Awaken to Love

EP7: An Insight About Wellbeing

• Angus & Rohini Ross • Season 1 • Episode 7

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:18:33

Mateo experiences a dramatic shift in perspective. By exploring some of his more irrational thoughts about Alicia, he begins to see how the discord in their relationship is a "monster of his own making." Low moods look for something (or someone) they can hang themselves on. But as soon as we start to blame someone else for our feelings, we disempower ourselves and become the victim to the very thing (or person) we're blaming.

We find out Mateo wants this relationship to work, and he played the divorce card out of fear of getting hurt, not a desire for the relationship to end. Unsigned divorce papers enable him to remain in the relationship, with one foot out the door. Angus points out that not only does that take a great deal of energy, but that also there's no way for them to explore whether to remain in the relationship if Mateo isn't fully in it. 

Mateo wants to know how he can practice this understanding in real-time and Angus explains he needs to have his own insight about what will work best for him. Mateo sees that he needs to show up to the relationship without such a busy mind -- allowing himself to experience Alicia with a fresh outlook. But is Mateo too late? 

This episode explores the following:

  • It’s easier to be all-in in a relationship than to have one foot out the door -- it takes a great deal of energy to live in limbo.
  • It only takes one person to get this understanding for there to be a shift in the relationship.
  • Not taking each other's flare-ups personally leads to more goodwill.
  • When we’re in a low mood it is easy to look outside of ourselves to try and find the cause of that low mood. That is why we tend to blame those who are nearest and dearest to us.
  • Learned conditioning isn’t who we are.
  • Trust your heart, that’s where the gold is.

Show notes
Paint yourself into a corner: to create a predicament or unpleasant situation for oneself whereby there are no or very few favorable solutions or outcomes.

Pavlovian response: refers to the physician, Ivan Pavlov, who conducted experiments that demonstrated the conditioned response, or the theory of classical conditioning. 

Napa Valley: beautiful wine country in California, or a really annoying reference your partner makes.

Podcast music

Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 7 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.

Angus:

Welcome to rewilding love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini :

This is Episode Seven Mateos insight around his bias.

Mateo:

I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.

Alicia:

I don't understand where things went wrong. In any given moment. His vibe just changes. It's like boom like you hate me all of a sudden.

Angus:

Right at a funfair, we go off and down. We are not moving and we love each other. We go into low mood, we hate each other.

Mateo:

See, for the most part, I'm Pirates of the Caribbean when there's only one drop in one rise. Okay, everything else is pretty flat in my life, right? hers. It's corkscrewing. It's, it jumps to track sometimes like it does crazy shit.

Alicia:

I'm not this monster.

Rohini :

We want her to decide what to do about the relationship. When she's on stable ground. I'm not saying that she would need to stay with him.

Mateo:

She just walked in the house and everything was cool and chill. Everything was cool and like borderline psychotic.

Angus:

What if we could somehow find a way to make you poke proof?

Mateo:

Just rather not get poked

Angus:

the emotion that came up yesterday. That was really hard, though. That's who you are. That's your innate natural state. That's how you want to connect with this. Well, that's the sweet spot. The rest is just stuff we make up.

Mateo:

That was good. So deep shit. Yeah.

Angus:

You are listening to Rewilding Love with me. Angus Ross,

Rohini :

and me Rohini Ross

Angus:

Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini :

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded, listen in as we guide a real couple back to their natural state of love.

Angus:

Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini :

I feel badly now that I said that you pulled the short straw with Mateo. Because in this session, he really let go of his defensiveness and opened up and saw some really great things.

Angus:

Yeah, no, I I have I'm so proud of him. I'm so impressed with how he became so open to this whole experience and, and became really quite vulnerable. So yeah, yeah. You. You spoke at a turn

Rohini :

I did.

Angus:

One thing that was occurred to me this morning when I was thinking about you was that because you know, you and it's kind of cool that you bring up the awkward awkwardness issue? Because it's kind of I wonder, and I were just curious about this, I'm not suggesting this is what's going through your mind with deference to separate realities, you know, you might have a completely different feel for what's going on. But there's that sort of I kind of got a sense yesterday that there's a sort of, there's a sort of self free, in even a sense self created limbo that you've created in this relationship in the sense that I know that you talked about that, you know, you have the divorce papers, what was it September?

Mateo:

Yeah.

Angus:

And they those are kind of like being in the background. They're on the back burner in a way. So that, for me was a kind of a bit of a red flag for the relationship just because I like wow, I wonder what it would be like to be the other party who's kind of like having to sort of walk around on eggshells. That would just be my spin on that. Yeah. That's what I would feel like if I felt like Rohini had like, had divorce papers and more just like, Well, you know, we'll keep things as they are, but we'll see how they go. Yeah, I would really not like, that would be really awful for me.

Mateo:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, totally screwed the pitch in that. But at the same time, it's kind of like, like I said, poking the Buddha, right? So the Buddha is going to be super calm and neutral. But after a while you keep poking the guy. He might tell you blunt honesty, and that's what occurred in our relationship is, you know, I kept on getting poked, kept getting poked, and it's just like, you know, I'm here in this in this straight jacket, not feeling well. Right and feeling lonely, and then out of outbursts to get out of the shackles or whatever you want to call it. It was this is how I feel. Yeah, I'm releasing myself. This is how I feel. I'm hoping that you can interpret this information, the way that I hope, which is probably not reasonable to be like, someone tells you like, Oh, I want a divorce and you're like, Oh my god, I'm totally gonna be, you know, this dream person for them. I mean, that was probably what my hope was the best case scenario, but that's not real life. So yeah, I know that place a larger burden on the relationship.

Angus:

Yeah, with a relationship, you're kind of you're all in until you're out in the sense, because that's kind of like, okay, you could bring up the idea of divorce and you could have papers. And that's, that's very much in pretty much concrete terms. But it's kind of like even now, within that situation, you could be all in until you're out. So when I say all in, you could be at least all in with the same level of vulnerability or with a level of vulnerability that wants to sort of like there's, you know, you've actually yourself told me that you weren't, you know, you, it will be amazing if we could figure this out. And you kind of want that as a part of you that wants it. I don't know how much of you wants that. But I get a sense, there is a part of you that wants that. So if you do that, then what have you got to lose them by being all in terms of how you show up and how you present yourself, but in a true and honest and vulnerable way. In terms of you being all in and you show up, and you're totally your honest, vulnerable self without the defenses up, and the defenses are all about, you know, I don't want to get hurt in this scenario, by chick you. Based on I spent a long time yesterday trying to point out this idea that you can't be hurt by only you can hurt yourself, it's only your thinking that's hurting yourself in this situation. And no, that's like a really major thing to get a hold of, because I went through it all the people I know have got into this understanding. They have to get through that that big problem of flipping that around. She can't hurt you. Only you can create your own sub mental suffering. So that's the thing to get flipped around. But if you can show up, and just be yourself without the defenses, because that must be quite exhausting to have to keep those defenses up all the time. I imagine. Yeah. It must be a burden to carry

Mateo:

for both of us.

Angus:

Both of you. Definitely. Right. So what, and you might not stay together, you might get divorced. But what have you got to lose in the sense of like, yeah, I can show up and I'm just going to be my vulnerable self. I'm going to put all my chips on the table. This is how who I am. And this is how I'm showing up. If that's not gonna work, and that's not gonna work where I'm being my authentic, vulnerable self. And yeah, then then maybe then you're not writing to each other.

Rohini :

So you know, when you're listening to podcasts?

Angus:

Yes.

Rohini :

Too bad you're not on video right now. So when you're listening to podcasts, and they say, we'll be back in a moment.

Angus:

I do know that.

Rohini :

You usually play some kind of ad.

Angus:

Yes.

Rohini :

Well, I think we should take a pause from Alicia and Mateo for a moment. Why? Because I think we should talk a little bit about

Angus:

Have I done something wrong?

Rohini :

I think we should talk a little bit about the process of making the podcast,

Angus:

Okay.

Rohini :

Because it may sound like fun and games when people are listening and listening in. But sometimes it's far from that.

Angus:

Yes, sometimes it's very far from that.

Rohini :

And I thought it would be good for listeners to know that. You know, just know more about what our process is.

Angus:

Okay. Are you gonna lead with this example?

Rohini :

Yeah, it's gonna ask you to share about your difficulties with it. Because you you seem to be more challenged than I am.

Angus:

Yeah, sometimes it feels like pulling teeth. I think but part of it is that we do it at the end of the week, generally, or Friday seems to be my worst day to do it. Because I tend to feel a little fried on Fridays. Mondays are better. Because I feel well rested after the Sabbath.

Rohini :

That's not true. On Mondays you say, Oh, I ate too much chocolate over the weekend. Oh, I don't feel good.

Angus:

I have to have some joy in life.

Rohini :

You often say on Monday Oh I ate too much.

Angus:

I do. I do feel like crap on a Monday. Probably doesn't go well on a Monday either. No, I think that I felt sometimes I feel like I just don't know. It's just just it's I don't know why I don't have a bit of a block around it. It's one thing to sort of sit down and have a conversation with someone in a I don't know, you know, in a living room or a bar. Not that I frequent bars per se. But it's another thing to sort of like be facing someone else with a mic stuffed in my mush.

Rohini :

Someone else meaning me?

Angus:

Yes, meaning you and then to have this sort of deeper, meaningful conversation. When you're feeling like you'd rather be doing something else But, but I, you know, I want to have that deeper meaningful conversation. And I guess there's a certain amount of pressure around it too, because I feel like there are times when, when I can be listening to you, and you're seeing something really insightful. Now, without the mic or the recording, I would just be able to appreciate you saying something meaningful and insightful. But sometimes when you say something meaningful and insightful, and you've taken 10 minutes to do it, I'm like, Oh, god, she's saying something really meaningful, insightful, I need to have a really good response. And then when I start to have those sorts, obviously, I'm not listening to what you're saying. So I might have missed five minutes of the meaningful and insightful because I've had to listen to five minutes of like, Wow, that's really cool. And then there's another five minutes Oh, shit, what am I saying now? And if I say the wrong thing, it's like, oh, no, that's all gonna go up in smoke, and we're gonna have to go back to square one. But I guess we do have the luxury of maybe, you know, maybe doing some creative editing, which, maybe we're gonna have to explore more. So how to feel under so much pressure?

Rohini :

I don't think I've ever talked for 10 minutes straight.

Angus:

I think you'd be surprised.

Rohini :

Certainly not saying something ...

Angus:

you know, you're having such a good time. But time just you know, flies by?

Rohini :

Or maybe it just feels like that long in your mind.

Angus:

Maybe. But yeah, no, I think that's kind of really what I'm up against is I fell under I don't know, I put myself under all this pressure to sort of show up and sound half decent.

Rohini :

Well, I also think that we are being required to dig deeper in terms of our own understanding during this podcast in terms of our relationship.

Angus:

Yeah, no, it's kind of like this sort of parallel sort of lesson going on.

Rohini :

You're gonna serve me with divorce papers.

Angus:

No, I guess because I'm all in, I better not. And that's the other thing I have to worry about talking to love because then I might, you know, go an octave too loud and then upset the whole recording.

Rohini :

We're upset our sound engineer.

Angus:

Yeah, our sound engineer wouldn't like that. So all these things to be mindful of. I felt like constrained I felt like I'm in this little. This little room with with with with rubber walls, not rubber was what are they for? What is it exactly? I

Rohini :

I don't know, some kind of sound protection sound? I don't know. What is it sound made

Angus:

Of foam, I guess it is foam scrape for encased contained, constrained. So it's not the ideal setup to be Angus

Rohini :

Having this and sit still.

Angus:

Exactly, I would just sit still and stare at my wife? Like, I'm paying attention. Too much pressure.

Rohini :

So why are you doing it?

Angus:

Um, well, I like doing it. I like I like it. When it works. I'm listening back to it. Like the idea of a podcast. I know. It's just it's it's an obviously ultimately, it's hopefully providing a service, you know, people are going to be able to derive some value, this experience that we've had. And hopefully, you know, we're going to be able to garnish it with some valuable teaching points. So yeah, on that level, I think it's a it's a worthwhile thing to do. I don't know it's I have struggled with the doing. But I've enjoyed the the completion completion process.

Rohini :

Well, I just wanted people to know a little bit about the behind the scenes that it's not all as, what would Alicia say, rainbows and unicorns?

Angus:

Yes. It's not all fun and games,

Rohini :

I would say. And it does feel like a worthy cause. So we do hope that it's enjoyable for people.

Angus:

Yeah, it is. It does feel like a worthy cause and a good service to humanity. And that that will remain my compass point.

Rohini :

So shall we resume now?

Angus:

Yes.

Rohini :

Well, back to the section that we just listened to. I don't know if Matteo realizes it but it really seems as if he's painted himself into this corner. by threatening to serve the divorce papers to Alicia,

Angus:

You're looking at me very critically, how do you paint yourself into a corner?

Rohini :

It's another saying

Angus:

Paint yourself into a corner.

Rohini :

I think it doesnt't say that.....

Angus:

Coffee is a surprising visual for me to behold.

Rohini :

It's a tricky situation where you make a mistake and paint yourself into a corner because you can't get out.

Angus:

Well where does that come from? paint yourself into a corner.

Rohini :

I don't know. I've heard it.

Angus:

I just seems like a it just seems an unlikely thing for someone to do.

Rohini :

It's not a good thing to do.

Angus:

they may be more? I don't know, it just kind of conjures up an unusual image but I'll go with that.

Rohini :

Oh, look it up, but I'm sure it's...

Angus:

some sort of thing that decorators live in fear of?

Rohini :

I think so.

Angus:

Okay.

Rohini :

Do you know what I mean, though?

Angus:

Yes, he painted himself into a corner.

Rohini :

And he's made this, you know, very strong threat. And it's not helping rapport in the relationship. It's not improving the relationship. And yet it's on the table. So what else is he gonna do?

Angus:

Yeah, he's painted himself into a corner.

Rohini :

See, it's a good expression.

Angus:

It is, maybe. Yeah, I mean, it's not such as far from ideal, let's say. Alicia must certainly feel like she's walking on eggshells, walking around on eggshells. But there was a little light at the end of the tunnel, I guess that my line of I wouldn't say a line of question, while kind of questioning the line of inquiry, as it were, was to try and sort of cajole him into putting himself in her shoes, which I think he got to that point. And I did notice quite a good degree of compassion cup in the cadence of his voice. So I thought that was quite heartening.

Rohini :

Yeah, he definitely seemed to have some insight. And the other piece that I thought was really important that you were emphasizing that, I think, is a really great point, not just for this couple, but for couples in general, is the recognition that it's actually easier to be all in in a relationship,than it is to be one foot out the door.

Angus:

Yeah, I mean, I guess, if I, if I have to reflect on that,

Rohini :

Yeah, and I can speak to that firsthand, in terms of I would say that it must take an enormous amount of bandwidth to keep one foot out the door. Because you've got to sort of maintain this stance, you know, for him, it's a case of like, you know, I'm gonna wait around for Alicia to change, and then we'll be all good. And she's got to tiptoe around, you know, making sure that she doesn't make the wrong move. But I imagine, you know, for couples thinking in those terms is kind of like, yeah, they can not be able to be present in the relationship, because they're going to be thinking about how to, you know, make this all work or how this isn't working? And how, you know, what is my escape plan? If it doesn't, and that must take up a, as I said, that must take up an enormous amount of bandwidth. So how do you be present? And how do you, you know, be vulnerable? How do you really be able to look for the good in the relationship when you're, you know, when you're using all your creativity bsolutely, you know, you know, n a sense, by trying to, you now, figure out your exit plan. our relationship. There were many years when we were...

Angus:

Really?

Rohini :

I think you knew about this already. But where I was really working way harder than I realized I needed to because by my natural inclination, and desire was to be all in and to have a relationship that I can be open and vulnerable and intimate with. But because of my own fear of intimacy, and my own feelings of fragility, that I wouldn't be able to handle what might come up in our relationship by sort of keeping that door open or one foot out the door. It took a lot of effort, and wasn't going with the natural impulse of what I really wanted to do.

Angus:

Right. So if you want to painting yourself into a corner in that situation, what will you be in? If you are a decorator, trying to figure out an escape plan what would you be doing? digging a hole in the floor?looking out some drywall?

Rohini :

I would have been climbing out the window on the fifth floor. And then realizing Oh, I don't want to go down there.

Angus:

Maybe you could parasail or something?

Rohini :

Well, no, I want it to be all in.

Angus:

Okay, thank you.

Rohini :

Well, and the next section that we're going to listen to. I really, really love what you did with Mateo in terms of opening up his eyes to bias that he wasn't even aware of.

Angus:

Yeah, let's see how that unfolds. You're kind of a little bit hot.

Rohini :

Are talking about my looks?

Angus:

All your looks and also your volume. At the moment, it seems like you're kind of like you've got your defenses up and she's wanting to like you know, get in there and figure out what's going on but if you if you're not present for her in that way And it goes both ways. You know, we kind of like put up barriers, we have our own inimitable ways of putting those barriers up. I mean, it sounds like you're more inclined to sort of shut down and not want to like, interact. She wants to interact. She wants to find out what's going on.

Mateo:

Or really offensive?

Angus:

Yes.

Mateo:

Like offensive not defensive.

Angus:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you've basically, I don't think you've got anything to lose just by like, you know, saying what's on your mind, but just having, having that sort of idea in your head that Yeah, I it's better if I deliver this information neutrally, rather than it's kind of like, I'm just throwing a bomb here. And am I gonna walk away?

Mateo:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a thing that I have to learn, though, too, is like, what is the difference between what I perceive as a neutral way? And then also, what's the difference between, hey, I'm being poked? How much more neutral can I be? Rather than just giving this person the bomb that they're asking for?

Angus:

Yeah, what if we could somehow find a way to make you poke proof?

Mateo:

That would be sweet.

Angus:

Like she could be she could have a moments of crazy. Which we all have our moments of crazy. Maybe she's maybe how crazies a little bit more developed than us? I don't know. That's not for me to say. But what if we could figure out a way where you didn't have to take any of that personally, you can be poke resistant, but also have there's a sense of freedom in your head going on in your head at the same time.

Mateo:

I just rather not get poked. That's the thing.

Angus:

I know. But is because you're taking it personally. And I know and I understand. I can see you know what where you're coming from is like, you don't want that to be your home environment. But it's basically it's all of this is going on in your own head. It's all stuff that you're you're creating your own suffering.

Mateo:

It's relentless, relentless. What happened this morning? It was, I'm drinking coffee on the balcony, and she's on her phone looking at Instagram. Oh my god. I love Napa. Wouldn't you like to go to Napa? That was number one this morning. Okay.

Angus:

Okay.

Mateo:

That's not like that happened last week or four days ago? No, that was this morning.

Angus:

Okay, well, that's an innocent comment.

Mateo:

Sure. But after receiving that, quote, unquote, innocent comment a million times and knowing that many of the times that question, may be different location different scenario, is being asked there is a background question which is going on.

Angus:

But is that all that she said that she did? She then did it then go into the usual trajectory that you just outlined about?

Mateo:

So today? It was. I just said, Yeah, I'd love to go to Napa again.

Angus:

Okay.

Mateo:

Right. In the conversation deceased. Okay. So yeah, that was, there was a unicorn this morning. I want everything to roll smoothly. And I want to know that when I'm having these conversations with my partner, there's no underlying, real deep question that they're trying to get answers to, which is a lot of the time, right. And it's, it occurs many times where it's like, what do you think about this? Or where do you want to go do this, right? And it's one of the scenarios that I'm saying, and like I said, I put up walls and just like, no

Angus:

So for this morning, see made, what could be interpreted. You know, if we had a, if we were a fly on the wall, we're not privy to all the other BS in the past. She makes this innocent remark. And then you immediately go into sort of almost like that pavlovian response of like, yes. This is the narrative that I'm familiar with. And I have my narrative that lines up with that. And so what we know what our hope for this weekend with is for you to show up with an open mind. So in a sense, that is a very narrow focus. You're, we're really like asking you to like this to widen the shot and look at the whole picture. And have an open heart. So it almost reminds me of a there's a there's a commercial that I saw, I was reminded of the other day, years ago in English, the psyche soul, is in black and white. It was a really cool commercial. And it was for a newspaper. And there there are three different shots and it's talking about perspective. So the first shop is like a real is a close up of this, this skinhead running up again, running towards this guy with a briefcase, and he comes up with a guy who recently like I sort of base it like this. And then the next shot is that a guy's walking down the end of the street. It's a little bit wider. And he sees a skinhead running towards this guy with the guy puts up his briefcase and this guy starts running towards it because you think obviously the guy is gonna get mugged or something. And then the white shark is like scaffolding falling down and is about to crash this guy and the skinhead actually saved this guy's life. So it's kind of like there is a parallel for me because we have, we have a narrow focus that you have, obviously a formidable intellect, there's no doubt in my mind, you have a very, very powerful intellect. But the intellect is all about figuring things out, creating stories, like using all the data that we have stored away here as reference points for how things are going to unfold. So this morning, that's what was going on, you're in your intellect, you figured out the story, you know, this pattern of behavior, it all makes sense. But that is a narrow perspective as far as your relationship is concerned- Your relationship has got so much potential just because you have the full scope and the power of the intelligence behind life at your service at any given moment. To give you a fresh new thought, a fresh new perspective.

Mateo:

Yeah, I understand. And I do see that by approaching every situation with the same story in my head doesn't allow for my for growth in our relationship and growth within myself or herself.

Angus:

You in with your formidable intellect have pigeonholed in a way that, Okay, I understand this animal now. That's probably not the right term. I understand no human now. This is who she is. I've completely figured her out. And there's no there's really no wiggle room wiggle room, I found it away. She can change and as she changes will be good. But it's kind of like, that's who she is at the moment. And I'm not really seeing any different but this morning, that could have just been you know, I I could say make random nuts. But in the moment, there's kind of like, Yeah, I like to go to Napa and drink wine. Yeah, that'd be how I wake up today. But you made it something so much more.

Mateo:

Yeah, I have. But I've also been Pavlov's dog conditioned to think that way. Yes. Right. So it's not just by my own accord, I came up with this, my head.

Angus:

The thing is that's not who you are. You're not Pavlov's dog, you're not that hard drive of information. You're so much more than that. Like that. The emotion that came up yesterday, that was really heartfelt. That's who you are. That's your innate natural state as a human being, that's who you are. That's how you want to connect with this world. That's the sweet spot. The rest is just stuff we make up.

Rohini :

I just love where you got to in this section with Matteo. I especially love I don't know if you noticed it. But there was that for him a fairly long pause, after you talked about how he had developed this narrow perspective on his relationship, and that he wasn't seeing the potential because he was so caught up in his condition thinking about it. And then there was this pause. And he finally says that Yeah, I understand. I see, by approaching every situation with the same story in my head, it doesn't allow for my growth in the relationship or the relationship to grow or something like that. I mean, to me, that was him saying something pretty profound.

Angus:

Yeah, that was really quite a beautiful moment. And to be honest, I think I forgotten about that. But yeah, he did seem, it would appear that he did really see something there. And that there was this long pause as the penny dropped. And I was actually, you know, listening to that back, you know, when I was harping on about the intelligence behind life, and that you're so much more than the narrative that you created in your conceptual mind. I was kind of anticipating, you know, I didn't know what to expect. I was just thinking, is that gonna really resonate with him? I don't know if that gave him cause to pause, caused pause that what you would say, but I'm saying it anyway. If that would give him cause to pause. Whatever came out of that created a level of reflection that allowed him to see something differently, you know, which I thought was really refreshing.

Rohini :

Yeah. And what led up to that, I think, you know, from what I hear when I listen to that, like the cognitive dissonance between you and him, because he goes from saying, you know, she's relentless. It's relentless, and he's like, just this morning you won't believe it. It was crazy like and I'm like, Oh my goodness, what happened this morning? She's like, what was it I want to go to Napa do... and you were just kind of been crazy like Is that it?

Angus:

Yeah, I was it but I'm sure I was expecting her to say I something I want to kill my mother in law.

Rohini :

And so I think that example and and you're genuine like, what? that innocent comment?what he talking about? I think it really helped him see like, oh, wait a second here. Because when you really like looking at the transcript or listening to that, it's like, What on earth did she do?

Angus:

Yeah, I mean, I guess that was the point where he suddenly realizes it, you know, I have kind of created this crazy narrative narrative, bless him. And but he has, you know, he's got, you know, he's got a really good mind. He's created this really interesting story in which Alicia has very little room to maneuver outside the constructs and constraints that you know, in his mind, that's, that's her identity now.

Rohini :

Well, in a sense, it doesn't really matter what she does, because you can see her through that lens.

Angus:

Yeah. Yeah. Although, um, yeah, at some point, there was a little glitch in the matrix, and he's seen something new.

Rohini :

I would say there's a pretty big glitch. Yeah,

Angus:

let's hope so.

Rohini :

And then, you know, leading into this next section, it seems like with him, being able to sort of let go of that narrative about how annoying she is how, how much she bothers him and keeps poking him like is that sort of slipped away. He actually in this next section, I think gets to kind of a deeper concern that's going on for him.

Angus:

Awesome. Let's see what's cookin.

Mateo:

There are also other scenarios, though, in our relationship where my heart has been very open, it's very open. And just one thing is, I worked as a valet driver in Laguna Beach, and I was always approached by a lot of homeless people with mental illnesses, I did a lot of volunteer work at the hospitals in high school, and before then, and I have a soft spot for all of that...

Angus:

That's amazing

Mateo:

And I'm very, I get emotional, like, I all cry about stuff like that. And I remember as a kid, we go to Mexico, and I'd be eating with the family and seeing a, you know, a kid begging, and I would just break down in tears, and I couldn't eat, and I would just, I pretend to tell my parents like, Oh, I just, you know, I don't feel well. But in my eart, what really was is the pain of seeing this person suffering while I have, quote, unquote, everything at my fingertips, and I can't do anything for this person, right, other than, you know, feed them today, I can't help them further, further, just in that present moment. So going back to my experience, you know, I dealt with a lot of homeless folks with mental illnesses. And I really developed this soft spot, knowing that, you know, a lot of these people, it's not their own choices that led them to that I also had a friend in college who kind of, you know, came down with schizophrenia. So I knew that it was possible that people didn't, their choices didn't lead them to homelessness. So I'm being very open. And the things that she had to say, which is what I brought yesterday, the ignorance, t e blatant ignorance really upse s me. And it gets me disconnect d from the ignorance and t e person who is spewing t e ignorance. So there was tim s where she's just like, I m afraid of all homeless peopl, they're all by choice, they' e all criminals. And I'm the e thinking, I'm like, Wow, I' e I've been touched so many tim s by someone's story, like, h w could you just be so narr w minded and, and shut off li e that? Like, it's not someone s not everyone's choice? Yea, there's some people out he e that made this choice to li e this life. But the ones th t I've come across, you kno, didn't and they struggle eve y single day with, you know, th, the story in their mind, righ. And I mean, that sort of thi g. doesn't allow me to be ope. I'm just expressing a dif erent point of view, I have a s ft spot, an open heart. And wha I receive is very hard and col. And it's with some reg rds, calculated, and the, it' been cemented in their mind tha if you're homeless, you're a p ece of shit, right? If you re taking a knee, you've got not ing behind you that you're, you know, representing all you re trying to do is por raying negativity. If you thi k this way about how gov rnment is supposed to ope ate and protect its people, wel, you're just an idiot. And you re not thinking like, so I'm ver open minded, I can und rstand but when there's con rete, very strong words, use against, you know, less for unate or people that don't hav the ability to have a voice or hose that are expressing a voi e to you. Like expressing voice to, you know, shed light n in justices and, and you can t even see that other opini n. That's where the ignorance k nd of is a very big turnoff for me. There has been so many tim s where I actually share my de p feelings and bring me to tears because of you know, like I ment oned with the the poverty, ri ht. And that wasn't the respons that I got wasn't even remote y close to what I was. I was xpecting or, or wanting? I on't know.

Angus:

So I listened back to that, that particular section. And you know, whilst I would agree with I guess what would be considered as material is fairly liberal stance, I'm kind of curious about how Mateo is getting really hot under the collar, about Alicia's judgment and being very narrow, narrow minded, in a sense, we can also say that Mateo is being pretty judgmental and pretty narrow minded about how Alicia has shown up in this relationship.

Rohini :

It's quite the juxtaposition because it's beautiful to hear how big his heart is, and how much he cares, and how much compassion he has. But then that's juxtaposed to how cold hearted he is, toward her, which is really curious, just like you're saying, and it's a blind spot for him, because he's judging her for being cold hearted, yet, his behavior and his actions toward her are very much unloving and uncaring. You know, again, not probably meaning to be, but that's how he's showing up. And then in this next section that we're going to listen to, you really point him again to the value being all in and how if anything's going to change, that needs to be a shift inside of him in order to really support they're being trained in the relationship. And I think that there's a connection between his judgment and his not being all in in the sense that it's a coping mechanism to prevent him from being at risk for getting hurt. It's a way that he can be in the relationship but not be vulnerable in the relationship and not be at risk.

Angus:

Oh, the plot thickens. Let's have a listen. The situation at the moment, it's almost like the analogy I can think of is like, you're in a spacecraft, the relationships of spacecraft, you've gone into the decompression chamber to wait to get into the evacuation shuffle, and you're in the decompression chamber, and she's in the spacecraft. And it's kind of like, that is the limbo land. And I guess for me in terms of where I was going this morning, what have you got to lose? I mean, at this point, if you really, if there is a part of you wants to remain in this relationship, then you kind of like for my money, I'm just gonna, you got to put all your chips on the table, you've got to show up and be your true open heart itself, and see how she responds to that. Based on, hopefully, what we're doing this weekend. It's like, if you continue in this vein of being in the in the decompression chamber, it's gonna be your kind of damn, then if you do down, but you know, it's like, you're kind of going to be stuck. I don't really see it going anywhere. If you can't get out of that decompression chamber. Maybe the purpose this weekend, is for us to help you facilitate an amicable divorce. I don't know. But if you as you say, feel like there's hope, because it's like, like you said yesterday, you're hopeful guy, you can't really continue in this vein, you got to I gotta be yourself, you've got to have that open heart that is kind of like, that's how we want to live and operate in this world. Doesn't it feel good to be in that space, when you're helping out a homeless person, despite what how she's coming? You know, how she's coming up against you in that situation? That feeling that you have when you help a homeless person that's so expensive and incredible. And that's kind of like where we want to be. And most of the time in our relationship, it's impossible to be in that situation most of the time, but you've got to least give that a shot.

Mateo:

Yeah.And it's not that Yeah...

Angus:

In a moment you've just kind of created a force field around your heart.

Mateo:

You're right, you're right. Absolutely.

Angus:

I think it would be really valuable to if, as you say, you want to approach this weekend with a totally open mind. It will be good to least dip your toe in the water on that front. Because otherwise, like you're just staying in that decompression chamber. You're not really, you're in limbo land, you're not going anywhere. Well, there, isn't it an american saying, which I think is too crude to deliver on the podcast airwaves. But it would in English terms, go something like this, evacuate your bowels or cut off the WC.

Rohini :

And what do you mean by that?

Angus:

It means this like this is now the time to to really make a decision one way or the other. And let's move on. And I think that, you know, why are we here, if not to make some kind of meaningful decision?

Rohini :

Yeah, I think it was great that you brought up the option like are we here to help you guys have an amicable divorce? Like let's, let's land on one side or the other? Rather than being in the... Did you call it the evacuation chamber? Not the WC evacuation chamber.

Angus:

I didn't mean that at all. Did I say no, I said the decompression. But we might have to rename our downstairs toilet the evacuation chamber moving forward.

Rohini :

Well, anyway, close enough as far as I'm concerned. But this is a really important point in terms of what's going on in the relationship that this ambivalence is a reflection of state of mind. And it's actually much easier to have the clarity to go either way. And oftentimes, it's it's really difficult to make a decision because there's a feeling of such high stakes. And I can understand when it comes to a marriage, it does feel like it's high stakes. It's a big decision. But at some point, what your point, what you're pointing to here is that at some point, it's too painful to stay in a limbo land and not make a decision.

Angus:

Yeah, I mean, it is a big decision. And I don't think that really gives anybody the right to sort of play around with it, you know, I think that he is to an extent playing around with it. And it's, you know, it's causing a lot of suffering for him and Alicia.

Rohini :

Yeah. And it also, to me, this state of limbo, is indicative of a way to stay in the relationship without being intimate in the relationship. And, you know, we do have the privilege of some hindsight here. So I'm not going to give too much away. But based on what we know, I can see more now about why this would on one level be even though it doesn't feel good to Mateo, I can see where there's a level of comfort where he still has Alicia in his life, but he's not having to show up in an intimate, vulnerable way.

Angus:

Yeah, I mean, that would definitely be the impression one would get, it's kind of like he's created a level of safety. And limbo is a very good word to use it, it's kind of really, either one way or the other. But he doesn't, you know, he feels like he's kind of King himself insulated from Hall. But he's kind of suffering in silence.

Rohini :

Yeah. So we next get to hear another one of your metaphors.

Angus:

We do? wonder what that is...

Mateo:

I'm guilty, I'm guilty of building this up, you know, all the negative things that I, I acknowledged in our relationship, all the negative stuff that has gone on and that I've stored in my mind, it has brought an even stronger narrative into my mind where I dislike a lot of things about her. You know, it literally goes down to the way she drinks, water, the sound that it makes the way that she chews, the way she heard, like, breath smells, like anything annoys the shit out of me now. And I know that that was built from there. And I know it's not right, right. Like, you know, if I'm going to make this work, I can't allow these things to, you know, really, but like, it makes me so angry. You know, I'm like, I'm sitting on the couch and I hear eating a chip and it just, it drives me insane. And I think to myself, and I'm like, Okay, are you being rational Mateo? Like, what if it was someone else on the couch eating a chip? Are you gonna react the same way? Yeah. And it's come down to it's like, No, you wouldn't because hopefully that other person can put you through all the shit is person that's currently eating a chip, right. put you through and I worked on that.

Angus:

if your state of mind is already negative, your intellect is going to look, it's going to go looking for all the filing systems to try and match up. systems that something that has a same quality, if you like, same negative quality, so bad breath, chewing her nails, the way she interrupts or whatever she does the numerous things that you can, you can create a laundry list of problems for, it's kind of like what it's like, like fuel looking for the most inflammable material to grab ahold of. And any one of them can flare up at any moment. But that's how those pathways get developed and become strong. All right. Another analogy for me is like, did I talk about the time towel that I mentioned that yesterday, this came out from a couple of weeks ago, it's almost like I saw a comment what I was looking at, I was looking at someone's blog, and they had some pictures of what you I guess they had images of neural pathways. And it looked like all these tunnels to me, like, you know, we develop these neural pathways. And then I created these neural pathways as being like the stories that we like, you know, create for ourselves, you know, some of them are happy stories, some of them are sad, some of them are actually terrible. But we create these stories, and we create these pathways. And then to me, they just look like time tunnels tunnels, surely say, and then I then I had this memory or recollection of this show that I used to watch. When I was a kid called the time tunnel. I don't know if they've remade it. This is like back in the 60s, there was this top secret was so hokey, and it would be so crazy to go and look at it now, because it's probably so badly produced. It was this top secret government project. And I think if memory serves me right, the government, we're gonna pull the funding. And so the scientists run the gun to see if it works or not. So they actually ended up trying to sort of like, be a bit reckless about, you know, their pursuit of, of developing this technology. Anyway, so they would walk into the time funnel, and they get sucked into a, in a point, usually in the past, but it could be the future. And it's kind of like, yeah, that's how our mind works. When those neural pathways, there are these really, you know, some are really strong, powerful and compelling, that we have these stories that we've created over the years, and that something happens in our brain is actively looking for some sort of reference point to line up with it. And then we get sucked into the thought process sucked into the time title. And usually with us, as human beings, we get sucked into the past. And our into, it's like, oh, yes, that lines up. We can we can file that away under like, you know, being abused as a child, or her picking her nose or whatever it is. And then it is formed is just really strong narratives that are just so hard. They're like a gravitational force, pulling us into them. Yeah. But it's all made up. It's just something that we hadn't experienced in the moment where we just like created a narrative and a lot of the time, it's minute, isn't it? There is a very much an illusionary quality to it, but a lot of it is very misguided.

Mateo:

Yeah, absolutely.

Angus:

Based on our mood. Yeah. If we're making if we start mistrusting our thought process when we're in a low mode, we're kind of we're definitely going in the right direction.

Mateo:

So you're absolutely right, and she notices it, too. We'll be having a fun moment on the couch, just laughing and then all of a sudden, she sees my, my demeanor change, and it's because I'm sucked into the hey, yeah, we're having fun, but fuck, I remember that one time, we were having fun and all of a sudden blew up and it was shitty, right? So now I'm gonna shut down and yeah, for sure. That happens. But how do I remove the How do I remove the association of you know, something as simple as her breath or the way that she drinks water though he you know, to not really pull me back into a dark place.

Angus:

First thing I do...

Mateo:

Right? Because what happened? I'm sure is we were in a really pissed off mood, I was bummed out and I heard her drinking water and that was just one more thing that annoyed me in that moment. So now anytime that she drinks water I associate that feeling in that moment with the sound of her gulping, right. So how do I disassociate her gulping being with that, with that, that scenario or that memory

Angus:

Once we get a hold of this understanding, we become better equipped in the moment and I'm not saying that I you know, I'm human. I have moments where I just like, you know, I have my blind spots completely goes over my head. This understanding. We just get better equipped just to see that yes, I'm not going to get on board that train because I just know It just leads gonna lead me to wrack and ruin always gonna lead me towards suffering. It's like that point I made yesterday about the vertigo, the fear of heights. It's like once I kind of had that experience and realize that I don't have to jump on that train. I don't have to go into that time tunnel, then it's kind of like almost like diffuses the situation? Well, it certainly did for me. But then then when I had this experience, where I was going into my old narrative about how she's a pain in the ass, and why did I ever marry her? I thought, Oh, yeah, I can do the same thing here. And I did. And within minutes, I was like, happily walking the dog along the trail. And let go of that all the all the story that that has that physiology with it

Mateo:

And you just walked in the house, and everything was cool and chill?

Angus:

Everything's cool and chill.

Mateo:

Isn't that borderline psychotic? Right? I mean, come on. It's crazy.

Angus:

It is crazy. Yeah, it's crazy based on on the narrative that you're running.

Mateo:

And it's even crazier if the other person didn't have this come to Jesus moment too and was like, Oh, yeah, I can forget about this. And then you just kind of...

Angus:

That' s where we are now. It's like, we're not taking our flare ups personally. We're getting much better at not taking those moments personally. It's just, I just taking my thinking, I'm feeling my thinking in the moment. I like how... she did, I can't even what she did is something that pissed me off my thinking, my time tunnel thinking got activated, and I got really upset. And then I just remember, yeah, it's just stuff I've made up at some point in my life. That, you know, that is that if I really engage with I'm going to get those. It's just it's going down a rabbit hole, it's just going to is never ending just gets deeper and deeper. And the physiology, the low mood that comes with that just gets more and more amplified.

Rohini :

Well, it seems like Alicia has become a magnet for Mateo's low moods. But I do really appreciate that he recognizes it's a little crazy for him to be so angry about the sound of her eating a chip or drinking water. So there's definitely some insight there. But I love the comment that you often will say Angus about how low moods go looking for something to hang themselves on.

Angus:

Yeah, it's kind of like low moods. They've kind of behaved like fire looking for oxygen. They're looking for some inflammable material or what they believe is the most inflammable material. And in Mateo's mind, Alicia is that inflammable material, he's convinced of that now.

Rohini :

So for all of us, we can recognize that when, you know, I think if we look at our own experience of a low mood, when we're in a low mood, we will look outside of ourselves to try and find the cause of that low mood, it we don't often look inside and realize that it's coming from within.

Angus:

Yeah, and that's that's the big pivot, isn't it? And this understanding is, you know, our old way of being was to Yeah, as you say, look for something else to hang it on something else, or some, someone else to hang it on. And the intellect really just goes looking for a fall guy. I mean, that's what the intellect does. It's trying to figure out what the hell's going on here. I need a reason to be feeling this way. Oh, lo and behold, it's my nearest and dearest.

Rohini :

And the the thing with looking outside of ourselves, when the intellect does that, and it finds something to hang it on, it doesn't help us on any level, because it makes us a victim to whatever that situation is. So Mateo, in that scenario is a victim to Alicia eating a chip. He's a victim to to her drinking her water. It's really disempowering,

Angus:

Or the audacious suggestion of going to Napa.

Rohini :

But when we realize that that's what's going on, then we get better at not trying to hang out low mood on something, and realize that we just simply can't trust our low mood thinking when it's happening, that whatever those thoughts are running through our mind, and he is recognizing that for himself, which I think is huge. He's recognizing that for him to be enraged by the sound of her eating like that doesn't make sense. So he's not trusting his thinking. But there's a whole bunch of other low mood thinking that's going on that he is trusting that hasn't quite reached that threshold of him realizing Oh, I shouldn't be trusting that either.

Angus:

Yeah, yeah. You know, obviously, ideally, becomes an indicator of our state of mind, and in this case, it's obviously gone south.

Rohini :

So for everyone as a general guideline, our feelings let us know when we can trust our thinking when we can and when we're feeling negative. When we're feeling badly. It means that our thinking is distorted and we be better off not trusting what it's telling us.

Angus:

Yeah, so. So when my wife is munching a little too loudly, on the on the corn chips, it's an I want to go and get out my Smith and Wesson at my suggestion that my mood has gone south in my state of mind is not in a in a place where I get to make the most rational decisions.

Rohini :

Well, for you, it wouldn't be me munching on corn chips, it would be me munching on my cuticles

Angus:

Yes, that would be me in that scenario.

Rohini :

In this next section, Mateo is really seeming to grasp what you're saying. But he's in that space of Well, how do I not take it? So personally, how do I not get upset? How do I get into this more balanced place? And, you know, as you and I both know, whenever those how questions are present for our clients, it means they haven't seen something clearly enough, yet. We can't give them the answer to the how question they need to see it for themselves.

Angus:

Yeah, it's kind of funny, isn't it? Because, you know, everybody's gonna ask that question. Everybody wants to magic bullet. Everyone's everybody wants to how to in the process and the technique? And I guess they get so it gets so frustrated asking that question. Eventually, they have to kind of figure it out for themselves. So we just have to sit there and twiddle our thumbs and wait for them to wait for the penny to drop.

Rohini :

Like he really saw something here.

Mateo:

I do understand I'm just trying to play it in my head how I would handle a situation and get over it. Because I do want to get over it. I don't want to smell someone's breath. And yes, overcome with this feeling of hatred. Yeah, right. That's not comfortable for me.

Angus:

You have to somehow listen, beyond the intellect. It sounds kind of crazy. But I guess for me, the best way that I can articulate it is kind of like you kind of like approach it from here. That's the sort of in a sort of open hearted way. Does that make sense to you at all? Does that does that land in any way?

Mateo:

It does, and just I'm listening to you, but I'm also processing. No, I'm also I'm just tripping on Okay, I understand what you're saying. But how do I activate that within me? Because like I said, I really want this to work. How do I activate that?

Angus:

And I don't think you, you. I don't think we have control of that. It's not like some switch that we can flip. It's kind of like, there's a feeling that comes with just dropping into that space.

Mateo:

Have you ever seen? I'm sorry I've ever seen. What's that movie called? I don't know, where the guy's trying to learn how to surf. Right. And they're on the beach. And it's Paul Rudd. And he's trying to teach this guy how to surf . He's like, pop up. Now you're doing too much. And then he's, he's like, do it again, pop up . You're doing too little. He's like, you know what? Let's just go try it. Right? Wait, well, how I need some sort of guidance on? Do I stand up really fast? Do I stand up slow? Not just like, you know? Yeah, yeah, let's just let's just go surfing.

Angus:

With this understanding is like, you've got to have your own insight, you've got to see it for yourself, you've got to see how to hit that ball. You see how to get up on that surfboard, you have to have your own understanding around, there's nothing really I can do, I can just, you know, do my best to point you in the right direction.

Mateo:

Don't approach a situation with a running mind.

Angus:

Exactly, bingo. In terms of how you're showing up in the world, that your state of mind is really important to have an understanding around. So if you're in a low state of mine, life is actually not working very well. But if you're in a more upbeat state of mind, things look better, and you're actually more open to insight. And you have you don't have the narrow minded quality that comes with having having, you know, a busy mind. See, the busy mind is just constantly looking for answers and solutions. But those answers and solutions is all that's all old information. The sweet spot is is the new

Mateo:

And I'm super guilty of this and I'm sure... information.

Angus:

well you're a mathematician...

Mateo:

Yeah. So I'm sure I've pushed her to to be with. It's really crazy, but like, the way that I answer questions probably gets her to think about the way I'm answering a question and she'll dive into that and now she's asking me questions, really with a reference point that she's trying to get, which bothers me even more. So I have a lot to do with this inconsistency in the emotion or relationship for sure. I see it. Right. She asked me a question one day and it could be totally, totally innocent. And I answer it with the side that she's not being innocent with it right. So now every time she's asked me a question, not from an innocent level, because she's like, well, he spun out on that other time. Like, I want to measure where he's at now. Right? So I probably created Yeah, my own monster.

Angus:

Yeah. Well, that's, that's pretty amazing insight observation.

Mateo:

Yeah, I can see that and link it. Like, Oh, god, that's my fault. Okay. See it? So lunchtime, like. That was good? some deep shit! Yeah, I see it. So just be yourself, be in the moment be cool, don't think.

Angus:

Obviously, you know, it's, it's hard to not, we are thinking machines, but more a case of like, looking at the state of our mind, we in a low state of mind or in an up state of mind. And genuinely, if we're in a low state of mind, it's because we kind of like tiring ourselves out, tiring ourselves out up here, trying to figure things out.

Mateo:

So then there would be also helpful to know when you're in a conversation with someone what their state is whether they're high or low, because that should also dictate how conversation should go.

Angus:

Possibly, I think it's more a case of just being able to judge what state you know, we're in When, when, when they're when it doesn't really matter what state of mind are they. And if we if our mind is dipping into a low state, then then that's good enough for us to sort of like maybe not engaged at that point. I feel like you've seen something there's it must be. Do you think this is this might be a good place to start?

Mateo:

Yeah, I mean, I understand. I understand what the the underlying vibe and approach should be, which is open mindedness and not reverting back to prior outcomes.

Angus:

Yeah.

Mateo:

Are you blown away? You're like, holy shit. Yeah, that's, that's good.

Angus:

I kind of blown away by you, you have a big heart. I mean, that feels very evident to me. Just, you know, just as I said, in the way that you initially showed up, you're very open. So no, that's kind of like that's your natural state as your essential nature is to be open. So it's kind of you know, it's it kind of breaks my heart to see you with your defenses up.

Mateo:

It breaks my heart to see her with her defenses. Okay. She's also lives for her heart. That's, that's the shitty part, is that I've also cultivated that, walking on eggshells and closed off. And asking me dumb, ask questions. That's all something that I cultivated. And they see that those walls were built up and fortified during those moments, because it was a lot easier to do it then because we were in low moods, right. So we built these walls during a low mood period. And they really got fortified those channels that you're talking about. So now even when everything's supposed to be cool, we're still reverting back and getting sucked into that, that path or that tunnel, that strong, you know, channel. So I do see that. I just hope that I mean, I, I think acknowledging it definitely helps everything. And just really hope that I can take this mental process and remind myself of, Hey, man, like you're in a low mood right now. Probably not good to be the, you know, talking about this specific thing, right? Yeah. Because you're going to create a really strong channel in a bad time, and it's not going to help you in the future. Which makes sense.

Rohini :

This is one of my favorite segments of this whole podcast so far, because it's just so exciting, heartwarming, thrilling, to witness someone having an insight real time. And for Matteo to go from not knowing asking how to all of a sudden, like, Oh, this is not about the intellect. This is about me. Not thinking this is about experiential learning. And then from there to see his thinking more clearly and to recognize, like, oh, all of this bias that I've had running against Alicia. That's my thinking, like, I've been the one that's reacting from that place. And, of course, that's had an impact on the report in our relationship and an impact on her. Like, that's what's going on and his level of responsibility. And, you know, I just, I just loved it.

Angus:

Yeah, no, it was, it's really fun to listen back to that. And I and I can remember actually, I feel like when he turns to me at some point, because he realized that, you know, that I've seen something. That's, I think what I started to see in that moment was, I could see the compassion that he was having for Alicia. Finally, and that was a really beautiful moment. And I love that surfboard analogy, you know, as a demonstration of, you know, in his mind about how, you know, he has to let the thinking go, and he just has to, you know, it is, as you say, it is an experiential learning. And he'll figure that out in the moment moving forward.

Rohini :

And that's the rewilding in action, that's letting go of all of that learned conditioning, and coming back to what is natural and true to him.

Angus:

Yeah, absolutely. And that the compassion is his essential nature. And that's, you know, it's such a beautiful thing to see.

Rohini :

And that's what happens to all of us. And that's why this journey is so beautiful, to witness with people, and to be mentors and guides along the way, because it's really about them letting go of learned conditioning, that isn't who they are. And they can't let go of it when it's invisible to them. But as soon as they understand that it's there, and they see it, then immediately, it falls away.

Angus:

Yeah, and then you see the all misterous refreshing.

Rohini :

In the next section, Mateo starts to put the dots together, in terms of the importance of having an open mind and how that's going to impact really all areas of his life.

Angus:

Yeah, and I guess, also, we go over some of the more practical things that he can do to slow down.

Mateo:

The only time that I really unwind it is either when I'm cycling, or when I'm surfing, like I'm really thinking about when do I just release in into like bucket, right, like at work, I'm, I'm working, I am definitely calm, but I'm working. And when I'm home or playing golf for, like hanging out with a friend, we're talking about work or talking about career oriented goals and right, so that's not true. Hanging out and just like being one with yourself, and...

Angus:

The cycling and the surfing.

Mateo:

Yeah. And then when I'm at home, you know, unwinding, you know, smoking a joint and sitting on the couch and watching TV isn't? isn't the kind of feeling ...

Angus:

That's kind of checking out.

Mateo:

Yeah, so the surfing and the cycling is definitely huge. But the problem is, is I haven't done either in a long time. Like I used to surf all the time with my friends, but no one was in the area, and I'm petrified of shark so I don't go in the water by myself, because I'm not stupid, right? It's better to bring people with you to the water than go alone increases your chance of survival. That's my mentality. And the cycling, I just haven't done it. I moved away from where it was very easy to, you know, get lost in the cow pastures and, and they had really cool roads where you could just ride forever.

Angus:

When I was a little I was getting that as it you know, it's important to see the value and giving the intellects a break. And that's one way that I'm sure that you do it is just cycling through the surfing. And once you get eyes for that, you can see how that when you know when you come home from work, your intellect still white, you know, trying to process what's going on. Yeah, and that's not valuable. It's all within the context of relationship, if you can identify that this state of mind is not conducive to a healthy connection at this point

Mateo:

It usually takes me like three hours, by the time I get in time. home to, to be able to have the ability to even sleep. I just need to Yeah, just chill out. Please don't ask me so many questions, and I just need to like hanging out. But that's, again, that's a story that I've also created in my mind. Right? I put that burden on myself by approaching my home life with that thought process. Yeah. So I do have some things that I probably should be doing more which join like a surf group or something. But those are really the moments of like meditation for myself to be able to really, like clear my mind. I know that I've been missing some sort of meditation and some inner peace within me. And yeah, and it frustrates me about the surfing thing because that was such a big part of of my life, even though I'm not good at all, I'll go on the record and say that I'm not good at surfing. I just like a paddling out there and just being an ocean.

Angus:

Well, that sounds like you know, your wisdom telling you that this is something that it's important to do. Because, you know, we can't really just run out, you know, we can't run on my intellect the whole time. Because it's just gonna we're gonna burn out eventually. And the burnout probably is in the relation. I don't know, to what degree that's responsible. But I would say that if you're constantly the machinery is constantly running. It's just gonna it's gonna be exhausting. Yeah. You just need to have time and space to just lay our mind. Yeah. And then that's and those moments, that's when you know, fresh thought comes in. You kind of pull back folk, you see the wider picture? Yeah, you're not narrow focus. Yeah, the meditation point is that is the wider perspective.

Mateo:

It's crazy, cuz that's exactly how I felt when I was going to ride. I feel so enlightened when I got back. And when Alicia and I first got together, I was in that headspace of just information just coming to me. And I wasn't overthinking anything. And now it's become a gear, right? I let information come to me. But I learned from it very quickly. And then I don't let any more information come to me from that source, because I already have it played out how it works.

Angus:

Right? So now you... but do you see the value is like this, this infinite possibilities coming from that space? Rather than like, oh, I've got this bit of information, I'll store this away and figure things out from there. It's like, well, but there's so much more. And in a sense, there's so much more in terms of how you will deal with your relationship. You can you can look at your relationship from that point of view. I've kind of taken this information, figure things out. And now I understand my relationship. But in actual fact, my relationship is, has got no end of possibilities.

Mateo:

Yeah. Yeah. And now it's like, I feel kind of awkward, it's like to, is there an apology deserving on my end? You know, how is that supposed to work? Because I see where I've fallen short. Now. It's like a fucking guilt thing. It's like, Okay, well do I apologize.

Angus:

You have to follow your own wisdom on that I can't, I it would be inappropriate for me to guide you in the sense that you have a really big heart, and you just got to trust and follow it.

Mateo:

Yeah, it's..

Angus:

it's really, I mean, it's beautiful to see, for me, just to witness anybody who drops into that space, when you dropped into that space yesterday, that was phenomenal. When you dropped into that space, when we arrived, like, here's a guy who's like, really open, like, doesn't really have much, you know, running on, you know, what it means to like, you know, embrace another human being. Is just like, just, you'll be guided by your own wisdom on that. The Wisdom is not really coming up from the old information, the wisdoms came from here (heart), the more you trust here, the better off we're all you know, me to the more we trust this space. And I and I use the heart because it's kind of emblematic, of, of being open. That's where the gold is. Whether that's in a relationship with anybody. But you having that sentiment towards the homeless person, that's coming from that space. You're seeing their essential nature coming from that space. And it's beautiful. I mean, that's really, we, if we allow that to be our North Star, I feel like we're good to go. Yeah. And that's, you know, when you have those moments on your surfboard, or on your bike where you're not thinking that's like, that's fertile ground for the insight to come in. But it becomes a reference point to see, yeah, look what happens when I'm in a relationship or in a relationship that feels like it's time to break down whether it's a work relationship, or you know, you know, a personal relationship is because the intellect is like constantly running, trying to figure things out.

Mateo:

It's usually breaking down because you're in a low mood, and you're allowing it to taking more effect than it was the way that you should really be putting on it. Yeah, , get it. Cool.

Angus:

I think we should stop.

Mateo:

Cool.

Rohini :

I really appreciate how in this segment Mateo was recognizing the importance of having a relaxed and open mind. And he recognized the activities that fostered that experience for himself. And he saw how he hadn't been allowing himself to do those things that really let his mind unwind and relax.

Angus:

Yeah, I thought that was brilliant. And I'm sure in the moment, what I thought would have been really brilliant was that we got to this point where he's asking me about formulating an apology. And I must have thought that that must have really provided me with concrete evidence that he's had some kind of meaningful insight. And we maybe weren't even on the home straight now. We've certainly turned the corner and going in a very positive direction. And I love the fact that that that sense of compassion that I recognized in him was probably eliciting this feeling of guilt that, you know, that he was starting to come to terms with about how he's been showing up in the relationship.

Rohini :

Well, you don't want to get too optimistic, because you haven't heard my session with Alicia at this point.

Angus:

Okay.

Rohini :

And we were going in a different direction, shall we say?

Angus:

Interesting. Okay, well, I wait, I wait with bated breath.

Rohini :

But I hear what you're saying in terms of the guilt. Like for me, that's a wonderful demonstration of how from one level of understanding, he didn't feel guilty about how he was behaving at all. And then he has this shift in understanding in the session with you. And all of a sudden, from that level of understanding his conscience kicks in. And he naturally feels a healthy guilt about that. And it's not something that's bad or wrong. It's actually him being more connected with his conscience and more connected with his internal wisdom. And that's guiding him. That's what saying, hey, maybe there's an apology needed here.

Angus:

Yeah. And you can sense how the tension is lifted, and that he feels an you know, there's a feeling that's just so beautiful. It's like, you know, where we started, where he was really in a place a very deep judgment, that seems to have evaporated to quite, you know, quite a, quite an amazing degree.

Rohini :

Yeah. Now, he also is aware of how he can continue to support himself, how he can allow his mind to relax. It sounds like he has quite a lot of responsibility at work. And he's taken that on and so he hasn't been practicing self care in a way that really allows him to deep decompress.

Mateo:

Yeah, I guess one has to conclude through that's so obvious that he has taken on extra responsibilities. And he hasn't been looking off himself in that way.

Rohini :

And I thought it was cool how he recognized when he met Alicia, he was in a completely different state of mind.

Angus:

Yeah, it was excellent.

Rohini :

I guess we'll have to wait for the next episode to see where Alicia is going.

Mateo:

Absolutely.

Rohini :

Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus:

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships. If you would like to learn more about our work and our Online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org Thanks for listening. Join us next week.