EP40 Angus Ross & Rohini Ross: Navigating Low Moods

Just back from vacation, we wanted to share how to more easily navigate low moods and how seeing them as transient and impersonal can make relationships so much easier and more graceful.

Angus has a perfect example of this from our vacation in Hawaii when he was feeling very caught up and upset with our daughters, he stepped outside, and by looking up at the night sky and seeing the moon, he was distracted just enough from his low mood that his mind settled naturally. Once his mind settled, he was able to re-approach the situation with more ease and grace.

Rohini shares about how it was through experiencing more of her own safety and well-being within herself that allowed her to get more perspective on her human psychology. Once she was freed up to see her psychology at work, she could lean into her built-in navigation system and ride out low moods instead of giving them more meaning than they warranted. 

When you get caught up, if you can attend to what you need to do to help regulate your own internal state, rather than searching for someone to blame, or a "fall guy" as Angus likes to say, you can then bypass escalation and return to connection more quickly. This doesn't mean you should always be in a good mood and that low moods are shameful, it means accepting where you're at in the moment, instead of blaming someone else for your current state of mind.

This episode explores:

• How to handle a low mood
• Watching the fight or flight experience
• Taking care of ourselves first helps relationships
• The power of seeing the impersonal in a low mood
• The character we play when we're caught up vs. when we're seeing things clearly

Show Notes
Slapping one's thighs and pinching one's leg: when Angus is caught up and frustrated he might do this
Pulling down pants: when Angus approaches the airport security line, he might instinctively start to do this
Alien creature: the sum of our conditioned thinking and habits

Angus Ross & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.

Episode 40 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.

Transcript

Angus Ross (3s):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross (10s):
This is episode number 40, Learning to Navigate Low Moods with Angus and Rohini.

Angus Ross (17s):
It comes down to a choice. Do I want to jump on board that train of thought and put words and actions in that, in that feeling

Rohini Ross (26s):
The way to have a great experience and a great relationship is not to try and eliminate the low mood because that just puts pressure on yourself.

Angus Ross (35s):
It's really interesting for me now, just to see how, when I do get settled, how quickly I can realize. Yeah. You know, I have a completely different opinion from that vantage point.

Rohini Ross (45s):
This circumstance was different. If this person were different than I would be happier. And we can't see in that moment that that's not really the source of our suffering

Angus Ross (54s):
We do in those moments of getting out of balance is we allow that piece of analytical equipment to do its job in the way that it always does his job, but it just sort of gathers together the material, which is completely a reflection of our state of mind.

Rohini Ross (1m 8s):
This is for that category of relationship like ours, where you have two people who are fairly sensitive and who can get caught up and having an understanding about low moves has really helped

Angus Ross (1m 21s):
Your intuition. Be your guide on this one, you are listening to rewild in love with me, Angus Ross

Rohini Ross (1m 28s):
And me Rahini Ruff.

Angus Ross (1m 30s):
Rewilding love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross (1m 34s):
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewelded

Angus Ross (1m 41s):
Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross (1m 53s):
Before we jump into this episode, I wanted to remind everyone that applications for the next rewilder guide practitioner training are due. And to learn more about the training, please go to our website therewilders.org. This training is for therapists, coaches, mental health professionals, anyone who wants to support others and work with them in the way that we work with the people that we work with. And we hope to have a very diverse and inclusive group of participants. And in order to support that tuition assistance is available. So if you're interested, please go to the website and learn more there. And you can also fill out the application form.

Rohini Ross (2m 32s):
This is our first episode after coming back from our break. And you think that Angus and I would be bright eyed and bushy tailed, but we're actually both struggling a little today. I only got three and a half hours of sleep last night for no apparent reason. Other than I can think that maybe I'm struggling with jet lag and you have a really sore back.

Angus Ross (2m 55s):
I do, but I know that my sore back came from me lifting a big chunk of concrete, which was not the smart thing to do, but the jet lag, I would be a little bit surprised about because it's been nearly two weeks now. Although I feel like I might have been suffering on that front too. I don't know, but what is the opposite of bright eyed and bushy tail? Cause I definitely don't feel like I'm bright-eyed and bushy tailed. And if that was the purpose of a holiday that wasn't brought to any kind of fruition or my front, Aw,

Rohini Ross (3m 26s):
Do I get up the little violin now

Angus Ross (3m 28s):
To, I mean, I did have a great time. I don't want to peak not complaining. I'm not complaining, but it was not the kind of vacation where I had fantasized about having for a good portion of this past year where I would be lying prostate on a beach, somewhere, reading a novel for at least five days, solid with very little need for any kind of movement other than to order a cocktail or feed myself or to jump into an ocean because I was so damn hot that did not happen

Rohini Ross (4m 2s):
Well, we've been together. We've been married now 27 years and been together 29. And I don't think we've ever had that. Yeah.

Angus Ross (4m 10s):
And how long have I been saying that? Although there have been periods where we have done that maybe for two or three days, and you've said, wow, isn't this amazing. I'm like, I've been telling you this for a long time.

Rohini Ross (4m 25s):
Well, I had a really good time and I loved all of the things that we saw.

Angus Ross (4m 28s):
Yeah. I know it, it was good. And I had, I had fun. Absolutely. I just feel like there's a part of me that still feels a little bit exhausted maybe. Cause I was, I was the designated driver for a week and there was a lot of rushing around trying to find the latest or most important Instagram opportunity. Not for you, I might add, but for our, for our daughters who, who that seemed to be very much the agenda of the day or of the vacation in general.

Rohini Ross (4m 59s):
Well, I would like to clarify that you weren't the designated driver I offered to drive.

Angus Ross (5m 6s):
No, but that probably would have been more stressful for me.

Rohini Ross (5m 13s):
I could tell that that's why I didn't drive.

Angus Ross (5m 16s):
Right.

Rohini Ross (5m 18s):
Why would that have been more stressful? I'm not a bad driver. Am I?

Angus Ross (5m 22s):
Cause I, cause I feel like the car that we rented, but it's by which actually was probably not the best idea. We should have probably got a four wheel truck, but there

Rohini Ross (5m 31s):
Wasn't a lot of choices.

Angus Ross (5m 32s):
It wasn't a lot of choice. So we got a, we got a convertible. I don't know if you'd even say it was a sports car. It was, it was, it was a piece of junk. So I was concerned.

Rohini Ross (5m 44s):
Let's

Angus Ross (5m 44s):
Not say the name, we won't say the name, but the convertible part of it, the roof was really like, I felt like my head was like against the roof the whole time. So it was really poor visibility.

Rohini Ross (5m 56s):
So I would have probably a better driver.

Angus Ross (5m 58s):
She might be actually to be honest, the whole irony of it all is it probably would have driven it a lot better than I did, but it was not an uncommon, it was an uncomfortable drive and it was a bit jerky. The brakes were quite acute. I don't know. You probably have done a great job, but I felt like also because it was a convertible, I guess there was an extra element of safety to consider. Like if we do for do roll the vehicle, we obviously mustn't do everybody would have been squashed. So I felt like I should take on this responsibility.

Rohini Ross (6m 28s):
Well, I'm very, I am grateful. You did not. But I was willing. I just need to make that. Yeah.

Angus Ross (6m 32s):
Did yes, no, you were, you, you definitely made yourself available, but it seemed like it would be better.

Rohini Ross (6m 39s):
And I am a good driver, but you are a more experienced driver than me. Yeah.

Angus Ross (6m 44s):
Yeah. And actually, because the whole world and their daughter was in Awahoo at this time of year, certain beaches, which I would have actually preferred not to have gone to. Cause they were very popular, busy beaches, but they weren't good Instagram beaches. Like the, the parking was pretty awful and you know, you know how you hate park.

Rohini Ross (7m 9s):
I'm not as good. You can get into a space that is so tiny. That's pretty amazing.

Angus Ross (7m 14s):
Yeah. For my many years of having to park a car in London, I got very adept at that parking. So that's, doesn't seem to be something that is necessarily a skill set that you've embraced

Rohini Ross (7m 25s):
In Canada. There was lots of room to park. Exactly.

Angus Ross (7m 29s):
Maybe not now. Maybe not now.

Rohini Ross (7m 32s):
And we, I could have driven and said, Hey Angus, can you park the car? Cause we've done that many a time. Yeah.

Angus Ross (7m 38s):
I'd have to get out. And it wouldn't be convenient and just seem like better, better for me to drive in general. You wouldn't

Rohini Ross (7m 45s):
Be able to motivate having to drive the whole time. I don't know exactly.

Angus Ross (7m 49s):
Well you'll know better next time.

Rohini Ross (7m 51s):
Well, this might be a theme with Hawaii because we've only been there twice and the last time we came back, you were exhausted as well.

Angus Ross (8m 0s):
Yeah, actually I was,

Rohini Ross (8m 4s):
But maybe that's because I like more active vacations.

Angus Ross (8m 7s):
Yeah. But there was a lot of activity on that last Hawaiian trip. Physical activity. No, not this one. I think the first one that we did, there was a lot of physical activity. There was a lot of hiking, a lot of snorkeling, which I, all of, all of which I absolutely loved.

Rohini Ross (8m 23s):
We did hiking and snorkeling on this trip. I know. I,

Angus Ross (8m 26s):
The only part of this trip that I wasn't thrilled about was the busy beaches that don't like a busy beach. I like to have it all to myself. I know in this day and age that's pretty, pretty unlike

Rohini Ross (8m 36s):
Quite a few

Angus Ross (8m 36s):
Did. I would have rather stayed there, push come to a shove. But you know, when we were in Hawaii, Hawaii, our first trip. Yeah. I mean both, both vacations were wonderful. Don't get me wrong. But I know that we were pretty busy doing physical activity on that first trip. And I think that there are, there were definitely some memorable moments it's quote on, I think by my physical exhaustion and I know exactly where this is going. So you might as well get out of your system. Now tell your story on. You've been dining out on it ever since

Rohini Ross (9m 19s):
I do love this story. So when we were coming back from Hawaii, the first time he went, which was, gosh, how long ago was that? Now?

Angus Ross (9m 31s):
I don't know. It was probably five years ago.

Rohini Ross (9m 32s):
It's more than five years. Yeah. We went to Sri Lanka was five years ago. Yeah. So it was probably seven years ago. And so we can't really blame age on this cause you have a lost your marbles. So I'm

Angus Ross (9m 47s):
Blaming exhaustion.

Rohini Ross (9m 49s):
We had done quite an intensive hike, but we had the kids on that hike. So it wasn't that intensive.

Angus Ross (9m 56s):
It was intensive and everybody thought we were stark raving, mad to be on that hike in those weather conditions. And you just had the eye of the tiger that, you know, we're going to do this hike come hell or high water, which actually has been quite literal in terms of high waterpark, that statement. Cause we had to traverse this stream that had probably had to endure hours of rainfall. So anyway, I'm just setting the stage. Pray, continue. All right.

Rohini Ross (10m 23s):
So I will give you that you were a little tired, but we were all fine. And we were all just traveling back to LA. And so we get to the airport and we have to go through security. And I think I was the first in line you were behind me and the girls I think were behind you. And this was before I got the TSA pre-check so I was in the same line as you. Why you

Angus Ross (10m 47s):
Got the pre-check in the first place?

Rohini Ross (10m 50s):
I didn't put those two together. That's true. So anyway, I'm going through the line, putting my stuff through the x-ray machine and for whatever reason, I just turned around to say something to you. As I turned around, you've taken your belt off. You've put it in the plastic bin with your other things to go through the x-ray machine and I'm watching you. And after you put your belt in the plastic bin, you start your trousers and pull them down. I was so embarrassed.

Rohini Ross (11m 32s):
I just turned around And I think the last thing I heard was another woman in line laughing.

Angus Ross (11m 47s):
Well, I was so tired that I was just obviously in autopilot and when one takes one's belt off from one Strauss', it would seem like that would be the next logical thing to do. I was just, I was just running on pure habit. At that point, it was very hard. It was very hard to sort of function in a normal way. How

Rohini Ross (12m 12s):
Low did they go to your

Angus Ross (12m 14s):
Knee? No, they didn't get to my knees. They maybe got quite, quite close to my eye boxes, definitely were on display. And I think it was the first time that I was aware of how things were probably not being, or I wasn't conducting my way myself in the way that I should have been. Was it this woman behind me was laughing, but yeah, it had been quite an exhausting trip, but particularly towards the end, because that was that there was that hike. And I think that the, the last thing that we did was that we went swimming where I thought we were all going to drown. That was the last One that was not the first day.

Angus Ross (12m 56s):
No way. That was the first day. It was,

Rohini Ross (12m 58s):
Well, we were rescued by the, the surfboard.

Angus Ross (13m 3s):
No, it was a paddleboard and it wasn't the word you'd like disappeared.

Rohini Ross (13m 7s):
That was

Angus Ross (13m 8s):
The second year 30 safely on the beach. I wasn't maybe, maybe the third day. I don't know what it all blended into one. It was great. But there was a lot of, there's a lot of activity that was a little bit too much for Angus evidently based on what happened at the airport on the way. Oh, so we

Rohini Ross (13m 25s):
Can say that you kept your pants on and stuff.

Angus Ross (13m 27s):
I did keep my pants on this day, although I

Rohini Ross (13m 30s):
Have pre-check and you doubts

Angus Ross (13m 32s):
Though, I did refuse to do the crazy hike that you want us to do with our eldest daughter. There was that potential to have that same, exact same experience. And I might add that the height that they wanted to do that I don't like, I am not doing that hike. It just looks dangerous. Intuitively it felt dangerous. And then when I came back to get them, I could see there was like a couple of reefs at the trail head. And if ever there was an indicator, this is probably not the safest type of thing you can do is that some poor soul had lost their life and flowers, but were being laid.

Rohini Ross (14m 6s):
And there wasn't a car accident on the road.

Angus Ross (14m 7s):
Cause it was actually on the Trailhead. So there

Rohini Ross (14m 13s):
You don't actually know. Well, we actually didn't end up doing the hike

Angus Ross (14m 17s):
Because it was because it looked too treacherous it. Yeah. Thank you.

Rohini Ross (14m 23s):
And I wasn't the one that went to that high car, Elvis one.

Angus Ross (14m 25s):
That's true. Well, I was having no part of it. Otherwise I would've pulled my trousers down, probably taken all my clothes off. I don't know what I would have done,

Rohini Ross (14m 36s):
But we did it. So I did, I do have pre-check nobody else in the family chose to get pre-checked. So I went through a separate line and you got pulled off or you would, the girls got pulled over on the way in, because our daughter was bringing all of her crystals with a whole of rocks.

Angus Ross (14m 54s):
No, they were rocks. They were sort of some sort of, I don't know, they, they, they were sort of positively charged stones from the garden. I don't know what they were.

Rohini Ross (15m 2s):
They'd probably been, they were

Angus Ross (15m 4s):
Rocks, big paste in the moon. How do you bathe in the moon?

Rohini Ross (15m 9s):
You put them outside in the moon, but she was bringing them to Hawaii for the positive Hawaiian energy.

Angus Ross (15m 16s):
Well, you have it didn't make it that far, but

Rohini Ross (15m 18s):
They made him throw them away.

Angus Ross (15m 20s):
Oh, I think I had walked away and sheer progression. So I don't know what the outcome was For TSA guys. Just pulling rocks from a rucksack. I think she taught the idea of a rock second. It was a rock stack or something.

Rohini Ross (15m 42s):
Well, anyway, we survived vacation without you exposing yourself. That's pretty good.

0 (15m 51s):
Okay.

Rohini Ross (16m 3s):
We thought it would be good today to talk about low moods and why? I think it's so helpful to talk about low moods and relationship is because once people have a good understanding of low moons, it makes relationships so much easier and more graceful. And I want to be clear that having an understanding of low moods doesn't mean that once you have that understanding that you should stay in an unhealthy relationship, there's certain relationships that it's healthier to leave. So, you know, listen to your wisdom and follow your wisdom regarding that.

Rohini Ross (16m 44s):
And there's certain people that just have a really easy time in relationship. Like they're just intuitively skilled and don't get too worked up. That's not us.

Angus Ross (17m 0s):
Don't me. Don't fall into that category.

Rohini Ross (17m 4s):
So this is for that category of relationship like ours, where you have two people who are fairly sensitive and who can get caught up and having an understanding about low moods has really helped because we do want to be together and we do want our relationship to work, but we had a really hard time in our relationship, even though we wanted to be together because we just didn't get this.

Angus Ross (17m 28s):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I guess, and I imagine people who are listening to this pop-up podcasts going to like, well, what's, what's the magic, what's the magic bullet. What's the secret here. And we're not going to be able to offer that in a way where probably it will be satisfactory. And I was just going to say, cause it made me think of that movie though, that I often talk about the Peter Sellers movie. Dr. Strange love, because I feel like in those moments where I get caught up and I do get caught up and I can kind of like take the bait hotline and sinker on occasion and an old narrative can come into being, it's almost like, I feel like that character in Dr.

Angus Ross (18m 7s):
Strangelove, <inaudible>, he's half scientist and half Nazi where he's wanting to do the Nazi salute and, and the scientist and him is trying to hold down the Nazi salute. And, and in those moments where I know that I'm just completely losing the plot, but nevertheless, one to, to, to sort of jump on the narrative for that plot and, and, and, and, and operate from that standpoint, there's a part of me just knows, no, don't do it. Don't do it, hold it down, hold that Nazi salute down. Or that part of myself down. And I think on occasion, I think, I guess that's kind of a healthy way to be for me in, in a certain respect, because at least I'm aware of what's going on, but I do feel like, you know, it's easy for people to think that yeah, you know what we've figured it all out, but the fact is we're human.

Angus Ross (18m 58s):
We're going to have those moments. And I do have those moments and that old narrative is easily invigorated and it comes down to a choice. Do I want to, do I want to jump on board that train of thought and put words and actions in that, in that feeling or, or do I just realize not, you know what, I don't want to trust the sentiment. I don't want to trust the thinking that I'm having in this state of mind and ultimately that's, what's helpful and been a game changer for sure. In our marriage and for sure in just life in general, where I find myself, this is, it makes my life so much easier. And it's, it's a situation where I'm far like far less likely to suffer in those moments.

Rohini Ross (19m 41s):
So first of all, we want to be clear that you can have a great relationship without having it all figured out. Like, I feel like we have a great relationship and we still get caught up. We still get into arguments at times. It's not perfect. We both have low mood. Sometimes we have both low moods at the same time. That's usually a disaster and we can have a great relationship. And that's what I think is so hopeful for people because so much in the self-help industry and the psychology industry focuses on trying to improve people. And it's exhausting. I'm tired trying to improve myself and I don't want to improve myself anymore, but I still want to have a great life.

Rohini Ross (20m 26s):
I want to have a great relationship. I want to enjoy living experience, but I don't want to work on myself anymore. And you can, you can be a fallible human being with frailties and still have a wonderful living experience that is going to include low moods probably. And so the way to have a great experience and a great relationship is not to try and eliminate the low moods or improve yourself. So you don't have low moods because that just puts pressure on yourself. And it has much more likelihood of things going awry because of all that pressure.

Angus Ross (21m 8s):
Yeah. Well, well said it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I feel like I was just reflecting on how, you know, there aren't many times where you get into a low mood these days. I'm sure it probably, I fly the flag on that front a little bit more, but so firstly, but it's interesting how, I don't know, there are occasions where you might get into a low mood and I'm kind of like, wow, she's in a low mood and I'm actually much better equipped now just to realize that, oh yeah, you know, her state of mind has gone south and she's putting words and actions on that state of mind and that's all that's happening. It's almost like a character that you play or I might see that you play.

Angus Ross (21m 50s):
And sometimes it can be a little bit amusing, heaven forbid I would ever let you see that I was finding that amusing, but I know that you find it amusing sometimes. So witness me in that state on occasion, I was actually just thinking last week I was really moved. And it's funny now to think about it. I didn't think it was funny at the time, but I so wanted to scream and shout at you and you were, you were so level-headed and as cool as a cucumber and it was making me even more infuriating. What was going on? I can't remember. I remember being in a low mood. I think I was just struggling with something, probably something on the work front that I was feeling a bit nervous about and you weren't playing ball at all.

Angus Ross (22m 33s):
I was wanting to be totally outside in and, and, and, and just to let you know how my wellbeing is so dependent on the outside world, it has nothing to do with thoughts. Although I remember just slapping my flight FYS and gripping my legs, slap your Thighs. Did I not say my FYS nearly said my flight, maybe you heard that. I said, my FYS two weeks, you decided to mimic me and make exactly the same expression, which thinking back it was quite hysterical. And that's just one of those characters that I might play. It's almost like I get this, this persona comes into being that is very much a part of that old narrative when I allow myself to get caught up and, and jump on that train of thought.

Angus Ross (23m 24s):
I don't know. It's funny. I think it's funny to see how there is that opportunity to see it in a way where it can start to look quite humorous because it's so in a way it's kind of like you're taken over by this alien creature. It's really nothing to do with who we are at our core. It's just the old programming conditioning. It's kind of fascinating, but it's kind of hilarious as well. Do you remember that?

Rohini Ross (23m 48s):
Vaguely, it's

Angus Ross (23m 50s):
Actually a very good impersonation, timeless, quiet, annoying as well.

Rohini Ross (23m 56s):
No, I remember thinking, wow. I was lucky I got away with that

Angus Ross (24m 3s):
Should have been an actress.

Rohini Ross (24m 16s):
So let's just do a little bit of unpacking around low moons for people that might know, have any clue about what we're talking about. So in terms of our human psychology, we all have moods go up and down. And I think we all can recognize what a good mood feels like. And we can all recognize what a low mood feels like. And so when we're talking about a low mood, we're talking about that experience when we're not in a good mood, then it could be slightly not in good mood or it could be really not. So there can be a, a big continuum of low mood experience, but when we're in that state of mind, our perceptions become distorted because we experience reality through thoughts.

Rohini Ross (25m 13s):
When we have low mood thinking, our reality shifts it's different. And when we are more in good feelings in a high mood state, we have a different experience of reality. So why this is so important for relationships is because our partners look different between when we're in a hive

Angus Ross (25m 41s):
And we can be like literally,

Rohini Ross (25m 44s):
And we could really be in love with our high mood looking partner,

Angus Ross (25m 50s):
I suppose, to this crazy lunatic is trying to squeeze all the blood out of his thighs.

Rohini Ross (25m 58s):
So and so, and it goes both ways, right? So I could be in a low mood and you could be fine and I can look at you and feel animosity towards you. And not like you, even though you're totally fine, there's nothing different in you. Or I could be in a good mood and you could be in a low mood and behaving like a real asshole and be like, oh, I don't like this guy. So, and you can have two people in a low mood, which is very disastrous, usually when that happens, but that's where we have to learn to be gentle on ourselves and realize that we can bounce back. But I think, do you think that will give people enough of a sense what we're talking about?

Rohini Ross (26m 39s):
Yeah.

Angus Ross (26m 39s):
Yeah. And I just want to, just to sort of piggyback on statement that could be disastrous because I think, yeah, that's going to be where it's critical for you. And I, I think that generally that's sort of, you know, there's a sort of perfect storm conditions, but still nevertheless, I still feel like, and maintain that we spend far less time in that state. We might have that we might exchange a few bobs. There might be a shot across the bow, but for the most part, it's a case of like, who gets there first to kind of like re re recovers first and see and remembers what's going on remembering that this is just a state of mind issue. I think I'm pretty good at remembering that when you lose your shit, which is very rare and far and few between these days, I think that I, that at some point I realized, oh God, she's got there too.

Angus Ross (27m 28s):
And it's almost like I would probably initiate proceedings on that front. And then there's something about me seeing it in you. Oh, she's, you know, her state of mind has gone south and, and she's acting accordingly. But I think it's a case that we remember pretty quickly, these days that's been a game changer. And what's so fantastic about it too, is there's like, there's little to be done. There's just to realize what's going on. It's not like, you know, in the old days, I, God, you know, this means we've got to go back to therapy or we've got to do hundreds of pages of freeform writing to get it all out of us. It's, it's a case that, you know, yeah. One of us lost the plot because their state of mind had gone south and that's just what happens.

Angus Ross (28m 9s):
And we forgot that was the case.

Rohini Ross (28m 12s):
Yeah. So that I think is really helpful for people to see that we're not saying that you're not going to evolve and grow in consciousness that is natural for all human beings to be learning and growing. And so being on the learning curve of navigating low moods absolutely means that you're going to have less low moods. And if you do have a low mood, it probably won't go as low. And that if you do have a low mood, you won't stay there as long. So absolutely there's going to be a learning curve. So we're not saying it's just status quo and you're stuck where you're at, but it's important to recognize that wherever you're at is fine and that there can be the ability to enjoy your experience with whatever level of understanding you have in this moment.

Angus Ross (29m 3s):
Yeah. And I, I think that the fact is is that we become more self-aware and we gathered together more reference points. And just by realizing that, you know, when we're in a subtle state of mind, the optics are going to be entirely different. If, you know, if we're in a, in a low mood and we start to invigorate that thinking that comes along with that low mood, I look at the world through that lens. It's going to be tainted by that low mood. But the fact is that when we have an awareness on that level and that awareness starts to grow is you just start to see how it unfolds. So for an example, for an example, I think this is a pretty good example on the, that we've recently non relaxing, not relaxing vacation.

Angus Ross (29m 48s):
I think I quickly realized that that this was going to be one of those vacations where I was delighted that the girls wanted to come along with us. So that was wonderful. And it was so wonderful on that level, but I quickly realized that I was not going to be fulfilling those fantasies about being prostate on a, on a beach, reading a novel that there was going to be a lot of going back and forth and various activities to be done, which I kind of resigned myself to that fact. But I think after a week of doing that, there was one particular day where there were one too many activities in a day for my liking, which involved a lot of driving and going back and forth. And by the end of the day, I literally was spent, and I didn't want to have anything to do with the whole dinner situation.

Angus Ross (30m 33s):
So I just, like, I thought I would just leave it to you and the girls to figure out what dinner would be. But I do seem to recall that I wanted to eat in, but I didn't want to go to a restaurant. So I don't know, by the time that I became conscious of the fact that, you know, things were being figured out on the dinner front and that it, it did involve driving back into Waikiki at this time, you know, this at a time where literally the whole world feels like it's in Waikiki, the moment added to which there's a, there's a, you know, the variant is spiking there too. So there are things to be concerned about. So I didn't want to go and sit physically in a restaurant we were to take out. But I think, you know, the first conversation seemed to be around sitting inside a restaurant.

Angus Ross (31m 17s):
So that's when I started to get a bit irritated and it kind of grew from there. And then I felt like I was being sucked into the whole process of ordering, ordering dinner. I don't know. I started a narrative, started to coalesce around my feelings towards my eldest daughter. And I think at this point, probably people were starting to get a little bit hangry as they say, I guess I was too. And I was getting irritated by, you know, by her, her behavior, whatever that was, it doesn't matter. It was entirely around my state of mind. And eventually I probably said something that was probably a little unpleasant. I dunno, I had a hissy fit.

Angus Ross (31m 58s):
You did, you had a hissy fit and stormed out? Well, I did. I don't know if that could be described as a hissy fit. There may be some texture and color to the conversation that was negative. And it did culminate in me saying, right, well, you guys figure it out. I'm going to go and sit in the car. And I guess my parting shot was, well, I am the Uber driver after all or something along those lines, it was enough of a hissy fit for there to be tears. Okay. Well, I didn't know that until later, anyway, straight my point, I was in a very negative frame of mind. I went outside to get into the car. By the time I got outside, I looked up at the sky and it was just the most beautiful, you know, it was a F it was almost a full moon.

Angus Ross (32m 41s):
All the stars are out and it was just spectacular. And I was just completely enchanted by the sky. And I got really caught up in it and just really enjoyed that moment. And it was just really present in that moment. And then before, you know, literally within two minutes, I realized I had completely settled down and it allowed me to get perspective on what had happened and realize again, you know, I think knowing what I know now, it just showed me, yeah, look what, look what I do and how I think when I'm in a low state of mind. And when I put words and actions on that state of mind, and that's what was born out in that conversation with you and the girls. And look what happens when I'm in chanted by this beautifully starry night, quickly settled down, went back inside and got brought involved in the whole process of ordering dinner and going out to dinner.

Angus Ross (33m 31s):
I didn't know, I didn't know this until later that this had resulted in our eldest daughter feeling, you know, upset to that extent, which I felt ruined, I felt really sad about. And obviously I addressed that, but that aside, just from the point of view, it's really interesting for me now just to see how, when I do get settled, how quickly I can realize yeah. You know, I have a completely different opinion from that vantage point. And from that vantage point, staring up at the moon and all its glory and getting settled in my state of mind, of course, I don't have that same level of feeling or having, or having those thoughts. And I was very well able to come back in and be involved in the process of ordering dinner and not even upset by the fact that yes, it did involve me driving back into Waikiki and having to stand in a frigging line,

Rohini Ross (34m 23s):
Not a very long,

Angus Ross (34m 24s):
Very long line, but initially it looked like a very long line and we did all

Rohini Ross (34m 27s):
Go with you. Wouldn't send

Angus Ross (34m 28s):
You by yourself. You did. Yes. So, but I, you know, that was just, I think one blip. Wouldn't you say? That was my one only blip on the vacation. That was

Rohini Ross (34m 37s):
The main blip.

Angus Ross (34m 41s):
I think that's the only blip. I don't think there are any other blitz let's you want to share? I don't think there are any other blips.

Rohini Ross (34m 54s):
Well, there was some Mony times to me

Angus Ross (34m 58s):
It's I don't think there were many, many times there are many, maybe, maybe it was a little bit, a bit of moaning about the sort of the whole sort of Instagram, the mapping out of the island in terms of Instagram placements.

Rohini Ross (35m 14s):
Well, I think you didn't like that we were leaving later in the afternoon, but I quite enjoyed having our mornings to herself. So

Angus Ross (35m 22s):
Yeah. Well, I figured that out eventually after some, cause I realized actually that's where I was shooting myself in the foot that actually provided me with that opportunity to lie on a sun lounger and read a novel. So when I finally got the message on that front, I embraced that for all that it was worth. But initially it was like, I kept looking at my watch thinking like, we can actually get going here, but still it was still an amazing time.

Rohini Ross (35m 58s):
So in terms of being helpful to other people on low moods. Yeah. What I think is most important to recognize is that it's normal. It's healthy for moods to go up and down. That is part of the signal that we have that helps us know when to rest, when to eat, when to take care of ourselves, like that's feedback, it's all healthy feedback. It's nothing wrong with us. And that it's important for us to not override those signals and practice self care around that.

Rohini Ross (36m 41s):
And so when we understand that it's normal, then there's the ability to not have judgment towards ourselves and also not have judgment on other people when they happen to be in a low mood. And I think normalizing it is really takes a lot of pressure off. And so when it's not about eradicating it or fixing it or doing something about it, it's just understanding human beings have moods that go up and down. When you're in relationship with other human beings, you're going to see them have that experience. And you're going to have that experience yourself. So having a fun, intimate, connected relationship, isn't about not having low moods.

Rohini Ross (37m 25s):
It's about how do we have that with humans that have moves that go up and down. So it means making room for that. And when we make room for that, it's so much easier to not take the experience personally, to not make it mean something. And another thing that humans do is they make meaning up all of the time they put dots together. And so you might be for example, in a low mood and without even realizing it, I'm putting dots together in my head making it mean something, oh, this means our day's going to be spoiled. Or this means, you know, whatever, I'm making some kind of meaning up about it. When we start to see that, that part's optional, that gives us a lot of freedom and we don't have to make meaning up about our own low moods either.

Rohini Ross (38m 13s):
We see it's just a state of mind, that's going to come and go that we actually don't need to do anything to make it go because it will naturally pass. Then that allows us to weather the experience of experiences of low mood and relationship in a way that takes less of an emotional toll on us. I couldn't agree more. And, and, you know, I think that for me, my old way of being would have been to always. And I think that we always do this is that we tend to take it out on nearest and dearest the first available person that comes our way in that state of mind.

Rohini Ross (38m 54s):
I think my ego would, would not, would always want to find the fall guy for that, that feeling that I'm having at this point. And it has to be you because you're there and, and, and I'm probably going to do everything in my power to, to make you responsible. And then to sort of embellish that narrative. That's probably already there anyway and give it some, give it some more weight, and now I'm getting much better just realizing, you know what, this is, this feelings that I'm having. Now, that's an indicator that my state of mind has gone south, and I don't need to trust that thinking. And that has been a game changer and continues to be so well, that's a really important point because most people have that coping mechanism.

Rohini Ross (39m 34s):
When we get into a low mood feeling, we instinctively try to find someone or something to blame it on and discharge our emotional discomfort on that person or by complaining about that thing, because it really looks in that moment, like if that were different, we would be happier. And so if we can see that, that's what just about everybody does in a low mood. Even we do that in a low mood. That's why you were slapping your thighs,

Angus Ross (40m 5s):
Squeezing the blood out of them

Rohini Ross (40m 8s):
Because I wasn't buying your game, but it wasn't a state of mind issue when you're trying to do your best to convince me there was something really going on in your life. And, but it's, it's like, it looks like if this circumstance was different, if this person were different than I would be happier. And we can't see in that moment that that's not really the source of our suffering, where it's invisible to us, that our thoughts, the meaning that we're making up is what's causing our suffering in that moment. So there has to be room for those lapses to happen for ourselves and in relationship. And if we have room for that and we understand that I'm not always going to see it that way, you're not always going to see it that way.

Rohini Ross (40m 54s):
Then it's less of a big deal when we have those lapses. And like he said, we can kind of see the humerus and they happen now much more easily. And, and relationships are so much easier when we have room for our humanness. When we have room for our partners humanness there, it it's like these storms become, you know, storms in a teacup, not storms that create massive discomfort and disarray in the relationship.

Angus Ross (41m 26s):
There's other things I wanted to talk about, which is sort of fresh in my mind. Cause I feel like this is something that I'm starting to explore for myself now is, is, is, is around the conversation of presence and awareness in those moments where I do start to notice that I'm stirred up. So as a case, in point prior to us now sitting down to do this podcast, you asked me to set up the mics and all the, all the acoustical. And in that process, it was almost like there was a Pavlovian response because I think in the past I have had the odd hissy fit to in these podcasts because it feels like it's something that we do where I feel like I have to show up and I have to be spontaneous. And it feels like, you know, a certain amount of pressure.

Angus Ross (42m 8s):
Like I have to be in a pretty good feeling. I feel like there's a pressure for me to show up and be in a good feeling so that hopefully we can produce a podcast that somewhat valuable. And so I started to feel tense. And so I set up the mix, came back into the living room, sat down with you. And I was able just to sort of feel my feelings and I felt tense. And I was just able to sort of open up to you about the fact that I felt tense and what was going on. And in the past, I think that what would happen is like what you're saying about, you know, looking for, or not even sort of consciously looking for the, what did you call it? Not the distraction, know the, how we create these coping mechanisms in a sense, my way of coping with that discomfort, coping with that tension typically in the past has been to take it out on you.

Angus Ross (42m 58s):
I've been the punching bag and there's something so fascinating to me about the way that I'm at that part of our mind can work and operate. Is it, look, it's looking for a solution. It's looking for a reason. And in my innocence, in that state of mind, I'm stack equipment. It's not like it goes to steep sleep. It's still looking for an answer, a reason why we feel the way that we do. And without me taking a moment to sort of like see the indicator for me, you know, being stirred up, me feeling tense. If I wasn't even aware at that level, I would just allow that part of my mind to look for the fall guy looked for the reason why, and it would always be barking up the wrong tree. And that's what we do in those moments of getting out of balance is we allow that piece of analytical equipment to do its job and the way that it always does this job, but it just sort of gathers together the material, which is just a complete illusion or, or just completely a reflection of our state of mind.

Angus Ross (43m 51s):
So there's something for me around being able to be present in those moments where I just started to feel my feelings. And I'm just sort of sit with it rather than just continue to sort of like, you know, carry on as normal or carry on and, and, and really kind of like make you the problem when it was nothing, nothing to do with you whatsoever. So I'm seeing that more and more for myself as I'm getting much better at seeing the indicators and then sort of checking in, in sight. Not, not that it's purposeful, it's just, it's something that occurs to me to do. It's almost like I've developed a new muscle in that situation.

Angus Ross (44m 30s):
<inaudible>

Rohini Ross (44m 43s):
Well, I think what I hear you saying in that, which is really helpful is that when you notice that you were feeling tense, you took care of yourself and settled rather than sort of putting the foot on the gas and accelerating and getting more and more sped out, which would have then had you become more, more distorted in your thinking and found something wrong with me to blame. And, you know, that would have ended up being much harder for us to have an enjoyable experience doing this

Angus Ross (45m 19s):
A more distorted Angus. You should say that, see what happens.

Rohini Ross (45m 25s):
I should pull a face like a fun pair,

Angus Ross (45m 29s):
You know? And, and there was another thing that I, that happened fairly recently and I've shared this before. I haven't shared it in the podcast is like when I was in the kitchen a couple of weeks ago. And I think I've had a very busy day and it was my turn to cook a new or elsewhere. And the kitchen was in complete chaos and disarray. So I had to go through that routine of cleaning up the workspace so that I could cook, which took a long, long time in my estimation, finally got the, the dinner on the go on the stove top, everything was put away and everything was clean. The dishwasher was, was emptied and then reloaded by all the stuff that was left in the sink.

Angus Ross (46m 11s):
This took about an hour or so. And I'm like in, I'm just sweating all over after this activity. And I kind of like finished everything. And I had been all along looking forward to just sitting on the couch and just enjoying a soccer game that I had recorded. And I poured myself a glass of lemonade, a large tumbler full of lemonade, and I filled it to the brim and I just looked at it just, I'm sure I was salivating at the prospect of taking that first sip. And even probably just taking it, just starting to move it towards my mouth, that somehow slipped out of my hand and dropped onto the floor and hap and it smashed into a million pieces.

Angus Ross (46m 54s):
And it's almost like it happened in slow motion. And this is what I'm finding, what I'm starting to be curious about in terms of what I'm talking about presence, because I think there is a new muscle developing because in the past that would have happened and I was just gone apeshit and there's no two ways about it, but I immediately got curious about the flight or flight chemicals that were coursing through my veins. And instead of like jumping on the, sort of the habitual pattern of how you react to this situation, which would have been to scream and shout and act like a maniac, it's almost like I was more interested in the flight or flight clinicals, coursing through my veins.

Angus Ross (47m 34s):
And it's almost like the glass hit the floor in slow motion and it did smash into a million pieces, but I was presented with this choice point either you can step into the shoes of that old character that comes along with that old narrative, or you can just like take it for what it's worth. The glass is smashed on the floor. You got to clean it up. Why waste time having a hissy fit, which is just going to prolong the pain and agony of that whole activity. Just get it done and just get on with your day. And it was amazing to me, I feel like I want to pat myself on the back for, for not engaging at that level, because that's how I would have operated in the past. No two ways about it, you know, under those terms and those conditions.

Angus Ross (48m 15s):
And I just see for myself, there's just, there is this sort of choice point where I don't know if it's a choice point or it's just a case of me becoming more self-aware and, and that again is another, that's another, another way where I feel like this understanding. Yeah, of course it's always been a game changer, but that game is just getting easier and easier.

Rohini Ross (48m 36s):
Yeah. The understanding deepening is what reveals the choice point without the understanding. There's no choice previously, you didn't have a choice. You just were reactive. And there was no choice with deeper understanding of where experience comes from and something like that happens. It does happen in a way where you see there's a choice and that's a reflection of understanding.

Angus Ross (49m 0s):
That's very cool. I know it was a case of me seeing my program, you and conditions.

Rohini Ross (49m 5s):
And I have to check cause I have a feeling, you talked about this on the last podcast we did before we left. I don't know if it sounds familiar.

Angus Ross (49m 13s):
It's probably a familiar, I just cause it, I think it just was a, it was a defining moment for me. It was profound because I think that he, every other based on those conditions, I was already kind of annoyed by the fact that I'm having to clean up the kitchen. And I, and I was so looking forward just to sitting down doing nothing. And I do have a thing about having to get the, get the house clean before I can generally relax.

Rohini Ross (49m 35s):
Well, the reason I know that happened before he left is because that hasn't happened since you've been home. Cause I haven't been working.

Angus Ross (49m 42s):
Oh exactly. Yeah. You've been doing a fair amount of, of cleaning up. I'm very grateful for that.

Rohini Ross (49m 47s):
Yeah. Because I haven't been working I've had time, so

Angus Ross (49m 50s):
I'm very grateful that for that long, may it last, we can still, we can still kind of figure out a way where we can share the load and the burden. It's not so much you it's, it's sort of like this sort of, there are other

Rohini Ross (50m 4s):
Yeah, no, I know it's not me, but there we, we haven't mastered the art of wrangling the house work with the young ones. No, we

Angus Ross (50m 16s):
Have not yet.

Rohini Ross (50m 18s):
And they're pretty close to moving out. So I don't know if we're ever going to figure that out.

Angus Ross (50m 22s):
I don't know how close they are to moving out, but I think needs to be attended to.

Rohini Ross (50m 29s):
So do you feel like we've made a clear point that it's going to be helpful for others about having an easier time in their relationship navigating being human and having low moods?

Angus Ross (50m 43s):
Well, I would like to think so.

Rohini Ross (50m 45s):
Is there anything,

Angus Ross (50m 48s):
We certainly talked a lot about mood. Well that's because that was

Rohini Ross (50m 51s):
The point that this episode,

Angus Ross (50m 54s):
Well then I think we've made the point,

Rohini Ross (50m 56s):
But have we given clear enough practical enough feedback? That's going to be helpful to people?

Angus Ross (51m 2s):
Yeah. Well, I mean, there's no magic magic bullet to it. And I think that people, if they listened to this podcast and had that expectation, they might feel disappointed, but, but we're always going to try to make the point that it is about awareness. And I think that's, that's, that's, what's come forward for me. That's really how it's landed in our relationship where things have become much, so much easier is that I'm much more self-aware in those moments where I noticed where I'm in a low mood and I'm far less likely to engage in the thinking that comes along with it, I think

Rohini Ross (51m 39s):
Is one key point that we haven't said yet, as I'm reflecting on this, is that the precursor for me, of being able to have better perspective on low mood was having a deeper experience of my own wellbeing within myself.

Angus Ross (51m 57s):
What's a good one. Isn't it? How did we miss that? We didn't miss

Rohini Ross (52m 1s):
It.

Angus Ross (52m 3s):
I'm saying, how come we haven't talked about that already? Get ready, continue.

Rohini Ross (52m 8s):
We can talk about it more. Maybe in the next time we do one, but that it was through experiencing more of my own safety and wellbeing within myself. That allowed me to get more perspective on my human psychology and that safety and well-being within myself is really a deeper experience of connection with my spiritual nature. So obviously I'm a spiritual being and was always, you know, spiritual so that wasn't new. But I had a deeper experience of the feeling of that. And from that, I was able to have more perspective on the vicissitudes of my human experience.

Angus Ross (52m 55s):
Oh, that's a good word. Isn't it? Vicissitude <inaudible> Vicissitudes. Yeah. Well, well, how did that happen?

Rohini Ross (53m 9s):
I had an insight. How does any of it happen? We, I fell into an awareness. I had an insight that I had been misguided in my efforts to try and improve myself and improve my psychological experience. And instead of trying to improve it to feel better, I saw that I could just let it be an in the, letting it be. I surrendered to what is, and I fell into this incredibly beautiful feeling inside of myself.

Angus Ross (53m 59s):
I mean, this is kind of a nice place to end if indeed we are ending, but it does. It is so good to look at how we have that experience. We have that in our core selves is one of one of innate wellbeing and that when we're not in an eight while being aware or caught up then that in itself is the indicator. But we do have a reference point of what wellbeing feels like. So it does come back to, you know, it comes back to feeling how we feeling. And the fact is wellbeing is a really beautiful serene feeling.

Angus Ross (54m 40s):
And that's who we all are. That's our essential spiritual nature. And that's our north star. That's the compass point that we're living our lives by whether we even realize it or not. We're looking for that wellbeing. We don't even need to look for it. Cause it was always there. It doesn't from time to time, we fall into it and, and it feels just so wonderful, but that's, that's who we are at our core. And the rest of it is all the stuff that we make up along the way, the programming and conditioning. And I think that that in itself is a beautiful thing to have awareness about and to continue to, to, to explore.

Rohini Ross (55m 18s):
Yeah. So it's, it's really both. And that we can look in the direction of our true nature and that well being, and, and not look with any kind of seeking simply acknowledging what's there and being open to what's there. And that gives us more perspective on the psychological part of our human experience. Yeah. Which when we have more perspective on the psychological part of our human experience allows us to navigate relationships more easily. Yeah.

Angus Ross (55m 57s):
Well I think that probably wraps it up that covers all the bases. I don't know. Do you think that we've turned all those stones over that we need to?

Rohini Ross (56m 8s):
Yes, I think so. And if we didn't, we'll get some questions hopefully so that we can elucidate further the next time, but we've run the gamut from indecent exposure to true nature. Exactly.

Angus Ross (56m 24s):
I guess there aren't many podcasts that cover all those bases.

Rohini Ross (56m 29s):
So we have our re welder guide training, which is for therapists, coaches, mental health professionals that want to help others from the understanding that we share. And you know, we're doing it together this year. I did it by myself last year. So I'm excited to be doing it with you. And it's a really beautiful experience of dropping into that space as a group into that space of, of love, connection, support, deepening in understanding, and then having practical support in how to bring that out in service to helping others in the world.

Rohini Ross (57m 14s):
And so the applications are, due pretty much now. So if you're interested in the program apply now and it's on our website. Yeah.

Angus Ross (57m 21s):
Yes. It's going to be very exciting and I, and I wish you could actually get to see, Rahini just stimulating her, her passion about what we're going to do because her arms going all over the pace. But yeah, we're both thrilled to, to, to make this offering and it's going to be, I think, an exceptional experience.

Rohini Ross (57m 40s):
Yeah. And there's scholarships available tuition assistance. We really want to make this available to anybody that really feels that calling in their heart to be of service to others and to want to help people wake up to the truth of who they are. And so we're really committed in having this be a diverse, inclusive group. And that's why the scholarships are available too. Fantastic.

Angus Ross (58m 6s):
But your intuition be your guide on this one.

Rohini Ross (58m 9s):
Exactly. Follow the feeling. All right.

Angus Ross (58m 11s):
Well, that's it. See you soon. Bye.

0 (58m 14s):
Right.

Rohini Ross (58m 19s):
Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross (58m 30s):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross (58m 36s):
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewilders.org.

Angus Ross (58m 44s):
Thanks for listening, join us next week.