EP6: Walking on Eggshells

Alicia reveals to Rohini that she felt completely blindsided by Mateo's unhappiness in their relationship. She blames Mateo and struggles to examine her own role in the status of the relationship. Rohini helps Alicia to let go of judgments that create the experience of shame for her so she can peel back the layers of denial and see how her reactivity has been pushing Mateo away. 

With her guard down, Alicia begins to explore her inner experience and how her own emotions, not Mateo's, can give her warning signals regarding her state of mind, and her need to take care of herself when her mood drops. Rohini explains how having the understanding that our internal experience is created from within, doesn't mean behaviors can't change, but shifts in behavior result from internal shifts in understanding and are much more likely when there is goodwill in the relationship. 

Alicia experiences greater freedom when she realizes she is not responsible for what Mateo is feeling. If she can stop working so hard trying not upset him, she'll reduce the resentment that has built up from all that hard work not going anywhere. By realizing she's not responsible, she can eliminate the feeling of walking on eggshells, and contribute to creating a feeling of goodwill in the relationship. Not feeling guilty and responsible, leaves a person feeling more open-hearted.

This episode explores:

• A shift in understanding is necessary for behavioral change.
• It is okay to be on the learning curve of navigating difficult emotions.
• Self-care is the first priority when experiencing upset.
• We all live in separate realities - life looks different through our separate lenses
• Seeing psychological innocence in others helps reduce blame and resentment. We are all only ever doing our best given how we see things.
• Shifting the focus from blame to seeing the role of state of mind in relationships.

Show notes
Tenderization: A new coaching term Angus has created to describe one's guard coming down.
Hot potato: A party game that involves players gathering in a circle and tossing a small object such as a beanbag or even a real potato to each other while music plays. The player who is holding the object when the music stops is eliminated.
Carte blanche: Complete freedom to act as one wishes or thinks best.
Teflon: A brand of non-stick pans, i.e. being immune to someone else's reactivity.

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 6 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.

Transcript

Angus: 0:03

Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini : 0:10

This is episode number 6. Alicia, walking on eggshells.

Mateo: 0:17

I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.

Alicia: 0:19

I don't understand where things went wrong. In any given moment his vibe changes and it's like boom like you hate me all of a sudden,

Rohini : 0:27

Understand that our experience comes from within, to me is the ultimate and empowerment.

Mateo: 0:34

I had divorce papers signed and ready to go.

Angus: 0:37

Right in a funfair, we go up and down. We are not moving, we love each other and we go and we hate each other.

Mateo: 0:43

See, for the most part, I'm Pirates of the Caribbean where there's only one drop and one rise. Okay. Everything else is pretty pretty flat. My life, right? hers. It's corkscrewing. It's it jobs to track sometimes. It does crazy shit.

Alicia: 0:58

Basically diagnosing me with borderline personality disorder.

Angus: 1:02

Wow, you can see how mother in law's gets such a bad rap.

Alicia: 1:06

I'm not this monster.

Rohini : 1:08

No, we want her to decide what to do about the relationship. When she's on stable ground. I'm not saying that she would need to stay with him.

Angus: 1:18

You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross, and me Rohini Ross Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini : 1:28

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded, listen in as we guide a real couple back to their natural state of love.

Angus: 1:39

Relax, and enjoy the show. So I must say, I found this episode quite refreshing. After my exhaustive attempts to leave no stone unturned with Mateo. In this perspective, getting to see that odisea is not responsible for corrupting his sense of well being. You on the other hand, seem to do a masterful job in getting to see exactly that, with with the cards turned in the other direction. So Mateo is not responsible for corrupting her well being.

Alicia: 2:23

Well, she definitely had some lightbulb moments and I think, opened up her eyes to seeing things differently, which was really lovely. But she definitely started off blaming him and feeling like he was responsible for her behavior, through his behavior, and that pushed her to the brink.

Angus: 2:44

Yeah, but but nevertheless, you were then able to rather expertly in my estimation, use that as a way to clarify how he is not responsible for, for her suffering.

Alicia: 3:03

Based on what we talked about, this morning, and you kind of seeing things fresh and new, it seems like one of the, you know, I was reflecting on and thinking about the key themes, one was free for you seeing that, oh, when he gets destabilized, you don't need to take it personally. And then the other piece was the recognition that when you get stirred up, that the more you kind of understand what's happening for you, then the less likely you are going to be to react from that place. So does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. I think it's gonna be one of those things, it's gonna be a lot, not trial and error, so to speak, but a lot of practice, yeah, to recognize when he does go there. Because I, I view him in such a different perspective than everybody else in my life, essentially. And I view him with like, really high regard, is to try and remember, like, whatever he's saying, it's because he stood up and it's not like, yeah, me. Yeah, that's gonna take a lot of active practice, I think.

Rohini : 4:03

What makes it look like that might be difficult?

Alicia: 4:07

Um, I guess what would make it difficult as I think just the current state that we're in, we're like, I'm, I'm uneasy about it. Like, I just, I'm not completely certain where his head is at or what he's truly thinking, because sometimes, one of the things he's told me is like, Have you not seen the signs or this and that, and it's like, well, because she throw mixed signals at me, like, in a certain moment, you want to be all, you know, in a conversation, having fun, but then seconds later, like, you switch modes, and so I need to figure out how to navigate when that is to occur. And recognize that maybe now he's in the spots where and let him be there to start getting in my own head. Yeah. And so it sounds I just wanna make sure I'm understanding it sounds like he can run hot and cold. Extremely.

Rohini : 4:58

Okay, so he can be like, totally Final good and then for just a second, and then he's just like, yes, no. Okay.

Alicia: 5:05

And one thing that I've noticed is like when I changed my mode or mood to be that way, I'd be like, now I'm like, No, now you've upset me or something, then he retracts. It's like, I don't want that vicious cycle, because you've now hurt me now you're like, afraid and want to them, you guys. It's like, I'd rather live in the peace and harmony. And if there is a communication, you know, error or disagreement or whatever, like, let's acknowledge it in the moment, but then move past it like it doesn't need to be more than 10 minutes. And one of the things that he has said to me before is like, if we've gotten to like some sort of altercation nothing like really traumatic, but say like a 10 minute argument, that hasn't been a blow up, but just like disagreements minds, he he'll turn around be like, well, now you ruin my whole day. And I'm like, 10 minutes isn't your whole day for ruined? So I think those are like the other disconnects. Yeah, I'm able to leave things and leave them without having to reference in the past. But he definitely carries it on, he's admitted to like kick, he said, it takes him a little longer to process I'm going to teach him a day or so. And I'm like, to myself, and I wouldn't share that with him. Because I don't want to, like knock him for it. But I'm like, I don't think it's necessary to process for over four hours.

Rohini : 6:15

Right, right. Well, you're you're pretty adapt. And it sounds like you probably you know, this is modeled to you growing up like you can you can kind of get escalated, but then it's done over with move on. Like, you don't need to hold on to anything. So that's kind of something that you're just naturally inclined to do. Whereas it sounds like something happens. And then a kind of ruminates on it. And in takes a while before he's able to let it go.

Angus: 6:45

Yeah, it's interesting that she uses that word practice. And obviously, and I and I understand why she would use that word. I guess, for me, this is more a case of understanding. And I think that through the experience of taking on board, this understanding, really, I think how it unfolds, is the understanding gets clarified, and more clarified, and more clarified. And that's kind of really how we grow in, in our levels of consciousness through understanding, we just get better equipped to see the situation unfold in real time where we get caught up, and how we can make the other party responsible for how we what, in our, in our innocence, make the other party responsible for how we're feeling inside. And obviously, that is, is the direction that we are not pointing in?

Alicia: 7:37

Yeah, it's true, that it's about understanding, and you could look at it is a learning curve, that over time, it gets easier and easier to see that our experience comes from within it comes from the thoughts that we're identifying with in our own consciousness. And it isn't a direct one to one relationship between what someone is doing and what we're feeling that there's the variable of thought that's actually what we're experiencing.

Angus: 8:03

Yeah. And I think that the idea of having to practice would suggest that you got to work really hard at this, and you got to use the intellectual machinery to, in a sense, kind of summon up this technique in the moment, which I think is gonna be counter in a very profound way to what we're pointing to.

Alicia: 8:21

And I'm really looking for Alicia to see more clearly how Mateo isn't responsible for her experience, and in the last session, we looked at her being able to see his insecurity more, so that she was less likely to take what he was doing personally. And in this session, what I'm really hoping to achieve is that she can see how she can take better care of herself, so that she doesn't get pushed to the brink and feel compelled to behave in reactive way. I really want her to see that it's in her best interest. It isn't really about doing this for him. It's about her taking care of herself, and her having the benefit of that. But I think is also going to be helpful to understand what his how life looks through his lens. And because I hear two very different lenses, right, your lens seems very different than his lens. And it's not that it's not that his lens needs to be any different for actually things to go better between the two of you, because I know that it could be that well, if he was just more positive, then that would be way in. Why would he want to do all that ruminating? He's clearly suffering from it, you see things that you're like, why would you do that? It just doesn't make sense to you. But what I think would be helpful is for you to really be able to be putting yourself in his shoes and understand the logic of why he does it the way he does it. Not because you have to agree with it, but because understanding it is going to help you to be able to kind of, sort of get creative about how to navigate those, like we talked about, you know, you can figure out how to deal with frailties with people, like you'll be able to be more creative about navigating that with him. Even if you're not on the same page.

Angus: 10:24

This sort of sets Alicia up quite nicely to see the tail psychological innocence, I love the way that you prompting her to consider what it would be like to put yourself in Mateos shoes. And in that respect, I feel like she will start to maybe have a bit more compassion or start looking in the direction or having a bit more compassion.

Rohini : 10:50

Absolutely.

Angus: 10:51

Yeah, go ahead.

Rohini : 10:55

Thank you for your permission. I wasn't sure if you're finished, that's all.

Angus: 11:02

No. Well, I'm interested to see what your response to that would be.

Alicia: 11:06

I was really well, I wouldn't. I wasn't thinking in terms of psychological innocence. Although I agree, I was really looking at it in terms of increasing her empathy, for her to be able to have more understanding about his experience. And the natural byproduct of that would be for her to have more compassion. But that is another way of saying seeing his psychological innocence, which is really, I'm doing my best to try and have her see that he's doing the best that he can.

Angus: 11:37

Yeah, so so In this next segment, you're going to continue to help her see things from his perspective that you do not get and you do a really great job of that.

Alicia: 11:51

Would it make sense to you that pushing you away, is less scary than actually being close to you? I think for him, it is I think he's afraid that he may get to hurt if he Yeah, if he's too close to me. Yeah. But I think that's counterintuitive in a marriage. And in a relationship.

Rohini : 12:10

No, but could you see how that might make sense to him? Especially, you know, when you said that he says he has abandonment issues? Like it would make sense that if his constant fear is that you're not going to be there one day? See, none of this is rational. But it's it's kind of these. And a lot of it is invisible to us. We don't even realize that we're doing it, or we're doing it, but we think we're doing it for one reason, when really, it's another reason. Because it's invisible to us. But it's like if he's really on a deeper level, scared of intimacy. Right?

Alicia: 12:46

He's like, terrified. Like the more associates it has like sending mixed signals, because it's like, too intimate and means like, we're fine, Mike. Yeah, there's moments of that for sure. But then there's also just like, kind of awesome moments and needs. Yeah. You know, I think that sometimes TVs have a little bit more, I want to say like, more like a female, but like, he puts more pressure on it that way.

Rohini : 13:10

And what what do you mean by that?

Alicia: 13:11

Like, I think like, for women, obviously, we get very emotionally, like, tied up. Yeah, when there's intimacy, whereas men typically don't seem like they always do. And so I think that he views it very much like we do where it's like it has to be because it's like, true pure love. Right? So there's a lot. That's what you mean, by having a lot of pressure on him? Yeah. So. So again, because this is about what you can do in the situation, whether or not that shifts for him whether or not he has an insight that helps him feel safer in an intimate relationship. We don't know if that's going to happen initially. Right? But if you have someone who's scared, so fundamentally, what we're dealing with is his fear and his insecurity. It's bridging the gap so that he can see that it's safe. And so when you look at it that way, do you use? Do you see how the way you show up, bridges that gap? And do you see how the way you show up increases that gap? Do you see the differences?

Angus: 14:22

So what I'm beginning to notice about Alicia is that she's starting to get into a much better feeling. And I think there's a sort of proportional to that feeling is a is a, I don't know an attitude, which is starting to become philosophical, more philosophical, rather than judgmental like that.

Alicia: 14:45

Absolutely. I agree that she's able to take more of a step back and see things with more perspective. And so she's taking things less personally. And I did ask her quite a pointed question. In that, can she see how her behavior would have an impact on Matteo given that he's sensitive to reactivity? And she actually wasn't able to answer that question in the way that I posed it. So I did take a different tag to see if she was able to see from that perspective, how her behavior damages rapport with Mateo. And so I do that here. In September, when he finally told me, he was unhappy, and so far as looking at papers, it sounds like you had no idea before then. I was clueless. Okay, so he was keeping this all internal. And all of a sudden, you were gone a lot anyway. But then he says, In September, this isn't working for me. And his reasons, were... Nothing, I didn't want to be in this relationship anymore. That is the words like I'm not in love with you. So Alicia here really is adamant that she didn't know. And that this came completely out of the blue. And I think that that's important to take note, because it's difficult for all of us to take responsibility and personal accountability for our behavior, especially if we have shame associated with that. And I think that part of the reason why she starts off with this, I had no idea point of view is that that that's much more comfortable for her. And it's much more painful for her to actually see that some of her behavior was very difficult, and really had a negative impact on the relationship. And so it's really key for me to create a very safe space for her, so that she can take that step back, like I said earlier and have some neutrality, and be able to look at things without becoming consumed by shame for herself. And so that's what she was able to do here. So I really want to acknowledge her for her courage and her willingness to reflect. Because she was able to start looking more deeply and see things more clearly. That it was a part of his life, because I have my blow ups or whatever. And a lot of the times when I would have those blow ups, it would be because I'd be home. And I only have like four or five days at home and he's running off to hang out with his friends and I got jealous. Definitely. I want to spend time with you. Right, like when I'm away, and I'm away also, like, you can hang out with your friends. And I felt like I was the last priority. And that's something I've always expressed him as like, I never felt like I came first. Okay, I always felt like he I put him first. Okay. So in his mind, the the thing that he mentioned, was some blow ups was was hard for him. And I'm not saying this is accurate, but but to the best of what you you know, it could be in his mind that these blow ups are intolerable. I can't be married to someone who blows up this way. So we need to get a divorce. And he says it and but then he does really care about you and doesn't really want that. And so it doesn't move forward. But you've been in kind of this. No Man's Land? Yeah, for all this time since then, because he hasn't been able to really get on board with the marriage and with you as you are Right. I feel like sometimes he knows how to trigger me and like, because I think he's scared and insecure. Like, he almost wants to put me in the same state. And then and that makes sense. Because people what happens is, it's like if you have so everyone's moods go up and down, right? So you have two people, one person's in a low mood, let's say one person's in a good mood. Typically, one person is going to either pull that person down, or this person's going to help pull that one up. So when he gets into a low scared state, it sounds like he's kind of like, Oh, it's like the poll is to sort of join him down there. And then eventually do you blow up and then it's kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy where he's like, we No, see I can't be married to her look at what she does. That's exactly what it is.

Rohini : 19:24

Okay.

Alicia: 19:24

It's like he's always saying when's the next one? I'm like, you keep putting it out there to have another one. It's like, in the thing is with I've kind of shared like, one of my girlfriends is like, I feel like what the poking the bear is like, He's such a culprit. And then when he gets what he wants, then he turns into the victim. And it's like, That's not fair. Because I feel like I'm the victim. Like, I feel like I've been pushed to a certain point. Yeah. It's like, I don't want to be that like, I don't want to have a blow up like, yeah, I pull him so many times. I'm like, the book takes so much energy out of me. And then I have to come down from like it's not fine. As I'm listening, I'm looking for what? What seems most leverage and what I'm hearing where you're wanting to shift and where he's saying it would be helpful to him. It sounds like the, the blowing up doesn't feel good to you. And he would really like to have a different experience around that. And he's also saying that would be really great on his end to not there. There isn't his own stuff to work on. So from what we talked about this morning, how do you see that being helpful? Or is it even related to the blowing up? Like, what do you see about that now? I mean, I see how it's counterproductive. And I see that like, it doesn't help us. And it doesn't I know that. Sometimes I feel like, I feel like with him, like I say things so many times, like I stated earlier. And it just doesn't register. Yeah, semester, and then I start thinking in different ways. And then it still doesn't register. And then it gets me the point. I'm like, what will get you to wait? Yeah. So that's how he get his attention. But that's how I get his attention. Because otherwise, I feel like I'm being ignored, ignored, ignored.

Rohini : 21:12

Yeah.

Angus: 21:15

Well, um, she hasn't crossed over to the other side yet, in the sense that she still is thinking that Mateo is responsible for her suffering. But I do see a certain amount of tenderization that will perhaps lead to higher ground, or, or, or at least a higher vantage point where she will begin to see the sense in what you're pointing to,

Rohini : 21:44

Is that a new coaching term, tenderization?

Angus: 21:46

is a very important part of the coaching process. So as I'm concerned, Did I just snored here? ot

Rohini : 21:52

You did!

Angus: 21:58

To add a little bit of color to the whole experience.

Alicia: 22:01

So yes, and what I hear in this part is that you can really get a sense of what her logic is, like, part of what she's learned is that she has to blow up to get his attention. And so of course, she's gonna keep doing that, if that's the only way she gets his attention. The trouble is, it sounds like that the books just have to get more in order for her to grab his attention.

Angus: 22:27

So she's gotten the habit of throwing in this stun grenade so that she can get everything that she needs to say off her chest. The problem being is that she's using a little bit too much incendiary.

Rohini : 22:39

Otherwise, he doesn't pay attention to what she's saying.

Angus: 22:41

Right?

Alicia: 22:42

Yeah. Obviously, the rapport in the relationship is really suffering as a result of that. But I think it's important that, you know, we understand her logic and that she understands her logic, so that then she can start to see what the other alternatives might be, that would actually work better in the situation. And so we're just going to hear a little bit more about what her experience is like. your intentions, and what he experienced is they're not lining up, like your good intentions isn't being experienced, like what you were saying about wanting to, you know, know, have him know that you're on his team, and that you're on his side, and that that's not being experienced that way. Yeah. No. And it's, it's hard because I feel like and maybe this is because he's sensitive, or that he's insecure, or whatever. But I feel like everybody else can see that. I am on his team. Yeah. Right. And that my intentions are always been good and out of like, the goodness of my heart, but he knows it.

Rohini : 23:45

Yeah,

Alicia: 23:46

for whatever reason, like, he doesn't want to see that I'm good, because he wants to see me as this person that cuts people out of his life out of my life, but that's my protection or that I am. I sometimes, like have an issue with somebody like his mom, but like he said those names issues like, I just want to be respected in certain regards. When all of this transpired, you know, he didn't tell his friends and mom and everybody, like, oh, that he wanted to divorce like his mom cut me off, huh? Like, stop talking to me completely. Right as it came out. His mom sent him a book, um, then I guess, I guess she got to her therapist and whatnot. And it was like, basically diagnosing me with borderline personality disorder. Oh, my goodness. The title of book was run boy run and it like came to our house and I started reading it and I was like, I remember started crying. And this is like, right after I just had finished the relationship handbook. Because I didn't want him to get like, upset that I was upset or like get more angry at me. It was like I told him I was like, I'm just hearing because I realized that this is your mom's insecurity with Our situation and this was like her way of trying to help. But like, that does affect me. Like I think that that, like, it was such an attack on my character because when it came out, it's like, I'm a terrible person, I have these blow up, I have borderline personality disorder and it wasn't like I was the problem. And I feel like I'm viewed as now in front of people. Like, I feel like they're starting to see like, where it was both. But at the beginning, it was like I was this horrendous person. And like, that was really hard to deal with. Because I was like, I'm not this monster. Like, yes, I have issues. Everybody does. But like, it sucked. It eats me up and I like lose my appetite. And I'm upset, constantly crying, and I don't want to be constantly growing. Yeah, Yeah, no, I hear you. I'm glad you gave me sort of those additional details in terms of like the book. And so I guess it gives me a sense of how you're being perceived, and how extreme his experience is, even if that's not your experience. Like that's the intensity of what his experience is. Or how he's related it to people for them to draw the conclusions they do. And it's like it with him or like, given his mom like to do that. Like it's like, people forget how much I've done for him and like, how I didn't take on all the responsibility for us to have a household and everything like it just everything gets forgotten that I like you just saw all of a sudden I'm terrible person quit on her just divorced her and no one liked her anyway, or something like that. You know, it's like it. That's what hurts me. And then him not like, I don't need an apology for like the divorce thing or anything. But I feel like it needs to be like admitted to everybody like you that it was a mistake. Or that he doesn't want to be in this because I feel like I just get looked at like, yeah, in such a poor way. Or that I'm just like this idiot that begging for more abuse in a sense.

Angus: 27:01

Wow, you can see how mother in law's gets such a bad rap. I don't know how Alicia comes back from that in the sense that she could never forgive her mother in law. I'm sure she will. Hopefully she will. But that's that's quite a power play that. That really? I don't know, I would really take that very personally. If I didn't know what I know.

Rohini : 27:26

Now. Well, luckily, your mother in law isn't sending me books.

Angus: 27:33

That's, that's taking passive aggression to a whole different level.

Rohini : 27:39

But anyway...

Angus: 27:39

Maybe we not so passive. That sounds like out now warfare, as far as I'm concerned. See?

Alicia: 27:44

Well, let's come back to focusing on Alicia Matteo. And, you know, clearly, Alicia does have some idea as to why Matteo served with divorce papers, I'm glad that she's able to share all of this information with me now, because I'm sure it was difficult for her. But we're getting to see a fuller picture as to what was really going on between them and how it got to that point. And we can really hear how much she's suffering, how she feels misunderstood. She's taking it very personally. She's not only upset that she feels judged by other people, but I also think she's judging herself as a terrible person.

Angus: 28:29

Yeah, the the divorce papers are one thing, but I think if the mother in law had her way, she'd have men in white coats coming round to put Alicia in a straight jacket.

Alicia: 28:40

Anyway. So really, you know, looking at the theme of psychological innocence, Alicia is doing the best that she can with the understanding that she has just like Matteo is doing the same thing. And really what I'm looking to help her with and lean into in the next segment is I really want her to see how she can become more stable within herself, and how ultimately, that's going to benefit her, no matter what happens in the relationship. It gets to the point where, like yesterday, like the blow up did turn around and I was just like, now I'm done. Like now you've pushed me to the point of no return. I was like, give me the papers. I'm signing. I was like, I don't want to go to therapy. I don't want to. I was like I'm done. I was like you literally are just hurting me. Yeah. And this is been like seven months of extreme pain and roller coaster. And as soon as I say that, then he retreats and he's like, No, I want us to be forever and I want us to go to therapy together and I want like, okay, so if you know all that Why are you still gonna, like not work with me there?

Rohini : 29:54

Yeah. Well, as we talked about, when his state of mind gets destabilized, As kind of all bets are off. And it seems like it feels, you know, unfair that you kind of being yourself has been perceived in this sort of diagnoseable extreme behavior. But sort of I want to kind of put that aside and really look at what feels better to you. You know. And what I hear you say is that you're recognizing that it feels better you to feel more stable internally and to not. And I would say it would be more empowering for you to have that internal stability in a way that you can't really be provoked. Let's say he, whether he's doing it consciously or unconsciously, you'll feel better, not kind of being able to be pushed to that point.

Alicia: 30:53

Absolutely. But he knows what triggers me too. And it's something that I you know, during our first sesion.

Rohini : 30:59

Yeah. So what do you see as the triggers that are most difficult to not be provoked by.

Alicia: 31:09

Right now that triggers that are provoking need are definitely like him saying divorce, or leaving or all of that? Where they he's uncertain. And he's not certain about us, either. He doesn't know if he wants this forever. And this and that, like that old triggers me.. And puts me in that state of fear.

Rohini : 31:28

Yeah. And then you blow up?

Alicia: 31:30

Well, I internalize it, internalize it, till I blow up, because I'm like, Oh, my God, you're giving me nothing. Like, like, anytime you said that to me. I've literally just been like, Okay, I'm gonna give you your space. Yeah, back off, and I don't speak about it then. But then it's like a few more actions or a few more things. And then I'm like, Well, now I'm literally like, nice. That was three times now. I'm like, Oh, my God. Like you said, it takes to make the marriage work. And I feel like, I've been holding the marriage. And my girlfriend this past week told me she's like, from what I've seen, it's like, you're the only one doing the work keeping the marriage together. And I'm like, that's not a good feeling inside. It's fun for me to know that other people are seeing that.

Rohini : 32:12

Yeah.

Alicia: 32:13

Like I see them. And I have marriage, friends and happy marriages. Like, I'm doing all the work. And like I said, like, doesn't even make like a bowl pasta for me or like, you know.

Rohini : 32:26

So let's say he gets over his fear. And it's like, Okay, I'm really, I'm really back in. Now, what, what gets him stirred up is he doesn't deal well, with emotional reactivity. You know, whether it's from his history, like, for whatever reason, he doesn't have the staying power to be able to handle emotional reactivity. So and you're saying you don't really like, know that much of it anyway. So it's that it's Win win on both sides. So let's say he's, you know, he's in but he's going to have his moments of, you know, doing all of these things that he occasionally does, hopefully, not with the same kind of intensity, but he's not going to be perfect. What I would say for you is going to be and This to me is really about personal empowerment, is to be able to write out your emotional experience, in a way that's better for you. It's as a byproduct, it's going to be better for him. But that's not the purpose of it. The main reason is, it's going to be better for you. Yeah, the byproduct is it is going to be better for the relationship. So what I want you to start to see and you can just be reflecting on this, you know, as we're talking in between the sessions, and just kind of recognizing, like, what, what starts to give you the clue that you're getting activate like before the blow up has to be before the blow up. But like what starts to let you know that you're getting stirred up.

Alicia: 34:03

Not kissing me goodbye before you leave the house or coming in and out saying hello gives me Hello. Lack of intimacy. Especially like when I've tried to like even come up to him. So those are all of the externals, but what how do you know internally, how do you what do you notice is sort of like what are the the emotional signals the physiological signals that let you know that you're starting to get stirred up? Um, definitely, like words or like, even just like any bit of communication, like we don't really text throughout the day or anything,

Rohini : 34:43

But I'm talking about your feelings state, like what what would let like what would be an early warning signal internally for you? that lets you know that you're getting stirred up.

Alicia: 34:53

Oh, overthinking.

Rohini : 34:55

Okay, and how does that feel?

Alicia: 34:57

Like an anxiety rush.

Rohini : 34:59

Okay. So you feel like the like, beating your heart beating fast.

Alicia: 35:04

So uncertain, nervous. So that's so if we're looking at, you know, this being the baseline of peace and well being, and this being, you know, full blown panic attack, you're noticing it. So when it's kind of like a seven out of 10 , so what I want you to start to get more familiar with is what is it two and a three and a four feel like, because that's going to help you to take better care of yourself. So when you're at a seven and eight, you know all that it's like the, the feelings are pretty strong. And it's, it's kind of like just the trains left the station, almost, you just got to write it out. But when you start to notice for like, I'm getting a little stirred up to three, then there's much more of a likelihood to be able to course correct and get yourself settled, without having to go through the full full on experience of anxiety.

Angus: 36:02

Well, what I'm noticing here is that, once again, you're doing a very good job of trying to steer Alicia in a direction where she can have, hopefully some insight and some clarity around the role of thought, and also her state of mind. More importantly. So I think the value in that is that she will now hopefully start to consider what are some of the areas where she gets caught up, she starts to recognize where she even begins that process of getting caught up. And she starts to hopefully recognize that quicker. And so you're doing a great job and trying to familiarize her with that idea that there is an enormous benefit to be garnered from being able to recognize where one state of mind is, and how it can lead lead us into wreck and ruin pretty quickly. If in a low mood, we start throwing shots, you know that fire? So I like the idea that that's something that she would consider. And it's it's Yeah, I think that would be a turning point for her if she can really take that on board.

Alicia: 37:15

Yeah, I'm really aware of how externally focused she is, she's really not able to identify very easily any of her internal cues in terms of what her state of mind is and how she's doing. She's very much referencing the things that Mateo does or doesn't do. And and that makes sense, because she thinks that that's what's responsible for her behavior. But I'm hoping here that I'm planting some seeds and, and pointing her very directly to how she can become more attuned to her internal experience and the signals that her emotions give her and actually see how to take better care of herself of that as a result of that. And that, ultimately, this is for her own well being and state of mind that she pays attention to these cues, rather than paying attention to what matea is doing or not doing, when she starts to notice that she's in that place of overthinking or that she's starting to feel anxiety, when she uses her emotions as a way to give her that signal, then that can give her pause and help remind her to take care of herself so that she puts the oxygen mask on herself first, and is able to meet her own needs in that way. So that she's not letting herself you know, go to the brink of a blow up. And then it doesn't take probably very much for it to tip over into some escalation at that point. So I'm really hoping that she's getting the care that I have about how she is doing and all of this and that there's a way for her not to be a victim to potato, there's a way for her to take personal responsibility for taking care of herself. And that's going to ultimately help her to get a more stable ground. And, you know, we want her to decide what to do about the relationship. When she's on stable ground. I'm not saying that she would need to stay with him. But I want her to be able to make that decision for the clearest place inside of herself possible.

Angus: 39:34

Yeah, that's that's really fantastic. And then what I like about this next segment that's coming up, it's almost like you're helping Alicia unwrap this care package of understanding that's beginning to help her see that she's not responsible for retail suffering.

Rohini : 39:59

He says you have blowouts it also sounds like he's saying things to.

Alicia: 40:03

Oh, yeah

Rohini : 40:03

So he has his own blow ups. It's not like he's not having them as well.

Alicia: 40:07

It's just not like a screaming and...

Rohini : 40:09

Okay, so it's not as potentially high intensity, but it's still something.

Alicia: 40:14

Yeah.

Rohini : 40:15

Okay. So, you have your sort of bandwidth of what you can handle. And he has his bandwidth of what he can handle. And it sounds like there's going to need to be adjustments on both ends, right. So you don't want as much of the, you know, negativity coming your way feels like, you know, I can't, you know, it needs to decrease some in order for me to be okay. And he's saying the same thing. It sounds like when he says the blow ups are too much, that he can't handle as much of those blobs from you. So there's you both kind of asking each other for some behavior modification, shall we say? Yeah, to make it easier on each other? Now that part of it. To me, when there's a goodwill and, and good feeling in the relationship, you guys figure that out? You'll figure out how to not have so many blow ups, and have it not scare him basically figure out how to not scare him. And he'll also with goodwill, figure out how not to hurt your feelings, not to perfect, right. So it's not like you're never ever gonna have a blow up again. It's not he's never gonna be mean again. But decrease it enough so that it's more manageable and more of a good feeling rather than bad feeling.

Alicia: 41:38

Yeah, I mean, that that is, you know, essentially what I would love to get to.

Rohini : 41:42

Yeah. So the goodwill piece, then, is going to be key. And it sounds like you've been doing your best to give him space. Yeah. But it's sort of at the expense of you feeling like you're walking on eggshells. So it doesn't really increase goodwill, because it's not even like you actually feel worse, and you're trying to take care of him. But you're actually end up feeling worse. So it doesn't increase goodwill, because you're feeling worse.

Alicia: 42:15

Yeah. So it's also my interpretation that the blow ups are like, the main cause it's like, I also don't know cuz he's not letting me in. Like, it could be other stuff that I'm doing it I wouldn't know. Right?

Rohini : 42:27

Well, at least let's just work with what we know. So far. So that's what you know. And then you get that book coming in? I mean, there's a big there's a hint that something's going on around that. I'm curious, since he sort of pulled the rug out and said, You know, I don't think I don't I don't know if I want to be married to you. Has this impacted the blow outs between the two of you at all? Or is it been worse, better?

Alicia: 42:55

It's impacted them in a way that I keep a lot more inside?

Rohini : 43:03

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So would you say that? You're kind of it's almost like you're on notice, basically. And so you're having to try to behave? feel like you're, you know, yeah, having to behave a certain way or else you know, that's it. So I'm wondering, I guess what I'm thinking about is because this pressure of walking on eggshells, I'm thinking about how, at least during this time, while you're here, how to take that pressure off of you.

Alicia: 43:38

I think it would be for there to be an understanding if I say something, don't take it completely to heart and put it in the negative and comparing yourself to

Rohini : 43:50

So let's say he does that. Let's say you're just yourself and he takes it the wrong way. Would it end if you were able to not take that personally? If it's like, oh, yeah, this happens. He does it sometimes, It would that...

Alicia: 44:04

yes, but I feel like it hurts my feelings to think that I hurt his.

Rohini : 44:07

So what if.. Okay, this is really important. What if it's not your fault? If you hurt his feelings?

Alicia: 44:14

I still would feel guilt over hurting him.

Rohini : 44:17

But what if... see that guilt doesn't make sense if it's not your fault. So let's talk about feelings. So feelings we, like we talked about earlier. We feel our thoughts, right. So just like you have thoughts and you feel the impact of your thoughts, he has thoughts and he feels the impact of his thoughts. You saying something doesn't hit him? He feels his thinking. So you could be saying something really lovely. But his thinking is really negative. And he's feeling his thinking he's not feeling what you're saying. Are you saying that you would feel guilty?

Alicia: 44:59

If I upset him? Yeah.

Rohini : 45:01

Even though it's his own thinking?

Alicia: 45:03

Yeah, because I would feel like I would end up either being convinced that it's my fault.

Rohini : 45:10

But did he convince you?

Alicia: 45:11

Yeah.

Rohini : 45:11

Okay. So this is where I want you to kind of just get really clear. It's not your responsibility, why he feels ever, even if you behave badly, it's not your responsibility, how he feels ever. So I want you to hear that in a way that it kind of you get it experientially, because the way that you're feeling this pressure of walking on eggshells is actually because of this more than it is because of him because of the guilt that you're feeling. And if he can convince you that you're responsible for how he feels, well, it's actually on you to see it clearly. So that he can convince you of that. So you could be so let's say, Angus is screaming at me. If I feel bad, that's on me. That's not on him. I'm not condoning that. But my feelings are coming from what's going on here. It's not coming from what's happening there. I might be guy, he's having a really bad day, he's freaking out. I might be Oh my God, I'm a worthless human being like, that's gonna be determined by what's going on here. And it's not his fault. how I feel. Yeah, it's on him to do his best to behave as best he can. But it's not his responsibility, how I feel. So for that, to get really clear inside of you, because the way that it's set up is that he's telling you you're responsible for how he's feeling. And you're saying, Oh, yes, I am.

Alicia: 46:44

Yeah.

Rohini : 46:46

And what I'm saying is Oh, no, you're not. Yeah. And for you to see that, you'll have an immunity to whatever he throws your way. So it's like, you know, when there, someone throws you the hot potato is like, you catch it to burn. It's like, not mine. Yeah. Not mine. It's like, you're responsible for me to feel bad. Not mine. Yeah. You know, you don't have to catch that hot potato, because it's not you. You 100% cannot be responsible for how someone else feels? Because it's coming from inside of them. Yeah. So you being you, if he gets bothered by it, you can course correct. what's what's happening? Is that because you're reacting to his taking things negatively, you're not able to kind of have perspective on how to course correct. But you're kind of going way over here. Yeah. When it's like, oh, he's just having a bad day, you would course correct, you know, in a different way not to go all the way over here and feel bad and sad and guilty about it. You see what I'm saying? So what I want you to experiment with, and this is maybe going to take a little undoing because you've been walking on eggshells for a while, but I want you to experiment if you're willing, with leaning into what feels natural to you, not what you're meant to manage yourself to do. So if that's but but in a in a way that's respectful. So it's like if you want to play really love music or whatever, I don't know what it's gonna be. But it's like, you'll check it out with him like, but you follow the inclination first? Yeah, you don't know. He doesn't want that. Oh, I shouldn't do that. Like, because that's the overthinking coming in. What I want you to just kind of lean into is that freedom, like when you talk about like a little girl like to just lean into that. That's you? That's you unfiltered? Yes. You know,

Alicia: 48:43

Talkative and they don't shut up because I'm like a Chatty Cathy. But that's just like me.

Rohini : 48:47

Yeah. And so you do that. And then you notice I Oh, he wants quieter in the you ask, Do you need some quiet? But yeah, you're talking too much. Rather than, you know, making yourself feel bad that you did something right. It's okay. You go call a friend or something. But you just but it's not walking on eggshells to make sure that he's okay. Because you are not responsible for him being okay. You can't be Yeah. And you're never going to be able to get that right. Because you can't be responsible for him be okay. If he's not okay, that's on him. And even if he's not okay, and he tells you it's your fault, he's not okay. It's still on him. Now, I'm not giving you carte blanche to just freak out on it. I want to be clear. Yeah. No, it's it's like obviously for you. You don't want that. You know, but it's not got anything to do with him being okay.

Alicia: 49:45

Yeah, I get, I mean, I can definitely see that. What I'm addressing in this past segment is that the way that Alicia is working so hard To not upset Matteo it's contributing to the likelihood that she's going to end up having one of her blowouts. And she's not seeing that. She's going around walking on eggshells trying to manage her experience by managing his experience because she thinks, if she can manage to not upset him, then she won't be upset. But it ultimately ends up just giving her so much pressure, and makes you know, life much harder. And ultimately, I think ends up building resentment, and then the blow ups naturally flow from there. What do you think?

Angus: 50:37

I think, I think it's like, she's just jumped into a swimming pool of feeling like a kid thinking they can hold their breath for an inordinate amount of times. And at some point, she's gonna have to exhale and her exhaling in her world is to have a blowout, and to probably unleash a whole barrage of vitriol on on in the materials direction.

Rohini : 51:05

One of the other ways that she puts that pressure on herself too, is that she's carrying that responsibility of how he feels that she sees that she's responsible for how he feels so that she has to get it right. And if she doesn't get it right, then she's responsible for him feeling badly. Now, I want to be clear, because this could be quite a controversial point. That, from what we're sharing, and from the understanding that we're pointing to is that our experience comes from inside of ourselves. And so we experience the thoughts that we're identifying with. Now, that doesn't mean that we're condoning someone behaving badly. So that, as I said to her in that segment doesn't give her cop blanche to do whatever she wants no matter what. But what it actually does, when we understand that we each have our own experience, that's a reflection of the thoughts that we're identifying within the moment that reflect the level of mood that we're at. It takes the pressure off ourselves, we allow ourselves to relax and be ourselves. And it's so much easier to be comfortable in a relationship this way, when you're not responsible for how someone else is feeling. And rather than that, creating worst behavior, and actually that letting go and realizing you're not responsible, takes the pressure off and actually brings out the best in people rather than the worst.

Angus: 52:45

Yeah, when I was listening to you interact with her, it was kind of like, for me, it was almost like you're this optician giving her all these different lenses to try on with all these different ways of pointing to this understanding and what you were trying to share with her. And she and you're kind of like saying, Yeah, do you see now do you see it now. And at some point in this whole exchange, I felt like she did really see something. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, we would be playing choirs of angels, and that being rapturous applause but I think that you really got it to a point where she did really tune in and see something new.

Rohini : 53:31

I think she's starting to feel the pressure, leave her which is really good. So we'll see how it goes in the next section.

Alicia: 53:47

For you to see that he's not fragile. He may behave fragile, but that's a misunderstanding going on within him. And what will be helpful for his misunderstanding is for you to not buy into it. And for you to not feel guilty for how he feels. Because it's got nothing to do with you. And so for you being you, and you know, sometimes you're gonna step on his toes, and sometimes you're not like you just being you innocently living your life being how you are. You're not responsible for how he feels. Yeah. So how does that land for you? Um, it kind of, again, like eye opening, because I've definitely taken on like feelings and blaming somebody for it as well.

Rohini : 54:45

Right? Yeah, it can go the other way too.

Alicia: 54:46

Yeah. So just like putting myself in his shoes in that sense. Like, I've been like, well, you made me upset, right? Yeah. And it's, I guess it's a matter of manipulating your brain to be in like, you're just upset to be upset like that. But

Rohini : 55:00

Yeah, it's like, you won't have to manipulate your brain, if you see the truth in it. So that's what I want you to kind of really like, kind of feel into what's really true, like, Where does your experience really come from? Like, if you really kind of feel into that is like, Is it really possible for somebody to make you feel a certain way? Or is it that you're going to feel whatever thoughts you're having in the moment, and the way that you can kind of check this out, as you will see that there's probably times we're in a really good mood. And he behaves like a dick. And you're like, oh, whatever, not a big deal. And then there's other times where you're not in a good mood, and he maybe behaves kind of okay, and you have a bad experience. So that tells you like, well, then it can't really be coming from outside of you cannot, right, because it changes based on what your state of mind is, right. So the more you use, like this, why this is so powerful, is it's so liberating, because then we can never be the victim to our circumstance, or to another person, because all we are if we're a victim to anything is our own state of mind. And we're not really a victim to our state of mind, because it naturally clears itself up. So we're always going to come out of it. But being able to see that that's all that we're ever at the effect of it takes the pressure off the relationship, that takes the pressure off of you having to be perfect for him. And it also will wake you up when you start to feel like a victim to him and realize like, Wait a second, I'm not a victim. I'm just caught up in my own thinking, and you can take care of yourself. Even if you know you can't control him, you can still take care of yourself. So it's win win both ways. So you take the pressure off of yourself and being responsible for making him happy, which you can't do, and getting it right and not upsetting him. And, and the trouble with that setup is that it's going to be more likely to get you to blow up than less likely. Like that's putting so much pressure on you that eventually you're going to blow. Right. So that's not working. And it's when when the other way, because now you're also not a victim to his low moods. If you're having a hard time, if you're feeling like you're responsible for how I'm feeling, you can kind of wake up to wait a second, this is just my low mood. You know, I'm going to go watch TV or I'm going to go work out or I'm going to you know, I'm going to play that game that you're talking about, like, I know how to be with myself when I'm going to low mood not to get yourself out of the mood even just to not have that low mood impacts you so much. Right? Because you will naturally come out of it. That just happens. So does this feel like a different way of relating?

Alicia: 57:57

It definitely does, like I definitely put myself as a victim to be like, Oh my god, I just made him upset this that. And it's like, well, no one should have that much power ever.

Rohini : 58:08

And it just doesn't work that way. Like it just doesn't work that way. So the more that you can kind of just see like, Yeah, he has his moods, he gets stirred up, he gets into low mood when he gets into low mood. He sometimes blames me for how I feel how he feels. But it's like, I'm not taking the hot potato. Yeah, maybe he's throwing it out, you'd be like, No, thanks.

Alicia: 58:32

It's like the tennis machine just keeps

Rohini : 58:35

Whatever. And so maybe you know, you have to go sit in the other room, if he's lobbing them at you. But you're just like, it's not my but the most important thing is that it doesn't land inside of you so that you feel guilty. Yeah, because that's where it starts creating maladaptive coping strategies inside of you. Because now you're feeling guilty scenario trying to, you know, mold yourself. Exactly, exactly. And that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So if you know, hey, all I'm dealing with here is his little mood. Yeah, no need for me to get into one over it. Or if you take it personally, well, now I'm dealing with my low mood. It's not his fault. Let me just take care of myself. I'll come out of it, you'll have so much more resilience. Yeah, you'll also have so much more creativity about how to deal with his low mood.

Alicia: 59:24

Yeah. I think that if you're not taking this personally as much, and that you're not feeling guilty as much, even if and I'm not saying I want him to stay in a low mood, but you will have so much more resiliency in the face of his low mood, where it doesn't negatively impact your life in the same way. Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

Rohini : 59:46

Can you see that?

Alicia: 59:47

Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, I just, I've definitely given I guess, in that sense too much power. Yeah. It's like It's a misunderstanding. Like, somehow you You have to get it right so that he's okay. Yeah. And then I feel like I had to, like justify what I said and like sell it. Yeah. And it's like, that's not fun to either like. Yeah, so this is like, Well, my bad. I mean, a lot of words, I don't want it to be because I'm protecting myself or defending myself to be like, some sort of shut up. But the if you're not feeling guilty, you don't need to do that. Like, oh, you took it that way. Yeah. And then, and it's not I don't want this to come across as like You're heartless because it's not that it's like not feeling guilty and responsible actually has to stay more open hearted rather than last. Because the the guilt and the pressure on yourself it kind of has you go inward and have less available to give. And that takes its toll on the goodwill that's there. Yeah. Yeah, because it definitely like shuts me down at times. Yeah, well, why wouldn't that right? It's like, you can't feel it. You can't get it right. Yeah. And then I like turned to a friend and just cry it out. Yes. Like, that's not funny either.

Rohini : 1:01:09

No and the more you can see, like, Oh, that's you taking it personally. That's you feeling guilty. That's you thinking that somehow you could be responsible for how he feels. doesn't work that way. Just like, you know, if I have a pen, and I drop it on me, let it go. It's gonna fall to the ground. That's how gravity works. It never goes up. Yeah, it is not gonna go sideways. It's always gonna go. And ways we feel our own thoughts. That's just how it works can't work any other way. We cannot be responsible for someone else. How they feel our own conscience will have us behaved in the best way that we can. Not because we're responsible for someone else's feelings, but because we want to bring out the best in ourselves.

Alicia: 1:01:57

I definitely think so. It's like, for me just, I think letting go the guilt would be like, tremendous. Yes. That That, to me, seems really huge. So for you, what do you see about letting go the guilt? Like do you see what I'm saying? Like, does it resonate as true to you that you're not responsible for how he feels? Now? Yeah,

Rohini : 1:02:18

it does resonate is true.

Alicia: 1:02:20

Yeah. He can, I guess, we can all perceive the sky is blue and 20 different ways. Where he can believe you're responsible for how he feels. That could be his experience. But that's not the truth. Just like, you know, someone can say, pence float up when you let go of them. But I'm like, Oh, they go down. Yeah, right. So he can believe whatever he wants. But I want you to know what's true. Now, obviously, Angus is going to be telling him all the same kinds of things that we're talking about. But what I care about is that you see how it works. You see where your experience comes from. And you see where his experience comes from? I think that I think that like really resonates, though, is to understand which this has never clicked before is that he may believe something. But that is not the truth. That's for me to find peace within that.

Rohini : 1:03:12

That's right, that it's okay for him to believe that. Yeah, because that's how he sees it. You don't have to agree with it, you also don't have to buy into it. And he'll eventually figure it out. But I thought was really great here is that without me having to say anything, that Alicia flipped things around and realize that well, if she's not responsible for how Mateo feels, then he also can't be responsible for how she feels. And so she started to put those dots together for herself that the way that she's been blaming him for how she's feeling that it can't work that way. And that, ultimately, they're both better off. Understanding. That experience comes from within. And so as much as she in the past is wanting to blame Mateo for how badly she's feeling. I think she can actually feel some relief and saying that it doesn't work that way.

Angus: 1:04:12

Well, I think you're, you're guilty of underselling yourself in the sense that you feel like you didn't have to say anything. I think that this is attach a textbook teaching piece for me, in terms of how you were guiding her it was almost I was thinking at the time as I was listening to this, that it's almost like you are the salesperson, and Alicia is your client. And you're setting your point of view, you're basically selling understanding. And it just feels like it would be the point in a sales experience. If you were to observe it as an independent observer, where you could see Yeah, the sales person has really nailed it now. They kind of won them over and the client in the way that they're responding, you've got to that, that point where you can now go into the office and draw up a contract. or, or, or execute, you know, thought out the financing. She was basically, you know, she's now really bought into what you're selling, which I think is really beautiful. And I think you do an awesome job of getting to that point.

Rohini : 1:05:23

Thank you

Angus: 1:05:24

You should come salesperson says.

Rohini : 1:05:26

I'm thinking that I don't think I'm selling anything. I think that I'm just pointing her to see how it actually works. And I guess I understand your metaphor, but it's really quite simple when you see how it works.

Angus: 1:05:40

Yeah. Really fantastic job.

Rohini : 1:05:44

Thank you. All right, let's listen to the final section.

Alicia: 1:05:55

Beliefs are people's beliefs. But I know the truth.

Rohini : 1:05:57

Yeah, you don't need to take it personally.

Alicia: 1:05:59

Right.

Rohini : 1:06:00

You know, that's so what? What does it even matter? Then people can have whatever labels they want it like everybody has label, right? Yeah. It's like, it doesn't really, it doesn't mean anything anymore. doesn't mean anything about you doesn't mean anything to you. It's like it's it's you you're Teflon in that way. Because like, Well, so what someone calls you a pink elephant. Okay, whatever. Like it doesn't mean anything to you. Five. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, it only it only stings. If we take it on? Yeah. Right. And you don't need to take that on. And you absolutely do not need to take on his well being. And I don't think he wants you to take it on. No, I don't think he wants to take it on. I think that he's confused about where his experience comes from. But there's so much more relief when it's 100%. Our own responsibility. Not that we can control it. It is coming 100% within us.

Alicia: 1:07:01

Yeah. Yeah, no victims anywhere, then. It would be nice. So for you, to the degree that you feel like you're walking on eggshells. That's the degree that you're forgetting that you're not responsible for his experience. Completely. Right. So that's how you measure it. Like if you so it's not his fault that you're walking on eggshells anymore. It's you forgetting that you're not responsible for his experience. Yeah. Right. So that's gonna be your measurement, the more at ease, relaxed and just yourself. Young Yo, like, that's what you're looking for. And the more I Oh, really, oh, I'm thinking I'm responsible for him. And it doesn't mean that you can even change it in that moment. But at least you'll know what's going on, if you like, it just won't engage understanding that,

Rohini : 1:07:56

Like I would be so much easier, not engaged, understanding that, and the resentment goes way down, because now it's not his fault anymore, that you're walking on eggshells. It's like, Oh, I'm thinking I'm responsible for how he feels. You're doing it to yourself. You don't need to do that yourself.

Alicia: 1:08:12

It's because I'm being told like your fault. Your fault, your fault. you're doing it.

Rohini : 1:08:15

Yeah, yeah. But it's like, I want you to be so clear about this. Like, this is like me saying, your skin is purple. Yeah, your skin is profitable. Like it doesn't matter how many times I say that seems like, whatever, lady, you're crazy. You're like, so it's like it wouldn't land. . So I want you to see the so clearly that he can say to you, you're responsible for how I feel. And you're like, that's your experience. But it's not mine. Like you don't take it on. Yeah, like it doesn't go. Oh, man, I feel guilty. Right. Oh, I messed up. How, I screwed up.! Like, when you're clear, you'll be like, he's stirred up and he thinks it's my fault. Now you may have let's say you behaved badly, right? You'll have your own conscience about, oh, I could do that better next time. So that's separate. It's not you being responsible for how he feels. Right? You're going to be on your own learning curve of how to behave better, and you know, figure things out. But it still doesn't make you responsible for how he feels.

Alicia: 1:09:21

Like, that's like a revelation. Yeah, that I mean, that's why I keep saying, because I just want it to just land and, and for you to just see how you do that to you. Yeah, you make yourself responsible. And even if he tells you, you're responsible, it doesn't make you responsible. It's on you if you take it on. Yeah. And the more clearly see this and I don't see it clearly 100% of the time. So it's not like there's a perfection here. This is an ongoing learning curve for me to write, but the more clearly you see it, the more inner freedom you have and that brings out the best in you Yeah, it doesn't bring out the worst that you brings out the best in you, doesn't mean you're gonna be perfect, but he's gonna get the best of you. And that is good for the relationship, the best of you. Right? Yeah. And like, it's not comfortable to be on eggshells. It's not comfortable. Like...

Rohini : 1:10:15

No, that's not the worst of you.

Alicia: 1:10:17

Yeah. And that's why when I say like, the 90%, that I'm happy, it's like, there's a few little percent that I'm happy at home. But like, throughout the day, like, as crazy and chaotic as my life is, yeah, like, I do find the happiness. And I don't really take on a lot of like, you know, people perceiving me in a poor way. And maybe that's also because, you know, I've created myself to be such a strong individual as well, that I'm just like, Well, I do everything great. And I'm, you know, all that stuff. I'm not that great. But yeah, but I feel like I've both like boasted my own self to not fall into that need a day, but for whatever reason, I fall into it in my relationship.

Rohini : 1:10:56

Yeah. So that's kind of the blind spot where it's looking like you are responsible. Yeah. And so it's like, now you can be like, oh, here to not responsible. And, and while you're here, I would say like this whole Limbo state, I would say, like, you're together. You're here together, you're here working on your relationship together. Just be in whether he's in or not. You're in that way. It's like he's clearly here. He's not leaving, at least at this point. So now, it's in so that you're not like, in that thought process, too, is like, okay, we're in. Let's take it one day at a time right time right now.

Alicia: 1:11:35

And that's definitely my downfall is like, I'll be like, in the moment, then I'm like, wait a second leave now. Or like, yeah,

Rohini : 1:11:41

Yeah. If you go down that rabbit hole. See how that's basically you telling yourself a scary story? Yeah. Right. So it's like, No, I'm not going to tell myself a scary story I'm going to enjoy here. I'm going to enjoy now. And I'm going to enjoy what is. And if he can enjoy now what is, that's not your problem and it's not your fault. You can do that for you.

Alicia: 1:12:04

Totally, I think that I do have an issue with living in the moment a lot. Because I live in the future.

Rohini : 1:12:10

And so for your job you have to write. So it's like you have a really great skill set. But it's not good for your relationship. And it's not good for you on an emotional level for anything emotional. So you're going to be learning how to kind of be here for emotional things for relationship things and use that skill set for, you know, planning work or planning your vacations or whatever you need to plan and do things with that to get much better. Like here and now this is what is a stay here.

Alicia: 1:12:46

Yeah. And believe it because, like, I shouldn't be so insecure right now. I should...

Rohini : 1:12:53

Well, the insecurities when you go down that rabbit hole, right? And as soon as you notice yourself going there be like, Whoa, that's not good for you. Just kind of bring yourself back. And you'll like when you said, you know, you get you realize, Oh, I'm overthinking. It's the same thing. You're like, Oh, I'm going down the insecure rabbit hole. I'm just gonna bring myself back because it's not good for you. It doesn't help. The relation is not figuring anything out is is scaring yourself in the moment. Yeah. It's like having a little kid and you're telling them a bedtime story. You're telling a really scary story. Let's not good for that little kid to go to sleep and feel safe and feel secure. So you don't want to do that to yourself. It's not going to help you to feel better in the moment.

Alicia: 1:13:33

Yeah, no...

Rohini : 1:13:35

But if you're doing it, there's something compelling you to do it. So you have to realize like, wait, this doesn't make any sense. Right? There's nothing good that comes from that. So you just bring yourself back into the here and now.

Alicia: 1:13:46

Yeah, yeah, definitely need to catch myself doing that. When I catch myself overthinking. Well, you'll notice your feelings that when we talked about that anxiety, or you'll just get more recognition of when you're getting elevated, and you'll catch yourself sooner because the only way you're getting elevated, it's got nothing to do with him is when you're engaging with your thoughts in a certain way. Yeah, I mean, like, just referencing, like, yesterday, I guess, like, my expectation or like, whatever I was thinking was like we'd leave at a certain time, but didn't express that plan, either. But then just putting too much like allowing my thoughts to get me upset when there really wasn't like a set plan...

Rohini : 1:14:31

Right, that it was not clear. you know, there's an assumption maybe, it wasn't clear. Yeah. And so that's you getting on board with all that thinking. Right. And that's what you were feeling. And then when he comes home, we like, Yeah, right. And it's like, oh, but that's what you've been going down. . And then he's like, What does hit me?

Alicia: 1:14:53

Totally. And I think like a lot of it would kind of like came about was like Okay, let's work early. So I could take the dog and do all this. And be responsible then I just felt like it wasn't reciprocating the sense of responsibility. But it's

Rohini : 1:15:05

Yeah, but see, those are the practical things, right? But where you go in your head and the emotions go up, it's like those practical things get free like next time like, Oh, well, maybe next time, you could let you work those out from rightful place, right. But when you go down that road of, you know, frustration, anger, disappointment, like whatever that is, and then discharge it. It doesn't help any kind of resolution. There's no learning there for either one of you in the relationship. And then the goodwill just goes even more down. Yeah. So as to seeing like, Oh, that's that you get on board with that thinking. And then it gets so intense, and then you let it out. Yeah, but this and the reason you let it out is because the suffering gets to a certain level that you need to let it out. But what I want you to see as the suffering only gets to a certain level, because you've gone down that road of thinking, it's not his fault. Even if he was two hours late, and didn't call you. I'm going to still say he's not responsible for how you feel. I'm not saying that's kind of a thing as thoughtful, but he's still not responsible for how you feel. I can see that. Do you see the difference?I'm not condoning bad behavior. Right. But also making it clear that your, your internal experience comes from inside of you. And that separation gives you so much more peace.

Alicia: 1:16:30

And also the, I guess the piece of it is also just recognizing, okay, well, he was insensitive, and this and that, but like, I don't have to, I don't have to take it further. Right, you can deal with that. When you're not in a sped up state. Like let's say you're going into a sped up state, you can't help yourself. If you at least know like, oh, but this is coming from inside of me, then you'll know to write it out. And then maybe in the next day, like, you know, didn't really feel good when you didn't call me when you're two hours late, you know, wondering, you know, what we could do differently than maybes and everybody has a reason that logic, say, Oh, you know, my phone was dead. And I wanted to get back as quickly as possible. And, you know, so I didn't want to stay, you know, who knows what the logic is going to be. But when you see the logic, like, okay, I could see that makes sense for you. But maybe we could do it this way, next time, something like that. Like, that's just you come together and you figure it out. Whereas the other way, nothing gets figured out. And there's just resentment built up on both sides. And even just on one side, you both feel bad. Yeah, like I get angry that you push me to that point.

Rohini : 1:17:36

Yeah. So he can't push you to that point. Nobody likes being a victim.

Alicia: 1:17:49

No, yeah. I mean, yeah, he can't really push me a point, I can only

Rohini : 1:17:57

You do it to yourself. You do it to yourself innocently. But it's begin to become more clear that you're doing it to yourself now. So you're not going to like you're not going to do it. When you realize you're doing it to yourself. Everybody's that's the learning. Oh, my God, like, why would I do this to myself? So the more you see it, the less you do it, the better you get. And the more stable you feel. Like it's really liberating.

Alicia: 1:18:22

Yeah, I mean, just even just think about like, yesterday had I just been like, we didn't make a plan, we set up the work, whatever that means, like, not get upset over Valentine's Day, because he didn't feel something and then just

Rohini : 1:18:35

He was, he was thinking that it wasn't, wasn't right to do it. You know, his logic was that it wasn't based on where you're at not the right thing to do. And I could have just sat there eating chocolate, I could have just relaxed and then maybe today even express, like, Hey, I mean, my understanding of work ending is around five by 30. And you're not coming late leaving office till seven without communicating like, is something that's bothersome like we could have? Yeah, like, if you're super if you're neutral. You can say that and see, like, you know, would Could you just let me know? Yeah, like, you know, you like, it's not even finding the right words. It's where you're coming from, like, when you're really neutral. You can have those conversations, you've got nothing on it, you're there's no credit, like neutral means there's no critical edge. It's just like, Hey, this is what happened for me. I'm thinking this might be better. Do you think that's a good idea? Like I don't know if you realize that but whatever. But it's that neutrality that allows you to figure out the logistics so easily. So easily. But any lack of neutrality? Off to the races. But the lack of neutrality comes from within, it's not from the other person,

Alicia: 1:19:49

Right. And sort of like even when I am giving those feelings like thoughts in life, just to not maybe communicate with them because I'm just an emotional state.

Rohini : 1:19:59

Yeah, because you can't trust what you're going to say. And you're not seeing things clearly. And you're going to be able to work it out so much better and more easily when you're neutral. And that you, you don't need to see what happens is when we get upset when humans get upset, it hurts. And so we want to feel better. So we want to release the pressure. But unfortunately, the way that we release the pressure makes things worse. So the way that when we understand where experience is coming from, we understand the way to release the pressure is to get out of our head. And as soon as we're out of our head, and our mind is settled, there's no more pressure anymore. And there's also no you know, casualties either. So you get to see that, oh, I get to release the pressure. And that's on your terms. It's not on his terms. You don't have to wait for him to be anything. You get to release the pressure like that. Yeah. And so your life gets easier, nicer, lighter, happier, independent of anything going on with him.

Alicia: 1:21:06

Yeah

Rohini : 1:21:07

Sounds good?

Alicia: 1:21:08

Sounds like a great idea. So you know, just while you're here, your practice is to be yourself. And to notice when you because this sounds a little bit habitual now to notice when you're forgetting that you're not responsible for his feelings, so just kind of be on that learning curve. And then we can check in about that tomorrow to see how it goes. Yeah, yeah, just be one of those things that you have to remind myself,

Rohini : 1:21:32

You just notice you didn't because when you're when you get eyes for it, you'll start to realize, Oh, I'm walking on eggshells. You wake up to it again, like, oh, but that's on me. But yeah, so that's the learning curve. You see how that goes?

Alicia: 1:21:43

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Angus: 1:21:47

Well, I think there may have been one or two choirs of angels moments in there. I certainly feel like you could have said at some point, here are the keys to your shiny new vehicle, madam.

Rohini : 1:22:03

What kind of car is it?

Angus: 1:22:05

I don't know. Definitely a luxury vehicle, potentially a luxury vehicle? Certainly, in terms of what she's been used to thus far, it will feel like a bunch of luxury vehicle.

Rohini : 1:22:15

I was gonna say, does that count as a technical knockout?

Angus: 1:22:19

Oh! I know. I've, I'm mi ing my metaphors terribly. No. I would say that's definite y a technical knock out. For s re.

Rohini : 1:22:28

Don't get me confused. I don't know the difference between a knockout.

Angus: 1:22:31

Knock downs, we don't have to get into that that was a knockout. Yeah. Your boxing arm would be held aloft as champion.

Rohini : 1:22:40

But I was very pleased with how much she heard in this session. And it really felt like it took the pressure off of her, and that she felt more empowered as a result of what we're talking about. And that she could see that she didn't have to wait for Matteo to feel better for her to feel better, and that she didn't have to carry the weight and responsibility of how he feels on her shoulders. And so next week, we'll hear from Mateo. hank you so much for listening o rewilding love. If you njoyed this podcast, please let s know by subscribing on Tunes. And we would love for ou to leave a review there.

Angus: 1:23:27

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini : 1:23:33

If you would like to learn more about our work and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website www.th rewilders.o

Angus: 1:23:41

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.