EP43 Becs Steele: The Freedom of Releasing Expectations

We spoke with Rewilding Guide and Registered Nutritional Therapist, Becs Steele, about her tumultuous experiences with pregnancy, due to a rare genetic disease, and how looking back she can see now that her expectations about what her life was supposed to be like were adding to her anxiety. This exacerbated her health issues. During the years of trying for a second child, Becs suffered from several health conditions including autoimmune thyroid, endometriosis, rosacea, and anxiety. She now pinpoints them as symptoms of the stress she was going through. 

Upon learning about the understanding behind the Rewilding metaphor, Becs saw that expectations about life are really just made up. And yet she recognizes that she and so many others can get so stuck on these expectations and obsess about reaching them. For Becs, reaching her goal meant enduring very traumatic pregnancies, which she does not regret at all as she now has two beautiful children. But reflecting on her experience, she can see now how she was not aware earlier that she was going to be OK regardless of outcomes. 

Becs also reflects with us about how stuck we get when we try to control our experience and our emotions. If we can soften around our feelings, and make space for them, they move through us more gracefully than when we attempt to stuff them down. This goes hand in hand with not beating ourselves up for not being "spiritual enough" or using spirituality as a measuring stick to beat ourselves up with. Instead, we can be with the full breadth of the human experience, and allow our grief to heal naturally.

Show Notes
Translocation: a type of chromosomal abnormality in which a chromosome breaks and a portion of it attaches to a different chromosome. This can result in stillbirths or severe disabilities.
Bird by Bird: a documentary about Anne Lamott where she beautifully describes how being open to grief doesn't mean we won't have a scar, but it will heal cleanly.

Becs Steele helps people who experience anxiety or depression to have more personal freedom in body, mind, and spirit.  As a registered Nutritional Therapist, she is constantly discovering the power of the mind and body connection. She brings clients to their present moment experience to uncover what is keeping them stuck.  Using nutrition in combination with coaching she witnesses clients have big shifts in their bodies and minds.

Angus Ross & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate a private couples' intensives retreat program that rewilds relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. Read Rohini's latest blog.

Episode 43 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.

Transcript

Angus Ross (4s):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross (13s):
This is episode number 43 an interview with Becs Steele.

Becs Steele (18s):
I can be happy with whatever my life circumstances are.

Angus Ross (22s):
The themes that really pop out for me are how we build up our expectations and this tendency to worry that they're not going to be fulfilled

Becs Steele (32s):
Getting pregnant for me. So this is a blessing because I know a lot of women also suffer with the fact that,

Rohini Ross (39s):
And I think that that is really everything that the rewilding is about is through embracing the fullness of life, the fullness of who we are.

Becs Steele (48s):
Yeah. I've had moments where I'm in near immediacy of life.

Rohini Ross (52s):
When we look at the intellect, how we can dive into our intellectual processing and it does feel like amaze when we're caught up in that.

Angus Ross (1m 0s):
So courageous knowing that what you're up against, and now you have two beautiful children as a result of that tenacity and that courage

Becs Steele (1m 8s):
It's realizing that all we have is, is now and from the now space, our possibilities

Angus Ross (1m 19s):
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross

Rohini Ross (1m 24s):
And me Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross (1m 25s):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross (1m 29s):
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded.

Angus Ross (1m 37s):
Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross (1m 51s):
We are really grateful to have Becs Steele as our guest today. And Becs is a real Wilder guide and integrative coach and Becs was part of the first group that went through the rear welder guy training with me last year. And we're just about to start our second training with the two of us together. I'm looking forward to it.

Angus Ross (2m 8s):
It's exciting.

Rohini Ross (2m 9s):
And so bags helps people who experience anxiety, depression to have more freedom in their body, mind and spirit. In addition to her coaching, she's also a registered nutritional therapist. And so she works with the body mind connection and really helps people to come into the present moment and experience more deeply. What is getting in the way of them feeling more of that personal peace and freedom using both nutrition and coaching. I like that

Angus Ross (2m 39s):
More holistic approach to coaching. I'd like to have those strings to my bow. Well, anyway, so in today's episode, Becs is going to share with us, her experience with loss and difficulties, conceiving children due to a genetic condition that our husband has. Yes. It's

Rohini Ross (2m 60s):
A very brave courageous act for her to come on to the podcast she reached out because she felt it would be important to share her story, but she also had a fair amount of trepidation trepidation about talking about it. And so I really acknowledge her for her courage and strength of heart and willingness to be of service and sharing in this way.

Angus Ross (3m 23s):
Yeah. And, and it really is a story of courage and resilience. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (3m 27s):
And, and what's going to get revealed in the podcast. You'll hear how her journey really helped her to get a deeper understanding within herself and to see how thought plays a role in creating her experience as seeing the role of thought was really impactful in helping her to not be dominated by her anxiety so that she could live life more in a state of peace, even when circumstances were challenging. And she really brings that depth of understanding into the work that she does now,

Angus Ross (4m 3s):
When we do one of these interviews and you hear someone's story and someone's experience, you feel struck by the themes that are always so universal, even with a story in its individual content terms of the experience that that individual has gone through. You, you hear this story, you hit backstory and you think, wow, this is such high stakes. And yet it's all the same themes. And I guess the themes that really pop out for me are how we build up our expectations. And then with those expectations comes this tendency to worry that they're not going to be fulfilled.

Angus Ross (4m 48s):
And in that worry about them not being fulfilled, we go into the negative future fantasy and that's where we would get caught up. So what she went through is, you know, I wouldn't want anyone to go through that and, and, and a very high stakes game, but it's the same, it's the same themes that you come up against again and again, again, and for the people that we've interviewed, very similar story, and yet very unique and individual.

Rohini Ross (5m 14s):
Yeah. I agree that it's universal, that when we become attached to expectations and then those expectations aren't met that we end up suffering. And that was one of the beautiful things that Beck shared. And what she saw through this is that her peace of mind was actually not about her meeting her expectations. That that actually was something that resides within her and that she was able to see that and experience that and drop into that, even though she eventually did meet her expectations, but it was actually the surrender that happened beforehand. That was a really powerful,

Angus Ross (5m 54s):
Yeah. And with the benefit of hindsight, one might say to, you know, what I kind of, I learnt all these things naturally through going through this experience and probably we might say to ourselves, yeah. And I would, you know, now with the benefit of hindsight probably have suffered far less, but nevertheless, she got to a point where she could realize that, yeah, she should not trust her thinking in this situation. It's not going to be any kind of ally to me moving forward. I have to sort of as much as for as much as possible live in the moment and not give into the fear that the, the, the thinking around not fulfilling those expectations might be able to trauma.

Rohini Ross (6m 37s):
And I think as you're saying, that's a good learning for all of us to pay attention to. Yeah.

Angus Ross (6m 43s):
Without doubt.

Rohini Ross (6m 45s):
One of the other themes that is universal that stood out to me was around how we can take a beautiful and profound, spiritual understanding, and then use it as a stick to beat ourselves up with. And I know I've done this, I'm sure plenty of people do it, but really if we look to how sneaky our conditioning can be, how sneaky the ego is it so easily, co-ops these really beautiful ideas and then turns them as ways that against ourselves as ways to criticize ourselves.

Rohini Ross (7m 27s):
And I think that was something that backs highlighted and something that's worthwhile for all of us to be mindful around that anything that's truly spiritual is going to have a loving feeling. And so if we're judging ourselves for not being present or critical of ourselves, because we've experienced Mo an emotion that isn't what we think is spiritual, then that's not our spirituality. That's not our true nature talking to us. That's just our conditioning. And it's really helpful to be able to separate the two and make the distinction. Yeah.

Angus Ross (8m 7s):
Yeah. And, and judging ourselves for not being spiritual enough. It's, it's interesting to reflect on it in that way, because with this, this feeling that we have some sort of insight that maybe in our minds puts us in a, an, a loftier station in life, on a spiritual level, then we can create a whole bunch of standards and expectations around that, that then we can have this checklist. It's like, oh, we ticking off the boxes. And if we're not, then somehow we're lacking or somehow we haven't learnt enough. And that's another way that we do and can't beat ourselves up and it's, so it go in its nature and, and the better vantage point is just see it for what it is.

Angus Ross (8m 49s):
It's just a whole bunch of thinking around those standards and expectations that just sets up for, for suffering Ultima.

Rohini Ross (8m 58s):
Yeah. Our true nature is never going to be beating ourselves up.

Angus Ross (9m 3s):
Thank goodness.

Rohini Ross (9m 5s):
And the final theme that jumped out at me as well, that's on the more universal side is how as humans, we can become fearful of our emotional experience and then try to control our emotional experience out of that fear and try not to feel it use all kinds of distraction or intellectual ways to try and create a sense of separation from it. And really the freedom of rewilding is to recognize the health in the entire range of the emotional experience. And simply being Oakland to our emotional experience is healing.

Rohini Ross (9m 45s):
And it doesn't mean that we are going to act from those feelings states, but it is incredibly powerful to simply be able to be present to what arises within us on the thought and feeling level. And there's a natural stabilizing impact from that. That is all we need.

Angus Ross (10m 8s):
Yeah. And, and with emotions, it's interesting to sort of observe them in a way where it's just a feedback system and we have a tendency to sort of make all kinds of meaning or want to make all kinds of meaning to try and sort of analyze and figure out when all it's really doing is just suggesting that, you know, there's something up something in our system that's gone out of balance inside of whack and just trust that our whole system, our, the intelligence in the design, as it were, is set up to reestablish that equilibrium. It's kind of like with a microphone, when you take one microphone and put it too close to the speaker, it makes this sort of squealing sound in the sense, like you could see emotions like that.

Angus Ross (10m 56s):
I've got myself a little bit out of whack, a little bit out of balance. And it's just, it's a moment to sort of, not to sort of feel like we have to do anything. It's just a moment to realize, you know, what, there's something, there's something being suggested here to me that that has given me feedback, but I'm moving away from where I need to be. And, and there's a, and there's a trust in it that perhaps, you know, there's always a gravitational force, always leading us back to balance and harmony.

Rohini Ross (11m 27s):
And I would take it even one step further and say that it's actually not out of balance that our emotional experience is actually never out of balance. It's always part of balance. And that intense feelings are not something that are unhealthy or bad or wrong. They are part of how we maintain balance.

Angus Ross (11m 53s):
Well, that's a much bigger loftier point than I was making. I guess that's why they pay you the big bucks.

Rohini Ross (12m 5s):
Well, anyway, before we head into this episode, I think it's important to let our listeners know that the subject matter does include discussion about abortion, both voluntary and medically recommended. And in light of the current challenges to Roe vs way in the United States related to a woman's access to reproductive choice, we want to be clear that you and I are both pro choice, and we believe that a woman's reproductive choices are between her and her doctor and that it's not something that should be politicized or that the government should get involved with.

Angus Ross (12m 44s):
Okay, well, without further ado, why don't we listen to what Becs has to say?

Rohini Ross (13m 1s):
Beck's thank you so much for offering to speak with us today. We're really thrilled to have you. And I was really moved when you reached out. And I know that this is a sensitive subject for you and something that is a stretch for you to share. So we really acknowledge you for your courage and your willingness to be in service to others in this way.

Angus Ross (13m 24s):
Yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much for your willingness to, to be with us today and, and what you're going to share and what you're going to talk about. It's, it's a real honor and a privilege for us to, to have this experience while I know it is for me, I'm sure for you too. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (13m 40s):
So where would you like to start in terms of your experience?

Becs Steele (13m 45s):
Well, I reached out to you about this subject matter because I feel like it is a really important subject to talk about that lots of women don't really talk about. It's a very private thing to go through, which is, you know, that loss of having babies and going through those fertility years. And some people it's just a breeze and they managed to have children many easily and everything just slots into place. And I always thought I'd be one of those people, you know, just click my fingers and it would all be okay. And, and then there's a lot of people that don't talk about it at all. And there's a lot of suffering that goes through, you know, through that period of time.

Becs Steele (14m 29s):
And I think it just felt right at the time, just to, to reach out to you and to bring up this subject in a more open forum and to, I suppose in hindsight, look at it through the eyes of rewilding and three principles and, and also touch on the knowledge I needed to have at the time. I did have awareness of, of this understanding at the time. So I think that did really helped me.

Rohini Ross (14m 59s):
Yeah. I think that's going to be really important to, to show and share how that was supportive for you during that time. And I think it's really accurate what you're saying in terms of, oftentimes this is not discussed. It's, there's a lot of shame that can be experienced around difficulties with fertility. There can be a lot of grief that makes it difficult to share. So I'm sure that you being willing to share experiences, hopefully going to be able to support other women with being able to see how they can support themselves better. And so, would you like to just give us a little bit of context in terms of how this unfolded for you?

Becs Steele (15m 44s):
Yeah. So I just wanted to start with something a counselor once said to me, which was at a very young age, a lot of women, not all women, because some women don't actually have any desire to have any children and that's totally fine. And some people will leave it and have children. And then think actually, you know, I'm an amazing mother and a lot of women do have a real deep rooted desire at a very young age to have children. And the counselor said to me, you decide maybe when you were seven or eight, what you want your family to look like. And, and I do remember having this picture sort of that age thinking I'll have three children at the age of 26, and this is what my life's going to look like.

Becs Steele (16m 32s):
And obviously that was a childhood dream. Things don't work out like that, but I just thought that that was quite interesting, that, that we do have a sort of set view of how things are going to look. And when things don't match up to that, that's where the suffering is. And, you know, we will have a picture and it might not be, it might not involve children. It might be, you know, whatever the scenario is, but we have a very set idea of what life could look like. And yeah. And when it doesn't look like that, it can cause problems.

Rohini Ross (17m 8s):
I think that's a good point because expectations in any area of life can create suffering when life doesn't meet them, that, that gap between our expectation and what life gives us. There can be a lot of suffering in there.

Angus Ross (17m 23s):
Yeah. Without doubt, you know, I think that, that we can formulate a very strong intention. And then when that tension doesn't necessarily come to fruition, then it's very easy to beat ourselves up or, or to feel like we're falling short or all of the above, to be honest.

Becs Steele (17m 38s):
Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think that's where a lot of the suffering for me came in was it was like what age I should be and what age gaps there should be between my children and all these things. But I'll obviously go into the story more. But I think that's where a lot of this suffering came from. But so me and my husband, we married actually 13 years ago in September. And I had a very set idea in my head that I would be on the path to having children. And, and, and then his mum told us we, after we were married that as family carried.

Becs Steele (18m 23s):
So that's my husband's name said character's genetic condition in the family. And actually having children would be very difficult. And the children would either people would, they'd have a week to live if they'd have such severe difficulties, you know, with brain and heart. And it was called a translocation and it's one of the chromosome in swept ground. And or that they wouldn't reach term, the babies wouldn't reach term. But just to backtrack a bit, which I feel is quite a significant part of the story is that I got pregnant when I was 29 before we were married a few years younger than me, and he wasn't ready to have a baby then, but I was very ready.

Becs Steele (19m 13s):
And so I was in a whole dilemma of dilemma about what to do, whether to keep the baby or not. And I was, it's one of the guys to this people, pleasing aspect of the, I have a very strong people pleasing side to me at the time, which was, I want to make ed happy. And he said, go and speak to my mum. And she'll be able to give you the advice that you need, because she's quite open-minded about these things. And anyway, she didn't tell us at that point that we had this genetic thing in the family, and she knew at the time, and I opted to have a termination because I was going thinking about ads side of things.

Becs Steele (20m 4s):
And I was regretted that, and there was a lot of the anger for me towards my mother-in-law at the time, because I felt like it was my right to know at that point. And now looking back three, forgive the eyes of forgiveness and everyone, you know, everyone's in their own psychological innocence. I have to say it took a long time to get to that point. I realized that, you know, she just wanted us to make the decision based on our own decision. Right. But I still feel like everyone in my life felt like that was the wrong thing to do.

Becs Steele (20m 49s):
So because of what eventually happened was that there was a lot of loss of, of babies on the way

Rohini Ross (20m 58s):
When you're talking about that, I can, I can kind of see the emotions coming up. It's, it's still seems like there's a lot of feeling there. So I'm just wondering what was helpful in terms of you coming to making peace with, you know, you having that, making a choice from people pleasing your mother-in-law not sharing that information. I don't know if there are any feelings of resentment toward ed as a result of him not wanting to have a baby at that time. So it just seems like there's an awful lot there. Do you want to share a little bit more about that?

Becs Steele (21m 35s):
Yeah, I think so. What's interesting around that time, again, there's people pleasing aspect of my personality was to never cause a fuss or to take on board and, but not hurt anyone else's feelings. So I think at the time I should have said, actually, you could have told me at that moment in time that we had carried this thing. And I think if I just let it out and actually said how angry I was that would have saved me a lot of years, if the sentiment building up, because every baby that I lost, the more and more resentment I built up.

Becs Steele (22m 17s):
So I think for me at the time, if I just stood up in my space, which the whole rewilding thing is about is we were allowed to express our anger. And, and actually, and it's not to say that she was doing it to hurt us or anything like that. But, you know, at the point at that point of time, I should have expressed that actually I'm quite angry and I felt really hurt and betrayed at that point from a woman to women. And I think what eventually, I think we're one time is, is a healer and two, knowing the principles and the understanding, and just seeing that, you know, we're all operating from the level of consciousness that we're aware of at the time, there was so much hurt and pain on her side.

Becs Steele (23m 10s):
Cause she'd experienced quite a lot of loss herself. Actually, the main reason she didn't tell us is that she thought if, if ed hadn't had known this before, then the person he married wouldn't have fallen in love with him or would have wanted to leave her. So she was very much protecting her children. And I felt that that actually wasn't really protecting and responsibility very much nice to it, the women in this situation. So all the responsibility was on me to kind of go off and investigate what, what this genetic problem ones and all the options available to us and whether we did IVF or at least different things available.

Becs Steele (24m 4s):
So it felt like there was a lot of responsibility on my part. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (24m 11s):
Yeah. Well, it sounds like she was concerned that you wouldn't stay with ed before he got married. And so she chose to tell the two of you, so ed didn't know about this either is what I'm hearing.

Becs Steele (24m 23s):
No, no. And his sister, again, we were all told at the same time, so yeah. So it was a bit of a shock for everyone.

Rohini Ross (24m 33s):
Yeah.

Angus Ross (24m 35s):
Can I, can I just ask with, with this first pregnancy, I mean, I guess you don't know, but was, was it, was it, was, it was, it was the baby or the fetus, was it healthy? And when was it going to be subject to the same conditions that,

Becs Steele (24m 52s):
Yeah, it would have been either way, so I would never know. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (24m 58s):
Yeah. It's kind of the unknown. And so once you were told this information, then how did all of that unfold?

Becs Steele (25m 9s):
Well, again, like, like I said, I think a lot of the responsibility was on me being the woman. Cause there's that ticking clock when I was 30, it's like, oh, I need to have a baby. Right. And now I'm looking back. I know that there is plenty of time at that time. So, but at the time it felt like I've got this urgency to, to, to get on with it. And so I went and spoke to the geneticist at the hospital and got all the details and looked into whether IVF would be an option because you can do this pre genetic testing with IVF. You can test all the eggs to see if they've got carry a genetic problem.

Becs Steele (25m 53s):
But yeah, we, we got pregnant. So getting pregnant for me. So this is the blessing, cause I know a lot of women also suffer with the fact that they can't get pregnant and men have a thing. So the pregnant getting pregnant. So it was the easy bit that wasn't a problem. It's just, I had to wait four months for an amniocentesis. And that was where we put a big needle in, through your tummy and they get the amniotic fluid to test the chromosomes. And it's a procedure that you have to do later on.

Becs Steele (26m 35s):
There was always these big waiting times. And until we knew what the outcome of, if the baby was okay or not. And so the first pregnancy I had was for nearly five months, cause they messed up, they messed up the amniocentesis and then I had to go and get it maybe done. And we found out that it carried very severe translocation. And so yeah, I, I had to go through the birth of the baby and it was a true, very, very traumatic experience.

Becs Steele (27m 17s):
But in my mind I knew I was doing the right thing for the health of the baby. And for us, you know, I guess, like I said, the babies would have died within a week of being.

Rohini Ross (27m 33s):
So at that point, once you did get the amniocentesis correct results, and at that point, the pregnancy was terminated because of the results to avoid greater suffering for the baby. And also it was your health ever at risk as a result of this situation.

Becs Steele (27m 53s):
No, my health wasn't arrest, but lots of things did come out of this issues with my health afterwards, more of the stress of it. Really. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (28m 7s):
And so you said that that situation was very traumatic. How did you cope afterwards?

Becs Steele (28m 15s):
It was very traumatic because it was, it was, yeah, it was a process of giving birth food, which was a traumatic experience. And also in tandem ed system was also going through all this stuff at the same time. So we'd go through our grief and a month later something which the same thing happened to her. So it felt like, and obviously ad's mum was very traumatized by what her daughter was going through. And so it never felt like we were able to experience the grief in many ways, but at the time, I didn't know this understanding, it wasn't the three principles, but the, we are not a victim of our lives.

Becs Steele (29m 14s):
Bad things happen to us, but we are not victim of it. And that did, I never felt a victim in this situation, which I think I could have done without the understanding. I knew, I knew that. I mean, I did anger and frustration, but I never felt like, oh, poor, poor me when my going this, I might've done at times, but,

Rohini Ross (29m 47s):
And how did you see it then if it, if you weren't seeing it that way, how did you see yourself as you navigated this?

Becs Steele (29m 55s):
I saw it as this is life and this is what people go through. Some people have it a lot worse and, and I could be not getting pregnant. And you know, I saw it as yeah. Part of what we go through. Right. But I think that the thing that's that troubled me the most was all the anger I was carrying.

Rohini Ross (30m 27s):
And at the time, were you aware that you were not expressing yourself or w I'm just curious how that was impacting you?

Becs Steele (30m 37s):
I know, I don't think so. I think I couldn't expect my, my emotions. I couldn't express my emotions very well at the time. So I possibly up, and I want angry talk with mum, but I never said anything.

Angus Ross (31m 16s):
Did you just resolve, you know, I want to have a baby, I'm going to have a baby. And this is just how it is, how it's going to be for me. We have to go through this process of getting pregnant. And then in four months time, we'll, we'll get to, you know, figure out if it's, it's going to be healthy or not. Did you just, just PR press on, I mean, that, that, I mean, it must just be so hard to do that.

Becs Steele (31m 37s):
I got pregnant, I can very quickly afterwards. And so then it was very another four month wait, so you can imagine it was eight, pretty much eight months of this. And I think limbo is the worst place to be not knowing what the outcome's going to be. And I, and I tried very hard to be present with the experience, but no, there's a lot of suffering and not knowing which way things are going to pan out, because I think it's about being attached to the outcome and not allowing yourself to feel too much because you don't know what the outcome is going to be.

Becs Steele (32m 35s):
And, and I know a lot of women have to wait three months anyway, to really know, but I think you do attach to the idea. And I think I really shut down emotionally too. I became, I shut down emotionally to the whole experience and to the babies that I was carrying, because I couldn't let myself feel, but obviously I know that I've got to come out at some stage and it's all there. Yeah. I think there was, it was by the second pregnancy and so eight months on, and it was, I was pretty traumatized by this waiting and not knowing the outcome.

Becs Steele (33m 27s):
And then as we had Anna, who's now 11 and she has got the all clear doesn't even carry the genetic and yeah. And so that was amazing. But then there was a drive to have a second child. So I think for me, it was, it was like, I really appreciate where I'm at having one child was amazing. And compared to our sister who wasn't able to have any at this stage, we felt completely lucky and overjoyed, but I think two or three years down the line that starts coming back again, it's just a biological.

Rohini Ross (34m 21s):
And so what was that journey like in terms of then wanting to try for your second child?

Becs Steele (34m 29s):
Well, so having these two pregnancies, very close together, and back to back, I got issues with my thyroid. I got graves' disease, which is like overactive thyroid. They said, you can't try for another year because you've got to go on this really strong medication. You can't. I think my body was just kind of depleted from having these two pregnancies and then so I had to wait a bit longer and yeah, so the same thing came up again further each time I tried it, it was this long wait and then a negative outcome.

Becs Steele (35m 12s):
And it happened three, three more times, three more times. Yeah. I had a round of IVF as well, but there was a long period. That's what, there's a seven year age gap between max and Ella. There was a long time where it was like, I'm not going to go there anymore. I can't do it. And then it's like, know, but that I never felt complete with one child, but now I realize that was or thought, but it did feel like a very strong feeling.

Becs Steele (36m 1s):
Yeah.

Rohini Ross (36m 4s):
And with that realization, seeing it as thought, does that shift anything in any way for you?

Becs Steele (36m 13s):
Yes. Because the space I'm in now mean it's difficult for me to, to sort of rationalize it because obviously now I've got two children. I had to come to a place just before I got pregnant. I thought I'll try it one more time and that'd be it. And cause we'd done the IVF and then we had six embryos and all of them carry this. Genetic problem add has, was always happy with one. So here you kind of stopped at one and misled. So it always felt like it was me that was, was pushing for more and also I'd looked into adoption and all these things and he, it felt like I was carrying this dead weight with me.

Becs Steele (36m 59s):
He didn't want to, he just didn't want to do it. Cause he'd like, we're, we're so lucky. We're so lucky. And we were so lucky, but it also felt like I wasn't complete. And I can't remember what your question was.

Rohini Ross (37m 21s):
Well, at the time, what I hear is that you didn't realize that not feeling complete. Wasn't really true. It was a real experience, but it was based on your thinking. You didn't see that at that point.

Becs Steele (37m 33s):
No, I, I saw it as a very strong feeling that I need to have more children, but then I did come to a place where I was okay. And happy. And that's when we got another baby.

Rohini Ross (37m 49s):
Isn't that? So often how that happens when we let go and surrender,

Becs Steele (37m 54s):
Like I did that go into the lender. And I think what, what really is the kind of the message is that, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking in tune in the future. What is my life going to look like almost a decade? And my life was what's my like, life gonna look like if I have a child when at as four or five or six, or what's the age gap going to be, or how old am I going to be? And is that too old? Is it too, you know, is it too late for me? Is it so much of my life was consumed by this?

Becs Steele (38m 34s):
And I know that it's the same for so many women that it just takes over it's your everything. And from the ex, you know, from the outside people can say, or your you're so lucky, you've got one and, and, and be happy with where you're at, but I can only look back on that now and, and see that, of course I can be happy at whatever my life circumstances are. And I'm seeing that so much more deeper than I could see it at the time, even though I did have the understanding, I just didn't see it as deeply.

Rohini Ross (39m 21s):
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like there's just a very human capacity to get very attached to outcome and very attached to life needing to be a certain way, like you were saying at the age of seven or eight, you'd already decided in your mind what you thought your family was going to look like. And then when life didn't meet you in the way that you had envisioned it, it sound like that had a lot of meaning for you in that meaning was painful and you were doing your absolute best at the time to navigate all of that, but in the misunderstanding of what was needed for your happiness, it sounds like there was a lot of suffering and a lot of drive to, to push yourself and to have the challenge in terms of not being on the same page as ad does a lot came up as a result of that.

Rohini Ross (40m 13s):
But what I'm also hearing now is that you're seeing the piece that's available in the present moment that you weren't able to see then and living more in that at this point in time.

Becs Steele (40m 27s):
Yes, I think so. I feel like I lost, I got very serious about life during that stage. It was like, I didn't restrict my diet and cause I, you know, I studied nutrition and so it was like, oh, I've got to be super healthy. Not that it would have made any difference. Cause it was a sort of quantity that without our control and I've got very restrictive with about ed and his lifestyle and he wasn't, we didn't have to look back. He wasn't very supportive. And some of the things that actions at the time were there, he was supportive emotionally, but some of his actions were not great and life just got super serious.

Becs Steele (41m 19s):
And I feel like I look back on my thirties and think, wow, I wasn't living my life. And I kept having, cause I knew, got to live in the moment and you've got to save her everything. And I knew we understanding and it was trying to do that, but it, it wasn't happening like that. And it also that's how life is, isn't it, it's all like a big learning curve and, and we can look back and go, oh wow. I would, I could only see it that way. I could see it at the time. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (41m 55s):
And I think what you're saying is an important point that a lot of people can come up against. I know that I have myself is where we have an intellectual understanding of, you know, spiritual truths and yet it's an intellectual understanding. So it really doesn't do much for us. And we can then judge ourselves as a result of that and really be hard on ourselves that, oh, I'm not, I should be living in the moment. I'm not living in the moment I'm attached to outcome. I shouldn't be attached to outcome that we can really be very unloving with with an understanding of that is meant to be very loving. And so I hear that you kind of got tangled up in that in the way that I would have done as well.

Becs Steele (42m 36s):
Yeah. It was very much an intellectual understanding at the time. And I do remember a couple of that. I used to, again, similar understanding and they talk about being in the moment. And I remember them saying to me that, you know, if these things will become a series of facts, facts that have happened to you when you look back on, on, on the situation. And it's so true that when we look back, it's like in the time of the time, it's like, oh, everything. And we could like, Angus is always saying, oh, virtual reality goggles. You know, we can only see the world through that then. And I could only see the world through, I want to have the baby and it's tip challenging and it's taken over my life, but obviously carrying on my life and achieving things at the same time.

Becs Steele (43m 25s):
But is now I can sit back and go actually, yeah, it was just some events that happened to me in, but there was so much emotion involved in that.

Rohini Ross (43m 56s):
And how did the rewilding impact you sort of coming into this understanding and the way the Angus and I are talking about it, what was the impact and how was that helpful?

Becs Steele (44m 9s):
Well, I think for me, well, I did that, your training, we welding training as well, which was just amazing. And it was, it was about embracing all of our experience and all of our emotions and, and actually some through the training, some, some of this emotion did come up around this experience and that there, I think it's really fascinating that when we relax around a situation and you know, like I said, I, I was very angry towards and it's mum, but I, I let go of that quite a few years ago, actually, probably at the start of the rewilding journey whenever you did your training and yeah.

Becs Steele (45m 0s):
And when we let go of the anger and, and because, you know, if we're holding a grudge or a holding with element so tight and that's when more emotion has been able to come up for me around, around this. And for me, it was, it's all about seeing very deeply into our human experience and how we it's never that suffering isn't there, but it's more mental trying to control our experience or control our suffering or manage it or think it should be another way that's when we're stuck.

Becs Steele (45m 45s):
And I could see, I was very stuck for quite a long time.

Rohini Ross (45m 50s):
Yeah, it's making me think. We watched them the documentary yesterday with Annie Lamont, who is a writer and she was talking about grief and the way that she was sharing what she'd written about grief. She talked about how, when we're, and I might not be quoting this exactly. But as I remember it, it was how we can be fully open to the experience of grief. And that doesn't mean that we won't have a scar from the grief, but that it will heal cleanly. And there's something about being open to experience in the way that you're talking about it, not trying to manage our experience, not trying to control our experience with simply being open and allowing it to unfold that allows the healing to happen more gracefully.

Rohini Ross (46m 40s):
And also I think allows us to see whatever there is to see from that experience that allows our understanding to deepen.

Angus Ross (46m 48s):
I was thinking that too, I was trying to figure out how it relates it cut to me, the scar tissue heals in a much more clean way. The more willing we are to feel the emotional experience that we're going through at the time. I'm so I'm so struck by your song. Sorry. Did you have something to respond to that?

Becs Steele (47m 6s):
Oh, I was going to say was that I see that I was also trying to, like you were saying controlling my experience, living in the moment, doing it all intellectually. And also I'm saying to myself the whole time, but you're lucky. You're lucky you've got another night or you've got another child and at sister she can't catch to that stage. And so you're the lucky one. So it was like this operating of myself the whole time, rather than allowing the grief and because my experience was my experience and it was a hard experience to go through, but I wasn't allowing myself to feel that.

Angus Ross (47m 45s):
Yeah. I mean, it's such a extraordinary story. And for me in a week, we can start to sort of, you know, sort of analyze all the ways that we might've done a better job and it's all fought and all the rest of it. But for me, it's just an incredible story of courage and tenacity. You know, so much about what we talk about rewilding and life. Being able to find a way the intelligence in life will prevail. If only we let it, it's kind of like you had this very strong intention and, and fantastic that we have that intellectual machinery to sort of create a strong intention, but you were determined to have children. And there's a, there's a whole sort of dance that you do with your own biology, the biological, you know, the biology is, is wanting us to procreate.

Angus Ross (48m 31s):
So you marry that with intention. That's a pretty formidable force and, and, you know, you prevailed. I mean, it's so courageous knowing that what you're up against to still one aid and abreast aid and ABET that process of life, finding a way. And now you have two beautiful children as a result of that tenacity and that courage when I, you know, it's just such an inspiring story. And I think that, you know, there's a sort of tendency for me to sort of like, you know, what is the spiritual lesson here? And I still don't even know, you know, what that means, but in a S in a sense, it's like just as a, as a, as a story of human endeavor, what incredible courage and tenacity, it's really inspiring.

Angus Ross (49m 16s):
And it's like, if you can get through that, you can get through anything. You could do anything with your life, because the determination in the face of what looks like such an incredible obstacle to get through, to have to know that, you know, you have to wait four months and you've got to somehow detach yourself from your biology, because the biology is probably insisting that you have this sort of very maternal outlook about this fetus that's growing inside of you to sort of, to not be able to sort of, you know, try and remove yourself in that way. It's like, I don't know. It's just amazing to me. And I'm just feeling kind of really, I don't know. I feel kind of honored to know you, to know someone that's kind of pushed themselves through such, such an incredible struggle prevailed, and in, in kind of in tandem with that intelligence behind life, you've, you, you've brought two beings into this world and, and had to face huge challenge.

Becs Steele (50m 15s):
Oh, thank you, Angus. And I've always felt like, I think that was it. It's like, you always know someone that's worse off than you don't, you, you always know someone that's been through way worse and, you know, women have to face bear. I was saved. I mean, it was the process of, of that in a way, women have to go through so much struggle to get, to get to the babies that they want. Or, and I mean, hadn't the bed, if you lived somewhere like Afghanistan, what that's like, that's a whole, yeah. So it's a very emotive thing to yeah.

Becs Steele (50m 56s):
Subject really. And it's, I think that's the key is like, if, if we can be more open about it and women can, can talk about their experience more, I think it is, is really important.

Angus Ross (51m 8s):
Yeah. I think it's so, so important. And it's, it's so easy to feel like, yeah, this is a subject that I can't talk about publicly. And so many people are probably having similar experiences, which is so helpful to know that someone is willing to sort of wear their heart on their sleeve and share their story just for the most part, in terms of how we struggle in life. It's usually the fact that we have to keep these secrets and suffer in silence. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the most healthy approach to live our lives. It's not,

Becs Steele (51m 41s):
Well, I think it's a loss of a future, but so if we all have an idea, don't we have, when we get pregnant, we're going to carry the baby, and this is our future, and this is what it's going to look like. And so every time a woman news is that it's like starting all over again. And that, that future that they had is gone in a flat, you know, in a moment. And so I think what women go through, if they're having miscarriage or terminations, whatever they're facing or not being able to get pregnant, it's like, this is, this is what I expect. And, and, and this is what my future is gonna look like, and then it's taken away, but I know, and some women never have that opportunity.

Becs Steele (52m 31s):
And, and I think the whole, the whole thinking part is so massive once we know this understanding, you know, when we truly, truly okay in ourselves and in the moment, then everything is okay, whatever path that life takes, but it takes a lot to, to really get that. And, and, and it doesn't take away from, from the loss and the grief that people are going through.

Rohini Ross (53m 11s):
Yeah. I think that parallel is so profound because it's not by, we know it wasn't through you berating yourself, telling yourself you should be grateful for what you have, that wasn't helpful in terms of your healing. It was painful and it exacerbated an already painful situation. And so what I hear is in your experience through embracing the validity of your feelings and being with them and allowing them to be what they were, that actually was what helped you to experience not in an intellectual way, but in a experiential knowing way, that true okayness that exists within it's through going through the human experience and being open to the human experience that you saw something more deeply true about your true nature that is unchanging.

Rohini Ross (54m 10s):
And I think that that is really everything that the rewilding is about. It's through embracing the fullness of life, the fullness of who we are, and being open to that, and being with our humanity, understanding that that's part of the learning and growth part of the learning curve, and then seeing where it takes us just as you had to do that. And, and as you said, many women struggle in the area of fertility. Some women are never able to conceive even with all of the science and the technology that is available to us. And, and so it's, it's really important to have space for all that, that reveals to us about ourselves and about our humanity and about the truth of who we are.

Becs Steele (55m 1s):
Yeah. And, and I think that we, yeah, we can get so stuck in controlling our lives, wanting it to be a certain way. And I've seen more, more deeply recently that, and I think you wrote a blog post about this recently, Rohini about controlling our spiritual experience. And I could really see that I, I do that a lot. Like, am I in the moment, am I living my life? I should be in a perfect spiritual way and kind of patting myself on the head the whole time with it.

Becs Steele (55m 43s):
And it's like, and then, so I'm going to think I'm Rossetti 15. But I, I said to myself, show me more around for show me more about what I need to see around thoughts. And this answer came back to me, which was you, you're still very invested in your thinking and you still think that that is you. So I, it kind of blew my mind apart a bit. Cause I was just like, oh yeah, I just saw it a bit deeper that yeah. I've had moments where I'm lots of, lots of wonderful, you know, moments of being in the moment and, and I'm living my life in the immediacy of life, but it was like, it was just a deepening of, of oh yeah.

Becs Steele (56m 34s):
But that really isn't me. I really don't have to believe it. And yes, it's going to come and it's going to go and it's going to come and it's going to go and it's going to go like that forever. But when I'm in that constricted place, it doesn't feel good. And, you know, even though I'm nervous now I can feel myself still a bit nervous, but yeah, I don't have to be in my head about everything. And I think that, it's just, if, if you can just get that one at any level, it is an amazing thing to experience for people going through whatever they might be going through.

Angus Ross (57m 41s):
I think it's something that's a journey for us all in terms of how we can get caught up in thoughts, you know, as you were talking, I was reflecting on how, you know, how we can get so caught up in expectation and obviously the expectations to have a child. I mean, that's, that's, that's pretty high stakes. And for all that you have to go through. And it feels like for me, the journey, a big part of the journey, and maybe for everybody, the big part of the journey around thought is, is how I can have expectations. And then there's this sort of fear that may develop that they may not be fulfilled. And then I get into this whole sort of negative future fantasy.

Angus Ross (58m 21s):
I go into this sort of have a field day around how my expectations are not going to be fully fulfilled and what that looks like. And I can waste so much time there. And it's all a reflection I'm sure of my state of mind. I get into a low mood and decide, yeah, I'm going to play that movie. Or I'm going to, it's like, you know, I have a taste for horror movies or whatever it is. I remember someone once saying to me is like, you know, if you're, if you're going to dream, you know, Y Y fail in your own fantasy, you know, you know, think about, you know, how it might all work out happily, but there's, there's always been this compulsion for me, just to sort of like in the past, I really sort of get invested in, in thinking, well, how can this go horribly wrong?

Angus Ross (59m 6s):
And so in some way that I'm going to be ready for it. I don't know. And I, and I feel like that there's such a, so much time spent there. That's so wasteful and unproductive. And that for me is just, that's, that's just something that, you know, hopefully I deepen into and see more and get, and catch myself when there is that inclination to go there.

Becs Steele (59m 29s):
Yeah. And then that's what I think, I think, oh my God, how much of my life, if I wasted and, and, and the drama and the, and the outcomes and the expectations and, and, and, you know, I'm sure I'm going to do it a lot more, but it's just, it's realizing that we have is, is now, and from the now space, there are possibilities. And when you're in your very limited possibilities, and I think that's put, you know, I wish I'd know more about at the time, but I could only know what I know.

Becs Steele (1h 0m 12s):
And I think that, yeah, I think the biggest thing for me at the moment is looking at attachment and attachment to like, were saying attachment to outcomes, attachments in all areas of life and how strong those attachments are. And there is that attachment obviously to being a mother and to being a career person and, and a good friend or whatever, good wife, and there's all of these attachments to our roles and to outcomes. And I think, I think I'm just trying to see a bit more around that. And, and I think there's a lot to see

Angus Ross (1h 0m 55s):
No doubt all of us, you know, me to it. And it makes me a, I think I've used, I have used this metaphor before, but even now I feel like I'm seeing it in a deeper way. It's like, you know, you have those GPS apps that, you know, always, it's always remarkable to me. There'd been a couple of times when I've had to drive home from the airport. And there's obviously, there's the sort of like the, the, as the Crow flies routes, that's pretty straightforward. And then there are times when you just have to trust the information that's coming through real time that can take you most take you on the most. <inaudible> the most elaborately, all the back doubles, but it gets you home. It's kind of like that intelligence is always trying to look for them.

Angus Ross (1h 1m 36s):
You know, the intelligence behind life, our essential, intuitive nature is always looking for the most optimal way to find balance and harmony. It's always looking for the, the, you know, the best way, the best routes. And the only way that I really kind of ignore that is like, if I just get into my head and just try to imagine is like how this is going to take me way off track, and then I'll be lost. We don't want to get lost. And yet, you know, that intelligence is always looking to find a way. And, and I think that for me is what's at the heart of rewilding. I love that.

Becs Steele (1h 2m 9s):
Yeah, definitely. I think that's the biggest message from the army wilding and also that when we really listen that they are there within us, in our heads, we're just stuck, literally stuck in morphing king and finding a way out from that is, is amazing. It will take many years. I was in that phase for many years, like,

Angus Ross (1h 2m 39s):
Yeah. And, and then again, in that maze for many years, you still prevailed. You know, you still have the courage and the tenacity to sort of like, you know, stick to your guns. You got the,

Becs Steele (1h 2m 50s):
But for me, it was like, I cannot be an older mother. So I had my accident. I was 38 and I felt like that was way too old because I started children having children at 30. And that was like, no, no, no, that's too old. And now, now I'm, you know, considered probably an older mum and in many ways I'm 42. And it's like, why should I waste all that time? Worrying about my age. I actually feel younger now than I did when I was,

Rohini Ross (1h 3m 21s):
Yeah, it's funny. We just, we get caught up in the meaning, but we make up and it's not truth, but it's just meaning that we make up. And then we, as that meaning shifts, we see like, oh, that was made up because I just shifted that meaning. So it's, we just see the subjective nature of it all. And I love that metaphor that you used of amaze. And I think we, when we look at the intellect, how we can dive into our intellectual processing and it does feel like amaze when we're caught up in that. And often when we're in a maze, we just get more and more feelings of urgency about how to get out of the maze. And so we run around the maze of our thinking, but really the only way out is to lift up and see the maze for what it is.

Rohini Ross (1h 4m 8s):
There's no escape of the maze. There's just simply that shift in perspective. And as soon as we see that's what we're doing, then we naturally relaxed. So we naturally find ourselves in a more expanded way of thinking. And I think that's something that's also really helpful for people to recognize that the shift in perspective is effortless. It doesn't, it's not something we can do. It's actually in the not doing and the relaxing into what is that. It naturally comes into our awareness. The maze

Angus Ross (1h 4m 41s):
Is the illusion.

Becs Steele (1h 4m 43s):
Yeah. Just melts away. Yeah. And that's it. I think that's what I'm trusting more and more is that there's nothing to do. Yeah. That is so confusing to the brain. The brain loves the main brain, loves the maze. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and also trusting and, and also asking questions for me has been really big for me. It's like, what do I need to see?

Rohini Ross (1h 5m 14s):
So you're saying like inwardly reflecting and asking those and listening, that's really powerful.

Becs Steele (1h 5m 21s):
And that's only been recently.

Rohini Ross (1h 5m 24s):
Yeah. I think that's a excellent practice that helps us really see that when we listen and reflect in that way, our own knowing bubbles up that deeper knowing within us has the opportunity to reveal something to us

Angus Ross (1h 5m 42s):
Or a universal knowing. Yes.

Rohini Ross (1h 5m 45s):
Impersonal knowing.

Angus Ross (1h 5m 48s):
So in a sense, when we come together with other, other people, there's a heightened opportunity to drop into interesting on that level. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (1h 5m 57s):
And the group experience, but we can also do that alone too. It's like we can do it both ways. So Beck's, this is a really inspiring story in terms of your own learning along the way, not just that you were able to have two children, even with all of the challenging circumstances, but also the unfolding of your own awakening about your inner peace, about your wellbeing, independent of those circumstances. I think that is the, the clear message that you're sharing with us is how that's available and how you see the shifts that you've made over time from being more caught up to less caught up and, and that's ongoing and it's infinite, and there's always more to see in that direction.

Rohini Ross (1h 6m 43s):
Is there anything else that you haven't shared with us that you'd like to share with us today?

Becs Steele (1h 6m 50s):
I think there's, yeah, I think I was invested in being tough and getting through it. And now I know now know through the rewilding that actually, you know, that, that just prevents and prolongs the suffering. And, but maybe that's what I could do at that time. That's the way I, you know, I mean, it, wasn't what I could do at that time, but maybe that's how I could only get through it that way. And I think also that if you are struggling with this situation or a similar situation that, you know, I suppose it's about getting quiet and, and announce it out of the story of it and knowing that things will work out in the end,

Rohini Ross (1h 7m 51s):
That there's an unfolding of what is that's going to be, what is no matter what, whether we're stressing about it or not, that unfolding is still going to be showing up.

Becs Steele (1h 8m 1s):
And there is so much wasted time by being in a lab. It's about things

Angus Ross (1h 8m 8s):
There's no two ways about it. You are tough, you know, to go through that experience. And I think you hit the nail on the head, you know, for all that you've been through your wisdom showed up and got you through that experience. And part of that is your tenacity and toughness. And then the question is, you know, you can start to see with the benefit of hindsight now is, you know, that there were long periods where you probably suffered on unnecessarily by getting lost in, in your analytical thinking. And, and now that's something that, you know, you can, you can share with other people and that that's going to be a value. You're still incredibly tough. You know, don't ever take that away from yourself.

Angus Ross (1h 8m 49s):
It's like, that's not a bad thing.

Rohini Ross (1h 8m 50s):
No, and I, but I, what I hear what you're saying though, backs in terms of there's that facade of toughness, the mask of toughness that we can put on that is really just hiding the fear and the vulnerability and that yes, absolutely. You have that inner strength and that as Angus is saying that incredible resilience and what I'm hearing is you're seeing for yourself that you're also able to be vulnerable and experience the weakness and experience all of those other feelings that you didn't think you were able to have room for previously, because that would have derailed you. And that's really what we're embracing. And the rewilding is making room for the entire range of human experience within ourselves and, and feeling the richness that, that gives us not because we're wallowing in it, but because there's a intelligence within that and that absolutely you did your best and that the way you went through that was the best way that you could cope at that time.

Rohini Ross (1h 9m 49s):
And then now you have a new level of understanding that has you see it differently. And has you live life differently now where you're at?

Becs Steele (1h 9m 57s):
Yeah. And I think the people pleasing aspect of my personality was so strong then. And it was, although I did him over to say, Mavis can say that it's not actually an aspect of your personality. It's just a habit. So the it's the, the jive to sort of please everyone else around me and show that I'm okay. And, and, you know, I won't show my emotions because I'll upset you or I'll upset you. And, you know, and I've got to keep it together the whole time, but actually all that does is just hurt her. It hurt myself.

Rohini Ross (1h 10m 36s):
Yeah. Yeah. So that conditioning was really strong and now you're experiencing more freedom from that. And by the way, I think, I think personality in its entirety is just habit of thoughts. So we can just throw it all into the thought container. Cause yeah, it's all malleable really when it comes right down to it Again, we really appreciate your courage.

Rohini Ross (1h 11m 17s):
We appreciate you being willing to be in your nervousness and still share. And listening to that deeper part of yourself that you knew that you wanted to do this, even though there's some noise in your head about what does that mean? So thank you so much for being willing.

Angus Ross (1h 11m 33s):
Yeah. Thank you so much. I mean, my goodness, what a story and what a thing to share, that's going to be of such value to so many people without question in my mind.

Becs Steele (1h 11m 42s):
Well, and I want to say thank you to you guys, to me, I appreciate you so much. And the, we worked in community has just, I mean, what I've got from that has been amazing and the training and I cannot even say what's really happened to me in the last year because it was just unfolding the whole time. And, and that's such a lovely, supportive community and that you've created and pretty special.

Angus Ross (1h 12m 18s):
We feel really blessed that you're a part of it. So thank you

Rohini Ross (1h 12m 22s):
Q yeah. We were so grateful for you for your participation and also grateful ourselves for the community because we feel that we just get just as much support through holding that space is I think the participants do. So it's really beautiful. Yeah. And back sent some final notes that she wanted to have included in this episode.

Angus Ross (1h 12m 55s):
Yeah. It's sister thankfully was finally able to have twins.

Rohini Ross (1h 12m 60s):
Yeah. That's really beautiful. And Becs wanted to make it clear that the babies that were terminated when she was married were incompatible with life. And that is why the medical advice was determinate, those pregnancies. And then also as a result of the health challenges that she experienced, that was what had her look into nutritional therapy and eventually become a registered nutritional therapist.

Angus Ross (1h 13m 28s):
I don't know if it's, it's, it's pertinent for me to say, or even appropriate for me to say here that there is a silver lining, but there is a, it's very much a silver lining and a, an unbox is a, is a wonderful human being, doing wonderful work in the world. And that this journey that she's been on, which is important, a lot of suffering is now bringing a lot of good to the

Rohini Ross (1h 13m 52s):
Yeah. And it really allows her to be of service in a beautiful way. Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes, we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross (1h 14m 12s):
iTunes reviews. We'll steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross (1h 14m 17s):
If you would like to learn more about our work and their online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewilders.org.

Angus Ross (1h 14m 26s):
Thanks for listening. Join us next time.