Awaken to Love

EP4: The Pain of Taking Things Personally

• Angus & Rohini Ross • Season 1 • Episode 4

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0:00 | 54:47

Alicia has an insight about not taking things personally. Luckily, she already has examples in her life where she feels immune to what Mateo says to her, and seeing that she doesn’t always take what he says personally allows her to see her own role in her reactivity. Rohini helps guide Alicia toward the truth of where her experience is always coming from, that we can only ever feel our own thinking, not circumstances. Together they explore how not being impacted by someone else’s behavior is empowering, not passive.

Alicia begins to view her reactivity as a common denominator in other relationships as well, which helps her embrace the idea of waiting for a calm mind before responding to Mateo. The Rewilders teach the couple about how emotions move through us, so even though they are coming from within, they are not another thing to try and control. Instead, we can treat our feelings like the weather and ride them out.

This episode explores:

  • The personal vs. the impersonal
  • The power of not taking things personally
  • How feelings act as a guide to our state of mind at any moment
  • Behavior is a reflection of the other person’s state of mind, which has nothing to do with us
  • Gaining compassion for our partner when they’re in a low mood
  • The way to decrease volatility in relationships
  • Connecting with our own inner peace regardless of our partner
  • We experience what we are identifying with in our own mind, not circumstances
  • Understanding our experiences come from within is liberating
  • Emotions move through us like the weather, we can wait until we feel more settled to act

Podcast music: Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area.

Ep. 4 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity

Show notes
Cad and a bounder: Old fashioned, British phrase for saying a man is acting in an unkind, deceitful, or selfish way.

North American irony: Angus questions whether this exists.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.

Angus Ross:

Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross:

This is episode number four. Not taking things personally.

Mateo:

I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.

Alicia:

in any given moment. His vibe just changes. It's like boom, like you hate me all of a sudden.

Angus Ross:

Feisty she is!

Alicia:

I don't understand where things went wrong. But I didn't get married to get divorced.

Rohini Ross:

She's ultimately sensing that there's more going on than meets the eye.

Mateo:

Is the juice worth the squeeze? You know, there's a lot of squeezing, not getting much juice out of it.

Alicia:

I put in the work in the last two years of working out four to six times a week to look good next to you like you're welcome.

Angus Ross:

He only goes to the gym once a week. 52 times more than me and a year.

Rohini Ross:

Each one of you is doing the absolute best you can in each moment.

Alicia:

I would have never thought to think of it that right.

Angus Ross:

Feelings!b Oh, you must use your feelings!

Rohini Ross:

We just can't control our thoughts. So because we can't control our thoughts. We can't control our feelings.

Angus Ross:

Boom! Nice going sister.

Rohini Ross:

Thank you!

Angus Ross:

You are listening to rewild in love with me. Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross:

and me Rohini Ross

Angus Ross:

Rewilding Love. It's a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross:

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded, listen in as we guide a real couple back to their natural state of love,

Angus Ross:

Relax, and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross:

This week, we're going to be sharing some excerpts from one of my sessions with Alicia to show the benefits of not taking things personally. But Angus, I think before we get into the session clips, it would be really helpful for us to talk about what we mean by not taking things personally. Because we have an expanded meaning on that when you say

Angus Ross:

Yes, expanded meaning and I would say that this is probably the most difficult nut of all for our clients to swallow, in terms of the leverage that we're looking for to get them to a place of healing.

Rohini Ross:

Well, the typical definition of somebody taking something personally, is when they interpret someone's remarks or actions, as directed against them when those remarks or actions weren't intended to be directed toward them. And they get upset and offended by that. But we actually take it one step further than that. And our definition, would say that we never need to take someone's words or behaviors personally, even if they are directed towards us. Because whatever their behavior is, is always a reflection of their state of mind. And it's really nothing to do with us, even if they are directing it toward us. Does that make sense?

Angus Ross:

Does it make sense to me?

Rohini Ross:

Yes.

Angus Ross:

Or it is to the audience?

Rohini Ross:

I can't talk to the audience. Makes sense to you?

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, it's a, it's a radical change in optics, it's seeing that in actual fact, it's the other person who's suffering because they're suffering from their state of mind, they got themselves into a low mood, and they're kind of really acting out from that place. So if we can really harness that understanding, then in actual fact, that is our suffering, because we're not taking it personally. And even actually presents us with the opportunity, we might even entertain some compassion for that person. So I'm actually I remember the other day that my eldest daughter got really mad at me got really angry because I didn't pick up the dog poo in the garden. And I said that I was. And, and I could have taken that really, personally at the time, because she was pretty mad. But I could see that she, for whatever reason, got herself into a bit of a low mood. And in a sense, I was able to see the innocence there. And I felt a sense of compassion and I and didn't go into that sort of usual or typical pathway of blame. I just let it go. So that would be an example of yet me not taking it. Not meaning to pat myself on the back too. too hard, but me not taking it personally.

Rohini Ross:

Bravo!

Angus Ross:

Bravo to me.

Rohini Ross:

So this next clip that we're gonna play is actually an example of Alicia not taking something personally. And it's really demonstrating how she has this capacity. And so we're sharing it just as an example of where she has perspective where she can see that what Mateo saying isn't about her. So we'll hear from her now.

Alicia:

He definitely is judged my body a lot before. And I don't take offense to it, because I think I'm a mentally strong person.

Rohini Ross:

Who choose not being in shape.

Alicia:

Yeah, or like looking at us both in the mirror and been like, wow, we should really get in the gym and this and that. And then now that I have been in great shape, I'm in great shape now better than I've ever been in my entire life, to be honest with you very happy with my body and everything. And yes, there are definitely places that I can improve on, of course, I mean, you can always do that. But this past week, I had just gotten back from spin class, and I was getting ready to get in the shower. And he had just gone to his trainer, he's only going once a week of any workouts. And that's I know, smooth, it's been bugging him because he keeps saying he wants to be like in shape and a better diet, blah, blah, but then turns to me and goes, you should consider going on a personal trainer, you know, you can be a little bit more fit or meeting say a little bit more fit, but something along those lines. And I just like, in my head, I'm just like, are you serious right now?

Rohini Ross:

Mm hmm.

Alicia:

And the way that I approach it, I was like, yeah, you know what I actually thought about that, maybe? Would you be interested in doing it with me? And then that way we can cut down the cost cuts like that can be fun, at least like once a day. I don't take offense to that stuff. Because I'm like, I'm just happy with what I look like, I really don't care. Yeah. And I've also put in the work in the last two years of working out, four to five, four to six times a week. To look good next to you like you're welcome.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah.

Angus Ross:

Wow, I, I do not know what I would do. If you certainly took it upon yourself to criticize some aspect of my body and challenged my body image in some way. I don't know what I would do, I'd be very upset.

Rohini Ross:

So you would take it personally,

Angus Ross:

I think I take it very personally. So, so good for her kudos for her for actually not, not rising to the bait as it were.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, that is quite unique. I don't know that I would be able to handle it either.

Angus Ross:

No. And then, you know, she obviously has this great sense of self in this one area of her life. And then I guess there are some frailties and other areas of you know, I guess we get to look at and hear about.

Rohini Ross:

I think that's true for all of us that we all have these areas of our life where we see things very clearly we have perspective, we recognize it's not personal, we recognize that we're okay, and we're fine. And then we have these other areas of our life where we get caught up, we take things more seriously, we take it more personally, and we get really insecure.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And he only goes to the gym once a week, 52 times more than me in a year, I might say,

Rohini Ross:

Me too. I wonder what his body looks like.

Angus Ross:

I don't know that you should be checking out his body.

Rohini Ross:

I didn't, that's what I'm wondering.

Angus Ross:

Shouldn't even be wondering.

Rohini Ross:

I'm just curious, given his focus on her.

Angus Ross:

Okay.

Rohini Ross:

In the next segment, sorry, we done?

Angus Ross:

I'm done.

Rohini Ross:

In the next segment, I lay a little bit of the foundation in terms of how the work is going to be going for these ongoing sessions. And then we get to hear a little bit from Alicia about sort of where she does get caught up. The way that we're working together, I'm gonna, you know, share things with you that are educational, and point you insert in the direction of what you already know, inside of you. So it's like you have your own wisdom, and you're the expert in yourself and your relationship. But what happens is when you get kind of, you know, a lot of insecure thinking going on, and you get stirred up and that gets really noisy. And it's harder to hear what you really know in your heart, what you really know to be true.

Alicia:

So when that like happens, the insecurity that I was expressing this come about is from him telling me like, Oh, I don't know if, you know, I want this to be my life forever. I'm uncertain about a relationship. That's where those insecurities are coming cuz I'm like, we were good five seconds ago, like what the hell.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. So you can hear what she just said that it looks to Alicia like, Mateo is responsible for her feelings of insecurity that that's where they're coming from. She doesn't recognize that they're coming from inside of herself at this point.

Angus Ross:

I know what a cad and a bounder.

Rohini Ross:

That's the opposite point that I tried to make.

Angus Ross:

I know, I'm trying to amplify your opposite point.

Rohini Ross:

No, no, that's the opposite of what I'm trying to say

Angus Ross:

That he's not a cat isn't the bounder?

Rohini Ross:

I'm saying that he may be a cat or a bounder, but it's not him being a cat or a bounder that is causing her to feel insecure. I

Angus Ross:

I know, I'm being ironic.

Rohini Ross:

I don't understand your irony

Angus Ross:

North Americans, you don't understand irony.

Rohini Ross:

Can you explain?

Angus Ross:

I am trying to point out that obviously he's not a cabinet bounder that's that's something that she's made up in her imagination. She's making him responsible for her suffering. So therefore in that, through that lens, he is a cat and a bounder. So therefore I am saying, what a cat in the bounder from that problem from that perspective, irony, it, we need to get it.

Rohini Ross:

So, from my perspective, he could be a cat in a bounder, but she might be, but it still doesn't cause her suffering, right.

Angus Ross:

So he may very well be a cat in the boundary. And she does still doesn't need to take that personally. That's right. And she he could could she could be totally inventing with that.

Rohini Ross:

It could be one of those, one of those either. But would you say that when you said he was a cabinet founder that was you being sarcastic?

Angus Ross:

Yes. It would be a better way to frame it.

Rohini Ross:

I didn't get that point.

Angus Ross:

Okay.

Rohini Ross:

Well, we can move along now.

Angus Ross:

Okay. Carry on.

Rohini Ross:

What we're going to be looking at going forward is how to actually empower her, I'm not going to be condoning his behavior or saying that what he's doing is okay, are kind. But I ultimately want to free her from feeling that he has the capacity to cause her to feel insecure.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I'm not talking about giving her boxing gloves and giving her the tools and means to fight back in an adversarial way.

Rohini Ross:

No, is that what you think of when I say empowering her?

Angus Ross:

Oh, no, some people might think that.

Rohini Ross:

I'm like, I'm talking about her being empowered from within, where she's able to feel okay, independent of what his behavior is.

Angus Ross:

Yes, I got that.

Alicia:

Like, he's even said like, well, like, right before we decided to come here, whatever, kid send me like a text like, Oh, I'm gonna move out at the end of the month, blah, blah. And in the hopes in the hopes that nothing comes of it because therapy was successful. And like, You're threatening me? Yeah. And that's, that's playing with my head. And that's this emotional rollercoaster you will be on.

Rohini Ross:

So we're gonna address that. And no, one's perfect. No. So what I want to say the more that you can see that when he's doing that, that's a reflection of his fear in the moment and his state of mind, the less you're going to take it personally. And here's a great example. There would be other women that their husband would say to them something about their body, and they would get totally insecure. That doesn't happen to you. The reason that doesn't happen to you is because you don't take it personally. You see, like, That's his problem, I find the big deal. But with this other thing, and you could say, well, of course I get upset, but it's No it's not, of course, if you're able to start to see like when he's saying those kinds of things, when he's threatening you. And he's, you know, doing any of that. That's a reflection of his state of mind. And it actually doesn't mean anything about the relationship, it actually doesn't mean anything about his love for you. And it absolutely doesn't mean anything about you, the more you can see that, the more neutral you're going to be when he kind of gets into that disturbed state internally. So it's twofold. Obviously, Angus and I are going to address that because it's not ideal.

Alicia:

Right.

Rohini Ross:

But because I don't know what his learning curve is gonna look like he might regress, you know, that can happen, right? And he might get back into that state. But if you see it for what it is, it doesn't have to impact you in the same way. You know, he's just really freaked out right now. And he's internally disturbed. And when he gets scared, he says things like that. All it means is that he's scared in that moment.

Alicia:

I can, I can absolutely see that. I think from the way that I was definitely approaching it is like, the whole body image thing. It's like, okay, whatever, just like my body, that's me. But like, when it comes to our relationship, like that's something that's very serious to me. And that's where then I'm getting put into, like, Rocky, you know, territory.

Rohini Ross:

And so does that help you to kind of see like, it's actually no different than the body thing.

Alicia:

100% I mean, I've never, I would have never thought to think of it that right.

Rohini Ross:

That's good. So that's the other thing that we're looking for in this time together is what Haven't you thought of before. That's a new one. That's really good and that that will be really helpful because You're going to be able to like, as you said, relationships, you know, you're with another person and another person is going to have their moods that go up and down, right? You're going to have their insecurities, their frailties, there's weaknesses. So our intention is for both of you to be on more common ground by the time you leave here. But you're both still going to be the same people. Yeah, you're going to have the same frailties. But hopefully, they won't come up as much, but they're probably going to come up. So what you can see from what you know, you know, about your husband is that when he gets insecure, he kind of lashes out at you. And you one point the finger at you. Now, as much as I'd like to say, Oh, we can fix that.

Alicia:

Right

Rohini Ross:

The actual benefit to the relationship is for you to become immune to that. So I'm not saying it's okay. And I'm not saying I don't want that to decrease, but what's actually really going to help the relationship is when you see that for what it is, and it's not taken personally, and so you don't get destabilized?

Alicia:

Yeah, I'd love to get there for sure.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. Well, you being able to see it and say, I hadn't thought of it that way. Like that's you getting there. Like, that's you seeing like, the next time that I mean, again, I don't want it Yeah, but like I said, you know, people are human, that the next time something like that happens.

Alicia:

yeah

Rohini Ross:

You're gonna remember we had this conversation and you were like, Oh, he's destabilized.

Alicia:

It's funny. You mentioned that because like last night, like when we were when I got really upset over all this stuff, or whatever we spoke about, like him moving out thing. It like dawned on me, I'm like, crying wolf. Like you're crying wolf right now. And it's to throw me out of my orbit.

Rohini Ross:

Mm hmm. Well, I don't even know that it's that intentional. I don't know, I can't I can't read his mind. But I wouldn't. I don't even think it's that intentional. Most people just this is just knowing people not knowing him. But knowing people. Like when they get when people get scared. And they don't understand that they're scared. And they're, they just try to fix their experience. So if somebody have an experience that feels intense, and they're scared by the intensity of that experience, they try to fix it. And so one of the ways that people try to fix their experience, not a good way, but one of the ways that people do it is they start to lash out at somebody else, or they start to place blame elsewhere, as a way to try and fix what's going on internally. Doesn't work. Yeah, makes a negative downward spiral. But it's the best attempt that they can do in that moment. And this is something that Angus is going to be talking about, too. So for both of you to really get on board with that, each one of you, you and you can see this for yourself. Each one of you is doing the absolute best you can in each moment.

Angus Ross:

Boom. Nice going, sister.

Rohini Ross:

Thank you. I mean, she had an insight.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that's so cool. That's gonna be a hard act to follow. Now for me too.

Rohini Ross:

Well, he had more of a slow burn on his insight unfolding,

Angus Ross:

I guess. But that was fantastic. She, she she really saw something and you could see how her spirits lifted as she got that sense of what she was saying.

Rohini Ross:

Or what you're pointing out is when she said that comment. I've never thought about it that way before. Right? Yeah, I think that's helpful for our listeners to recognize that when people step into new territory and the unknown, it usually feels that way that it's new and fresh. And they haven't seen it that way before.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, there's a and it's all about the cadence in the voice. That could be a Yeah, I never really thought about it like that way. And it's kind of dismissive, but this was like, Yeah, I never really thought about it like that way before.

Rohini Ross:

And that's cool.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, really landed for I love that.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And I love that she was able to feel some of that possibility, that sense of possibility that this area that she was taking, so seriously, didn't have to be taken so seriously that she could see that she already has the resilience inside of her related to other comments that he makes. But these comments about leaving, they were like kryptonite to her.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And you could really get a sense of the optimism that was coming into play for her at this point at that point beyond that point, too.

Rohini Ross:

And I want to be really clear, and I did say a once in this segment, but I want to be very clear that I am not condoning bad behavior. If he is being unkind to her or cruel to her. I'm not saying that's okay. Just put up with it. What I am saying is that it doesn't mean anything about her so that she can have more internal stability, more authentic empowerment and from that place where she's not feeling victimized and not suffering, she will make whatever choices are best for her in that relationship.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. And I guess it's also a case of them not feeling like they're a doormat, she could think, you know, I guess quite often you hear clients say, Yeah, but that makes me feel like such a doormat. And really, actually, it's not a doormat you get to the higher ground, it's actually empowering to see that this other person is suffering. And you are not as the case may be, it's all about their state of mind has nothing to do with you. So it's actually like a superpower. In a sense,

Rohini Ross:

it is, it's really empowering. And I just want to make that clear, I love that you use that phrase doormat, because that's the opposite of what I'm saying. And from that place of inner stability, perspective, calm, you know, it's up to her whether she chooses to be in the relationship or not. And each client obviously will make their own choice based on that that's not my job to tell them what to do. But it's getting to that place of inner empowerment, where those choices are best made, rather than running away out of reactivity, or staying out of fear of not being able to leave, it's finding that place of inner equilibrium and peace of mind. And then from there from that place of love, ultimately, making the choice about the relationship.

Angus Ross:

All aces, baby.

Rohini Ross:

Right, well, let's hear a little bit more. So what's been happening is that, you know, he's been, you know, upset, destabilized, you've been upset, destabilize, you've interacted, and then he's definitely taking that personally. You're sometimes taking it personally. And and you're both getting more and more destabilized. So as you both get more and more destabilized, the quality of feeling in the relationship goes down. Right? So it's just it's it's a direct relationship, the more destabilized you get the feeling and the relationship goes down. And what's happening is the, the direct causation of that isn't clear. And so it's, if because if it was clear, you'd like, Oh, we just need to settle down. And we'd be fine.

Alicia:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

But it's looking like Well, no, I need to leave or he needs to be different, or, you know, all these other things need to get fixed. Yep. In order for the feeling to come back into the relationship. And what I'm saying is like, Well, actually, it's a whole lot more simple than that. And that it's really about each one of you getting more stable internally. And naturally. You don't even have to work at it. Naturally, the feelings come back in. So what's your reaction to what I'm saying?

Alicia:

That I want to do that?

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, yeah. And what are your thoughts about like, I know that you'd want to it's appealing. It's, yeah, resonates. But what are your thoughts about the practicalities of that?

Alicia:

I mean, I think it's very practical. I think it's like approaches that, like I said, Never like thought of, yeah, um, I think like going back to the whole thing of, you know, the body image versus like, and looking at it in the same perspective as the leaving thing, or when he's threatened me, I think that that does somewhat give me stability, like it does call me in a sense that things are like, Alright, you're just going through something and I get that I'm a stronger person, I can handle a lot more. And it's not a perspective, I ever thought that I should view it as. Because I always thought like, obviously, that's very serious.

Rohini Ross:

Like, you're very serious, like, I'm gonna pay it. I'm not gonna take that seriously.

Alicia:

Yeah

Rohini Ross:

But I'm gonna take that seriously.

Alicia:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

What I'm saying is when he's destabilized, you can't take anything he says, seriously.

Alicia:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

And the same goes for him too, when you're destabilized. And he's taking what you're saying very seriously, when you're upset.

Alicia:

100% I've always said to him, I was like, why didn't mean it that way. I was just like, it was in the heat of the moment.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah.

Alicia:

Then it just like, remains with him. And it's like, what, but what, like you've said things you don't mean? Yeah, yeah. And I think it it may have to start, you know, even like, just with me understanding that maybe it'll transpire as well, like, because it's not affecting me. Then maybe then he'll see that like, that's not gonna work.

Rohini Ross:

It will fizzle out. Yeah. What happens is, when, when, like, he says that and you take it's like, he says that he's destabilized. He says that

Alicia:

I take it like the atomic bomb.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, you take it seriously. And then you're now all stirred up and you say whatever you say. And then it's like that escalation. Yeah. That happens.

Alicia:

But or internalize it, and then it's eating me up.

Rohini Ross:

But yeah, but even if it doesn't be expressed, it's still going up. And it will eventually come out in some way.

Alicia:

Which is what happens.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, exactly. But look at it this way, then. So he's getting off. You're fine. You're feeling good. You're fine. He gets he's all stir up, you have no control over that may have absolutely nothing to do with you. He drops the bomb. And you're like, oh, he's really suffering. This is what he does when he's suffering. You don't go up here, you stay down here, he's more likely to just come back down, rather than each one of you. Right? escalating. Yeah. So that's where it's, it's not that you're responsible for what he does, you're not responsible for him coming back down and settling. But it's just how it works. Because we're all designed to settle. Yeah, like nobody enjoys being in a head up escalated state of mind, nobody likes that. And we never stay there forever. We get there, we stay there for as long as we stay there, and then we come back down. So what's been happening is like, there's been someone's lighting the match, and then gasoline has been thrown on the match, and then more sleeves are thrown a match. So it's like, now someone can like the match, whether it's you or whether it's him. And the other person can have a much better chance of not throwing gasoline on that match. And what's the match going to do is just going to go out?

Alicia:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

Right. And it's going to go out not with a huge bang, which is going to fizzle out. Now, that is what decreases volatility in relationships, and volatility, and the escalation that you're describing. It's painful, because we say things that we like to say we say things that we don't mean, we get desperate, and we start to think of desperate measures. And, and then our mind is filled with all of that, because now we got to figure out well, what if he is leaving me? Or how am I going to leave her? You know, maybe I don't want to be married, like, then your mind is filled up with all that content that you're now taking seriously?

Alicia:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

So in this section, I'm doing my best to help Alicia see how the conflict escalates in the relationship, and how that damages rapport, and what the possibilities are, for her to actually be able to get out of that dynamic that she's in with Mateo, and actually have that whole dynamic shift just by her choosing not to engage with it.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, in a sense, I guess the invitation is for her to go to the higher ground. And from the point of view of seeing how he's caught up, he's suffering. And if she engages with him at that level, she just comes down to that level. And I both get locked into the suffering together.

Rohini Ross:

And I think she's pretty clear that she can be very volatile, too. So it's not like he's the only one that's engaging from a destabilize place. It sounds like they both engage from that place. And so for her to be able to see the damage that that does, and that really all that's needed, is to be able to wait out the emotional storm. And from that place of inner calm, they can then have conversations that don't devolve into more conflict, and hopefully see what the possibilities are that are available to them.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, well, I mean, I do remain hopeful, because it seems like she's seen something. And now it's a case of her being able to try this on for size and see the fruits of that.

Rohini Ross:

Absolutely. In this next section, I'm really emphasizing for Alicia the importance of her being able to see something for herself, that will allow her to have a different experience in the relationship. Even if Matteo is not able to make the same level of change that she does. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm not hopeful for Matteo. And then I'm not expecting him to have learnings and transformation as well. But I really want her to see how her experience can be different, even if he doesn't significantly change, because her experience is coming from inside of herself. And it's coming from how she's relating to her own thoughts. And that she has the ability to stabilize, and to connect with her own sense of inner well being and peace independently of him. And to me, that's really important, because I want her to realize that she has that inner freedom, and that she has that capacity. So there's two parts to this one is and it seems like this is you know, really key point from this first session is for you to just start to see, because I don't know what kind of state of mind he's going to be in when he leaves that session. Right?

Alicia:

Right.

Rohini Ross:

He might be more stirred up. He might not be we don't know. So let's say he stood up, let's say he's like, I can't believe in this. Like, I'm not saying he said this to me. What is the what is the point of being here? I think I'm just gonna leave now. Like just hypothetically, right? From this conversation, you could be like, Oh, he's just really scared. Yes, feeling really insecure? It's not about you, it doesn't, you don't have to take anything he's saying seriously, in that moment. Yeah. And from that observation, you will relate to that. You relate to yourself differently, and you'll relate to him differently. And you will feel better. Right? Because when you don't take things personally, and when you kind of have perspective, but you might even feel compassion for him. Yeah, right. You might be like, God, he's really struggling, you don't know what you'll see. But I just want you to recognize his state of mind. Recognizing that when he's behaving in a certain way, that's a reflection of his state of mind it. And if he's got a stirred up state of mind, that's an indicator to not take what he's saying, seriously. Now, the same is true for you. So just as much as I want you to kind of be able to see his state of mind and know whether you will want to take what he's saying seriously or not. I don't mean disrespectful.

Alicia:

Right, right.

Rohini Ross:

I don't mean like, Oh, I'm not, I don't want to take any say. So it's just an internal recognition. Right? He's just a little crazy right now. And, you know, take everything he says, with a grain of salt. Yeah, the same is true for our own state of mind. If we start to recognize when our own state of mind gets sped up, we start to see when we need to take our thinking seriously, and when we don't. So for you, when you're, you know, what I'm hearing is there can be kind of this build that happens. So when you're starting to build, what will interrupt the build is actually not his behavior? It's actually going to be you realizing that you're getting stirred up, and that you don't need to take all these thoughts that you're having seriously.

Alicia:

That definitely happens. Like I catch myself telling myself like, Okay, stop. You're overthinking. You're overthinking. Yeah, let it go.

Rohini Ross:

So you recognize it?

Alicia:

I, I've recognized before I've never have, but now I'm recognizing it. I want to recognize it more.

Rohini Ross:

You'll get better.

Alicia:

But I do catch myself in moments like driving to work or taking out the trash and being like, You're overthinking just stop.

Rohini Ross:

Yes. That's great. That's great. So you're already seeing that. And it will just naturally you'll see it more. Because what happens is we get more sensitive to the negative feelings that come up with a stirred up state of mind. So before when you didn't even realize you would be in the feeling of a stirred up state of mind and not even know it. So now you are driving to work and your feelings are letting you

Angus Ross:

Feelings. Oh, you must use your feelings. I like know Oh, I'm overthinking. Stop it! So you are getting more sensitive to that and realizing oh I'm going down the rabbit hole and I shouldnt go down there. Your are on the right track and you are gonna keep seeing more related to that. So, the more you see about that the less you are going to get escalated and the less likely there is going to be blow outs betweeen the two of you because you wont get to the place you need to blow out. I am not saying never but it would be less often and when it does happen,lets say last night for example. When you are able to see it trough the understanding of you were really stir up, you were taking your thinking seriously, you were taking what he was saying personally and your behaviour made sense of how you were seeing it. But today you have a bigger perspective. You can see that oh, that was my stired up thinking that I was reacting from. Is not really the perspective that you could see in this moment. What im hoping Alicia is taking on board here is how she can use her feelings as a signal to help her understand what her quality of her thinking is in the moment, what her state of mind is. And is a very simple way for her to know how she is doing and wheter or not she needs to take a break, needs to let herself settle. And the more she is willing to use her feelings as that signal the easier is for her to recognice earlier and earlier when she needs to practice selfcare, when she needs to let her mind relax and so thats the main piece I hope she takes away, is that she has this built in feedback mecanism that she carries everywhere with her and that will help guide her in a way that will allowed her to not engage in the volatility in the same way she has been. that. That's that's the indicator that she's looking for to know when she's out of balance or going south in a state of mind. Check those feelings.

Rohini Ross:

Absalutely and they never lie, our feelings don't lie to us. And we can all trust them. I mean, this isn't just for her, this is her, every single one of us, myself included. And the more attune we become, the more sensitive we become, the more we recognize when we're getting stirred up. And I'm not talking about being hyper vigilant about paying attention to feelings all the time, what I'm recommending to her is for her to just be able to notice, not that she needs to be checking in every 10 seconds, but just to to get used to the feeling of when she's not in a place of neutral. When she's starting to leave that territory and heading to a more sped up place in her mind that she is able to detect that on a feeling level, so that she can then course correct earlier rather than later.

Angus Ross:

It's like on our new car we have the steering column has the steering wheel will vibrate when we go out of lane. It's like you start to see what those little indicators are that show you you know, she's she's getting out of lane. I think for me, actually, I've noticed for myself, that if I get anxious, I get really anxious and I get really sped up, I tend to get kind of a tight a tight chest. And that for me is that's my indicator. That's my steering column vibrating. And then I know just kind of take my foot off the gas in a way.

Rohini Ross:

That means letting your mind relax, I take my foot off the gas, letting your mind step off it.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, absolutely.

Alicia:

I guess my only question would be like, for instance, like yesterday, Valentine's Day and like, seeing like not, and no attention from it. Like, how would I approach that without being like, Well, that was mean, or like, now I'm insecure about those things?

Rohini Ross:

Well, what I would say is like, whenever you're feeling hurt, the more that you can see that that feeling of hurt, is a reflection of you taking something personally. And it's not actually reflection of what he's doing. Like, because when he, when he said his explanation of that, it was kind of like I don't want to lead her on, like, yeah, kindness in that, right. So it wasn't, I'm doing this as a few to hurt her. He's like, I don't want to lead her on. So I'm not going to give her my mixed messages. I hear the kindness of that. So there's a there was a misunderstanding that was going on inside of you making it mean this, this and this, when actually he was doing it out of his own logic of what made sense to him not to be me. So your hurt wasn't actually coming from what he was doing. It was coming from the meaning that you were giving it. Does that make sense?

Alicia:

It does.

Rohini Ross:

And so you're hurt. You don't have control? Like one of the things that you said in the other room? Which I don't necessarily I don't agree with. And I think it might be helpful to talk about it, because I think it might be holding on to a standard. This is not reasonable. But you said we can choose how we feel. And we may be able to influence that. Like I absolutely agree that if, you know, I realize I'm going down that rabbit hole of negative thinking, and I wake up and like, Oh, I don't want to go down there like right, there's some influence there. But what about those times when I don't even realize I'm in the rabbit hole? I don't really have a choice then. Yeah. Right? And so just like that example, from last night, like you were hurt, it didn't feel like you had a choice about being hurt. So you didn't really get to choose how you felt it just occurred to you. Right? So I think having that be understood is just a lot more humane.

Alicia:

Mm hmm.

Rohini Ross:

And then you're not holding yourself to a standard that you should always be feeling good or always able to control your feelings. And you're also not holding him to that standard, either. Because, you know, it's it's, to me, it's just an unreasonable expectation for yourself or for him for any human being really, you just can't control our thoughts. So because we can't control our thoughts. We can't control our feelings because they come from our thoughts. But what you can recognize is like, for example, using yesterday's Valentine's Day, incident, when you're feeling hurt, the more that you can see like, Oh, this is a reflection of my state of mind. It's coming from me. It's not actually coming from him. Then there's going to be more kindness to letting yourself settle and addressing it once you're a little bit more clear. Does that make sense? I can see your face kind of changed when I'm talking with you,

Alicia:

Just like if I had approached it differently, like, maybe he could have seemed like it did hurt my feelings.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. But I'm not saying this. So you're gonna be hard on yourself?

Alicia:

No, no.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. So I really want you to

Alicia:

Yeah, no, it's just like it's more. So just like, I wish I would have approached it that way.

Rohini Ross:

Well, now you're seeing the possibility of approaching in a different way. You didn't see that then. So you couldn't have done that then. But the good news is this is a learning, you're going to be able to see that going forward.

Alicia:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

Right. So you're like, oh, you're, you're caught up in your thinking you're feeling hurt, you'll be able to see like, oh, there's an opportunity for me to take care of myself here and realize, I'm getting caught up in my own story, and then approach it in a different way, and probably get a different result.

Alicia:

Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

And to me, that's going to be the theme of what's going on between the two of you, is that the way that you've been trying to approach things with him has not been working. But now you're seeing a possibility for how you might approach things differently, they'll probably get a different result.

Alicia:

Yeah. And I feel like I couldn't, you know, reflect across the board, like every relationship in my life.

Rohini Ross:

Oh, there. And you know what? That realization, when you see something generic like that, that's huge. Like, that's, you're seeing something really profound, because it's now you're recognizing, this is something that I do as a as a general thing. Yeah. And you're seeing the opportunity for something to be different. And so that, that sort of generalized, different way of being is going to change every area of your life.

Alicia:

Yeah, I can definitely see that.

Rohini Ross:

I love that she got to the point, where she was able to see that the way that she relates to Matteo is not specific to him, she was able to step far enough back and recognize that the way she's showing up there also relates to how she shows up in other relationships in her life. And I think that when a client is able to take that step back and see the big picture in in that way, I feel really hopeful because it's no longer about the right and wrong in the relationship. She's actually reflecting on how she shows up. And when she sees how there's similarities in all areas of her life, that means that she's really looking at this in a much more universal way and much more philosophical way. And so I feel quite excited that she's actually having a significant shift related to this.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that was the pivotal moment for me to actually, you know, she's been, they've both been somewhat narrow, very narrow in their focus on the relationship. But I just felt in that moment, she just really pulled back and got the wide shot, got the full perspective of what this understanding is pointing to. And, and, you know, I've had that experience with other clients, they see the universality of it, as you say, and that's like, Yeah, boy, yeah, we got we got where we need to get to. And it's really exciting, actually, as a coach to sort of witness that.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, it absolutely is. And there were two other points that I just want to point out. Points that I want to point out? to other themes that I think are important, and one of them is something that we're going to be revisiting over and over again, it's something that can be difficult for people to really see and and recognize how it shows up in their life. But that point is how we don't feel the outside circumstance. We feel what we're relating to, in our own mind. And so this is a 180 degree shift from where she's been looking at Mateo is the source of her suffering. He's been responsible for how she feels. And here I am saying, well, actually matej was a circumstance and you're not experiencing that. Everything you experience comes through the filter of your own thoughts. That's what you're identifying with and you're making that meaning up. It's not coming from him. And I really appreciate how open minded she was and how able she was to hear that in that moment. There wasn't any pushback. But I think this is a pivotal point for that empowerment piece. For anybody to be able to see that we experience. What we're identifying within our own mind. That means that we can no longer be a victim to what's happening outside of us. Tat doesn't mean, as I've said earlier, that we have to stay in the situation that we can't make changes. But to understand that our experience comes from inside of us, is actually really liberating.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's quite a quantum shift in consciousness, so much so that she's probably gonna, she's probably going to go in and out of this understanding from this point forward, and maybe in a sense, as we all do, but she's seen a lot, and it's gonna take a while probably for this to really anchor in. But I feel, you know, it's, I feel really optimistic, it's awesome that, you know, you've got to that place with her.

Rohini Ross:

And the other point that I think is really key, because there can be a misunderstanding that, what, what I'm talking about is just another way to manage your thoughts and feelings. And I wanted to make that really clear to her that this understanding that I'm sharing is not about giving her the capacity to choose what feelings she has to choose what thoughts she has, it's, it's so much work to try and manage our experience and try and manage her thoughts. It's ultimately counterproductive, because it's so exhausting. And we get stressed out. And I'm saying this from firsthand experience, it's not like I haven't tried this myself. So I really wanted her to understand that this wasn't about being able to choose to be in a good feeling all the time. That actually, the greater freedom and the greater blessing is to see that feelings come and go. And we don't need to control them, because we're safe no matter what feeling we're having. So it's not as if Matteo should be feeling better, and he should be working at feeling better, or that she should be more positive and less angry. It's that whatever feelings are present, when we're open and relaxed around them, they just come and they go, like the weather comes and goes, and there's no need to fix them, or change them. And when we're open around our feelings when we're not scared by them, there's so much less acting out from a reactive state, because we understand that we're caught up that we're in a stirred up state of mind that the intensity of the emotions are going to come and they're going to go, the intensity is going to come and it's going to go, and there's no need to act from that place to feel better. Because we're naturally designed to have emotions move through us. And all we need to do is allow that natural design to do what it does. And ultimately, we're going to come back to a place of stability and peace and balance within ourselves. And the more we let go and don't try to manage our experience, the quicker that seems to happen.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, so in a nutshell, it's not about a technique or a process, there's no magic bullet, it is an understanding, understanding that it is an understanding, and realizing that's as simple as that.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, it's true. And the other thing I noticed in her and I don't know if you noticed it, Angus, but she really started to settle, I'm gonna just include a little clip where she speaks to that. But, you know, we're doing the podcast looking at the recordings. And when you look at recordings, in the software, you see the volume, the decibel level of what a person is speaking by this, these white lines. And I can see based on her decibel level, from how the session progresses, that at this point in the session, she's much softer, quieter, more settled, and, And that, to me, is an indicator that she's getting more reflective, her nervous system is settling down. She's really listening. And she's not in the fight flight or freeze mode, she's, she's just getting more relaxed, calm, balanced and receptive.

Angus Ross:

It's like you've got a new whole new science at your disposal to track your clients state of well being.

Rohini Ross:

I just noticed it.

Alicia:

I definitely feel like a sense of calmness. And just like opening up my head to like, just viewing things differently, like I know that I can recognize I can feel a certain way. And maybe I don't have to, like express it immediately so that I can like, calm down from it and see it correctly.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, your your feeling state is going to come and it's going to go Yeah. And when you see that and you recognize like, Oh, it's not about immediately addressing this thing with him because I'm actually feeling my own state of mind in this moment. You'll be more likely to write out that wave and then address it once you're more settled.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I really see what you mean. She's really come back down to earth here. She started. Off way out in the stratosphere and she's really settled down. It's, it's really lovely to see.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And hopefully she'll recognize that feeling state for herself and get more familiar with it and comfortable with it. And it'll be easier to come back to again and again and again.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, hallelujah.

Rohini Ross:

Now, I can really relate to Alicia, I have a lot of empathy and compassion for her, and how personally, she's been taking Mateos threats to leave. And, you know, the reason why is because I remember how sensitive I used to be in our relationship and how, personally I would take your upset. And it's really wonderful to be able to have a new foundation inside of myself at this point, where I'm more resilient in the face of my emotions and in the face of your emotions. And I'm really hoping that Alicia can take that on board for herself. And ultimately, what allowed me to make that shift was that I was able to see how you weren't responsible for how I was feeling, I was able to see how much noise I had going on in my head, that was self deprecating, that was painful. And that even though maybe you would be angry, that would be what I would be listening to, it wasn't your anger that was causing me to feel upset. It was all of the thoughts telling me that I needed to be better, I wasn't good enough if I was a better woman wife, that you wouldn't be angry in that moment. And it ultimately was, was my own mind that was taking me down. And when I got to have some distance from that, through understanding that I was feeling my own thoughts, I was able to have perspective on them in a way that they didn't grip me in the same way. And I was able to drop into deeper feelings of quiet and peace inside of myself. And in that space, I realized, I felt safe, I felt Okay, I felt good enough. And that was not coming from outside of me. It was 100% coming from me, experiencing that from within myself that could not be given to me. And in that experience, it completely shifted my ability to stay stable in the face of other things going on in my life in the face of you know, things going on at work or things going on with you and our relationship. And it's such a different foundation that I now live within that I'm so grateful for. And I'm hoping that she's able to get a taste of that, and, and live more fully into that so that she can have that as a foundation for herself. And ultimately, the reason that we're doing this podcast is that we're hoping that everybody who listens gets a taste of that and finds that space within themselves more fully so that you know you as a listener can live more from there in your life. Thank you so much for listening to revolving love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross:

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross:

If you would like to learn more about our work and their online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewilders.org

Angus Ross:

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.