Awaken to Love

EP3: Finding Common Ground

• Angus & Rohini Ross • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Though Alicia and Mateo are on guard with each other, Rohini and Angus begin to explore the deeper feelings of love and wellbeing present in both of them. Mateo vacillates between the loving feelings in his heart and the pestering thoughts in his mind, as Angus helps surface a glimmer of Mateo’s true feelings for Alicia. Alicia expresses her admiration for who Mateo is as a person -- she wishes he saw himself the way she sees him. Can they start to trust their wisdom over their judgments?  

As Alicia and Mateo struggle to find common ground, Angus and Rohini support them in recognizing the seeds of love that are still present and ready to be rewilded. 

This episode explores:

  • How Alicia and Mateo’s experiences are subjective and a reflection of their mood in the moment, not the other person.
  • How both Alicia and Mateo feel justified in their positions and decide the other person is responsible for their suffering.
  • Finding the seeds of love in the relationship and bringing them into focus to support the rewilding of love.
  • How Alicia and Mateo need to remember what love looks like and to arrive at seeing where there is still love in the relationship, rather than focus on what's not working.
  • What is going to help Alicia and Mateo find common ground?
  • Inner wisdom always points us toward love.
  • Holding space for the innate wisdom, well-being, and love in each of us to unfold.
  • The importance of where you are coming from when entering a conversation.
  • How it is easy to make up our own story about what is going on with the other person when there is a lack of communication.
  • Helping them to see that the other person isn't responsible for their suffering by looking at where their experience really comes from so that they can feel more empowered and less victimized in the relationship.

Podcast music: Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area.

Ep. 3 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Show Notes:
What Is the Difference Between a Crevice and a Crevasse?
The difference between a crevice and a crevasse is more than just a few letters. It’s the difference between geology and glaciology. While both terms come from the Anglo-French word crevace, to break, they mean two different things. Crevices are cracks or splits caused by a fracture of a rock, while a crevasse is a deep fracture in a glacier or ice sheet.

Stalker: Can refer to still-hunting, which involves moving as slowly, quietly, and inconspicuously as possible, so you will see the deer before it sees you. Or you know, more commonly can refer to a person who harasses someone with unwanted and obsessive attention.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.

Angus Ross:

Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross:

This is episode number three, finding common ground and rewilding love.

Mateo:

I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.

Alicia:

I didn't get married to like, have uncertainties. I always felt like we were really passionate and affectioned and love each other beyond belief. I mean, we said I love you literally our first date.

Mateo:

I love the girl. I know that there's episodes and moments and I'm not in love with.

Rohini Ross:

The innate harmony, love well being is actually already there.

Angus Ross:

Hunky dory, I can't believe I just said that.

Mateo:

I'm gonna engage and I'm gonna get that girl that I want all the time.

Alicia:

In any given moment, his vibe just changes and it's like, boom, like you hate me, all of a sudden.

Mateo:

I want to be all in. I want nothing more than to have this affectionate romantic relationship.

Angus Ross:

He's decided that he's got the moral high ground. And she's absolutely batshit crazy.

Alicia:

I'm tired of being the only responsable, like I'm the men. I don't understand where things went wrong.

Angus Ross:

I think I'm on the mood for another metaphor.

Rohini Ross:

Is it a boxing metaphor?

Mateo:

To look like the energy I see behind her eyes, like I know that she has these moments where she's the greatest person in the world.

Rohini Ross:

If you're gonna keep using boxing analogies, I might have to start understanding boxing,

Alicia:

didn't get married to get divorced.

Mateo:

I can tolerate all the different types of abuse that I've, you know, been through. I think that he is suffering from some sort of depression.

Rohini Ross:

She's ultimately sensing that there's more going on than meets the eye.

Mateo:

Is the juice worth the squeeze? You know, there's a lot of squeezing, not getting much juice out of it.

Angus Ross:

You are listening to Untamed with me, Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross:

and me Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross:

Untamed (Rewilding Love) is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross:

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded listening, as we coach a real couple back to their natural state of love.

Angus Ross:

Relax, and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross:

The journey with Alicia Matteo continues, does. And when we left off with them last time, it was pretty clear that they each have their own version of reality that feels absolutely true to them. And they feel very justified in their position. And one of their positions they feel justified in is that they see the other person as responsible for their suffering. There isn't a lot of understanding of each other and each other's experience because they're so polarized. And rather than being able to get settled and have some perspective on their relationship and on each other, they're more caught up and listening to their own inner narrative that's based on their own fears and concerns and responding accordingly. And because of that the rapport in the relationship is going downhill because their behavior, both of their behavior can be very hurtful at times.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, I have the impression of two prizefighters going back to their perspective corners and feeling like they've made all the shots that they want to and they probably got a few points up on the board. And, and really, they'll just see where this goes. But it's in a sense, it's kind of like, we're at this point, it feels like we're at the end of round one. We don't really know where this is gonna go. We'll see.

Rohini Ross:

It's true. we're stepping into the unknown. And I really acknowledge them for their courage and being willing to step into the unknown with us.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, they are. I mean, they're extremely courageous in the sense, just by virtue of the fact they've even agreed to do this.

Rohini Ross:

Absolutely.

Angus Ross:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

And so even though all of that is going on, part of our responsibility in our job, is to really look for where the seeds of love are, and the relationships so that we can really bring focus to that and support the rewilding of love and their relationship with each other.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that's, that's, that's the part that I really enjoy. It's kind of being like, I don't know, what are we sort of, we an ecologist, kind of pull out some seeds of love or, or our detective trying to find out where it is?

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, we have to have a good eye for it. Because sometimes it's hard to

Angus Ross:

see sometimes it's very hard to see certainly in all that. We know with all that negative sentiment that we've witnessed Last fall.

Rohini Ross:

But I have to say this one segment that we're going to play next Angus, I think you did an amazing job of really helping to point Mateo in the direction of seeing the love and really, you know, doing your best to try and have him focus on the love versus all of the things that are wrong in his eyes with the relationship. And I would definitely say, given how he entered the intensive, you had a harder job of that than I did. Because Alicia was committed to the marriage. She didn't want it to end. But I would say you had your work cut out for you with Matteo in terms of helping him see the seeds of love, wouldn't you say?

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I would say if we're gonna, or if I'm gonna continue with boxing analogy. You're not are you? He had his guard up. He had a very good plan, and

Rohini Ross:

he was gonna stick to it. If you're gonna keep using boxing analogies, I might have to start understanding boxing.

Angus Ross:

If you have thoughts, maybe this would be an education for you. Okay.

Rohini Ross:

All right. Well, let's hear that segment with you Matteo. Now.

Angus Ross:

Just Can I interrupt for a second? Because I'm well that's what I'm really curious about. Because given all that you said that said that's like looks like a pretty hard life. So I'm now curious about what it is the that you you know, that you feel connected and bonded, in a sense of an I know that you you, you have this intention, and you want this to work out? But what is it that you see that you love that you that that kind of brings you joy and delight,

Mateo:

she has this energy behind her eyes, and her smile, that's literally like, like a kid in there is it seems like there's no damage behind that. And you just get that in glimpses.

Angus Ross:

That's okay. So, the emotion that's coming up for me just waiting for I'm sitting, just suggest that there is there is a there was quite a deep love,

Mateo:

there definitely is, but the glimpses are not getting us through, you know, and the glimpses like that, that energy that I see. Behind her eyes is, is becoming like numb to me. Yeah, I mean, it just feels like, um, it just feels like it doesn't exist anymore. And, and the glimpses that I do see, I just catch myself thinking, like, it's total bullshit, like, in an hour, you're gonna be bitching about something, or God knows what but like, like, I'm so jaded. That I feel like I'm jaded in my life. And I see like, the, this innocence, and just not, it's not carrying me through anymore. Because I know what's going to transpire. And, you know, a couple minutes, an hour a day, like just, it just just No, it's like, it's like, looking at a beautiful scenery, and just, and wanting to live there and in like, set, you know, your build a home on a foundation, but you know, that, you know, somehow you know, that there's a missile going to propel itself from the hillside, it's going to be gone. Right? So you're just like, what's the point of even enjoying it?

Angus Ross:

Well,let me let me, let me go somewhere with this. Because, you know, when we started, and I said, you know, this is good news, because it's, it feels very workable, in a sense, the emotion that just came up, that's really that's real, that's palpable, that's, there's almost there's a spiritual quality to that there's something very deep and meaningful in that emotion. And that what I'm going to be pointing to, that's kind of your essential nature, that's our essential nature as human beings is that is that, that that, that that desire, and need to be connected at that level, we kind of all one word, operate at that level, that magic sweet spot where we feel love, particularly in a relationship. And in a sense, what I'm going to be pointing to what I was alluding to the fact that this is good news is that you may think that those are just sort of few and far between and maybe they are, but that's kind of like your innate essential nature. That that that part of you that feels that Love the rest of it, this is the good news. And this may not seem even feasible at this point in time, but the rest of it is just stuff that we make up. That's the kind of the bullshit that we make up all those narratives that we build up over the course of time. That's what we're gonna, you know, that's what we're gonna really point to this weekend. It's just, it's just turning that on its head. Well, I think I mean, I'm in the mood for another metaphor.

Rohini Ross:

Instead of boxing metaphor, okay.

Angus Ross:

We're gonna be accused of mixing my metaphors. I don't know. Well, you know, I don't want you probably don't know, I think the only reason I know is that my brother brother went and did this a long time ago, I hasten to add, I don't know if he'd be still a mindset to do something so brutal. But years ago, he went on vacation in Scotland, and went deer hunting. I really, and part of that experience is that you get assigned what I think is referred to as a stalker. Not in the modern kollywood sense of the word, but in the traditional sense of the word. And that stalker basically helps the person with the gun, go and find the deer.

Rohini Ross:

But they're there like a tracker?

Angus Ross:

I guess you could say that they have some tracking skills.

Rohini Ross:

Okay.

Angus Ross:

I don't know where stalking or that verb. I don't even know really what it means. I don't know,

Rohini Ross:

just so I understand the person that goes with your brother is there to help him find the deer?

Angus Ross:

Yes.

Rohini Ross:

Okay.

Angus Ross:

They have skills, and they know where the deer are. Okay. And they know the telltale signs were to look. And so in a sense, that's my role with Matteo I am that stalker, but I am a stalker for love. And my sole objective is to get that in His sight, or his sights, his gun sights as it were, and, and help him look in that direction. And it was very cool in that experience to just suddenly realize that our he saw it, because the emotion really conveyed that he something really registered at a very deep level. That was kind of exciting.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, it was really powerful to hear the depth of his feeling and how much he cares about Alicia, like, that's just really obvious. When he allows himself to drop in. That's what comes up. But then he pops up very quickly back into his story about how bad it is with her What's wrong, and he just goes there very quickly. But he did settle that a little bit. And it was really, right there, just how much he cares and how much she's hurting and how much he misses her, and how much he misses the relationship the way he knows it can be and to go along with your stocking metaphor, that you have to be really persistent with him. And and you know, we'll we'll share the next clip. But even though he was able to touch into the feeling and connect with the love in a way, he popped back out, and so you had to be persistent and kind of help pointing him in the direction of love.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, thank you. I thank you for noticing that. I think that those are the moments where I just feel like this canned applause is sounding off in my head. And yeah, I did feel that there was that moment where he was starting to drift away, he was losing, he was losing, you know, his tension was going elsewhere. He has been slept sucked over back to the dark side. But I had to, you know, try and pull him back.

Rohini Ross:

And we have to remember that oftentimes, it's feels very vulnerable for people to be in their emotional experience. Many people aren't used to, especially men. I'm going to stereotype here. But oftentimes men are not comfortable. In the more vulnerable feeling states, they're sort of suicidally conditioned not to go there. And so it can, you know, I'm not surprised that he's not able to stay there very long.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, actually, in a sense, I was really shocked at that sudden level of vulnerability. So the fact that we went there for any length of time for me was was quite a win. Yeah, in the grand scheme of things.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And so here we'll listen into the next part where you're sort of remembering to you're assisting him in to remember to come back and look in the direction of love to see what his wisdom is actually pointing him towards and that's really what you're going to be doing a lot this intensive.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. I'll be there on my shoes. Stick, waiting for the action to unfold.

Rohini Ross:

I hope you come up with a less violent metaphors.

Angus Ross:

What's keeping you in this relationship is that you on some level, there's some wisdom within you that seeing her innate mental health, it's seeing, you know, the love that's behind her eyes or whatever, however you're articulating, on some level, you're seeing her essential nature.

Mateo:

Yeah.

Angus Ross:

But if you're, if you're going to sit there and say, you know, she had kind of defining her along, you know, how she showed up in your relationship, that's not seeing that there's something that's holding you in place something that's keeping you in this relationship based on what you're saying?

Mateo:

Yeah.

Angus Ross:

And that's what you kind of got to open up to?

Mateo:

Yeah, I'm here because of, because of her and wanting to have those glimpses of like, Oh, my God, like, we are the greatest couple on this earth.

Angus Ross:

Do you feel that?

Mateo:

I know,

Angus Ross:

You've had a few experiences that.

Mateo:

I haven't felt that in a long time, I have felt more lately, like, God, we can be so great, and we don't have to fake it. Like we're faking it, right? That's what I'm feeling now. Before it was like, Oh, my God, you and I, like, we could conquer anything. Like, this is so great. Now it's like, oh, my God, like, could but even the glimpses that we have now or are so fake, like, we're so fake, hasn't been anything real. In a long time. And that's where I'm kind of having these thoughts of like, how much longer you gonna have to fake it for, you have to fake it forever. You know, if it gets better, like, how much better is it gonna get? And it's not changing. And it's not changing, because there's not a baby here. It's not changing, because any of that stuff. It's just not changing because of who she is, and possibly how she was brought up. Yeah, but it's witnessed as a child, I don't know,

Angus Ross:

When you say things like, it's who she is, is kind of like, that's almost like the same as the therapist saying that this client of mine is broken. It's kind of like you're not seeing her innate mental health. But what's at odds with that is the level of sentiment that came up when you when I asked you, you know, to sort of highlight some of the things that are positive about the relationship. There was a real, there was something that was very heartfelt that came very president was very, very obvious to me. So it's kind of that's what I'm so curious about is is that is that that's kind of what's key seems like, I would have to believe that that's what's keeping you in it.

Gonzo:

Well, I mean, I guess you do the same thing is like, Hey, if you're, if your mom was verbally abusive to you and your sister, like, why do you say it's like, well, that's my mom. Right? Well, here it is, is why you staying and it's like, two does look like the energy I see behind her eyes. Like, I know that she has these moments where she's the greatest person in the world. That's what keeps me in a same thing I can, I can tolerate all the different types of abuse that I've, you know, been through, been subjected to whatever, however you want to say it. I can withstand all those things. But the, you know, I'm a man now. And I get to choose what Yeah, how I interact with people, how people, I let people interact with me. So that's what is causing me to move away from, oh, you know, we're married, is it going to be a forever thing to maybe this isn't going to be for everything? Right? But what's keeping me in is is that like, Oh my god, like this, this girl is great. Like, look at her eyes, look at this, her genuine smile, when it does occur to phenomenal it brightens up a room, but at the same time, it's, you know, is the juice worth the squeeze, you know, there's a lot of squeezing, not getting much fucking juice out of this shit.

Angus Ross:

He certainly has a way with words, I'll give him that.

Rohini Ross:

He's got his own metaphors.

Angus Ross:

I mean, it's quite an interesting dance in the sense that I'm trying to keep him on point in terms of looking at the direction of the love. And really, for him to get there, he has to find that vulnerability within himself. And so, you know, it may be my fault, maybe that for him, it's very uncomfortable to get to that level of vulnerability. But you can see how he's just sort of getting back into his defenses, which obviously, you know, are intellectual in the way that he's seeing the relationship and that level of feeling that was there and was so palpable, as I said before or said in the in the The sound bite, he has now gone back into a show in a sense. And now I've got to really find a way to get him back out. And I guess I look back on that, that that specific exchange and realize that I could maybe I've done a better job of not letting him get back there so quickly or for him just seemingly, he feel like he really got back in his shell. And it ultimately was in a very humorous way.

Rohini Ross:

And humor is one of his strengths. It is also one of his defenses to and I don't, I don't think that you didn't handle that in the right way. I think that you're, you know, we're really simply they're holding space and the innate health, the innate wisdom, the innate love in the individual working with it's going to come forward in its own time, and we're not there to make it happen in any certain way.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. Yeah. No, my guess I felt like I was just hanging on for dear life. And he was falling back into the abyss. Yeah. I thought it was humor.

Rohini Ross:

Yes. It was quite funny.

Angus Ross:

It was.

Rohini Ross:

So now we're here a little bit from Alicia. And as I said before, my work was a little easier in the sense that at least he was fully committed to the relationship and really want it to be in the marriage. And so we'll just hear a little bit from her about that.

Alicia:

My vows, I wrote my vows, and I literally said, that I wish that you can see me through your through my eyes. So you can see how special Yeah, yeah. And that's what I truly feel and believe in like, I'll trigger me because I'm like, he's so amazing. Yeah. And I hate when he gets down on himself. And I hate when he he talks down on themselves, or talks poorly about his body or his self. And like all this, it's like, you're so smart. You're so brilliant. You're so so like, it does bother me, because I'm like, you don't see it.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, you see how amazing he is.

Alicia:

Yeah! And there's times when like, I'm feeling low about like, say my job or my confidence levels, and like, he does build me up. And then I'm like, okay, like, Yes, I have somebody on my team. And it's like, I get upset that he doesn't see that, like, I'm on his team, rooting for him, like in there with him in the trenches. And yeah, it's feeling very hard. And like, I don't want to not be in I want to I like I fell in love with this person. I didn't get married to get divorced.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, listening to that it kind of breaks your heart. You. And for me, also, I think, in a sense, you know, we talked in the last episode about separate realities, that it's as if each personality has these two separate realities. So we listen to a Teo know, and being very judgmental about the relationship on the one hand, and then on the other hand, is this sort of beautiful level of sentiment that's coming from coming from a vulnerability that we haven't, you know, that we haven't yet seen up until that point. And then, and then you have Alicia, who's, you know, now just, she's, in a sense, I just want to match the personalities that come forward in that level of vulnerability and let them have a conversation, if we could sort of magically, you know, bring them together, when they're in that space, you'd think that everything would be resolved in one fell swoop. But then they get back into their corner, they get back into their judgment. And, and that's where the difficulty lies. But, but the, but the love is obviously there.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. Sorry. I was having trouble following you for a second. In terms of the who was matching with who, but what I understand you're saying is that if Mateo could speak with Alicia , yeah, when they're both in the space of vulnerability, then that would be a really beautiful conversation.

Angus Ross:

Yes, definitely.

Rohini Ross:

And that, unfortunately, what's been happening is that they haven't been meeting each other from that place. And they've been having conversations from the what you're calling the other personality from, from the other state of mind where they're more defended, and angry and upset. And those conversations aren't going well.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And the defenses are up. His guard is up. Yes. A little jab here and there. Yeah, well choose my moment to do that.

Rohini Ross:

Absolutely. And then she has her guard up and the various explosions that happen between them, all of that is not coming from that place of open heartedness, that place of love that's really there for both of them. Yeah. And so Next, we're going to be looking more at the common ground that they do have, even though they're having trouble seeing it for themselves, it's really clear that there have a lot in common. And they're both suffering. And they're both feeling quite lonely in the relationship.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that's it, isn't it that the both suffering. And yeah, you can imagine that you're right about that, that feeling lonely? Very, very intuitive of you.

Rohini Ross:

Thank you. Alright, so let's listen to Alicia.

Alicia:

Doesn't like to talk at all, like, the communication is really bad, it's very surface level, then he doesn't want to get deeper. And I've tried to respect that. But at the same time, as a human, I'm like, that's abnormal. So he doesn't really share too much. I think that he is suffering from some sort of depression that he's not truly aware of. Mm hmm. Um, I think a lot of it stems from like his childhood, where, because he's used abandonment with me before. He said, like, I've abandoned them, and his dad abandoned them. So I think it's a lot of that stuff, a lot of pressure that he puts on himself when it comes to finances when it comes to life when it comes to where you have to be.

Rohini Ross:

So with Alicia, she's really feeling the lack of communication with Mateo and missing, being able to connect on a deeper level with him. And in her dismay, about how things are unfolding, you can hear that she's trying to figure out what's behind all of that, and starting to put her own story together, based on what she knows.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, it's kind of interesting, from the point of view that she's already, you know, he's accusing her probably of being quite of a sped up individual. And you can see how she's transferring her focus from them being able to have some kind of level of verbal interaction to now it's a very much a sort of internal process for her where she's just getting really caught up in her her psychoanalysis of the situation, which I'm sure ultimately is going to be proven to be erroneous. But what she did, you know, that's kind of all she's left with, she's, she's unable to communicate with him. So all she's left with is the invention that's coming from her imagination.

Rohini Ross:

Right, she's putting dots together that may not go together. But what I think is important to notice that there's, when she's talking about this, she's she's feeling her pain and suffering because of the lack of communication. But I feel like she's trying to understand him. And like you're saying, based on the lack of communication from him and her trying to understand him, she's making things up as she goes along. But she's ultimately sensing that there's more going on than meets the eye.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of beautiful in a sense that she's she is seeing the psychological innocence, even though she not she, she probably isn't aware of those terms yet. That's what she's a sense essentially doing in a very organic way. She's, she's looking towards his suffering. And that's pretty, it's pretty remarkable. All things considered.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, I that's what I wanted to point out that even in her suffering, she was able to see that he's suffering and that his behavior in some way she's saying his behavior is a reflection of the fact that he's suffering.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that's pretty astute observation.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, yeah. And then in this segment with Mateo, he really is just very upfront about how he is withdrawn and his communication and that's sort of his coping strategy right now.

Angus Ross:

See what's afoot with Matteo.

Gonzo:

I, I can't tell you I mean, you know, my off putting emotions with you know, certain things has led to me being more distant relationship not being romantically involved in sometimes even just being mindfully absent or absent altogether because like you said, I create this narrative and now when I just entered my home, I don't feel that I can relax I feel like I'm you know, in a straight jacket all the time and you're right when I look at her now, it's kind of just like, I don't have that I have built up this narrative and even if, you know nothing has occurred that day that would make me feel the way that I do with like the no resentment, but just the played out storyline. Yeah. I've done that and who has every right to feel also lonely in the relationship because I know I haven't done what I would want to do. That's, that's what irks me the most is, I want to surprise someone, I want to cuddle up with someone, I want to give them warmth, and, and you know, the feeling, but it's just, I'm so pulled back from that at this moment that it even makes me feel sad that I can't have that emotion with anybody.

Angus Ross:

Well, you, you look at this, and you hear Mateo. And for me I can see where Alicia is coming from in the sense that she's now got preoccupied with sort of trying to psychoanalyze the situation. And really, that's all she's left with, in the sense that here is Mateo who's putting up his barricades and decided I'm going to extricate that I got to extricate from my myself from the situation, I can't do it physically. But I can do it emotionally. And I can cut off all forms of communication on that level. And, and there's this sort of misguided notion that that's going to keep him somewhat protected, when in actual fact, that's actually taking up a lot of energy, there's a lot of bandwidth taken up with that very purpose that he's decided to take on board for himself. So here's a here's an individual has decided to take that stance. And then here is Alicia, who's who's kind of left with her imagination, and just trying to figure out what on earth is going on here in this man's mind. And, and that must take its toll, too, obviously, it takes its toll. And that's also taking up a lot of bandwidth. So here, we have two individuals who are expending a great deal of energy, you know, in a very unnecessary way. And so for me, also, when I consider this is that we have worked with other couples who can really spend a good deal of their married life showing up in this way. And we will refer to that as an unhealthy normal. So let's hope we've we're going to be able to nip this in the bud fairly early on. But you can see the beginnings of what is obviously going to look like a very unhealthy normal if they continue in this vein.

Rohini Ross:

And I think that's a really good point that you're making, that it takes up a lot of energy to stay polarized. Because when couples are in conflict, they often don't realize how much energy is required to stay in the anger to stay in the resentment to stay in the upset to fuel everything that's needed to maintain the polarization. And that it's actually easier to relax into your natural state and be kind and loving and warm and open hearted with each other. But it's oftentimes invisible to people, just like you said with Matteo. He's thinking that his lack of communication is keeping him safe, that that's his coping mechanism, the way that he's trying to protect himself emotionally, that takes a lot of energy, and he's suffering. He even says, I want to cuddle. I'm not showing up the way that I want to show up. And that's painful for him. His coping mechanism is creating suffering for him not just in terms of the ramifications in the relationship. And you know, Alicia's outbursts, that's her best way that she can figure out to let off her steam. But ultimately, that's draining as well, that's not just draining on him that's draining on her too. So, you know, it's clear that they are polarized, that they're not seeing that it's actually much easier to not be polarized.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, well, well, fair that, you know, I don't really have anything to add to that. That's just, you know, that's the situation that is they've definitely polarized in no uncertain terms. And, and at some point, someone has to take the high ground, in a sense, I feel like Alicia, you know, really has enabled herself to maneuver itself in that direction, just by virtue of the fact that she, she shared some of her concerns about where he may may, she may be able to see her his suffering.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. So in terms of where we're at with them, now, we've done some intake, and we're learning more about what they're polarized on. And even at this point, we've, you know, you especially Angus, did your best to point in the direction of where the love is pointing in the direction of what is working and, and the tendency for each of them is to focus on what's not working to focus on the negative. And of course, that's what they expect to do. That's what they've done in the other therapy that they've gone to. And so the it feels normal to go to the long list what you would call them The laundry list, the long list of things that they feel are wrong with a relationship and aren't working. And to use your metaphor, we're actually asking them to get familiar with what love looks like, and to track the love or stuck the love, but to, to really see where the love is still in the relationship. And rather than focusing on what's not working, to help them to remember and see where the love is, and to remember that they do love each other, because even in the little snippets that we've shared, it's really clear that there are segments where it's obvious how much they care about each other.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I guess, you know, for us moving forward, we got to get Mateo to somehow realize that this, this stance of feeling like he needs to batten down the hatches and hunker down in his his glorious position, or not so glorious, because it position as the case may be, is a fool's errand that it's just gonna create more suffering, he's really kind of created this container for himself, which is just ultimately going to suffocate in at some point.

Rohini Ross:

Well, the good news is that they both do want love and intimacy, they both said that, they have both at times Express compassion, at least she has expressed compassion for Matteo feels like he's suffering, he's expressed compassion for her recognizing that his behavior is hurtful. So they, they have that care for each other, it's just difficult for them to maintain in a day to day way. And really, it's going to be for both of them, to take the higher ground, to both for both of them to see what other possibilities are available to them in the relationship. And in the next sessions, what we're going to be looking at, is helping them to see that the other person isn't responsible for their suffering, we're going to be looking at where their experience really comes from, so that they can feel more empowered and less victimized in the relationship, we're going to be looking at how their experience of reality is subjective. And it changes based on their mood, and helping them to see when they can trust their thinking and when they can't trust their thinking. And so rather than working on fixing any of these relationship dynamics, what we're going to do is we're going to help them understand how their minds work. So with that understanding, they can connect more fully with their own innate health, their own innate well being their own innate resilience, and to feel the truth of who they are more fully. And from there, see how they proceed the relationship at that point?

Angus Ross:

Well, at this point, I guess I should reevaluate this idea of using the metaphor of us being stalkers. Because I think if we're going to talk about getting them to the higher ground, probably the role that would be better suited to explaining what we have to do here is that we're more like shirtless. This point, we've probably got our land rover to the bottom of the mountain. And they've got all their equipment out for us to see. And now we've got to figure out where to establish base camp and then plot our route to the summit. And we'll see, we'll see how that goes. But at this point, I have to say I'm a little bit suspicious that Matteo is going to struggle with a side div, but at least here is not the root cause of all his suffering. I think that that's going to be somewhat challenging, but we will see maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right. I don't know. But I can see how that's definitely going to be a very big part of this journey, and maybe the greatest crevice for us to negotiate our way across, we'll see what happens.

Rohini Ross:

Is it crevice or crevasse?

Angus Ross:

Well, I think because you've spent time in France might be inclined to call it crevasse, which sounds very high brandy, but I'm pretty sure where I come from lightining secret? Nearly so.

Rohini Ross:

I thought you know, climbing reference.

Angus Ross:

I was using a climbing reference.

Rohini Ross:

I guess we'll have to look that up to

Angus Ross:

put it in the footnotes.

Rohini Ross:

Show Notes,

Angus Ross:

excuse me in the show notes.

Rohini Ross:

Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes and we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross:

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross:

If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org

Angus Ross:

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.