EP35 Ami Chen Mills-Naim: Rewilding Activism

Ami Chen Mills-Naim talks with us about how she got into activism, particularly around politics and the climate crisis. She reminds us that spirituality and anger, and/or opposition, are not mutually exclusive, and protesting is often necessary to get the attention necessary for creating any kind of meaningful change. She shows us that we can show up, be human, and learn about - and fight against - grave injustices, without losing touch with our essential nature and oneness.

Her grounding and humility have allowed her to learn about her own biases without taking them personally, while still committing to personal change and growth in these areas. She courageously holds conversations with others she disagrees with in order to impart this wisdom and to see if they can find common ground.

Ami shows us that it's possible to hold more than one feeling and viewpoint at once (e.g. anger and love). She has joined many activist groups and enjoys bringing the spiritual side to the work she does on these issues. We admire her fortitude in joining these movements that are working tirelessly to push forth equality and human rights, as well as efforts to fight the climate crisis we face as residents of this planet.
 
Show Notes
Amanda Gorman: youngest inaugural poet in U.S. history
Heather McGhee: Author of The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together
Shut it Down: An activist's guide to direct action and strategic civil disobedience
Awake a dream from Standing Rock: 2017 documentary about The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe peaceful resistance of construction of an oil pipeline through their land
Caste by Isabel Wilkerson: necessary reading on racism in the United States

Ami Chen Mills-Naim is a global speaker, coach, trainer, and author of State of Mind in the Classroom: Thought, Consciousness and the Essential Curriculum for Healthy Learning, and The Spark Inside: A Special Book for Youth. With her late father, the social scientist Dr. Roger Mills  she co-founded the non-profit Center for Sustainable Change, and served as its Executive Director and Education Director for a decade. She has been a speaker on innate wellness and resiliency, and a trainer of the “Three Principles” for more than 30 years. In response to recent, global events, she launched a YouTube Channel called The Heart of America, utilizing her journalism skills.

More on her current scope of work can be found at www.AmiChen.com.

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.

Episode 35  features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.

See full show notes here.

Transcript

Angus Ross (4s):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross (12s):
This is episode number 35 an interview with Ami Chen Mills-Naim.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (18s):
I think what King was so good at was always assuming that someone could change

Angus Ross (23s):
Being mean to me, a few occasions around my, my white privilege tendencies.

Rohini Ross (30s):
The understanding that helps couples get along and have their relationships work better is the same understanding that's going to help us address these larger concerns.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (40s):
The child's running into the street, you don't sit there thinking about how "we're all one, it's going to be fine

Rohini Ross (48s):
When we get present and listen within we'll get guided as to what our action is.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (54s):
I guess I feel a little bit like people might think I've become unhinged or something.

Rohini Ross (60s):
You mean you're human Ami? I didn't know that!

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1m 3s):
Women know that we're only here because of fighting, fighting in the streets to get the right to vote, to be able to work, to be able to wear pants.

Angus Ross (1m 13s):
I really never saw it. And I think that's obviously a big part of the problem is that we don't see it.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1m 19s):
Privilege is a gift. It means you have the time and space and mental energy to be educated and to open your heart.

Angus Ross (1m 28s):
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross (1m 33s):
and me, Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross (1m 34s):
Rewilding love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross (1m 38s):
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded.

Angus Ross (1m 45s):
Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work

Rohini Ross (1m 51s):
And how it has helped them in their relationships.

Angus Ross (1m 55s):
Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross (2m 10s):
We had a great conversation with Ami Chen Mills-Naim, and Ami is a global speaker. She's a coach, she's a trainer. She's written two books. One of the books is called State of Mind in the Classroom. And the other is called The Spark Inside. And that's the book for youth and with her late father, Dr. Roger Mills, who was a leading light in sharing the three principles, understanding in the world and bringing it into numerous communities to promote change within those communities. She co-founded the nonprofit center for sustainable change and she was their executive director and also the educational director there for over a decade.

Angus Ross (2m 52s):
She's, she's been a speaker on innate health and resiliency and a trainer of the three principles for the last 30 years. And in light of the recent events, she's also created a YouTube <inaudible> okay. You didn't understand that the translation of that comment was she has created a YouTube channel called the heart of America.

Rohini Ross (3m 27s):
Yay. You made it. So I'm really happy to have Ami on the podcast with us. She has a profound grounding in the understanding that we share from. And she also has had a really interesting journey of being a teacher who shares spiritual principles and also being an activist and seeing how the two of those can go together. And that has been a bit of an issue between us.

Angus Ross (3m 52s):
Yeah. You mean, you'd been mean to me on a few occasions around my, my white privilege, since I've been mean to you, you haven't been, you haven't been mean to me, but I think you've been concerned something about, yeah, yeah. Concerned about my white bias. Is that what you would say, your bias, my bias, and I really never saw it. And I think that's obviously the big part of the problem is that we don't see it. And you highlighted some of the areas. When I guess finally I got to a place to listen to it before I was just, that's ridiculous.

Angus Ross (4m 33s):
That's absurd. And I think there was a point there was one occasion, which I meant it, but I remember specifically aware in my former incarnation as a photographer, I would go to the photographic store in the days when you didn't order it online and purchase myself a roll of nine foot flesh tone background paper. So I, I kind of have that in my vernacular as being a color.

Rohini Ross (5m 3s):
That was the name of the color. That

Angus Ross (5m 4s):
Was the name of the color on, in the catalog. I could order a flesh time backdrop and it was only one color and it was only one color. And it was basically, it was my flesh tone color. It's white, white centric, flesh tone. So I think that we were talking about some sort of color scheme. I think it was around our website. And I suggested that might be why don't we use a flesh tone color to which you immediately, I think there may have been a little bit of a charge on your, on your feedback that, that I was using racist language to which probably my immediate thought was that's ridiculous.

Angus Ross (5m 45s):
But then actually I suddenly realized, oh my God, this is exactly what they're talking about. Here is there is this white bias and it's so in conspicuous, because it's so much a part of the language, like in the same way, that, that is very much a part of my language as a photographer and every other photographer that was working in London. Cause that's what you would order. But then it made me, then it occurred to me why or how many other ways do we do? We use that kind of bias. And ultimately it's, it's quite offensive. And, and I, and that, that was for me, was quite an insight. So I feel like it's, it's a very interesting thing for me to now to continue to explore, because the last thing I want to do is to be seen in that light and as much as possible, I want to be able to connect with people on a very equal footing.

Rohini Ross (6m 34s):
And I think what you're saying about it being unconscious is the key piece is that we're all indoctrinated and have unconscious bias. And it is about waking up to it and realizing that, oh, flesh tone, doesn't portray all of the flesh tones that can't be right. And that there's so many ways that somebody who is white would just assume that's normal, where someone who's not white like me would say, well, that's not my flesh tone. How can you call it that way? So it's, it's again, that's a very small example, but it ripples out in so many ways. And when we start to see a Eurocentric point of view, how that has dominated so many ways of looking at life and it actually allows us to expand our point of view.

Angus Ross (7m 26s):
Yeah, no, definitely. And it allowed me to see how, you know, in the past I would say, yeah, I had to have a racist bone in my body, but then when you really look at the language or my language, there's plenty in it that that can be conceived, could be seen as very biased. And I certainly would want to become more conscious of that. <inaudible>

Rohini Ross (7m 46s):
And these are issues that can come up and relationships in terms of having challenges, talking about these kinds of issues, maybe somebody in the relationship leans more left, someone leans more, right? The issues with racism that we've had challenges having conversations about. So even though Ami is pointing at larger global issues and societal issues in this episode, we want to underscore that the understanding that helps couples get along and have their relationships work better is the same understanding that's going to help us address these larger concerns, whether it be climate change, whether it's going to be political issues, whether it's going to be issues of injustice, that when we connect with our deeper knowing and really listen to beyond our conditioning, to what we know makes sense.

Rohini Ross (8m 41s):
And what's right, I feel like that's where there's more opportunity for common ground. And that the other piece is in really listening and understanding just like in that example about flesh tone, that conversation could have gone south really quickly if we'd listening to each other. But in that situation, even though maybe I did say something in a charged way to you, you didn't shut your ears and you listen to what was going on. And we were able to have an understanding that brought us closer together. And so we want to share this in the hopes that it helps greater understanding within all relationships.

Angus Ross (9m 17s):
Yeah. And I think it's a, it's, it's very similar in the same way that we talk about these themes of being able to be, to show up to the table and listen, and listen deeply in that situation with me around flesh tone in the past, I would have just completely shut down, close my ears. It's like I haven't got a racist bone in my body. That's ridiculous. And instead I just was, I was finding myself now in this position where I'm kind of eager to listen to your point of view, and that's an entirely different way to show up in the same way that I guess when people find these points of division on a more global level, it does mean that being able to come to that table and be willing to listen and understand the other person rather than just come up and, and one of the sort of defend our programming conditioning and not be willing to see it through any other lens.

Angus Ross (10m 12s):
It's the same sort of theme that we'll talk about in relationship. And I know that it does still start to feel like a, an uncomfortable thing for me to talk about when we're talking about some very sort of serious global issues around racism. But I liked the conversation that started to happen around Martin Luther king, who was all about peaceful protesting. And it may sound sort of somewhat sort of trite in a way to sort of talk about it on a relationship level. But I remember using this recently as an example about peaceful protesting. So that for me in the context of a relationship would be willing to come to the table to try and listen and understand, but be willing to sort of think that, yeah, if I show up in a, in a sort of, not that you necessarily would be in a neutral position if it was around racism, but the more neutrality there is, and being able to see the psychological innocence of the other person based on their programming and conditioning, then I think that that has to be a feature that's going to be helpful.

Angus Ross (11m 12s):
And I think that that's, what's inherent in this understanding that applies on both counts, whatever the spectrum that we're dealing with in terms of difficulty.

Rohini Ross (11m 23s):
And I also want to say that there is healthy anger and anger. Isn't a negative emotion. So even in relationships, there's room for our human experience and what's unhealthy as chronic anger, but in the moment when it's alive, it's, what's real for us. And then we've got to look at how do we want to express our anger? Are we going to express it in a constructive way? Are we going to express it in a way that's and painful, but we want to make room for the legitimacy of our feelings and our human experience. So I think it's okay to be angry about injustice.

Rohini Ross (12m 3s):
It's okay to be angry about racism and it's okay to express in ways that are true to what we know to be right inside of ourselves. And each person is going to have to make that decision for themselves. I can't tell somebody else what their wisdom is going to tell them to do. I can only listen to the wisdom that's inside of me. And sometimes, you know, let's say there's a situation where somebody needs to protect themselves. Like yelling stop is an appropriate way. Yelling at an angry way, yelling at him force is needed. Perhaps what's most important is to listen to our wisdom in the moment and be guided by that.

Angus Ross (12m 47s):
Yeah, well, well said, well, I think at this point we should turn our attention to Ami because she takes us on a very interesting journey, talking about a lot of elements in her life that touched on many of the themes that we've just been talking about. And I think that she is after all the main event. So that's, let's see what she has to say.

Rohini Ross (13m 21s):
I want to start off by thanking you so much for being with us today. We're really looking forward to this conversation with you and, and grateful that you're sharing your time with us and with our listeners. And as you know, the first portion or really season one of this podcast was a recorded intensive with a couple and their journey and their work with us and us exploring that. And we're doing these follow-up interviews with guests to really one help people see how, what was helpful for the couple is also helpful in many different areas of life. It's not just limited to the air of relationship. So to be able to generalize and extrapolate from there.

Rohini Ross (14m 3s):
But one of the themes that came up, especially from listeners in their questions to us in the couples work was a misunderstanding around what happens if we connect with that space of wellbeing and peace and love within ourselves, that somehow that can become acquainted to becoming a doormat. And so in relationships, we look at that and say that that is not our experience with that, that in the relationship arena, what I find is that when people connect with that space or what we both find is that it really is empowering. And that if something isn't healthy, that someone will be resourced and have the common sense and inspiration in terms of how to leave a relationship, if that's really what's the healthiest choice, or they may become more assertive and empowered within a relationship if that's what's needed, or they may realize that what they're getting caught up in really isn't about their partner.

Rohini Ross (15m 3s):
And so there isn't really anything needed to do, which is kind of what was happening between you. And I think I was very critical when it, wasn't probably very fair, but with you, the conversation can be much bigger in terms of there can be this misunderstanding that somehow when people get connected with their spiritual nature and that space within that, then they're not interested in participating in the world and they might not be interested in being active in terms of creating change. And I know that you have a deep respect and a deep connection to that space within yourself and to your spiritual life and to be involved in that.

Rohini Ross (15m 46s):
And also you are very powerful activist and advocate for social justice and work very hard in educating and writing and speaking. So I thought that would be a really great conversation to explore in terms of what you've seen about how this understanding that we're, that informs every welding metaphor, how that is helpful when people want to create change, not just in their personal lives, but in the larger social sphere.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (16m 23s):
Yeah. Yeah. I I've been through quite a journey myself. You know, then I've been thinking about it a lot, this journey because I, I try to be pretty deliberate about what I'm doing and not just, you know, go mouthing off or getting myself into trouble. I'm not always successful the life. Wouldn't be fun if you were always successful. People couldn't feel superior, you know, which I'm hoping they have that chance. I, as you know, I come from a three principles, deep three principles background with my father having met Sidney banks when I was probably eight or 10 years old and traveling with him to salt spring island and watching his development over time.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (17m 13s):
And then also following my own instincts when I was younger to actually become an activist and a writer in college, I was in the journalism school at Medill at Northwestern, and started to look into the central intelligence agency and what the CIA was doing. Now, this is kind of interesting because Trump actually pointed this out to Donald Trump in the United States. So there's a way that he tends to cross over and point to different things that the left and the right might both agree on are people who are a little feeling disenfranchised the system.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (17m 53s):
And I bring up Trump because I had dropped all of that when I really found the principles. And that was after going through a depression, being a journalist writing about, about depression and writing about how, you know, the, the mental health field in psychiatry in particular had decided when Prozac came out and the SSRI medications, that this was all bio biochemical, the media, the media kind of took it and ran with it that way. And then we all started to think like, oh my gosh, my brain chemistry is bad. You know, and I really saw the limitations of that.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (18m 34s):
Cause I thought, well, gosh, what if you take medications and they stop working? What if nothing's working for you that way then? And what about the human spirit? You know, because I had, I had come out of my depression in my twenties via insight really, and, and changing my thinking. So, so I ended up after writing about depression, leaving the journalism world and really seeing deeply that the things I was writing about in journalism and the problems people were having with depression and so forth in the, like in journalism, I'd write about a bad guy, you know, who was like making all kinds of money and doing terrible things.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (19m 19s):
You know, I'll have to say it cause it's, it's really the thing that shifted me the most. But I was working on a story about a penile enlargement surgeon kind of gone amuck that is a bad place to go. <inaudible> crossing my legs, we making mode and had all these guys coming down and you know, it was running like a butcher shop practically. And I interviewed one of his victims. And I just remember thinking when the victim was very caught up in the victim story, like he just couldn't, it wasn't fixable or it wasn't getting fixed.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (20m 5s):
And he was so intent, like that was so important to him. And I could see how he just was really hurting him to be so focused on this. And then also the guy, the doctor, I don't think I'll name him because I don't know what he's doing now. I know he lost his license, you know, I, you know, he, I just thought, okay, well he's, he's lost his license. I think he ended up moving to another state, but, but someone else will do this. You know, someone else will come along and decide to make money this way. So I really did see, you know, that the root of all of our problems is in our insecurity and our in thinking that well-being lies outside in, in wealth, in power, in prestige or whatever thoughts we have about what we need.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (20m 59s):
So that's why I got into the three principles. And then it was when Trump got elected and I know people feel differently about Donald Trump, but I think we can all agree that the United States has become so divided around him that we're ready to almost ready to go to war with him, each other. That's what I saw. It sort of woke up in me. I have cousins who are half black in Michigan who were attacked while they were trying to vote. It happened to be by Trump supporters. That doesn't mean that all Trump supporters consider themselves to be racist.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (21m 41s):
But I did a lot of research into Donald Trump's background and his father and his father was arrested at a KKK rally in New York, the dog whistling, you know, do you guys know what dog whistling is?

Rohini Ross (21m 56s):
Yeah. But maybe explain because probably not everybody does.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (22m 0s):
Yeah. So dog whistling is when you say something like a dog whistle is you with grit and humans can't hear, but dogs can hear so some people can hear, but most people can't hear. And that's what a dog is with a white supremacist code or simple. And so he was putting out in his family, all these codes and symbols, like there's a 14 word statement. That's been made very famous by white supremacists who ended up actually dying in prison. I think it's something like we must protect the United States for the white children, something, something 14 words.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (22m 42s):
And so Donald Trump would sometimes tweet out 14 words and sometimes he capitalized his H's H and H stands for, for Heil Hitler. And then H is also the eighth letter of the alphabet and eight, those eights look like ages. So if you go to his merchandise website, you know, there are a lot of products, at least there used to be that that have a price of $88. And this is all stuff that white supremacists understood. I understand. So it creates plausible deniability. Like, no, he's not racist because look, he's got Omarosa working for him or, you know, whoever, whoever Kanye west meeting with him.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (23m 29s):
But, and I don't know if he's just trying to play all sides or what's, you know, but my sense is there's deep racism there and he, and he's also believer in eugenics and superior genes. So I actually didn't know that we'd get into all this, but I'm just trying to, because as a former journalist, this is my inclination is if I don't understand something, I go try to figure it out. And I generally know how to do the research and separate the wheat from the chaff. And, you know, I found these videos of Donald Trump talking about superior genes and eugenics. And that was the first thing that really alarmed me.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (24m 10s):
And so I think that since 2016 I've been paying a lot of attention to social justice issues. We call it social justice. And I think that might not be the best phrase because it sounds you hear social justice and you think of, you know, marching in the streets with signs, really social justice is just about what I think we all believe in as three principals, students or people who are interested in the principles or interested in spirituality, that we are all created equal, that we are equal and we may not and be equal in different things and skills and education level and finances.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (24m 57s):
But ultimately, basically I think what we all sense and feel is this, this, when we, when we sink into our quiet mind and we have this lovely feeling, there's somehow we know that that's the same feeling that other people have when they sink into our quiet, into their quiet mind. How do we know that it's kind of mysterious, but we do. And I was just talking to Karen off for my heart of America show. She's an Alaska native. And she was so sweet because she was talking about how as an indigenous person, there's also, there's often a lot of reverence for the indigenous connection to the land.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (25m 42s):
And when I would mention that she actually put which back a little and said, yes, but that's something that we all have. We all have come from societies that were indigenous. Yeah. We're very connected to the land. And so we need to remember, you know, and our job is to help you remember that would come from the land and we'd depend on the land. And that there's a feeling, in fact, she shared this word with me, which I'm not going to try to pronounce, but it was one of her Alaskan native words in that language that she shares with her tribe. And it, the word meant what you hear when you listen to nature.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (26m 33s):
Yeah. Yeah. So, so I get, why am I bringing all this stuff? I think what I'm trying to share is that we, we feel connected. We know we're equal. I think, I think most people feel way actually, unless we're in a, like a battle torn war zone where there's been so much hurt and pain and trauma on both sides for so long that people can't think straight anymore about their common humanity. But I think that's in the spiritual world. We can sometimes just want to so much in the feeling and the understanding of that, which is a beautiful thing.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (27m 14s):
But that doesn't mean that when someone is say being abused or when someone comes to power, who is actually going to be abusive and you can see the patterns or see the legislation or, or whatever's happening, that you wouldn't step up. You know, you know, like if a child's running into the street, you don't sit there and think about how, you know, we're all one we're aligned. It's going to be fine. You know? So, so it became important to me in 2016 and to engage in the world of form and specifically in politics.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (27m 55s):
And I can do that even with, I mean, it's, it's hard for me because I know like, as an Asian American person, when Donald Trump started say the Wu Han flu and the China flu. And then, and then I heard that he was saying the cone flu, but it wasn't in public. I remember Kellyanne Conway was interviewed and asked, are you guys saying the country flew at the white house? And she said, no, absolutely not. You know, but then at the Tulsa rally that he had before, the 20, 20 election, he led everybody in like a chant, say it with me, the calm flu, you know?

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (28m 38s):
So as an Asian person, I started to understand along with what happened with George Floyd being murdered and the, the black lives matter resurgence for the re re-energize energization of that movement. I thought, you know, I just don't think a lot of white people understand what it feels like to have someone in power who is willing to mock you. And to know that even if he's not going to go attacking you in the streets, even if he says, oh, I love Chinese people or whatever. He says, all the racists are activated.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (29m 19s):
And I don't mean racist. Doesn't, that's, that's all people are, but there are a lot of racist people, you know, they don't even maybe understand their racism and it's not all they are, but it's led to violence against Asians. And we see that the, that there are a lot of police who, who are racist. I don't, I wouldn't say all police, cause I don't know about that, but I do know that that a lot of police are, and then we just, all of us are racist on some level,

Rohini Ross (29m 53s):
The conditioning is in societies, what you're saying.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (29m 57s):
Yeah. So I had to start to weigh how much harm would come from me speaking out and maybe, you know, losing clients or, or, or harming my own spiritual reputation or even turning off. This is a legitimate concern. I think turning off Republicans and conservatives from my practice. Right. Because they need the help and an understanding just like everybody else. And I understood that. So this is what I mean by being deliberate. I had to think it through versus, you know, I think that if this guy stays in office, we are all in deep duty, you know, and the amount of suffering will be huge, you know, not just for the us, but for the world, because there's a global movement around Trumpism and Q Anon and white supremacy and, you know, et cetera.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (31m 5s):
So, so yeah, I, I guess I, I guess I feel a little bit, like people might think I've become unhinged or something and I don't even know if that's true, but I have people unsubscribe from my newsletter. I know, you know, how that calls, you know? And so a part of me just wants to say, Hey, I'm really thinking, you know, I'm really content. I'm trying to be contemplative. You know, it was hard to Trump because, and this is what I don't think all white people can understand. It's like, it's so scary in the world, in the world of form.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (31m 45s):
That doesn't mean I walk around scared. I don't, but to think about a president of the, the leader of the free world, one of the largest, most influential, the most influential democracies on this planet being like this, you know, being authoritarian and cultivating white supremacists and, and, and conspiracy theories, you know, anyway, I just, I just decided, no, I think I need to put my energy. I want to put my energy into, into the election or into protesting or, or whatever.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (32m 29s):
Yeah.

Rohini Ross (32m 29s):
Yeah. And would you say that it was helpful to have the foundation that you have in your spiritual understanding? Was that something where you felt you were coming from that and being inspired by your love of people, your, your love of, and belief in the universality and equalness of all beings? Is that something that you feel was informing your actions?

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (32m 58s):
Yeah. Yeah, because I had personal relationships, like with my cousin, I'm still close with my cousin in Michigan who was called the N word, you know, and then, you know, verbally attacked by this white Trump supporter at her polling place. And then she had to quit her job because after Trump was elected her employer, who was just a single individual, I think she was serving as a caretaker, started to say all kinds of racist things to her, you know, and she just couldn't stay in that situation. And so I was tracking how people who were racist were becoming emboldened, you know, and I don't even see it as an us against them.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (33m 40s):
It's more like racism is, racism is not good for anybody including racists. And, you know, there are beautiful books out by these black women now, Isabel Wilkerson and Carol Anderson and a woman named Heather. I can't remember her last name. She wrote the, some of us. I haven't read that one, but they, you know, there's so much that black people could be angry about and indigenous people in this country. And yet these books I'm reading really they're coming to this place of like, we just, we it's hurting all of us. Yeah, no, I think it's Heather McGee. She's on YouTube quite a bit too, but she talks about how, because of racism, a lot of cities in the south shut down public swimming pools and filled them with like cement.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (34m 32s):
And it didn't provide just the basic infrastructure for healthy communities because they didn't want black people to access, access these resources. So, so nobody got the resources. And that's what we're seeing now is that there's so much income disparity in the United States that we could address together. But it's much harder if we're separated by racism and white supremacy, you know, Asians or other, and we need to attack them or, you know, yeah.

Rohini Ross (35m 22s):
I think that's a really important point how damaging it is for society in general when there's division on that level. And that ultimately it does support that economic differentiation and unfairness on that level, having multiple groups separated and pitted against each other and not being able to coalesce and really work together in that way. And I think that that's perhaps one of the, the bigger visions is that it's not, it's not sort of the black lives matter movement.

Rohini Ross (36m 4s):
Isn't just about African-American or black people. It's for everybody. And all of these different movements, whether it's related to racism, whether it's related to equality regarding sexual orientation, all of these different ways that people are marginalized, that ultimately it's in the coming together and seeing that any marginalization is painful for society. And that inclusivity is what allows us to strengthen and grow together. But it will challenge power structures because there are certain power structures that benefit from that.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (36m 41s):
Yeah, I guess so like, right. And the benefit is not really substantial. Right, right. They benefit from perhaps more money and more of a feeling. Maybe people, I, I, it's hard for me to relate to this cause I've never, I don't think I really had this feeling, but probably, you know, maybe leading a group or leading a training and feeling important, you know, but there's probably a sense of power and influence that people get kind of addicted to or attached to. We know, I mean, the, the, the, I guess the hope is that the feeling of like, for me, opening my mind and my heart during the, the explosion of the black lives matter movement and touching base with people I've worked with across the country who are black, it felt really good.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (37m 38s):
It felt like my heart was open. So it's, it's, it's funny when I see people wanting to be against that. I think, you know, it's, it's, they're missing an opportunity and it doesn't mean you have to agree with everything that any black lives matter. Activists says, they're all gonna say different things. And there are bad things that happen. And there's, you know, people who are confused everywhere. Right. I think that's my greatest hope is that I, I think actually in this country, even though Thomas Jefferson and others were slave holders, you know, and we're, we're learning a lot about the history now and even Abraham Lincoln, you know, wasn't so keen on black people, you know, were something about what they wrote down in the constitution.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (38m 29s):
And the bill of rights was so true that we're all, we all still resonate. And we all like, to me, that's the American dream is we fight for those things. And American dream in a way involves a certain amount of quote unquote fighting, you know, meaning we get out to the streets and we push for equality. My goodness, it's such,

Angus Ross (39m 3s):
It's such a big issue. And I think that, I think there's been a part of me that how does little old me kind of get a get around it? How do I get my head around this? How do I even begin to articulate what perhaps I'm seeing in a really small way? And I think that there was something that you said earlier in referencing the lady in Alaska. I love the idea that there's a word for our, for how we might have a relationship with nature. And I think the way that I have been beginning to see how there is this sort of schism in society, you look at the political landscape and how it's so divided is it starts to look a lot, like it's a sort of separation, it's a symptom it's symptomatic of a sort of general separation from our essential spiritual nature.

Angus Ross (39m 54s):
And, and there was a, I forget the name of the, the doctor, doctor of anthropology who wrote this book. And, and this is something that really kind of impacted me where he said that there was an indigenous culture. And I think it was an Australia who, and he said that this is pretty typical with indigenous cultural, a lot of indigenous culture. They don't even have an, a word for individual. They see everything in collective terms. And that seems to me, that slot, that sort of rung true in essence be kind of are all one. And that's why maybe indigenous cultural kind of more attuned to that. What are we going to call it a frequency of field, our essential nature, you know, that's maybe how I would articulate it.

Angus Ross (40m 40s):
And there's something around this idea that when I heard that or read that, and then I thought, well, isn't it interesting how you look at Western civilization when they are so sort of individualistic in their outlook and they go back in their outlook that it kind of like, kind of makes sense that we get very tribal, even though individual implies, it's a solitary, one human being it's like, yeah, you could have an individual culture. That's very identified with that culture in a way that this is the only way this is how we roll. This is how we do things. And it's completely born out of a separation of our essential spiritual nature. I don't know, that's something that I've been exploring.

Angus Ross (41m 21s):
And I have conversations with clients often. And maybe if we're talking about relationships often will, the conversation will go in a direction. And the possibility of seeing our partners innocence on the basis that that's just their programming and conditioning, put myself in their shoes. I might show up and be the completely I might show up and be the same person. Sometimes people say, yeah, no, I'd be 10 times worse. And that's kind of interesting for me to hear, but there are, nevertheless, there were so many instances where, you know, I find myself reacting to political figures, you know, over, over the course of my lifetime in ways where I feel really judgmental.

Angus Ross (42m 2s):
I want to take a stand, but people often say, it's like, yeah, you know, I kind of get that, but there is this one individual, how do you, like, how do you, how do you see the psychological innocence in someone like Adolf Hitler? Or how do you see the psychological innocence is someone like Donald Trump? And so it's an interesting, it's an interesting point that the conversation finally gets that, but it's, it's hard to sort of have a conversation at that level. Other than for me, it's kind of like, yeah, there is something around the side, whether it's an idea or something around for me, this level of understanding, which I believe is, is developing that we are all spiritual beings having this human experience.

Angus Ross (42m 43s):
And somehow in this whole human experience, we've separated ourselves from our essential nature. We separated ourselves from that love that's inherent within each and every one of us. And then we get very kind of it's them and us. We get tribal. I don't, it's, it's a hard thing to sort of figure out, well, how do we actually, you know, create a, create a movement if you like. And I hope that, I guess for me on some level, this understanding is, is part of that movement we're pointing in that direction, but it's such a, it's such a big issue to take on board. I mean, I really applaud you for really like, be willing to do that because I think a lot of people think, oh, whoa, that's such, that's too big an issue that's too general.

Angus Ross (43m 26s):
It's too deep. How do I even get in the water with that?

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (43m 31s):
And there are probably several issues of thought. He would just one, but you know, I, a certain kind of creature, you know, I, I was a journalist. I went to journalism school. I did investigative journalism for many, six, seven years. And I was an activist. So I'm familiar with organizing people and even getting, I got arrested at Northwestern, you know, and taken to jail. And then we went to a trial and, you know, the whole nine yards. And, and so I don't think everyone's gonna do those things. Some people will do those things. In fact, I was just talking to a man in Canada who started an interesting, it's called common earth.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (44m 17s):
And there's a website for his organization where he's teaching people about climate and what we're now in sort of exponential heating patterns, which is frightening. But he's teaching them about that with the three principles and hoping that our changes can be exponential to match the rate of global heating. And I said, I don't know, I don't know if that's going to happen, but I applaud your effort, you know, and he has his way. And he didn't think he didn't, wasn't thinking much about activism, but then I see people like Gretta, Toon, Berg, and extinction rebellion. And even though they're controversial in some quarters, they have really shifted the dialogue to be much more about the climate crisis as it really is today.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (45m 6s):
And so I see a role for everyone, you know, and, and th th there's also a role and I was watching bill Manohar last night, which is also why I'm told. Cause I think I stayed up till one 30, cause I was like, oh, I never watched bill mater. He's kind of interesting. Cause he doesn't stick with a Nick, a narrow, rigid, ideological perspective. You know, he, he allows that. He'll say if Trump did something he thinks was good, he'll say it. And he talks a lot about how our dialogues have degraded because people became so polarized around Donald Trump that we can't even have conversations anymore or around black lives matter.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (45m 52s):
Or, and so, so wait, why did I bring up bill? Not her? Oh, you know, I just, it sort of struck me again that there are people out there who are willing to have deeper dialogues or to even just teach the principles, which then hopefully helps people become more open-minded you know, and, and that's a really important that we have people whose minds are more flexible. That's still important. Like we can't, we can't have any one of these pieces without the other pieces, you know, they all, and so all I can do, and I told this man from Canada, I said, I can only share what I know.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (46m 34s):
And, and in terms of my activism, I mostly try to educate people about what's really happening, like with Donald Trump or with the environment, the climate crisis, but only they know what to do. It's the same as with anything else in life, you know, that you guys have already learned and that you share. Yeah. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (46m 56s):
And th that's such an important point because what you're saying Angus about, well, this looks too big and overwhelming. That's not listening to the inner wisdom. That's listening to the fear that comes into our minds and that when we get present and if something is important to us and listen within, we'll get guided as to what our action is. And I might look at you Ami, and feel badly because I'm not doing what you're doing, but ultimately you're following your own inner wisdom and I have to follow mine. And it, it is important that we all do that. And we'll all bring our different gifts and talents into addressing various issues in a way that lines up for us.

Rohini Ross (47m 38s):
And, and I think I'd love for you to speak a little bit more because you've talked about how activism doesn't look one way. Do you want to just share a little bit more about what you're seeing around that? Because I think people do have in their mind, like, oh, activism means I'm out on the street, carrying a sign, which is fine. That's great. But there's a whole range of actions that people can take that make a difference in the world.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (48m 1s):
Oh, so many things, you know, Coetry and music and art, you know, like as an activist, when I've been at, and I don't even consider myself, I'm always an activist because I find that from month to month, I'm maybe doing something different. Right. But it's all in a way, action. It's all movement, it's all something. But I, you know, sometimes you feel low and then you read something, you read a poem or you hear upon. And like the poem that was read at the inauguration of Joe Biden, I forget her name. Do you remember Amanda and her last name is escaping me, right?

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (48m 42s):
Foreman Amanda Goren Amanda Gorman. Yeah. Yeah. Or a song, you know, it lifts your spirits. It's like when you, when you're having a bad day and someone smiles at the grocery store and take some time with you, the clerk, it, it means so much. It means more than we know. You know? So that's why I trust wisdom because I mean, my understanding, I don't know that I always am so deeply connected to the, you know, universal intelligence, but even

Rohini Ross (49m 16s):
Your human Ami, I didn't know that

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (49m 19s):
I know I always am, but sometimes I think I'm not, our wisdom is connected to that. So I trust that that intelligence is what we're operating from. And, and so therefore the intelligence sees the big picture. I don't, I don't see the big picture, but one of the things I want to say about activism is that I think my role lately has been with spiritual communities, not just the three principles to actually, I feel like there's been a bit of a barrier around activism or judgment because it's, it seems confrontational on it. It seems perhaps negative could be angry.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (50m 0s):
And, and I, and in some ways I think I took on the role that I took over the last four years, five years, because I wanted to show that part of being human, that it was okay to be angry about, about some of the things that Donald Trump was doing and saying, and that it was almost weird not to be like, it's great to feel angry when people are being girl cheat or racism, or, but I think that the important thing to remember is that, you know, it comes in, it goes, you don't have to live in a feeling anger.

Angus Ross (50m 52s):
I don't think I articulated the point that I was trying to make earlier, because I think that where I stumble is a and there where I have maybe stumbled in the past. And let's saying, have a conversation with a couple, and that this idea of being able to see our partners, psychological innocence on the ground, that I don't need to take this personally, because they're just, they're just a symptom of their own programming conditioning or the culture that they grow up in that that's helpful. And then I was, I guess I do have in my own programming and conditioning around activism, it always feels like, yeah, you gotta be angry. You got to fight the good fight. And I just wonder how that lines up with this understanding.

Angus Ross (51m 33s):
I guess that's what, I've what I really kind of feel like I need some coaching or education around is like, how do you show up and be an activist and not take the behavior personally on the grounds that you see the psychological innocence? How do you come to the table in a way where you can have some level of understanding is it's just an interesting field to sort of think, like, how would you show up in that environment with the principles and this understanding and, and make headway? I think that I've kind of, I haven't seen that for myself and maybe that's why I've kind of like shied away from it. I know that you, you get very much into it.

Angus Ross (52m 13s):
And I'm kinda like, well, I don't see something I don't see enough of. I don't see what you see. I don't see what you both see to make me see how I could teach the principles in that environment. Although I do see the wisdom is wisdom and the, maybe it's incumbent upon me to share that wisdom. And hopefully a little bit of that wisdom goes a long way in someone who I might have a, have a completely different point of view to me. I think that's, that's a really good thing to take on board, but I have had this sort of, this sort of idea around activism. No, you've got, gotta be angry and you've got to fight and, and, and that's probably, okay.

Rohini Ross (52m 50s):
So do you think that the anger is counter to spiritual understanding that what you're saying I've

Angus Ross (52m 57s):
Had that in my conditioning, but I don't, I'm fully open to that being ridiculous, you know, but I, but I, but I, I consent. So I have that, that is an influence.

Rohini Ross (53m 10s):
I think it's also, I'm guessing part of this Angus, like Ami and I are sitting here as, you know, two women who aren't white and you're the white male in the room. Like, I think that must play a role in, in how this impacts in the sense that you're on the side of the fence where you haven't necessarily had to look at the privilege that you live with. Just the fact that you're a man and that you're white.

Angus Ross (53m 36s):
Yeah. I think that there's a sort of defensiveness that's born out of my white guilt or at least managing to make you feel guilty. No, I think that that's, that's, that's, that's realistic for me to come to that conclusion myself, because I think that there have definitely been conversations over the years where you have highlighted some of the ways where I am privileged and I haven't been willing to sort of accept that. But nevertheless, I guess through, for many conversations that we've had, I have got to that place where I, where I do own that, for sure. So it's still, it still feels like it's a sticky place for me to go to go, go to,

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (54m 16s):
What did you think of Martin Luther king and the civil rights movement?

Angus Ross (54m 22s):
I think he's a, an amazing, you know, I use, you know, I use the examples that I might use in conversations that I have citing Martin Luther king being an icon class, someone who trusted his intuition, trusted his essential spiritual nature. And that was a trust that was so beautiful in the sense of what was surrounding him at the time. He had incredible courage to follow that, that dream and that inclination prevail when you're not that he prevailed, but his, his legacy lives on, he did prevail ultimately. So I, I think of him as being one of those individuals that was just really in the face that everything that was against him that was against his spiritual nature.

Angus Ross (55m 4s):
He stood up and still fought the good fight he was coming from a place of love and that he really articulated himself from that place. It wasn't so much, I'm here to sort of fight the establishment. I'm here to like share wisdom and wisdom will prevail.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (55m 25s):
There's a lot of writing from king and a lot of the past speeches that have been recorded. And, and I went back deliberately again to, to, to listen and to try to figure out, you know, how he approached things. And he, it wasn't that he would get to me, it's almost not personal anger. It's performative. It's like, this is so bad that I'm going to, I'm going to be more bold in how I'm speaking. Cause you have to hear this. There's a, there's a video by Kimberly Jones about looters. And I think this was filmed in LA about black looters during black lives matter.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (56m 5s):
And she gets really angry and then she gets really upset all in this one, she starts off very calm and kind of like, I'm going to be rational. The next thing you know, she's yelling and screaming. And then she saw being, and, and the whole time you're watching it, at least for me, I was like, wow, I'm going to go find out about the Tulsa massacre now. And I'm going to go find out about what Rose Wood was, because obviously these were huge events in African-American history that I know nothing about, and they really upset her. And so they must be important if they could still be upsetting her however many years later, a hundred years later, you know?

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (56m 49s):
And so in watching and also reading his letter letters from a Birmingham jail, you know, he, he speaks to the white, moderate churches in the south who weren't joining him. And what's interesting to me is that the same kinds of attacks that we've seen on black lives matter about looting and violence and all of that critique was happening also around Martin Luther king it on from the white establishment. So actually at that time, it wasn't like, oh, Martin Luther king, what a wonderful why spiritual person. It was Martin Luther king, the communist radical violent organizer from one side.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (57m 31s):
So I think to me, some of it is about listening and of so much of it is about listening more when people are upset rather than saying, oh, they're upset. So therefore they're wrong, but let me listen more deeply because obviously there's pain there and I don't understand this pain. And so when I bring up past the book cast or white rage, and I think the other books, white fragility and me and white supremacy, those types of books, I feel like should be second, because I don't think you can understand those books until you really understand the history. And so, and so I think that I don't know, I, when I knowing activists the way I do, and if I were an active, I decided I was going to go be an activist with the group.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (58m 18s):
And I went to the group and everybody was angry and pissed off all the time. Then I'd probably not be an activist with that group. My experience of activist groups from extinction rebellion, even at the global level. And I'm not saying they're all healthy, well adjusted people because they're just like everybody else. There's a lot of, there's just a lot of inner work that has permeated society that is spiritual, whether it's mindfulness or different spiritual teachers or Buddhism or whatever people are into that is not absent from these activist movements and the women that I've met.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (59m 5s):
You know, I be friended up one of the organizers of some of our marches in our community. She's 17 years old to such a sweetheart. She's so gentle and she's totally not violent. And yet the PR I don't think the perception in the community is that black lives matter. This Martin Luther king style. I think one of the things that upsets people is that in order to really get attention, you have to, there's a book called shut it down. You have to shut it down. Meaning if you just March around on the sidewalks, the media probably won't even show up.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (59m 44s):
It's not until you actually block a road or a bridge. And, and this is part of the function of what it means to be establishment, where these things are of interest. And suddenly they become of interest like with extinction rebellion, when all the bridges are shut down, because people have moved themselves to trucks and vans and put a pink boat in the middle, you know, whatever and place it was, where they did that, or they, or they blocked traffic into the airport. And the reason activists do this is because, you know, the media will come and say, well, why did you have to do it? I don't want to say because you're there.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 0m 24s):
That's why they did it because now you're there with the microphone and there's no other platform, you know, like some of our major protests in the United States against the oil pipelines, by indigenous people, a lot of, probably most Americans don't even know that they're happening. And that's why it gets to a place where people literally are putting their lives on the line. And there's a lot of love, you know, it's not, it's not perfect, perfect. Like Sydney banks isn't meeting, you know, I don't know if he would do or not, but he probably wouldn't.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 1m 4s):
But, but the spirit of Sydney bigs, you know, it's not, I don't think that's true all the time, but if you watch like awake at dream from standing rock, it's really the elders and the, and the young people who, who are indigenous, who are telling the what a lot of the white activists who show up, this is not about violence. It's not about you. We're going to be non-violent and we're going to love and pray for these tigers Swan or whoever security forces, the police forces that were there. So, but the confrontation isn't important because without the confrontation, there is no impetus for anyone to pay attention or for anything to change.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 1m 50s):
Because if you go to the media, they're not interested. If you go to the Congress, they have no reason to. I mean, and I think that there's also a role for like the people who filled in with all the con all the information and research. And this is what this pipeline is about. Or there's one coming there's. I have two friends going to Minnesota to help with the Enbridge line, three protests. And, you know, people would say, well, we need the oil, we need the jobs. But what I understand when people say that is they don't understand the nature of the climate crisis at this time, we are, we are likely too far gone.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 2m 31s):
We don't know. And then that will mean incredible amounts of suffering, you know, death and destruction. I mean, the balance between a few thousand jobs, it's ridiculous to think about. And the oil coming from Canada from tar sands is extreme, incredibly dirty. And it, it has a heating capacity. That's like 50 to a hundred times. Don't quote me on this, go look it up. Regular crude oil. So it's really bad. If you look at tar sands in Alberta, the ma where they do, where they extract the oil, it's like a hellscape up there. So there are a lot of issues besides the water and the land and the indigenous sovereignty of that.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 3m 17s):
You know, of the, of the, the people in Minnesota, the native people who actually have treaty rights that this land is supposed to be there. That happened in standing rock too. It's supposed to be there by treaty rights. And here come the white people and the business people who, and maybe not all white people, but the corporate people saying we don't care. So it's a continuation of what's happened in this country with indigenous people. God's found my soapbox. I love you on your soap box.

Angus Ross (1h 4m 5s):
For me, this is an education. Cause you know, I'm obviously aware about what a peaceful protest means and a peaceful protest would have it's its birthplace would be coming from a position of love, but you take that stand and you are, you are confrontational by virtue of the fact that this is a protest and that you are blocking the road or whatever it needs to be done. It's still coming from a place of love. I guess, for me, it's interesting to consider that I have some sort of legacy, some sort of program programming and conditioning that an activist is someone who shows up and is angry. And I don't know that they're violent, but I, but that my question was with the principals is like, how are you able to sit down and listen to someone?

Angus Ross (1h 4m 46s):
If you're taking a position that's polarized in that way, that's not neutral. It's not willing to listen to the other side, despite the fact that what they have to share reveals. So diametrically opposed to our own beliefs. It's it's it's but it's yeah, absolutely. There has to be that willingness to take this peaceful process and it will result in, and you know, it's going to be very problematic, but it's still born out of love. So I'm interested. I guess I still have had this opinion that somewhere along the it's two parties willing to sit down and listen to each other because they're so polarized in their anger that never the Twain shall meet on that level.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 5m 27s):
Well, we don't know if they're both polarized in their anger, but we know that they have different views of oil, oil pipeline or whatever. And so Martin Luther king addresses this and his, his philosophy on non-violence, which is first you go and talk and you try to have a conversation. You, you may come at it with love. You may come at it with big, huge, open listening ears, but that doesn't mean that the other side is going to meet you there. And, you know, and that's what he was up against in the south is they did try to meet with the police and the governmental officials and they weren't interested.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 6m 11s):
And here we have black people being lynched, you know, and killed and beaten for trying to vote or whatever else was happening. This was a lot, I mean, massacred until the Tulsa maskers then unreal what happened? So, so at what point it's like, if someone breaks into your home and then your children are there and they have a knife and they look pretty intent, you might say, excuse me, could we have a talk? You know? And then they might say, no. Then what do you do when they see, that's what you're looking at? What is the balance of danger of harm?

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 6m 53s):
You know, and, you know, I think for me as an activist, you, I see more systems and institutions and patterns of thought. But if I would always be willing to try to have a conversation with somebody, if they were willing to have the conversation, and I think sometimes activism because you are in opposition, it's easy to start to create a judgment, a box around an individual. And I think what king was so good at was always assuming that someone could change. I feel like that that was one of his fundamental premises was that someone could change.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 7m 34s):
Although I've called Jamie diamond, the CEO of chase bank five or six times to return my phone calls. And I text her secretary and I say, you know, I'm a mom, I have two kids, you know, I saw the sea stars die and dissolve here. You know, the kelp beds are gone. I need to talk to Jamie diamond. And so far I haven't gotten a return. Yeah. I call these banks a lot and that had a lot of the people on the staff. They're actually pretty sympathetic, you know, they me, and they're like, God, yeah, okay.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 8m 18s):
I'm going to pass this message.

Rohini Ross (1h 8m 21s):
And, and that's, I think a key piece, one, what are the things that we want to do? You know, calling banks, going to Minnesota, like your friends are going writing letters. Like what are the things that we want to do that, that work with our lives that we feel inspired to do? That's important. And also, I think what I hear Angus with you kind of with your eyes, your mind sort of opening up is to understand that love can look lots of different ways. Like if you know, that example, the Ami's with our family, like I don't, I think because you love our family, that if someone was intruding, that you would use force if needed, and that would be coming from love.

Rohini Ross (1h 9m 2s):
And so to understand that we can't judge how love shows up, it's going to show up in looking in, in different ways. And that emotion is not, not something that means that love isn't there. And so if there's anger present, it doesn't mean that there isn't a deep foundation in love. And I know that Martin Luther king got angry by writing that letter from Birmingham jail. He wasn't happy. He wasn't a happy camper with those moderate white churches at that point in time. And I know that he started to question, cause I know Malcolm X was sort of critical of his nonviolent stance, but I think Martin Luther king even started to question some of that in terms of how do we make change when the other side is going to resist in the way that it resists

Angus Ross (1h 9m 52s):
In military terms, it would be a case of diplomacy can only go so far.

Rohini Ross (1h 9m 57s):
And, and I want to be clear, I'm not advocating for violence. I don't, I just don't know unless I'm in a specific situation, what is right. And I'm sure there's going to be situations that if I'm put in, I would have to take care of

Angus Ross (1h 10m 11s):
Nice. Yeah. And I guess if people are hell bent on not listening, it's like, you know, what do you do? I mean, that would be enormously for us.

Rohini Ross (1h 10m 19s):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and that isn't going to get in the way of the truth, that we are all connected with this spiritual energy and this one source, like it kind of, it can't damage it. If somebody's getting angry, it doesn't take away that truth. It doesn't mean they're less spiritual. We're all equally connected to that source. And we have to show up in the way that's authentic.

Angus Ross (1h 10m 45s):
Probably provide us with a perfect thanker in all of the ways that we do get polarized or, or are in conflict. There's always that. Right. Okay.

Rohini Ross (1h 11m 5s):
So Ami, is there anything else that we haven't covered that you feel you'd like to share in terms of this conversation? I know there's so much more to be said, but for this conversation today, I know, I feel like we've only scratched the surface. I know we've only scratched the surface. This is like the starter

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 11m 20s):
Course. If you do a part two, one day, I, you know, it's funny. Cause I thought we were going to talk about the Chinese lantern festival and the patient hate crimes that have been happening. But I think this has been a lot and Angus, I really appreciate, you know, there's something about your willingness to be honest, you know, even in, in a podcast or, or in front of an audience that is very touching and moving. And I, I think for me, you know, I have this saying wisdom is a moving target. And so I think what I'm most interested in is always looking at where people have rules about what is okay to do either spiritually or in society, or, and I think as soon as we run up against that, then that's where there's some place to look and become curious with ourselves and to learn more.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 12m 19s):
And we may look at an activist group somewhere and say, oh, that looks awful and horrible. And what are they doing? But then maybe we don't know. So we go and we find out more and then we decide, oh, you know what, actually, I'm going to go join them, my tent and my cooking and my camping gear and everything at line three or, or where we were. Right. That's, it's possible, you know, but I think it's really the way that we create, especially, and it's harder for white men on it's not to blame them. It's really just to say in your history, you've never had to fight for these things.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 13m 1s):
And then women know that we're only here because of fighting, you know, fighting in the streets to get the right to vote, to be able to work, to be able to, you know, wear pants. You know? So I mean, in so many other things and then black people know that so deeply how hard it's been to just to be even seen as human. It's a whole different history. It's a whole different background. It's a whole different knowing of the world where your freedoms and your equalities now are built on protest.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 13m 43s):
You know? So you, you have a respect for that, that you probably wouldn't have as a, as a white man or a state, a very wealthy white man. Who's never had to think about such things, if that makes

Rohini Ross (1h 13m 56s):
Sense. Yeah. It makes complete sense. Yeah.

Angus Ross (1h 13m 58s):
I can't, I certainly can't say I'm a wealthy white man, but I certainly have that, you know, I have that programming conditioning and I'm very aware of it. Now. I

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 14m 6s):
Was trying to give you like trying to create another book where you were outside of that you were the wealth.

Angus Ross (1h 14m 18s):
I am getting much more conscious of the fact that there's so much in my languaging that I don't even, I'm not even conscious of that has that bias built in. Then that's just, hopefully, you know, that's just something that more and more people are developing a sense of awareness around and for the likes of you, Ami, thank you. Because in your activism that, that gets put into the zeitgeists I imagine is that people now start to become more hip to the fact that, you know, what, those words just came out of my mouth, but I can see how that upsets and offends people when, before I would be like, man, just words. It doesn't really mean anything, but those words are really powerful in their implication.

Angus Ross (1h 14m 59s):
And I'm getting so much more of appreciation of that now.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 15m 3s):
And that's a beautiful thing because when you have privilege and you're willing to self-educate and to speak, to be more humble, I guess that that's just the word that comes to mind. That's called the proper use of privilege. Privilege is a gift. It means you have the time and space and mental energy to, to be, to, to be educated and to open your heart.

Rohini Ross (1h 15m 31s):
And then you get to look at how to, how to use that privilege in ways that really creates change and supports that. And even just having this conversation and being willing to share it with others is part of that. It's, you know, part of seeing what ripple effects come from that, and not that this is a perfect conversation or that we're giving answers in it, but people, when they get connected with that wisdom, as you're saying, it'd be inside of themselves, we just start to see in our own lives where we can make some change where we can make life, where we can have less suffering within it.

Rohini Ross (1h 16m 12s):
And love ultimately is behind that, you know, creating less suffering is because of love. Yeah.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 16m 22s):
What's interesting to me is that when I'm an activist groups, my tendency is to go is to be pushing for the spiritual, right? So that's kind of how I, where I find myself, does that make sense? Like see that these are all, these are both necessary to one another and I don't think I'd be such an activist if we weren't in these very compelling. And I think in some ways urgent in the world of form times, I see them as urgent times. So there are moments where you need to sometimes take a stance.

Ami Chen Mills-Naim (1h 17m 2s):
So thank you so much. You guys

Angus Ross (1h 17m 4s):
Thank you. It's been wonderful.

Rohini Ross (1h 17m 6s):
Thank you, Ami. And I'll make sure that we add the links to the books that you've, and it's just been a pleasure. And I know that we'll be having more conversations. So looking forward to them, thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross (1h 17m 32s):
ITunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross (1h 17m 37s):
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org.

Angus Ross (1h 17m 45s):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.