EP41 Jacquie Moses: Holding Space for Healing

We spoke with the incredible Jacquie Moses, who supports others with seeing their true potential and innate resilience.

When Jacquie learned about the understanding that the Rewilding metaphor is based on, she completely shifted the way she works with clients. Instead of trying to "fix" them, she saw the importance of seeing that her clients are completely whole and well just as they are. This creates a transformative healing space for the people she works with, and for herself as well, as she found that she didn't need fixing either.

For several years she delivered mental health interventions in several prisons in the UK. Jacquie and her co-facilitators would create a space centered around two fundamental truths: everyone has 100% innate well-being at their core, and as humans, we experience life from the inside out. Jacquie describes how the men she worked with would "light up", exhibiting as they woke up to the long-forgotten, or never-realized, spark inside of themselves. This was her experience with the participants no matter what their history.

By meeting people right where they are, without trying to control or manage them, we give them permission to begin to trust themselves and experience their own wisdom. Recognizing their divinity allows them to see it too. 

This episode explores:

• The healing power of seeing people's innate health
• Treating clients based on wellness instead of illness
• How to show up authentically with another in a situation of conflict
• The value of human to human, heart to heart connection

Jacquie Moses has worked in diverse settings and has experience working with teams, leaders, young people, and communities. For over four years, she was part of a core team delivering cutting-edge, evidence-based, mental health interventions (based on the Three Principles) in prisons in the UK. Alongside this work, Jacquie has experience of sharing the Principles in organizations and charities and is currently mentoring employees and leaders to become wellbeing ambassadors and mentors within their organizations.

Angus Ross & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate a private couples' intensives retreat program that rewilds relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.

Episode 41 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.

Transcript

Angus Ross (3s):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross (10s):
This is episode number 41 an interview with Jacquie Moses.

Jacquie Moses (15s):
It's really just based on who we're being and what we've done in ourselves.

Rohini Ross (19s):
All of us have that natural imperative within us to heal, to settle, to connect with the truth of who we are,

Jacquie Moses (27s):
To see people just lights up and have a space where they could be honest.

Angus Ross (32s):
We're basically seeing their spiritual essence that divinity within them and relating to them at that level.

Jacquie Moses (38s):
Number three principles. And why didn't this conversation is getting present to who we really are

Rohini Ross (45s):
For us. Bringing that spark back in is the rewilding that's people getting rewilded by that inner spark,

Jacquie Moses (51s):
The presence within us, the unlikeliness within us, that we are not off thoughts and feelings, and that moment

Angus Ross (57s):
As such relief, such a sense of liberation that, wow, you know what? It's okay to be

Rohini Ross (1m 2s):
The general consensus in society is that we are feeling what's happening outside of us, not feeling what we're identifying within ourselves,

Jacquie Moses (1m 11s):
More grounded in value. The more confident I am to allow things to unfold and know that I am capable and putting results to deal with things in any moment,

Angus Ross (1m 25s):
You are listening to rewilding love with me, Angus Ross

Rohini Ross (1m 29s):
And me Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross (1m 31s):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross (1m 35s):
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded

Angus Ross (1m 42s):
Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work

Rohini Ross (1m 49s):
And how it has helped them in their relationships.

Angus Ross (1m 53s):
Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross (2m 5s):
I love spending time with Jacquie Moses. She has such a beautiful presence. She's so warm and centered. Yeah.

Angus Ross (2m 13s):
She's just absolutely lovely. A lovely human being so well, let's, let's get down to brass tacks. Jacquie is a graduate of the one thought Institute mentored by none other than Aaron Turner and mark Gleason and Linda. Pransky what incredible teachers to be mentored by. And I think a huge surfeit of other incredible first-generation three principal teachers she's learned from, and she is a regular speaker at conferences throughout the world. And I've certainly had the opportunity to listen to her firsthand on many occasions. And she is, she's a very accomplished speaker, knows her stuff.

Rohini Ross (2m 57s):
Yes. We were very fortunate to have her on the podcast. And as you'll hear, when you listen to the episode, Jacquie's worked in very diverse settings working from in the corporate field to prison settings and seems like everything else in between. And all of her work is grounded in her own experience of waking up within herself to seeing her true nature and sharing from that experiential knowing it's not a conceptual understanding the way that Jacquie shares it, she's clearly sharing from her own grounding and what she's embodied.

Angus Ross (3m 35s):
Yeah, and I, I think one of the things I really love about Jacquie is she makes no bones about talking about her essential spiritual nature in a way that just sounds really practical and helpful. So this was a great episode. I particularly loved hearing Jacquie's accounts about her experiences working with the prison community. This is something that we've had some experience with too. So it was nice to hear her talk about some of the themes that I felt like we came across in terms of really being able to sit with another human being and not sit in a place of judgment to sit in a place where we are kind of like seeing that on. We're all kind of on the same playing field spiritually.

Angus Ross (4m 17s):
And then I can relate to this person, human, to human and not get caught up in what they've done. Just really develop an intimate connection and, and really relate to one another on that level. That for me was, was interesting to hear someone talk about it on, on those terms.

Rohini Ross (4m 34s):
Yeah. I think it's really healing. And that's what Jacquie talked about, that her work, whether she's working in a prison, whether she's working with executives, whether she's working in a for-profit environment or a nonprofit environment, that it's really all about creating a healing space and that healing space happens when we meet each other human to human soul to soul and really see what emerges in that container.

Angus Ross (5m 2s):
Yeah. And, and I guess, you know, we're still touching on all the same themes and different ways and hearing different speakers, talk about how they touch into those seams of seeing another human being psychological innocence and being able to separate the human experience and the programming conditioning from who they are, their core and their essential nature. And I think that she really points to that in a really beautiful way. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (5m 24s):
And I was really moved when she shared about the girl that was living with her and how she navigated a very intense situation and, and the insight that she had as a result of that, I thought she spoke about it in a really grounded, practical way. And I don't want to go too much into it now because people are going to be hearing her share of edit, which is much more valuable than me talking about it. Don't

Angus Ross (5m 48s):
Give too much away about

Rohini Ross (5m 50s):
That. It's just, she'll do a better job, but just the power of how understanding that our experiences creative from within how powerful that is in very practical ways, even in very intense situations.

Angus Ross (6m 4s):
Yeah. I mean, and, and I'm honestly not going to, to give the game away in terms of what she gets into, but that is an intense situation to find yourself living with someone who, for all intents and purposes might have some sort of maniacal side, which, which actually reminds me of my days or our days in Maida Vale, where I certainly thought I was living with a maniac for a good portion of the time. But if I have that sort of clarity around this understanding back then, we might've had an entirely different experience. But I think that I probably gave as good as I got, but there was that one occasion where, and actually to be honest, what are you going to say?

Angus Ross (6m 49s):
Well, I think that, that on some level I might have been demonstrating some sort of unconscious competence competency in the way that I might have been showing up. Cause I think that we might have got into some kind of argument and I, I had a tendency to feel like, why don't you just need to go for a walk and clear my head, which seemed like a sensible thing to do, but you seem to take great umbrage at this on one particular Taishan occasion. When I went out for a walk to clear my head, to get away from the maniacal woman that I was living with and that when I came back, I couldn't get through the front door that the door wasn't locked, but I couldn't get through the front door.

Angus Ross (7m 33s):
And I don't know if I had to take a runup or what I had to do to sort of finally barge my way in. But eventually after some pushing and shoving, I did manage to get myself through the door to only discover that literally every sort of movable item in the apartment, every piece of furniture that could be mood was launched against the door. That for all intensive purposes, you had barricades barricaded me out of my own flat, our flat off left. And I think that I probably didn't react to that in the best of ways. I don't know, not, not in such an extreme way that you may be showing up at that point moment in time, but yes, had, I had some sort of sense of your state of mind and how at gone south and that I didn't really meet, need to make all kinds of meaning out of it and reacted.

Angus Ross (8m 24s):
It reacted to it in a way that was very judgmental and saw your psychological innocence. There may have been an entirely different experience.

Rohini Ross (8m 35s):
You mean, if you had recognized that my experience was coming from within me and that's why I was behaving the way that I did take

Angus Ross (8m 44s):
Yes, I would have had an, I would have hopefully got things on an even keel for myself in a much quicker way.

Rohini Ross (8m 51s):
And if I had had the understanding, I wouldn't have taken you needing to go take a walk. So personally, because I do remember that incident and I remember that I just felt really abandoned and hurt and angry that you were abandoning me. And so I behaved in the best way. I knew how,

Angus Ross (9m 13s):
Yes. How long did it take to barricade the front door? It's quite,

Rohini Ross (9m 19s):
I do remember there was quite a big piece of furniture that I managed to get in front of the door.

Angus Ross (9m 24s):
It was a lot, I remember there was a lot of furniture that was the, perhaps the most surprising element to it all.

Rohini Ross (9m 32s):
Well, I think this is a really good thing to share because if we can get beyond things like that, other people can too. Absolutely. And that this understanding we didn't have it at that time. And like I said, if I had understood that my internal reactivity was not coming from you, walking out to do something with true is probably a really good thing to do. Take a walk and let your mind clear. I would have understood that my experience would shift independent of what you did or didn't do. And I probably would have saved myself an awful lot of effort in terms of moving furniture around.

Angus Ross (10m 14s):
And even back then, you can look back and see how we, we always managed to stabilize. They were just extremes

Rohini Ross (10m 22s):
What I don't remember. And I don't know if you remember this. Do you remember what happened once you were able to get back into the apartment?

Angus Ross (10m 28s):
I don't recall. I think part of me was somewhat amused by the construction, but there was another part of me I'm just living with a maniac. And I think that that became a thought became more entrenched in my mind probably was not a helpful narrative to have running.

Rohini Ross (10m 50s):
And that's funny. We can't even remember what happened, but we always say naturally stabilize and got through it because here we are today. All right. So should we turn it over to Jacquie? Yes. Jacquie, thank you so much for being with us. And we've already had one wonderful interview with you that we did for our rewelded community membership. And we had such a great conversation with you that we thought we had to have you back for the podcast. So thank you so much for being with us.

Jacquie Moses (11m 25s):
We're inviting me back. It was a pleasure and fun. Last time we spoke.

Angus Ross (11m 29s):
Yeah. I always enjoy talking to you. So I'm thrilled that you agreed to do this podcast. Thank you.

Rohini Ross (11m 35s):
One of the reasons that we thought it would be great to have you on the podcast because the podcast focuses a lot on how the understanding that we share benefits relationships, you shared some really wonderful experiences that you've had in terms of how this understanding has helped you in your relationships in your life. But if you want to start by sharing a little bit about just your background, what you're up to in the world, and then we can go from there.

Jacquie Moses (12m 5s):
I thank you for that. Well, I'm, I'm I call myself a facilitator and I'm sharing the three principles, longevity, and just how life works. Just exploring that conversation. I love being in conversation with people and a coach. I'm a trained professional coach, but as you know, when you get into conversations with people and when you've been in this area of helping people and supporting people, you do much more than what you've been trained in because a lot of the workers it's really just based on who we're being and the work that we've done in ourselves.

Jacquie Moses (12m 48s):
I find that the, the deeper, my understanding is of who we are and who, you know, in the world and what makes us tick that deeper understanding of that. And actually what throws us off balance, right? But the deeper that understanding that I have for myself around that, the more that I, I feel more expanded to, to hold the space for others. So that's why I say that the, the, the job titles, that's what I do professionally. But beyond that, and I I've, I've had, I've had the opportunity to work with many different around the three principles.

Jacquie Moses (13m 29s):
For specifically, I came into that humidity in 20 12, 20 13, trained with one thought Marley, Marl, Gleason, Aaron Turner. And when the France was a one-year program, they used to have had lots of supervision, Elsie splits, or many of the, you know, first-generation teachers very, very fortunate. And then just being in that community, having opportunities to speak at different places, I've had the opportunity to speak it to the conferences and to travel and be around some of these great teachers and humble teachers as well, you know, and hang out with you two guys.

Jacquie Moses (14m 11s):
And two people love the people when we were in a sort of spreads. That was a great experience. I'm so glad that we got to go, cause I never know when I'm going to get back there again. But yeah, I've, I've, you know, prior to this principles, I've been as a coach working with different populations, working a lot in schools. And then when I came across, the principles just saw this as, wow, this just makes absolute sense. This, it just felt right that I needed to explore it and on a professional level, but also for myself, is that at the time I was struggling. So yeah.

Jacquie Moses (14m 51s):
And so, you know, that's been my journey ever since. And I then had the opportunity to work with about eight different populations, like in business extensively on the beyond recovery team, creating and building the programs that are currently, you know, a lot of the research was based on four and a half years. What to hundreds of hundreds of men in two different prisons set up two different programs with objective. One is in the rest of the team. You know, it was a great, great time working together in that. And we've got a lots of experience. We got to see what works, what doesn't work and, and also get to see that things happen even when you've got things planned, but the way you think it's going to go, especially for someone that was brand new to this, we just got on the job training on the job training, you know, and, and working in an environment like that.

Jacquie Moses (15m 49s):
New, anything can go wrong. Walk in is locked down. There's nobody, no classes you can walk in and nobody can leave the classroom that you're in because they're locked down. Cause they look, you know, cause they haven't got the numbers rights and there's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff going on and the men could come in at, come in at, you know, any mood in any place. So you just get the opportunity to just be with everything. And that's something that, you know, moving forward in my work and I'm delivering a program tomorrow is about holding the space for healing. You know, that's, that's what I, that's what I see that something that's what I do is holding a space for healing and holding the space for whatever arises.

Rohini Ross (16m 42s):
Yeah. And holding that space in the way that you're talking about it. It invites others to hold that space for themselves ultimately, and we don't have to consciously know what's going to emerge into that space because that space invites the healing to come in. And because that's our, all of our, how all of us have that natural imperative within us to heal, to settle, to connect with who we are, the truth of who we are, then that space is just the invitation for that to come forward and amazing things happen there. Whether you're in a prison environment, a relationship intensive environment, a school environment, a business environment.

Rohini Ross (17m 25s):
It doesn't really matter what population of people we're working with. It's amazing how we're all designed the same way to, to step into that space and step into more freedom.

Jacquie Moses (17m 37s):
I mean, when I say, I feel like I've been privileged to work, I threw myself into these opportunities. Some of them are paid and some of them were voluntary for many years. What I thought was, let me see how really what's in all these different environments. So when people ask me who you've talked to about what, what was 70 different people? What the CEOs of what two people in businesses, when they're going in aquatic. And I went in and got this team of tens of people. We actually went into work with our young people and, and the senior manager was around. She took over, there was sitting in to have someone sits in with us. And we're watching about 10 kids, young people in a hostel myself and a colleague.

Jacquie Moses (18m 21s):
And it was just quite informal, but we just sharing the principles for monitoring just that we, you know, that's, that's stiff. This person, you know, that was working with, had a lot of affiliation in his organization. And once it's a support them deeper and it just happened that we would just have conversations with them about this understanding about how we work, how we work, what, how they worked, how we all work, why, and that was so different for them. And they were really intrigued in how they were sharing so much with us while we've been working with them. For we've known some of these, they can stay in the hospital for two years. We've known some of them for over a year or longer.

Jacquie Moses (19m 2s):
And we work closely with them or we get on really well with them. But they're sharing things that they would have shared with us. This is on the first session, two and a half hours. And, and this is just over time, you know, that was getting around that this young people were settled in and it was in the evening when they came back from clinic, they moody or whatever. I give him this big bus to block hundreds of young beaten in it or houses and they'd come down and do it in a big kitchen. It was myself and Claire shoots and, and then the area manager who, so it was based on that at that office.

Jacquie Moses (19m 42s):
She stood in for one of the staff members that would be sitting in the background. And she was just like, what's this that you're doing so me about it. And she said, wow, she thought it was NLP. And she could talk, but an NSA. Yeah. It's like, this is like that. And after the session said, it's not quite like this, but she said, I've never seen him a lot. That's the way really open. And the sharing really deep things with some people that don't really know very well. And from that, she just S it just more away just not sitting in the background, she got breakthroughs. And then she said, I want this for my staff and my team and the team of 20 people, different teams.

Jacquie Moses (20m 26s):
And they were under a lot of scrutiny and a lot of stress, the team to produce a bigger results with less people and less resources and there other people's jobs at risk. And she was under a lot of pressure to load it onto them. So, and yeah, we had a major breakthroughs, I mean, just with them for two days and they weren't, it wasn't a mandate. They, you know, they have to come on with one of those trainings. I couldn't opt out, but you know, the first, the first day, no, it was just not what you guys talking about coming from the road.

Jacquie Moses (21m 14s):
And then just like the second day, it just, the breakthroughs is just enormous. And having personal conversations, private conversations with the person, that's a persona because she was like one of the key issues. Yeah. She had seen my not talking while she was there. So I, I took her out of the session while I continued with her and had a session with him. This is not what this is about. It's not about telling people what to do and what does she think? That's why they're not talking. And you're trying to tell them to talk. You know, we just had a, it was just, it was a beautiful thing.

Jacquie Moses (21m 55s):
She saw something of itself in that. And then we were able to go back into the room and she could hold a space for herself. We held the space for her and she performed the space for the group because she was really wanted to, she really wanted to support them. She really did. She was a very supportive person, but she, she was doing it with what she knew, what she knew at the time, which was pressurizing them, trying to encourage them, come on, we can do this. You know, you're not, you know, and maybe saying some things that are a bit discouraging and that was more of the same, why they weren't that motivated and wants to leave.

Jacquie Moses (22m 37s):
And she got to see that. But you know, when you're working with a team of people and the communication gets to a point where it's either going to break or they sit down and have honest conversations and see what's getting in the way so that as human beings, that they solve issues in the organization, in the teams that they've had for over seven years, I mean, the creativity just opened up about how they could solve their own things, the issues that were coming up for them in their teams and their structures, and then put a plan in place in, into today's.

Rohini Ross (23m 21s):
Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, yeah, really helping them to see what's really getting in the way and the role that state of mind plays in that. And then when that's visible, it's not something that's invisible that people are kind of at the mercy of when they start to see the role that their relationship with their thinking is playing in terms of creating their experience. It naturally those shifts that you're talking about and invites that creativity, that natural wisdom, common sense to come forward, like, and the way that you're saying those results can happen really fast. Doesn't have to take six months.

Rohini Ross (24m 1s):
It can happen in a couple of days. Sometimes the sustainability needs ongoing support, but, but those breakthroughs can happen very fast.

Jacquie Moses (24m 10s):
Yeah. So we did office ongoing support for three months afterwards, but like you said, unexpected results because we didn't know what to expect. I didn't know that there was these deep seated issues. So they kind of came out in session the first day. It felt like they didn't even want to be there. Most of them, like it just, it just was something that we're just doing to get through the training. And then the second day that it just opened up at the more that they felt comfortable, fast listen to enforcing that they were listened to and able to felt free to talk. Once we had a conversation with the boss and, and then after that, we so much opened up for people, a lot of honesty, but also a lot of creativity.

Jacquie Moses (25m 5s):
And these were people that work with other people. So they support people in their role. And that's the kind of people that I love to work with leaders and people that, to support others in their role or in society. And so for them to see that for themselves, they could see the benefit of this understanding for the young people. You know, there's no class doing our work with the young people and then the young people that then working with them and, you know, they're getting different messages. So it was great to have, you know, it happened in from the top down to the young people as well. And then also, because there are people that help people when we do those people, when they first went into those rooms or went into them for really meaningful reason or went into them because they love people.

Jacquie Moses (25m 59s):
They want to help people. They want to make a difference in the walls and what a lot of people in those roles, they kind of lose that swamp along the way. But I feel burnt out unappreciated devalued, very restricted in what they can and cannot do. And they lose that spark. That's what I call it. It's lovely to see that coming back a little bit,

Rohini Ross (26m 42s):
Bringing that spark back in is the that's people getting rewilding by that inner spark. It's so beautiful to see that and to see how people can get used to a normal, that doesn't have a lot of a liveliness in it. Not that it isn't there, but they're not really feeling it. And the difference that connecting with that inner liveliness makes to the quality of their lives, not just the, it's not really about what's produced from it. Yes. There's going to be the by-product of better results. But to me, the main event is that greater liveliness and inner freedom and peace of mind that they experience. And the rest is just the natural byproduct that comes from that.

Jacquie Moses (27m 25s):
I touched the agree. I've seen it so many times. I, what came to mind when you were speaking was we were running a session in the prison. It was a new prison. And so the people in that prison, hadn't all been sentenced. So there's a different category and a different way that people are a bit more sensible. If you were in one prison, you've got a sentence or been in prison for a while. And then you went to prison for their not sentence, sentence, a bit more anxiety, and you know, one in the mind. And what came to mind when you were speaking? I can't remember the young man's name was about 18 or 19.

Jacquie Moses (28m 4s):
Very quiet guy seemed like there was nothing there. You know, it's either vacant, they're kind of gray, vacant, and just being around us, just coming to our sessions and then hanging out with us. And we get a little job with our team to help out with little things. And he'd come a little bit earlier before the session started. I mean, it's like, it's not something just welcoming him. Yeah, absolutely. But whoa, who's this person. And I was wanting Taren to do certain things and see so many of those things happen, but for him to be such a soda, black maybe could have been very, very depressed at the time.

Jacquie Moses (28m 54s):
And then to see him kind of, and then the guy, the guy is kind of when you're in those groups, because we have a kind of, there's a level of trust between us and men and the group that they really start to value the space very, very quickly, very, very, very quickly because we don't have a lot of time with them. Sometimes it's, they're, they're doing an intensive two and a half days and that's maybe three and a half hours, a three hour session in the morning. Then they're back to the wing. Then a three hour session in the afternoon. That's what we did in that prison because we were, so it was so far away that was the most cost-effective and most efficient way to deliver the understanding that I was coming, traveling backward and forward from the different places that we live and to see people just lights up and have a space where they could be honest.

Jacquie Moses (29m 49s):
And also we forget prisons. Prisons are very noisy places, very, very noisy night and day, very noisy and manic and alarms going off for just lots going on and the juggling lots of different personalities. And just, just going back to what we spoke about earlier, holding the space so that they can have the space for themselves. So often it's to say, what makes you come back and we'd have a good banter with the guys and good old laugh. Sometimes Betty lands with them and they would say so peaceful here.

Jacquie Moses (30m 32s):
You know, what we got from that is it just allowed them to connect in that, so that peaceful place within themselves, because we would always remind them of pointing back to that. But this is available to you anywhere, even when it is mannequin. And they got to see that as well for themselves. And that's very, very, very quickly what fascinated us. We could have one session with them and that's, you know, we see them the next day and this, I was on the phone to my wife or my daughter last night, or one mob coaching around the principals, telling them, you know, how the mind works. And especially people that come into the sessions for many, many, many months, one prison, we were there for over four and a half years.

Jacquie Moses (31m 18s):
We had a presence there, you know, they become mentors. And then we started training them to be facilitators. So they start, self-regulating like stop supporting each other, running in groups, people that would never, ever doing stuff like this ever, they would be their high risk people. They would, some of them would be considered high risk, but it's like the understanding makes a huge difference to them that it changes their security levels. So that's something that, you know, when I say the magic of this understanding and the magic, well, I'm seeing more and more, it's the magic of the, I'll talk about the three principles, but if I go beyond the three principles and why didn't this conversation, it is what I'm seeing.

Jacquie Moses (32m 14s):
And seeing more and more and more is getting present to who we really are present to the presence within us, the enlightenment, the unlikeness within us, the, that we are not our thoughts and feelings in every moment, just getting more and more aware of that and having more space around optimal recently, humanist, but having a space around it, but we're not identified with it all the time.

Angus Ross (32m 57s):
It's lovely to talk to someone who has had such a, you know, obviously a profound experience within that community, working in the prison population and Rohingya. And I some while back now, before we came across this understanding, we were part of a volunteer group that will go in and work in a men's prison. We did it for about five years, but I feel like one of the strong directors that sort of came out of it for us as a volunteers, was that where with, you know, then there was this term that used we're spiritual beings. We are a spiritual being, having this human experience and kind of like if we went in holding that understanding and what were these inmates, what we were doing is what we were going in.

Angus Ross (33m 37s):
We weren't looking at the behavior that had ultimate, you know, ultimately they were incarcerated for, for whatever the behavior was. We're not, we don't have to light the behavior, but we're basically seeing their spiritual essence that divinity within them and relating to them at that level. And what was so profound was that this population, the people that we were working with here were coming, and we're not judging them at all. And they've spent their whole life being judged. So in terms of, I love the way that you're talking about holding that space. It was the same thing it was coming in and being present in that way. I'm with a spiritual being, having all these different kinds of human experiences. Sometimes those human experiences get us into all kinds of trouble, but we're relating to them, human, to human, and then the mask comes off and, and there's, there's just pure honesty and it's just such a beautiful space to create.

Angus Ross (34m 28s):
So I feel like, totally relate to what you're saying. I'm assuming that that's what you're pointing to. Yeah.

Jacquie Moses (34m 34s):
You know, if it, the, the understanding of the principles is what really got me into this work at what would that spend is outside of the understanding what, but one of the insights that I got and the team had is that no one's broken. Everyone has 100% innate wellbeing. That was what we put up, what we were working at. So that would, we put that up on the wall. This is what we're going to be looking at. Everyone has 100% innate wellbeing, and it may not look like that. And the other thing is, is that everything works from the inside out 100%.

Jacquie Moses (35m 18s):
And it looks like life is affecting us, but it's not, but that's the two things that we do work towards. So in different directions, we'd have conversations on and off topic, but we'd always print it back to this, stay in it, stay around that. And so try to be understanding I've been a coach and a trainer and working with people in many different ways, therapeutic ways as well. I don't appreciate box. I think if I'm honest, I was working with them because I thought that I could help them and to fix them.

Jacquie Moses (36m 4s):
So, so that's what I've been doing for my own self. I was working to be a better person to improve, to fix most of my personal development. 2013 years of that consistent has been, you know, have been, trying to face my self. And so when I read eyes that underneath all of this stuff that we do, all the thinking that everybody has the capacity, well, wellbeing is not something that we need to go and find. It is something that it's a level of understanding and awareness about who we are.

Jacquie Moses (36m 45s):
And now what we'll do in that conversation, wellbeing is who we are. Wellbeing is peace, contentment being comfortable with the uncomfortable, it's the resistance, it's everything from who we are as an expression of life. And so that's how I'm seeing this understanding for myself as I look beyond, you know, what beyond what, just the principles, but broaden it out to the bigger, into the bigger context of really what those points.

Jacquie Moses (37m 26s):
And so when you, when you step into a room or what with anybody, and know that they're okay, and what broken do not need you to fix them to not need me to fix them. You're with them differently. You'll be with them differently because you know that about yourself that no one needs to fix you. So, you know, you can go with a guy, I could go into a diet and meet a guy that's playing his eyes out, or I've gone to do one to ones, and I can just be with him knowing that he's okay. Or when, you know, screaming and having a big shout out and the flight's about to break out.

Jacquie Moses (38m 7s):
You can still be with them. Like, they're okay. There are instances that we, as a team could have reported and got those guys in a lot trouble, or we just saw them as they're just having a moment. Right. And we seen it, they were having a moment. Yeah. It looked like they were going to have a major fight. Yeah. But like I needed to press the green buzzer to call up the whole of the prison service come running in. And you know what? I just had to trust my gut feeling and those moments where some of my biggest teaching moments, because I just got to see that wellbeing is everywhere. Everybody's well, and there are moments when they don't look well, we enter them.

Jacquie Moses (38m 48s):
And if we just give it a little bit of space and love, you know, that we self-regulate forever quickly, you know, not times guys have done things or shout out things. And when they come back to the next day and say, miss, I'm sorry, I spoke about that in front of you. I didn't mean to, you know, just a bit in the region. And it's just like, Hey, it's not personal. It's not personal behavior. And there are some, sometimes when things need to be addressed head on, we're not saying you need things. What you're able to leave a little bit more space that Angus was saying, you start to be more comfortable when things don't go the way you think they go.

Jacquie Moses (39m 31s):
Well, you know, like, you know, I remember working in a school once and we had this group of 10 young kids that were going to be excluded. And the teacher brought myself in and Claire and Kenneth, we work on that project. And I remember saying, you know, thinking, gosh, you know, where are we going to go with this one? And I remember the first session they told us, like, you know, the store is called the prison on the hill, which was quite surprising to us. They put us next to the behavioral unit, which is a separate building because there were people in, I didn't catch this cause I did.

Jacquie Moses (40m 13s):
Cause there was stuff in there just in case the kids kicked off that could come in, come running in. Now we're oblivious to this same way that when most of us worked in the prison, we don't know what the guy's files are. We don't go into all that information. We don't want to know. All we know is that they're safe to be with us or someone else higher up the team in the team may have checked stuff, but that's not our focus. Prior to that, prior to this understanding, I would have wanted to know who are they? Am I going to be safe? You know, what have I done? You know, it would have been a bit of that just because I'm afraid.

Jacquie Moses (40m 53s):
Right? And so we went with these young people that the first session the teacher came running and to say to them, oh, she said they just left us like, well, miss those ladies are so nice. They're going to, I think they're going to understand us. One of them says that, gonna understand me. And she didn't like coming to school and we worked with them for 10 weeks consistently one hour, each week, more and more of them would come in early before the session because we used to do it just off while they were having their break would be there an hour before setting up. So when they were having break, they would come in and come in and have break your bus with, you know, we bought those snacks and things for them.

Jacquie Moses (41m 36s):
They would come in and have chats with us early, come in early, you know, we'd have the chairs set up and they would, well, you know, young people, they don't come into teachers during the breaks. They ain't got time for you. They want their break with their friends. Yeah. Cause this is an extra class, right? So a 50 minute, 55 minute class. And we, more of them will be coming, come in and we'd get, you know, we'll have the little biscuits and drinks and things set out for them. And it was just lovely to see that and they'd come in and they want to come and hug us. And it's so lovely. But then we would just have conversations about life. You know, what's going on this week, just check in.

Jacquie Moses (42m 19s):
And we just have conversations that made our humanness normal. I felt angry at that. Didn't pick me up, get, speak about it. That did pick her up the weekend. Maybe not got space for that. And our family took about four feet. And I remember that young person because I, she wouldn't join the circle. So we got it all set out the way we want it to be. She's at the back, not in the circle, directly chair out the circle. She won't come into the circle. Not I think before this understanding, that would have been like, oh, why didn't she join?

Jacquie Moses (43m 1s):
And what's wrong? I said, are you okay? Yeah. She didn't want to talk to us. Wasn't interested in once. And then I don't know when it happens. She was in a circle each week, a little bit closer. We'd always invite to join us. The woman looked at us from the side of her eye, not interested, what a sudden she was in the taut circle, talking very openly. That teacher, that the teacher told me. I went back after four months just to check in, see how they were doing this. And one-to-one and the pastorial manager said, what did you say to her? Particularly because she had detention for about a year.

Jacquie Moses (43m 41s):
She had so much attention. Her mom was in and out still. And mum was getting called every day. She was going to be the first person to go. I mean, they were literally just have the pens and the paper to send them people, referral units, these kids who other lost, lost leg. And they didn't want to do that either at school. And she said for, for, she had detention, she'd have not got detention again. So she started working with us about five weeks after three, four weeks was still getting it. Maybe four weeks after she says she does not have dissension. Again, I went back four months later and she had not got detention, successors, a different person, a better person, less unrecognizable, even the teachers are asking. And then moms rang up and thanked the school.

Jacquie Moses (44m 24s):
So, you know, you just don't know what's what's available, but allowing people to just be turned up the way they turn up has been one of the biggest, biggest learnings and expansions to me as someone that facilitates whatever's going to show up. Right? So it was that space because you just don't know what's going to show up. You don't know, you know, it could look like she's been most your rude, what, you know, you know, the mindset. And we just spoke to her and gave her always an opportunity to talk. And she did sometimes she did. Sometimes she didn't.

Jacquie Moses (45m 5s):
And I've been in so many groups where people are not conventional laying at the back of the classroom lane at the back of the class and in the prison look like they're not interested. And then all of a sudden they come and say, sorry, I didn't think you were listening. You were interested. I thought you would just have to have a three hour break. Right. So it's an incredible, see, so many of those things happen just, well, I just get, sometimes we just gotta leave people alone. You know, sometimes we can be so use so used to be people being on their case because they're not conventional.

Jacquie Moses (45m 49s):
And that little bit of space of being okay with what they're doing is not too disruptive. And then they get comfortable with being themselves.

Rohini Ross (46m 3s):
Yeah. They returned back to their natural state beautifully when given that space to do so.

Jacquie Moses (46m 8s):
We get comfortable with that.

Angus Ross (46m 29s):
I was just thinking, cause I, I, I teach a group every week at a, at a treatment center and I've really big. No, no. And we get kind of emails are sent out to encourage us, to make sure that everybody puts their cell phone down and is not accessible to them during the group. And there was one individual this week who, who kind of obviously is struggling, is having a bit of a hard time and kind of, sort of somewhat self isolated from the rest of the group. And they've got their cell phone out and I was thinking to myself, how am I going to, you know, how am I going to approach this? Because I do, I don't want to kind of make him feel even more self isolated. And then I could see my mind getting into the sort of like the judgment that he's got his cell phone out.

Angus Ross (47m 13s):
And it was kind of taking me out of the game and I'm like, you know what? Just let it go. They didn't, they didn't be himself. You know, if he needs to be somewhere else it's okay. And then what was so amazing towards the end of the group, he basically put his hand up and, and, and shared a reflection that just proved to me, he had listened to the whole thing from start to finish. It was proved conclusively by his sharing. And yet for me, I had, you know, initially I had made that judgment, oh, this guy has completely checked out. And obviously he hadn't.

Jacquie Moses (47m 43s):
Yeah. I love that. I love what you just said because we just don't know what people are hearing. And sometimes that destruction is what they need. And then the best part of being in a classroom, hearing people sharing brings up stuff for people, seeing so many people get triggered in groups twice what someone else was saying. I mean, you're triggered that they want to be violent or the other person talking about them. That's what their dad, who they caught a deadbeat. And then it triggers someone else who thinks he's a deadbeat dad, you know, it's, it's been amazing to see these things. But I think what you said Angus about checking in with ourselves is so important as well as the more, that's the most important part of whatever we're doing.

Jacquie Moses (48m 36s):
Hang on for me. Yeah. Okay. Yes. This, this person's distracted and they're doing what they're doing, but for me, I have no control sometimes over this. And sometimes I can say something, you know, I would always have a conversation with a person separately outside of the group. I'm not afraid to do that. But what I notice is the more my mind calms down or the more I check in with myself, so it will stay one for me, it's my judgments. The way I think it should be, or this is the way it will work. I've got no idea how it was because the summit things magic that has happened with so many amazing results happen.

Jacquie Moses (49m 19s):
That's got nothing to do with me or the team. Yes. It comes through us, but it's, we're not doing that. We couldn't imagine that we're competing and results that come through. So the more I check in with myself and notice I'm, I'm despair distracted, You know, soon as I, as soon as like, you know, I feel for her, cause I've got loads of adjustments.

Jacquie Moses (50m 3s):
Yeah. And the more I'm embracing that humanist of me, like, I, I, this the minute I see her or look at her, wherever I could be kinds of has, well, that taught me that once a judge control it, shouldn't be like this. As soon as I have eyes for her or you know, that part of me and I can bring myself, I can acknowledge that and bring myself back. We must survive to be the space. Sometimes that's ongoing. Like, you know, keep bringing back, keep bringing back. And then naturally it's just, you're just back. Or if not, you see, it's a really good point that you mentioned because we think that we are, we all sharing an understanding and we all sharing something that we know that's been beneficial to us, but really does it's it's this co-creation no, we're not them.

Jacquie Moses (51m 0s):
We ain't got any work. They're not doing anything without somebody else. And in a way I just saw an anger spoke about that, you know, their distress. I thought what the person's distracted and I've many times thought people have been distracted and programs is the reflection of ourselves, but really what's going on is you're distracted, I'm distracted. And I'm seeing that and just being kind and okay with that and bringing it, bringing your attention back in, bringing the attention back, bringing your attention back into the, into the space.

Jacquie Moses (51m 42s):
And also just the more kinder I am to myself, the more kinder and inexpensive and free I can be with other people. I have to put my mind. I noticed where I would have gone to put my energy on someone where I don't have to do it. Yeah. I may have done that subconsciously before and I don't always, always do it, but that's more and more that I'm keeping, keep seeing for myself. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (52m 12s):
That kindness piece, I think, is so important that we have that ability to be kind with ourselves in the process so that we can settle and then we show up completely differently for others when we're there. And I'm wondering also you mentioned in our previous conversation about how you've had girls in your home, living with you for periods of time and, and how helpful the understanding and seeing their health has been on that level. I wondered if you'd just give us a little bit of context about how that came about and, and what you've noticed in terms of supporting them.

Jacquie Moses (52m 48s):
Well, I think it all goes back to relationships really. Cause, you know, when I thought about this podcast, what my relationship with my partner, but I think everything we're talking about is our relationships to myself and <inaudible>. And so I don't have my own children and I always thought I could make a difference with like teenagers and, you know, I kind of got I'm okay with them the age group. And it was doing a lot of work in school, on I'm off of, you know, 50 years with going into one programs with colleagues in schools. And so I started working with a charity that supports young people back in, make homeless, or have made themselves homeless a little bit, which would be at home anymore.

Jacquie Moses (53m 35s):
So our homeless and I had my home and I had spare rooms and I thought, yeah, I could do it. So I started doing that over 20 years ago, 15 years ago. And then I had all the twins, young people live with me, I need to take care of. And then normally between the age of six 16, but normally the older than that 17 upwards to depending if they're ready to go or not. And there were different types of young people or, you know, different energies, some that feel like family others very distant or so.

Jacquie Moses (54m 23s):
Yeah, so that that's, that's why I stopped doing it this year. I've done it for like quite a long time and I don't have one or two girls. So when I came across the understanding, I was in the middle of my training at the time, I just remember thinking, you know, getting on one level, what this understanding is about. I really, this is one of my first breakthroughs was major ones for me was how do I am a person that was here? Haven't been here that long.

Jacquie Moses (55m 5s):
And she was very angry with me because I'd said to her, no, I can't do something. I won't go into it. But no, you know, I said, no. So when I got into the house, she texted me and asked me something. And I just said, well, when I get home and she sent me an abusive message and I just thought, I just said to him, no, no, you can't have the things she was asking for me. I don't have to give it to them. And it's just a simple thing, but I just don't know. I'm not going to have spoken to him about this. When I got home, she was screaming, shouting, escalated behavior, screaming, a shouting about what she's going to do, speaking to a friend. And the phone wants to burn my house down. But she's a bitch. She's this? I mean, I'm was needs to that.

Jacquie Moses (55m 45s):
I mean, she was really going over the top lovely girl, but you know, when she gets angry, she wasn't nice. I said that he'd been with me two weeks. So this is the first time I saw this and I know she'd been wallets out with her. Mom was a probation officer actually. So the behavior escalated, but what I remember feeling quite nervous thinking, goodness, all these things it's land, not, you know, you just don't need it as well. I've just been out my friends over for dinner and the drink celebration. Like I'll come home to this now. And then I remember feeling having lots of different feelings in a moment.

Jacquie Moses (56m 31s):
I was in my room listening to her because I was thinking, where's she going to go with this? So I want to burn a house down. I'm going to be swearing. I'm going to leave it from moving a front door open and looking out to sleep. What was that? Whoa. Normally I've not heard door, you know, can we have a word just confronted head on, you know what far as I'm concerned, this is not safe. My model, somewhere in the background, that'd be like, I'll do with this. I'm like, I've got to deal with this person now here and now. So she knows what she stands with me, you know? And I didn't, I just, I just felt my emotion and it was in Spence.

Jacquie Moses (57m 17s):
I got rage, fair confusion. And in a moment I remember I was standing in a certain place and it just, I just had an insight like, oh, I think she's causing all these feelings. All of these feedings I'm having, since, since the text, I think this young person is causing me to feel all these feelings and on the surface, it looks like it what she is not. And then I just started to notice the thinking that that was kind of in the background.

Jacquie Moses (57m 58s):
It was zoomed out a bit from the emotions and then start super angry. It was a bit afraid that while she was going to do a bit afraid of what, how I was going to handle the situation or me and her, we're going to speak to her, she's going to stock it and violent. And you know, I'm going to, you know, what am I going to have to do with kind of all, I'm going to have to be really harsh with that. You know, I didn't go, I did not at all, not normally I would not the door. That would be, that would be the first thing I do. Not the door chat, what you say, you're going to burn my house. You know, I would have done something like that. Calm that raise my voice to him. Well, didn't I, in that moment, I just got an insight that, wow, this is created experience.

Jacquie Moses (58m 45s):
Yes, she's doing stuff I don't want, but she's not causing me to feel this way. She cannot, I think it was fascinating for me to be with those feelings. And like I had to experiment with it in the moment because you know, the next day the feelings have gone that, well, they're not as intense. What at the moment, like, I mean, she was saying to myself, is she, this is like, you know, it was like an experiment. Like she can't wait. I mean, I could have given you a pounds and said she is.

Jacquie Moses (59m 25s):
And that's where the understanding from an intellectual understanding to a, an embodied experience, all alive experience in the moment she's in her room, she's not injecting her food experience. And so that was one of the biggest breakthroughs I got still was angry, still was annoyed. And then what I got from that was stayed up late and I didn't want to, so it was a mood, you know, that had some dealing with this situation in my home, which I don't like a disruptive home like that.

Jacquie Moses (1h 0m 6s):
I, I noticed that her mood started to change from this high energy and lifeness angry fuming to it just, it shifted. So she was speaking to our friend in the front and I had all these ideas about her friends. And there's mostly kids that are so droughts and do whatever because I started on the phone and the fence that's when you were at holder, that lady's really nice to you and you were acting that you need to calm down. So that broke one of my drama thoughts I was having, but he was going to come and join her. That's why I started to see like the fantasy that I had in my mind, escalation of it.

Jacquie Moses (1h 0m 47s):
She calmed down, she stayed in the bed in the morning, worked a little job, couple of days or a bit uncomfortable. And normally the case worker would come fly. And then, because I would push in, you know, news mites force, like you've got to come today and I had a good relationship with her. She couldn't make it. So I had two days to sit in with energy as well. And then she came on the third day, the case work and it was just revelationary for me just to see that God, you can be, when it, for me, what I got from that was this urgent state or feeling is not an indication.

Jacquie Moses (1h 1m 28s):
I have to do something. I thought that meant we needed to be warmed and careful something's not right. And I got to see that. No, it just means that showed me what state of mind I am and what she's in. And I just sort of got to see that if I went to knock on her door, everything could have happened. I've never had any major escalations where the men or the members talking to themselves about what it could have ended up with different way out. Because why just got to see from that was all in our states of wines. In the moment she was in a state of mind, I was in my state of mind or feeling frustrated and blaming her.

Jacquie Moses (1h 2m 9s):
She's blaming me. And then within hours, I mean, it was a long night. What were the hours? Her state of mind changes my state of mind changes. I got to sleep with her in my house, two days later, we have a conversation where everybody's in a different space. I've got more space for myself and for her. And we have constructive conversation. Normally she would be, I would have said she needs to go. That's what I was staying in the night. I'm not going to be able to work with that. You know, I can't work with someone that would want to burn my house down or, you know, I'm just not, I don't know why, but three days later I said that to her.

Jacquie Moses (1h 2m 53s):
I want to know if, you know, do you want to leave? She said, no. I just say all the things when I'm upset or angry. I just say things. I don't mean it. Well, I just thought to myself, we'll do really most of the things that we don't mean. I mean, I know there was serious things before that. I wouldn't take that with a footnote. She's dangerous just, and then I just made a decision in the moment and that's the other thing that I got was to not base everything on the past. Like, this is what I would have done, or this is why should do in the moment. I just said, okay, let's keep going forward. Continue to stay here. And we'll just go from there. And she stayed a week, further six months or a bit longer.

Jacquie Moses (1h 3m 37s):
But the biggest thing was she was cooking some food and she asked me, could I help make a Caribbean Curry? And she was Asian and she wants to, she said, I'm not Asian for my mom, but I wanted to use different spices or wasn't okay. So I'm just showing her something. And she said, we're at the cooker together. And she said, Jacquie, I just want to say something. She said, I'm really, really sorry for the last, when she first came to deliverable, I was really rude and disrespectful and I want to apologize, oh, shucks. We both cried together and have a little cry.

Jacquie Moses (1h 4m 19s):
She said, I like to live in who you really call. You're just laid back. And her house is calm. The house is calm, man. You know, your house, you don't realize what we're facilitating in our spaces or just from who we're being. You know, I, I really just got to see that we can jump and judge people and we just have no idea. We're just, we're just making things up about what we think they are or who they're going to be in the future. And it's really helped me with my own family, you know, with my own younger people in my family, escalating thoughts about what's going to happen to them, what they're going to, you know, and then just being with them for the day and just saying, these are all my thoughts about what's going to happen.

Jacquie Moses (1h 5m 6s):
I have no idea what's going to happens for me when that allows some at another human being. And so it's really helped me to understand and just catching myself and noticing when mind is creating dramas and the future. But it's just an, it's just thinking in the moment about something that's been really, really helpful in catching myself. I also catch the behavior that could go along with that, you know, that could go along with, or they're going to be like, this need to control the need to do this. You need to do that, you know, and then you're able, and then I'm able to be more present with my nephew or someone to have a conversation with them.

Jacquie Moses (1h 5m 53s):
That would have been a conversation with my head food about present.

Rohini Ross (1h 6m 14s):
Thank you so much for sharing that example, I felt so moved by the arc of how your relationship went with that young woman, but you could see how in, in the heat of the moment, if you had gone with your conditioned response, how that would just be adding fuel to that fire and who knows where that could have got escalated to with someone that's that dysregulated and hurting and suffering and, and your ability to see the truth of what you've been teaching. We all have innate wellbeing inside of us and experiences 100% created from the inside out, but to see that in the moment and to live it, like, I think that's, what's so important about the understanding is that it's not an intellectual understanding.

Rohini Ross (1h 6m 58s):
It has to be embodied in the way that you're talking about it. And I think for most of us, it does start off as a nice idea. Oh yeah. I feel my thinking, oh, I'm not impacted by somebody else. I'm feeling my, my own thoughts, but it's in those moments like you're describing where the feelings are so intense, that it can be much harder to see the truth of it and to know the truth of it. And that's the human learning curve. I'm not saying I see that all the time in an, in an experiential way. But when we do in those moments, like you're saying how transformative that is for ourselves, and then the results are the result of that inner transformation.

Rohini Ross (1h 7m 41s):
That is just the ripple effect of that. But I think that that is just a beautiful example where, you know, you ask a hundred people, they would all tell you, yes, she's causing you to feel the way you're feeling like nobody would have argued with you on most people would not argue with you on that. And that's what we're all up against is the conditioning that we've been exposed to about where experience comes from the, the general consensus in society is that we are feeling what's happening outside of us, not feeling what we're identifying within ourselves. And then in an example like that, it's like, well, of course, look at the things that are being said, of course your experiences coming from those words. But none of that is happening in that moment.

Rohini Ross (1h 8m 23s):
You're, you're living like crusading in the future reality that your mind has made up. And I think that's just so fundamental for all of us, for our own peace of mind and inner freedom to just take that in what you're saying and to see how it applies to our own lives and the difference that that makes when we're able to, to feel the truth of that, because it's freeing and healing. It's so powerful.

Jacquie Moses (1h 8m 51s):
I love what you just said. The condition I'm seeing that more and more, it's all over my conditioning, my conditioning around what it was doing in my home was to have a good relationship with the young people by the step to align, or even as some of my training, other training, that's two addresses there and then great one. And I was applauded for that because I was someone that could do with confrontation. And I could always say, you're so good at it. You do it. So commonly say, well, and I felt really good that I was someone that could do with it there. And then, and then I just saw that that was just, it didn't have to be done that way.

Jacquie Moses (1h 9m 38s):
And, and I wasn't given any, there was a part of me that would have thought that they're going to walk, put, she's done, walk all over me. I don't keep this boundary, this boundary that, you know, I've got to teach straighten, but I'd like to also mention that after some time she was a very smart girl, very, very resourceful, got a job straight away. And she was doing some other things on the side that we would call it in little things. Maybe I used to hear them on the phone. She wasn't telling me to say, I do little things that she was doing and who she was hanging out with, but something really beautiful happened. She just said to me, oh, I'm going to be leaving London.

Jacquie Moses (1h 10m 18s):
I'm going to live with my aunt. I don't want to do this anymore. Don't slack. And just that, that was another thing that you just give people the right environment. And she'd ask me sometimes she would get quite annoyed with friends or people and say, I'm going to go out. I'm going to do this. And I often had said to her, you know, otherwise was telling how smart and why she is. And you know, this is decisions she can make. And, and the, and the Abigail's as well. I always do that with them, but also always pointing back to their wisdom. I'm the abusee, you know, girls like to know, they look good, give them a confidence boost around that.

Jacquie Moses (1h 11m 1s):
You know, they love that and just sending them how smart they were. And I was also there. But the other thing is, you know, I know it's, I've never taught them the principles and not directly, or, or an understanding how the mind works. Why, what I would say to them is when they were really angry, I was going to go and do some it's silly is safe food. And now, yeah, don't send that text yet. That wasn't it because you can't get rid of that text, give it, give it a couple of asks, but one of your friends in that let's see how you feel some more old, you know, always modern, you know, think about it. You know, don't put yourself in any problems and cause problems for yourself, the album, last thing, you know, good to have an effect when in there, and, you know, even with some of the young people that I've had challenges with will have had challenging behavior that is so useful to see the right environment, all of them, things just change naturally, but wisdom and settlements do where to live, you know, and I keep my home very safe and calm.

Jacquie Moses (1h 12m 20s):
And I want to say to them this on whatever dramas that you've got going on, don't bring it home. If you can bring it home, this is your sanctuary. That's why I was kind of encouraging to just saturate what, nice home, lovely house to live in and bring your good friends that you trust. Don't bring any drama friends. If you can encourage them to know that it's okay to have a safe space. And that is for you and that's peaceful.

Rohini Ross (1h 12m 48s):
Yeah. That's so healing. Can we go back to that point you made, because I think it's a really a key piece for people to understand about not feeling like a doormat because you didn't set the boundary right away and you didn't hold that line because I do think that sometimes people misunderstand what we're saying about seeing psychological innocence and, and having compassion as well. Then I'm just going to be taken advantage of I'm just going to be walked all over. So would you share a little bit more about what you've seen around that?

Jacquie Moses (1h 13m 21s):
Yeah. As I said, the, and I I've heard that before as well from other people that they feel like, you know, if they have this approach that they are going to be walked over and it's not the case. And I can, I, I know that for myself and from the environments I've worked in, what it helped me to do was to notice my conditioning. As you mentioned, you're aware of it because you're doing things that you've done all your life and you think that's the right way to do it works.

Jacquie Moses (1h 14m 2s):
And so the understanding for me seeing my health and the other person's health gives me more freedom to make the right choices and say the right things. When a co-op in my condition, it's only going one way. And that's the way that I know, and that I know that works. I've got strong personality. So, you know, and if I'm dealing with another person with a strong personality, it's not going to be <inaudible> to the person. And I don't have those kinds of things. Well, you know, it can feel like it's my way. And I've had people say that to me before.

Jacquie Moses (1h 14m 43s):
It was like, it's, you know, it's just your opinion. I'm open to everybody's opinion. I'm going to say mine. Well, I really got to see with this understanding is being present to what's going on for me, what's going through you. I'm making stuff. What don't you know about this person? And I'm creating a movement who they are, you know, and it could look like this is how they are, but really they haven't done the action that I've think they're coming to do. I'm thinking they're going to do something. Okay. You have a person give the examples of good examples. Go back to the young person in the moment, moment to moment for all these different scenarios that are going to happen.

Jacquie Moses (1h 15m 31s):
I'm not even thinking about much. I'm not thinking about conditioning. I'm thinking what's got to be done in action. I mean, in my mind, I'm toying with, should I go and do it? And then I've got the insights. So that stopped me in my tracks. I stayed, I stayed awake and aware to notice what she was doing. Do you think I'm going to go to sleep with that quick, that kind of, that kind of talk next door? Not to burn my house down? No, I'm not saying just on and give up what happened. Well, I got to check myself for five minutes, 10 minutes. Just keep reinventing myself with impulses.

Jacquie Moses (1h 16m 13s):
I wanted to go and do what they normally do. Yeah. And there was, and there was so much there that I had to be to be with it. It was so uncomfortable. I really got to see that it wasn't her causing that. That was an, and I'm always experiment with this even to this day. Right? So that's the embodied experience. When we get to see what's going on for us, it looked like it was about her. Now, the next day I was aware of what was going on. We had a meeting and very straight conversations were had in those meetings.

Jacquie Moses (1h 16m 56s):
Like, you're not there. If you're going to come, if you're, I said to her, listen, we're going to let you live in with a new person. And my partner, there are going to be, things are going to be said, but you may not like, like, you know what? I can tell your boss because we left it open and he didn't leave it like that. Or, you know, whatever it could be. I don't put a lot of demands on them, but the two minute areas, you know, and I said, if you're going to flip off like this, every time that happens, we need to know where we stand and it's. And if this is the right environment for you, that's a straight conversation. Still were boundaries are still checking out what's going on?

Jacquie Moses (1h 17m 39s):
No, I don't think so. What I find what happens is they're more aware than I am of myself and what's being created in the moment or even afterwards, if sometimes I might notice that afterwards, I'm able to have able to not be so reactive and then not being so reactive, not all the time, but not being so reactive. There's just a gap, a bit of space where it opens up to different choices about what is going to be said.

Jacquie Moses (1h 18m 19s):
And what's not going to be said, opens up from diving one way to potentially lots of different options of what could be said. I don't know what's going to be said, but then it's coming from a different place because I know it's about me. Not that. So, you know, in terms of boundaries in October, a lot of what is being walked over. I mean, it is not taking care of ourselves or having boundaries that we think people are upgrading or not getting our needs met.

Jacquie Moses (1h 19m 5s):
And I just see that as an opportunity to look at what's going on for ourselves. If, if that's, if that is happening in most of most of what I, when I hear people say, well, this might happen. Or when I think, oh right. If I don't do this, this is going to happen. I'm making it up in the moment. I don't know what's going to happen. Really. I don't, I mean, it can convince him like 110% that was possible, but this is going to happen. But the more I experiment with it, it just comes to that every very weirdly. And we've been into them.

Jacquie Moses (1h 19m 45s):
And even in, you know, working in environments or time environments where we've had amazing results, but there been a lot of times when it's been going on the edge with different people and different groups, the more rounded, grounded in this under grounded and nine, that everybody's well, and there's something beyond myself and everybody else that is powering what's going on right now is taken care of what's going on right now. I'm more grounded in the, I am the more confident I am to allow things to unfold and know that I am capable and fully results to deal with things in any moment.

Jacquie Moses (1h 20m 37s):
So my boundaries don't have to be so hard and tight. Now this fight strict and bit like this and less like that, just so much. Yes. It feels like I'm a lot softer and on airy-fairy, but have very clear boundaries, but I don't hold them. I don't walk with them all the time. Now, something I know I'm fully endorsed and sort of resource in any given moment, I can deal with any situation. And I know that anybody can do that because I've seen them do it from kids to adults. Even without this understanding, we see it happening in the world all the time.

Jacquie Moses (1h 21m 17s):
This understanding is not, it is, it's a description of what is happening to us as human beings and how they're unfolding and how we're being fully resist by life and nature. And so, yeah, the farm, the nest, the nest, the nest, the nest I'm I'm in there trying to control it. Things play out in ways that I could never imagine. And in a bed in a way for what's for everybody, not just me, Yeah. Manipulate or make it work a certain way.

Jacquie Moses (1h 21m 57s):
That's for my benefit or for my, for me to feel safe or okay. And I'm not saying I don't do that, but the less I do that, especially in spaces where I'm working with people more better, everybody benefits from that in my life as well. And then there's more love as well and more love and freedom to do with

Rohini Ross (1h 22m 33s):
What we're talking about is describing what's already there. And everybody has that innate wellbeing and peace inside of themselves. They might talk about it differently, but it that's, what's true. And we all have the capacity to feel that more deeply and open to that more fully and let go of the conditioning that has us listened to limiting beliefs that tell us something different.

Jacquie Moses (1h 23m 3s):
Yeah. And what's really is I always, when I'm with people and working with people as well, I just see them as they could be me, could be my brother. It could be my neighbor's son. If it could be your child, your child's can you, you know, I don't feel that in those situations it's I suppose I didn't see it until over the last couple of years, the less separate, I think I am sending the better things, just unfold and people share things, notice stuff already.

Jacquie Moses (1h 23m 49s):
They know this stuff, you know, you taught with some couple of young people for a little wall, we'll tell you about James and their vibes and what they want for themselves and the paramount, what they want. Yeah. They might be being violent street or certain things that might be what might be deemed as social behavior. But then you could then work with a CEO or someone, a senior leader, and they've got their own concerns. Might they might show up in a different way, but they've got their own concerns and insecurities. And I love this work because what I find what's really here for this, we don't have to hide this stuff anymore.

Jacquie Moses (1h 24m 35s):
We're in a world where we walk around hiding things and I love that I can get to work with someone and I haven't even asked them, but they feel constantly to share some of their insecurities. And that could be someone that's a comprehensive in the world, you know, managing lots of things. And they'll say, you know what, Jacquie? And then they could just relate to what you're saying. You know, we have to bring some of our selves into the conversation. Like we can't talk about, I love what you guys do, you know, in a relationship. And I think why it's so successful is because you're open and honest about that. And when we're not being like the note, we know it's a lesson and talk about, this is what we do, or this is what happens to us conversations completely different.

Angus Ross (1h 25m 31s):
I have so many reflections and, and I, I do feel like, you know, it's so easy to go through life. And, and certainly for myself feeling like I had to sort of like have this sort of safe, what mask that I wore that would keep me comfortable in the world that I lived in. And I think that so much of this work is, is, is like kind of taken off our own masks. So the other person could feel like they can be comfortable doing that too. And then there's such relief and such a sense of liberation that, wow, you know what, it's okay to be me. And just to show up from that place. And that place alone is that's. I think the, all the leverages it's like, you know, that's where the magic happens when we can finally take off that mask and be who exactly who we are comfortable in our own skin, which is how we are, you know, I'm sure we were set up to be that way.

Angus Ross (1h 26m 23s):
And we have this beautiful GPS. That's always, you know, whatever we're going to, you know, however, we're going to define that is that our, is that our intuition is that our instincts it's kind of, it's always a guiding force.

Jacquie Moses (1h 26m 37s):
Yeah. I love that because I think people are just hungry for it, hungry and, and, and, and be ourselves. And, you know, when you can go with, go be with someone that's distressed, for whatever reason, that is sometimes right. Good reasons to be distressed and sometimes, you know, less so, but they're distressing. And that's how they feel. I mean, you can just be with them and you know, I've been into, you know, when, especially when you're running a program and someone doesn't show up, we normally and look for them, send someone, or we going to look for them for the session starts.

Jacquie Moses (1h 27m 18s):
If we saw there, might've been a bit, what be the night before, or I had a lot going on, we'll have a conversation to have that night. You know, we go see them. I'm not coming. I can't be in a group. You know, I'm upset, I'm upset. And then I might start crying and telling you about their life and what they've lost. And their wives just met them and lost all their houses and because of their case, and we just sit with them and or someone else. So even needing meeting that business and all the things they worried about losing things change when a little worried about losing things, right? If things change and then you can just say to them, listen, I'm going to wait for you or come to the group, come to the group.

Jacquie Moses (1h 28m 4s):
This is when you need to be today. We're not here next week, come to the group and just be with a group. This is what this is. This is what we're talking about. Life real life stuff, come and be with us, be in the group, come and get the support, hang out and laugh and cry. And you need support because you know, certain environments climates so often to see other men crying and upset and distress, and they're there for them and government. And that doesn't happen in, in those environments have to get a taste of that. And then they just come alive. Like, you know, it's okay to, it's okay to be like this. So they let it out in the group choir, and then they don't need to go hit someone because they jumped in line before dinner.

Jacquie Moses (1h 28m 50s):
One officer that's come to sell them something. And then they take off a new officer or whatever. I think that's the value of having those spaces that we created as a team. And, and just as an individual is just being okay with where they were at. Because, because you can relate,

Rohini Ross (1h 29m 13s):
Absolutely

Jacquie Moses (1h 29m 14s):
Can relate to distressing. It must be dismissive. Or when you felt distressed about things, you know, and if sometimes you want to push people away, really what you need is to be around people. And sometimes, sometimes I may not set up for group and sometimes they might come and be like, you give one little knots the night before or not. And that's it. And the back in group, and that's it just on those normal wanting to share whatever they want to share. And we don't bring up anything and they share what they want to share. And they might say, when he came to the south today or Jacquie and sat down with us and we might share what happened and they may not.

Jacquie Moses (1h 30m 1s):
It's like family, it's more like family. We know we don't share all of our things, which, which rain not to share thing here too. They see, you can get groomed, you can get this. You just can't work like that. But you know, even in a group with young people, and they're saying, I felt really angry, I feel anxious. And he said, yeah, I feel anxious this morning. I've got really lost driving here. And I got anxious. I was not going to be onsite. And then it's like, it's like, it just like, just get like as normal. Yes. Every feeling that you have. No, one's told them that I feel shame and stupid for having those feelings at 12 and 13 years old.

Jacquie Moses (1h 30m 47s):
So the point that they're so confused about it, it's messing up their behavior that they've got to get taken out of school. And then when they get to regulate that thing, oh, okay. You feel like that as well. And you all these ladies that come in just the same. And I think that's when you just want to hock everybody and you know, we, we finished programs and you know, there's so much love presence. Yeah. What personal love, like loving some of them like apartment, but now all of humanity, love of human beings and the beautifulness about them when they feel understood and heard and, and up in a loss of space to, just to just be okay.

Jacquie Moses (1h 31m 39s):
Yeah.

Rohini Ross (1h 31m 40s):
Yeah. Jacquie, that's how I feel this space has been. And that we've been with you today, that, that feeling of that impersonal love of just seeing the love, that is who we all are and feeling that more deeply, I feel like you've brought that to the space with us. So thank you so much.

Jacquie Moses (1h 31m 56s):
Thank you for the opportunity. And you're Britain space for this. It just feels that we just fall into.

Angus Ross (1h 32m 9s):
Yeah. Jacquie, thank you so much. So I feel like this was a beautiful conversation.

Rohini Ross (1h 32m 19s):
Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross (1h 32m 30s):
iTunes reviews. We'll steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross (1h 32m 35s):
If you would like to learn more about our work and our online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewilders.org.

Angus Ross (1h 32m 44s):
Thanks for listening. Join us next.