Mavis is a masterful therapist and coach who has been teaching the Three Principles and working with clients for over 40 years. Being in the presence of Mavis Karn feels like sitting in the ultimate seat of wellbeing, but just as Mavis points out, this feeling is simply a byproduct of us slowing down in the moment and releasing anything from our mind.
She teaches us about the importance of listening and how it comes first before anything else when looking to connect with others. Next, it is important to recognize our state of mind, as well as the other persons'. Understanding what mood we are in lets us know how to take care of ourselves and recognizing what another person's mood is, helps us to know whether or not they are in a good place to connect. Seeing state of mind makes it much easier to not take other people's behavior personally because we understand their behavior is a reflection of their state of mind and not us. Not taking other people's behavior personally means we suffer less.
Mavis has a beautiful way of speaking about how well we're made as humans, how we all are made of the same divine, universal intelligence, and how this essence of ours is more than enough to guide us toward a beautiful life.
She simplifies human suffering by stating that in all her years working as a therapist there is only one diagnosis she would ever feel is appropriate, and that's forgetting how well we're made. When we aren't aware of this truth, we look in the wrong direction for healing and we struggle since it isn't there. But as soon as we trust in our divinity, we come back home.
This episode explores:
Show Notes
Mavis Karn's recent and free listening trainings are accessible here.
Mavis Karn, LSW, MA, is in private practice offering coaching, counseling, teaching, education, and consulting services. Mavis’s honesty and humble “true north” understanding of the inborn potential of each of us is deeply and broadly respected by clients and colleagues globally. She does no marketing. She works from her home office in Minnesota. She’s the author of a well-known letter to juvenile inmates The Secret. You can connect with Mavis by sending an email to mavis.karn@aol.com
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.
Episode 30 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Ange
Mavis is a masterful therapist and coach who has been teaching the Three Principles and working with clients for over 40 years. Being in the presence of Mavis Karn feels like sitting in the ultimate seat of wellbeing, but just as Mavis points out, this feeling is simply a byproduct of us slowing down in the moment and releasing anything from our mind.
She teaches us about the importance of listening and how it comes first before anything else when looking to connect with others. Next, it is important to recognize our state of mind, as well as the other persons'. Understanding what mood we are in lets us know how to take care of ourselves and recognizing what another person's mood is, helps us to know whether or not they are in a good place to connect. Seeing state of mind makes it much easier to not take other people's behavior personally because we understand their behavior is a reflection of their state of mind and not us. Not taking other people's behavior personally means we suffer less.
Mavis has a beautiful way of speaking about how well we're made as humans, how we all are made of the same divine, universal intelligence, and how this essence of ours is more than enough to guide us toward a beautiful life.
She simplifies human suffering by stating that in all her years working as a therapist there is only one diagnosis she would ever feel is appropriate, and that's forgetting how well we're made. When we aren't aware of this truth, we look in the wrong direction for healing and we struggle since it isn't there. But as soon as we trust in our divinity, we come back home.
This episode explores:
Show Notes
Mavis Karn's recent and free listening trainings are accessible here.
Mavis Karn, LSW, MA, is in private practice offering coaching, counseling, teaching, education, and consulting services. Mavis’s honesty and humble “true north” understanding of the inborn potential of each of us is deeply and broadly respected by clients and colleagues globally. She does no marketing. She works from her home office in Minnesota. She’s the author of a well-known letter to juvenile inmates The Secret. You can connect with Mavis by sending an email to mavis.karn@aol.com
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.
Episode 30 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Ange
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce. This is episode number 30 an interview with Mavis Karn. I don't think that I've ever worked with couples without teaching them first. How to listen. If we're listening to the noise in our head rather than our partner. The relationship is probably not going to feel it. There's a ton of intimacy in it and not feel very close. So it's all about trusting. I just need to show up and listen deeply. And I have everything at my disposal to articulate myself in the moment, But it's also important to remember that your state of mind is the only one. You have any dominion over To be. Okay. No matter how I'm feeling, that feels even better to me than just going after happiness. I was a single mom with three kids and I had very little and sometimes no money. Nobody could tell me that was just my thinking, except that it was This incredible piece of biological engineering. That is my body. It's kind of set up to have the most optimal human experience. They didn't use to think I was doing something wrong. If I was unhappy or, or angry or irritated or whatever. And now I just kinda don't care. You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross and me Rohini Ross. Rewilding love is a podcast about relationships. We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be Rewilded. Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work And how it has helped them in their relationships, relax and enjoy the show. We're so grateful to have been able to interview Mavis Karn today. We had a wonderful conversation with her and Mavis has been working as a therapist for over 40 years. She's incredibly masterful in her work. She's a therapist, she's a coach, she's a consultant. And she works from her home in Minneapolis and she works purely by word of mouth. Yeah, I, I feel like words really can't express what a global treasure she is. I feel like we need choirs of angels. We need an orchestra with a very heavy drum roll to introduce her, because I think that she's, she's one of the greatest teachers out there, this understanding, and I'm always really affected by what she shares and what she brings to the table. But then you had a bit of a tricky start. I Had to, I had a bit of a tricky start. So what happened? All I know that I wanted to speak to Mavis and I suggested her and you obviously, you know, absolutely. Yeah. Let's talk to me this. So I was a little thrown because typically you always kind of hit the ground running with these interviews. You always have a lot to say, and are very good at initiating things. And I feel like you always initiate things. And I got into guests, a comfort around you. I personally got into feeling comfortable about you initiating things? So you threw me when we started and you looked at me with this obvious expectation that I was going to kick things Off. I think I said, do you want to kick us off? You did. So that kind of, kind of threw me through a bit of a loop. You could have said, no, I don't think that would have ever felt, felt very appropriate for me to say no. And then I, I kind of had to scramble to sort of, I guess in a way to sort of say something that was kind of on point somewhat articulate. And I felt like I did a really poor job because I was scrambling and feeling a little bit panicked by that, finding myself in that position. So nevertheless, anything things kicked off, but then I went into sort of self judgment about how I didn't kick things off very well, but it was kind of cool because then this sort of idea where she started to talk about listening, right? Then I started to become really aware about how I was feeling insecure and as a result, not listening and would go back and forth through bouts of insecurity and then having to listen. Cause obviously I'm going to have to listen because it's an interview for goodness sake. So there was a point where I felt like I just became kind of a little bit dumbstruck by the whole experience. I was monitoring myself wanting to go off on these tangents, but also having to listen at the same time. And then I thought it was kind of, sort of poetic at the end where, you know, I was able to sort of fess up to that and, and really feel something on that level. Yeah. I noticed that you got emotional. What was it that, that struck you about that? Because there's such a freedom and trusting that wisdom and allowance to come through and it feels like so much pressure not to like there's a tightness and there's a, and there's a fear. Like she said, I suddenly got afraid and that fear kind of kind of immobilized me. I was like a deer in the headlights. I mean, I don't know. We'll listen back and maybe no one will get a sense that that was my experience. But my internal experience was that I was kind of afraid to speak up. Was this other part of me? I have been experimenting with not having caffeine lately. And then there was this part of me or one of my tangents, like, damn I should have had my caffeine. It's like, I'm not, I'm not firing on all cylinders here. What are you drinking? If you're not drinking caffeine, I'm Drinking your, your mushroom your much cook mushroom tea. It's a Giant sea with mushrooms in it. People will think we're microdosing. No wonder you are going off on a tangent. That's true. We could, we could put it. What is it called? Mud Mud water. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously that was just a ridiculous thought to have, but it did occur to me when I was having my moment of panic. It's like, I'm not showing up very well here. I'm not listening and I'm not articulating myself. What's really interesting that, that is that you just went into your conditioning about, oh, my brain's not working properly. I totally went into that. That's not true. Absolutely just fine. And It doesn't really matter. Cause like, like we were talking about like the famous George Pransky quote, that wisdom is always there twiddling his thumbs, waiting for me to shut the hell up and it will help help me in any way I need in those moments where I just feel like, you know, just let those words flow out of my mouth. And did You get to that point where you were able to just be present and listen in and out? I think we all go in and Yeah. Interesting about this conversation for me, it was kind of, it was re it was a real coaching experience where I got to really kind of, you know, got to work through something real time around me and listening and my thinking, why, what am I going to listen to? I'm going to listen to the person that's talking or are we going to listen to the chatterbox in my head, that's getting consumed by fear. And it was really healing and it was very healing. Yeah. And that was the point of emotion for me was when I felt, you know, just feels really good to get that out and have it inside the room. Yeah. That's powerful. And I mean, I can completely relate to that. I, I know that I love to listen because it feels so good to listen, but I can definitely start thinking ahead about, oh, what am I going to ask next? Or what direction should this go in? And then I have to bring myself back in the same way. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, that, that has been an issue for, for me for a good portion of my life. That is like for me, where it appears and where it's obvious that I'm not listening. It's because I am actually listening. I'm just not listening to you or to anyone else. Other than that voice inside my head, who's probably getting caught up in, in, in fear. And in fact, I'm actually listening very well, but I'm listening to them. That's Right. The wrong channel channel. And I think that's really point in terms of what made us was saying that the first thing when she's working with couples is this, he teaches them about his listening. And I think about if we're listening to the noise in our head, rather than our partner, the relationship is probably not going to feel like there's a ton of intimacy in it and not feel close. And it's so simple. And yet it goes such a long way toward building root before when we really listen to our true self and our partner, right. Rather than the, the noise of the ego and how much can be worked out from that space when we're really willing to have an open mind and an open heart. Like for me, when I'm listening my mind and heart naturally open. Yeah. That's lovely. So why don't we listen to this episode with an open mind? Sounds good to me. I wish I had more opportunities to speak to you Mavis because I always love what you have to say. And, and I, and I always think about that time where you were sharing, how, when you started, I guess, your work as a therapist many moons ago. And I don't even know at that point what the, where we were with. I know that we're, I think we're at the DSM five now. And I think, I don't know where it was at that point in time and its evolution. And I remember you saying how, when you started part of it for you was to sort of try to figure out what, what the category in the DSM, whatever it was back then, what label you could give to your, to your clients so that they could have the insurance pay for it. And that was kind of, sort of part of your, I guess, part of your mindset at that point. And you said that the difference between, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I heard it, the difference between how you were showing up back then and how you're showing up now in the work that you do that now it's all about focusing on everything that doesn't appear to be light love, or words to that effect. And I just thought that was just so beautiful. And I, and, and, and it just seemed to sort of really speak to what this understanding is pointing to and its essence. And I feel like, you know, if ever I need the services of a therapist at any point in my life, I would like that to be the pointer. So I, I may have heard it and, and, and, and just sort of distilled it in something that was perhaps different to what you said, but that's kind of how I heard it is, is it accurate, I guess, is what I'm gonna ask you? Well, the most important thing about whatever it is you heard is what you felt. All right. And I'm assuming, but I'm going to check with you. I'm assuming it felt like the truth. Yes. Yeah. Isn't that interesting that how different truth feels from opinion or attitude or belief or truth is like, yeah, there's nothing more to say. It's just true. Okay. So way back then, I thought my job was to find out what was wrong with people and to fix it. I can't believe I ever thought that that that was anybody's job, but that, that didn't, that didn't feel good, but I didn't know it was because it just wasn't right. It just didn't feel good. So the biggest 180, for me in learning about how well we're made is that there isn't anything wrong with us. We just didn't know that. So all the clients that I see and everybody else for that matter, there's only one diagnosis. They either know how well they're made or they w and if you don't, life is much harder than if you do. Does that make sense? Yeah. So my job, my first job top of the list is to remember that myself, if I don't start there, nothing's going to work very well. So that's job number one. And the second one is to show people why that's true, why there's nothing wrong with them, but that they're perfectly free to think there is. And they're perfectly free to believe there is, and to prove to themselves or others that there is, but it isn't the truth. And you can tell by how it feels. I think it's that simple. So when people come to Mavis who do think that there's something wrong with them, based on how they're feeling, what they're struggling with, how do you go about helping them understand how they're made and seeing what you see? Well, the first, the first order of business always for me is just to listen to them, just to have you ever noticed how, when you just, when you're just really deeply listening to them, when, when you have decided to make what they want to get across to you more important than that, you're thinking when you've just made that decision, which I think is a really good decision to make on day one minute, that in the process of then just really listening to them, they let you know how to talk to them. This that isn't that interesting. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it other than that, but B, but it comes to you how to begin a conversation. So I don't think I ever in my life I've ever done it the same way twice. So it isn't that I, that I say, oh, well, they, you say this, and then you say this and you get the whiteboard out and you explain everything. And I just think it's such an individual thing, even in, in a big group, it's an individual thing because nobody is, nobody is hearing what you're saying exactly the same way as anybody else. So you take that into account and you just stole him the truth. And I just think it's so interesting that people can hear the truth and feel it. And they can't exactly point to where they're feeling that. But it's a, it's like a S a sigh. If it has a kind of a, I knew that, and then we, then we go, well, yeah, but what about, but we just, we just want, we get busy. I know. I certainly did. I w we just get busy trying to make sure that what we think might be an exception might not be, but just in case it is, we want to talk about it, but there are no exceptions. You're not going to come up with something about you. That isn't your thinking. It's not going to happen. You're made, you're made of universal, intelligent energy, otherwise known as the truth. You're just made of that. You can't be made of something else. That's what I'll all. Life is intelligent energy. You're not some sort of an exception to that. Nothing is an exception to that. I know that's a big bite. I understand that because we've spent a lot of time educating yourselves and spending a lot of money going to school, learn and stuff. Cause we want to know stuff. And we probably have this, this kind of hidden agenda. If I just get educated enough, I'm not going to have any problems.<inaudible>, It's interesting about what you're saying about truth, because I so resonate with that feeling that that comes forward. I'm getting better at sort of identifying that feeling. A lot of the times to me comes a little bit of emotion too. There's a sort of, there's a feeling of whoa, I'm home. And, and it kind of feels like I already kind of, I kind of want to cry sometimes. I kind of felt like that when you shared that story about your work as a therapist, and there's something interesting about maybe it's in the education system. I don't know, but there is this. Sometimes I've noticed this, this with my clients is that they're looking for the holes. They're looking for where this conversation doesn't hold water. And yet they know it's the truth. Intuitively they got a feeling that this is true. And then there's this sort of analytical, I don't know, analytical part of themselves that takes over, let's find where this doesn't hold water. Let's find the hole. That's fun where this doesn't make sense. I don't have any judgment about that. You know, I've never been too much of a person that if somebody said something, I said, oh yeah, okay. That's the truth. It's like, I always wanted to go. Well, yeah. But what about this? And I, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I, I think you should, you should find it for yourself and I'm not asking whenever I'm doing, doing this work, I'm not, I'm not, it would never occur to me to say, take my word for this. Just forget everything else. Just, I know it take my word that I, I can't imagine doing that. I would, I would say, don't take my word for it. Try it on for size, check it out, see what you find out. I agree. It's healthy for us to allow all of that thinking that naturally comes up and ultimately people can only experience truth for themselves. It can't be given to them. It can only be an experiential knowing of truth. It's not an intellectual realization. So we, we all come to it in our own way and our own timing of that. And to whatever degree we do. And I know I've had little tastes of ed along the way. And, and when you were talking about sort of that, that big bite that no, what you're saying in terms of us, everything being made up of that universal, intelligent energy, and that is what is in terms of relationships. What we see is that it's when people forget that, that they tend to come up against their insecurities, come up against challenges in interpersonal dynamics. And I know that you've had many years working with people and I'd love to hear any thoughts that you have in terms of your experience, working with couples or working with people, any kind of relationship, really, and how understanding that we are, this universal, intelligent energy, how that's helpful in terms of relationship. Well, I don't think that I've ever, I'm not sure about this, but I don't, I don't think that I've ever worked with couples without teaching them first. How to listen. Well, you're a couple, right? What happens if you don't listen to each other, It doesn't feel very good. Or even if you think you're listening, but what you're actually doing is listening to your own opinions about what he's saying or she's saying, and you're making your own judgments about why they're saying that. And so you're listening to your own mental activity, but you're certainly not listening to her. There's a videotape now out about the listening class that I did, that people can get. I think it's free. I think it's, it might be on grace, Kelly's YouTube. And I will just have them listen to that first for one thing, even if all they got out of it is if they're listening to me better, they'll get more bang for their buck. So listening is really important, but it's also important to remember that your state of mind is the only one. You have any dominion over most couples in other relationships too, are usually someone's trying to get somebody else to change so that they feel better. And if that person just wouldn't do this or just would do this, then we'd be fine. And they're trying to convince the other person of that, right? I do want to tell you that has not worked in the history of humanity. So it has a really core record for a technique. And it isn't just remembering this once. It's always remembering your state of mind comes first in all things and all things, let everything go. I know this sounds hokey, but let everything go. That doesn't feel like love and Goodwill. It's it's not affection. I don't mean that it's not a personal affection or a preference, or that it's like, get everything out of the way and get real friendly with, I don't know. And see what you hear. See what happens. Don't have your self committed to an outcome or concern yourself with an outcome. It's just, <inaudible> Angus. You talked about when you hear the truth, it feels like home. It is home. That's who you are. That's what it feels like when there's nothing going on, except who we are. It's the simplest thing in the world. I have no idea why people keep listening to me because it's so simple. I don't understand why everybody isn't going well, duh, I guess I do understand because I didn't, when I first heard it, I had the same reactions. And then I went about dizzy in my head for months because I thought it can't be that simple. It just can't be. I'm not dumb. I would have gotten it. What was that simple? No, that's why I didn't get that because it's that simple. So all the knocks people get themselves tied up in relationships and I can do I know how to do that. I haven't forgotten. I occasionally tie a nod or two and go, if that person would just quit doing that, I'd be fine. It feels so awful. Now I can't, I can't keep it up for very long because I haven't found an exception. Just be where you really are. Let everything go. It isn't you and you'll know when you've hit that. You can feel it. <inaudible>, isn't it interesting that that's the answer. And we're going to probably talk for another 45 minutes, but that's the answer. Yeah. I'm not saying let's not talk for another word. I hear you At the end of this. It's going to come back to that, but there's nothing wrong with talking about, well, yeah, but what about, and what did the did that? Because people have those questions and it's completely understandable that they do. I had them too. I could, I, if there was a, how many questions can you have about this? I think I win the prize. I just, oh my God. I just monoecious. I get that. I get that, that we need to say more, but in the end we've said it. I'm curious. What was one of your biggest, yeah. That came up for you when you came across this understanding? Well, when I came across it, I was a single mom of three kids and I had very little in sometimes no money. Nobody could tell me that was just my thinking, except that it was because even I then, cause I always, when I thought I'd come up with an exception, I always had this question and will this, everybody in the same circumstance feel exactly the same way all the time about it. And even, I couldn't say yes to that, but I still fly. Yeah. But, but there were lots of times when, when I had a fact, most of the time, when I, when I was single and had three kids and very little money, I had a blast. I had a lot of fun with them. I, I love being a mom. I just, I didn't always love being around most of the time. I love the animals, but still when I, when I was worried about my condition, I could, from time to time, look back on how things turned out and they always turned out fine. I just always thought though it was by the skin of my teeth. I just barely made it through that one. Then, then there was another one and then another one and just, you know, never knew when that was, wasn't going to work. And I was just going to be a total failure, but I, I didn't get it and I'd look back and go, oh yeah, I came out of that one. I didn't see the big picture. I didn't see. I was fine. The kids were fine. Life was good. I didn't, I was always waiting for the next disaster and a disaster. It was whatever I thought it was. That shouldn't happen. Right. I was a hard nut to crack, even though the original, it's all about our thinking. I kept, I kept that, but I did a lot of acception hunting and I did a lot of forgetting it and sort of, well, I, I still do, but I can't say that I really forget it anymore. I just, sometimes I just get busy and that feels really bad. Cause it usually I'm not busy because it's such a contrast to not being busy. It takes very little being off course to feel loud. It's a great reminder in, in terms of those exceptions that come up for people and, and what came up for you and being able to see actually, no, there is no exception to our experience being created via thought, even though there are challenging circumstances that people can come up against in life. And I want to be clear because sometimes people misunderstand that as saying, well, then you should stay in whatever circumstance that you're in. Like say you're in a, an abusive marriage. So I just want to be clear that that's not what you're saying. It's like, and I'm not saying that it's a sin. Not to be happy. Let's say that either. It's it's like, there are. So when I, when I hear it, see the news and I see some of the conditions people are in, oh man, I I'm, I don't know what I would do. I do not know. I know that I would be lucky to know what I know about thinking if I was in that situation. But that doesn't mean I'd be happy. It does not mean I wouldn't. I wouldn't. You have to really remember what I know, moment to moment to moment. Because like the people in the India, the people in Syria, the people it's like, I'll see some, I'll see some pictures of rubble and smoke and see kids playing well. That's, that's tragic and amazing that they have to play what they do. They're playing in conditions like that. But that they're playing is like a miracle of human engineering, but it's still everybody in those, in those conditions, there's nobody experiencing it the same way as anybody else. But everything is understandable. Everything. I don't care how they get through it. I'm on their side. They're just man. They're heroes. I don't know how well they do, but I have a lot of admiration for them. Yeah. It's just seeing the incredible resilience that we have as human beings is, is on inspiring. And I think it's a really great point that when we understand where experience comes from, it doesn't mean that we're going to be happy every moment of every day. That's not how it works and that's not a sin like you're saying, but it does help us to look toward where we can have fresh thinking and to not look toward all of the thinking that makes a difficult situation, even harder to deal with. Ultimately In the beginning, when I was learning this, I did use to think I was doing something wrong. If I was unhappy or, or angry or cranky or irritated or whatever, and now it's really different. I just kind of don't care. You know, I know it's like, oh, well, you know, I'll be smarter again in a minute. It's like, it's like, whether it's just, it's just a mood and it's, it's kind of nothing. And it'll pass. I D I just don't think it's big deal. It's not gonna make the evening news bad. It's just unimportant. It's important to know it like, oh, okay, brain lying to me again. But it isn't really important. And that's so freeing, I'll speak for myself because I used to think my moods were important and my feelings were important. And I used to spend a lot of time and energy, trying to feel a certain way and trying to improve myself because I had a certain mood that seemed to be lasting for too long, or I was struggling with insecurity and I didn't want to feel insecure. So what you're saying again, it's, it's so simple. Like, yeah, of course my moods, aren't going to be on the news, but in my mind, they seemed really important to me. And I thought that what I wanted was more happiness, which I definitely have more happiness in my life now, but what I am so grateful for is the inner freedom that I have to be. Okay. No matter how I'm feeling, that feels even better to me than, than just going after happiness. Cool. And this is so free and it takes so much pressure off because I was spending so much time, not, not meaning to be self-absorbed, but I just thought that's what I needed to do to be good enough that if I didn't do that, then I wasn't going to be good enough. If you think about that, I mean, we would never tell anybody, listen, the thing you want to do, if you're in a bad mood, just keeps thinking about your and try to figure out what you're thinking. And one of your thinking in how long you've been thinking about, and be sure to tell yourself that you're not, you're not very smart. If you're still, if you're having a bad mood, you just don't know anything, be sure to do that. That really helped a lot. Yeah. There's something quite profound about not caring or I guess for me, the way I'm taking that on board and how I look at my life is I think I do care less in those moments where I get caught off and I, and I do. I'm more inclined to not take myself so seriously on my thinking so seriously. And there's something about just trusting, I guess, in this incredible piece of biological engineering, that is my body. It's kind of set up to have the most optimal human experience. And, and even in what you were saying, I love that image. What I mean, in one sense, it's shocking. But in other way, I love the image of the kids playing in the rubble because that wellbeing is kind of like their north star, whether they know it or not, it's kind of happening naturally. So I can get all caught up and all stirred up. But my biology in a sense is, is looking for that wellbeing, even though my mind is going off on some crazy tangent, I think it's fun to know that you can observe yourself making up nonsense so you can watch yourself go crazy. Oh my God, look at me, look at what I'm doing And even have humor around it. Yeah. And I have started to find myself in that situation. I think there was a moment, a few weeks back where I got up set with you. And then I left the room in our half and I think I decided to go and having a shower and under the shower had, I had all of this crazy thinking going on, but there was this point where I just sort of almost took a step to the, to the left or right. Or whatever. And it started to observe what was unfolding for me. It was just like pixels on a screen. I'm just watching this movie. And it's just, just where my state of mind is at this moment. I don't really have to do anything with it. And it will probably evaporate into thin air in due course, Ran it down in the shower. I found the plug off that's right. And I think that's so helpful in relationships. I know how helpful it's been in our relationship where we're able to not take our thinking so seriously on a personal level where I'm spending less energy caught up in my low mood thinking and thinking about Angus when I'm in my low mood thinking, but also understanding that that's the same thing for him. So when Angus you're in a low mood situation, I have so much less suffering around Angus being in a low mood. Even if you know, you do say something that isn't particularly nice in the moment. I don't feel like a doormat by not reacting to that because I understand, oh, he's just really not feeling great in this moment. He's not himself. And, and it doesn't penetrate in the way that it used to penetrate in terms of it feeling really painful. If he'd said something not very kind now much more often, I can see that a reflection of his state of mind. And so it doesn't impact me personally. And if I'm in a really good place, I might feel kind of be compassionate, not always, but it it's it to me. If you had told me this, when I was taking things personally, all the time, I would have felt like you're asking me to be a doormat and to put up with all of his bad behavior. But what I experienced now is this feeling of okayness that is independent from how Angus is doing on the emotional level. That is empowering rather than being a doormat. I always thought if I was going to improve on our divine engineering, I would have a little, a little kind of neon sign up here that goes on when you have a bad mood and it says low mood warning. So you just walk around it a little bit better. Right? Well, I'm out of here That reminds me of those mood rings. I remember a girl we'd buy these mood rings. We could have like a little gemstone on our forehead. It shows some we're in. And actually all of us, if we're really, if we're aware, we know when someone's in a low mood, we know they might smiling. They might be saying nice things, but we can feel something. We may not know that we're feeling something, but we can feel it, but this would be much more obvious blinking Danger, danger, This forehead. It's not doing anything anyway, space. We can put something on it, But you're right. That, that feeling, and, and especially in close relationships, it's, there's, there's a, there's an attunement that happens. And so often, you know, thinking of myself in the past that a two men, I used it against myself, I would take it personally. Or I would then go into that habit that you were talking about Mavis of, oh, if only he were different than our relationship would be better, which as you say, only works, you know, only, never works a hundred percent of the time has the same impact of, you know, the other person feeling criticized and not appreciated. And, and just having that simplicity of recognizing that, yeah, this isn't pretty what's happening right now, perhaps, but it's just a reflection of state of mind. It's a reflection of thought and that is going to change. That is going to pass so much additional suffering gets avoided by look at the horrible fights we used to have when we first got together. If we had understood about low moods at those times, they would last the same amount of time. They last now it wasn't that what we were fighting over was more important than, and that, you know, now we have nothing to fight about is that we just didn't know not to add fuel to the fire. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's, I, I would love to know how you would address that issue with say a client. Cause I, I have had numerous instances. I, I, you know, and I have my way of dealing with it. I'd just be love. I'd love to know how you would respond to it. But when you get to that point where they do have their yeah. But in their relationship and it is this idea that, yeah, I'm going to be a doormat if they continue to do this. And I'm just going to somehow be able to, to, to not take this personally, but I would love to know how you address that. It's, it's interesting for me to see people who get to that sort of threshold. Yeah. I'll be a doormat and then they kind of, they shut up shop and don't want to continue the conversation. Sometimes I'd love to know how you would address that. Well, what comes to me is I, I think people don't know that they have a deeper intelligence that has nothing to do with personal information. It has nothing to do with education or IQ use or that there's a deeper, common sense and wisdom. Again, that universal intelligence that we're made of that knows the next right step that knows what's needed for the moment, but we're not going to find it up here. We're not going to find it there. We find it by trusting that it's there and letting what's needed, come to us, not from our brain, come to it. We D we need, we just need to know that's how we're made. And that, and that deeper intelligence is always on tap. It doesn't go someplace just because of circumstances or what somebody said or the mood you're in. It doesn't go someplace. It's always there because it's, you, it's who you are. And if, for instance, these, these, all these zoom things that I've been able to do during the pandemic, I have no idea ever what I'm going to say. I have, I don't plan. I don't study something. I don't, because I'm personally not that smart. I get along, I'm getting old. I can drive and do stuff, but I'm not dumb, but I'm personally not smart enough to, to give a deep and truthful answer to any question what my true self is. And so is everybody else's. And, and I have just learned to just trust that implicitly. And I'm not made any different than anybody else. If, you know, if you even just try it on for size, that you may know things you don't even know, you know, but they're ready to be known when you need them. And that you are made that way. Whether you believe it or not, you are made that way. And you have had instances of that being true, whether you remember them or not times when something came to you and you're like, whoa, where'd that come from? That was really smart. I'm just glad I thought that what a, what a relief, but it's not a one and done thing that's available to you all the time. And it's not, it's not like this big 4th of July thing. It's just everyday common, ordinary wisdom. It's right. On the other side of a worry right there. You know, people say something, some things to me sometimes, and I have briefly hurt my feelings about it. That's not a sin either. It's just, I notice it. And most of the time I just noticed it and then see what's next. And what's next. Almost always is wrapped in compassion that someone's scared. And that's all, it's nothing to do about that. Just listen. But it doesn't mean that I didn't have this knee jerk little out. I think those things keep coming up so you can just see them for what they are. You just get to practice. Oh, Nope. Not going there. It'll come. You just get to practice seeing them for what they are. So did that answer your question, Angus? Yeah, absolutely. I kind of love this idea that those things are going to come up and that's an opportunity to sort of trust in this sort of divine brewery of new thoughts and possibility where we have everything that we need on tap. And we just have to trust that that wisdom will come through. It's always flowing, always available. It's going to come, it's going to come anyway. But it doesn't mean that you might ignore it. I mean, you wait, just plunge ahead down the rabbit hole, whatever but point is. It's not that it's not that it's there only if you believe in it. Yeah. It's always flowing. It's kind of like gravity. I mean, I don't believe in gravity. No, it's, don't be jumping off roofs and expect something good to happen. So it's like, it's just the way we're made. And we're made that way. Whether we believe it or not, whether we remember it or not, whether somebody can prove or not, we're still made that way. He didn't make that up. He would say he would talk about the intelligence behind life, kind of sorta to sit in a, in the corner, twiddling his thumbs, waiting for us to get over ourselves. Yeah. And he funny, he's just, she just says a great way at same things. And that metaphor of gravity I think is, is so appropriate because when we understand and have a felt sense of who we are, what we're made of, what's available to us in a really practical, ordinary way. When we understand that it makes life easier to cite. When we understand how gravity works, it makes life a whole lot easier and we get less hurt. And when we don't understand how it works, like if I think Angus is responsible for my feelings, if I think circumstances are the problem and that's what, what needs to be changed in order to feel good enough. Or if I think that somehow I'm not made of that intelligence and that I'm not worthy or good enough, then life is a lot more painful based on those misunderstandings It's supposed to be. Right. So you'll notice it's kind of like getting a rock in your shoe it's supposed to hurt. So you'll notice, I mean, it could do a lot of damage if you didn't notice it that's really handy, then it hurts. It's hand that hurts when you're misusing your own ability to create your life. We are really made handily. It is beautiful. I don't know. I feel like I've had some experiences lately when I love this idea that it is kind of so simple. It's so simple. And yet it seems sometimes so impossible to see for people. And even for myself at times, you know, I remember when I started, if I first started doing this work and sometimes I feel like I would be paying lip service to this understanding. And then I would be in a situation where the client or someone in a group would just suddenly have a moment of clarity where they just suddenly get it and they see it. And I'm kind of like, what, what have you seen really wanted to sort of like single them out? Like, please tell me, get down on my knees and begged them to tell me what they've seen. And it's just that moment where they've just tapped into truth and that window is opened. And it is just so simple. And it's just a case of just trusting that, you know, that it is kind of like that intelligence sitting in the wings, twiddling his thumbs is constantly there ever flying, always available to us. And yet we go on these, go off on these tangents of thought, Well, it's, it's interesting how, how you set this up. Trust that it's that the idea that we're made this, it's not just an idea. And, and we, we say things like that out of habit, like, well, the idea that this kind of tree should be put here and it's like, well, this is one possibility, and this is another possibility, but then there's this, then there's the admin. It's like, that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about what is, Hmm. It's what is already, it's not just the latest way to look at things. Yeah. Cause really, no thank you for, for pointing that out to me because I realize quite often I'll say like, I'll say things like that. And on some level that kind of goes against the grain of what I know is true. Did you feel, I didn't, I don't know if I did at that point, but I noticed that a lot and I have used that exact same term, this idea and felt like, yeah, it's kind of not an idea, but I haven't known how to articulate it in the moment per se, but it definitely feels like it's going against the grain of what I feel is true. That's great. That's a big thing you just saw. Yeah, no, absolutely. But I have a sort of vernacular that I'm all too familiar with. Well, I do too. And I've had, you know, I catch myself at it sometimes, but it's always helpful if somebody points it out to me. Cause it's like just, I just said it without thinking about it. Yeah. I'm trying to think now what else I say along those lines, but it's almost like there's some sort of little divine light bulb going off blinking. Well, you know what happens when you get, when you fall in love with like, you guys are both really good listeners, the better you get at listening, just noticing when you're just listening to your own mental activity. Just notice it because the minute you notice that you're not, does that make sense? It's like the minute you notice you're distracted. You're not. So if you to get really, really good at listening, just notice when you're not and everything clears up and there you are again. And then that's how you catch yourself using phrases or words that don't really reflect what you mean, but you didn't know what else to say. And it clears up like that. I love that. And there's, it's understandable with our language because most things that we're talking about in our language are subjective. They are ideas. And what we're pointing to can't really be said in a way that doesn't sound subjective, but it it's like, how do you say something isn't other than pointing to it. And as you said at the very beginning, Mavis, like we feel truth. Like that's the best recognition of it. We feel it. And as Angus, you mentioned, they often we get welled up. And often like for me, I feel like my heart feels more open as I'm sitting here listening and speaking with you, I feel really open-hearted and peaceful. Like I noticed the state of mind that I am in just dropping into this space, being with you. And, and as you've said in the past, I've heard you say you're a really good pointer to what is true. And that ability to point people to see that for themselves is I think just what everybody needs and where healing really comes from for all of us, is being able to look to that space within ourselves, where we can feel what's true and act from that place in our lives, You didn't start feeling good. Cause you were with me, you started feeling differently because you let go of the noise. I don't make that happen for anybody. Okay. I'll take credit for walking my talk most of the time, but I don't, I can't take credit for whatever anybody else decides to do or not to. So I know that sounds picky. I understand that. But I want, I want people to know that if they're listening to me and they, and they start feeling the way they wish it gives you all the time. It's because what they quit doing, they made that happen and that's portable. Hm. Yeah. Wouldn't it be really dumb if the only time people could feel good as if they were with me, you'd make a lot of money. Cause I'm 81. I right. Gotta be around, you know, the wheels when they go to hell when I'm gone. I don't think so. I, again, I know that that sounds cheeky, but I it's important that you take responsibility for the state of mind. You're in, don't give it to me. I hear you. Okay. That's a really great point to underline as well for our listeners And even in your teaching too, you know, it's like are a little stupid egos and oh, so nice. Everybody thinks I'm into that. That's not important. It's it's not, it's not important. It's I don't need, I don't need people to give me credit for how they feel in order for me to feel important. I want people to know, they know what I know. They already know it. I just want them to trust them, just try it on for size. See what happens. It's one of the things that you've said in the past, again, you know, I heard it in my own inimitable way, but that, that you have, I kind of got the sense that you have such trust in that intelligence, coursing through your veins or through your vocal chords, as it were that sometimes things come out of your mouth. You don't, you said you didn't know what would come out of your mouth. You were kind of excited because you didn't know what was going to come out of your mouth. That's true. And I was thinking that one of my difficulties around listening, and I think that probably would have been one of the things that I, you know, it's kind of nice to hear you say that we're good listeners. I know that Rohini is a really good listener. I think this is something that I have been challenged with because I have, I have grown up or grown up at the grand old age at 61. I'm still growing hopefully, but I have grown up believing that I, you know, on some level I'm not very articulate. So one of the ways where I stopped listening is I start to panic about my presentation in terms of how I'm going to articulate myself. Even earlier in this conversation Rohini had shared. And my mind started to go off on a tangent about how, or what am I going to say? I need to say something that's on point something that's articulate. And that's me not. That's me not listening in the moment. So it's all about trusting. I just need to show up and listen deeply. And I have everything at my disposal to articulate myself in the moment. But you also were watching yourself, scare yourself, scare myself. Yeah. That's how that's really helpful. Don't you think It is? It is very helpful Because that's how you, you, oh, I was scaring this. Oh, okay. I'm back home now. Okay. Yeah. I didn't think about it. I didn't think about it on those terms, but that's exactly what I was doing. And You've done that four or five times in this talk. Yes. And that is really handy. Yeah. Cause it helps me become a better listener. You catch yourself when you're not. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. West. Before I just go on, off on a tangent rainy, are you going to shut up? I'm going to forget what I need to say. That smart here. It's going to be completely irrevelant by the time it gets to me, It's so funny. Angus thinks or has said that I talk a lot and I'm like, I don't talk a lot Because I'm having to hold on to my script that I developed for myself. The best thing is the script can fall away. It's the best thing ever, because then you just show up and you just trust in that wisdom coming through. And it's just such a good feeling. We're hilarious. That's funny. It's just funny to watch us. But yeah, it is, it is true that I have and I, and I want to have even more faith in how I made than I have now. But even if this is the least I'll ever know I'm okay. But it is interesting. I remember the first time I, I was giving a talk. I remember the name of the talk it's called what's love, got to do with it. And I, and I was giving it to at a conference for people that do we do. And I had a script for cards. I knew what I wanted to talk about. Did that. I walked up onto the stage and I knew I couldn't talk about it that way. Oh no, wait a minute. So I just started talking. I have no idea what he said, none, but afterwards that was my first kind of noticeable experience, but that was probably 35 years ago. My first noticeable experience with, because it was really, really well received and my daughter was there and I trust daughter. She anyway assured me that I didn't, I wasn't stupid. So I, I got, I got interested in that and her and hearing what I had to say when my ego or my memory wasn't involved in it. And there got to be more and more times that that happened so that I just, I just trusted that that was an authentic, it's a really good place to do my work from and found out that was portable too. And you know, I could, and, and so it it's always been since then, interesting to come to whatever I'm doing. I can hardly wait to hear what they have to say, because it's like, it's like educating yourself at the same time that you're passing on. You know, you're hearing it for the first time, just like I am. That makes sense. And I can make that deal with anybody, even if they don't know. I love that self education piece because it's true when we are listening in that way, it's, it's fresh, new thinking that comes in. And that's where, where our insights come from. Ultimately, like we surprise ourselves in that way. So often in terms of deepening that trust and that knowing of who we are And as best we can, we don't want to make that seem magical. It's like, all you're seeing with me is I just been at this awhile, you know, I've, I've, I've had a lot of practice, you know, trusting that I have, I have what I need and it'll show up when I need it in the form. I need it for as much as I needed it just, I'm not personally that smart. So I couldn't arrange things that well, but I'm already made able to do that. And I just trust that. But I also know I'm not making any different than anybody else. I just, this is what it looks like doing banana in a while. That's all. And sometimes I forget, And that doesn't look quite like this. Yeah. And we can be at it for a while and still forget. And that's okay. Right. It's not a sin. And that, that humidity is so important too. Isn't it? Just to, to realize that we're all cut from the same cloth on that level. We, no one has a greater access to it than anybody else. No, we're all drinking from the same. Well, Right. I love to hear what you have to say. Maybe it's always, I don't do, actually. I know I get that, but, but, and you're a real truth teller and I think that's why you always touched me so deeply whenever I, whenever I, you know, have this opportunity to talk to you, It's a pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. Really grateful. And, and we know that as you said, that this space that we dropped into is within ourselves. You don't create it. And because you've been doing this for a while, it seems to happen pretty consistently. And when we're in your presence, let's just say that you're not required. We, we, it is portable. And so you let go of everything. That's portable. It is portable. I Love the port. I love the portability factor. It's new. And, and it's a great reminder for all of us that this is a space within ourselves. It's not something that comes from outside of us. And we can have an open mind about this space. Like you're saying, we, on some level, you've, we've been conditioned to expect it when we're around your brain, it makes us more prone to fall into it, but it's just a falling into it. It happens all the time happens, you know, every day on some level we get into that space. And it's just the feeling of that space is, is helpful feedback as well, because it does feel so good. We want to spend more time there. Yeah. Angus, thank you. Mavis. It's been a real joy and really appreciate all of the work that you're doing and sharing in the community. And I'll look for that link that you mentioned about the listening series and let our listeners know. I can't wait to find it. Thank you for sharing. Thanks. Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there. ITunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships. If you would like to learn more about our work and our online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewilders.org. Thanks for listening. Join us next week.