Claire Shutes talks with us about what she has learned living with cerebral palsy (CP). Claire was born with CP, a muscular disorder that stems from a lack of oxygen to the brain at birth. She considers herself lucky that only her walking is impacted. Others with the disorder can face further complications. Navigating CP has by no means been easy, but early on Claire came to view her physical limitation as a wonderful gift that's here to teach her life lessons.
Claire shares with us some of the struggles she faced while dating in the past. She found herself seemingly locked into a pattern of cultivating codependent relationships. After experiencing a severe bout of depression, Claire reflected on her role in these relationships and realized she no longer needed to play that part. Shortly after her insight, she met her soulmate and husband, Tom.
Claire views her work with her clients as a spiritual practice. She brings this universal truth of our interconnectedness into all of the work she does. She is also the co-founder of The Almond Tree Foundation that supports families living with illness or disability.
This episode explores:
Show Notes
Almond Tree Foundation: Claire's non-profit providing wellbeing support for families living with disability or illness. Click the link to access the free webinar series Claire mentioned in the episode.
Claire Shutes is a Master Transformative Coach and Three Principles Practitioner. She founded Potent Coaching in 2006 and has an international client base including businesses, individuals, and the charitable sector. Claire speaks and trains internationally, having served as faculty on Michael Neill’s Supercoach Academy and One Thought’s Foundations for Practitioners Program. She recently founded The Almond Tree Foundation to support the wellbeing of families living with illness and disability. Prior to becoming a coach Claire produced and directed observational documentaries for the BBC and CH4.
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.
Episode 37 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.
See full show notes here.
Claire Shutes talks with us about what she has learned living with cerebral palsy (CP). Claire was born with CP, a muscular disorder that stems from a lack of oxygen to the brain at birth. She considers herself lucky that only her walking is impacted. Others with the disorder can face further complications. Navigating CP has by no means been easy, but early on Claire came to view her physical limitation as a wonderful gift that's here to teach her life lessons.
Claire shares with us some of the struggles she faced while dating in the past. She found herself seemingly locked into a pattern of cultivating codependent relationships. After experiencing a severe bout of depression, Claire reflected on her role in these relationships and realized she no longer needed to play that part. Shortly after her insight, she met her soulmate and husband, Tom.
Claire views her work with her clients as a spiritual practice. She brings this universal truth of our interconnectedness into all of the work she does. She is also the co-founder of The Almond Tree Foundation that supports families living with illness or disability.
This episode explores:
Show Notes
Almond Tree Foundation: Claire's non-profit providing wellbeing support for families living with disability or illness. Click the link to access the free webinar series Claire mentioned in the episode.
Claire Shutes is a Master Transformative Coach and Three Principles Practitioner. She founded Potent Coaching in 2006 and has an international client base including businesses, individuals, and the charitable sector. Claire speaks and trains internationally, having served as faculty on Michael Neill’s Supercoach Academy and One Thought’s Foundations for Practitioners Program. She recently founded The Almond Tree Foundation to support the wellbeing of families living with illness and disability. Prior to becoming a coach Claire produced and directed observational documentaries for the BBC and CH4.
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.
Episode 37 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.
See full show notes here.
Angus Ross (4s):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross (11s):
This is episode number 37, an interview with Claire Shutes.
Claire Shutes (17s):
I was born with something called cerebral palsy. The doctor suggested that my mom just put me in a home and have another child
Rohini Ross (24s):
Suffering, struggle, fatigue, discouragement, isolation, loneliness, isolation, exactly. All of that.
Claire Shutes (33s):
It's impossible for me to walk into an environment and not be noticed.
Angus Ross (37s):
I lived 12 years of my life thinking that I had M.S. I was diagnosed with M.S. in London and I lived with that understanding for 12 years and kind of fought it every step of the way,
Claire Shutes (47s):
But I don't feel like I'm a victim to my disability. I never feel like I'm a victim to my circumstances
Rohini Ross (52s):
It's beautiful to see that whatever life circumstances we're in, really, it always conspires to wake us up more to who we are.
Claire Shutes (60s):
I think that for my daughter, having a disabled parent has given her much more than it's taken.
Rohini Ross (1m 6s):
You don't have to be a certain age to have insight. Wisdom is there for us all along, no matter what age we are, it's not
Angus Ross (1m 13s):
A physical disability, an internal disability that I've created through the illusion of thought.
Claire Shutes (1m 19s):
I really do know that whatever happens to me in my life, good or bad, I will find a way through
Angus Ross (1m 28s):
You are listening to rewilding love with me, Angus Ross
Rohini Ross (1m 32s):
and me Rohini Ross.
Angus Ross (1m 35s):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross (1m 38s):
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded
Angus Ross (1m 45s):
Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work
Rohini Ross (1m 52s):
And how it has helped them in their relationships,
Angus Ross (1m 55s):
Relax and enjoy the show.
Rohini Ross (2m 8s):
Before we get into this episode with Claire Shutes, I wanted to remind people, but my free rewilding, feminine pleasure courses now open for enrollment. And if you'd like to learn more about it, you can go to the real welders.org and look under programs. The program begins on July 30th and it is a 10 day series of live webinars. Where are we going to be discussing various themes and topics related to healing and awakening through pleasure?
Angus Ross (2m 36s):
Wow, well, it sounds very intriguing and I wish I could be a participant. I'm pretty sure that it's strictly ladies only
Rohini Ross (2m 47s):
Well it's for all women and feminine individuals, including transgender and cisgender women, as well as feminine and femme identifying non binary people.
Angus Ross (2m 57s):
I guess that doesn't include me there. So I love this interview with Claire shoots. There's so much about it that I found meaningful and I feel pretty positive that you're going to find some meaning in it to its listeners. Anyway, Claire is a, is a master transformative coach and three principal practitioner. She, she founded potent coaching. I think it was in 2006 and has an international client base, including businesses, individuals, and the charitable sector check Shaw check shush sector.
Angus Ross (3m 42s):
Claire speaks and trains internationally. Having served as a, as a faculty on Michael Neil SuperCoach academy. One thoughts foundation for practitioners, program foundations for practitioners, program foundation, foundations, foundations.
Rohini Ross (3m 60s):
Are you losing your mind? I am losing
Angus Ross (4m 3s):
My mind. I think I lost my mind long ago.
Rohini Ross (4m 6s):
Okay. I think, I think you're done
Angus Ross (4m 9s):
It's time for you to start. Not even while I'm ahead. Well, I met Claire. This is an intervention
Rohini Ross (4m 18s):
That's right. I'm jumping in. I met Claire they're on Michael Neil's SuperCoach academy because I didn't realize that I could work as a coach, even though I had my therapy license. I thought that I needed to do extra training because I wanted to do coaching. And so I didn't know really that that wasn't necessary at that time, but I'm really glad that I did do super coach academy. It was a wonderful experience. I got to meet Claire and that's how I really came across this understanding of the principles and met George and Linda Pransky. So that's a kind of very fortuitous for our, our rewilding metaphor.
Angus Ross (4m 59s):
Wow. That really wasn't the early days she was there right at the beginning. She was,
Rohini Ross (5m 3s):
Yeah. Then I was immediately drawn to Claire. She has a beautiful feeling, lovely energy and just felt a very natural connection with her. So we've you and I have taught programs with her in the UK. We've been friends for a long time, so it's wonderful to have her on this episode.
Angus Ross (5m 24s):
Yeah. I feel like the first ever really proper grownup program that I ever did was with Claire shoots in London. And I think I used that as a measure, measuring stick as to whether I'm going to be able to do this work for a living. I got to see I'm going to see how this goes. If this goes well, I will continue. If not, I she'll beat a hasty retreat and find something else to do in my life. Fortunately, it went pretty well as, as I recall, but I do remember that that for me was, was quite a defining moment. That was the line in the sand. There was a line in the sand,
Rohini Ross (5m 59s):
Very extremist of you.
Angus Ross (6m 1s):
No, I am. I'm inclined to fairly extreme extreme behaviors.
Rohini Ross (6m 6s):
Encourage our listeners to be that extremist and making life decisions based on one event.
Angus Ross (6m 13s):
Well, I dunno, I think it was building up to that point.
Rohini Ross (6m 17s):
Well, back to Claire, in addition to her coaching work, she's also the co-founder of the almond tree foundation. And that foundation helps families with members who are dealing with illness or disabilities, and they have a wonderful webinar series that we've got the links to, or the link to in our show notes.
Angus Ross (6m 36s):
She is a woman of many hats, quite like your good self. So what I really loved about this episode with Claire was the way that she was talking about her physical limitations in a way where perhaps the rest of the world might think of that as a disability, that was fairly significant. She has now reframed that physical limitation as something that has been a gift to her that has allowed her to grow and evolve in consciousness. And I remember at the time as she was talking, I was reminded of that platitude, that life gives you lemons.
Angus Ross (7m 19s):
So how are you going to make lemonade or, or words to that effect? I can't exactly remember how it goes, but I was thinking that, yeah, you could think of a situation like this and think, well, life has given you lemons, but the, the intelligence behind life is always looking for a way to make lemonade. So I thought that was so inspiring in the way that she had seen her disability through that lens. It was a gift that really was allowing her to grow and evolve in consciousness. And it seemed from what she has said, that that was having a spilled down effect on the people in her life that they were also benefiting from it. So I thought that was just such a beautiful thing. So inspiring.
Rohini Ross (7m 58s):
Yeah. I agree that it was incredibly inspiring to hear how she relates to her circumstances and how she's really clear that that is not who she is. And it is an experience that she has in life, but she'll use that experience for her upliftment and learning and growth in the way that you're putting it, which I think is inspiring for all of us. And Claire was very clear in saying that we're really all up against thought and that's something that's universal and we can all get gripped by the limitations in our thinking. And I think what she's seen and lived for herself is how that works so that she is less gripped by that.
Rohini Ross (8m 42s):
And that that's far more painful than what she's navigating on a physical level.
Angus Ross (8m 50s):
Yeah, no, I think it's a, it's a fantastic conversation. So I think we should hear about there's many habits. One of the things I want to say, oh, excuse me.
Rohini Ross (8m 59s):
Well, the other thing I wanted to say that came through very clear in what she was talking about is how there can be an assumption for people who aren't struggling with a specific disability to think that the person with that needs to be fixed or it needs to be changed. And I was really touched by how clear Claire was about that, as well as that she doesn't hope or want for anything to be different on the physical level. And that she's really at peace with what is, and I feel like that's a very strong foundation to live from.
Angus Ross (9m 35s):
Imagine all of this makes her an exceptional coach. All right, well, let's turn it over to Claire now. Okay.
Rohini Ross (9m 53s):
Thank you for being with us. And we really appreciate you sharing your experience. And I think it's going to be a wonderful conversation for our listeners and really educational on so many levels. And we've already sort of checked in about this, but we thought it would be helpful for people to hear about your journey, living with a disability, how that's impacted your life and also how that has impacted your relationships and what you've learned from that, what you see as the learning opportunities and, and just take it from there. How does that sound?
Claire Shutes (10m 30s):
That sounds wonderful.
Rohini Ross (10m 32s):
So could we start with just sharing a little bit of background information about yourself related to that?
Claire Shutes (10m 42s):
Yeah, so I was born with something called cyber palsy, basically it's lack of oxygen at birth and it affects the way I walk. I'm very lucky because it only affects my walking. Some people with cerebral palsy, it can be a lot more, can have a lot more impact.
Rohini Ross (11m 1s):
How was it growing up as a child? And how did that impact your experience of childhood?
Claire Shutes (11m 7s):
When I was born and they discovered that I had a disability, the doctor suggested that my mom just put me in a home and have another child, because that was very much thinking at, at that time. Luckily my mother decided not to go that route and she brought me up as if I was like everyone else. I went to school when I was at my first school. I was the only child with a disability. I had a little red tricycle that I used to ride around the playground and it had little kind of step on the back and kids used to ride on it or use it even for rides around the, around the playground.
Claire Shutes (11m 51s):
That was the kind of, that was the kind of upside of it. But there was a lot of time when I was also ostracized and treated as if I was very, very different. So it, it was difficult at school. And I would say was the most difficult environment. But then at home I was just like everyone else I really was. And I didn't really realize the impact of my disability. I don't think until I was about 11. I knew that I was different and I'd had the, kind of the experience at school, but it was only when I first started to take public transport for myself.
Claire Shutes (12m 31s):
I realized that actually everyone it's impossible for me to walk into an environment and not be noticed. People look in and, and it's very kind of, I think it's a very normal part of the human instinct, but when I was 11, I was really surprised. I think by that, I just wasn't expecting it because I'd been very closeted as a child. And there was definitely a time when, at that point in my life, when I really thought that I didn't have the strength to deal with it, I couldn't see how I was going to be able to live my life with that as, as part of it.
Claire Shutes (13m 16s):
And it was a very, very difficult time. And I think my mother was incredibly resilient being, I ha I have a 20 year old daughter now. And as a parent, I can only imagine it must have been a very difficult time for her to have a child just in such a very difficult place. But then, and I've told this story many times before, so please forgive me if people have heard it before. But then one day when I was sitting at home feeling again, quite sorry for myself, I'm wondering how I was going to navigate the world. I suddenly had a different thought, like it suddenly occurred to me that I had two choices that I could basically sit in the corner and feel sorry for myself and be a victim the whole of my life, or I could try and get on with my life and navigate my life the best I could given my physical limitations and because of who I am as a person, because my personality, the first option didn't look very appealing.
Claire Shutes (14m 17s):
And so I just decided to do the best I could. And that doesn't mean that it's been always been straightforward since then. But now that I, now that in my work, I share the principles or the understanding behind the principles, I can see that that was an insight that was fresh thought. And, and I just, now I'm just very grateful that that is how the mind works. And I think it would be true to say that I've achieved many that were not expected of me in my life.
Claire Shutes (14m 57s):
And I see my disability as my biggest tool for spiritual growth, essentially it has when I was about 16 or so, I started looking kind of, I started a quest for kind of looking more deeply into the nature of life, the spiritual nature of life, essentially. So what, what, what was behind the facade that people see to look deeper? And in fact, I've been lucky enough to travel the world in that quest. And I've met many, many different healers from many different traditions.
Claire Shutes (15m 37s):
I know that you know about this weekend. Sure. We spoken about it before, but I, I, you know, I, I'm a magnet for healers. They like to have a go. And I, I, and I'm also very open, very, very open. Like I've had some incredible experiences. I was in Kuala Lumpur and had a chicken master used me as a Guinea pig in front of all his students. And I learned amazing things about what was possible with energy from him. I've had faith healing, hands on healing, Reiki. I didn't know many, many different things, but essentially I always did those things out of a sense of curiosity, but never because I wanted to be healed.
Claire Shutes (16m 32s):
I feel that my physicality is, is perfect the way it is, and I don't have any kind of desire for it to be different. And I know that's, that could be difficult for people to hear, especially with people who are suffering or in pain or anything like that. And, and I don't mean any disrespect to people who are, it's just that I, I really believe actually that I chose this as a life lesson and, and it, it is a wonderful gift.
Rohini Ross (17m 25s):
That's really inspiring and really touching to hear how you're seeing the health in all of it and open to what you're able to see as a result of this being the circumstance in your life and what gifts are available in that.
Angus Ross (17m 47s):
And I feel like I, I really, perhaps not to the same level of magnitude about what you went through. And I think that I have maybe shared this before. I don't know if I have shared it on this forum that I lived 12 years of my life thinking that I had Ms. I was diagnosed with Ms in London. And I lived with that understanding for 12 years and kind of fought it every step of the way. It was something that I was really adamant. I don't want this in my life. How do I get rid of it? And it was one of those things you can't get rid of it, it's kind of like a, it's like a sentence that you have to live with. It's a life sentence, as far as it was being portrayed to me by the medical establishment.
Angus Ross (18m 32s):
And, you know, and eventually they did find out that it was a misdiagnosis and it was mercury poisoning, but there was a point in that 12th year where I really got to a place where I was able to surrender to it. And it was around me having an insight that this was from my spiritual growth. And what was, it was for me to have an opportunity. I don't know how I would have probably articulated this for myself at this, at that moment. But now looking back, I realized that it was for my growth and upliftment. It was a spiritual thing that I've been in a sense. I felt like this, this disease was a gift for me to grow and evolve spiritually.
Angus Ross (19m 13s):
And when I fully embraced that, I was perfectly okay with the fact that I had this disease. And it was the first time in 12 years where I really was able to surrender to that. It all made sense. And, you know, and I was lucky enough to learn that it was a misdiagnosis. It was something altogether different that was altogether treatable. But I didn't know that at that point, but when I had that point of surrender, it was so clear to me that this was kind of a gift. So in, in, in, in terms of, you know, what it meant for me, I feel like I understand what you're saying. I think that's a really beautiful thing.
Claire Shutes (19m 49s):
Yeah. That's exactly what I was saying. Exactly what I'm saying.
Rohini Ross (19m 54s):
I'm curious. How old were you when you had that insight about the two different ways of approaching life, right. So you were really young when you had that fresh thinking come in. And I think that's really wonderful to see how insight we don't have to be a certain age to have insight. Wisdom is there for us all along, no matter what age we are and, and speaks to us and that in the work that we all do, the practitioning, you know, we're all practitioners in the same understanding that that's really what we're asking people to listen to, is that space inside of them that knows.
Rohini Ross (20m 35s):
And that the noise of our insecure thinking can be really loud and it can really dominate, dislike you Angus with all of that thinking over the years about how you were fighting, basically just fighting it. But at some point there's that opening and we get to hear something deeper and that could be a better health. It could be better relationship. It could be bad, anything, but to know that that's available to us, I think is very hopeful and it points people in the direction of their own health and wellbeing, no matter what their circumstances are, whether it's on a physical health journey or other circumstances in life that that is never taken away from us. And I think that's really a life-changing to realize that
Angus Ross (21m 21s):
I was also thinking that it's kind of like, it's not that with our exposure to this understanding, we suddenly all of all the, all of a sudden developed insight machinery, it's kind of like those insights that, that was always working. And it's kind of fun now to go back and look at those moments in our past where obviously the principles were an action and in full play and playing out now it's kind of like, yeah, you know, that's so obvious,
Claire Shutes (21m 52s):
Send me a beautiful points you guys have made just then I love working in this way with people, because essentially we're just pointing people back to what's already happening. So with the like hundreds of people I work with now, I don't think anyone's ever said to me, you're talking rubbish because essentially, as you know, we're just pointing to what is already in play. And that's so beautiful. And another point that that Rahini made or in what she was saying, part of what she's saying is the kind of acceptance part. I think that that's really profound, a really profound thing. Like I, I really accept who I am.
Claire Shutes (22m 34s):
I really accept. There are times when I I'm frustrated by not being able to do stuff because like the things I can't do, but it's, I don't, you know, my, my disability is not the totality of my being. It's only a small, small part of who I am in my wealth. And in fact, I'm not even aware of it until I move. So like, like here sitting chatting to you guys, obviously we're talking about it, but, but normally, so I'm aware of it, but normally I'm, I'm not aware of it. And I'm, I'm, it has allowed me to, like, I think I see other people like I with, for other people as well, I look deeper into what's happening with them and what's going on for them.
Claire Shutes (23m 30s):
And I feel love and compassion and kinship and understanding. I mean, essentially, as far as I can see, we're all up against the same. So, you know, with me, my disability is very obvious, but everybody has something that they think is not right about themselves in some way. And, you know, you see there, there are some people who don't, but, but let's say the majority of people are struggling with something, something that they, that they kind of think, well, I'm, you know, people might like me, but they wouldn't like me if they knew X or Y or was that.
Claire Shutes (24m 11s):
And I think that kind of comes onto the relationship piece in a way too. But for me, my, my difference is very obvious. And so I can't hide. I can't hide it. There's no facade there's no, I just am who I am. And what's been, what's really interesting for me is that my husband I'm married, I've been married for almost 19 years, says that, you know, I, I live in this kind of seems weird, but I kind of live in this kind of enchanted world in the way, because most people are really nice to me like this. Like my disability seems to bring out the best in people.
Claire Shutes (24m 53s):
There are the, there are occasional people who, who react differently, but for the majority of the time, there's something where, where, yeah, this just, it, it, it, it definitely, it brings out the best. Hmm.
Rohini Ross (25m 10s):
That's beautiful to have that heart opening effect where it brings out that kindness. It sounds like a lot at the time.
Claire Shutes (25m 19s):
Yeah. People are really, really kind, you know, they offer to help me in all the time and stuff like that. And I've learned actually to, I'm very kind back. So like, if someone takes someone off is to help me across the road or to help carry something for me, or, you know, they, you know, I I'm, I even if I don't need the help, I'm always very respectful. And I always thank them. And, you know, if, if young children look at me and, or their parents, you know, they pointed me in that the parents like embarrassed to go, you know, I always smile back and smile at the child and smile because I, because I think it's very natural to, to want to help.
Claire Shutes (25m 59s):
And also to be curious. And so I'm, I'm really respectful of the kind of impetus behind that. <inaudible>
Rohini Ross (26m 9s):
Yeah, yeah. That, that innocence and children, when they see something different, it's, it's not coming from a cruel place, but it can be taken personally by people when that happens with, I remember being in a grocery store with our youngest and she was quite young and there was a little person in the store and she pointed because she hadn't seen a little person before. And, and I can't remember what I said to her, but I, I just try to explain it and try to explain not to point because that can be difficult, but the person was very offended and came over quite harshly to her and, and spoke to her.
Rohini Ross (26m 56s):
Didn't speak to me and actually spoke to her about it. And I can understand that they took it personally, we're trying to do their best, but it was hard because it was coming, I think, from a very innocent place
Claire Shutes (27m 7s):
With them. Absolutely. Exactly, exactly. And I, and I want to make, I would like people, children to have a positive, like I could, I, I can provide a positive role in disability in difference for them.
Rohini Ross (27m 23s):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm really human to human. As you were saying, seeing beyond the disability is just a small ex it's part of life, or, I mean, it can feel large, I'm sure at times in certain circumstances, but in terms of who you are, it's, it is actually a superficial part who you are is far deeper, greater. That's the intangible part that has nothing to do with the disability.
Claire Shutes (27m 52s):
And I very much see it as this, this lifetime. It's my, at the moment,
Angus Ross (28m 13s):
I feel like on so many levels, you must be so perfectly equipped to help people because in dealing with a physical disability, and then I guess through insight, I'm sure through insight, you find a way to be perfectly comfortable in your own skin and you kind of see it as a gift. And then I think about, and I certainly can see this in myself about all the people that have disability around thought. And I feel like certainly if I look at it through my experience growing up, and when I say growing up, so middle age from zero to middle age is kind of like, I think that I have been dealing with the, sort of the disability of thoughts in imagining that I don't measure up to the pit, to the person next to me that I'm somehow different and I'm not good enough.
Angus Ross (29m 9s):
And so to be able to sort of have a physical manifestation of it looks like a disability and then being able to be, yeah, you know what? This is my journey in life. This is actually a gift. This is something that ultimately ultimately will help me grow and learn in a way that is positive then to sort of go and do this work, the work that we do, that you help people who are basically dealing with disability, if the disability of Ford. And I certainly see that in a different way now, even in having this conversation, now, I, I conjured up all these ideas of disability in the way that I was not as able as the next person. And that's something that was not so obvious.
Angus Ross (29m 50s):
It's not a physical disability and internal disability that I've created through the illusion of thought,
Claire Shutes (29m 57s):
Let's say it's an internal limitation. You're creating through the power of thought.
Angus Ross (30m 2s):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and that was something that was very evident for me.
Rohini Ross (30m 7s):
Well, it's, it's interesting how you're speaking to this. Cause what I, a note that I made for myself in something you said, Claire, was that we're all up against the same thing. And that's what Angus is speaking to. But on the surface, it doesn't look like we're all up against the same thing. It looks like you're up against something different than I'm up against because your body functions differently than my body functions. So I'd love for you to share more about what you mean by that statement of how we're all up against the same thing.
Claire Shutes (30m 38s):
Sure. Well, what I mean is that the way in which I navigate my limitation, my disability, my cerebral palsy, whatever name you, I mean, sort of label right. Is dependent. Depends on how I'm thinking about it. That's what it comes down to. So I think of it as a gift. So thinking of it as a gift, it's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. So that something can't be a gift and be a big deal in my mind anyway. But if I felt that I had been cussed or that it was unfair or that it was, I didn't know if I had a lot of negative thinking about it, I would feel very, very differently about it.
Claire Shutes (31m 18s):
I would experience it very, very differently and I'd probably be physically different as well. So it's all thought it's all thought everything is thought.
Rohini Ross (31m 32s):
And I just want to let that sink in because that's such a vast statement that even for myself, as, as much as I know that rings true inside of me, I know that I don't always see that. I don't always see the truth of that statement. That really everything I experience is a reflection of what I'm identifying with in consciousness. And that, that is all I'm ever up against in terms of my internal suffering. And you're saying that you see that too, and that your experience is defined in the same way that my experience is defined in the same way the Angus has experienced as a defined that that is universal.
Claire Shutes (32m 16s):
Absolutely universal. And I have my disability and I'm also up against all the kind of insecure thinking about life. Generally, other people are up against cheeks, you know, so I've had all sorts of wonderful and difficult and challenging experiences in my life. I've been through this. There's almost not a person I can sit in front of in terms of, in terms of a client who I haven't shed kind of level of their experience because of the vastness of the different things I've been treated. And all of that has been, you know, part, part partly made me who I am. You know, my disability I said is a very, it's a small bet. I'm sure when people, I mean, people often look at me and I can see that they're looking at me with pity and they're thinking, God, thank God.
Claire Shutes (33m 3s):
That's not me. Or, or how would I cope? Or I don't know if I could do that. But, but the biggest, one of the biggest things that my CP has also put me in touch with is my resiliency. So like I have this on shakeable sense of resilience. And what I mean by that is that I really do know that whatever happens to me in my life, good or bad, right? Because life there is, right. I will find a way through, I have absolute faith that I will find a way through. I might not know at this particular moment how I'll find a way through you because I didn't know what the scenario will be, but I will find a way through, I will find a way.
Angus Ross (33m 47s):
And what, and where does the confidence of that come from? I guess out of curiosity, I mean, I kind of know your spin on that.
Claire Shutes (33m 56s):
It's not confidence. It's way beyond confidence. It's knowing it's just true.
Rohini Ross (34m 5s):
Yeah. That's the difference between an intellectual idea and an experiential knowing or insight that we just have that quality of knowing that we just know, and we can't really know how we know in a sense.
Angus Ross (34m 24s):
Yeah, yeah, no, I I'm always looking for ways. Well, not that I'm looking for words. I, I want to hear how people would articulate that because it's something that's so impossible to articulate because it is a feeling it's a feeling of truth. It's a feeling of knowing. And I just, you know, I, I'm curious about how people would, would talk about that. Always.
Claire Shutes (34m 49s):
It's a very, I have a very strong sense that it is something that I know to be true and that can be relied on. And it's something, how did I come to that? Just through life experience?
Angus Ross (35m 6s):
Yeah. I had an interesting conversation once with an atheist who had, who had really enjoyed what I had to share about this understanding. And then it's spoken someone else, I guess, who was a teacher of this understanding. And they had asked him, you know, where do you fall on the spiritual spectrum? Do you believe in God? And he said, no, I don't believe in God, I'm an atheist. And she said, well, that's a problem. And then when he came back to me, he was kind of frustrated and wanted to know what, you know, how, how I would talk to him about that. And I said, well, that's just, you know, substitute the word God with truth. And then he immediately put his hand on his heart.
Angus Ross (35m 47s):
He said, yes, I could understand that. I can get my head around that. Which to me was a bit of a tail anyway, because by virtue of the fact that he put his hand on his heart, but that was good enough for him, that, that lined up with truth. It was for me, that's a, that could be construed as a spiritual understanding, but that's his way of articulating that feels like truth. That's kind of his spirituality is, is, is his understanding of what truth means to him.
Claire Shutes (36m 16s):
Yeah. I'm not, I'm not a religious person. I don't adhere to any particular doctrine or religious tradition, but I would do, I would describe myself as a spirit to a person. And, and I love the way you described that Angus, because I just, I have a sense of there being things that are fundamentally true about existence and about life. And I, and I see very well, it seems clear to me that we're all connected energetically. I know that if it doesn't happen that much anymore because of COVID, but when people used to come and sit with me in a room and have like a conversation for an hour, let's say they came in and they were in an agitated state for some reason or other w and I, I wasn't, I was in a place of calm and neutrality over the, over the course of an hour.
Claire Shutes (37m 21s):
I, it seemed to me that we were like tuning forks one another. And because I never moved because I understood that the person sitting with me would eventually come to peace and calm. And I've witnessed that so many times that I'm, I'm sure that's how it, how it works, but that's a very, very beautiful thing. If we're, if we can all, if we're all interconnected and can be tuning forks for one another
Rohini Ross (37m 48s):
<inaudible> yeah. And we can help each other through that connection. And we're really designed to be in community and to be in connection. And I I've experienced that too. And there's even research now that demonstrates how that works in terms of our nervous system and how we respond and how we take cues from each other. So I think that that's such a beautiful gift of how we can support each other and get to do that in the work that we do, which is powerful.
Rohini Ross (38m 33s):
You mentioned how you, at times can see some people look at you, you know, seeing you through the eyes of pity or concern. And I'm curious in terms of your relationship with Tom and your marriage, how, how was that to navigate with him? Was it a challenge? I'm just curious how that played out for you.
Claire Shutes (38m 57s):
So if you don't mind, I'd like to step back a bit from that and talk about relationships generally, is that okay with you? I've always had relationships with able-bodied men. And I think I had my first boyfriend when I was like, I think I was like 16 or something. There was a time in my life. Not, not in the very beginning, but later on when I definitely thought of myself as the garage.
Angus Ross (39m 27s):
And what does that mean?
Claire Shutes (39m 29s):
What I mean by that is that, so from, from the age of 17, I started on a spiritual quest and I learned quite a lot about psychology and the way people work through that. And then what I used to do is because I didn't really believe that somebody would want to be in a relationship with me because I didn't feel like I had much to offer on that level. I became very, very good at being in relationship with people who needed help and they would, I would spend some time with them. They would feel a lot better and I, and then, and then they would move on.
Claire Shutes (40m 12s):
And I didn't really, I didn't, if you'd asked me at that point in time, I totally would've said rubbish. That's absolutely not what's happening. But now with hindsight, I can definitely see that. And there was a point at which I got into a relationship with them. It was a very codependent, it was a very unhealthy codependent relationship. And at the end of that, I was not in a very good state emotionally because of it. And this was many, many, many years ago. This is probably around 27 years ago, like long, long time ago.
Claire Shutes (40m 53s):
And, and at that point, I, after that, it was at a very, very low AB and I had a, an episode of severe depression and for which I chose to spend some time in a hospital. And while I was, that was very interesting because I was in such a very low place that when I went in, it felt like the reason I made that choice is because I didn't know how to get better, to get myself better. And no one around me, my family didn't know what to do.
Claire Shutes (41m 33s):
And it was a very scary time for both them and me. And so I went into what I thought was going to be a refuge. And I remember it felt like in the beginning it felt like a place of safety. And then as I got better, I remember that everything that I had learned, cause I knew a lot. I knew a lot from all the traveling I'd done before and all the things I'd seen, but I had just got to the mental space where all of that wasn't accessible to me. And as I got stronger, I began to reflect and reassess and I saw what had happened in that relationship and the part that I had played in that, and I saw that I didn't need to do that anymore.
Claire Shutes (42m 25s):
And I saw that I had something to offer on equal terms. And I, shortly after that, I met Tom, my husband and we have a really, I mean, I'm very so blessed. I mean, you, you you've both met him and he's a really, really incredible human being and we have a very equal relationship. It, it bears no resemblance to the relationships I used to have before. And I think if I had met Tom before, before I had some fresh thinking about myself in that arena, I don't think I would have been able to be in relationship with him.
Claire Shutes (43m 13s):
I just don't think it would have even occurred to me to be in relationship with him. And I asked him before coming to chat to you guys today, if you minded, if what I said or why I didn't say about relationship, and he said, you can say whatever you feel comfortable saying. So that's cool, but I don't think anybody sets out thinking I'm going to marry a disabled person. You know? And, and when we met, it was it's more than more than 20 years ago. Now there was a very, very strong connection instantaneously.
Claire Shutes (44m 0s):
The first time, it's really odd. The first time I looked at him, I thought that I would marry him. And then I kind of discounted it as a ridiculous thought, but, and we are soulmates and really good friends. And he doesn't see, he doesn't see my disability as being the totality of my being. He sees my essential nature. And obviously, you know, we, we have, as I mentioned, we have a daughter who's now 20. And in the process of bringing up a child together, there were many, many concessions that were made.
Claire Shutes (44m 43s):
There was a whole period of time when I, when she started crawling. And as soon as she started crawling, she was faster than me. And from that point, until she learned how to stop at a car at a, for, at a road for cars, it was dangerous for me to look off to her. So Tom looked after her, we made that decision. And I think that actually gave was, was an amazing gift for him. And they, I was making TV programs. I carried on doing that during that period of time. And I think that they're very close and that was an amazing gift for which he's very grateful.
Claire Shutes (45m 24s):
So, you know, and they, they both make concessions for me all the time, you know, and we make, but it's kind of, it's very much, it doesn't as I didn't have to put this it's very much like anyone would have to make some concessions. I don't know. You guys might have concessions, you make one another in your relationship. You know, it's not mine
Rohini Ross (45m 50s):
For Angus all the time, but you know what I mean? It's not like a big deal.
Angus Ross (45m 55s):
He'll winning the concession rice. Obviously
Claire Shutes (46m 0s):
I would, I would think that would be accurate, but you know, like, so if, if, if they're going for a walk and they want to go for a walk, they'll go for a walk and then I'll meet them later. Or, you know, we find ways around and stuff. But I think that that for my daughter, having a disabled parent has given her much more than it's taken away, you know, in terms of her understanding of life and her compassion and her, you know what I mean? You'd have to ask her about that. I don't want to speak for her, but I'm sure that, you know, on balance.
Rohini Ross (46m 39s):
Yeah. It's beautiful to see that whatever life circumstances we're in, really, it all always conspires to wake us up more to who we are. There's always that opportunity to see who we are more deeply based on whatever shows up. And, and I think that that's what I hear in terms of your orientation to life is to really see it that way. And it's not so much about your disability, although that was part of what was instrumental. It sounds like in that insight that you had, but that you really see that all of life is there in service to waking up and as part of a spiritual journey and learning.
Claire Shutes (47m 25s):
Absolutely. That is how I see life. Absolutely. I think on a spiritual journey and we'll get the perfect lessons for whatever it is we need to learn.
Rohini Ross (47m 34s):
Yeah. Whether we like it or not, we don't have to like the lessons. Yeah. So I wanted to go back just because I think it was such an important point when you, you talked about when that relationship ended and you, you were in a depression and you had that time of reflection and that you said that you saw your part and, and contribution to that. And I'm wondering if you would just say a little bit more about what you saw around that, because it sounds like you went from feeling like a victim to not an a and I might be misreading that, but I'd just love to, to hear more about what you have to say.
Claire Shutes (48m 17s):
I don't think I felt like a victim. I don't have you see the, that's the thing I don't have victim mentality. Okay.
Rohini Ross (48m 24s):
Yeah. And that's why I want to clarify.
Claire Shutes (48m 26s):
Well, what I mean by that is that I don't see my disc. I don't feel like I'm a victim to my disability. I never feel like I'm a victim to my second stances. I'm always very curious to see what the, what the part is I've played. And if there's anything that I might do differently or anything that I'm, that I haven't seen that might change the experience in some way, for the better, like, you know, it's one of my, I really love the question. And I think it's, I think Deakin was the first person to say this question to me, but I really, really love this question. So if I'm in a place that I'm really stuck and I'm not sure where to go, or I know that I'm somehow yeah.
Claire Shutes (49m 9s):
Not in clarity, let's say the question, what more is there to see about this is a really, really helpful one for me because we, as human beings get so kind of easily seduced by our own constructs and forget that there are hung guns rights, as we all know, and then like live, you know, but that simple question is an opening up question for me. So I got curious. I was like, I knew that I knew it takes two to tango in a relationship as far as I'm concerned. Right. So I didn't want to repeat the same pattern. So that meant I needed to really get reflected and see the part that I was playing in that
Rohini Ross (50m 4s):
I think that's fair, very helpful for all of us to remember that because it's so easy to feel like a victim to someone in our life. And I'm no want to say that I'm condoning harmful behavior or hurtful behavior and want to always be clear that I'm not. But I do think it's very empowering the question that you're saying to be able to get reflective in that way and to see what more is there for me to see around this and look in that direction rather than looking in the direction of the other person, because we're not going to get those fresh thoughts about what we can see differently do differently.
Rohini Ross (50m 48s):
We're not necessarily going to see the constructs that we have so that we can recognize that they're constructs and then start to live beyond those constructs into something new. So I just think that's a really key point well said. And I think that's really such a beautiful description of how that shift occurred within you. And then you are able to be in this whole, whole other kind of relationship that is equal, where you're still having to navigate certain things on the physical level, in the, in terms of circumstances, but it doesn't take away the equality in your relationship and, and we're, and as you said, we're all making adjustments for the people in our lives, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it can still always be equal, even though we're making adjustments that are just part of being human and being in relationship with each other.
Claire Shutes (51m 43s):
Yeah, exactly.
Rohini Ross (51m 43s):
And so I know that you've been working as supporting others for quite some time and you and I met on a coach training program and I, I had a moment that you had with Tom where I saw you, and I just felt this immediate connection of love to you. Like I just loved your energy. There was just something about you that I really connected with. And then we got to know each other over that training. And I'm so grateful that we did that and that we're still in each other's lives. So thank you for that. But I know that you've also started a new project called the almond tree, and I'd really, I think it's such a wonderful resource for, for families. So I'd love for you to share about your new project and let people know what it's about.
Claire Shutes (52m 30s):
Sure. So thank you. And I, and I T remember the first time we met in Santa Monica in the Santa Monica Playhouse, and I too am really grateful for your friendship over the years. And it's been just really wonderful to see how you have what you've created in the world. I mean, you're amazing. Both of you are amazing. And I I'm so, so happy to know you both. So, so I just have to say that, but so, yeah, I'm th there is somebody who didn't phrase that, who I've been friends with for 10 years, we met didn't. I met on a different training and, and Julian has a daughter who's 19 with, with very severe cerebral palsy.
Claire Shutes (53m 17s):
And she requires what's called waking care. That means essentially that she needs, as long as she's awake, she needs help to, to do things. And he and I have had conversations over many years about using what we know to help parents of children with disabilities. And two months ago, we decided to do something about our conversations. And it's really wonderful because it seems to have had a kind of, I don't know, it seems to have a momentum of its own. It's basically now it's broadened already. So now it's just, it's, it's also encompasses families.
Claire Shutes (53m 58s):
It's basically for families living with either disability or illness in any way. And we wanted to share what we know so that people could see that there was a possibility of having a different experience. And we, it to be very hurtful. We want it to be a place of hope, regeneration, understanding, compassion. We are asked to like, you know, you know, me too, I've been, I too. I understand. And we, we know that it doesn't have Julian, and I know that it doesn't have to be painful.
Claire Shutes (54m 41s):
It doesn't have to be a struggle. It, that can be times when it's difficult, but overall, it can be a gift and it can bring people closer together. And it's an opportunity for growth and learning. It's an opportunity for empathy and for love and compassion. And so we, that's kind of our starting place. And then the very wonderful independence. He, I believe he you've had both George and Linda on talking about their relationship. Linda is also involved and because obviously her life changed dramatically when, or both of their lives changed dramatically when George had his stroke a couple of years ago.
Claire Shutes (55m 31s):
And so she really wants to share what she'd seen and what she'd learned. And so we've been kind of collaborating and kind of seeing what, what, what happens. We've kicked off with them, a series of webinars, which is still available. So if anybody is interested, Rahini and Angus can put the link, yes, you can, you can still sign up for them and they're free. And we've done three of them. We've had such amazing responses. Really. It seems that this conversation is really needed. And before, during, and I set up the foundation, we did quite a lot of research into what's available in terms of wellbeing, resources, and support.
Claire Shutes (56m 14s):
And there's very little specifically geared to that. So we're hoping that we can be a resource that, that impacts many.
Rohini Ross (56m 26s):
Yeah, I think that it's absolutely needed and there's so much suffering, struggle, fatigue, discouragement, and exactly all of that, that to have a free resource where people can receive support and receive education and how to tap into their inner resiliency and to their own capacity to resource themselves. Because so often with caregivers, they're giving, and they're not looking at how depleted they're getting and their state of mind gets impacted by that.
Rohini Ross (57m 8s):
And then it's like a downward spiral. And it, then what it looks like, what choice do I have? I have to be a caregiver. Therefore, this is just what it is and what you're pointing to is like, no, that, isn't just what it is. Yes, you are a caregiver, but there is support available. And there's a way to resource herself as well while going through that journey. And you're not in that journey alone, which I think is so beautiful.
Claire Shutes (57m 33s):
We got one piece of feedback from a lady that she wrote to us saying that her she's looking up to her husband who had Parkinson's and a form of dementia, and that had been deteriorating rapidly ever lockdown. And that after listening to our first podcast, she felt hurtful for the first time in many months. So that was just so wonderful. Really, really wonderful. Oh,
Rohini Ross (57m 59s):
That's great. And we'll absolutely put all of the information and links for people to contact you or find out more about the foundation. So really looking forward to sharing that with people,
Angus Ross (58m 10s):
This was such a beautiful conversation. Thank you so much, Claire, for your generosity.
Rohini Ross (58m 16s):
Yeah. I want to thank you, Claire, for, for the listeners who don't know, Claire was very kind. We had a cancellation and Claire was willing to jump in on fairly short notice and have this conversation with us. It had been on my list to speak with her about it. And our schedules had been such that we hadn't been connecting. We supposed to have spoken at least a month ago now, and we keep pushing it out. And so we had this meeting scheduled them like, oh, would you be willing to be on the podcast? And I was going to use that time to actually talk with you more about it, but so thank you for your willingness and just really appreciate what you've shared. I think it's something that I don't hear about this conversation very much.
Rohini Ross (59m 1s):
So that tells me how much it's needed when it's not really being had. And I think one of the things that's come forward, you know, during the pandemic with all of the different world events, particularly the events related to George Floyd and the importance of inclusion and diversity and equity, all of that becoming part of the conversation. I think representation is just really key to, to have people represented and to have different perspectives heard. And Angus and I are really seeing the health and the richness that comes forward in diversity. So I really want to support this being included and the richness of the conversations that we're having.
Rohini Ross (59m 45s):
So thank you. Thank you. It's been an honor. Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.
Angus Ross (1h 0m 6s):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.
Rohini Ross (1h 0m 11s):
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org.
Angus Ross (1h 0m 20s):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.