EP32 Yael Abramson: Rewilding Mental Health

**Warning: This episode contains a discussion of sexual violence and suicidal ideation. Please use discretion if you are sensitive to these topics.**

Yael Abramson was so generous with us in sharing her life experience and mental health journey. Yael demonstrates our innate resilience and ability as human beings to find freedom from the suffering brought about by hardships and traumas that so many of us are unfortunately confronted with in our lives.

For many years, Yael felt at the mercy of manic episodes and periods of deep depression that included persistent suicidal ideation. While she found some initial help from medication, it wasn't until she learned about the role of thought in her mental health that she experienced a tremendous shift in perspective that freed her up to find her own voice. And through her participation in the Rewilding Community, Yael has found deeper peace within herself  regarding her gender expression and sexuality. 

Yael helps us see that even the more dire-seeming mental illness diagnoses are not as fixed as society would have us think. Since Yael no longer sees the voice in her head as an authority, she no longer struggles with mania and suicidal ideation. And she is no longer frightened by her memories. Yael shares that she is now free. 

This episode explores:

• Overcoming mental illness
• How self-acceptance is healing
• The power of a shift in understanding
• Finding your voice when you don't feel you belong
• Healing from trauma and  feeling free

Show Notes
If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please consider reaching out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, you are not alone.
If you or someone you know is suffering or has suffered from sexual violence, please consider reaching out to the confidential National Sexual Assault Hotline. You are not alone.

Yael Abramson is a Three Principles practitioner, a life coach, and a Rewilding Guide. She is also a facilitator of the Missing Link book club in Hebrew and works with a group of people translating the many books available about this understanding for the Hebrew-speaking community. Yael also has a private counseling practice. As a young person struggling with mental illness, Yael felt that she was broken. After coming across the understanding behind rewilding she slowly started to feel free, ultimately finding more feelings of security and peace of mind.

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.

Episode 32  features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.

See full show notes here

Transcript

Rohini Ross (0s):
This episode contains some discussion of sexual violence and suicidal ideation that may be sensitive to some listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

Angus Ross (14s):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross (22s):
This is episode number 32 an interview with Yael Abramson.

Yael Abramson (30s):
I have never opened a self-help book in my life.

Angus Ross (35s):
As soon as you try and put form on something that's formless, you're already barking up the wrong tree.

Yael Abramson (40s):
I had this little thing in my mind that was telling me what to do and discovering years later that that's called thought.

Rohini Ross (49s):
We're helping wake them up to their health and their wellbeing and who they really are. And when they see that they have realizations and insights that transform their life,

Yael Abramson (1m 1s):
I didn't even call it depression because I didn't know that it was called depression

Angus Ross (1m 5s):
The analytical mind is constantly looking for that secret process or technique when it was just a case of just seeing something from a different vantage point with a different set of optics.

Yael Abramson (1m 17s):
And I guess that's, that's, that's how it happened. Like from being very, very, very low for a long time, it just went to the other side

Rohini Ross (1m 26s):
And there isn't really a separation between thought feeling and who we are. It's just all part of the same beautiful energy of life.

Yael Abramson (1m 34s):
The frame around it changed completely. And then I was free.

Angus Ross (1m 40s):
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross (1m 45s):
and me, Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross (1m 47s):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross (1m 50s):
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded.

Angus Ross (1m 57s):
Listen in as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work

Rohini Ross (2m 4s):
And how it has helped them in their relationships,

Angus Ross (2m 8s):
Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross (2m 17s):
I loved speaking with Yael Abramson today. It was a really profound interview and she's a wonderful counselor. She's also a certified rewilding guide. And so I'm proud to have her as one of the members of that community.

Angus Ross (2m 33s):
Yeah. Well, I love speaking to her more. For those that couldn't see that Rohini kicked my mic and I practically swallowed it. I don't know what kind of sound effects came out of that, but we'll see. So she facilitates a Missing Link book club in Israel, and obviously that book has been translated into Hebrew. And it's my understanding that she also is involved in a group who is steadily translating many of the different books that are out there focusing on this understanding into Hebrew. So what an incredible service that she's providing. And I imagine what an incredible opportunity to learn more about the principles through translating these texts.

Rohini Ross (3m 18s):
I would imagine that would work exactly that way. Yeah,

Angus Ross (3m 21s):
Yeah, for sure. And she seems very well versed in this understanding on the interview and its contents does is profound as far as I can see far as I'm concerned.

Rohini Ross (3m 30s):
Yeah. I'm really grateful that she was willing to share with us and be so open. And I'm really hoping that this helps to de-stigmatize mental health issues and to really normalize the whole experience, the full range of human psychology and take away any stigma and shame from some experiences that can happen for people, whether it's depression, whether it's bipolar, whether it's navigating PTSD, that these aren't things that need to be kept in the shadows, that it it's actually really helpful to just be able to have them out in the open and talk about those experiences.

Angus Ross (4m 8s):
Yeah. And it was amazing for me, cause I guess I do get the opportunity to sit down with a, quite a few people who would have those labels, those mental health issues, and then to see someone come out the other side and have that level of insight into her own experience and what she's been through and then able to articulate how she came out. The other side, I think is of enormous value because I think a lot of people who get those labels perhaps then feel like, oh, you know what, there's the label. This is who I am. And I kind of have to deal with this for the rest of my life. And there's little hope in that for a lot of people. And I think that this conversation provides a lot of hope and she gets to see how she comes out the other side through having a whole different relationship with her thinking and a realization of who she is at her core, that that puts in are in a position where she starts to really see her own innate wellbeing.

Rohini Ross (5m 13s):
Yeah. And I think that's where the understanding that we work from that's behind our rewilding metaphor is so profound and powerful because we're really looking to people's strengths and we're looking to their health and we're helping wake them up to their health and their wellbeing and who they really are. And when they see that they have realizations and insights that transform their life, whether it's relationships in the area that we're working in or whether it's related to other life issues, those insights show up and allow people to function at a whole different level.

Rohini Ross (5m 58s):
Yeah. And it

Angus Ross (5m 59s):
Still, I don't know, it kind of perplexes me as well because it does feel like that wellbeing is veiled and that when people really get a taste of it, it's so difficult to put form on it and to articulate it. And I, for sure struggle with trying to put form on what is essentially something that is formless and yet said, banks always told us and let us know, notice, know that as soon as you try and put form on something, that's formless, you're already barking up the wrong tree. So again, it's such a personal experience. And I think that's why story is so important. People that are able to share that personal story and how they did get to the other side.

Angus Ross (6m 39s):
And it is something that's so difficult to articulate in a way where you start to really tap into your essential nature. How do you articulate that? How do you put form on that? And I feel like she did an amazing job, but it's still something that's difficult probably for other people to grasp because it's kind of like, oh, what is she seeing? What insight she had, what got her to that place? And I think our analytical mind is constantly looking for that magic bullet or that a secret process or technique when it was just a case of just seeing something from a different vantage point with a different set of optics. And they got a taste of that well-being and it was really invigorating and liberating and beautiful.

Angus Ross (7m 24s):
And what are the other adjectives are out there that sort of describe that place of sublime serenity? I don't know, but I'm so hungry to hear of people's experiences around that because that is the sweet spot and she takes us there beautifully.

Rohini Ross (7m 41s):
Yeah. I love that. You're saying that Angus, because it isn't as if Yale shared something that it's like, oh, now I can do what she did. And I'm going to have that too. What she's really pointing to is that it's through accessing, experiencing that place within ourselves, that we get our own realizations, that we get what we need and that it doesn't really matter what the content of Yale's story is. Her life experiences, her life experience, but what she's pointing to is hopeful for all of us, no matter what we have going on in our life. And that it's through accessing that space of quiet space of love, that space of knowing within ourselves that we are able to hear our own common sense and wisdom, and we get what we need in the moment.

Angus Ross (8m 34s):
It kind of makes me think of life being a little bit like amaz, where we're looking for fruit, you know, we're looking for that freedom and all along the maze was just an illusion and that freedom was always there for us. And all of a sudden that apparition, that illusion falls away, you suddenly experienced this, the sense of enormous liberation and the people that I've spoken to that can describe those moments of awakening. That kind of feels, that's kind of like what it seems like it's the illusion has just suddenly dropped away and they realize, oh wow, I'm free.

Rohini Ross (9m 7s):
Yeah, I'm good to go. All of a sudden we get to see things clearly. And I think that I don't want to make this out to be like, this is just some one-off peak experience. Like this is the practical ordinariness of life. We can have a new vantage point day to day, and we're going to get caught up day to day. Like I'm thinking about when I asked you to get the oatmeal start my maze you're in the maze.

Angus Ross (9m 37s):
My maze came back into realization very quickly.

Rohini Ross (9m 42s):
You were amazed runner.

Angus Ross (9m 44s):
I was amazed runner getting lost in the maze.

Rohini Ross (9m 49s):
You want to add some context to that story?

Angus Ross (9m 51s):
Well, I guess the only context that I can add would be that I got into a very low mood about a very unrelated issue and decided to let the request for oatmeal from stock X, which sounds so ridiculous. Now become the fall guy for that low mood.

Rohini Ross (10m 10s):
And I want to know that you weren't going to Starbucks. I didn't ask you to just go and get mail from Starbucks. You were on your way to start it and said, do you want an, a thing and little innocent old me said, yeah, I'd love to get,

Angus Ross (10m 21s):
Well, there was certain amount of that branch. And in terms of asking if you wanted anything, cause I feel like living with three ladies in my household, whenever I asked them what they want from the store or what they want in terms of food, I'm going to get food or any form of libation usually usually involves some sort of bizarre request or I'm going to have to sort of articulate some sort of strange ingredients. I have some thinking around what that server is going to think of me. And quite often I get that I get the ingredients wrong because there was always so many of them. So I just wanted on this occasion for, for rainy to be very specific about her demands so that I could be free of any recrimination on the other end when I returned.

Angus Ross (11m 6s):
So I was already getting irritated about how she just asked for oatmeal when I knew that it would just not be just oatmeal. There'll be some whole procedure that the people at Starbucks had to follow. And so I was pressing that point, but she maintained her stance that it needed to be oatmeal. And upon my return, I had lo and behold had made a mistake, but then I, then I was able to say, I was very specific in my request about, you know, what you needed to tell me. And evidently it fell short. So I did, I kind of made you the fall guy. And that was all about state of mind. I think under any normal circumstances, I would have probably seen the humor in that and how ridiculous that was, but I was holding onto something else that was of much deeper concern to me.

Angus Ross (11m 52s):
And it's so interesting. See how in that moment that I made you the full guy and I made oatmeal, the problem.

Rohini Ross (11m 60s):
And just to clarify, I asked for some oatmeal with some milk on the side, often Hoff, okay. Half and half on the side and Angus brings it back. And with the oatmeal, it cooks in the packaging that it's in. And so we're getting ready for a wedding. And I went to eat my oatmeal. It's just dry. Well, why would they do that?

Angus Ross (12m 27s):
So many, but I, I fulfilled my part of the bargain. I said, can I have oatmeal with half and half on the side, which were my exact instructions. And then lo and behold, lo and behold, they hadn't put the hot water in, which is fairly bizarre behavior,

Rohini Ross (12m 43s):
But thank you for getting the hot water from

Angus Ross (12m 45s):
Me, but I did lose my snot and I got upset. And, and that would be an example of me taking out my low mood or looking for my guests. My ego, my analytical mind is just looking for, for a reason why I feel this way. I don't like this feeling. I don't wake up. I don't like waking up and feeling this way, but I wasn't even that conscious of, you know, how distraught I was feeling. And then that became an easier, easy focal point.

Rohini Ross (13m 13s):
Well, and the reason that I brought that up is because I think what Yale's pointing to is helpful in those situations too. It doesn't have to be something really big or extreme. Even our day to day. Things like oatmeal without any water in it are examples of how we get caught up in thought. And when we let that go, we drop into a peaceful feeling. And when we just start to see how that is, the human condition, the human condition is to get caught up in thought, have the experience of what that feels like when we're caught up in thought. And then the mind naturally drops it at some point. And then we get to feel the peace and the wellbeing that has been there all along. But for the fact that we were caught up in thoughts, right?

Angus Ross (13m 55s):
And I do like that metaphor of it being like I'm amazed runner is almost like the maze reappears. Every time I get caught up in my thinking, and then I'm running around looking for the exit, which is exactly what I'm doing. I'm running around looking for an exit from this feeling. And if I can blame it on someone else that will hopefully get me to my destination that much quicker.

Rohini Ross (14m 17s):
Yeah. You think I'm the exit and then you get to the exit and it's not it. You get really mad.

Angus Ross (14m 22s):
Yeah. There's another amaze I have to go through and like get even more mad. The maze is ever expanding three-dimensional

Rohini Ross (14m 29s):
Chess game.

Angus Ross (14m 31s):
It is. And it is just a case of, you know, when we can finally get to a place of, you know, where, where we start to settle, the maze starts to dismantle itself of its own accord.

Rohini Ross (14m 42s):
And I think it's a really important point that I want to emphasize is that we don't need to do anything about the maze. We just need to wake to the fact that we're caught up in the illusion of the maze and that does everything for us, even if we don't get out of the maze immediately, just knowing that makes a big difference.

Angus Ross (15m 2s):
Yeah. And I think a lot of people live their lives. It reminds me of that story about the old, the fable, whatever it was of the Indian elephant. That, and I think this continues to this day where they tie an Indian elephant to a stake in the ground via a chain. And that elephant would be remaining at that stake for some long period of time. I don't know at what point they could do it. And as an adult, I guess for a year or so as a baby,

Rohini Ross (15m 26s):
Because it can't lift it out. But as an adult, it

Angus Ross (15m 29s):
Can fable more than I do. Yes. And then ultimately they take the steak out and the elephant doesn't know any better. It just know that actually it's free to roam and do whatever it wants because it still thinks it's tied to the stake. I think that we go through our lives, through our programming and our conditioning, believing that that means is, is still there. And that's the beauty of this understanding. You realize it's all an illusion, it's all the illusion of thought and what happened last week, last year when we were kids, whatever it was, it's like, that's not happening today. But in our mind we regenerate that experience and believe that it is happening today, or it feels like it feels like it's happening today. And we suffer.

Rohini Ross (16m 8s):
Yeah. And that, even though we have this amazing capacity for thought and we can get gripped in it, it can be beautiful. It can be horrifying that that isn't who we are. In addition to our thoughts and our feelings, we have this deeper presence within ourselves that is love. That is that quiet, that Yale talked about and that we can listen for that and we can open our heart to that. And we can really allow ourselves to let that be what guides our lives more and more.

Angus Ross (16m 37s):
Yeah, no, absolutely. There's something also interesting about the idea that the, I don't know if I can't remember where I read this, that the, and this is perhaps very on a very simplistic level than probably there's a greater way of looking at it from a vantage point of science, but that the body doesn't, or the body, the feelings in our physiology, our emotions, I guess doesn't know the difference between a real experience and an imagined experience. So we can re we can regurgitate an experience that we've had in the past. That sounds such an awful way of descoped describing me, but I'll go with it anyway. And then our physiology and our emotions are actually kind of responding in the same way as, as we had when we had that experience in the past.

Rohini Ross (17m 19s):
Well, that's what they often have athletes do, is they have athletes. Imagine the race or whatever the event is. And the body, the muscles within the body even respond to this

Angus Ross (17m 31s):
Positive is like, sort of imagining when, you know, crossing the finishing line. That's the sort of positive spin on it, but we can, it can work in, in, in the other direction and be really problematic.

Rohini Ross (17m 42s):
And what's even more liberating is when we don't have anything on our mind. And I remember hearing a story about think it was racers preparing for the, one of the track and field events for the Olympics and the coach was having them run timing. And then he said, I'm not going to time. You just do whatever you do. And most of the runners got a better time when they thought they weren't being timed.

Angus Ross (18m 6s):
Isn't that amazing? Yeah. I had a similar story. I think this was some George Pransky about typists that in the old days before there were word processes and there wasn't spellcheck, you know, and they had to get their tip out. That's what it was called. Wasn't it, paper, paper, that's it. And they'd have to make their corrections that way. And then when, what processes came in and spellcheck became into, came into, into being then their typing skills kind of went through the roof because they didn't have to live under that same pressure of making mistake. It's kind of fascinating what we do with ourselves and I'm thinking,

Rohini Ross (18m 50s):
Yeah, well, I'm really looking forward to hearing the rest of the episode.

Angus Ross (18m 54s):
No, absolutely. We've kind of gone off on quite a tangent, but it's all, I feel very on point. Well, we hope you enjoy listening to them. Yeah. And Yale takes obviously a much more deeper and I guess in a more profound,

3 (19m 8s):
We'll turn it over to her.

Rohini Ross (19m 19s):
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for being with us today. We're really looking forward to having this conversation with you.

Angus Ross (19m 27s):
I'm so looking forward to this conversation, I think that we're, we're really in, for a treat today. So I'm really, I feel like we're really blessed to have you on this podcast. Thank you. Thank you.

Rohini Ross (19m 39s):
And so one of the things that Angus and I talked about is that you've had such an incredible journey in terms of how you've been impacted by this understanding. And I know that you've been actively involved in the rewilding community and the rewilding guide program, but even before you started working with us, you've had some really profound impact from your life based on shifts that you've experienced. And we thought that that would be really helpful for our listeners to hear about because in the podcast, the first sessions with the couple were using an understanding that was supportive to that couple.

Rohini Ross (20m 20s):
And that's what Angus and I use in our work when we're working with couples or individuals, but we are doing these interviews so that people can get a sense of the depth that's available in this understanding and how it impacts lives and how profound it is and how practical it is and how simple it is. So, you know, you have a lot to share regarding this. So Angus and I are looking forward to hearing more about that. Yeah. I think

Angus Ross (20m 50s):
That there are so many examples of people having to go through traumatic experiences in their lives and that there would be an assumption that with how you get beyond that, there needs to be some sort of technique or process. And I think that what we're talking about is that you get through that through awareness and through understanding, and that's something that's so intangible and something so hard for sometimes for people to articulate. But the more that we can have people like you to come on and articulate how they've managed to get through that. I think that that becomes a great pointer. And I think that that's part of the reason why we have been doing these interviews is to give more clarification around that it is around awareness and it's not about some magic bullet or technique.

Angus Ross (21m 39s):
Yeah. So we'd love for you to start wherever you feel comfortable in terms of sharing your experience and you know, what that was like coming across this understanding and go from there.

Yael Abramson (21m 53s):
So let me say, I, I have never opened a self-help book in my life. I have went through, I would say a happy childhood, but with a very, very busy mind. And I think that looking back, the thing that I suffered from the most, and I knew that I was suffering from it. And I had this little thing in, in my mind that was telling me what to do. And discovering years later, that that's called thought. I really didn't know. I was so afraid that I was already crazy before I was diagnosed, that I was ashamed of telling people about my problems.

Yael Abramson (22m 41s):
Like I grew up with nine siblings, there was always something going on. And my job was as the fourth child was to help, you know, it was kind of the deal to take care of your siblings to cook the shop. And I loved it, but in a very young age, I put a lot of pressure on me to get things done, to clean up. I, I just, I thought that if the house is just clean and if my brother and sisters just stop yelling for a second, this thing in my mind will stop. And, and just the not knowing that everyone has that, I thought I was the only one I thought, what is this thing that's telling you what to do?

Yael Abramson (23m 28s):
And I have no choice, but to listen to it. So I went on suffering from this thing that I have in my mind from this thought process, always kind of abusing myself without knowing and was with bipolar when I was 24. And I went through a very hard time.

Rohini Ross (23m 52s):
Yeah. Could you, could you share just a little bit about how it went from, you know, having a busy mind to then actually getting that diagnosis? What, what was the impetus for getting that as a label for yourself?

Yael Abramson (24m 6s):
I think that in a certain, in a certain time, my mind became so busy that I never lived now. I was always a million miles away from my life and I didn't know what quiet was. Looking back. My first diagnosis. I had no idea what was going on. I had a crazy manic episode, you know, by the books. But if I go back a little more, I was kind of depressed. I don't know. I didn't even call it depression because I didn't know that it was called depression. Because again, I didn't talk then one about what was going on in my mind.

Yael Abramson (24m 49s):
So I looked like a person who was functioning. I always worked, I took care of myself, but I, since I was 17, I kept on moving from New York to Israel every few months. Like every time I missed my family, I, I made a ticket. And while I, while, you know, while I was getting ready to fly, I didn't want, I didn't really want to go anymore. I was okay where I was, but the idea that that's going to make me feel even better than I feel now, because what's going to happen there. And I, and I kept on trying to, to be okay to be calm, to know what I'm supposed to do.

Yael Abramson (25m 34s):
And I didn't, I didn't know what to do. I grew up in a very religious environment and I was just supposed to be like, you know, a mom and you know, married to a rabbi and have a lot of kids and worship God. And I didn't know what I was supposed to do. I didn't know anything about the world. So everywhere I hung out everything, I heard the people I met, I was always very afraid of them. I was very afraid of meeting new people because what if they say something and they talk about, I dunno, the Amazons and I don't know what the Amazons are.

Yael Abramson (26m 16s):
So I was, felt like a missing out on something. Like there's something I don't know. And I should know <inaudible> may I ask

Rohini Ross (26m 42s):
You how you ended up in New York? What, what,

5 (26m 45s):
At what age? And, and, and what were the reasons why you came to the states?

Yael Abramson (26m 51s):
My parents moved from New York and Waterbury, Connecticut. I came to Israel, became religious, had a family. And I had a grandmother in New York. And when I was struggling, I think I was about 17. And I told my mom, I can't stay in this school anymore. Can't stay in this. You know, like they're teaching me these things that have to make no sense for me. I just want to be doing things with my hands. And I just want to be, I just want to do things that I enjoy. And I don't want to sit in school all day. I want to work. I want to help people.

Yael Abramson (27m 31s):
And she said, you know, I'll make you a deal. If you, if you tell me you're going to stay in school till the end of the year, I'll take you with me on a book tour. My mom went through a very bad fire and she survived and she wrote a book about it. And she would go around once a year to New York and London, she would tell about, she would talk about her story. So I was like, okay, that's a great deal. I could be bored in school for four months. I don't care. I just want to go. So I was there for three weeks. I went with my mom. I went to a museum. I went to the, to the, I think it was the natural history museum.

Yael Abramson (28m 13s):
And I remember looking like, like the first time, like I, I landed in New York and I, I didn't understand the concept of other contents. I'm 17 years old. I didn't know that there's America. I knew that my grandparents lived there. I knew that people live, but I didn't know. I didn't understand that. There's like this concept of a world. And there was so much going around, like going to the museum and like, oh, people go to museums. What do you do here? It's like, you look at art. What is art? Like, I had no idea about almost anything.

Yael Abramson (28m 53s):
So three weeks later, my mother's like, okay, we're going home. I'm like, I really don't want to go. But, and my grandmother lived in the west village. So it's like the hippest place ever. You know, I learned like, you know, everyone wants to come here and I'm like, why does everyone want to come here? What, you know, same houses, different stores, different clothes, a variety of people that I always enjoyed, you know, hanging around and sing. But there was just always something like missing. Like, I was always this like fear inside of me that, that I don't know. And I'm just not enough. And I'll never understand.

Yael Abramson (29m 35s):
So we get back to Israel and I decided that I'm starting to work because I better go back to my grandmother. She did not judge me. She was not religious. She just let me, you know, she like just let's, you know, do whatever you want. And you know, maybe work a little, don't be so bored. But she was very kind. She was very, very kind. And I think it was about six months later that I made enough money to go and work, to go to New York. And I told my parents that, you know, I called my grandmother. I asked her if I could come. And she said, yes. And they didn't know what to do because my oldest sister already left and she liked, never stayed in the tradition.

Yael Abramson (30m 21s):
And you know, they were very, they were worried. They couldn't take care of me when I wasn't there. And I remember telling my mom, look, if you don't let me go because I wasn't 18 yet. So if you don't let me go, I'm just going to go live somewhere else in Israel till I'm 18. And then I'm going to fly or I'm just going to like kill myself. Like I can't stay here anymore. Like I never really said how I felt. I never really talked about how I felt. So when I did, it was like a bullet, because I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to contact. I didn't know how to connect. I didn't know how to be gentle even with myself.

Yael Abramson (31m 4s):
So it was either like, I'm okay. Or like always on fire. And I just started, I just went to New York. My parents let me go. I started working in these random jobs, you know, mostly with Israelis, starting to learn a little bit about life and how it goes. And I basically watched TV most of the time. I thought that that's how you learn about life. So my grandmother told me like, you know, get off that garbage. I'm like, why, what, you know, what should I be doing? It's like I did, I didn't have the direction.

Yael Abramson (31m 48s):
And I did that back and forth for about at least like four years. One day I read in the moose in the Hebrew most paper that there was this combat unit in the army, the Israeli army that, you know, women can become combat fighters. And I had an idea that I should go to the army and be there for two years and finish something. Because in my mind, I never, I didn't, I didn't finish school. I was like always missing out. And I said, you know, I went to the army. I was there for two years. Still had no idea what was going on.

Yael Abramson (32m 29s):
Didn't know I was a great shooter. You know, I was a great, I followed ordered orders very well, right? Because someone tells you what to do. You're in the army. You do it. But I didn't realize that my friends around me don't listen to all the orders. So they thought, I'm this nerd. That's always doing what I'm supposed to do. So no matter what I did, I was always doing the wrong thing. I think it was two years. I was 20 years in the army. And I, I already decided that when I get out of the army, I'm going back to my grandmother's house because she was, she was already 94 years old and she was functioning and everything.

Yael Abramson (33m 15s):
But I just really loved spending time with her. And I just wanted to go back. And the few months when I was finishing the army, one of my sisters had a like first manic outbreak. And I was kind of taking care of her with my parents. We were like, following her. We didn't really know what was going on with her. But we were like walking around, looking for her in different cities, hearing all these like crazy stuff, getting attacked by her. And I think that when I left Israel, I was very, very worried about her and very worried about myself.

Yael Abramson (33m 56s):
And I think that I was like worried all the time, all the time, like what it's going to be with me? Who am I going to be? What am I going to do? What do I like, do I like to do woodworking? Or am I going to do cooking? Like, I didn't know how to think about anything. And I kept on like, okay, you just don't know. You just don't know. You just don't know. And there was no one to talk to about it. I didn't know that people go to a psychologist. I didn't know that people get help. I didn't know that people read books. You know, maybe there are good ideas in there. And that time when I, when I got back to my grandmother, I remember that I became so depressed.

Yael Abramson (34m 38s):
And so self-conscious even more than I was all my life that I was working at a coffee shop downstairs. And I remember every morning waking up and not knowing what black t-shirt to wear. Like it's a plain black t-shirt. I was like, look, I'm like this one. No, I was so afraid of talking to people that when I went to work, they, they told me, look, you have to decorate the cakes because I couldn't ask the customers, what coffee what'd you like? That was like the level of, and I had no idea what was going on with me. So a little, like after a few weeks that I was that I was like that when I realized that something's wrong and I didn't know what I called my sister that then lived in North Carolina.

Yael Abramson (35m 30s):
And I just asked her if I could come hang out with her, because to me being around family, even though it was so stressful, it was just like, it was freeing. It was like, I'm around family. So no matter what I'll be okay. And I went to her and I think I started smoking weed at that time. And I was like, always trying to like find things to like calm me down, which I think make things worse. A few weeks later we got a call. I don't remember how it happened when it happened, but my grandmother passed away.

Yael Abramson (36m 13s):
And that was like, wow. I think I was upset at myself a little that I didn't stay with her, but my grandmother was such a kind person that I knew that wasn't true. I knew she had a good life. I want to ask her about what, what lets her live this long. She said, I wake up in the morning. I, I have children, I have grandchildren.

Yael Abramson (36m 55s):
I read the newspaper. I'm just happy. And I know one day I'm going to move from this world. Then I'll meet my Sam again. And it was just simple. So knowing, knowing that was like, okay, but then the plan of living with my grandmother was like, you know, gone. Cause I thought I'll just stay with my sister for a while. I get my head together and then I'll live with her. And I remember also getting, you know, a call from my uncle. He said, you know, if you want to stay here, we'll like, no, fix up the house. We'll help you, you know, take the lease on your name.

Yael Abramson (37m 36s):
And I was like, I can stay here. I just can't. I don't, I don't like, I don't even know how to pay rent. I don't know what our utility bill looks like. And I was 24. I was, I think I was 22 years old, 23 years old, like all these things that I'm supposed to know. So when I, I moved back, I go back to Israel and I think that from being in a place, a, such a low place, getting back, meeting people, meeting my friends, some things started going very, very quickly.

Yael Abramson (38m 19s):
And I don't even know how it happened, but before I know it I'm have all these conspiracies about the world. I am acting weird. I'm probably awake more than I should. And it took like a few weeks till it became like a extra, you know, full manic situation. But I had no idea what was going on. Like to me, I got to state where I was a queen of the world. I was so high that everyone around me looked different.

Yael Abramson (39m 2s):
Like my friends, like I walked with my friends, I had this imagination that I'm like the queen, I don't know, Cleopatra. And like, my servants are walking with me. I, I started like imagining, like, you know, buying houses in every continent in the world and doing this kind of work. And like I'm building a school to help people. And like, I don't know all kinds of crazy stuff. And I guess that's, that's, that's how it happened. Like from being very, very, very low for a long time, it just went to the other side, being in the hospital.

Yael Abramson (39m 50s):
I don't think it helped me cause I had no idea what was going on. And in the, in that manic episode, I, I had this experience of one day. I was, I was, I was like a weekday because usually the bars are full. And I remember I walked into this bar and I had a drink and I left and a few minutes later I saw that like the guys that were sitting me sitting with me in this bar and it was a little strange for me. But when I, when I was like trying to get away from them, I couldn't get away.

Yael Abramson (40m 31s):
And I started feeling like, something's weird here, but in my mind, I'm in this high place. Like no one can hurt me. And I go towards this building that I actually lived in a few years before when I was in the army. So I kind of felt safe. I know where I'm going. And I remember like kind of waking up into this situation where there's like, like I'm, I'm being raped. Like that's where I wake up. I wake up into a situation that like, I have no idea how I got into it.

Yael Abramson (41m 15s):
And I remember like, I'm a very strong person, physically, very strong. I remember I didn't have strength to move this person off of me. Like I couldn't use my physical strength. And it was kind of like, like I was looking, I don't know I had this, like only after I started understanding a little about my life and my life has changed. I could go back and see that experience. And it was like, I was looking at myself, like I couldn't use my physical body because it kind of like, I wasn't in it.

Yael Abramson (41m 58s):
But the thing is, is that in that, in that, in that time where I was suffering so much, no one believed that it happened. Like years later I told my sister, we were just talking randomly. And she's like, oh, I, that really happened to you. We thought it's another made up story from all the conspiracies. But because that happened, I wasn't just in a manic episode, I was like in this, this belief that this would happen to me, like me, Yale, Abramson.

Yael Abramson (42m 40s):
Why would someone want, like, what am I not strong enough? How did it happen? You know, it's my fault. Then I taking care of myself and in that state, in the hospital, it's like, I already wanted it. I already wanted to die. Like I wanted to kill myself because the pain was too strong to, to deal with it. So in that place, I just, I started blaming the doctors for not understanding me for not listening to me for not believing me.

Yael Abramson (43m 24s):
And like all the, all the medication that they're trying to give me is like, what are you also trying to kill me? Like now is all confused. It's a big mush. Now. I had a good reason to suffer. Now I had a better excuse to suffer. So that is like a new stage of being the agonist. So now I have a diagnosis. Like I'll never be okay, even though I thought I'll be okay one day now I'll never be okay. I kind of gave myself to live a few years. I said 26, I think is a nice amount of years.

Yael Abramson (44m 7s):
I'll live till then. And then I'll, and then I'll die. You know, I'll I'll, if this suffering stays still, then you know, I'll at least give myself a chance and the suffering just got stronger. I remember after I think it was the second episode, because after the first one I took medication, I felt fine after a little while. And I said, okay, I don't need the medication anymore. So I went off it and then I had another manic episode and it's so weird because when I broke my hand in my life, you know, the doctors explain your, your bone is broken.

Yael Abramson (44m 55s):
We're going to put on a cast. The bonus is going to heal itself and then you won't need it anymore. But with this, with this mental diagnosis, it was so weird. It was like, no, one's telling you what's wrong with you. They just tell you, you have a chemical imbalance in your brain and just take these pills. You'll be okay forever. Now I was okay. I didn't go back to the hospital when I was on the pills, but I, I wasn't. Okay. I wasn't okay. And I wanted to be okay. I knew that I, like I knew inside of me that there were moments like being at a, at a party or being at a wedding or a moment where I wasn't thinking that I didn't even know that I wasn't thinking, but I was, I was better than other times.

Yael Abramson (45m 53s):
And I think it was like, like I was saying after like the second episode where I decided that, you know, I, I wanted to choose for myself a place to stay either Israel or New York, because I kept on going back. Like I flew in manic episodes. I don't know how I did. And now I got the money and how I got my passport, but I was all over the place. And I didn't know what it was, but I saw staying in place for a long enough time with the suffering will let me know that I'm okay.

Yael Abramson (46m 37s):
So I decided that, that I'm taking some time to think. And in that, in that few weeks, one of my friends arrived in Israel. He came to visit, we spoke a little and I, I told him, listen, I don't really know what I'm doing with myself, but, but I wanna, I want to do something. I want to work somewhere that will be like, you know, helpful for people and I'll enjoy it. And I was kind of talking to him and he said, you know, I think you should come work in the school that I work at. He works in the school with autistic children and they're looking for a teacher and, and you're the person for the student. I was like, what are you talking about?

Yael Abramson (47m 19s):
Like in my mind, I am, I am like, I'm dead in my mind. And he's like, no, yeah, you're the person I'm telling you, I'm going to talk to them. And if, if yes, like, you know, come to New York, you know, and like a week or two and, you know, find a place to live. You'll be fine. I'm telling you this, like this, you're the teacher for the student. And I had this fit in. Like, it's so weird that someone's telling me that I'm good for someone else, because I always know that it was a good person, but I felt that I was the one who was supposed to give all the time.

Yael Abramson (48m 4s):
And not like, not from a place that, how do I explain it? Like, like I'm not needed. It's just, I'm so used to giving that I need that. And it was like the first time someone told me, wow, you're going to be a great teacher for this person. I ended up talking to them. I flew, I flew to New York. I lived in Brooklyn, the schools in Brooklyn, a school for told them the autism private school. And this girl was, you know, the full package. And I had a really nice time working with her.

Yael Abramson (48m 46s):
I kept on pushing the school, even though I had no degree in education or special education, I connected with this person. I knew like I was, I was specifically a teacher of one student, but we have four students in the class. And, and, and I felt these kids and I knew what they were doing. I knew when they were playing around and they didn't want anyone to make them do anything. I knew when this girl is had enough and other teachers, like you're supposed to do the art therapy now. It's like, she just wants the bents. She's not going to do anything.

Yael Abramson (49m 26s):
She just wants to move. And I remember being so with these kids a hundred percent, like with them, every time I would go into my mind, I wanted to die. Every time I went into my mind, it was like, okay, when is that going to happen? When are you going to do

Angus Ross (49m 50s):
That? You know, like you have a plan.

Yael Abramson (49m 55s):
And I remember this, this time I was standing there,

Angus Ross (50m 1s):
14th street between J and K. And I'm having this wave of feelings

Yael Abramson (50m 11s):
And everything that's going on in my mind is it's because you were raped. It's because you're diagnosed. It's because you grew up in a religious home. It's because your parents it's because your neighbors make. And I just, I was like blowing up. And I think I was talking to someone on the phone trying to explain to them that I'm in so much pain, but I don't, I don't think I really knew I wasn't paying. It was just like all the world's problem and making me feel like this, but I wasn't even aware that I was feeling, I was just so mad, so mad and I was so upset.

Yael Abramson (50m 54s):
I was always like, I was okay. And then I was mad and I was okay. And then I was mad and I kind of, it was always looking at my roommates that really loved me. Like we grew up together, we lived together, we had an, I was like, how do you live with me? Like, in my mind, I was like, always judging myself and I'm not enough. And, and I thought if only my life story would be different. And if only I would be thinner because I was so big, then I bend down to pick up one of the kids in this school. And I couldn't cause I was so big.

Yael Abramson (51m 37s):
And I remember looking at one day, like looking in the mirror and looking at myself and my body. And I was having these thoughts again. If only I was thinner, everything, all my problems would go away and the next, and like, I kind of sat with that for a minute. I didn't know that I was just like, kind of like gazing into the mirror. And the next memory that came up was the time when I was very, very thin and I still wasn't.

Yael Abramson (52m 23s):
Okay. So I said, okay, if that's not the problem, my weight is not the problem. So I'm choosing to accept myself for who I am like this. And maybe even to love myself maybe, and I'll try it for a while and see if it works. And I did.

Yael Abramson (53m 7s):
And I remember starting to walk around with this idea of being grateful for what I don't have. Hmm. Like being grateful for that, that I'm upset. Like, okay, I'm a mad person. That's my personality. I'm a mad person. I don't have money. Okay. I would just, I kind of like walked around and every time I would get upset, I would kind of like get this thing in my mind. Okay. You could also be thankful for that.

Yael Abramson (53m 55s):
And I just want to want to tell a little, little story that happened to me because I think it happened right before this incident with the mirror. So one day someone asked me to do the afternoon school run. And I was very annoyed because the school bus who was the school bus is noisy. It had that engine and I already had a headache, 24, 7 24, 7. Like I already had a headache. But my routine was that when I get off work, I go home and I smoked myself to sleep till the next day. I hope that teachers don't listen to.

Yael Abramson (54m 39s):
Maybe they should, you know, like I would go home. And I, and I was so afraid of myself and what to do. I didn't know what to do. So I would just like, you know, knock myself out. And I said, you know what? I could just spend another few hours with the kids, even though it's going to be annoying. And I sat on this bus and the driver, I never spoke to him because we're always so busy with the kids. But slowly, slowly, the kids, you know, they, they were, you know, we were taking them home. So I sat with the driver, this beautiful African, probably like 60 years old, maybe even 70.

Yael Abramson (55m 27s):
And he said, and he says, you know, everybody's racist. I said, what do you mean I'm not racist. Now I have, in my mind, I grew up with African neighbors. I love them. They love me. I didn't know what color was till I moved to New York. I didn't know that there was a difference, like a lot of things I didn't know. And I said, and instead of saying all that, I asked him, what do you mean <inaudible>? And he said, you know, if you don't like the color green and you walk outside and you look at a tree and it has green leaves on it and you don't like it, you're racist towards that color, towards that tree.

Yael Abramson (56m 16s):
And I was shocked. It's like for the first time in my life, someone made me stop and I asked them, okay, tell me more. And it's funny because my headache went away. Hmm. And I was just listening to him and he said, where do you get off? I said, I don't know, just drive wherever you need to. I think I needed to hear this person when I got off that bus, it, it did something. And it, it, it did something in my mind because every time I looked at people that dressed, like my father, like religious Jews, I would get this thing about them.

Yael Abramson (57m 3s):
Right. So basically I was racist towards them. And I remember him telling me what, if you go outside and you look at a tree and you don't, and you know, nothing about it. And something is something, something happened to me. I didn't know what, but I started realizing that how much, I don't know about life, everything I look at, I have this thing that tells me a lot of stories about it. And I think it was about 12 years later that I came across this understanding.

Yael Abramson (57m 49s):
I was still going through a hard time. I still had another episode in between that time. And the first time that I sat and heard people talk about this understanding to me, it was like someone finally gave me a script to what's going on in my mind. And the first thing that happened was I started losing weight. Like in a very, like I started, I think I lost like 50 kilos in six months or something like that with no dieting.

Yael Abramson (58m 30s):
Maybe I did a little exercise, but I still ate the same. I started becoming less upset. And I didn't understand, I still didn't understand the why, but I kept on going back to this London conference. And I think it was like these, these few incidents happened to me where I was, you know, by this time when I came across this understanding, I think it was about a 30 years old, maybe a little before.

Yael Abramson (59m 12s):
And I started realizing that I'm always thinking about what's going to be like, I was riding my bike on the way to work. And while I'm writing, I'm imagining and thinking about how I get to the door. And I'm opening, putting the key in, turning on the lights and the restaurant turning on the oven. And it's about like, I'm on my bike, six o'clock in the morning, the streets of Jerusalem. And I see it and I start laughing

6 (59m 49s):
And I look

Yael Abramson (59m 50s):
Around like, you know, cause I'm laughing loud and it's six o'clock in the morning and there's no one around me and I start cracking up and I S I see it. And, and to me, that's how it was like starting to see very little things slowly, slowly. And I think that that from, from the first, from that first conversation with that driver and coming across this understanding was the first time that I, that I realized really with this understanding that there's something that I didn't even know about help.

Yael Abramson (1h 0m 35s):
I didn't know about conversations. And I had hope for, for having a different life than I thought. Like, and funny thing is I sat in my apartment one day and suddenly I have this. I was like, I get so excited. And my roommate at w what's happening, what's going on? I'm like, oh my God. I just had a thought of suicide and did my mind. She's like, well, that's, that's why he's so excited.

Yael Abramson (1h 1m 15s):
I'm like, because it hasn't been in my head for about two years and I just saw it so clear. It just like came in. And I was like, wow, that's how it works. I don't have to do anything with it. I don't have to worry about it. I don't have to try to figure out why it's here. And yeah, my life changed. It's still changing

6 (1h 1m 53s):
All them

Yael Abramson (1h 1m 54s):
Little, little dreams that I ever had, but, you know, if I will be okay in all, maybe I'll maybe I'll sing. Maybe I'll, you know, do some woodworking.

6 (1h 2m 6s):
All these things started happening in their time.

Rohini Ross (1h 2m 25s):
Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us. And for those who listen, we really appreciate your openness and your willingness to share. And, and now you're also sharing this understanding with others. You have your practice. So could you just share a little bit about how you went from seeing this for yourself and having your life transform to then wanting to share it with others and help others?

Yael Abramson (1h 2m 53s):
To me, I thought that I was suffering because the world I was suffering because other people were suffering. And I thought that I have to change the whole world, everyone around me make everyone happy. And then, and then I could be, that's how I thought it worked. I see a lot of pain and suffering around me and daily life things and people, you know, my siblings, my parents, and there's really nothing I can do.

Yael Abramson (1h 3m 46s):
I started seeing the more I lived my life, I was okay. Two things happen. The people around me were less worried about me. And when they were less worried about me, I was free to be less worried about myself. But the biggest thing is that I see that there's a very big misunderstanding on what mental health is on a suicidal ideation, what depression is.

Yael Abramson (1h 4m 36s):
And there are a lot of things that I love to do, but I feel that I'm sharing with people, my story, or letting people express what they're going through, their story and being for them in a place that understands what they're going through. Because what, when I had doctors that listened to me, they did not listen to me. When I went to therapy, I have to say was maybe one lady that did listen to me a little.

Yael Abramson (1h 5m 20s):
And I think she kind of knows us understanding without knowing it, you know, maybe parts of it. But there's one thing that kind of annoys me is the working hard part. Like we have to work hard to be better people. We have to work hard in order to be okay. We have to work hard in order to be less anxious. We have to work hard in order to succeed. And I see how that's not true. I know that's not true. I know that when we start looking into the, into that space of who we are, and we're interested in how things work, how we work, life changes, it changes on its own.

Yael Abramson (1h 6m 17s):
There's, there's, there's no hard work to me, the intention to like remembering. Cause I get, I get upset. I have moments where I don't know what to do and I freak out and I'm like, okay, it's okay. Not to know. And then finally things happen. But knowing that we don't have to work so hard in order to be okay, because okay, is who we are. It's it's who I am. It just, it pushes me forward just knowing who I am, pushes me forward to be myself more and to, and to wanna share with whoever's ready to listen.

Yael Abramson (1h 7m 5s):
It's beautiful. It's beautiful

Angus Ross (1h 7m 17s):
It's so interesting in, in what you're talking about beside DIA, that, you know, we're given, maybe there's a diagnosis, there's a label that comes along with it. And then we have to work really hard at maintaining ourselves within that diagnosis in a way where it's sort of suggesting that we're in remission, that we have this, this affliction, if you like, and we have to do everything in our power to avoid it, which really all that we're doing is kind of doing the one thing that probably got us there in the first place, in a way that we'd get ourselves stirred. It stood up maybe. And I'm also, I'm curious is so in, in terms of them giving you this diagnosis and you having these episodes of the episodes completely gone away now for you and how long has that be being, if that's okay to ask and do you still have to do, are you still on any kind of medication in that respect as well?

Yael Abramson (1h 8m 17s):
That's a good question. This understanding, I think I've been around the for seven years and I think that for the first four years I was in all thought, so there was a part of it that I knew, and that's why I was changing my life. So till then I was fine. I was on medication till then, but I knew what it was doing to me. So I wasn't really, I wasn't really like a hundred percent on the medication, but then I had this experience hearing Dr.

Yael Abramson (1h 8m 60s):
Pettit in one of the London conferences, I asked him about medication and he said, the more people would look into the spiritual nature of who they are. They'll know when, and when not like, they'll know what to do now, I've been around this understanding. So I've been around it, but I didn't really understand what was going on because I don't think I ever had, like, I didn't have like a one-on-one. So like I was listening, I knew that life can change. I knew that life could be different. It was already different in so many ways, but I was stuck in thought and that was okay.

Yael Abramson (1h 9m 43s):
Cause that's where I was. And, and when I heard that I knew I could live off medication, but there was a missing piece. I didn't know anything about feeling. So I started going off this medication. I did it with someone that was very professional and she worked at it for about 20 years. And I didn't know that when, when this is going to happen, when I'm going to get off the medication, all the experiences that I have since then, well, I kind of come back slowly when, with me being a hundred percent aware, right. Cause the medication kind of goes away and then I'm more aware.

Yael Abramson (1h 10m 26s):
That's what it does. It kind of blocks a place of, you know, the awareness, the thoughts. Then I started getting manic, but without understanding, because in my mind it's all thought, so I wasn't paying attention to my body. I wasn't paying attention to feeling. So I went through this crazy, crazy manic episode, which was kind of weird because it wasn't like the other ones. Cause I was, I knew how to take care of myself. I knew how to be okay. You know, it's all thought I'm good, but I wasn't good. And then I did some crazy things. I became very, very religious for about few months.

Yael Abramson (1h 11m 9s):
I don't know if I want to say this. Okay. I won't say it. You don't have to say, okay. I went crazy for a few months. I listened to all the people that, you know, tell me what to do. Haven't been listening to myself anymore. And I had a crazy incident. And I thought that when that crazy incident will be finished, I'll be fine. My, my anxiety will go away. But when this happened, I wasn't, I wasn't fine. So I kind of like left all the ideas and this crazy thing that was happening.

Yael Abramson (1h 11m 50s):
Can I have to tell you how crazy it is? Because then people won't understand. I married someone with knowing him and like a few like, like for God, right? Because I heard in this religious class that like you have to, in order to be with God, you have to be with a man. And I was like very high. And I thought that was true. So I didn't that I didn't really want to go through with it, but I thought my father will have a heart attack and all the family and most of my family were very against, but to make a story short, the next day I ran away because I realized suddenly I woke up and I fell into a very, very deep depression, but in a weird depression, because I never had a depression until then that I was aware of.

Yael Abramson (1h 12m 45s):
Cause I didn't know what it was. And I was like that for about three months. And I was fighting myself with this medication thing because I was off medication to me. I worked so hard and I called after three months, I called the psychiatrist is a person who also shares his understanding. And I told him, I don't know what to do. Is that because I know this understanding, I know this three principles and now I'm the press for three months. I can't get out of bed. I can't work. I'm not functioning. And I'm scared to take medication because, you know, I thought the principal say don't do that.

Yael Abramson (1h 13m 26s):
And he said, the principals don't say that. But I think that, you know what you need to do for yourself, what you want to do for yourself. So I went on medication for a few months strange, but a very, very little amount, like less than a quarter from what I would take the 13 years before. But for me, that was okay for my doctors not, but when I had that, when I had that three months depression, I was in my mind, this understanding doesn't work. Right. Because I'm depressed.

Yael Abramson (1h 14m 8s):
But I had a conversation with my friend and I said, look, this understanding is not working. She said, what do you mean? He said, I'm depressed. I can't do anything. So she says, what do you want to do? I said, I don't know. I said, okay, so they'll do anything. So she says, but I want to do something. So what do you want to do? I said, I want to watch a movie just to watch a movie. I said, but I've been watching movies for three months. I just want to watch a movie. So she said, so just want to watch a movie because you want to watch a movie. Not because you're depressed. And I heard her, I was on a, I think I was on a zoom call with her.

Yael Abramson (1h 14m 51s):
I turned off the computer. I walked out of the living room. I looked at my house. I looked at my turning machine. It was still there under the, under the blankets. I had this moment with myself. I went back to the computer and I watched a movie. And in that moment I decided to, I decided that I'm checking out if this understanding really is really true. I started listening to myself, stop talking to everyone around me, everyone that was trying to tell me what to do or where to go or how to act or what to listen to.

Yael Abramson (1h 15m 40s):
And if I was tired, I called the work and I said, I can't come in. And they said, oh, are you still like not okay. I'm like, no, I'm okay. I'm just very tired. Maybe I'll come in later and I'll go to work. It's very hard for me to lift the knife because my body was out of activity for so long. And I have to say, I have an amazing boss, had an amazing boss that worked in the kitchen and he just let me, he let me do what I can do. And then I would go home. And I started being nice to myself.

Yael Abramson (1h 16m 23s):
And to your, that, that experience taught me the, the thought feeling connection. I started learning about that myself. And it was very painful because the teachers that I learned from, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't go back to be their students. I still love them dearly, but I had to like disconnect myself. And after those few months I haven't gone on medication anymore. It's probably been about two and a half, three years.

Yael Abramson (1h 17m 4s):
I did want an opinion of a professional psychiatrist. So I went to someone private when I asked them their opinion. They said the most important thing is sleep. And if you have a hard time sleeping, I can give you a medication. You know, one that you don't sleep the next day you sleep. So I started asking, you know, saying, you know, I had this like a sleeping pill, but I was checking in with myself. And I had a few times where I had a hard night sleep. Right. So I would wake up and say, oh my God, something's going to happen. And then I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

Yael Abramson (1h 17m 44s):
Just go on, go on with your day, see what today looks like. And sometimes I would get tired and I would take a nap in the middle of the day. But most times I would forget that, that I didn't sleep the night before. And I would just do what made sense that day. And I think that these two and a half years, and especially since I, you know, and when I, when I, when I saw your rewilding, you know, male, the first one, or I don't know, I saw a video.

Yael Abramson (1h 18m 25s):
I was ready to, to have like a new, a new teacher or, or to listen to someone new about this, understanding. It opened that place in me of really starting to get it, getting to know who I am, more freedom.

Angus Ross (1h 18m 56s):
I could listen to you all day. It's, it's such a, an amazing and inspiring story. And it's so rich in content. Thank you so much on so many levels. Yeah, you absolutely answered my question. Really? What a, what a beautiful story. And I, and I think there's something about what it always comes back to the same theme. You know, you've kind of really, you've been on this long journey of discovering your essential nature and, and you had to go, you know, in the opposite direction, I imagine for a long time, but it was always there with you.

Angus Ross (1h 19m 36s):
There was always that, that spark of wisdom helping you pointing you and you just came into resonance with us. Cause kind of how I see it. And it's so key what you're saying in terms of being drawn to the rewilding, because what we're really pointing to is that it's about owning all of who we are, all of our humanness and recognizing

Rohini Ross (1h 20m 9s):
Our true nature. Can't be separate from that. And that there isn't really a separation between thought and feeling. And there isn't really a separation between thought feeling and who we are. It's just all part of the same beautiful energy of life that is us. And I think that sometimes in spiritual understandings, we can forget that it's all of that. And we can, in our, in our mind sort of only want to look at one aspect like you were saying, look at thought and see the role that thought plays.

Rohini Ross (1h 20m 50s):
But we can't really separate thought from the relationship it has with our feeling experience. And if we're not open to our feeling experience, we're not really present in the moment. And we're just using thought more as a concept than really understanding the principle of what it is and how it plays out in our life and, and how experience is created from that. And that the energy behind all of that, we couldn't have thought and feelings without this energy of life. That is who we all are. And I really appreciate what you're pointing to in terms of you're not dogmatic in any way. And that it's about you listening to your own inner wisdom and listening to that guidance.

Rohini Ross (1h 21m 35s):
And the you're saying, this is what worked for me. You're not saying this is what you need to do. It's not about, oh, you're for medication you're against medication. It's no, it's about listening to what you need to listen to within yourself. And I think that's so important to recognize that everybody has their own journey and there isn't one right way. There's the way that works for each individual. And I think he pointed to that beautifully as I'm listening to him, I'm thinking of it as a, as a listener. And I'm wondering if you'd be willing to share a little bit more about what you saw for yourself. And I know that initially you knew that you were being impacted, but you didn't really know how you're being impacted, but you could see that your life was changing.

Rohini Ross (1h 22m 19s):
You're losing weight. You, it sounds like you were more peaceful. And, and I'm just wondering if you could speak to the experience of trauma and how that relates to how the understanding helped you with that specifically, because I have a feeling that many people would benefit from you sharing this a little bit more. If you're open to that,

Angus Ross (1h 22m 43s):
When you say trauma, and I think about what people, what we call in life trauma, I could talk about a lot of things. Like, you know, when I was, when I was young, I was, I guess, touched in a wrong way from my

Yael Abramson (1h 23m 6s):
Now he was just a few years older than me. He was a kid as well, but the grit, the way I grew up was wrong, it was wrong to be in that kind of contact. So it was really bad. So there's that kind of trauma there's trauma of not being listened to as a child, you know, as, as a child in a home or in a school, you know, not understanding that this child needs something that was very traumatic for me, but no one saw that I wasn't okay. No one saw that I needed something else, except one of my principals that didn't know what to do with me.

Yael Abramson (1h 23m 46s):
But he, he gave me money to buy pizza. You know, when I was kicked out of the class, he said, go buy pizza, come back and wait here. You know, he knew that I wasn't like everyone else, but he didn't know how to help me just like being kind, that was his health. So then there's a trauma of, of, of being, being manic is a whole thing. But there's so much trauma in that. Like I remember trying to run away from the hospital and this door getting closed on me and my hand was in there and there was this gigantic guard, you know, like the trauma of remembering the things that I did or the things that I said to people that I said or hurting people in the state of mind till today, there's a person that I want to tell them, I'm sorry.

Yael Abramson (1h 24m 44s):
They were not ready. But I used to really suffer from it. I used to suffer from all these traumas. And I remember those first few years when things started changing, I started seeing things as, as thought. So I knew they will pass. So I kind of didn't have to engage with them in the same way I was before. So I still had a story. Right. But I don't remember when it was, these stories kept on coming back.

Yael Abramson (1h 25m 26s):
And when these stories came back and I started seeing them as something that happened to me, but they're not happening right now, slowly, slowly, they became more tolerable. The memory of them see everything for me happens. It happens slow. So what, what happened like sometimes when I talk about the story of, you know, you know, being hurt in that way, I cry. Sometimes it's just story. But I remember a few years ago thinking about writing a book and I, and I had this thought, like, what would I write in the book?

Yael Abramson (1h 26m 13s):
Like, what do I want to write? All these things that happened to me? I wasn't open yet. I wasn't really talking about my experience this openly a few years ago. And I remember thinking that, what if let's say I leave this world and people read about the story, right? So I'm not here anymore, so I don't have to deal with it. And then I said, and all like, what if I'm hearing, when people hear the story, it still doesn't mean anything about me. It's something that happened to me and it's painful. I don't think people should have don't think we need to be going through these things. But it happened to me, I thought like, yeah, the, the frame that these, these stories, the frames kept on changing.

Yael Abramson (1h 27m 3s):
And then I can see these things that happened to me as they were very, they were much like, I think that one thing that was very, very, very powerful, powerful for me is that 10 years after that rape, I was suffering. Like it happened to me every day and seeing that it's not like that anymore. Like I was suffering more from the story, then the rape itself, I just started seeing it, like seeing the, the, that it comes back to me that it's not always there, that, that it's a reminder of things that happened to me.

Yael Abramson (1h 27m 55s):
But when, when all these things started changing, I also started remembering fun things that happened to me in my childhood. And I think that that's like, it wasn't there all the time. And because I, I learned about thought, so I didn't have to hold onto it anymore. So because I didn't hold onto it anymore. I wasn't, I wasn't in pain. And I guess, I, I don't know when it was, I guess one day suddenly the frame around it changed completely. And then I was free.

Rohini Ross (1h 28m 46s):
This is really pointing to how it wasn't about working hard. But as your understanding deepened, and you truly saw that your relationship with those thoughts could change. I love how you said it. The frame shifted that your perspective on those thoughts changed and you saw it just as thought, not as something real and happening in the moment, that's what set you free. And I think that's so profound for, for us to see that. And I know I get a glimpse of that, and there's so much more to see around that, but there's such a profound freedom and having perspective on thought. So it doesn't have to have us in the same way.

Rohini Ross (1h 29m 27s):
And your experience, I think, is so hopeful for myself and for everybody that we can have that experience as humans to have thought, but not be gripped by thought, especially in ways that create so much suffering for ourselves independent of what we've experienced in life.

Angus Ross (1h 29m 52s):
Yeah. It sort of evokes in me, you know, a desire to want to explore more in terms of what it really means. Maybe that's just my analytical mind and my ego wanting to get a hold of even more information around this or more awareness. But it's, it's fascinating for me to think how we might have a traumatic experience. And then we might relive that traumatic experience. And we might live, we live that traumatic experience every day for 10 years. And it's kind of like, ah, analytical mind just in my mind. And I guess speaking for myself, and I think about the experiences that I may have had that have been traumatic. It's kind of, there's something in the reliving of that experience through the system of fault that my feeling is that I'm going to find an answer.

Angus Ross (1h 30m 37s):
I'm going to find a solution. I'm going to want some, for all figure out what it is I need to figure out so I can get beyond this. And that for me is, is where the understood misunderstanding lies. Because every time I left that thinking alone and probably in my, without even being aware of it, fell back into some sort of thing, some place in my mind that closely resembled my essential nature. My essential nature is always looking for equilibrium and homeostasis is I'm designed that way. So it's always kind of like gonna lead me in that direction, but my ego would be so hell bent on finding that solution and think that that was the answer.

Angus Ross (1h 31m 19s):
So when you were speaking, I was thinking about this idea of listening is like, what am I going to listen to here? And of course, you know, the analytical mind is, is an incredible storage system. And, and, and, you know, it's important to have information that helps us to get through life. You know, like the classic example of a child, not needing to touch a radiator, cause it's going to burn his hand. He's like, you know, you need to, to have that resource at your disposal, but then this is so, so there's this very beautiful and powerful other parts of our human experience, which is our essential nature, which is also guiding us as well in a way in real time, we kind of know what to do because we've to that part of yourself.

Angus Ross (1h 32m 1s):
And I kind of, I don't know if whatever reason for me what stands out, one of the things that stands out in, you know, a story is that experience you had with an African-American gentlemen, it sounded like for years, you're listening to that one lonely voice of your analytical mind. And there was something in that conversation that maybe brought you back into the present. It was like, it was a feeling of presence. And I don't even know how to articulate it. I just got a feeling that, that, that was a moment where you suddenly kind of like jumped back into who you really are in your essential nature. And I think that's that's for me is that's where the insight seems to be. And I wish I could do a better job of articulating it myself.

Angus Ross (1h 32m 42s):
My goodness. I wish I could do a good as good a job as you, but there's something around that that that's so profound. And, and that's, that's where the answer lies for me is to continue to look in that direction.

Rohini Ross (1h 32m 56s):
So yeah, I really appreciate you being willing at this point now to, to share your experience and service to others, I feel it's such a gift and I'm hoping gives hope and inspiration to so many, whether we've experienced similar things or completely different things. We're all in this human experience that's, what's universal and what you're pointing to and what you're living is, is universal to us all. It's not about the content of your life. It's what you've seen and, and how you recognized your ability to interrupt that identification with the, the narrator and, and identify with that deeper part of yourself.

Rohini Ross (1h 33m 45s):
And, and the wisdom was there throughout, you know, that, that moment of you looking in the mirror and realizing it wasn't about your weight, realizing that you could accept yourself and not just accept yourself, that you could love yourself and that you were even willing to try that out and see how it goes. Like, that's your wisdom speaking to you, that's grace. And we have that within us. And when we're suffering, we just forget that we have that within us, and we're not listening to that. We're listening to the noise. The narrator, the analytical mind is anger sad, but that reminder for us all, to listen to that quiet or loving space within ourselves, that's true for everyone.

Rohini Ross (1h 34m 30s):
There's not one person that won't benefit from that. So really appreciate you pointing so clearly and experientially in that direction. And it is truly inspiring what you have learned through your life experiences and where you're at now. And I'm so grateful to have you in the rewilding community. And have you sharing the understanding with others and supporting you on that journey. It's really exciting to know that you're going to be touching many people's lives.

Rohini Ross (1h 35m 14s):
Yeah. This has been a wonderful episode and you've covered so much already, but we wondered. Is there anything else that you'd like to share that hasn't been covered so far?

Angus Ross (1h 35m 26s):
Yeah, so it's interesting when I take a moment and think about my journey and I shared about how many things that I didn't know, and I didn't know that I didn't know. And agenda just like came back to me and I was like, wow, that's interesting that I haven't spoke about that because it has been a big part of misunderstanding myself since the beginning. You know, when, when I first noticed that I have this thing, that's talking to me in my head, I was confused.

Angus Ross (1h 36m 14s):
I was confused because I started looking around me and growing up in a very traditional Jewish religious household. There are a lot of rules and I have seven sisters and two brothers and growing up, I was just supposed to be one of the girls. I had a mission I was supposed to, I was, I was raised to be a good, modest Jewish woman. That's hopefully with God's grace is going to marry. Some of that will become a rabbi and have children. And that was the only focus.

Angus Ross (1h 36m 57s):
Right. And there was so much fear in that because going to school, I don't think no one ever asked me, like, what do you want to do? What are you interested in? What do you like? And I think that there are many people in the world that grow up like that, you know, with this idea of serving God in a certain way, that cancels anything that you are just deletes. It's like, whoever you are, it doesn't matter. As long as you're doing it in God's service and in God's name. But inside, I felt like a really, really good person.

Angus Ross (1h 37m 37s):
I knew I was good. So there was this dilemma all the time, like, how am I supposed to sort of this idea of this old man sitting on a cloud and telling me that I'm a bad girl, because of things that make sense to me. So lately I came up with this sentence that I wish my pajamas grew with me. What does that mean? That was my pajamas were pants. Yeah. And I wasn't allowed to wear pants.

6 (1h 38m 18s):
Got it.

Angus Ross (1h 38m 22s):
Dresses and skirts.

6 (1h 38m 25s):
And when I say it, it's just that

Angus Ross (1h 38m 31s):
It's like leaving. Imagine leaving the house every day, not feeling like you are feeling naked. The opposite of what I was pointed to like, this is modesty. I felt like I was, I had to reveal myself to the world

6 (1h 38m 57s):
In the name of religion. Hmm. So it's a good thing.

Angus Ross (1h 39m 4s):
And then a certain age, I wasn't allowed to play with the boys anymore, but just like I shared before that I had this idea that I, you know, one day I'll just commit suicide or, and I'll finish, you know, all the suffering will end to me. It just made sense. Made sense to be on the boys' side. Like that made sense to me that, like, I remember looking at my father and imagine you'd like, well, and I'll grow up and I'll have money. I'll have shows like my dad. And it's not because I wanted, it's not because I, I don't know how to explain it. It just made sense to me know me to explain.

Angus Ross (1h 39m 50s):
And this was something that was like locked inside me till I was about, I think 15. And I started like hanging out with people that were different than my community. And I worked a little and I made some money. And I remember I went to the store and I bought these pair of pants. And I think that, I mean, they were so not fashionable and I could not wear them. I bought these pants and I was so excited, but it was something that I couldn't wear after once. Cause it didn't make sense, but I kept these like as a souvenir for about 20 years of my father, it was like, I cannot like, this is my first.

6 (1h 40m 32s):
Yeah. And I remember the first time

Angus Ross (1h 40m 41s):
I cut my hair. I hadn't very, very long, beautiful

6 (1h 40m 48s):
Hair,

Angus Ross (1h 40m 48s):
But the only thing I did with it is put it in a ponytail and, and, and, and braid it because it just not, for me, it's like I had to keep all of these things and maintain myself for other people because I couldn't, I really couldn't deal with the fact that I kept on upsetting my parents. I really couldn't deal with the fact that I kept on upsetting my parents. I kept on causing my father pain and, and thinking that I was doing that. Cause that's, you know, that's how it seemed that I'm he's upset because me, so I took the blame for everyone's upset.

Angus Ross (1h 41m 28s):
I took the blame and I thought that if only I could just be good, they won't be upset anymore. And I remember that time when I cut my hair, we're about four friends sitting on the barbershop in this like beauty parlor. They're all getting, you know, hair and makeup done for one of my best friend's wedding. And I was sitting in that chair and I'm telling this guy just like cut it off. Was like, what do you mean? Like cut it off. He was like, okay. So like the here on my start there. And I remember I got like a really, really short haircut, like even shorter than the one I have now.

Angus Ross (1h 42m 13s):
And I was so afraid to look in the mirror and I'm looking around and my friends are all happy and excited and makeup and it's a wedding day. And I get like this, like not even knowing that I'm like settling down, like I know that I'm doing something very scary. And I remember walking out that beauty parlor and seeing my reflection.

6 (1h 42m 42s):
And

Angus Ross (1h 42m 42s):
It was the first time in my life that I felt that I have an inside.

6 (1h 42m 53s):
Mm.

Angus Ross (1h 42m 53s):
I didn't know that, that there is something deeper than my thoughts. And it was very strange to me. And I didn't, I couldn't share about it because I just did things that made sense to me. And the people that were around me did not understand. They were just like, always hoping that one day I'll just come around or, you know, like I'm just lost. And if I'll only understand, you know, this God and this religion and this Torah and how beautiful it is, I'll just, you know, stop all my shenanigans and, and get back on track.

Angus Ross (1h 43m 39s):
And when I cut my hair, I had no idea about gender. I had no idea about, I didn't know what gay was. I didn't know. I did have these kind of weird relationships with friends growing up, or, you know, when I was a teenager, but I had no idea about sexual orientation. I had no idea. And I was talking about before about moving back and forth to New York.

6 (1h 44m 9s):
And

Angus Ross (1h 44m 10s):
I remember the first time I met someone that looked like me. It was, I worked at this Israeli carwash, like in the store inside. And I met this girl and she told me her, the boss told me her name. And she said, if I would introduce myself, I would tell you that this is my name. And it was a male's name. And I was like, oh, what, what do you mean? What are you talking about? And I started learning that there are things that I didn't know exists in the world, but it made a lot of sense to me. And slowly, slowly, I realized that the way I am attracted to a woman is the way my friends would say they're attracted to a man, but I just didn't know.

Angus Ross (1h 45m 1s):
Right. So of course I got really afraid because there's so much, I don't know. And now there's another thing, like, how am I supposed to talk about how am I supposed to deal with life? So more stress. And I think that like the judgment kept on coming in, like, you know, back to my family, why haven't I known why no one told me. And I went on like that in this, in this kind of suffering. And I kind of distanced myself from any community because I was afraid to talk. I was, I, I thought for many years that I will, that will come a day, that I will go through a sexual change.

Angus Ross (1h 45m 46s):
Like I would go through a surgery that went through my mind a lot, but I was in so much pain. I couldn't even deal with having another thing on my plate. So I kept on. And when I came across this understanding, I started accepting myself for who I am. And with that, I also had a lot of judgment about, about my friends. Cause I was like, oh, if you only know, you know, about thought consciousness and mind, you would be, I dunno, less upset at the world, you know, about things of very hurtful things.

Angus Ross (1h 46m 28s):
Right? Painful things, things that I went through because I kind of like understood and, and, and saw into it. So I would, I would have judgment towards other people that didn't see into it. And I used to wonder, like, why is it that I, I can't be more helpful to my community because it was just something that I wasn't seeing. It was something that I wasn't seeing about myself because accepting myself for who I am I saw was, I didn't know, was the first step, but it was the first step. I didn't know that there's more, I did share before about that part. That when I would like every time I would go manic, so I would kind of like get close to religion

6 (1h 47m 16s):
Because

Angus Ross (1h 47m 16s):
When the mind blows up, you're not in a, I wasn't in a human state. I was somewhere else. So where would I go? I went to what I knew and what I knew was religion. It was like going back to that. And I shared that I had this, this time where I had this episode and I, you know, I was, I was told I was listening to all of these Kabbalah rabbi. My siblings saw that I was going through a hard time.

6 (1h 47m 47s):
Hi, I didn't see it. Hmm.

Angus Ross (1h 47m 51s):
But they knew that what I'm going through is not me. Right. And I thought that all this stress and all this high is going to end when I do again, what these rabbis told me, what I heard these rabbis say. And what I heard was When you marry a man, you become an, you become one with guns.

6 (1h 48m 19s):
Hmm.

Angus Ross (1h 48m 21s):
And the reason I'm sharing this is because when, when we see God as a concept That we have to do something in order to become,

6 (1h 48m 36s):
We're going to have to do a lot of stuff. Right.

Angus Ross (1h 48m 41s):
So, but in my last, in my loss and my listening to other people, I went with that, but I already felt that something was wrong here, but I became so close to my parents because yeah, I became religious. Again, like to them, Messiah is right at the door. He's coming. Like, if I'm marrying the men, right. That's it. And I'm telling it, it's funny. But my parents community, the community, I grew up in my childhood friends that I haven't spoken to in 20 years all showed up for this one.

6 (1h 49m 22s):
Hmm. Yeah.

Angus Ross (1h 49m 24s):
But the friends that knew me saw that there's something wrong with

6 (1h 49m 29s):
Me.

Angus Ross (1h 49m 31s):
And I started seeing it that day But I had to go through with it. For some reason, I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't who I am

6 (1h 49m 48s):
<inaudible>. And

Angus Ross (1h 49m 48s):
The next day I did the next day I did, because I saw that all the stress and anxiety that I was in was not connected to anything outside of me. And then I showed that I fell into this depression and think it's about the, I started going on this journey on my own. No, no principals, teachers, just what I want to listen to. The people that I connected to not listening to anyone, getting away from everyone that told me that I should be a certain way.

Angus Ross (1h 50m 30s):
And that if I start looking in the direction of God, it's not religion. It was the wilding that I joined. For some reason, listening to my heart and listening to you guys, talk about the essential nature of who we are talking about. Love it. I think it threw me like so many. They mentioned deep into the understanding, not the three principles who we are as humans.

Angus Ross (1h 51m 16s):
Yeah. And every time I had these strong feelings about myself and, and, and, oh my God, like, I, I could not have a relationship with him because I was so uncomfortable with myself. I was so comfortable with, with who I became, but I was so uncomfortable with myself because look at me and how do I dress? But wait, am I suppose, am I allowed to be gentle? Am I allowed to cry? Am I allowed to wear a pink shirt? Wait, can I wear this kind of earring? And there was so much that went on and I, every time I would have these strong feelings in these ideas about myself, I would think that the end point of it will be me going through a change, a very big change.

Angus Ross (1h 51m 60s):
And then I would see all my family disconnect for me and all my friends and all these people. So I would stop there. So when I, when I realized that this program and what, what it gave me was the permission to be whoever I am a hundred percent, doesn't matter what doesn't matter, who doesn't matter how. And I think it was like in the middle of the program, when I started having these, you know, these, these strong feelings came and I, and I let them all come by, how was this a struggling in my relationship and, and going through a breakup.

Angus Ross (1h 52m 43s):
And I was like, how could this happen to me, you with this understanding all what I know. But every time I had this, these feelings, I would throw them on her, you know, throw them like we have to fix the relationship in order for me to not. And I wasn't seeing it Luckily enough this day I was home alone and all these feelings came up and all that movie, all those, all that story of who I am. And what's going to be, if I look in this direction, if I let myself be in this, in this state of who I am, Something like something opened up.

Angus Ross (1h 53m 29s):
And I remember having this conversation with myself and saying like, so what if, what if you would want to go in that direction?

6 (1h 53m 42s):
Yeah.

Angus Ross (1h 53m 43s):
What if, if, if that's okay for you, what if the people you love what want to hang out with you? Can you see your life? Like, and then I was like, this, this thing of it that you said, or he kept on coming into my mind, like, am I willing to, to be myself, I'm a willing to be true to myself and be who I am and let everything be canceled in the name of that.

6 (1h 54m 18s):
And I was

Angus Ross (1h 54m 22s):
So afraid, so grateful that I was alone that day because I calmed down and I became open to what's happening now. And to the next step. And to my surprise, I stopped becoming comfortable with who I am. And I just was. Hmm. And I started finding so much freedom in that. I started seeing all that judgment. All those years of it's been like 15 years, 15, 20 years of thinking what's going to happen if, and what's going to happen.

Angus Ross (1h 55m 8s):
If, and, And that was around the time the re-imagining our spiritual communities started. And I remember that first session and Julie said something. She said,

6 (1h 55m 28s):
Sometimes we think, we know, we think we're here with people,

Angus Ross (1h 55m 33s):
But if we're willing to see that we are here. And the only way we can know is if we ask questions and we get permission, we make people meet people where they are. And something happened to me then. And I started seeing that I have a lot of judgment about myself, have a lot of judgment about the community that I belong to have a lot of judgment about People that go through hardship. Like I did And there was something that I wasn't seeing.

Angus Ross (1h 56m 19s):
And I kept on coming to the program. And it was at last day where you, you asked us to share before you spoke. And I shared about how much I didn't see about racism. And I was talking about the kind of racism that we were talking about, but when I stopped talking, it's like this sink opened in my mind and everything started pouring through. And I saw that I had so much judgment towards myself that I wasn't really accepting myself for who I am.

Angus Ross (1h 57m 12s):
I had a problem when people call me gay, I had a power problem. When people called me bullshit, I had a problem with people calling me because I didn't like the name because they didn't see who I was, but I only had a problem with that because I didn't see who I was.

6 (1h 57m 34s):
Hmm.

Angus Ross (1h 57m 36s):
And when I saw into that, it was like, wow, I could, I could really be in love with whoever I am. Like, I can just love myself every day, wake up. What makes sense to me live life, the way feels right. For me without doing harm to anyone else. And that is actually like a godly way to live.

Angus Ross (1h 58m 16s):
And, and strange things started happening because I was like, oh, what if there are more women? You know, that's how I'm called in the world. Okay. I'm fine with it. Call me, she, I'm fine with it. Call me here. I'm fine with it as well. But I'm only fine with it because I know that that's not who I am, so I'm comfortable with it. So when people talk to me on the street or at work or at a supermarket, and they asked me, you know, and they, they, they, they point it, can you get me that?

Angus Ross (1h 58m 57s):
And they, and they, and they address me as a male. So I don't have much about it anymore, but I used to cause so much embarrassing for myself and for them, because I was so uncomfortable. I was like, I didn't know, what should I tell them? Should I not? Like, this is my body. I would get so confused. But I had, I was so uncomfortable with who I am that I also thought I have to choose. Who are the people that I work with, because if I'm not comfortable with who I am, and I have judgment about that, I can't work with anyone.

6 (1h 59m 39s):
Okay.

Angus Ross (1h 59m 39s):
And, and that was us with something that was, I was so caught up in my mind. Cause I didn't know. And it's, it's interesting that when I started saying that and I was open to whoever knocks at my door, the interesting thing is that I started connecting with, with people that I never thought I would connect with like very religious people. And they have opened up to me in moments, just in a conversation in the market, like, like, how is that happening? I used to think that people would see my outside because that's how I was seeing myself And, you know, becoming free of that, It, it just brings to, to a place of, of loving humans saying humans for who we are.

Angus Ross (2h 0m 48s):
And we all get a, we get a chance to choose to live in any way. That's comfortable for us in any way that we see fit. And I think that that's a gift for everyone on this planet, but especially I think that it's, that it's, that it's like another step I started seeing that, especially in the, in the, in the gay community, because we have to fight for who we are and the name of, of everyone else. So there's a lot of power. There, there a lot of strength of who we are as human beings.

Angus Ross (2h 1m 33s):
And that brings like a connection with people that are not going through that because when we let that shield down, we see that people are struggling in the same ways. But the ability to who we are to be who we are, gives us a chance, strength to connect with people on so many levels. Yeah. That's, that's all,

Rohini Ross (2h 2m 17s):
That's all of, that's also profound and inspiring. Yeah. Well, I really thank you for sharing this part of your journey with us. And I feel the freedom that you're experiencing and based on what you shared, I understand how that wasn't easy to get to at times, but where you're at now, that ability to be with yourself and to live into the possibilities that open up for you without having to have restrictions about what that means or what that looks like, and to live in the freedom of that and the curiosity and the exploration of that is a guidepost for all of us.

Angus Ross (2h 3m 9s):
Yes. It's so inspiring. And I'm also reflecting on the realization that I feel that this is so universal. I mean, your story is extraordinary. And what you're up against is, is, you know, I'm sure in most people's minds, that's a real journey to go through that. But I still feel for the most part, a lot of people are dealing with this situation in their lives where they feel like they can't be themselves. And yours is probably an extreme example, but I think people there's a spectrum to that.

Angus Ross (2h 3m 49s):
And I think so many people struggle with this idea. Yeah. We have to conform to the rules and regulations, the code that you know, that my family or my culture needs me to follow. And that takes on so many different complexions. And I feel that that's, what's so beautiful about this work, which has been so beautifully articulated by you, is that it's about recovering or restoring or remembering who we really are at our core, which is love and wellbeing. And we all have that going on. No, no one has sat above anybody else, whatever rules and regulations are out there thinking that, you know, we have a handle on it.

Angus Ross (2h 4m 30s):
That's universal. So, so kudos to you for, for, for all that you've seen and all that you're sharing and all that you're teaching now, I

6 (2h 4m 38s):
Think it is profound. And I think it is universal.

Yael Abramson (2h 4m 43s):
Thank you. I w I want to say thank you for giving me the chance and just as two of you speak, there's just one thing that I think that really saved my life is knowing about quiet, knowing about that, that place exists. And it's part of me that is been a discovery that's been showing up again. And again and again, throughout this year is knowing about the quiet. I think I had no idea that it's there. So I want to say thank you. It's a, it's a blessing for me.

Yael Abramson (2h 5m 24s):
And it's a gift for me to know you and to be a part of your community. And thank you.

6 (2h 5m 34s):
Well, thank you so much. Just one last thing, when you were saying that, it's kind of like, we're listening for the quiet aren't we, so learning to listen to the, till what isn't there in a way, like what we're saying, but it's so profound.

Rohini Ross (2h 5m 49s):
I think for the quiet listening to the silence, like, what are we listening for? But it's like, that's true. There's that, that feeling, this is where words does escape us because it's difficult to point to in that way, but we all know it. And I think you've communicated that feeling of quiet, you've communicated the experience of beyond the words and, and, and in a way that people will feel, and that's what counts and, and you do a beautiful job of articulating something that's intangible in that way.

6 (2h 6m 21s):
Yeah. What an amazing teacher you are. I feel really, I feel really blessed to be able to have this conversation with you on a personal level. So thank you.

Rohini Ross (2h 6m 36s):
Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

6 (2h 6m 47s):
ITunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross (2h 6m 52s):
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewilders.org.

6 (2h 7m 0s):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.