Awaken to Love

EP2: Playing the Blame Game

• Angus & Rohini Ross • Season 1 • Episode 2

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The blame game is in full effect as Alicia and Mateo each have their very separate realities and see the other party as wrong. Mateo blames Alicia’s temper for his habit of shutting down, and Alicia blows up when she feels like she’s the only responsible one in the relationship or the only one who cares. Their lack of empathy and understanding about the other person's point of view results in their polarization. This wedge between them helps them stay convinced that the other’s behavior is the cause of their suffering -- can Rohini and Angus help them find understanding?

From narrow and self-focused perspectives, Alicia and Mateo justify their actions. From this state of mind, their thinking is distorted and they can’t see the whole picture. As they move toward more open-minded and open-hearted feelings, they gain the opportunity to see each other differently.  Once they arrive in this space of greater trust, they access a more well-rounded perspective. The quality of their relationship actually reflects the quality of their individual states of mind.

This episode explores:

  • The current status of Alicia and Mateo’s relationship.
  • How Alicia and Mateo tell the tale of two different relationships.
  • How a desire to protect optics in the face of friends and family can get in the way of being honest about what they are going through.
  • How challenging it is for the relationship when both people feel discouraged.
  • The importance of each person in the relationship having their own insight and transformation.
  • The important role that the individual state of mind plays in order to open up to new possibilities.
  • Initial sessions with Alicia and Mateo to begin hearing both sides.
  • How common it is, and how detrimental it is, to keep a laundry list of woes.
  • How many couples play the blame game.
  • The challenges associated with volatility in relationships.
  • How painful a lack of understanding can be.
  • The negative impact of judgment in relationships.

Podcast music: Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area.

Ep. 2 includes selections from Violet/Balance and Blue/Calm

Show Notes:
Agent provocateur: one employed to associate with suspected persons and by pretending sympathy with their aims to incite them to some incriminating action. Also a British lingerie retailer.

Wood for the trees: If someone can't see the wood for the trees in British English, or can't see the forest for the trees in American English, they are very involved in the details of something and so they do not notice what is important about the thing as a whole.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They work with couples who are struggling and couples who would like to deepen the love and intimacy they already have. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.

Angus Ross:

Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross:

This is episode number two, continuing our introduction of Alicia and Mateo.

Mateo:

I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.

Alicia:

I didn't get married to like have uncertainties. I always felt like we were really passionate and affectioned and love each other beyond belief. I mean, we said I love you literally our first date.

Mateo:

I love the girl. I know that there's episodes and moments that I'm not in love with.

Rohini Ross:

The innate harmony, love wellbeing is actually already there.

Angus Ross:

Hunky-Dory, I can't believe I just said that!

Mateo:

I think I'm gonna get the girl that I want all the time.

Alicia:

In any given moment, his vibe just changes. It's like boom, like you hate me. All of a sudden.

Angus Ross:

Feisty she is!

Mateo:

I want to be all in. I want nothing more than to have this affectionate, romantic relationship.

Angus Ross:

He's decided that he's got the moral high ground, and she's absolutely batshit crazy.

Alicia:

I'm tired of being the only responsible one. I almost feel like I'm the man.

Rohini Ross:

The quality of the relationship is actually a quality of the state of mind of the individuals in the relationship

Alicia:

I don't understand where things went wrong.

Angus Ross:

You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross:

and me Rohini Ross

Angus Ross:

Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross:

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded. Listen in as we guide a real couple back to their natural state of love,

Angus Ross:

Relax, and enjoy the show. Enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross:

Well, in the last episode, we heard about Alicia and Mateo. How they met, we heard some of the backstory. And we got to see how they have even differing opinions. Based on their history together, Alicia's is a much more rosy, optimistic remembering, whereas Mateos is a lot more troubled and he demonstrates a lot more concern. And in this episode, we're looking at more current times, and we're going to find out more about what's going on with them currently in their relationship.

Angus Ross:

The Tale of Two Cities, or the tale of two relationships, as it were

Rohini Ross:

One relationship from two points of view. Okay, so let's hear from Mateo now.

Mateo:

This really hit home two months ago, where she's like, you're not going to win this argument. And we weren't even talking about anything that was like, you know, about us. It was about God knows what, but I just remember that stuck with me. And I was like, You know what, you just hit the nail on the head. And like, that's, that's what our relationship is, is this. You're right, I'm wrong type of vibe. And that's not what I want to be in.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, it's quite funny that he uses that term hits the nail on the head, in terms of that being this sort of, in this sort of situation of, you're right, I'm wrong. When, as far as I can tell, up until this point, it really feels as though Matteo thinks he's, you know, as I said, before, has is occupying the moral high ground. And if only Alicia would change, then there will be the opportunity for this relationship to fix itself. So it's very much a case in my mind that he's seeing that Alicia is wrong and he's right.

Rohini Ross:

And he gives the very definitive timeline of two months ago when the divorce papers were served. It sounds like shortly after that, and it's, it's funny how these small incidents are like the straw that breaks the camel's back, that there was that small incident that, given the timeline he's sharing here is probably what pushed him over the edge and then had him go to that extreme reaction of getting the divorce papers ready. Okay, well, we've heard both of them share some of the backstory to the relationship. And we're going to continue to hear from Alicia and Mateo now, but more related to the current state of affairs in the relationship.

Alicia:

It is a happy home and you know, we have a dog that we should early in my opinion, it's a happy home, and I am happy 90% of the time, there's 10% of the times that I'm either upset with our current situation, because in any given moment, his vibe just changes and it's like, boom, like, you hate me, all of a sudden, I'm like, Whoa, where did we get there We were laughing five seconds ago. And so that's kind of like where I've been a little bit like it's gotten in my head, I've overthought like a lot of stuff now, and I'm not that person, I've gotten to a point where I'm like, a little insecure. And that sucks. But um, yeah, I think we see it differently. I think he sees it as the disgruntled roommate, whereas I see it as like, this is my home and my happy family. And like, there are moments that's going to be bad, marriage is not easy. And relationships aren't easy. And I think sometimes he has this depiction of love and life as this little bit of a lala land where everybody's just madly in love, and there's no issues and there's flying unicorns and stuff like that. And I'm like, that doesn't exist, like reality is, we are going to be faced with things daily. And it's how you approach them. And if you choose to face that issue, and acknowledge it and be upset in that moment, but then move on. I think that's very healthy. And I think that's reality. I don't think it'd be. I don't I think he has this facade of seeing on social media, all these happy couples and such. Or in life in the you don't know what happens on...

Mateo:

I don't talk about social media. But keep going. Yeah.

Alicia:

okay, I'm sorry. So then, behind closed doors, you don't truly know what couples are going through. But in our faces, yeah, we have our friends that are like loving couples and everything. But I've also seen our friends have some blowout fights too. And I don't think that he gets to see that and see that there's a lot of normalcy to all of that. It's not just me being this problem.

Rohini Ross:

One of the themes that really jumped out at me was seeing the different ways that Alicia and Mateo viewed the relationship. And so as we listen to Alicia, here, we hear that she really sees the relationship as a good relationship. It's normal. Yeah, they have a little bit of conflict from time to time. But that's nothing to worry about. And as you listen to her, it becomes clear that in her mind, Mateo has these unrealistic expectations for relationship. And that's really what needs to change for the relationship to get better,will you say?

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I was a little bit suspicious at the time. And, you know, in deference to separate realities that, but Alicia was consciously saying all the right things. And it sounded like, you know, she could see how this was pretty normal, healthy relationship in the way that you know, you can't go through married life without getting into conflict once in a while. And that Mateo is making a big deal out of it. So yeah, early days, but you know, very much in case I am sure of separate realities, as we wouldn't be in this situation wouldn't be doing this intensive. So I'm looking forward to seeing what Mateo has to say, because I'm sure it's going to contrast what has just been to the table at this point. But I do get a sense just kind of like saying all the right things, we haven't really got down and dirty yet.

Rohini Ross:

You're acting as if you don't know what happened.

Angus Ross:

I try to keep it. I'm trying to be tantalizing about it. But but I do think that, you know that this is a case of, you know, I feel like at this point we are we're really well, I guess we haven't really pulled back the curtain yet.

Rohini Ross:

So are you saying Do you remember feeling skeptical about what she was saying? At the time?

Angus Ross:

I felt like yeah, it's like, I remember when I felt like when we were in, we went through therapy, when men went through merit marital therapy, I felt like you always had the right surgical or psychological terminology to use. And I felt like that sort of "Oh, she's really ingratiating herself towards this therapist". I'm kind of like, I'm losing my edge here.

Rohini Ross:

Gee, I dont think that's not what she was doing...

Angus Ross:

I guess I was having a bit of a flashback there. It's like she was like, it was like, portraying a relationship that was already in pretty good shape. She wasn't really, you know, getting into the getting into the weeds as it were, which is something that you know, in my experience doing these intensives we often find ourselves in a situation when we first get together with a couple and it's very much a case that the laundry list of woes comes out. And that's not what this look like at all. This is like you know, his his relationship is pretty normal and healthy. And we do get into trouble once in a while.

Rohini Ross:

So it for you, it felt kind of like she was being A student and yeah, not being authentic.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. Like you'd like to be the A student.

Rohini Ross:

All right.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. It's like you like you being the teacher's pet. She's been a bit like a teacher's pet in my mind. That's probably really unfair. But that's kind of how I feel.

Rohini Ross:

Well, we are getting here from a ton now and yes, you're right. He does have a different and, you know, for him the the conflict is not something that feels normal, and it's renowned really feels very turbulent for him. So what we'll get to hear from him now.

Mateo:

I want to be all in. I want nothing. More than to have this affectionate romantic relationship where you know, you, you're with your best friend, I want that. But it seems like a lot of the time, it's two friends, I get in a fight and can't get over it and he should spend the day apart. Right? That's a lot of our days should be like, Hey, we should take a break and set it apart. So the things that I want are really aligning with what's taking place in our relationship. And that's where, you know, I feel this confusion in emptiness of like, what am I doing right now? Like, is it ever going to get better?

Angus Ross:

Yeah, from what you can hear, he sounds pretty discouraged. And then he continues to speak in those terms.

Mateo:

I think it's been a combination of the way that we talk to each other that kind of made it numb, you know, even to the point where it's like, you know, reading cards, birthday cards, Christmas cards, anything like that doesn't mean anything to me, because I know the next day, there's going to be something that totally wipes out every word that was in those sentences.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, so listening to Mateo, I get the sense that in his world, his separate reality, but they are very much in a constant state of discord. And that that would definitely not be in alignment with what Alicia shared. And that. Yeah, it seems like as far as the relationship is concerned, Mateo state of mind is not a particularly positive one, he's got very much into a habitual pattern of thinking around what the relationship looks like. And he doesn't seem or sound like he's very hopeful at this point.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, he definitely sounds very discouraged. And he also in his comments is saying this has been going on since before we even got married. This has been going on since before we were engaged, this has been going on since we were dating long distance. So in his mind, he's saying this as a long term challenge that it isn't just sort of something that's come to a head recently.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, it seems pretty dim and bleak at this point, as far as he's concerned anyway.

Rohini Ross:

So we really have Alicia, who's sounds very optimistic about the relationship and doesn't really see what the big deal is. And then we have Matteo who's very downhearted, and really just doesn't see me, we have a lot of hope, feeling pretty dismal about the relationship. So there's two people seeing it very differently. So after we had this group meeting with the four of us, we then split up, and we did most of the work as one on one with Alicia Mateo. And we do the couples work separately, for a lot of the relationship intensives that we do, because it really gives the individuals the opportunity to share what's on their mind, not be concerned about what the other person is going to think about it. So they can be really open. But we also recognize that the most important part of the work is that the individuals have a transformation that they experience and that the quality of the relationship is actually a quality of the the state of mind of the individuals in the relationship. So that's one of the reasons that we split up so that we can really help each person achieve a new level of understanding within themselves.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and I also think, you know, you'll absolutely agree with this, I'm sure is that we, we work with them individually, because at the very beginning, when we do give them the freedom to speak their mind, as it were, generally there's a whole laundry list of woes and, and in that experience, the feeling tanks. And what we're finding is that that really, the shift, if it's going to happen will happen when there is a better feeling when there's a better feeling. People are much more open to having insights and can get perspective and contest and can see they're much better equipped to see how they can move forward. But in that experience, that laundry list of woes really at people obviously going to kick that kind of more than likely be quite reactive. And it's very difficult to hear when your partner is kind of slamming you every time. And that's really there's just really nothing fruitful that can come out of it. And we do allow obviously we need to start there. But in a sense, that's not where the magic happens.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, that there is a kindness in the design of separating couples that at this point, your aim.

Angus Ross:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

So we're going to kick off next then with me when meeting with Alicia and this is going to be our initial meeting or I sit down with her one on one. And you're going to hear that, you know, she gets pretty emotional about how stressful it's been for her. And she really can't understand how they got to this place. And the relationship that, you know, she finds herself in right now.

Alicia:

Sorry, I'm a little excited.

Rohini Ross:

Just let it all out.

Alicia:

Yeah. It just been like rough with them. Like, there's not something that transpired. Which is what's the most confusing because I don't know, like, usually I'm a very, I'm very type A. So I know, I can figure things out and I can figure out like, what happens. So that's why this is throw me for a loop because like, I don't understand where things went wrong. Um,

Rohini Ross:

do you want to Kleenex, there's some over there.

Alicia:

I did not want to cry today. I feel as though it was all of a sudden,

Rohini Ross:

yeah, yeah. So just tell me your experience.

Alicia:

I feel like it was all of a sudden I feel like and

Rohini Ross:

When was this?

Alicia:

I feel like the tipping point was in August when I went back to back traveling for two events. And then he went to South Dakota for work. And my issue has always been when I travel was like the he doesn't care to know where I'm at , what state I'm in, or what hotel I'm on, like, and I'm a five foot two woman like by myself in a hotel room. I'm yeah, and I'm just like alone for an extended period of time in a hotel room and or working long hours, and it's stressful. And when I want to call him and talk to him at the end of the day, it's like quick like, Okay, well, you know what, I'm gonna watch TV and calm down. And then I'm gonna go to bed. And I'm like, three minute conversation out of the 24 hour day, and I've been gone for an extended period of time and like, like, he kind of feels like home to me. So I was like, I wanted to like talk to him.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah.

Alicia:

And so we started fighting a lot. And then a lot of it was because of him not wanting to communicate with me while I was on the road and me feeling like you don't know where I'm going like, you don't know what plane I'm on. You don't know any of that. And that's just so hurtful. And I grew up with a family that probably over communicates then what's needed.

Rohini Ross:

So you used a very different style.

Alicia:

Yeah. And I'm used to a lot of passion and love and fights as well. Like my parents. Yes, they fought in front of us, but nothing to the point that's like, extreme but also in my siblings, and I fight like that's just what it is. But then we two seconds later Kissin makeup or when the going gets tough like I remember in, in high school, middle school, like my brother and sister were all tears apart. And we went to school that was like kindergarten through 12th. And I remember like, one day my sister and I are like in this blow up fight. I don't even know about what it could have been like a hair scrunchie I swear. So it's so stupid. And I remember in that moment, someone was picking on her whatever. And me and my brother just like jumped in on that. And I remember everybody's saying like, Whoa, you don't mess up. It's like, jeez. And that's kind of like how I've always viewed like, because we're so passionate. And when you're passionate, sometimes you don't state things the right way or, or act the right way accordingly. But I've always just dropped things.

Angus Ross:

Feisty she is! She definitely comes across as somebody who wears their heart on their sleeve. And is painting a picture of quite a passionate young woman. And evidently, from what she what she shared, Matteo is finding that problematic from time to time. And but yeah, nevertheless, I think that she takes great pride in the fact that that's how she's showing up in this world. And obviously, she has a family that perhaps support that, that that kind of behavior, and that it's maybe a little bit jarring for a husband. But time will tell we'll see she obviously, you know, as we all do, we always want it we all want to connect but the connection, I don't know if that's being compromised by level of passion. But that's something that she needs. She feels like that's not being nurtured in a way that's healthy for her. But I'm curious to see where this is gonna go in terms of what Matteo is gonna have to share on this front.

Rohini Ross:

What do you mean about not being nurtured in a way that's healthy for her?

Angus Ross:

I feel like she's, um, she's wanting to connect. And, and for whatever reason, it's hard for Matteo to fulfill that need, at the level that she's she's wanting or whatever expectations that she has around that. It's not being is not being met. And I suspect that could be maybe something to do with volume control, resolve the level of passion got it, but he's perhaps from what she said. taking things a little too, personally. And that's maybe where the disconnection, perhaps it's coming from?

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, well, what we're doing here is we're we're allowing each of them to share their side. And your right from what she's saying she sees the issue in the relationship as the issue of lack of communication, lack of concern for her, that she's taking very personally, she finds that hurtful. And, you know, it's very clear from this example, that she sees her anger as just a healthy part of her passionate nature, that isn't a problem for the relationship, she doesn't see that as something that should threaten the relationship. In fact, from the example she gave, it sounds like she has that passionate conflict connected with love and intimacy. And so for her, that's normal. And we're going to hear from Matteo, but it sounds like for him, that's not normal. And Alicia seems to feel like he's just overly sensitive and needs to get over himself and be able to drop it the way that she just drops it and moves on. And she can't understand why he's not able to do that. And as we'll hear from Matteo, now, he doesn't find that refreshing to that she can just drop things, he actually finds that really crazy making that she's able to do that.

Mateo:

It's a storyline, I'm telling you like, it's really messed up, she wrote me a card on my birthday, 30, things like that I love about you that same day, blowout boom, like, I can't control it's obviously me being distant, right? It's causing her to feel this way, and create these blobs of it could be about anything, but I know what the underlying reason is, is because we don't feel connected as one. So you know, she, we had that blow up and and I just like, you know, laugh The next day, right? Because the next day, she wakes up clean slate she I don't know, it's like Groundhog Day, every day. It's not for her. For me. It's not like that. So I wake up the next day, and she's feeling alright, and I, you know, just like, Hey, you know what, you should probably read that card and think about yesterday how, you know, things and and she's reading and she's crying. And she's realizing, right, but and she's saying that she's saying sorry, when that happens all the time. That's not a one time occurrence that happens all the time where she says some really hurtful stuff. And the next morning wakes up crying, apologizing. But then two days later, we'll do the same thing.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, so I listened to that. And apart from anything else, it seems as though Mateo is keeping an inventory of all of Alicia's transgressions. And he's obviously taken her behavior very personally. And it almost seems as though he's just on the lookout for it. Now, it's got to a place where it's become so habitual, the lens through which he sees this relationship. And malicious behavior is kind of like, it's kind of like he's, he's gunning for it. He's looking for it at every available turn. And he's just, he's just not seeing how she's not responsible for. For his well being she's seen as this, this agent provocateur designed to mess with his well being.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, I definitely hear that as well, where Mateo feels as if Alicia's behavior is basically ruining his experience, and I think that's very common among couples, for that blame to come out. And, you know, I know that we have had that experience at times where we will blame each other for ruining our mood or, or doing something along those lines. And so I definitely hear that hear. And I also hear that, you know, he just sounds very discouraged by this and doesn't really see any possibilities in terms of where change might like where his experience might change, unless she changes her behavior when say,

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Rohini Ross:

And so, in terms of their communication, Matteo is really struggling with Elise volatility and her ability to get over her volatility. He's not able to drop it as easily. And it's, it's like he's basically holding a grudge hanging on to resentment.

Angus Ross:

Yes, absolutely. Because for some reason, best known to himself, he's decided that he's got the moral high ground, and she's absolutely batshit crazy.

Rohini Ross:

Well, that's one way that you could say it. I don't think I would say it that way. But I'll let you say that he does definitely paint a picture of Alicia being pretty unstable. And I think we'll, you know, as we listen to this next section where matea shares it does come through even more clearly they're where he really feels that he's right. And she's wrong that, yes, they do see things differently. And people live in separate realities, but his reality is the right one and her reality is the wrong crazy, irrational one

Mateo:

I'm more the realist in every situation, okay. I mean, you also got to think of what I do for a living, I do risk analysis. Right, right. And I do extensive background checks and people, I approach every situation like people are lying to me. So I mean, that's my nature.

Angus Ross:

Okay. So you feel like there? Is there a sense that sort of what Alicia was sharing this morning didn't feel particularly authentic to you or?

Mateo:

Not that it's not authentic? I don't know.

Angus Ross:

Just suspicious in some way.

Mateo:

No, not suspicious. Just. Sir. My reality is different.

Angus Ross:

All right. All realities are different, I guess.

Mateo:

Right. But I also can't acknowledge to when we, you know, like, if two people aren't getting along, right. I think a reasonable person would be like, Hey, we're not getting along. The other person just we're getting along. You're just not trying hard enough. And that's the big disconnect.

Rohini Ross:

Well, I think with this introduction to Alicia and Mateo, we're starting to be able to put the dots together in terms of how they're each seeing reality and what the differences are. Whereas Matteo is seeing alyssia as irrational and volatile, negative, difficult. Alicia Singh, Mateo is insensitive, unkind, uncaring, distant, and it's just becoming clearer and clearer how they're each seeing things differently and believing what they're seeing to be truth. And we've got this example of this incident that happened right before they came to see us. And each of them in their own sessions shares about that experience and, and in hearing them share about it, you get to see more clearly the lens through which they're looking at the relationship through.

Angus Ross:

Yes. They, they obviously have that very separate realities. And then in their separately separate realities. The other party is 100%. Wrong.

Rohini Ross:

Well, let's hear from Alicia now we'll hear her side.

Alicia:

I'm tired of being the only responsible one. I almost feel like I'm the man. Yeah. Okay. So in that relationship, and like, something like yesterday, where I've started getting turned off to like, just being in love and some. My girlfriend convinced me like not to be that way and sort of buy like a Valentine's Day card because I wasn't gonna do it. There's like he said, he doesn't want to open cards that that's not and she told me, she was just like, just do it. You know, what's the right thing? This is like the last try. And I was like, fine. I was like, I don't even want to do this. But okay. And I did. And they wrote just the guy. Happy Valentine's Day card. I got him a little, you know, heart chocolate. hmm. And he saw yesterday morning, and then came home, and was like, empty handed. And he came late, and he knew was a priority for us to get here. And he's telling me like when I called him and it's like, six something already. He's like, well, it's normal time for people to leave. And I told everybody that I had to leave early. I was like, This is not a normal time to leave. And that's not leaving early. And I was like, I thought this was a you know, priority. And then when he got home, and it was he was literally empty handed. He didn't even want to read the card. And until like, I exploded, of course, cuz I'm like, you could even pick a rose pedal off from the street, or take a piece of like printer paper and just write Happy Valentine's it like, it's like, it doesn't take much to make me happier. Make me feel good. Like if you scribbled on a piece of paper, Happy Valentine's Day came home with that, like I would have melted. Yeah, yeah. But then I said, I started yelling at him and like, you couldn't even go get me a card. You couldn't do nothing. And he's like, well, we're not a normal couple. So I don't want to do these things. And like, that's hurtful. Yeah. Because I know we're not normal right now. But I still went out of my way. Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah.

Alicia:

So it's like things like that where it's like I've never thought of like I'm the one that's always thinking taking care of him and cooking dinner. Be responsible. Yes. This has been for a long time. He doesn't think of me. He doesn't try to do something nice for me.

Angus Ross:

Okay, well, let's let's hear from Mateo now.

Mateo:

Yesterday, right Valentine's I didn't get a card. Stupid. She told me she didn't want to get me a car, one of her friends forced to give me a card. Okay, so why am I such an asshole for not buying a card, right? Just because I didn't have a friend who forced me to go buy a card. Okay, whatever, I'll live with it. But she wasn't going to come here. She was like, No, this is what you wanted. I was gonna actually come here to tell you that I wanted to divorce. Like, okay, whatever. She said, She's livid just like going up yelling, throwing shit, boom, boom, boom. And then I did I matched her intensity, and I hit her glass of wine off the table hit the wall shattered. That moment there. That's what she wanted to see. And right then she was like, Okay, fine. I'll go because I matched her intensity. Had I not? Had I been neutral. never would have happened. We never would have been here. But you wanted to see me angry? She wanted to know that. You know, I don't know what it is. Maybe it's because I don't show enough passion. She wanted to see that there was still passion fire within me. But it's, it's exhausting to me. I don't like doing that. Yeah, like getting angry. I used to be very angry. And now I try to just not be

Angus Ross:

Wow, two realities, that could not be more separate, I might say. The gloves are off, are they not in terms of what they're describing? Those two, two different polls. And they are very much polarized, it seems. And I guess that's why they're here doing business with us. And we'll see where this goes. But you know, you can see how they're both very caught up in their positions. And from those positions, never the twain shall meet, I say,

Rohini Ross:

Absolutely. And this incident that they describe, to me is, it's just following on from the theme of these whole two introductory episodes where we're kind of giving you the backstory, and helping you understand where they're at currently. But throughout all of that, you really get to hear their separate positions and separate points of view as they're discussing all of that. And I think it's really helpful to share that. Because when most couples get into trouble, they're oftentimes living in their separate reality, not having understanding about the other person's point of view. And, as you said, they get polarized and how they see things and it can get very narrow, focused and limited. And we we justify all of our behavior and actions based on that very limited point of view. And it becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I don't know, for me, I'm picking up on that term that use narrow focus, because what's interesting to me is that in the in the sharing, they are obviously getting into position or mindset or state of mind that's very adversarial, and judgmental. And that what we're pointing to is in that kind of state of mind, it's very hard to see how you can really summon up any kind of any kind of optics that would see the relationship in a positive manner. You know, they're not even, there's no way that he would get philosophical, if I guess a couple came to us. And it could be philosophical and neutral about where the relationship is working, is not working. So that would be a whole different story. But because the relationship is not working really, from this state of mind, that's what we really want to look at, we are trying to point our listeners and also this couple in the direction of them seeing how it's all about state of mind. So they're actually transposing their state of mind, on to the relationship or more importantly, on each other. So they're making the other party responsible for how they're feeling inside. And what we're going to attempt to do is flip that around, try and find a way for them to see how there's nothing about what's happening in the external world and particularly in the context of their relationship that is affecting their thinking about the relationship. So if we can somehow create a situation of understanding about that very feature, then that's really where we need to look. And that's kind of be you know, that's gonna be where we will take this this podcast, ultimately.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, we're gonna be looking more. Excuse me, in that direction in the next episode. And I also want to kind of highlight what you're saying about judgment and narrow focus judgment is another way of noticing that we're getting really narrow focused, and the more we are in judgment of ourselves or our partner, we can, we can feel that we can feel the limiting, constricting feeling of being in judgment. And as soon as we're in that state of mind, as you're saying, we're not seeing the full picture, our thinking is distorted. And when we're more open minded, open hearted, that feels very different to us. And we can trust that we're seeing a more well rounded viewpoint from that internal experience from that state of mind. And so when we're listening to Lacey Mateo, we can hear how caught up they've got in their own judgments toward each other toward themselves even. And they can't see clearly from that space, they're not able to even see themselves clearly and most importantly, their disconnect, disconnected from the deeper aspects of love, and compassion and empathy that really are the core qualities of who they are as human beings, who we all are as human beings. And so the more they move into judgment, the more anybody moves into a position of judgment, the further and further away they get from the experience of love and compassion and empathy, which are so crucial to relationships working.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, well said, I think that for me, yes, absolutely. It's this idea of finding a way to become open. I don't know, I like the idea of this narrow focus, because you can see how that's very much the antithesis of what it means to be open, to be open minded, and perhaps look at the relationship through a different lens. But this particular lens, which is so narrow, is not seeing the full picture is just seeing, you know, a picture that is really filled with dismay and heartache. And, and they can't really see the wood for the trees at this point.

Rohini Ross:

Mmhmm. That's a good expression. And so we're hoping that as you're listening to them share their experience that you're taking that into account that you're recognizing that the version that they're sharing is the version of the moment, it's the version that makes sense to them at this point in time, but it's not the only version is not even the only version they see is just the version that they see when they're not feeling very hopeful, and discouraged and downhearted. Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross:

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross:

If you would like to learn more about our work and our online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewilders.org

Angus Ross:

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.