EP1: Meet the Couple on the Brink of Divorce

Meet Alicia and Mateo, the couple in crisis who we’ll be following for the first season. Alicia was devastated when Mateo presented her with divorce papers. She wondered how they got to this point. Seven years ago, they were saying “I love you” on their first date. Mateo thought marriage would fix all of their problems, but now he feels like he’s made the biggest mistake of his life. Can Rohini and Angus help them rewild the love that is underneath the hurt and anger? And even if they do, will they stay together?

A lesson emerges that all couples can benefit from, we are not responsible for our partner’s experience. Embodying levity and depth, Angus and Rohini begin the journey of pointing to the innate love, harmony, and well-being that is already present in all people and all relationships.
 
This episode explores:

• How Alicia and Mateo met.
• The impact of mood on state of mind and how what we see through the lens of a low mood can’t be trusted.
• Flipping the paradigm: we are not responsible for our partner’s experience, and there’s immense freedom in seeing that.
• Angus and Rohini’s inspiration for the podcast.
• What it means to “rewild relationships.”
• How Mateo uses the threat of divorce to try and effect change, but he feels ambivalent about going through with it, leaving room for hope and possibility.
• The perils of falling into a victim mindset in relationships.
• Feeling unappreciated is a common theme couples experience.

Podcast music: Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area.

These 100% organic soundscapes are designed to tune, invigorate, calm, balance, nourish, activate, and clarify one’s mind, body, and soul. RhythmPharm helps one to Listen Differently.

Ep. 1 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Yellow/Clarity; Green/Growth

Show Notes:
Last chance saloon: Phrase comes from a saloon in Caldwell City, Kansas built-in 1869. It was called that because it was the last place to buy a legal alcoholic drink before passing into "Indian country" where the possession and sale of alcohol were forbidden.

Hunky Dory: The least exotic theory of all, but almost certainly the true clue, traces hunky-dory" to the archaic American slang word "hunk," meaning "safe," from the Dutch word "honk," meaning "goal," or "home" in a game. To achieve "hunk" or "hunky" in a child's game was to make it "home" and win the game. Hunky Dory is also the fourth studio album by English singer-songwriter David Bowie, released December 17, 1971, by RCA Records.

Rewilding Video:  How Wolves Change Rivers

Feedback: info@therewilders.org

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.

Transcript

REWILDING LOVE EPISODE 1 

SPEAKERS

Mateo, Alicia,  Angus and Rohini Ross

Angus Ross  00:06
Welcome to rewilding love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross  00:14
This is episode number one. introducing our brave couple Alicia and Mateo, part one.

Mateo  00:21 
I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.

Alicia  00:23
I didn't get married to like have uncertainties. I always felt like we were really passionate affection and love each other beyond belief. I mean, yeah, we said, I love you literally our first day. 

Mateo  00:32
I love the girl. I know that there are episodes and moments and I'm not in love with.

Rohini Ross  00:36
The innate harmony, love well being is actually already there.

Angus Ross  00:43
Hunky-dory, I can't believe I just said that.

Mateo  00:45
I think we're engaged. Like, I'm gonna get the girl that I want all the time.

Angus Ross  00:52
You are listening to rewilding love with me. Angus Ross, 

Rohini Ross  00:56
and me Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross  00:58
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships. 

Rohini Ross  01:02
We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewelded, listen in as we guide a real couple back to their natural state of love.

Angus Ross  01:14
Relax, and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross  01:23
So this is the first episode of our first podcast. And I came up with this idea a little while back. And I thought it would be really interesting to be able to do a recorded intensive with a couple. Angus and I do relationship intensives with couples. And we really wanted to be able to share it with a wider group of people. And we thought recording an intensive would be a great way to have something to share with people that would be able to help a large number of people through listening in and hearing how the sessions unfold. So we recorded an intensive plus the follow-up sessions with a couple. And I remember when I first brought up the idea with you, Angus, that you were a little bit skeptical? for a couple of reasons. Do you remember?

Angus Ross  02:16
Yeah, I thought it was a crazy idea. I thought that I'm gonna have to learn how to use all this technology, which seemed a little bit of a stretch to me. And then the other component to all this that I was concerned about was how on earth would we find a couple who would be willing to really be vulnerable in that way. And you know, obviously, for the podcast, to have really any kind of value, there needs to be a couple of we're having a significant challenge. And somehow we're going to lead this lead them on this journey back to healthy relationships. So I don't know, I just felt like it was unlikely we're going to find a couple is going to be willing to put themselves out there in that way.

Rohini Ross  02:56
So were you surprised? 

Angus Ross  02:57
I was really surprised if not. I mean, I was pleasantly surprised, and also quite shocked at how open and vulnerable. The people that we ended up working with really were able to be. 

Rohini Ross  03:10
Yeah, we are really grateful for their participation. And we have changed their names. So the names that we're using here aren't their actual names. So there is some level of anonymity for them. And you managed to figure out the technology pretty well.  Yeah, in fact, in a sense, it was actually probably thinking back, the technology actually got the ball rolling, because we said we started to have this conversation seriously, around the time of Black Friday. So if we were going to buy or make that investment, it had to be done really, in my mind on the spur of the moment, because there are all these wonderful bargains. So it's like, you know, let's pull the trigger on this. Because otherwise, you know, we're probably not going to have to get we're not this is not going to come around for another year, Black Friday being what it is, yeah, we got some incredible bargains and bought all the technology. And actually, it was, it wasn't as if we needed to have, you know, the services of some professional studio, it's pretty simple. But there are some things that you know, there are some bells and whistles that you need.  But you do love a bargain.

Angus Ross  04:13
I do love a bargain!

Rohini Ross  04:24
So we're going to be sharing clips from our sessions with our couple Alicia and Mateo.  But before we start there, we're just going to give you a little bit of background.

Angus Ross  04:33
Right, well background information. So Alicia and Matteo are a couple in their 30s. They've been together for seven years and they've been married a year. They were referred to us by Alicia's therapist, who I believe thought that you and I would be a good fit to work with them on this issue. Because that's what we do and two months earlier, Matteo had served up divorce papers, which obviously, Alicia was, was to say the very least devastated by. And so ultimately, that made the whole project and the possibility of the whole project very juicy for us. Because if we could get the turnaround that we were looking for, that would be I feel quite a dramatic thing to share in a podcast.

Rohini Ross  05:29
And I do want to hasten to add that I don't really think we went in with a strong agenda that we had to turn it around. Would you say like, we're not attached to outcomes with couples, we really trust that they're going to come to a place of equanimity within themselves and then make the decisions from there?

Angus Ross  05:49
Yeah, I mean, I was just, you know, trying to employ a creative license for dramatic.

Rohini Ross  05:56
Or maybe you do go in with an agenda?

Angus Ross  05:58
No, no. I mean, ultimately, yes, we'll probably have a much more effective product if things can turn around. So that would be nice. I can't say absolutely. categorically, I can say that. Yeah, we're not going within with an agenda when we work with a couple. All we can do is point them in the right direction, and hopefully, wisdom will prevail, and better decisions will be made. But yeah, I don't think it ever pays dividends to think that, you know, we can go in and fix this problem. And that's that's the end result that we're looking for. But yeah, I mean, in this sense, we'll have a product at the end of it. That will be much better and much more interesting. If we get the turnaround, but that we are anticipating better say.

Rohini Ross  06:42
I know, but what if we don't keep listening now, and they don't know? 

Angus Ross  06:46
Oh, watch this space and see what happens.

Rohini Ross  06:56
So even though Matteo had served the divorce papers to Alicia, yeah, he was ambivalent, he wasn't completely committed to the divorce. And throughout that two month period, they stayed living together, although he did withhold romantic and sexual gestures because he didn't want to lead her on or give the wrong message. Or give her a sense of hope that he wasn't actually feeling. But I do want to say that even though he made that very bold and strong statement there, there was still some wiggle room for him. And for Alicia, because he had done that she really felt like she was walking on eggshells the whole time because she was very committed to the marriage. And she felt like any wrong move that she made would result in him saying, Yeah, that's it. I'm following through on this.

Angus Ross  07:51
Yeah, I mean, I get the sense as far as Matteo is concerned that this is something that he thought was kind of like an ace up his sleeve, a card he can play that will hopefully change things around to his way of seeing things or to his liking, at least. And obviously, I guess that backfired. And I'm talking about serving up the divorce papers. So I think it got to the point where Alicia started talking about this with a therapist that when it came to this conclusion that they would try working with us in his mind. I think it was a last resort, kind of like the last chance sell on as it were.

Rohini Ross  08:28
Actually think it's the last chance saloon. 

Angus Ross  08:32
I beg to differ. I think it's salon. 

Rohini Ross  08:35
I think it's saloon 

Angus Ross  08:36
Salon. Doesn't sound right, saloon. Well, last chance saloon. 

Rohini Ross  08:42
We'll have to look it up. Alright.

Angus Ross  08:46
Okay, well, I will reserve judgment until you get back.  So anyway, moving swiftly on. We thought that we would share this journey with Alicia and Matteo. That would hopefully end up being something ultimately they might be able to resolve their differences and find their way back to what we would hope would be that natural rewilded state, we are looking in the direction to hopefully facilitate the process of rewilding this relationship back into its loving natural state. And that's ultimately what we want to do. And hopefully, the byproduct of that is that they will find that place and will walk off into the sunset and everyone will be happy, even the listeners of this podcast. We will see. But yeah, we're not attached to outcomes.

Rohini Ross  09:52
And when we say how love can be wild and in relationships where we're using the metaphor of rewilding that it is oftentimes used to refer to nature, where you introduce a keystone species like the wolves in Yellowstone Park, where they had been absent for years. And then you reintroduce them and the whole environment of the relationship. I mean, the whole environment changes as a result of the wolves being introduced. So for us, we're using that rewilding metaphor to demonstrate how even when it feels like love is lost and can't come back, that it can actually be reintroduced in rewilding. 

Angus Ross  10:32
Yes, I think it may be worthwhile to actually elaborate on this rewilding metaphor a little bit further because what actually happened and why we were inspired by this particular experiment that took place in Yellowstone Park, was that what happened when a pack of wolves were reintroduced into the park vicinity, the deer that were once rampant and we're really decimating all the foliage and really having a dramatic effect on the whole environment when the wolves were reintroduced, and the deer were naturally cold and far less inclined to hang out in the open. What happened is a whole bunch of other creatures and other you know, flora and fauna came back into prominence because they were not impacted by the deer. So what was so amazing about this whole experiment is actually changed the course of the river. But I don't want to go too deep into the ins and outs of it. But what I would say was that, or the will say, as the case may be, is that the wolves, what they ended up doing was restoring the park back into its pristine state. So ultimately, we found the park found its way back into a position of balance and harmony. And that's why we love the idea of using this as a metaphor because that's kind of where we're really trying to help our couples get to in terms of their relationship. We're trying to help them restore the relationship back into its pristine state, a state of natural balance and natural harmony. 

Rohini Ross  12:06
And I think it's really important to note what you're saying is so key because it's the restoration process, which means that the innate harmony, love well being is actually already there and that we can support them by bringing that back to life. And I love that story about the wolves in Yellowstone Park. And so we can include a link to the video by George Monbiot. That explains in more detail what happened there. Okay, well, let's start hearing from Alicia and Mateo. Now. First off, we're going to hear from Alicia and she's going to share about how she and Mateo met.

Alicia  12:56
So we met when we were 18 at Auburn University. Yeah, um, we live in the same dorm. But we weren't really friends. We're friends with a mutual friend of ours. Um, we have... after the first semester after finals, we remember this like once we started dating, we ended up sitting next to each other on the shuttle that takes us from the school to the Atlanta airport, which is about an hour and a half, two-hour drive. And we had like this whole conversation and we were enjoying each other, for sure. And then we got to the security line, and there was somebody behind us that played tennis for Auburn, that literally kept telling us that we were dating and we're like, no, we're not. like we're really not. Um, and then we, you know, he walked me in my gate, we gave each other hug and kiss goodbye. And that was it. And then didn't really ever see him really after that. I mean, we live in the same dorm. So I'd seen him but never really an interaction. And then, fast forward about four years later, he came to Miami to visit that mutual friend of ours, and I'm born and raised in Miami. So I'd gone over to the house where he was visiting for spring break, and I had gone and gone to hang out. And when I first saw him, I was just like, Whoa, like he had gotten taller. And, you know, just became a little bit more of a man and I always thought he was really cute. Um, but yeah, so anyway, I was just like, Whoa, it was like, hello. And that week, we ended up boyfriend and girlfriend, and now we're here. 

Rohini Ross  14:20
And so that was the long-distance part. So you're in Miami and he was in California? 

Alicia  14:24
Yeah. for about a year and some, because he had to finish school. I was already done. Right. And so I had started. I actually hadn't started working on it because I was gonna go to law school. So I was studying for the SATs, while writing. I was a ghost. I was ghostwriting a book about a family friend of ours. 

Rohini Ross  14:41
Oh, wow!

Alicia  14:42
Yeah. That was involved with the Cocaine Cowboys and the kingpins. Oh, wow. And so I was writing his story, which was really fascinating. So I was doing that at that time.

Rohini Ross  14:51
Let's say that's quite a romantic story for how they got together along the way.

Angus Ross  14:58
Yeah, so far, so good. Not anything terribly wrong with that picture? As far as I can see.

Rohini Ross  15:04
Is there anything wrong with that picture? 

Angus Ross  15:06
That's what I just said? 

Rohini Ross  15:07
You said, there's not much terribly wrong.

Angus Ross  15:09
 No, there's nothing wrong.

Rohini Ross  15:11
And Alicia did shift gears and she decided not to pursue law school. And so she's gonna share a little bit more about that here.

Alicia  15:21
And so I kind of just like reevaluated the what I was going to do and started working in Miami, while he was in school, and then came out to California, over Christmas and New Years. Before we hit like a year, yes, I came out for Christmas and stuff. And I don't know,  I always felt like we were really passionate and affection and loved each other. beyond belief. I mean...

Rohini Ross  15:44
Yeah...

Alicia  15:45
We said I love you literally on our first date. So, um, he had asked me if I would ever move out. And I was just like, yeah, and at this point, I'm like, What? 23? So I really don't know. Anything that I'm doing. But I took a leap of faith. 

Rohini Ross  16:00
Yeah. And so you moved out. And did you get together at that point? 

Alicia  16:04
Yeah. 

Rohini Ross  16:05
Yeah. So and so that was in May? 

Alicia  16:07
Yes. So after Christmas happened. I'm sorry. In May he graduated. And then I came out in August. 

Rohini Ross  16:13
Got it. Yeah. 

Alicia  16:15
And we immediately I mean, that's what he wanted. He wanted us to move in together and start our lives together. And I had said, first I was like, Well, I can get my own place. And we can figure this out. We don't rush anything. He was like, Nope, that's what I want. I want us to live together. I want us to be together. I want us to go through the struggle. What he said was to go through the struggles of life together and figure things out. There's like, okay,

Rohini Ross  16:36
So I would say it sounds like things are still going really well, on this journey together. 

Angus Ross  16:41
Yes, Hunky Dory.

Rohini Ross  16:44
And now we'll hear that you know, they did have some financial difficulties when Alicia moved out to California to be with Matteo. So she'll share a little bit about that here. 

Angus Ross  16:55
Hunky Dory! I can't believe I just said that. I think David Bowie song?  I can't even know where that comes from. 

Rohini Ross  17:01
We're gonna have to look up that term to be will. 

Angus Ross  17:04
Yes, we can have some footnotes in this podcast. 

Rohini Ross  17:09
Yeah, they're called show notes.

Angus Ross  17:10
Show notes. 

Rohini Ross  17:12
All right, back to Alicia.

Alicia  17:13
So when we first started out, um, he ended up losing his job. And I was an attempt because I really didn't have any experience out here. And I just worked really hard. And so for the first three years of me living out here, every expense was on me, I took care of the household. We didn't have a dining room table for nine months in our first apartment, we ate on our coffee table, and we didn't have the couch for the first one, right? All the things my parents didn't want me to experience. But I was happy to do it. Because I was worried about them. And trust me, we lived in a shithole it was gross. Now as he got on his feet about two years ago, two, three years ago. It started out slow. I didn't. He didn't, he wasn't 5050 it was more like 8020 in the sense, just that he can feel comfortable on his feet. And I think a little bit of that definitely put detriment on our relationship because I definitely used it against him when I would get angry. And he would use it against himself and me.

Rohini Ross  18:22
So based on what Alicia is sharing, now, we can really hear where some of the stress and tension is starting to show up for her in the relationship. 

Angus Ross  18:35
Yes, possibly a few little cracks in the masonry.

Alicia  18:40
I just feel like I'm so underappreciated. 

Rohini Ross  18:43
Yeah, I hear that.

Alicia  18:44
Like, I go grocery shopping. He gets mad at me if I leave for a work trip and I haven't gone and filled up the groceries like all the groceries because then he'll call me and be like, Well, you've abandoned me and oh, I just chocolate and I was like, I didn't have a chance to go but you're an adult like you can go. Like I remember I was on the plane. This is a year ago in our dog ran out of food. And he like was... and I have Wi-Fi on the plane so I was able to text and I... he like held that against me and it was like... you're on the ground like you can drive 15 minutes, 10 minutes to go to PetSmart buy food. But no, I had to Amazon Prime now it to him because God forbid, you know, he had to do something. It's like, I take care of everything. And I just, I don't mind taking care of. I love doing that. And then I feel like that's what I was supposed to do as a wife. And I enjoy it. Do even my friends say like How he can you make me think that I have to be a better wife to my husband like you do everything? And it's like... I gladly and passionately do that. But it's like I never get a thank you. Where's who unload the dishwasher or take out the trash like once in a blue moon and like thank you so much.

Rohini Ross  19:55
Feeling appreciated is definitely one of the key issues. Alicia brings up is one of her concerns about the relationship. And I would say that that's a very common theme that often comes up in the couples that we work with where one or both parties feel that the other person isn't demonstrating appreciation in a way that they want to they want or that they can actually receive it. And so that was something that was definitely on her mind as she came into this intensive. 

Angus Ross  20:26
Yeah, and I guess another way of saying that is these people can feel disrespected, unappreciated, disrespected, really kind of amount to the same thing. 

Rohini Ross  20:36
What do you mean that? What did you say? Respect?

Angus Ross  20:41
Disrespect, disrespect. Yes. disrespect and feeling unappreciated. I feel like they're their significant bedfellows. I feel like being unappreciated, has this standard or expectation to be treated in a way that is respectful based on my standards and expectations.

Rohini Ross  21:08
Okay, I guess I never would have sort of lumped them together the way that you just did. But I can see how they're related. And I can see how they both are a reflection of the individual's expectations not being met. And the other thing that Alicia is really having a hard time with is the uncertainty in the relationship, the threat of divorce has been very painful and difficult for her to navigate, not knowing what's happening. And that's something that's really been on her mind as well. 

Alicia  21:43
The constant uncertainty and the constant... Now, I guess not so much accusatory, but like little things that are said to me, that is like, throw me out of like, like, it's a trigger that throws me out of spiral or things like saying uncertainty, and I'm like, I didn't get married to like, have uncertainties. Like it's not meant to be, it's not this competition. And I feel like, he's kind of made it a competition with me several aspects, to the point that I've said stuff like, you're not going to win this one, or like it's being pushed to that regard. And so I'm having those explosions because I'm like, I'm literally overthinking every last thing, and it's driving me mad. . And then I feel like I'm walking on eggshells because of that. So like, I feel like I'm a prisoner.

Rohini Ross  22:27
Here, not only are the cracks showing up, but you can also recognize that Alicia does have some recognition of her volatility in the relationship. But based on how she sees the circumstances that she's in, she feels quite justified, that's a reaction that would be normal to have in these circumstances, given the duress that she feels she's under. And we'll hear more about this along the way. But this next tiny clip just also shows how she sees her volatility, not just as a negative, angry outbursts, but she, she really embraces her passionate nature. And so she kind of sees it as all wrapped together, and not really a bad thing. 

Alicia  23:21
At least that I know if he fell in love with me for who I am because I was a crazy, loud, passionate person.

Rohini Ross  23:28
Well, I think that gives us some great background information from Alicia, what do you think? Should we listen to Matteo? Now? 

Angus Ross  23:35
Yeah, let's see what Matteo has to say.

Mateo  23:40
There is volatility from day one.

Angus Ross  23:42
From day one... 

Mateo  23:43
And the initial volatility that took place was her family. You know, I remember the first day that like she and I reconnected, we're in Miami, she came over to my buddy's house, and, you know, we're there sitting down laughing, smiling. And the first phone call she picked up was her dad, and he was screaming, and she was just pretending like, everything was, you know, Jerry and whatever it is, again, not knowing that everyone could hear him yelling on the phone, at the table with every like, right to the moment where the speaker is a lot louder than what the person thinks. And they're just pretending like Yeah, sure. Yeah, Dad, I'll be home soon. Right. 

Angus Ross  24:24
Why is he yelling?

Mateo  24:26
God knows why. I don't know. I don't know why I think it was just wanted her home for some reason, although it was probably not even like 6 pm whatever. But so... then we so I went back that happened on a spring break, and I remember leaving and being like, Hey, you know, I want to, I want this to work out and I want to commit to you and, and so we did the long-distance until the rest of the year. Then I came for the summer and I mean, the summer was one big ball of emotions. She, I mean, there were issues with my buddy who else staying with that she, I'm not gonna put 100% blame on her, but kind of cultivated that issue. And there was also an issue with her and her family, to the point where she moved out in the middle of the summer, there was always a lot of turbulence. And that was just the first, I don't even know, like, eight months, maybe, right? and then I left for the summer. So upon all that her, you know, anger with the family going through whatever it may have been. There's also, you know, me always, I mean, she can tell you, her family tells you, I've always been pushing her towards family, family, family family, because I didn't grow up with much family here, My family is in Argentina. So we got in a lot of fights because of that, because, you know, I would always try to present a different perspective into what was going on. And that's when the first time I ever heard you're never on my side, you don't, you know, you think I'm lying. Right? that. So then we left, that occurred many times throughout that summer, there was a lot of good times, too. So then I go back for preschool, and we're living a long-distance relationship. At that point, she had moved in with her grandparents. And again, you know, every day that we're talking on the phone, there's either drama about, you know, her, not directly her grandparents, because that was in the beginning. And she was like, Oh, my grandparents are so bad. But then I kind of pushed her, again towards family. So she ended up moving in with their grandparents. And then, you know, there's a whole issue with her parents and their siblings, that the fact that she went to go live with the grandparents, grandparents, I don't know their family dynamic, but it's rocky. And so there was always that, but there was always more than that because it was always me just trying to present a different point of view of how one can handle a situation that they're in and still be okay.

Angus Ross  27:15
So I know this is intake. And this is the early part of the whole experience. But it's easy to see for me how all of the stories that I'm hearing from Mateo ow is kind of, I get a sense looking through the lens of a very low mood. So although at one point, almost as a very brief aside, he says that there were good times too he's very much focusing on everything that he feels is wrong, or was wrong with the relationship at that particular time. And, you know, I can only imagine that you know, they didn't get together based on all their differences, they got together because that was a fundamental experience of love that they were engaged in. So it's interesting just to hear this whole laundry list of woes about how the relationship looked, you know, from what he's saying it appears doomed from the start.

Rohini Ross  28:17
Yeah, it's a very different telling of the backstory from his perspective and her perspective. And you're right, I think probably 99% of what he's saying is focused on the volatility, the conflict. And there's like 1%, where he said, yeah, we have some good times. And also, I think what comes forward, and this piece is where he sees himself as having the voice of reason. She's going through all of these troubles, these conflicts, these difficulties, and he's the one that's helping her to stay on track. That's part of what I'm hearing. 

Angus Ross  28:57
Yeah, no, very much so but he has, as it seems blatantly obvious to me that he's got into this habitual low mood about what the relation look relationship looks like. And those are the optics through which he's seeing it.

Rohini Ross  29:12
Yeah, well, let's hear a bit more from him, shall we?

Mateo  29:17
Uh, moving on from all this stuff. Right. So right? I'm really trying. I love the girl. I know that there are episodes and moments and I'm not in love with but I'm thinking okay, well, there's an issue with her family. Once we cross that border, right there won't that won't exist any longer. And then it came to the long-distance relationship where again, a lot of our communication was what I like to call pitching, is complaining. I mean, it was so I still saw the person that I loved and just realize that this is a piece that I have to, you know, take on until you actually figure some shit out. Right? And then it just, you know, we had the long-distance relationship and then she ended up moving over once I graduated from school, then the issue became, you know, I don't have any friends here, you're settled here. Which is, is legitimate, and she didn't have any friends. Which is true. So I mean, I again, you know, that justified her actions, you know, in between those moments where it was full-on blowouts, whatever it may be, you're spending too much time with your friends, not me. Saying horrendous things about my friends at the moment, which I've let her come to terms with later on earlier this year, or later last year, rather, since we're in the new year. So there were these blows, but I justified it with, hey, she just moved out here. If she doesn't have any friends, she's not comfortable, blah, blah, blah. Well, she got comfortable. She has friends. She has more friends than I do. All my friends moved away. I literally come home. It's me, her and I have one other friend that lives in town. Everyone else gone. I've got no one though  I don't hold that against, I'm not acting out or lashing out because I only have one friend available. I'm not doing that. So then, you know, now the excuse for all the outburst was, well, who am I this girl who moved out from Florida for her boyfriend and you know, without a ring on her finger. Right? So then the pressure for the marriage started coming and she leaned on that excuse heavily for the way, you know, she was speaking to me. I'm not saying that I was the saint in the relationship, right. But there was a lot that was justified on her end because we weren't engaged. Okay. So then, right? There's obviously situations in between. But then we get engaged. Okay, perfect. I'm thinking, Okay, we're engaged, like, I'm gonna get the girl that I want all the time. 

Angus Ross  32:02
I mean, I really don't trust the narrative. Because it seems like he must, it feels like he must have spent a long time in probably, as I've said before, in this sort of perpetual low mood. And in that state, he's just allowed himself to marinate in this very dark and negative looking narrative. That is painting this very bleak and dim pitch of their relationship. But then it's just supposed with this little snippet where he'll say, yeah, you know, and I really love the girl, I really want this to work, or what's that effect? So it just mistrusts, just the level of how elaborate the narrative is. Does that make sense?

Rohini Ross  32:49
Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying. And I love that line that he said at the very beginning. I love the girl. But I don't like the episodes, however, he said it. And, and I think that he really is, is demonstrating, you know, in his way that he does love Alicia, and he does want to be with her. But he finds the blowouts really problematic. That's what I'm hearing and what he's saying he finds them very difficult. And from what he's sharing, he did all of these things that he thought were the right things to do to prevent the blowouts. Like he thought if he gave her what she was asking for, then that would stop. And right at the very end, you know, those famous last words like, Great, now I'm gonna get the girl that I've always, you know, wanted the girl of my dreams. And it's just not a very realistic perspective. And I think one of the lessons for all couples, ourselves included, Angus, is to realize that we're not responsible for the other person's behavior. It's not on us to change them or fix them. And it's not going to be through our doing that we can make them different.

Angus Ross  34:07
Yeah, there's this quite a heavy victim mindset as far as Matteo is concerned, which was, which I noticed, I don't know what you think about that.

Rohini Ross  34:21
Well, I know what you mean. But when you say it that way, it feels like you're being a little bit hard on him.

Angus Ross  34:28
Oh, maybe so I, you know, I noticed that with it. You know, as far as I'm concerned, I can see when I get into a victim mindset, it just, it just feels a little bit. It just feels a little bit amplified to me at this point. 

Rohini Ross  34:40
Yeah. And he's, he's definitely feeling victimized by her I would agree.

Mateo  34:46 
Then, again, it was issues with my friends or family for some reason. And it's not just my friends or family. I mean, she'll tell you or she won't tell you but she's lost her two best friends over the course of two years due to her the way that she spoke to them, right? But I'm not going to get into that, because that's not my story to tell. But what, uh, what afterward we had gotten engaged in, in now, you know the story change where it's like, oh, I'm just a stupid girl who got engaged this guy that can leave her at any moment. Okay, well, God, like I just, I just got engaged because I didn't want to go through all this stuff. The engagement to me is a promise to marry like, we're getting married, where every time our family everything, but she took it as, Oh, this is just another way for you to postpone like the inevitable, just like oh, my God, like what's going on here? Right. So then, obviously, there were blowouts there and things were said that you know, one cant just easily forgets, you know, and so, you know, at that moment, I really didn't even want to get married, really. Were engaged and I'm like, this is never going to end and, then it became like this guilt trip. And oh, you know, it's because we're not married, blah, blah, blah, I became this guilt trip where I was I got it, I really did have to figure out if I'm ever going to get this girl of my dreams that I know that she can be she has glimpses of, you know, I got to follow this through, I wasn't going to pull the plug, even though like deep down inside, I was like, this is a fucking lost cause. Sorry for cursing. 

Angus Ross  36:31
No, don't worry. 

Mateo  36:32
Um, so, we got married and this thing just never ended. It was just always this turbulent relationship. And it was one thing or another, whether now it was a pressure having babies or having... you just name it, you know, and it's what I'm thinking, like, I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life, like, I just married this girl, I let her, my family, her family on our friends, everyone.

Angus Ross  37:06
I mean, I listen to that. And I just don't know if I really trust the sentiment, because, you know, maybe he thinks all of the above and that he may have made the biggest mistake of his life. But I guess time will tell. I just feel like, you know, as I said before, and I don't want to sound like a scratch record. This just seems like a very low mood talking. And if that's the case, yeah, we've got, we've got plenty of opportunity to, to see where this can go in a more positive thing. But you know, maybe... who knows if I'm going to take it at face value. All that he's saying looks like the relationship is doomed. But just I don't know, I just don't trust it. 

Rohini Ross  37:53
Well, with the way that he's describing things, it really is clear that from his perspective, Alicia is the one with the problem and, he's the reasonable one just trying to navigate being with this irrational woman. And if she could only see how reasonable he is, then things would be fine. And there wouldn't be any of this conflict or volatility or blow-ups. And, again, as you're saying, you're skeptical of the narrative that he's giving. I think that it's clearly real and true for him. And it's not the full picture.

Angus Ross  38:36
Yeah, not the full picture. And, and we'll see where this leads. I'm very curious about it at this point.

Rohini Ross  38:49
Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there. 

Angus Ross  39:00
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross  39:06
 If you would like to learn more about our work and their online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org

Angus Ross  39:14
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.