EP9: Give Me the Relationship Manual

Mateo's mind has settled down dramatically. But now that he's in this good feeling, he wants the manual on how to keep it. The problem is, it's his escape from the intellect, from the "how-to", that's helping him live in this better feeling, and pulling the intellect back in to try and figure out how to package and repurpose the feeling, will take him further away from it. There isn't a magic how-to, rather there is a deepening in our seeing of who we are and where our experience comes from and the experiential learning that goes along with it.

By the end of the session, Mateo starts to see this for himself. In his words, "wow, maybe the understanding is  the reset." Mateo has an insight about the way he judges Alicia, and about all of the internal complaining he's been up to. From this perspective, he can see how trivial his headspace is when he's judging her and that really it's just a waste of time. Judgment comes from within, it's not about the other person, and he has to live in the painful feeling of all that judging. Angus points out that judgment is in fact the flip side of presence.

There is no technique for staying in this space - we will slip up - but with experiential learning, we can surf our emotional experience more gracefully. We can surrender to the flow of our essential nature, which is our wisdom; our GPS system. It's not about never slipping up, it's about flexing our muscle to bounce back.

This episode explores:

• Compassion as a natural byproduct of presence
• How to hold space for others when they're angry with us: to not take a personal attack personally
• When we complain internally, we are creating our own movies about our partners
• The illusion that we won't perform as well with a quiet mind - when it's actually the opposite
• Surrendering our conditioning and programming to what's always been there and what will always be
• There is no perfection in this
• This approach is not new, it's natural.

Show Notes
Magic carpet ride to wellbeing: presence and understanding.
Blood and gusto: Angus's special mix of idioms.
Crazyland: a place only women travel to. No, just kidding, but a helpful term to use with Mateo during rapport building.
Boom: What you say before you drop the mic.
A-side: one side of a 45 record, or presence and compassion (b-side being judgment).

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 9 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.

Transcript

Angus Ross: 0:05

Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross: 0:12

This is episode number nine. With Mateo asking for the How To Guide.

Alicia: 0:18

I always felt like we were really passionate and affection loved each other.

Mateo: 0:21

I may have just made the biggest mistake in my life.

Angus Ross: 0:23

It's a right as a funfair, we go up and down, we are not moved and we love each other and we go into low mood, we hate each other.

Mateo: 0:30

See, for the most part, I'm Pirates of the Caribbean where there's only one drop and one rise, okay, everything else was pretty flat my life

Alicia: 0:37

In any given moment, his vibe just changes. It's like boom, like you hate me, all of a sudden.

Rohini Ross: 0:42

There isn't a magic how to fit there is a power that comes from recognizing where experience comes from, like, that's it. She might be blood and gusta, blood and gusta is the exact term?

Mateo: 0:58

What I think experience is, at least a drop of that bliss, just living in the moment

Rohini Ross: 1:06

When he's not in judgment. When he's present. He's gonna be with her in a whole different way.

Angus Ross: 1:12

In a sense, it's a jumping consciousness. It's a jump in awareness.

Rohini Ross: 1:16

That's what rewilding is. It's about uncovering who we are and seeing what's been there all along.

Angus Ross: 1:24

You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross: 1:28

and me Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross: 1:30

Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross: 1:34

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewelded, listen in as we guide a real couple back to their natural state of love,

Angus Ross: 1:45

Relax, and enjoy the show.

Mateo: 1:50

But it has been much more peaceful. I know it's a factor there's no TV and there's no. like reality TV or whatever. Maybe it's the silence up here. I don't know what it is. But it's been phenomenal. so far.

Angus Ross: 2:06

Cool.

Mateo: 2:06

Taking the drive talking here is been a breeze.

Angus Ross: 2:11

Well, that's great. So is that. So is there a better feeling between you? Would you say?

Mateo: 2:15

Definitely a better feeling? I mean, obviously, right? It's not 100%? yet, but it's it's the best... It's been really, really long time. that's for damn sure.

Angus Ross: 2:25

That's awesome.

Mateo: 2:26

Yeah. Very, very happy that's for .

Angus Ross: 2:30

Excellent.

Rohini Ross: 2:33

Well, what I what I think is most important about that segment is just how powerful it is when people allow themselves to let their mind settle. And that's why this format that we work with, we're working with the two of them is so helpful is because they've taken time out of their life. They've had a little bit of time in the peace and quiet of Topanga. And already he's feeling the benefits of that. I'm not saying it's not also the benefit of some of the insights that he's getting in the session. But you can hear how he's slowing down.

Angus Ross: 3:08

Yeah, I mean, I've listened to people talk about the benefits of travel about kind of being away from the habitual norm. So they don't have the TV on, they don't have to come home and stick the TV on. And really all they have to do is just smell the roses. And that in itself allows the man to settle. So it's good that he's acknowledging that and realizing that he gets into a more peaceful state of mind, and that their relationship benefits from that.

Rohini Ross: 3:38

And that's the rewilding process in action, because we're not doing it. They're being rewilded by themselves. They're being rewilded by their natural state. We're setting it up so that they can have the experience and we're pointing towards their true nature. But the rewilding is happening from within them.

Angus Ross: 3:58

Yeah, I mean, they're already programmed to flourish. Without the normal habitual controls. That's exactly what you know, you'd anticipate happening. I love the way we finished up last session, he said, Yeah, I just got to be, in a sense, that's kind of sums it all up in a way. It's not trying to really figure it out. It's just trying to like, just be in that feeling.

Mateo: 4:26

Yeah and not getting attached to a specific idea and trying to hold on to it and defend it. I mean, I don't know. We're just driving and having casual conversation where it could have in the past taken a different direction, but it was just cool. Yeah, it was pretty breezy.

Angus Ross: 4:45

Yeah, I think that riding that feeling, and I guess in terms of my very limited experience, Surfing is kind of like you get a feel for it, and then you stay on that wave but as If you try and like figure things out through your intellect type, where am I supposed to be positioning my lens, etc.. Usually you end up in the drink. Yeah, isn't that the case?

Mateo: 5:10

Very true. I'm just gonna take what we've been talking about this week, and extend that, and almost have like a build, like a tunnel to this, you know, to this type of life and revert down this road rather than, you know, the roads of negativity like, this is seems much more enjoyable. It's very cool if I can, if I can always be, you know, if I can construct this tunnel and fortify the walls to stay in this tunnel, that'd be a really great approach to life.

Angus Ross: 5:49

Yeah, that's kind of how I see it. I see for me, you know, I tried to be I'm hesitant about like, sort of trying to sort of create techniques and shy away from the sort of magic bullets that people ask you about, but in a sense, for me, it does feel like building a muscle. And I guess in terms of what you're saying, it's like, yeah, you're creating new neural pathways is kind of like in having the awareness itself. That I think begins the process of creating, rewriting the stories that perhaps have been present for us for a long time. So I hear myself using this word be, which, when I first heard it, I thought, what enough Am I saying there? And then I realized, what I'm pointing to, is this idea of being present. And it's so interesting to realize that when we become present, then we experience well being when we become present, then we're in the moment. And we're not really allowing ourselves to be subjected to the noise of our busy mind. So he's had this experience driving to the coast or wherever they were going, and has this moment where he really anchors himself in the present. And lo and behold, there's the well being, because the busy mind is not given that chance to engage.

Rohini Ross: 7:07

Yeah, that's exactly what happens. And I can hear and what he's sharing that he's had the taste of that. And now his intellect is getting involved in trying to figure out well, how do I get more of that? What's going to happen when I leave here, I need to build tunnels, like he saying, and it's understandable because of our conditioning, we think that we need to do something to maintain understanding. And it doesn't mean that there isn't a learning curve involved, which you point to there is a learning curve involved. But the seeing is what what's important. And once he sees what you're talking about right now, that the experience of well being, the experience of that peace of mind, is actually the result of having a quiet mind that that's just a natural byproduct of that, then we get more and more respect for just the seeing, because that's what it is, we need to see it. And in the understanding of how that works, then we're on the learning curve of having more of that experience.

Angus Ross: 8:17

Yeah, it is, it is funny to think that, you know, he had this moment where he could see how his well being or the well being of their relationship is in that moment of presence. And then reflecting on that, you can see then his ego getting involved his intellect getting involved in trying to build this, this time tunnel into a point where he can quickly access that in the future, as the intellectual machinery getting into gear figuring out Yeah, how do I package and repurpose this? When really all along it was just a falling into it was an understanding it was an awareness.

Rohini Ross: 8:53

And that is our natural state. It's not how do I get there? It's how do I get out of my own way that takes me out of what's my natural state?

Angus Ross: 9:02

Very good.

Mateo: 9:10

So what do we do in moments where you see that you're drifting into a low state of mind? And you're getting to interpret someone else's actions in a negative way, like how do you step back? How do you allow that person to digest kind of what you're going through? And the reason why you want to step back and also, you know, is it possible to coach someone themselves through that I know we're doing it right now. But how can you momentarily be like, hey, you're you're running your minds, runnings, just calm down for a minute.

Rohini Ross: 9:46

We always get the How to question don't we?

Angus Ross: 9:49

Yes, we always do in some way, shape, or form, get that how to question.

Rohini Ross: 9:54

But I always think it's a good sign when we get the how to question because it means that they're seeing something and experience something. But they, like I said earlier, they're just wanting to grab on to it and figure it out.

Angus Ross: 10:06

Yeah, it's positive sign because they're expressing a want or desire for that magic carpet ride to well being, whatever that looks like.

Rohini Ross: 10:16

And the other thing that I noticed in his question is that he's not asking just how to for myself, is also asking how to, for Alicia, which is of concern because it never helps when you're trying to coach your partner when they're upset.

Angus Ross: 10:37

Never a good idea. And usually that coaching looks like the other person jumping on a soapbox, and being dictatorial. And being judgmental, first and foremost.

Rohini Ross: 10:51

Yeah, it's never it never goes down. Well, when we point out our partners low mood to them.

Angus Ross: 10:57

Yeah, I think that the judgment is the key word here. Because I think that really is not coming from a place of love or compassion. It's coming from a point of view of like, yeah, you're doing this wrong.

Rohini Ross: 11:09

So he's had an experience of peace. He's enjoying it. And he's wanting more of it In this next segment. He really lays it on the line. Like he wants his step by step guide to be a good husband, which is a good thing that he wants to be a good husband.

Angus Ross: 11:25

Yeah, absolutely.

Mateo: 11:33

I guess I'm just looking for like a step like step one, this is what you do so because I kind of want to be prepared for those moments. That way, you can have an a plan of action of how to defuse a situation or remove yourself from the situation without that other person feeling like you're just being neglectful.

Angus Ross: 11:53

Yeah, right. Well, you can't, you can't defuse the situation, I would caution against trying to defuse the situation, in terms of what she's going through, because she's already gone crazy. She's already in crazy land. So if you go in there and try to fix the situation, I'm sure you've had the experience. And I can think of many times in the past, I think it's pretty much a male thing. We want to try to go in and fix. And we crash and burn every single time. I feel more 9 out of 10 times.

Mateo: 12:23

They just want to talk?

Angus Ross: 12:24

Yeah, yeah. So it's like they're in crazy land. We can't go there. So don't even try that in itself, I think we'll or there will be huge dividends in that land. So that the step would be just like, okay, she's in crazy land. And you can actually, I'm starting to get a sense of compassion more and more. Well, that would feel so against the grain, it wouldn't be even my framework of understanding, you know, five years ago that I could even get to a place of compassion when she's in crazy land. I mean, I'll be in exactly the same space that you were when you came in. She's in crazy man. She's like, total bitch. I want nothing to do with her. But now it's more case like, like, yeah, she's in crazy land. And she's like, she'll be in there for as long as he needs to be in there. But I don't want any part of it.

Rohini Ross: 13:17

Well, I hear you indulge yourself in some gender stereotyping there.

Angus Ross: 13:23

It did. I knew you were gonna pull me up on that. And obviously, that's quite a generalization. But you know, it was in the process of building rapport.

Rohini Ross: 13:35

That's exactly what I knew your were gonna say, to get away with it by saying you were building rapport.

Angus Ross: 13:40

I get out of jail, caught on that one.

Rohini Ross: 13:42

Well, other than that, I did have a bit of a reaction to that, I will be honest, but what I really hear you pointing him to is the importance of compassion. And you didn't sound that compassionate about me either. Again, I put that down to you build a rapport with him. Or maybe there's something you need to tell me. But in terms of the importance of how to navigate those challenging situations, when somebody is reactive, and they're not behaving at their best, they're behaving at their worst. What I hear him in the classic how to question is like, please, Angus, give me my step by step guide to navigating those situations when my wife has lost her mind.

Angus Ross: 14:34

I know and it's almost like, he thinks I have a secret that I'm keeping away from him. I've got some sort of magic box, or genie or lamp that have some genie is gonna emerge if I just give him the right way to rub it. And that's just not how it is. I don't know and I and I listened to that. I listened to that exchange, and I still feel like I, you know, I would like to think today I would do a more nuanced approach to it in how I would talk about compassion. You know, that magic bullet he's looking for really is about understanding and awareness that he just has to show up and see his wife's psychological innocence, and not take that personally. And that in itself will give her a whole entirely different read on the situation. And I'm sure that the reactivity will evaporate in the presence of his compassion. So if ever there was a magic bullet, that would be it. But you know, our ego has a as inclined to remain defended, and not be vulnerable in that way.

Rohini Ross: 15:42

Well, it comes back to the basis of what we're sharing with them, which is where experience comes from. Because if we remember that our experience comes from the thoughts that we're identifying with, that's what we feel. They don't come from the other person, when we remember that, and when we see it, and when we know it, we don't take their behavior personally. But when we forget that, we think that our suffering in the moment is coming from them when they're behaving badly. And when it looks like it's coming from them, we take it personally, we get caught up, and then we get reactive to so there isn't a magic how to. But there is a deepening and understanding and seeing the power that comes from recognizing where experience comes from, like that's it, and that it's in the seeing of that, that the ripple effect is that we don't take other people's behavior personally, the ripple effect is that when we see that someone's upset is their state of mind. It's not about us, then compassion is the natural byproduct that comes out from that. But it's not a technique, we don't give you a skill set that's going to make you be compassionate. It comes from genuinely understanding the role of thought and the role of state of mind. And when we see that role in our lives, it's so much easier to not take our thinking seriously, it's so much easier to not take another person's thinking seriously, it's so much easier to allow for the humaneness of another person in our life, and to have compassion for them. And I want to be clear, I've emphasized it in other episodes. But when I'm saying that I'm not condoning any behavior. I'm not saying that all behavior goes. I'm not saying that you have to stay with someone who has behavior that is abusive, or that is you find intolerable. But I am saying that behavior is a reflection of their state of mind is not a reflection of you. And that the more you see that, like in this situation with Alicia and Mateo, he wasn't seeing that her upset was a reflection of her state of mind. He was taking very personally. And all of a sudden he's getting more quiet. He's feeling more of that peace inside of himself. And in that peacefulness, he's getting more perspective on her behavior. And now he's saying to you, but how do I keep my perspective?

Angus Ross: 18:22

Yeah, absolutely. And just to be clear, I was talking colloquially, when I was saying, you were a bitch. And she was crazy. I was really that was my way of pointing to the fact that her behavior is a reflection of a state of mind. And it can only be seen in those terms. If you see it in those terms, you can have compassion and see the psychological innocence. You don't have to take it personally. So I just wanted I just wanted to just for the record, just point that out.

Rohini Ross: 18:54

I understand that, but I'm glad you pointed that out. But yeah, that was your way again of connecting with him.

Angus Ross: 18:59

Yeah.

Mateo: 19:07

I know that if I just stay silent while she's having these moments, from being neglectful. If I'm not engaged, it seems like if I'm not engaging, let's just say she has an issue with someone at work. If I'm not Yeah, you know what, fuck that person and let's go let's slash they're tight, right? If I'm not going full in on her side then I'm being neglectful. So how do you, you know want to in the mindset of being able to preserve this level headedness, right? And you know, that you don't want to be involved at all in this conversation? Because it's not it's not helping at all, your mentality or their mental state. It's not helping anyone. So how do you become a supportive spouse, not wanting to be a part of that conversation in knowing that if you're not a part of that conversation, that you're going to be viewed as neglectful and also if you want to take part in the conversation, so you're not this asshole, that's, you know, only giving time when it's only convenient for you that you make sure you don't prolong that conversation. So you're just stuck in that shitty ass conversation that you're just thinking counting down the seconds I got, I wonder what this is gonna be over.

Rohini Ross: 20:25

So I don't know if this comes up a lot for you Angus in your sessions. But I definitely hear this frequently from clients, not just clients that we're doing our couples work with, but individual clients too, where they feel that their partner doesn't have their back. And they really wish their partner was on their side. And it's expected that their partner will get the knives out if they have the knives out. And that if their partner doesn't do that, it feels like there's a lack of compassion, and understanding. And that's what I hear Mateo saying, in this segment that he doesn't always or doesn't necessarily want to get involved in the reactivity. But if he steps back and doesn't engage, then he feels like he's not being a good husband. He's not being supportive. And for me, it's about making a distinction between holding space for someone, having compassion for their emotional experience. To me, that's what's needed. When someone's reactive, they want to be heard, they want to be understood. They feel the benefit of empathy and compassion. They don't need you to get into the fight with them. They might think that they'll like that, but it actually doesn't help in the long run. And what really does make a huge difference, which is what he, I think has struggled with, because he has so much judgment, or has had so much judgment toward Alicia is he's really struggled with having compassion for her. And he, at this point hasn't had the experiential knowing of what happens in relation ship with her when he shows up with empathy, when he shows up with compassion, like that goes such a long way.

Angus Ross: 22:22

Yeah, I think that, you know, and I hear this a lot within the framework of our coaching work, is that a husband or a wife finds themselves in the unusual position within the context of them an argument being both the allied forces and the enemy all at the same time. So they are the enemy in the sense where, you know, the judgment is very prevalent, and has been meted out in no uncertain terms. And so, and then, you know, the allied forces is problematic, when in the face of all that fire, they suddenly start running for the hills, and bidding a hasty retreat. And so I find myself hearing many clients say how, you know, that they feel like, yeah, this is a situation that really is going nowhere. I need to go elsewhere until I settled down, let's say, but their concern is that, you know, yeah, they need to look after themselves, and sure, settle down. But they've had so many experience where they felt like, yeah, I need to run for the hills now. And their partners said, you know, what, you're abandoning me, why can't you be here? Why can't you listen to me. And so I guess, ultimately, what we're saying is that, you know, that times, it's good to put the oxygen mask on ourselves first and head for the hills, if we really feel like, we can't be present and be neutral. But the real game changer is to be present to be at the very least neutral. But the ideal scenario is if we can be present and be coming from a place of compassion, and that will only come through us seeing their psychological innocence based on their current behavior, being a reflection of their state of mind, you know, we see the innocence in that. And then it tells a whole different story. And that's actually a very powerful position to be in.

Rohini Ross: 24:14

It is and you're right, it has a huge impact on relationship. And I was called out on this by one of our daughters, in terms of my tendency to disconnect when her anger is being directed toward me, I would be the one that would be running for the hills, in my high minded manner, thinking, Well, I'm not getting involved because I don't want to be reactive, and I don't want to lose my cool and it would be better for me to disengage from the situation, which is all true. But then exactly what you said she's like, but you're abandoning me. And as a mom, I'm like, well, I don't want to be abandoning my daughter. That's not good. And, and so she forced me to look at how do I dig deeper within myself so that I can be present with her when she's upset and angry with me and not run for the hills, because that's what she's asking for. She's telling me, that's what she's needing. And it really helped me see a blind spot where I wasn't holding space for her in a way that I would want to be able to that what it did was it forced me to not take her personal attacks personally, like, can't say can do this all the time, but I got much better at being able to realize it was her state of mind talking, and stay present and love her and be compassionate and try to listen and hear what was trying to be conveyed. Not in a way where I'm feeling like, you know, putting myself in the face of abuse, because if I'm not taking it personally, I'm okay. And so it, it's, it was a big game changer in our relationship. And it was a big game changer inside of myself, realizing that it is actually possible to not take personal attacks personally. Right, like, you don't behave the way that she does. So I'm not having to practice that skill with you. But it does feel like a superpower within myself to be immune to that.

Angus Ross: 26:27

Yeah, and in that situation, again, you know, we can't reiterate this point enough is that when the person is out of balance, the other person is out of balance. And we're not taking it personally, we're not buying in to their, their corrupt thought system as it were, but we're not coming from a place of judgment. We're not even judging their corrupt thought system, we're actually having compassion for their suffering. And in that sense, it is a superpower. And that sense is actually we are in a position of you know, impenetrability. In a sense, there is only it was only ever us if we decided to take that personally that's causing the suffering in that moment.

Rohini Ross: 27:11

Yeah. And this next section really looks at that even more, because we we get to see where Mateo really has a blind spot about what he's seeing with Alicia in terms of the complaining. And so you know, let's play that part.

Mateo: 27:36

I don't complain, IDon't complain, because I realized how cheap it made people feel. Thinking to myself and internalizing, like, Okay, what does it sound like if someone were to complain all the time? And I feel like, there are people in this world that need to hear that, yeah, they need to hear from someone else other than their spouse. So they don't hold that resentment. But I mean, that was one of the greatest pieces of advice I ever got. Because it carried me through until today. I don't complain.

Rohini Ross: 28:09

That's fantastic.

Mateo: 28:10

You know, and maybe that kind of caused some hardship with you know, with, you know, the depression that I may have experience, because I wasn't complaining about it. I wasn't being open about it. But at the same time, like, I don't know, there was a positivity from not bitching all the time. Yes, there was complaining within my own mind at times, but for the most part...

Angus Ross: 28:34

Yeah, that is so interesting. This is bringing up something for me too, because I felt like I lived a lot of my life being a complainer.

Mateo: 28:42

Were you British, so...

Angus Ross: 28:43

I guess I'm British. And I think through this understanding of kind of, like, started to see how that creates this sort of environment that for the people that are around me, that is really unpleasant. But in a sense, is kind of like, in terms of what I could be off base with this, I'm just gonna throw this out there. But something to throw out there. Because I feel like I've done the same thing is when you try to get a handle on, let's say, that aspect of ourselves that wants to complain, like there's a kind of there are neural pathways around that that are very well developed for me over years and years. It's like a passed down from father to son or it's probably one of those things. So my moany complainy side is just like, you know, I see that when I see other people I'm around who moaning complains, like, Oh, yeah, that's what I do. But I do it 10 times worse. And then it's like, oh, I don't want to be that person. But then it's like that part of yourself that there's that disgruntled, dissatisfied part of ourselves that wants to go online, look for another way to look for another outlet. And it could be that we do that in our relationship in terms of like, if we're complaining internally, we're creating our own movies. Yeah, about our spouse, and I did that with Rohini for years. Now when we get to when we first got together, I was kind of mellow. I saw myself as a kind of mellow, happy go lucky guy. She was always would always say how he liked when I, you know, when when I got married and before we got married, he was so kind of laid back and cool. And then when we got married, you turn into this kind of maniac. And it was like over the course of time, I realized that, that's what I did, I think I got wind of the fact that I don't want to be these moany complainy guy. And then I kind of like directed all my efforts, kind of, not consciously, but in creating these stories about her that she became the focal point of that part of me that needed to somehow vent.

Rohini Ross: 30:39

This is a really great example of you using your own personal experience to start to make this point to Mateo because, you know, my sense is, if you had gone at this directly with him, he probably would have got defensive and not been able to hear you. And so basically, he's saying he doesn't complain. But as we can hear these sessions, he's got a lot of complaints. And so he can handle Alicia's complaints, because he's, you know, full of his own complaints in the sense that her complaining destabilizes him and he's not really owning the fact that he's a huge complainer himself, he's got this idea, like, I don't complain, outwardly. So I'm not a complainer, but he's living in this litany of complaints in his head. And I think if you had gone it, that stretch straight on and tried to point out his blind spot, it wouldn't have landed, but you instead, go into the story about your own personal experience with it. And I can see how that gets him, you know, to listen and to hear from your point of view. And then, in this next part, you know, you continue on related to judgment, and actually, he's able to recognize that within himself, which I think is so powerful.

Angus Ross: 32:03

Well, do you see how strategic I was back there? Because ultimately, I didn't want to come out. I mean, he probably doesn't even he's probably has no sense of that psychological term projection. But I still felt like that's not something I'm going to explain to him at this point. But I want to somehow give him a sense that there is this part of himself, that he's not even aware of that he dislikes that he's funding he's seeing in a in Alicia, that is this enormous problem. And it's, you know, it's this this the pot calling the kettle black.

Mateo: 32:41

Judgment of other that's something that I really don't like, yeah.

Angus Ross: 32:48

But but, but also be aware of that, you know, the judgment that you've had from her, there's really no different than the judgment she's having for other people.

Mateo: 32:58

Absolutely. And that's self reflecting like, Hey, man, you're doing this thing too, right? Yeah, we're doing this self fulfilling prophecy. Hey, yeah, you know, Andrew, back in the day told you not to complain, and you don't complain out loud in your mind. You do and right. It's no different than home shelter. The only thing is, I'm just not, you know,

Angus Ross: 33:19

Kind of doing internally.

Mateo: 33:21

Yeah, whatever. And like the same feeling that she is feeling I'm feeling just for myself or not allowing other people. So I mean, what's really the difference? The only thing is I'm being polite to you, because I'm not bitching. Yeah, right. But internally, I'm just a shitty.

Angus Ross: 33:36

Well, that's a good awareness to have a really good awareness that.

Rohini Ross: 33:41

So to me, what you set up in that transparent way, is what led to him actually being able to see for himself, it's not you telling them him this, he's realizing it. He's the one saying, What's the difference? I'm doing it too. Who am I to judge her for what she's doing? And so that awareness when you say, that's a really good awareness, that is such a powerful awareness to have to recognize that he's doing to himself, what he feels like she's been doing to him that he's actually the one that's been doing it to himself.

Angus Ross: 34:21

Yeah, I mean, this is an incredible awareness. And, I mean, I the implications of this are huge, because he now gets a sense of how he's showing up in the relationship. Yeah, she might be all blood and gasta, is that the exact term?

Rohini Ross: 34:39

I dont think so, never heard that before.

Angus Ross: 34:44

Is it? You know what I mean?

Rohini Ross: 34:46

Is it bluster? Some bluster...

Angus Ross: 34:48

Something and bluster. I thought it was blooding, maybe it's blood and guts, but it's something and bluster.

Rohini Ross: 34:55

You're mixing two idioms.

Angus Ross: 34:57

Anyway, you know what I mean. She's inclined to wear her heart on her sleeve. And yet he's showing up with this sort of very probably palpable feeling of judgment, which is probably even more prevalent to her than her being all blood and gasta. But so to have a sense of that, and to realize that, yeah, he's doing exactly the same thing inside his head, that she's doing vocally, I think that will be a game changer.

Rohini Ross: 35:32

Yeah. And the the recognition, that judgment is harmful to the relationship as well as to himself is key him seeing that it's going to allow him to let go of it. It's going to allow him to not live in the feeling of that, which ultimately, he is the one that's suffering most from that. Like, as he said earlier, when he's on that drive, he's in a beautiful feeling. He's not got a lot on his mind. You have him then recognize when he's got all this judgment on his mind, he does not have a beautiful feeling.

Angus Ross: 36:08

Yeah, I mean, it just goes to show how judgment right, right across the board is toxic.

Rohini Ross: 36:14

Yeah. And I think he really did a beautiful job of emphasizing that to him, with the example, you shared with him about the work that we've done when we've gone into prisons,

Angus Ross: 36:24

Yeah, thank you. We would go into this community, and we're not going in there to judge whatever, you know, whatever they've done, whatever heinous crime they're guilty of, we're not judging them for that behavior. We're kind of like valuing them as a human being they had an unfortunate circumstance, and rightly so they shouldn't be, you know, having to face the consequences of that. But that's not something that we're going to judge them for. So we go in with that really kind of very much rooted in our minds. And so this is a, this is a male prison. And over the course of two days, and we do this over the weekend, we have these interactions with these guys, but we are not judging them at all. So they are just just so not used to that they spent a lifetime of being judged. That's just kind of like these are people who have done terrible things and are in prison for the long haul, you know, somebody's been there for 40 years. But there's something really interesting about finding yourself in this environment where Yes, society would probably want to program you into thinking that these guys are all miscreants, and to be, you know, someone that, you know, you should keep a good distance from. But by virtue of the fact that we're not judging them, and we're interacting with them at that level, their hearts really open. They're like they're finding for the first time that they can actually speak in a very truthful and honest way about who they are as human beings, because we're interacting at the human level. And over the course of these two days, this is just beautiful, just sort of, I want to call it like an energy, there's an atmosphere in the room, that it's just, it's just kind of well being in action. It's like, there's just no judgement in the room, in an environment where judgment is for them that that's a common theme throughout the whole of their adult lives. And they have this experience where that's no longer a part of the equation, then they can just really be themselves. And it's just like, there's something everybody's just settled into this sort of beautiful frequency in a way. But again, that's just for me, another great reference point is like, yeah, that's kind of like where we probably should have been hanging out as human beings. But for all the crap that we make up and all the judgment that we that comes with that crap.

Mateo: 38:40

Yeah. Yeah.

Angus Ross: 38:42

All the judgment comes with the narratives that we create.

Rohini Ross: 38:47

Boom, it's my turn to say it,

Angus Ross: 38:50

Boom.

Rohini Ross: 38:52

You're right. Well, to me, that's a mic drop moment when he sees the impact judgment has on his relationship with his wife. Like he's seeing that he's putting the dots together. That's so powerful, because judgment is so toxic to relationships. And the judgment comes from within, it's not about the other person. And so if he's living in his thinking of judgment, he's living in the feeling of that. And he's then behaving toward her, based on all of that that's going on within himself. When he's not in judgment, when he's not identifying with those thoughts. When he's present. He's gonna be with her in a whole different way.

Angus Ross: 39:41

Yeah, I mean, judgment is. I was gonna say it's the flip side of presence, but it's the A side.

Rohini Ross: 39:47

What's that mean?

Angus Ross: 39:48

Well, when I show my age, you know, you had when you would buy a 45 record,

Rohini Ross: 39:55

you're not talking about eight tracks.

Angus Ross: 39:58

That be an A and a B side. Okay, so a musician would put out, you know, an A and a B set to the, to the 45. Record,

Rohini Ross: 40:06

I was around when they had 45 Records,

Angus Ross: 40:09

and you know that there was an A and a B side, yes, so the hit would be on the A side on the B side would be, you know, something that was very obscure and unknown more, unless you were the Beatles, of course, A and B were pretty much on the same level. So, A side is, is always that place of compassion, you know, being able to be present. And the B side is judgment, which would be the flip side of presence, shall I say, and, and it's so good now that he's looking in the direction of being present and sees the value there. And the flip side is, you know, at its worst, his judgment, you know, we can be off on something, we can be off with our imaginary friends and be thinking about something else, that's a whole other way that we might not be present with our partner. But when we're not present, and we're in a place of judgment, that has a very potent negative effect.

Rohini Ross: 41:05

It does. And the next part we're going to listen to really shows how, during this time together, he's getting a taste of what it feels like to be present again.

Mateo: 41:24

Really, trying. Lately, today, right, taking the drive of having created a story, in my mind, is literally that what I think I've experienced is at least a pin drop of that bliss of just living in the moment, which was really nice, because I'm not there sitting in the car and, and thinking about the narrative I've created or devising a new on, it's just kind of been like, yeah, I'm driving through this road right now go to the beach, and got my chick in the passenger seat and everything.

Angus Ross: 42:01

That's awesome!

Mateo: 42:02

Right now, yeah, there's nothing going on. But, you know, my, you know, I do risk analysis for a living. So there's gonna

Angus Ross: 42:12

So, yeah, he's still harping on about this need for be a fucking speed bump at some point, that's what I'm still kind of interested in, you know, creating a storyline of how, you know, a step of how to handle a tantrum, or how to handle a negative situation. And I want to be a part of it. I mean, that's, that's innate in me is, Hey, man, if you're walking down the street, and there's some guy that starts following you, and it's darkness, what do you do? Right, I kind of want that sort of thing for every situation in my life, and being in a relationship and having experience like, this would be a nice place to have an owner's manual, you know. there to be a process or technique, or an owner's manual. He's not trusting that, we can just leave it all down to understanding and, and I guess the ego will never be satisfied with that. Anyway, your ego will never feel that that's enough. Until we have, I guess, an experience where we get a reference point that, you know, that this is how it works. But, you know, I don't know how long it's gonna take for that penny to drop. But you can see him still trying to sort of finagle something out of that secret box that he imagines that I have for I'm keeping this, this magic technique.

Rohini Ross: 43:45

He doesn't realize that it's experiential learning, and that the only way he's going to learn is through the doing, he can't figure it out ahead of time, that the more he's present, and in the moment, the more he's got access to his wisdom, and he'll be responsive. And to the degree that he's caught up in his conditioning and his programming, the less access he has has to his wisdom in the moment. And and that's about as much of an owner's manual as I could give him.

Angus Ross: 44:17

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this sort of whole idea of wisdom to him is just just feel so intangible. It's like, how do you explain how, like a bird fly south or migrate south in the winter and it's just purely acting on instinct. And he, you know, here we are human beings. We'd come along, like, yeah, we need to have a map. We need to map out all the coordinates to get to get from A to B. He can't just rely on his wisdom. He his intellect is telling me I'm not I need something tangible here. I need a road map. I need my compass points. Yeah, he doesn't trust presence as being all that's needed. Yes, just way too mystical and his imagination or in his mind.

Rohini Ross: 44:58

Well, we'll see. We'll see where we get to next

Angus Ross: 45:09

I mean, I really feel like you saw something in the last session, things kind of shifted for you. So there's something in that to, I would encourage you to look more in that direction because it would be, it wouldn't help you for me to give you a checklist of things to do. Because it was just like, it would probably make the situation worse. I don't know, for whatever reason, I'm just thinking of this friend of mine as a coach in London. You familiar with soccer in the Premiership?

Mateo: 45:36

Yeah, come on.

Angus Ross: 45:37

Okay, so Well, that's good. I knew you're a good man. So anyway, he was coaching this, this guy with a centre forward and, and this team were languishing at the bottom of the table at a time where it was about to become this huge financial package was coming to the Premiership. So if your team is going down, you're in shit creek, it was the worst possible time to go down into the Second Division. So the owners, I guess, and the powers that be at the club, have got on board all these psychologists and like we're trying to do anything to avoid gratification. So they had this guy working with these psychologists, and they just filled his head with techniques and things to do. And it just made a situation 10 times worse. So this friend of mine comes along, and they were kind of at their last resort, I can't remember exactly how he got the gig. But then he just like started pointing him in this direction. It's all about you know, it's about being in the moment, it's about being in, you know, it's not like having this whole laundry list of things to do, you know, you just got to just trust that it's in you. It's innate within you. And for whatever reason, however, he articulated this understanding. And however, he pointed to this understanding, that guy who was you know, he took the penalties, and he missed every penalty up until that point, just suddenly realized that, yeah, those psychologists, I go up and take a penalty, and I'm like, my mind's gone crazy. I'm trying to think of all the things I'm supposed to do. And when I took that off the table, everything was peachy. And so they came out, it came out, you know, he became the top score that came out of the relegation zone, you know, and the rest was history. I think it's, it's so cool. So I would be very reluctant to sort of give you things to do in the sense, you don't want to do anything you want to see what to do for yourself.

Mateo: 47:22

Becasuse that wouldnt serve me now. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, but you do it too much, you do it too little, it is gonna do it.

Angus Ross: 47:30

Yeah. So it's like, Yeah, what wasn't anything in itself, that will bring you back to equilibrium, because like, I'm not doing anything, they're just gonna let it ride this wave right over me. She's having a crazy time, and I'm gonna let that one ride over me.

Rohini Ross: 47:48

That's a great example that you shared in terms of helping him see the importance of it being experiential learning and how all of that thinking just gets in the way of being present. And when we're not present, it's we don't have access to all of our resources, just like that soccer player didn't have access to all of that natural knowing that he had, he'd get all caught up and then not perform as well. And by having less on our mind that we actually get to show up more as our best selves. It's not through trying to improve ourselves, trying to fix ourselves, trying to make ourselves better, trying to do more to tweak that it's actually by letting the mind relax and getting present, that the best of us comes out.

Angus Ross: 48:44

Yeah, getting present, you know, another way to approach this getting present would be going with the flow. And so I wish that I had, I had used the surfing analogy in a slightly different way with the benefit of hindsight actually, Funny enough, I worked with a with a professional surfer yesterday, who was saying that when he's on the water, that he's having to go with the flow, he's having to sort of really be influenced by the waves in terms of the direction that he takes all the way that he chooses to surf. And so you can see how in that experience, that's for him, that's really being in the moment, he has to be has no choice. He said the only way that you know, but he gets into trouble when he gets on land, because it's a whole different experience. And he falls you know, falls foul of his thought systems and gives into anxiety and I was trying to point out to him, and actually this kind of resonated with him and it's, it's in the same way it's kind of given into the flow of your essential nature, allow yourself to be led by that flow. And you will you you will move with those currents and that you will be you living by your instinct and your wisdom. And the only way that you really you know, come a cropper with that is that you you you start to hesitate because you allow your intellectual machinery To get in the mix, you allow your ego to influence you. And that's generally when you fall off the wave. So in a sense, it's kind of like what Mateo was pointing to in this conversation was the value of being present and going with the flow?

Rohini Ross: 50:17

Yeah, he saw that he recognized that, oh, it's just like that surfing metaphor used earlier. And if he can really see that this is about surfing his emotional experience more gracefully. It's not about Alicia , even if she's upset and having a rant, what you're pointing him to is that this is about him, being able to allow his emotional experience to move through him, and staying open to his own inner wisdom and guidance, not going into his intellectual narratives of judgment about her, or how am I going to figure this out, it's just recognizing it's going to come and it's going to go, it passes. And no matter what the emotion is, and no matter how intense it is for him, it's going to come and it's going to go and once he gets a feel for that, just like with surfing, you get a feel for that, it gets easier and easier to you know, for me staying on the surfboard, the equivalency would be staying open hearted, it gets easier and easier to stay open hearted, even in the face of our emotional experience. And in that open heart space, we have access to our deeper knowing. And that's what guides us when we're present. We have access to that.

Angus Ross: 51:37

Yeah, we surrendered surrender to the flow of our essential nature, which is our wisdom, our GPS system.

Mateo: 51:52

I'm really hopeful, hopeful with the process of hope with everything, I just hope that I'm getting back to, you know, about the same nine to five, right, we're like seven, nine, work week, and I just want to make sure that I don't lose sight of this approach.

Angus Ross: 52:15

You will lose sight from time to time, I mean, the you know, I hope for you that you don't but you would be pretty amazing if from time to time you don't. I think the important thing is to not take any of this too seriously.

Rohini Ross: 52:30

I think that's an important reminder that you're giving him that, of course, he's going to lose sight of what he's seeing right now. And that is the human condition that every single one of us gets caught up at times, we certainly have a more graceful experience on going as we see this more deeply. I know that for myself, I am much less reactive than I used to be, I take things much less personally than I used to. But I still get reactive. And I still do take things personally, there is no perfection in this. And so progress can't be measured. In that way, it can't be measured by Oh, I'm gonna get to a point where I'm never in a low mood, I'm gonna get to a point where we never have a fight. And I think this is a common misconception for relationships is that good relationships have no conflict in them good relationships, a good relationship means that a couple gets along all the time. And that just sets people up for disappointment. So I think it's really great that you're reminding him that this is about being on a learning curve, this is about him getting better at not taking things personally and staying in that state of presence within himself. But of course, it's not going to be that way all the time. And it's not wrong. When that happens. That's part of the learning. Just like in the example of a toddler that's learning how to walk the toddler falls over as part of that learning curve. in relationships, we're going to get into conflict at times, in fact, the relationship has no conflict, it's likely that there's not a lot of intimacy in that relationship. And so the

Angus Ross: 54:23

Yeah, he has to has to be aware of the fact that you know, he's gonna slip up we're all gonna slip up from time to time, but what has to be considered as the bounce back and and the bounce back will be contingent on our level of wellness and and, you know, and the experiential learning, and having those moments where we do we do, you know, trip over the hurdle. And it is that's our growing edge at that point.

Rohini Ross: 54:47

Yeah. And this next bit, I thought was kind of funny because he's getting a little freaked out by how peaceful he is.

Mateo: 55:01

That's really interesting. I definitely feel like a different sense of awareness. But awareness with my own thoughts and just kind of like they're just coming in just like cool things that I've done. I've tried to do meditation, then you talked about that, acknowledging your, you know, your thoughts. Thanks for coming, thanks for stopping by, right. And that's kind of like, I'm sure it's happening. I can't even like think in my own brain right now. It's really difficult, that there's no inner voice saying anything bad. It's just like, Oh, no, it's very weird. It's like very observant, rather than the narrative. I just like I said, I hope I can prolong that, keep it going and not have to go through some sort of traumatic event, to get the understanding long term, you know, because a lot of people do that they they lose someone close to them, and hope totally change, right, Though been an asshole all of a sudden, like the nicest person and, you know, really caring and endearing. And I just hope that's not the case. And I don't think it is the case. It's definitely not an area to start building up in my mind.

Angus Ross: 56:20

I don't want any manifesting that.

Mateo: 56:22

Yeah, exactly. So it's interesting to helps this type of clarity and not be overwhelmed with the thoughts of what it would be like to not be, you know, in a relationship, what it would be like, you know, if she just didn't do this one thing, right? Like it just, it's all kind of talking of stupid, maybe, like, gives a shit. Again, why are you thinking, just live your life. Interesting.

Angus Ross: 56:54

Yeah. That's very cool.

Mateo: 56:57

Yeah, it is. I don't know what's going on in the room. But the feeling that I feel right now is something that I, I wish, and we'll hope that other people get to enjoy. Because there's a lot of hurt and darkness out there. And it's mostly just in people's heads.

Angus Ross: 57:18

So much about what he just said that I love. But first and foremost, I just wanted to pick up on what he was pointing to, around this idea of, of what the way that I see it, and this is how I feel like he's expressing himself here is he's observing his human experience. I've often of late use this analogy, this metaphor, if you like about how life can be looked at as being one of this, one big glorious computer game, and that we have all these different levels that we get to possibly go through in terms of how we might grow in consciousness. That's just one cute way I like to look at it. But I use that analogy because I feel like when we get caught up in our human experience, if we are indeed to consider ourselves spiritual beings having a human experience, I think it's nice to feel like we can observe the human experience from that spiritual level. And I think that what he was kind of alluding to, was the sort of early stages of realizing that that he is in actual fact having this human experience. And he can observe himself having it but he doesn't have to take it that seriously. And he's seeing that it's all just wrapped up in his thought systems. And you know, obviously, at the end of it, he has this incredible insight about how we could all live much happier lives, if we weren't so identified with the illusion the thought system.

Rohini Ross: 58:40

Yeah, it's beautifully said. And it is really profound, what he's sharing. I can hear that he's a little tentative about having such a quiet mind. But he's having the experiential knowing of it, which is what's most powerful, because he's going to have that as a reference point to always go back to. And then for him to reflect on his relationship from this state of mind. He's able to see and have perspective at how trivial his concerns have been like he's the one saying that he's the one recognizing like, Don't stay caught up in all of that negative thinking, just live life, enjoy life. What's the point of all of that? seize the moment is what I hear him saying, and then he's so compassionate, where he really recognizes that the experience that he's having, he would want others to have that experience to, to me, that's the natural outpouring that happens when we drop into that space inside of ourselves. We want to share it, we want to give him that space. So to me it's a really authentic genuine expression of his state of mind and being able to see things from that state of mind everything looks different to him.

Angus Ross: 1:00:01

No, no two ways about it. He's had quite a significant insight

Mateo: 1:00:12

Into my head, there's nothing going on. Most of things this can be a problem to get to work. Oh shit! I can't think, Oh, god!

Angus Ross: 1:00:22

No, no, no, no, no, because you'll just you're already you know, you have your level of skill says such that, you'll just do it. Just do it. Just be and you'll just do it. Yeah, like the guy who takes the penalty.

Mateo: 1:00:36

And you know, what's weird is I think that's why I really enjoy work, because it does throw me in the moment and there's so much shit flying at me that I can't pre plan to. Yeah, I think that's why I love work. I think that's why many people like, you know, neglect their family and go to work, because that's where they are living in the moment where they've already created this narrative. And it's kind of shitty, it's gonna be kind of cool being able to go to all different atmospheres and just being in the moment.

Angus Ross: 1:01:06

Yeah, it's a superpower.

Mateo: 1:01:07

Wel'l its a kind of cool. So pretty excited about that, and to do whatever it takes to really make sure that, that I prolong this, this environment that we're really cultivating. . And, I mean, that starts with doing the things that you know, are the self meditation, whatever that may be.

Rohini Ross: 1:01:30

It's kind of funny that he thinks his performance is going to decrease as a result of having a quiet mind. And I'm glad that you reminded him about the soccer player, and how his performance actually improved. Because I think it's quite common for people to have that misunderstanding that somehow, if they have a quiet mind, they won't be able to get things done. And I think that represents all of the conditioning that we have that somehow we have to use fear and stress and negativity, in order to push ourselves forward. And that he does have a reference point for when he's at work, and he's in that flow state and that quiet mind state that he does feel that peace. But I want to emphasize that that quiet state of mind is what brings out the best in us, and what allows us to excel really.

Angus Ross: 1:02:25

Yeah, and I think that, you know, he's still gonna bump up against the idea that his ego will be promoting this theme that with anything that feels unfamiliar, that could potentially be a problem. So it's gonna be, there's gonna be, there's certainly going to be a pull back into that old pattern of behavior. And it's just a case of sticking to the understanding that he now has an experience around, he's had an insight. And to be willing to open up in that. That's not to say that there's going to be a pull back into that egoic tendency of wanting to stay with what's familiar, because what's familiar often feel safe. And yet what often feels safe can also feel a whole lot like suffering to.

Rohini Ross: 1:03:11

Yeah, it's a reminder for him to trust the rewilding, trust that that's happening inside of him and to trust that energy that he can be, be welded back to his natural state of love. And that's an ongoing, unfolding and its never ending. Yeah, but it's constantly emerging.

Angus Ross: 1:03:32

That's what I love about this understanding is that because this understanding is just pointing you in the direction of, you know, how the mind works, and how important it is to have a grasp of, you know, the state of mind and the quality of that state of mind. How that has a bearing on how we operate.

Mateo: 1:03:47

Yeah, maybe just the knowledge of how it works and how we're constructed is a reset. Right?

Angus Ross: 1:03:56

Yeah.

Mateo: 1:03:57

It's pretty interesting.

Angus Ross: 1:04:00

Wow, did you hear what he just said? Yeah. That is such a shift from him wanting to have the How to manual, give me the step by step guide. What's the technique that's going to help me stay in the state of state of mind to at this point, saying, Wow, maybe the understanding is the reset. Maybe the understanding is enough. Like that's to me, that's him really dropping in and going, Wow, it's the understanding that matters. I know, it's so amazing, because he was so persistent. I think he's persistent to a fault throughout this whole experience. And particularly within this context of looking for that magic bullet. And then all of a sudden is like, yeah, you know what, wow, maybe it is the understanding after all.

Rohini Ross: 1:04:46

Yeah. To me, that's the awareness. Like that's it.

Angus Ross: 1:04:51

Yeah.

Mateo: 1:04:53

It's kind of hard to dwell on, on negatives, haven't had the opportunity to really think about like, super positive stuff because I just am being to his innocence. But it uh, it's definitely you can you can notice it more if you're a negative mindset like previous right? So you can notice a change more not focusing on the negative and knowing that used to focus on a negative and not having those internal feelings anymore, you really start to notice it. I'm not sure about the positive stuff because it's really hard to even think about memories right now.

Angus Ross: 1:05:33

Yeah, I don't even know that the positive stuff is important. It's just like it's a sort of jump, it's an in a sense it's a jumping consciousness, this is jumping awareness. And it's kind of like you get to be more because you're kind of collect, say, coming back to your factory settings and your factory settings are all about well being, it seems to make sense that the negative stuff will be more amplified. You'll see that more obviously. Because the positive stuff is kind of like who you are. That's your that's your essential nature.

Mateo: 1:06:04

Right, right. And it's not like you were super positive before now you're this enlightened being and, you know, you're you're missing the positivity, it's more like, you were kind of sort of depressed before you know what that felt like. And now, you know, you're not feeling it. And that's when you really, I guess, you can tell the difference more is when the past was more tumultuous, right?

Angus Ross: 1:06:27

And you're right, I think you do have a choice. I mean, that's kind of like, you know, as human beings, we do have free will. So we do get to decide what we want to do with our thoughts and how we want to run them.

Mateo: 1:06:36

Yeah, I feel bad. Like, you have a choice to be happy. You can choose love, right? And I'm just like the fact that she's feeling like you don't get. Yeah, you can choose right. And I'm just annoyed. But now I understand. It's, it's more real.

Angus Ross: 1:06:53

Yeah. And that could be just the platitude, but it could be but there is there's reality in those remarks.

Mateo: 1:07:00

Yeah. I just hope that she didn't reach this level of enlightenment, and I've been ignoring her for the past, like three months. Right? That would be kind of annoying. If you're just like, totally chill, and being that asshole that you're on all the time? Yeah, I would say. So. I'm pretty sure that's not. Yeah, that's definitely interesting, a cool perspective to have . No warning, why not? Not a suffocating perspective?

Rohini Ross: 1:07:33

Well, it sounds like Mateo is recognizing that there has been truth in what Alicia has been saying to him for the past three months.

Angus Ross: 1:07:43

Yeah, there's just there's that distinct possibility. And there is some room for remorse if that is the case, it would seem.

Rohini Ross: 1:07:53

Yes. And what he's also recognizing here is he's not having to focus on being positive. He's recognizing that he's not having to try and work at feeling good enough that this is a natural state that he can relax into. And that is very different than having to continually work on your state of mind and continually try and be in a good, positive frame of mind. How the rewilding works is that when we get rewilded back to our natural state, and as we're in that process, we become more sensitive, when we get caught up in our negative thinking, and we are more sensitive to the emotional feedback. And when we understand what's going on, we realize that, oh, it's time to let my mind relax, I'm getting caught up. And it will feel worse, when we get caught up. Because we get an unhealthy normal. But once we're back into more of a natural feeling state of well being when we come out of that we're going to notice it sooner, because it's really not going to feel good. And that's actually a sign of progress. And the importance of remembering and understanding that the feelings of love, joy, empathy, compassion, like those are who we are. Those are not states that we create. That's who we are. And it's in the letting go and in the relaxing that we fall into them. And it's such a relief to recognize that.

Angus Ross: 1:09:34

Yeah, I was just thinking how we can you know, what, what you're saying about those moments where we get caught up, they feel more amplified, because we have a higher level of understanding. It's almost like we recognize those moments of judgment. And then we begin to judge those moments of judgment. And we're really approaching that judgment with the same machinery that caused it in the first place. So we need to really, you know, remember that there is a higher vantage point and ultimately we will. And that's, that's the exponential learning right there.

Rohini Ross: 1:10:09

Absolutely. Great work, Angus,

Angus Ross: 1:10:12

Thank you.

Mateo: 1:10:20

Why did I allow myself to get there? And why did I allow her to get there? It's kind of like, now thinking about, like, a new way of thinking is like, fine wasted time, right? Like, everything on the worry and everything is, in the judgment on the relationship is just kind of like, Why? Because everything is spiral.

Angus Ross: 1:10:45

Yeah, I mean, you know, we went through some very hard times, and we got some really dark places. And then there has been a sense for me that Yeah, why Why? Why was I you know, I was shooting myself in the foot blaming all on her. And and all I was doing is creating my own suffering most of the time. Well, all the time, in sense.

Mateo: 1:11:03

Yeah. And you're also only strengthening the storyline that you're creating, right? You're putting yourself further distance from where you want to be with the sense of like community and stuff, I want to hinge on that. So it's just kind of like, what the f... why? why? Like I said, I'm very hopeful. I really am. And I hope that I can take, you know this, this new approach, not new, but almost just like this natural approach of trying to not create this narrative in my mind and just be just like today, was totally cool.

Rohini Ross: 1:11:49

I love that he sees that it's not new but it's just a natural approach. Because for me, that's what rewilding is, the metaphor that we're using is not about discovering something new. It's about uncovering who we are, and seeing what's been there all along.

Angus Ross: 1:12:08

Yeah. And then then it always, for me, also, this word surrender comes up. It's surrendering, all conditioning and programming, to what's already there. That always was and always will be.

Rohini Ross: 1:12:22

And he said it. He was the one that said, doing that reinforces the storyline, like he's really seeing it for himself. And I think that the fact that he's feeling some remorse now and going like why, like, to me, that's another sign of a shift and understanding. Because what made sense, not that long ago, when you were doing these sessions just a few sessions ago, what made complete sense to him, all of a sudden, he's looking and going, why, why would I do that? That's crazy! But that's what happens when we look at things from a new level of understanding, from one level of understanding makes complete sense. But as soon as you're at a new level of understanding you look at and go, that doesn't make any sense. I don't even know how that made sense to me before. But that's when we know it will be sustainable when it's coming from understanding. That's a real shift that's sustainable, because it's not going to require effort to maintain and it's not going to require constant work on it. It now no longer makes sense to him.

Angus Ross: 1:13:23

Yeah. It's quite the system upgrade.

Mateo: 1:13:31

Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. without gaining and understanding you're being prisioner and I mean, it's really, it's useless and infertile to just slap band aids on shit, you know, because you really got to do your own healing. And the only way to do that is really to understand where your thoughts are coming from and that they are just thoughts. So very interesting. Now I'll going to the beach...

Angus Ross: 1:14:01

Yeah, go to the beach. Catch the sunset.

Mateo: 1:14:03

Yeah, that would be nice right?

Angus Ross: 1:14:04

Yeah, for sure. Don't you just love Mateo? Oh, my goodness. I think he's, I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't sound very manly to say he's adorable. But he is...

Rohini Ross: 1:14:22

I have fallen in love listening to him.

Angus Ross: 1:14:25

Yeah, I think that he's come so far. Really? I mean, what a transformation and, you know, I think he you know, I'm, I mean, he's teaching me now. I think what he's saying and how articulate he is, and what he's saying is really phenomenal. Yeah, I'm proud of him.

Rohini Ross: 1:14:46

Yeah. Like this has been such a great session, because he was deeply impacted by the previous session. But then he had all of these how to questions the give me the seven steps. Give me the user manual but within this session, it's just integrated in such a deep and profound way that now it's his words that are saying, Oh, it's all about understanding.

Angus Ross: 1:15:12

Yeah. Wasn't it just such a simple shift? in perspective?

Rohini Ross: 1:15:16

Yeah, it is always...

Angus Ross: 1:15:17

Look to the left or the right. Whatever. He got a whole new set of optics.

Rohini Ross: 1:15:24

Yeah, he just dropped in. And, and I feel really confident listening to him here in terms of feeling that this is something new and fres that's real for him that will continue to unfold and integrate and that rewilding process will continue. Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross: 1:16:00

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross: 1:16:05

If you would like to learn more about our work and our Online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org

Angus Ross: 1:16:15

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.