EP36 Jennifer Miller-Allgeier: Including and Affirming All Identities

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier beautifully ties together the importance of affirming  identities across all gender and sexual spectrums with her own rewilding journey and how it has impacted her marriage and her work. She guides parents on how to speak to their children who have come out or are questioning their assigned gender or sexuality.

In her work as a Pediatric Nurse Practitioner, Jenn works predominantly with LGBTQ youth and she helps us understand some of the best ways to affirm and support members of the LGBTQ community, and how to use more inclusive language in our work. She also incorporates her personal rewilding journey into her work with youth, helping them to see their innate wholeness.

Jenn shares with us about her own hardships in her marriage and how coming into the understanding about her own true nature, that she is always whole, helped her to transform her relationship and rekindle the flames of its long-forgotten honeymoon stage. She reminds us that while something may seem hopeless, we're only ever one insight away from having a new experience.

We explore:

• Affirming LGTBQ youth and how rewilding helps inform this
• Rekindling our relationships back to the honeymoon stage
• Giving without strings attached as self-care

Show Notes
GLESN: Championing safe, supportive, and LGBTQ-inclusive K-12 education in the U.S.
P-Flag: the first and largest organization for LGBTQ+ people, their parents and families, and allies.
Ted Talk: Masturbation is the New Meditation
Rewilding Feminine Pleasure with Rohini Ross: Free 10-day journey for experiencing more pleasure and intimacy in your life.

Jenn Miller-Allgeier is a Rewilding Guide, Pediatric Nurse Practitioner, and Reiki practitioner.  She has studied spiritual and holistic healing throughout her life and in 2017 began her journey with the inside-out understanding. After personally experiencing how the understanding of our true nature could provide relief and freedom from anxiety, she began incorporating it into her work with youth. More recently, she has begun to leverage this understanding to reach families, communities, and organizations with the goal of increasing respect and compassion for all identities and people, Offering services that promote the development of equitable, just, and supportive relationships.

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.

Episode 36  features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.

See full show notes here.

Transcript

Angus Ross (4s):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross (12s):
This is episode number 36, an interview with Jennifer Miller-Allgeier.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (19s):
We're living in our culture. We're so immersed in it. We don't sometimes see that culture that we're inhabiting.

Rohini Ross (23s):
I was stepping over a ledge into my blind spot.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (28s):
It's really important for people to see people that look like them. When they're looking at offerings, when they're looking at educational materials,

Rohini Ross (36s):
This is not some new thing. What's new is the language, the acknowledgement within this culture

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (43s):
In some indigenous cultures, they have the term two-spirited. So they acknowledge that is completely normal.

Rohini Ross (50s):
The rewilding experience is waking up to our true nature. And in that experience, there's often an awakening of a lot of energy.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (60s):
I had expectations that if I gave it this level, if I gave this much, that, of course, that person would give me back the same level,

Rohini Ross (1m 10s):
Understanding that you were up against intrusive thoughts, not an unresponsive husband. I started

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1m 16s):
Making up stories and I wasn't able to have that connection. Why was

Rohini Ross (1m 20s):
It like that in the honeymoon stage? Because we were just so present in the moment. That's why it was so amazing. So that can happen at any time

Angus Ross (1m 30s):
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross

Rohini Ross (1m 34s):
and me Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross (1m 36s):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross (1m 40s):
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded.

Angus Ross (1m 47s):
Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work

Rohini Ross (1m 54s):
And how it has helped them in their relationships,

Angus Ross (1m 57s):
Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross (2m 10s):
Welcome to my first solo episode. And in today's episode, I'm speaking with Jennifer Miller. Allgeier Jen is a pediatric nurse practitioner, and she's also one of the graduates of the six month rewilding guide practitioner training program that I facilitated last year. And I will be offering that again this year in October. And that training is for people who want to learn how to work with others from the same understanding that Angus and I work from Jan works with LGBTQ youth and offers consulting to businesses and organizations who want to be inclusive and who wants to understand and learn the best ways to affirm and support people of all identities.

Rohini Ross (2m 58s):
That is one of the reasons why this conversation came into being, and it's a bit embarrassing for me to say, but the impetus for our conversation was me not being able to answer a question that came forward at one of my supervision webinars, where I was sharing about an upcoming free webinar series that I'm facilitating. And I said that the series was for women and on the webinar, I was asked what that meant and who that would include. And I didn't know how to answer that question because I wasn't clear myself. And so fortunately Jennifer was on the webinar. I asked for her support and she jumped in, but this started a conversation with us afterwards, where we spoke, where I could learn more and she was able to help me shed some light on some of my blind spots around inclusion.

Rohini Ross (3m 50s):
And so I'm hoping that this episode is really helpful for you as you're listening to it, and that it is educational and informative, and perhaps even illuminating in terms of the program that I was originally talking about, where Jen jumped in, it's going to be coming up at the end of July, and it's called rewilding feminine pleasure. This course is going to be 10 days of live webinars, focusing on cultivating feminine sensuality. And it is for women and feminine individuals, including transgender and cisgender women, as well as femme feminine, identifying non binary people.

Rohini Ross (4m 30s):
And so Jen helped me get very clear on the inclusivity of who would benefit from the offering. The inspiration from the chorus comes from several conversations that I've been having recently with women who have felt disconnected from their sensuality and their ability to experience pleasure and feeling beholden to their partners, feeling disconnected and shut down internally. I know that this isn't just the case for women. I think that there's an overall disregard for what we might associate with the divine feminine and feminine qualities where pleasure has not been valued in our society.

Rohini Ross (5m 16s):
And that there's a lot more attention on doing rather than being. And so I thought that this offering would be a great space to explore how to connect more deeply with pleasure. One of the key foundations for that is safety. So I'm very clear in my intent of creating a safe space for the conversation and supporting all the participants with experiencing more pleasure in their lives and all of the different ways that that can show up, whether it's through creativity, connection, sensuality, sexuality, there's such a broad spectrum. And we tend to not look at the importance that in our day-to-day lives for our mental, emotional, and physical wellbeing, and that if we're not really able to experience pleasure that that's a key signal for us to pay attention, to and to look at what might be revealed for our learning and growth and upliftment.

Rohini Ross (6m 19s):
If we look in that direction, if you're interested in that you can go to the rear welders.org website and the page for signing up for that is available now. And as I said, it's a free program and I'm really looking forward to facilitating that. I'm looking forward to seeing what I can learn from that experience. Angus, won't be participating in that program. It's just going to be me. And if you have any questions, email, and let me know, I'd be happy to answer them also, just so you know, the intention is to do a counterpart course in the fall that will be focused on rewilding masculine intimacy.

Rohini Ross (7m 0s):
So back to this episode, Jen provides a really valuable education regarding inclusivity, and she also shares very generously from her own experience of feeling rewelded in her own life and that journey, she shares how it was humbling at first to see the role that she was playing innocently in some of the challenges that were coming up in her relationship, but with a deeper understanding of where her experience comes from and a greater awakening within herself, this ultimately led her to rekindling her relationship with her husband, which is really inspiring. So I hope you enjoy listening to Jen share and enjoy the episode.

Rohini Ross (7m 45s):
As I said, it's my first solo one. If you have any feedback for me, I welcome it. I'm all ears and enjoy this episode. Well, thank you so much for being here with me today. I'm really excited about this conversation and this is my first podcast that I'm doing solo. So you're my inaugural solo guest. Kevin,

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (8m 16s):
Thank you. I'm so very excited to be here with you and excited for being here for the first solo events. So that's awesome.

Rohini Ross (8m 26s):
Yeah. And I want to share a little bit about how this conversation came into being, because it was very organic and spontaneous in my work. And in conversations recently, it's really been coming up a lot around women, having issues around being able to enjoy sex, to enjoy their own sexuality, feeling very turned off by it and numb to that or not interested. And it was just one of those themes that was coming up from all different angles. And so when that happens to me, I start to pay attention and I thought, okay, what can I do here in terms of being of service?

Rohini Ross (9m 8s):
What might I be able to offer? Because for me, the rewilding experiences waking up to our true nature. And in that experience, there's often an awakening of a lot of energy could be emotional energy that we haven't been present to could be sexual energy that we haven't been present to. So to me, it's all part of the alive newness of who we are. And as we connect more deeply with our true nature, we become more present to the fullness of who we are, not just on the spiritual level, but also on the human level. And so what I got inspired to offer as a free 10 day program, that's going to be coming out at the end of July and it's the title of it now, and I've changed the title and we can talk about that is rewilding feminine pleasure.

Rohini Ross (10m 2s):
And it's definitely going to look in the direction of sex positivity, but it's not just focused on sex. It's really about awakening to the pleasure of the human experience, to the central pleasures. That's available to us to all of that. And so I was sharing about this program, giving a sneak preview of it on a supervision call with the rewilding guides and also share a little bit about who they are. So I ran a six month practitioner program that started last year, and I'm still offering ongoing supervision calls for the practitioners that participated in that program who are all amazing certified guides who are bringing this understanding out into the world and all of those unique ways.

Rohini Ross (10m 44s):
And Jen is one of the rewilding guides. And I'm so grateful that you're on that call because as I was sharing about the program, one of the guys at that time, it was called rewilding pleasure for women. And the question that came forward was, well, I don't identify as a woman, but I identify as female who is this program for. And I immediately realized that I was stepping over a ledge into my blind spot and something that I needed to learn more about and educate myself more on, because I didn't quite know how to answer that question. And fortunately, Jen was on the call.

Rohini Ross (11m 24s):
Jen, can you help out here? What am I trying to say? Because I don't really know. Oh, and that was a big impetus for us having this conversation because one, I want to educate myself more, but I think it's, it's a conversation that is valuable for everybody and Angus and I are really committed to inclusion diversity and educated, educating ourselves on those matters. I mentioned to you, Jen and I had to check with my daughter that she was okay with me sharing this, but our younger daughter came out to us as gay probably just a month ago now. So there's all of this exciting exploration going on.

Rohini Ross (12m 4s):
And it was something that was really celebrated in our home. And we're really proud of her for having that self-reflection and freedom within herself to, to share that with us and the community at large, with her friends and so forth. But I'm just really looking forward to you sharing more of what you shared with me already as part of the evolution of how the title changed on the program. And, and also in general, what your experience had been both professionally and personally, because I know that you work in the area of helping businesses to be more inclusive, to have understanding about being welcoming to all the identities.

Rohini Ross (12m 45s):
And so for me, it's just a really rich conversation.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (12m 49s):
Yeah. I was so happy that we were able to engage in that conversation. And during our supervision, I felt like the last five or six years of my experience and learning was really had come to a place of being fruitful outside of my normal work. So I'm a pediatric nurse practitioner by trade. And I work with LGBTQ youth in my area, and I also helped to educate other community organizations, whether they be social work organizations, educational programs at universities, and that kind of thing, to understand the best way to affirm and support LGBTQ young people and adults in our care practices.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (13m 32s):
So the majority of my work has been within like a medical or social work type setting and looking at that, but the language that we use and the images that we present can really send messages to people in the community, letting them know whether or not they're welcome in the space. And so when we have this discussion in supervision about language, I thought that, oh, this is a really great place to, you know, use some of my personal experience. And I was really grateful to be able to do that.

Rohini Ross (14m 5s):
So what I did is I sent you the link and I said, this is what I'm thinking of doing. I'd really appreciate your feedback. And I'd like to hire your services in terms of consulting me on this. So maybe walk us through your initial reaction, your feedback, just so that it can help everybody understand where you're coming from.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (14m 26s):
Sure. So when I'm looking at something, whether it be pictorials or whether it be written word, I'm looking to see if things are inclusive, if they have language that that reads as open and not closed. And what I mean by that is that we all our fish in this water, right, where we're living in our culture, we're submersed in it. We don't sometimes see that culture that we're inhabiting and in the United States, the culture tends to be very cis-gendered heterosexual oriented. And so it's very easy for people to unintendedly leave out other members of the community who are sexual or gender minorities.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (15m 12s):
So when I'm looking through it, I'm just looking for language that is inclusive, including other identities. That's not focusing just on that cisgender heterosexual normative area. And so in your website, there was only two or three places where there was mention of gender and I made some initial suggestions and then, you know, we'll have a conversation more because I think that even my initial suggestions could be refined to make sure that where I think I over-corrected in some of it. And it was becoming more inclusive of sexual and gender minorities, but were then leaving out the, the Mo the majority. So that's something that you have to have them balanced, making sure everyone feels welcomed, also includes not only making it open and accepting for sexual and gender minorities, but also making sure that the majority is seen in that space too, unless the space is intended just for sexual gender minorities.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (16m 8s):
And then, you know, we can go that way for sure.

Rohini Ross (16m 23s):
In terms of the distinction, in terms of using the term woman versus feminine, are you able to speak a little bit to how, how my use of that word rewilding pleasure for women was limiting versus something that was more expansive?

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (16m 41s):
Sure. So if we're living in this water right where the fish, and we're not seeing what's our culture for what it is just using the word woman, rather than including transgender and cis-gendered women, or non-binary feminine people, a lot of people will assume that we're speaking only to cisgender women and that language doesn't feel as open or as expansive as saying cis-gendered and transgender women. And non-binary feminine people. It's a lot more words, but it's more clear about who you're intending to serve. And so after our initial conversation in supervision, it was very clear that you wanted to serve people who wanted to tap into that divine, feminine energy, but didn't necessarily have assigned female at birth body makeup.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (17m 30s):
And so by expanding the language, we also expand the audience. I also had to look at the photographs and suggested, you know, adding more pictorials that would give that messaging to the audience that they were welcome there, including some pictures of people that maybe looked more non binary or a picture of a transgender woman, because that is really important for our community, whether it be a sexual and gender minority community, whether it be a racial minority community. It's really important for people to see people that look like them. When they're looking at offerings, when they're looking at educational materials in a doctor's office, when they're seeing media on television, when they don't see themselves, they don't feel welcome.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (18m 14s):
They don't feel affirmed. And they kind of just really feel like they're left out this, this isn't for them. It doesn't acknowledge their experience. So by making sure that we have these things present language, pictorials, that kind of thing, we can give clear messaging that they are indeed welcome, and they are able to receive that versus the assumption of, yeah, I met everyone, but wasn't able to message that correctly.

Rohini Ross (18m 41s):
And I think this is where it was one of my blind spots because I looked at age in those pictures, I looked at body shape. I looked at diversity in skin color. Like I thought about a lot of the things when I was choosing them. And that was not the one that jumped to mind. And so that was really good for me to get that feedback and recognize that that really is something that I need to be more aware of in terms of making sure that that's included so that I can be welcoming. And it's, as you're saying, it's not that I want to say I'm specializing in a certain area, or this is only for members in those minority groups, but I do want to be inclusive and welcoming if somebody wants to join in.

Rohini Ross (19m 27s):
And so I really appreciate you helping me to see that and to take that on board in a way that I can wake up more to my unconditioned bias and, and see how that plays out, not just in that area of life, but in every area of life.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (19m 44s):
Yeah. And that's really beautiful when we can have that awakening. And I started doing this work in about 2016, and it was very enlivening because as I learned more and more and more, and I woke up to that, I just became more ignited with the passion to serve people and to make sure that other people could hear these stories and see the depth and richness of these identities. And to understand that there are beautiful whole people who are just, you know, really seeking to be seen and to be heard for who they are and not who people assume them to be. So it was, it's been a really beautiful journey for me, and I love that. I'm able to share that I'm very, very impassioned about sharing it.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (20m 28s):
And so I love that opportunity and realizing while we're speaking over, he knew that I didn't define some terms that might be confusing for people. So I've been saying, you know, CIS, gender non-binary and all of that kind of thing. And I did, I am so apologetic. It's not define those terms. So cis-gender is referring to someone who is assigned gender at birth, and as they grow and develop their gender identity is aligned with that. So SIS in chemistry is like when two molecules around or yeah, two molecules are on the same side of a larger component.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (21m 12s):
And so we use that term cis-gender because both things are on the same side, they align. And transgender is a term that people use to describe people whose sex assigned at birth. Usually based on physical anatomy is the opposite. So someone assigned male at birth, who identifies as a woman. And in my practice, we just say that they are a woman, right? So, so once I know at birth who's a woman would be a transgender woman, someone who is assigned female at birth, but as a man is a transgender man. And so that can be a little confusing for people sometimes and be a little tricky.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (21m 53s):
But those are the terms that we, we currently use to identify those two large groups, two distinctions. Now I want to recognize that the binary or they're being male, female, whether it be cisgender or transgender, can sometimes be a little bit problematic for people, right? So there's a lot of pushback about the way that we define gender, even in this way, that it's one or the other. And really gender is very rich. It's very diverse. There is lots of variability and in our communities and in the natural makeup, even genetically and physically of people, cause we have intersects designations or characteristics in people sometimes.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (22m 37s):
So non-binary or gender queer attempts to kind of encapsulate that other identification. So someone who doesn't identify completely on the binary as male or female, transgender, cisgender, whichever, but it's somewhere in the realm of in-between next to behind. And so when I visualize or think about gender, I think about it in a very three dimensional way. It's not a line it's a cube or sphere, or however you want to think about it, you can be up or down or sideways from female or male. And so a lot of individuals who are like, yeah, physically, maybe I'd like to look more masculine, but I'm feeling very feminine on some days.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (23m 23s):
And, and they have a more divergent way of looking at their gender divergence, really not a nice word, but more nuanced way of looking at their gender. Would it identify as non-binary or gender queer? And then I'll be remiss to not mention that if some people do identify as non-binary female and male, sometimes all at the same time, sometimes feeling differently on different days and commonly people will call that gender fluid if they feel the need to label it. So that is the one-on-one on terminology.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (24m 4s):
And

Rohini Ross (24m 4s):
Then could you also just say a little bit more about intersects just for people so that they understand what that means to you? Yeah. So

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (24m 11s):
People who are born intersex, they either have the physical characteristics of both male or female or underdeveloped of one and some of the other, and that has, again, a very diverse and rich and variable presentation, but then some people are also born intersex, genetically. So there's genetic makeups that are X, X, Y, and sometimes XXX. And those people can sometimes present, for example, an X, X, Y would present as assigned male at birth, but really has a genetic characteristics of female and male.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (24m 51s):
And there can be some breast tissue development, slow puberty and development. In the, in those situations, I've had a couple of clients who actually identify as trans women who are genetically X, X, Y, and they, they did not know that until they, they needed to get some other things looked at as far as like their growth and development as we were caring for them. And there's a lot of times, not always, but there's are a lot of times where people I see who identify as trans masculine, they have a condition called PCOS polycystic ovarian syndrome, where they are producing a, already an endogenously higher amount of testosterone.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (25m 41s):
So there's lots of diversity, even biologically in the community. And so to adhere to the binary of male, female is, is really not what is actually happening naturally and or culturally.

Rohini Ross (25m 59s):
And I think that's also really important to note, this is not some new, new thing coming about. What's new is the language, the acknowledgement within this culture because other cultures and I'm, I haven't done the research well, but I was speaking with someone that was saying that indigenous cultures, there has been a lot more respect for this full spectrum that you're speaking of and that it hasn't been categorized in the same way that perhaps we have in more Western culture,

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (26m 31s):
For sure. And in some indigenous cultures, they have what they would term two spirit. So they acknowledged that as is completely normal and actually in some of the indigenous cultures and something that makes them special or unique it's cause they have two spirits and they're blessed twice. <inaudible>

Rohini Ross (27m 9s):
Can you speak a little bit when we were talking, you talked about the internalized transphobia and the homophobia that is to sort of part of that water that we swim in. And I think that's also really important as, you know, my experience of saying like, wow, that, that is part of that. Me not looking at diversity in that way. I'm certainly not intentionally wanting to be that, but that's part of my conditioning that I'm waking up from,

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (27m 37s):
For sure there is, you know, as the water that we're swimming in, there's a lot of messaging we get from families from our spiritual communities, even just from the media about what it means to be a sexual or gender minority and what place you hold in society as one. And that can be very, very tough for young people as they grow and develop, depending on their family support their community that they're living in. But even as a person who identifies as cisgender and heterosexual, you know, we can internalize those messages too.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (28m 19s):
And think that particular identities are quote unquote bad or that something about them is, is different or not acceptable. And we might not realize that we're internalizing them. We might not realize that we're actually acting on them. And so having that inward look to how am I seeing people? How am I seeing myself is, is a wonderful thing for everyone to do. But for people who identify as LGBTQ, having that look inside and seeing how they feel about it can be scary because what they're seeing is that I'm different, right?

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (29m 3s):
I'm different than what is expected or what is considered appropriate in my family or my spiritual community or I school. And they can very, very harshly judge themselves. And because of that pressure from our cultural beliefs and the way that we messaged to people, a lot of young people experience a severe amount of distress and anxiety and depression related to their identities. Most of the kids I care for between the ages of 12 and 21 and is very rare that I have a client that is not struggling with some sort of internalized trouble and that resulting in anxiety and depression.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (29m 56s):
And the beautiful thing about this understanding and my rewilding guide training and other workshops I've done with you and others in the past is that I am able to be an adult in their life. That's affirming, supportive, sees who they are, firms who they are, but then can point them in the direction of knowing that they're completely whole, that they have innate health with them, that they are love in the world and being enacted and helped to guide them towards seeing that health and seeing that they don't have to take that message. They don't have to make it their own. They don't have to believe it.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (30m 36s):
That can be somebody else's ideas, somebody else's message and that they can believe the true love and wholeness within them. And for so many kids, this is hard. It's hard for them to understand that it's okay for me to trust that how I feel is right, how I want people to see me, how I am me, my true self. It's hard for them to believe it's safe to do that. And I don't blame them. Cause in so many times, it isn't safe in our world to do that depending on your community. And again, you're the family you're living in and the spiritual communities that you might belong to.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (31m 18s):
Sometimes it isn't actually safe, but why work with them to see that it's, it's safe inside of them, it's safe within them and how they choose to open that up to the world, how they choose to express that is on their own timeline and their own level of readiness, but that they can release the ideas of our culture, released the messages that they have seen that tell them otherwise, and just really acknowledge that that's not them, that's not for them. And they can be beautiful and wonderful as just as they are.

Rohini Ross (31m 58s):
Yeah. And that's so affirming and beautiful that you can be that presence in their lives. And that you'll also be helping other organizations to be that presence in a larger group of people. And you're helping a larger group of people. And what you're sharing really speaks to me very personally, as part of the conversation that I had with our daughter. She said that she knew that Angus and I would be supportive. And, and there's a funny story. I don't know if you know, there's a board game that we would play with. The girls called the game of life. Do you know that game? So you have to go through and it's so heteronormative, psych, you have to go to college. And if you don't go to college, you don't, you end up pretty much living on the, I don't know.

Rohini Ross (32m 40s):
I remember all of those things, but they, we would have fun playing this game, but you would have to go through certain life markers. And one of the markers was marriage. And so, and you'd have a little car as one of your pieces on the game board. And when you pass that marker, you would put another, a little piece in that card to go through life with you. And we had always said, you know, when they hit that marker, do you want a blue, a blue one to join you or a pink one to join you? Like there was always choice on that level. So there was, there was some awareness that I had about the importance of not assuming around that, but when I had the conversation with her, she said that she recognized how she had internalized homophobia homophobia, and how that had been, what had made it harder to have the conversation with us, even though she knew that we would be supportive.

Rohini Ross (33m 36s):
It was something that still, she was up against that conditioning within herself. And, and that's part of what we really acknowledged with her was her courage to have that kind of self-reflection and the willingness to share with us and to trust us in that way. And I'd love if there's anything more you'd like to share about that based on your experience.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (33m 59s):
Yeah. It is definitely something that kids are up against. You know, whether I say kids, that's kind of a gist of me, but I mean, you know, I deal mostly with kids, but kids, young people, even adults they're really up against how will I be received and how am I going to feel about that reception? There are a lot of times where people will wait a really long time. They'll know when they're 11, that there's something that they want to share something about their gender identity, something about their sexuality, you know, they know very young, but they don't know how to articulate it.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (34m 40s):
And they don't know how to share it with other people. And they're really, really afraid even in safe spaces like the home that you provided for your girls, they are still afraid that they might've been misreading that or that the rest of the family or the rest of the community won't accept them as they're not able to live their true expression of self to be their authentic self. And I see that all the time and the, and the youth that I take care of when my son was 16, he came out to me as gay. And for a while, you know, I, I had seen some things and I was wondering, and I had asked him when he was 14 and he was very upset with me when I asked him.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (35m 23s):
So I just decided that I wouldn't ask him directly again. And we were working on a school paper for health class, and it was talking about dating and sex. And we went through a whole exercise, just assuming, you know, that he was heterosexual, right. That he was straight. And at the end, I said to him, you know, I know, you know what, I love you, no matter what. And he just said, the answer is yes. So no one ever asked the question again directly, but I acknowledged that that was a possibility. And he let me know. And honestly, for a couple of years, we didn't really talk about it much. You know, there was a lot that he processed through. Anytime I brought it up, he was not open to talking about it.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (36m 6s):
I'm his mom. You know, I don't wanna talk about this with my mom, but now, you know, he works in the area of, well, he worked in the area of sexual health and public health with LGBTQ people. And now he's studying clinical psychology. And his goal is to work and support people in that realm too. And he has just he's flourished, right? He's, he's blossomed. And he's such a beautiful, vibrant, connected, and dedicated young person. And he is just living his best life. And that was a process, right? It was, it was a growing that happened over years for him.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (36m 49s):
And there was always along the way that failure. And we're very lucky to live in a community where there wasn't any true possibility for harm, but for a lot of people, even just a few miles from where we live, the possibility for harm, whether it be emotional or physical is very real when sharing these identities. So it takes a lot of bravery. So when a young person or even an adult person is opening up in that way to you, we should be able to recognize that that takes a lot of courage, a lot of strength and resolve to share. And so that's really a gift and a blessing. If someone is feeling comfortable enough to share that with you.

Rohini Ross (37m 31s):
And I think that was what I was struck by is that the, I could feel from our daughter, that she, she was tapping into that courage within herself. And that was a big deal that she was sharing this information with us in that way. And I was just so proud of her taking those steps and empowering herself in that way. <inaudible> Is there anything that you would like to share for parents around this to support parents navigating unknown territory in this area?

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (38m 18s):
Yeah. A couple of things that I always like to share with parents is that it's okay. That you don't know because you might not, you know, if you're not someone who has one of these shared identities, then you're not going to be familiar, but don't put that on the young person to tell you it's not their to educate you. Now, if they're open and they want to share with you, and they're excited about sharing with you about it, then please receive that. But you can't necessarily ask them to educate you. So using the resources that we have on the web and other community members, there's usually a P flag, which, oh gosh, on the spine, I'm not gonna remember what P flag stands for.

Rohini Ross (38m 59s):
I'll make a note. We can put it in the show notes. That's great. Put it in the show notes. What are you referencing though? Cause I don't know what it is either

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (39m 5s):
An organization that supports families, children and loved ones. And I believe the P is parents in the community and they have all kinds of wonderful services and groups for both parents and for youth. And so you could use that resource as well as online resources like glisten, which is an LGBTQ organization. There's, there's lots of wonderful things and I can send you a list of those resources to rainy and you can put those to the show notes as well. So don't make, don't have the child be your educator, right? That's one thing that I find parents that that's kind of a misstep sometimes, but the other things that I always like to share are that love your child, just love them and let them know that you love them and give that unconditionally without exception and do the best you can.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (39m 57s):
There's going to be situations with pronouns. You know, I at work and great with pronouns, my middle child is non-binary. I mess their pronouns up all the time because I've spent 13 years with them, with one set of pronouns. And now, you know, we've transitioned to the they them pronouns. And I used to say them all the time at work. I, I have to affirm people's identities with their pronouns at work all the time. But at home I just, I make a mistake and I mess up and she forgives me. No baby sister does not. She can sometimes be a little hard on me, but you're gonna, you're gonna make mistakes and that's okay. And when you do make a mistake, you just say, I'm really sorry.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (40m 39s):
I meant to save them and keep it moving. If we overly apologize, if we get caught up in our own insecurity and thinking about, oh my gosh, it just hurts her feelings. What am I supposed to do? Oh, I'm, you know, I'm so bad, right? We can go down that spiral really fast and just catching yourself and saying, oh, I'm sorry. Keep it moving and not get caught up in the processing of this mistake, quote unquote. And that, that really works best for most people. Because when you do get caught up in your insecurity, when you do apologize profusely or make a big deal of the situation, you're now then asking the person that you made the mistake with to comfort you.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (41m 23s):
And that is another emotional burden for people to have to then comfort those surrounding people for. Oh, it's okay. Don't worry. You didn't hurt me. And that's asking a lot someone.

Rohini Ross (41m 35s):
Yeah. And as part of the definitions, 1 0 1, can you say a little bit more about pronouns?

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (41m 42s):
Oh, sure. Yeah. So it's really interesting. There's been a kind of shift across social media where people are putting their pronouns in to kind of acknowledge that pronouns are something you shouldn't assume and pronouns. Are she her, he him, they, them, there are some alternative pronouns. Like Zay Zinzer is with an ax and some non-binary or gender fluid people will use those alternatives. There are other alternative pronouns that are out there. And so when you're meeting someone, especially like in a professional setting in my job, we always introduce ourselves. So I would say, hi, my name is <inaudible>.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (42m 25s):
She, they pronouns. And people don't like me don't necessarily always use just one set. I'm comfortable. She and I, as a gender queer person myself, I'm, I'm fine with both of those identify as a feminine gender queer or non-binary person. I have a lot of privilege in my identity because I'm very CIS passing as a, as a woman, but the movement of putting pronouns in our social media and in our zoom links and zoom names. And that kind of thing is to acknowledge that it's something we should all be talking about, asking about it should be part of our normative culture to just acknowledge that you can't assume someone's pronouns.

Rohini Ross (43m 11s):
Yeah. Thank you. And I really appreciate that clarification. That just again, is all part of making this become a mainstream in a sense to something that people are aware of these assumptions are assumptions, and it's always important to move beyond our assumptions, to what is really present in life so that we can have that deeper connection and deeper understanding as well. And, and have the, the inclusivity that comes with that.

Rohini Ross (43m 59s):
I love to talk more about just the, the more general theme of sex positivity, because I think that that's something as well where there's just a lot of conditioning when it comes to sexuality. That is a weight for, for most people, I think all, all across the board, this was something that came up when we were having our conversation. And I'd love to hear what your thoughts are in terms of affirming sexuality, how that's not affirmed currently, just what's experience with that.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (44m 39s):
Oh gosh. So in my professional work with working with young people, as I mentioned, I work with LGBTQ youth, about 70% of the people I work with are transgender. And the remaining portion of the people I work with are either lesbian, gay, bisexual, and or straight. And so I work a lot with gay men and they come for the health center, just, you know, for the normal services and what have you. But a lot of times we're providing sexual health services. So we talk a lot about sex, sex, positivity about being safe, as far as avoiding STDs and that kind of thing.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (45m 20s):
In my clinic, we prescribe prep, which is pre-exposure prophylaxis for HIV. It's a once a day pill that has two medications that helps prevent HIV up to 95% when used with condoms. And so we're addressing their physical health in, in our visits for the most part, but we also do want to be holistic that can we talk to them about how they're feeling emotionally and how they're experiencing pleasure with their, their partnerships or whether they're participating in sex for pleasure, or if it's more of a feeling of an obligation. Sometimes the young people that I'm working with, you know, they feel like it's the next natural step in their relationship that they really love their partner.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (46m 3s):
And they feel like they need to, or have to have sex. Or there was someone that's already been having sex in a different relationship. And they feel like in order to keep the relationship that they will need to do that as well. And so we try to talk about sex in a very positive way, but also acknowledging that it should be something that is your choice and your choice both emotionally, as well as the physical aspects of it and layered on top of that. So those are conversations I have with all youth, right? Some straight LGBTQ youth included. But when we're talking to people who are lesbian, gay and bisexual, there's the additional judgment that they're grappling with again, where they're maybe not out to their family.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (46m 52s):
So they're not able to have that same kind of sharing of their relationship. If they have a new partner that they're excited about, they might not be able to share that with their family or their friends, because they might not be out to them if they have someone special in their lives that they, you know, typically say, you're you go away to college, you meet someone, you know, you're really excited about them and you want to bring them home to, to meet your family for the holidays and for lesbian, gay, bisexual people, that might not be something that that can happen. And so there is in addition to, you know, the sexual health aspects of our talks and our visits there, that component of like, how are you feeling about yourself and the relationship, how is this relationship supporting you?

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (47m 37s):
And how are you feeling about the way that maybe you can be out in the world with it? And there's a lot of opportunity for, again, just pointing people towards that in the health and the understanding that who they choose to love is not something that is up for discussion from other people that it is based on how they're feeling. And there's no expression of love. In my opinion, that is bad to love someone is to love someone. And the more love that is in the world, the better place, a place that we have to live in.

Rohini Ross (48m 20s):
Absolutely. And what would you say, and I know that we talked about this previously, previously, and you said that this, you were open to the exploration, but I'm curious what you've noticed in terms of your own experience of connecting more deeply with yourself through the rewilding journey, through what, all of the work that you've done in terms of connecting more deeply in that way. How, how has that showed up for you generally? But also in related to sexuality,

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (48m 53s):
I varied early on in my understanding of the three principles and spiritual psychology and all of this stuff I began exploring. And like 2017 was looking really to address anxiety and depression and myself. I'd had a full-term stillbirth in 2006, and I found myself for a little over a decade, just very lost. I was very sad. And so I started exploring this as a way of looking at that, like, how can I feel better? How can I be more happy? And in the last few years, I wasn't looking in this direction at all, but I, it has really opened up my understanding of self as far as like my sensuality in my experience in romantic relationships.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (49m 44s):
And I realized that in myself, I had been using, I don't know if I want to say using, but I had been experiencing affection in a way that was, and this is in retrospect, not while I was doing it manipulative. Right. So I realized that I had been giving and giving and giving, and I'm a very open loving person. And I love I'm a nurturer Virgo. You know, I wanted to take care of people and love people, but I was just like giving a lot and giving probably more than I should have. I wasn't reserving some for myself, but I was not doing that selflessly or unconditionally. I thought I was, but what I saw as I, you know, rewild myself, so many levels was that actually I had expectations of what was going to be returned to me.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (50m 35s):
I had expectations that if I gave it this level, if I gave this much, that, of course, that person would give me back the same level or the same, same thing, thing. I expected that they would know that how I wanted that delivered that somehow they were going to read my mind and understand that the affection I wanted back was going to be same level and exact way that I expected it. So Mike, her husband, needless to say, did not know exactly what I wanted or how I wanted that to be displayed. Now I'm a, I'm a love language person of, of words of affirmation.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (51m 18s):
Okay. And he's more of a, like deeds of service kind of person. Right. And we both liked to spend time together, but because of our jobs, we don't really have a lot of time home together. So he would be very much like, yeah, I'm gonna make sure the house is clean for you. And I would be like, why didn't he tell me? He loved me. So sweetly and passionately, like, so there was a disconnect there. And as I looked deeper, as I looked more on myself, I realized that that was because I was expecting him to be a mind reader. And because I wasn't giving that affection unconditionally, and this also like played out with sex too. Right? So like, I thought, if, you know, if I was creating bed, if I was a beautiful lover, I was doing all the things that he would know to give me those words of affirmation.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (52m 8s):
Like, and there were times where I was giving in all those ways and he didn't deliver what I wanted. And I felt like this just isn't gonna work. This, this has failed. This is, you know, this is it. This is the time where it finally comes to an end. And after doing the inner work and rewilding and looking towards my true nature. And I realized that that's all just my thinking, right? That's all just stories. I made up stories. I made up about what any of it meant, what the affection meant with the words meant what the sex meant.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (52m 49s):
And after realizing that I feel such a weight lifted such a freedom, I don't feel obligated to say or do things because I, I want to get a particular response anymore. And now it's all spontaneous. It's all coming from that deep place of, of love and connection. It's all unconditional. And it leaves me feeling so much more at peace and connected to my husband instead of leaving me feeling like my expectations weren't met and feeling disconnected and downtrodden, that's such an old person where, but yeah, I, it, it's so beautiful how things shifted, just looking in this direction and it wasn't something I thought that I needed to fix.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (53m 41s):
Right. I didn't think there was a problem. I, I believed I bought into all of the storylines. Right. I didn't think I, maybe I did think there was a problem, but I think it was me. Right. So I was like, you know, I'm giving all this, you know, it can't be me giving I'm doing, but it was, it was, it was in my understanding of what it all meant, where the problem line, and, and now it just evaporated. It really just was gone. I think I posted in the rewilding community one day, a little picture of snow weight, like sending a bird off. And it was like my, my little caption that went with it was like intrusive thoughts by, by, you know, like I'm saying, if I buy it at the interest of bucks, because I'd finally saw it.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (54m 28s):
And when I saw it was con and now it's, it's so different. It's so much lighter. It's it feels so much better

Rohini Ross (54m 51s):
Understanding what we're up against is so helpful. Like, you know, that image that you just described, understanding that you were up against intrusive thoughts, not an unresponsive husband makes such a huge difference, but we don't see it. Like you're talking about the fish in water. We often don't see how much our own thinking is creating that pressure inside of us. And it's very easy to pin it on people or things outside of us. And I know for myself, my journey with Angus, there was a long period in our relationship where I really felt resentful because his sex drive was higher than my sex drive.

Rohini Ross (55m 34s):
And it just created such a polarization. And I really got turned off and didn't want to have sex because the more he wanted it, the less I wanted it. And it really looked like if he would change, then all of this would be fine. And if he showed up, as you're saying with the correct way of being with me and it got so, you know, his, he felt so judged by me that it got really hard because he would feel like he was walking on eggshells and that he'd make one false move. And it's like is off game over, forget it. And I would get really kind of impatient.

Rohini Ross (56m 15s):
And he would take that personally. And it just became a mess. Sex became an area in of our life where we would just, both of us end up feeling hurt and feeling very discouraged. And you know, this was early on in our relationship, but there's absolutely been ultimatums that were made, like, if this doesn't get fixed, we can't know, you know, I can't be married to you and, and all of that. And, and I didn't know at the time that that was just his hurt feelings speaking, that was his state of mind. It didn't mean that he didn't love me, but I took all of that very personally.

Rohini Ross (56m 55s):
And it, what it did, was it the way I went with it was just shut myself off from that part of myself and decided that, you know, I don't even need to think about that part of myself. It doesn't really need to be part of my life and if he doesn't want to be with me, so be it, but I'll be fine. And what I didn't realize at the time, and of course, like you said, it's like, we're all doing the best that we can. And, and that's the understanding that we have in the moment, but what I didn't realize, what was, what I was sacrificing for me and how compartmentalizing that in that way was really me in my own fear.

Rohini Ross (57m 38s):
I think of what it meant to really be in that exploration, that isn't just about sex. And that's why the program that I'm going to be doing, isn't say, oh, how to have better sex. That's not the program. It's about how to open to the fullness of who we are and to feel that energy and that since you quality, pleasure, sexuality is part of that. And so as part of my own personal rewilding and waking up to myself, that's what I realized is that there, this is for me. And that it's, it's, it's a way of connecting deeply with myself, you know, sexual pleasure for me, whether it's in partnership with Angus or by myself, that it's a way of, of connecting with that space of spiritual love.

Rohini Ross (58m 27s):
That is really beautiful. And, and it's not just about this conceptual idea of spirituality or this mental idea of what that is. It's like, it's an embodied experience of that energy that has the alive anise in it that I think can sort of get separated out from spirituality. And I know that the tantric traditions don't do that, but a lot of spirituality is, is sort of, I heard one of our guest speakers in the rewilding community. I think he said it in a Zuni, but spirituality is often from the head, the neck up. It doesn't include the body and sexuality is not part of that. And then I think there's a Ted talk. I'll have to look it up for the show notes, but I think it's, it's something like is masturbation the new meditation.

Rohini Ross (59m 12s):
And I just think that there's, there's, there's something happening where people are getting more recognition about the importance of embracing in this human form and recognizing that it's through deep connection with that, a liveliness that we connect with the fullness of who we are beyond our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. So if there's anything that you'd like to add to that, or share about that, I'd love to hear.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (59m 38s):
Yeah. I can relate to everything you just said for sure. When I was younger and, you know, less caught up in the things that happened after I lost my daughter, you know, I felt like I was able to connect in that way more deeply. And I can remember the first time I ever held my husband's hand and like how electric it was and how connected we are. And we've always said, we've, you know, we've been married 16 years, but together 26. And so, I mean, we've been together since we were really young. We've always said that we were, we were destined to be together that we've, you know, our spirits, our souls were, you know, soulmates or what have you.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1h 0m 18s):
But like when we met the very first time, like we hugged, like it was electricity, it was a deep connection. And I think over the years and life, and, and thinking that I, I really got caught up in, after being depressed, I started making up stories and, and I wasn't able to have that connection and looking, you know, back for that, I was blaming it on, you know, as I was trying to blame it on him, of course it was him. Cause I was doing all this giving and now that I I've released that, I've had that moment of clarity. I feel that connection come back. Right. I can, I just, I just look at him and I'm like, oh, you're so cute.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1h 1m 2s):
Like, you know, just even hearing his voice, I'm so excited. And it just, you know, spring to life with just having them close by and being around him. And, and that is all new in all, like, you know, you and Angus talk about all the time with rewilding metaphor. It's all, rewild like, it was there. It's always been there. I experienced it for years before, you know, it went away or before I stuffed it down underneath a lot of thinking and I was able to rewild back to that and to really experience a deep, emotional, spiritual connection with him that is on so many different levels, both, you know, sexual as well as just lovingly and emotionally present.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1h 1m 47s):
And it's, it feels so good, right? It's like, yes, I'm whole, again, I feel like I can give and receive love in a way that was missing. And I, some of the time, I didn't realize how, how much was really missing. Like you said, I kind of just decided, well, this is the way it's going to be. You know, I would try every once in a while to engage with them sexually, like I do this thing, then maybe he's going to, you know, it's going to click something on for him. He's going to get it right. And then it wouldn't happen. And then I would just kind of give up and, and withdrawal from that. And so for him, it looked a lot, like I was on an, on again, off again, right.

3 (1h 2m 32s):
Putting with Jen,

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1h 2m 33s):
Right. Like, what's wrong with her, like doing this? Like she's like hot and heavy three days a week. And then two weeks she's kind of mopey and crabby, like what is wrong? And, and I thought it was him and it wasn't, it was, it was the thinking, it was just the misunderstanding. And the more that I opened up in, the more that we talked about it were able to see like, oh, that's what's going to happening. You know, I was like, Hey, I realized I've been doing this thing. He's like, oh yeah. Right. I noticed that I didn't want to say anything. Cause he was afraid of me probably. But when I started noticing it and started bringing it up and I was like, oh, okay.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1h 3m 15s):
He's like, but I just kind of just stood here, stay here. And you know what, with the flow, because he didn't want to rock the boat, but he also didn't want to, he didn't say anything. So again, I was thinking it was all him. So it's so beautiful to see how, you know, having that realization and releasing all of that thinking. And it's opened up so many aspects, like the talking about things more and not like hashing things out or figure things out, but just like having an open dialogue and having that back and forth conversation where we can really, you know, share what we're thinking or feeling about, you know, an action or a situation and not taking it personally, but just, you know, saying, Hey, here's, what's going on in my little reality and here's, what's going on years and where are those?

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1h 4m 4s):
Maybe not line up or do line number or whatever. And that's great. It's, it's so freeing. It's so nice to know that like my life partner has that potential of being for my whole life. Whereas 10 years ago, I was like, oh, what about this? Is it going to land? So

Rohini Ross (1h 4m 43s):
The cultural norm is that we have this honeymoon period in a relationship that ends, and then you just kind of live with whatever's left after that, and maybe end the relationship and go onto a new one. And what the rewilding really is about is about awakening to how relationships can stay in that a liveliness. And that doesn't mean there's not going to be variation and fluctuation over the years, of course, but that reawakening, like you're talking about of that electricity and that just, oh, I just love you so much. And oh, you're just so gorgeous, whatever that is. It's, it's all that we experience at the beginning of a love relationship is always there.

Rohini Ross (1h 5m 26s):
But what gets comes in, as you're saying is that we get caught up in these narratives and conditioning and all of these layers of judgment come in that have us not experience what's really available to us. And as we free ourselves up from that, as we connect more deeply with who we are and get present rather than live in our conditioning, it opens up this presence with ourselves and also presence with our partner so that we can connect again in the way that we connected during that early time. And why was it like that in the honeymoon stage? Because we didn't have anything on our mind and we were just so present in the moment.

Rohini Ross (1h 6m 6s):
That's why it was so amazing. So that can happen at any point, whether, you know, I think Angus and I are married think is 27 years this summer. And I absolutely feel that the relationship keeps getting better and deeper and richer. And that there's just so much that I'm looking forward to in that discovery, because in a sense it's, each day is a new day. It's like each there who knows what's going to unfold and what's going to show up when we're living in the present in that way. And I hear you doing that the same with your, with your husband, which I think is really beautiful.

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1h 6m 48s):
Yeah. And it's really great that, you know, we're all showing up doing the best we can every single day and growing to be able to grow together and to not have, you know, stories getting in our way of, of that growth and that progress. And just being able to be curious and, and love is, is such a blessing and a gift.

Rohini Ross (1h 7m 11s):
Yeah, it is. Jen. I'm noticing the time I know we've gone a little over, so thank you so much for being so generous with it. Been

Jennifer Miller-Allgeier (1h 7m 19s):
A real pleasure to speak with you and spend time together. Thank you so much.

Rohini Ross (1h 7m 23s):
Yeah. Thank you. And thanks so much for sending over those additional resources for our listeners. Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross (1h 7m 44s):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross (1h 7m 49s):
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org.

Angus Ross (1h 7m 57s):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.