Matteo, what did you and what did you intend to talk about? Right then all of a sudden, materials to talk about what Danilo said. And he has to be listening history, listening. It's heart disease. Or if I Coke on the chance that what did you talk about? And then when potatoes Don't I say Great, Larry, what you think about the tent with Matteo just said that I'm socialising military, that when Matteo is talking, it's really important you're accountable for listening to what he says. Eso uh, if I want players to communicate on the field, I have to make it a habit if I want to give effect of them feel during games after making a habit during during training, and I think turn and talk is a great So it's a great way to increase participation ratio in the left and the amount of thinking and also socialised pure, pure communication. My outfits another. There's another video of my my blocks from our coaching. Steve Freeman, who said they players of doing an activity, divides the plates, the Orange team against the black team, and he divides up oranges on offence. Black is on defence. Please, he says, split up into groups. Spent 30 seconds talking about what you need to improve on tactically to solve this problem. Go right. And so then they're practising doing exactly what he wants them to do in the game, which is, too. Problem solves a group. Then he comes back together and he says, Great Orange team. Would you talk about David? You're first rate. So again they're just lost in lots of opportunities for players to practise, communicating productively as opposed to say loudly or some more selfishly during the match. So
spk_0: 35:32
I jumped jumped ahead because I said, turn and teach. So you turn tall, so that's a feeding back. So, uh, but the other ones that took is a very clear way of the players are working together now turn teachers where you might give a chance for a player to show that they understand what they're doing. It's the other player. So that lesson on the greater but I want to construct that one. So much is going to go back a couple of steps now. Another thing that you you say, is that the learner's the players, the athletes said the kids in the classroom, they need to understand why you're saying these things and you give an example of Maybe I think you call it roll out where you say, This is how we turn and talk on ur demonstrate what they've got to do to make it work effectively, things just don't say it and the kids randomly turn around. So just what? What? How does you know? Obviously, is quite clearly introduced cold calling. How do you introduce and what's the best things that the kids could do when they turn and talk? Yeah, I
spk_1: 36:36
think this is a It's a great question because, um, it's really a procedure. That's something I want to do over and over again. And the more often I do it, the more I want to make sure that we have. Ah, we have a way of doing it, enough top players to do it in a productive way. So before I do it the first time, I'm going to call the players and say during training today, I'm gonna be asking you questions. And when we're in the field together, everyone needs to be thinking we need to be engaged as engage mentally as we are physically, ever been overcome, the kind of upon us we need to play this year. So if I ask you questions and I say turn and talk means U turn and talk to one of your partners and I want you to think as deeply as you can about the question I'm asking and push yourself to understand its application and listen carefully to what your teammate is saying so that you're engaging the idea and you're mentally focused, right? If we did a passenger, Oh, and only one person was passing, it would be much less effective than if we get a passenger on. Everyone was passing ball. It's the same with the thinking, so that's what I expected. Let's practise it right now. What's the most important thing to do when we tryingto right and then I would figure in the coal hole coming out. But that allows me toe explain to players what the purpose of the Endeavour is so that they do it successfully and they see what it has to do with their learning and to instal it as a system and a habit that then I can draw on over and over again, as productively as a coach like James does
spk_0: 38:09
with the turn and talk in the classroom videos I've seen you're quite clear on the body language that the people the kids are doing on. Also, when a player gives an answer again, you're quite clear on the body language. Can you just very briefly say what sort of body language you are rolling out with the place?
spk_1: 38:33
Sure, the most important thing to me is eye contact, which is when you try to talk with someone you trust. You turnip faced them and you look at them. Which one socialises youto listen carefully and helps build a tented behaviours, but also says to your partner, I care what you're saying right now. Um, no one in their right mind shares their true thoughts. They're deep thinking something they're not sure might be right. But that's really important to Hearst, to someone to the back of someone else's head or to someone who looks like they don't give a damn. And so, the first home in a body languages I turn and face. My partner would look at each other, and I stake them with my body language. What you're about to say to me, I care. You're my teammate, What you're saying to me matters. And then I get quality speaking and its people to understand that. And one guys have facing another guy, and I'm expecting him to shares. One thing that matters is it's just not gonna happen. And so that might even be part of my role. I might explain to one of things I can ask you to do when you turn it off is to make sure there's no contact between you. First of all, we're gonna be looking at each other, trying to trying to understand each other constantly threaten game, but second, it shows you could choose your teammate. Their ideas matter, and that's one of the most important part. Teammate will help you listen carefully trying right now. Go something like
spk_0: 39:51
that. Well, brilliant. And I've got a bunch of more questions to ask you. But I know that you're extremely busy, man. But just before we we finish up. If on I'm sure people want to be accessing a ll this information, they should obviously be going out and getting teach like champion. I think its version 2.0 the moment
spk_1: 40:15
wearing two right three. Right now?
spk_0: 40:19
Yeah. So that would be the book. So where would they Where would they go to? To find out more information and dig deeper into some of the things that so you would be talking about.
spk_1: 40:28
Thank you so much for asking. I have ah, blogged that I that I write on our website. It's teaching champion dot com backslash backslash log on it. Just trying to share things that I'm learning because I'm I'm lucky that I constantly get to learn from teachers and coaches. So some of the James be seen videos that we talked about her up there with some discussion of them probably post something about the football practise that I watched last night on the math lesson that I saw earlier this week. So I tried to post a couple times and we can just share new things that I'm realising from studying coaches and teachers. And so that's great, great place. I'm also out there on Twitter, dug hundreds, Kharlamov. And you know, I love hearing from other teachers and coaches, so please be in touch.
spk_0: 41:13
Yeah, well, obviously I put those links that on the teacher. Notes or not, the teacher notes in the podcast. No time. I'm in a different world in the pod customers. This has been absolutely, I didn't realise before the part we were talking and your son is taken up with be just recently after playing soccer to a good level, and it's been great to know that you are coming with the dark side of rugby. I think the most important thing is that these are universal situations, and it was very interesting that there is a lot of translation from the classroom onto the field. Uh, but thank you very much for your time on DH Insight. I thoroughly enjoyed it. People might hear me sniggering away thinking, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Why didn't I do that? Do that before Why? Why? I'm not done more of that. So thanks very much for your time.
spk_1: 42:09
My pleasure. Thanks for thanks for inviting me on. And let's do it again sometime.
spk_0: 42:14
Yeah, definitely. So where? Thanks. Thanks again to Doug. For everyone who's been listening in. This is a rugby coach podcast. Goes the rugby coach weekly dot net website to click on the Po custom, too. Listen to this podcast on many more, Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to the rugby coach. Weekly podcast. If you want to hear more podcasts, head over to rugby coach weekly dot net and click on the blog's stab to catch up on any episodes you missed way. Look forward to speaking to you again soon with Mohr insights from coaches and experts from the world of rugby sport and learning.