Awaken to Love

EP11: Key Relationship Takeaways Part 1

• Angus & Rohini Ross • Season 1 • Episode 11

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0:00 | 57:07

Alicia, Mateo, Rohini, and Angus come back together for part one of their group session following the breakaway phase of the weekend intensive. We hear what can be described as a celebration and confirmation of the insights Mateo and Alicia have uncovered during their time with the Rewilders. They both reflect on past upset from a new perspective, while discussing a recent dinner out that would have "gone south" before their journey with Rohini and Angus began. Mateo was able to keep his cool, realizing he was actually just upset that he had to wait to eat, instead of assuming Alicia was doing something to make him feel irritated.

Alicia shared about her upset over Valentine's Day and her realization that it wasn't actually about the holiday at all. Instead it was about a shared responsibility communication breakdown that she feels confident they can sort out better next time one comes up. Rohini reflects on Alicia's significant anxiety reduction compared with when she first arrived.

Though they both share about their insights, we hear Alicia seeming a bit more confident in their steadfastness, while Mateo tees up questions and concerns we'll hear in the next episode. Will Mateo's insights last?

This episode explores:

  • Releasing the internal narrative when showing up to relationship -- the value of presence
  • Importance of realizing we have a narrative going on -- not a clear picture of reality
  • Approaching the day with a blank slate
  • Navigating low moods vs. thinking we shouldn’t have them anymore
  • Reinforcing when to engage with each other and when not to

Show Notes
Wobbler: Angus begins the episode in a low mood, wearing his wobbler on his sleeve.
Flash in the pan: Angus's concern that Mateo may not stay with his insights. Were they just a "flash in the pan"?
Disney ending: A fairy tale ending rarely experienced in "real life". 
Pop Rocks: Candy that explodes in your mouth; also the taste of discontent being replaced by wellbeing.

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 11 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org
To leave questions and comments for Ask Anything Episodes Call: (424) 272-6497

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.

Rohini Ross:

This is Episode 11 Key Relationship Takeaways. We're excited to let you know that we're going to be doing some ask anything podcast episodes. And so we'd love to hear from you. If you have any questions about the podcast about relationships in general, or any other questions that you'd like us to answer, we'd love for you to send them in. And so you can send them in via email to info@therewilders.org Or if you'd like to send in your question anonymously, you can call your question in 424-272-6497. That's 424-272-6497. In this episode, we're going to be listening to segments of the final session that we had with Alicia and Mateo, when we all came back together after our separate sessions, and it's really wonderful to hear what they're saying in their own words, in terms of what they've seen, and what they're taking away with them.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I think that this episode is wonderful. I feel like this episode is kind of a celebration in a way, of all that they've seen and all that they've learned, and the insights that they've taken on board. It was really, it was wonderful to be there. And, and I look forward to sharing it with everybody through this medium.

Rohini Ross:

And we do start off with you having a little bit of a wobbler.

Angus Ross:

Oh, yeah, we did. You thought you throw that in for good measure. What about your wobblers I'm sure you must have had the odd warbler here and there.

Rohini Ross:

I have inner wobblers.

Angus Ross:

That's right. I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve. Or roll my wobble on my sleeve anyway. Low mood, low mood, reactive. I guess my warning this morning with them? Is it seems like they were kind of both feeling a little bit awkward. And perhaps they won't even maybe even have tested the water. In terms of what it looks like to get become intimate again. When I say intimate just having a nice feeling with one another or even discussed it. I don't know. I'm just worried that yesterday could have just been a flash in the pan.

Rohini Ross:

Oh, but I thought he said he saw something.

Angus Ross:

I felt like he did see something. I guess this is all too good to be true. I guess cuz I'm in the low mood, without sorts. I'm seeing my world through that lens this morning. seeing everyone in it through that lens coating all.

Rohini Ross:

So can we put that upside down?

Angus Ross:

Yeah. My Goodness! I sound like I sound like such a diva.

Rohini Ross:

Now you know what I deal with?

Angus Ross:

I know, all you have to put up with

Rohini Ross:

On a regular basis.

Angus Ross:

But at least that's that's a healthier way for me to negotiate that situation and fessing up to the fact that I'm in a low mood. And evidently, I'm not taking it that seriously. Although obviously, I'm a little concerned about where our couple is at that point. And who knows, I can't even remember why I was out of sorts that morning. But I thought that's a good way to handle it.

Rohini Ross:

I thought so. I think it's good to demonstrate that we walk our talk.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, I guess I'd forgotten that I had that experience thta morning. And I think part of it was probably I don't know why I had that concern that this wasn't holding.

Rohini Ross:

Well, I don't want to give too much away. But I think that you were picking up on some things that were still needing to be addressed.

Angus Ross:

I guess so.

Rohini Ross:

I think you're intuition was on track.

Angus Ross:

I was too attached to a positive outcome, I guess.

Rohini Ross:

Why?

Angus Ross:

In the sense that if I had an intuition or an inclination that something was not quite right, that might be at loggerheads with my agenda of there being a positive outcome, what we were recording?

Rohini Ross:

And is that what was going on with your low mood?

Angus Ross:

I wonder? I don't know.

Rohini Ross:

And why are we so attached to a positive outcome?

Angus Ross:

I think that's just my ego. I think that my ego would be inclined to tell me that. If we don't have a positive outcome, then it would not be so marketable. In terms of our end product. I want my sentimental Hollywood ending.

Rohini Ross:

I'm much more of a European indie film goer myself.

Angus Ross:

You are! I tend to I tend to want something I want. I want my plotline tied up with a ribbon.

Rohini Ross:

You want the Disney ending?

Angus Ross:

I do want the Disney ending?

Rohini Ross:

Well, we don't get the Disney ending.

Angus Ross:

No, we don't get a Disney ending. But we get an ending.

Rohini Ross:

We're getting close to the ending, where this is the final session that we have with them together. But we do have the follow up sessions that take us on quite the journey after the intensive.

Angus Ross:

And who's to say it's not a Disney ending, maybe it's it's one of those those experimental productions at a Disney producer might put money into it's a new breed of Disney ending.

Rohini Ross:

Well, it's real life. It's not Disney. There's one other thing that I wanted to say just about navigating the low mood. I wasn't particularly compassionate as I listened back to that I'm basically silent. And I think that, as I don't remember the specific moment, but I can recognize in myself sometimes how I'm doing an inward iral moods. And I'm guessing that that was what was going on. For me at that point in time. I was probably thinking I can't believe this. We're going into our final session. What do you mean, you're out of sorts? And the best thing I could do at that point in time was to just bite my tongue.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And yet listening back. I feel like I can hear your inward iro. If that probably doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But reading between the lines or listening between the lines, I would say that was pretty apparent

Rohini Ross:

I'm fessing up to it.

Angus Ross:

And I think that I'm kind of in that moment fessing up to the fact that my ego is probably got the wheel. And I'm being gripped by a low mood. And I don't have to take that seriously.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And oh, sorry.

Angus Ross:

Well, based on on the levity that I was probably sharing with you at that point was evident that I wasn't taking it very seriously.

Rohini Ross:

And that we were able to just sort of air that out and move on.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, taking it not taking it seriously, but obviously feeling quite pissed at the same time.

Rohini Ross:

You or me?

Angus Ross:

Me!

Rohini Ross:

And I was at when I was doing the hike yesterday with our eldest daughter Akasha. She said to me something that I found kind of helpful, because she said that you and her have something in common where when you're an upset, you tend to externalize or direct it externally. Whereas our younger daughter and myself, we tend to go more internal with our upset. And so it helped me see like, Oh, you just tend to put words on an experience that I probably wouldn't talk about. And I don't really need to take that too seriously, either. It's just the way that you're working through it.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, is there's no right or wrong way to process that emotion. And I think that probably we get ourselves into difficult difficulty by feeling like we have to process it and make meaning out of it. I think Yeah, we're cash and I probably do have a tendency to, to sort of verbally flame fro

Rohini Ross:

She was remembering how every time she would have a big school project that she would have this massive meltdown. And then she would just go do it.

Angus Ross:

Right, which is very similar to how I often do it on so many levels. The podcast included. That's how I kind of get from A to B.

Rohini Ross:

And for me to be able to see that more neutrally and just recognize that's just how things unfold for you and I don't need to take it personally and it is part of your creative process. Yeah,

Angus Ross:

I'm just imagining it from your point of view. It's kind of like watching some sort of comedy unfold. If I was to watch myself on a movie screen behaving this way, I would probably find it quite funny.

Rohini Ross:

Next time is going on, I'm gonna have to play the Benny Hill soundtrack in my mind.

Angus Ross:

Something of that ilk, maybe something a bit more contemporary.

Rohini Ross:

Like, what?

Angus Ross:

I don't know

Rohini Ross:

one of the tick tock themes you listen to? Well, anyway, shall we move on? Yes. All right, so we'll go into the first segment of the session with them.

Mateo:

So for me, it's been very eye opening, and I, I can definitely see how my mind and the stories that I've created to shortcut, you know, the inevitable of like a conversation or how things are gonna play out, I always play it out in my mind first, and it's like a rehearsal. It's a rehearsal, right? I've rehearsed everything. And now, I kind of understand how that can be detrimental, because you're approaching every situation that you know what the outcome is going to be, instead of approaching it with an open mind. So for me, it's kind of been, you know, second thing is just like releasing that narrative that I built, in my own mind, that really has affected her and the relationship. And I mean, even going beyond just our relationship, I can definitely see how, you know, creating these powerful stories in your mind can alter the real reality that you may be facing, right? You build this narrative that, you know, the outcome is going to be negative, but it could be that the other person is, you know, just being their normal self, and you're interpreting it like there's some alter, an alter reason, or I can't think of the word right now. But...

Rohini Ross:

Ulterior motive?

Mateo:

Ulterior motive, exactly. To the line of questioning that you're getting, rather than just letting it come to you, and you just be normal and not following, you know, the, those powerful narratives that you've created in your own mind.

Rohini Ross:

It sounds like you see the benefit of showing up kind of fresh and open and really seeing what's there. So,

Mateo:

Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. Now, I mean, that doesn't mean that like throughout a conversation, it might not lead a certain way for me to be like, Okay, this could be getting annoying, but at least coming into a conversation with a clean mind. And no, like I said, not listening to those stories that I've built, in my mind. I think that's a invaluable asset to have.

Rohini Ross:

For this episode, we're going to be sharing a lot of the takeaways that Alicia and Mateo got from spending time with us when to illustrate what they saw. But also, what they saw is very universal and can be generalized. So we hope that it's helpful to everybody listening.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And so obviously, what leaps out here is how he's willing now to release the narrative that he may bring to the table within any context or conversation. And I think that what he's ultimately pointing to, he's seeing the value of what it means to be present with my partner. So I think of the ways where I might, I mean, an example that I could give about how I would not be present, let's say, for argument's sake, if I was going to go and teach a seminar, that in the past, I would have spent a great deal of time prepping for it, kind of almost creating a script for it. And so doing putting a lot of pressure on myself to perform. And I've now since learned that's not advisable. The best way for me to show up and teach a seminar is to be really in the moment and be really engaged with my audience. In actual fact, when I show up that way, there are a lot more engaged, it's when I go to script, that they tend to start yawning and falling asleep, or worse, still react in a negative way. But for him to be able to see that and realize that he is not only putting himself under a great deal of pressure. He's keeping his analytical machinery fully engage. But he's actually the expectation is for her to fall into alignment with his script that he's created and that any transgresion on that front is going to be problematic and contentious as far as he's concerned. So it's almost like he's waiting for her to slip up, and woe betide if she does. And he's gonna have probably a great deal of judgment, if in effect, she does slip up. So it's good to see that the greatest thing that he can bring to that situation is to be able to listen and to listen deeply and try and put himself in her shoes. And to be empathic in that way. We'll be one step away from compassion, and the love that really is their innate essential selves in that relationship. So I think it's a really fantastic thing for him to see and to grasp hold off at this point.

Rohini Ross:

Absolutely. In the next segment, we hear more about him realizing the importance of presence and the importance of listening. But for him to be able to recognize that he has a narrative running, I think that's so key. Because once we realize that's what's going on, we realized that the narrative isn't truth. Before this, he didn't even realize he had the narrative running. He thought he was just seeing reality as it is. And now at least he's recognizing, oh, he's been seeing the reality that he's making up in his mind. And that isn't necessarily what's really going on.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, it's huge. He's stepping out of the matrix.

Rohini Ross:

That's right. Well, let's hear his next part.

Mateo:

You know, wanting to be in the conversation, and actually listen, is something that I've experienced the past, you know, day or two, and she is, you know, I'm pushing away that so I don't know, then that this conversation is going to be so it's, it's allowing me to be more patient, and not just tapping my foot and being like, okay, you know, we've hit step one, two, and three, and waiting for number four, because that's when, you know, shit starts rolling down. Oh, so that's been very cool.

Rohini Ross:

That's great. that sounds freeing.

Mateo:

Yeah.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that's really interesting way of putting it because that makes me see how and I definitely feel like I've been guilty of that in the past and see how when we have a very strong narrative, and we almost have a script that we bring into play with that narrative. And we're kind of not really connected, we're not even present to hear the other person what they got to say, we're kind of like, just waiting for the narrative to play out. And the way that we perceive it should play out.

Mateo:

Yeah,

Angus Ross:

There's a disconnect just right there.

Mateo:

So rewatching your shitty movie over? The person next to you, maybe, maybe into it, it's probably into it. And you're just like, Oh, my God, I can't wait for this to end. All right. She's kissing him the first time here. You know, so it's, yeah, it's approaching it with a fresh perspective, or not even a perspective at all.

Angus Ross:

Because it's so easy, based on the narrative that we're wanting just to assume we know what the other person is thinking and how they're going to behave and act. And for my speaking for myself, invariably, I'm so off base in terms of what I'm thinking of my young, you know, my youngest daughter at times, I would like, totally think I know what she's going to do next. And I'd be completely off base.

Mateo:

Yeah. And I think that's what builds like a cynical asshole is, you know, just, they're so convinced with their story that they're so jaded from life and don't allow themselves to experience life and new, new experiences. So I could definitely see how, you know, it's definitely that, that cynic and it's like, Okay, all right, let's approach the day with kind of a blank slate, but a blank slate to allow things to come to us. Right. So it's kind of cool.

Rohini Ross:

I love how Mateo is able to really see how jaded he had become in the relationship. And that, even after this fairly short time, of settling down having time with us having time to connect with Alicia, he's able to approach her in the relationship from a much more open hearted and open minded space.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I think that I love what he's said about what was the term that he used is kind of like how I heard it, he's gets to reboot each day's a new day. And he can let go the script, just to be conscious of that alone allows him to show up and be fully engaged and present with her. And to see the throughout it all, we all have our own separate realities. And letting letting go the need to anticipate what that means. And just show up and try and you know, try and be present, I think is huge.

Rohini Ross:

And it's a great reminder for all of us to recognize that we're spending most of the time living in our condition, thinking, living in our story that isn't necessarily being present to what is, and how much better life is when we get out of our head and just get into the present moment.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And get to see how we do you're right spend so much of our life in anticipation of what we believe will be happening next, based on our conditioned conceptual mind, whether and in and in reality, what a far better way to be is just to be fully open to anything. And that's kind of what's exciting about life is we don't know what's going to happen next. But we spent so much of our time trying to anticipate exactly what is going to happen next and, and kind of really miss out on what is the what is in actual fact taking place.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, not only do we miss out on the experience of being present, but we also miss out on really being able to hear that inner guidance that is available to us when we're present is not available to us when we're caught up in our head. But when we're really present in the moment, we can tap into that.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, isn't it interesting to think that our intuition is much more readily available to us when the analytical machinery is disengaged? And it can really only disengage itself when when we're fully present and listening deeply within the context of a relationship being, you know, in partnership with someone else?

Rohini Ross:

Well, let's hear from Alicia.

Angus Ross:

Sounds good.

Rohini Ross:

How about you Alicia?

Alicia:

I think for me, just kind of reflecting on all of it. And I was holding onto last night, I feel like we've been so blessed to be given this opportunity to really do this whole process and try to like, almost reset our relationship and get a second chance of being newlyweds because we never really got that chance. Because I was traveling a lot. And for me, I think that every single couple should go through this process. And not in that moment that they're like, Oh, no, now we have a problem. But from the very beginning, because I think from the personal growth perspective, you just learn so much more about yourself, and then how to interact not only with your spouse, but everybody in your life, and to not make up certain things or, you know, we have a conversation and I'm dead set on my thinking. And I kind of shut you down to realize that I could still have my strong thinking, but I have to approach it that way. And I can almost open my mind to potentially seeing it from another perspective and actually changing my hardcore decision. And even just like seeing things and you know, everyone's gonna go through their ups and downs and moods. And that's it that's inevitable, but not taking it personally, even though you think it's a personal attack, even though you think you're being judged, because I know, that's something that you know, that I suffer from a lot. Like, I'm always like, Oh my god, they're judging me on something, just to realize that it's not me. And I can control that I can control like how I perceive that and just walk away and just be like, okay, like, I don't have to do it. And then just knowing that, like, you know, we spoke about a higher power and the spirituality of things and just to realize that that's a safety net. And that even though we think that we have to be in control, sometimes you don't have to be in control. And you know, your own personal navigation system will lead you to what is gonna get done, and it's gonna get done when it gets done. Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

A lot lighter that way.

Alicia:

It's a lot lighter that way very tranquil that way.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, exactly. That's great.

Alicia:

Yeah. So just thinking like, you know, work tomorrow, for instance, like I have this running to do list and I was remember thinking usually on Sundays, I get bad anxiety, like, Oh, my God, Monday's coming, right. And then now I'm kind of just in that perspective like that to do list will get done. I don't have to like stress it now. It'll get there when it gets done. And it'll get done next week. And just go with it that way. So that way, I don't put myself through all these crazy emotions and put some strain on like my heart and my stress.

Rohini Ross:

Exactly. Yeah, that's fantastic.

Angus Ross:

What stands out for me in this segment, listening to Alicia is just her general state of mind seems to be there for a soul to see with her level of enthusiasm for this whole intensive experience. And she's talking about, I don't know, this is how I heard it, but she's talking about how couples should or all couples should go through this at some point in their relationship. Almost like with our car, we set up on our calendar to do the service every 30,000 miles, it will be good to do something along those lines in relationship, just as a reminder just as a tune up because we're constantly being exposed to the realm of our conceptual mind and try to live our lives in that way, there are so many blind spots as far as that's concerned. So it's a good reminder. And I love that she picked that up on and I loved how enthusiastic she seems, which is an indicator to me that our mind has got pretty sacral through the course of this weekend.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, I think it's hard to really convey what happens in an intensive because it's not in the words, her enthusiasm, her feeling of wellbeing her open heart, the same with Mateo, his open heart, his ability to see things fresh and new. I mean, they're talking about it, but we got to sit with him and experience how that was coming from inside of them. And so we're just doing our best to convey that in the best way that we can. But it's not happening from the words they're touching into that deeper place inside of themselves that is intangible that is their essence. And they've clearly both been impacted by that.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, you could you could feel the discontent on the day that they arrived. You could feel that discord, it was palpable. And now that's been replaced with well being you can you can taste it. It's really beautiful.

Rohini Ross:

What does it taste like?

Angus Ross:

It's got a sort of sweet and soft center that nevertheless explodes with euphoric flavor.

Rohini Ross:

Sounds good.

Angus Ross:

And with some very distinctive notes of love in there,

Rohini Ross:

it makes me think of those candies that have those things that sparkle in your mouth.

Angus Ross:

That's true.

Rohini Ross:

You know what it does thing? You know, you eat it? And then it kind of

Angus Ross:

is this sort of explosive candy? Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

I've eaten chocolate with it.

Angus Ross:

I remember, I think I gave one of those to my dog years ago.

Rohini Ross:

No, that is so mean.

Angus Ross:

Ultimately, I think he quite enjoyed it. But it was nevertheless quite peculiar to him.

Rohini Ross:

How old were you?

Angus Ross:

I think it was 12 unexpected, isn't it?

Rohini Ross:

It is, I'm glad your dog was okay. One other thing I did want to say about Alicia is that she is clearly experiencing much less anxiety. And I think that was one of the key things that she got to see during this time was how much she was buying into her anxious thinking and how that was driving her, and how much pressure that was creating inside of her. And that was obviously having an impact on her mood. And so when she had that experience, where the feeling of anxiety lifted off of her, to me, that was a really great sign that she was no longer identifying with those thoughts and able to be more present. And in that space, she's clearly got more perspective, about not taking Mateo's low mood behavior personally, she's able to see that's a reflection of his state of mind. And it's not about her. And so I think both of those things, being able to live life with less anxiety by not identifying with those thoughts, and having perspective on his low mood behavior is really going to serve her well in the relationship.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, how cool is that?

Rohini Ross:

And now we can hear Mateo having a click moment.

Angus Ross:

All right.

Mateo:

Yeah, and it's been said, I mean, this weekend, a lot where you, just said it where you can't affect someone else's, like mood. And Angus said it a lot. And it kind of just clicked with me right now and like weird. analogies, like there's no remote control where I can just hit him be like, Alicia sad, Alicia angry But in what it really is, is whatever I'm saying in that moment, could you know, like, vice versa, it's easier for me to talk about it this way. She's saying something to me, she doesn't have that remote control that's making me feel that way. It's, you know, hearing the words and then attaching it to that narrative, again, a negative narrative or a strong narrative in general, which then creates my mood, or my reaction, which is really interesting, because then it's pretty much like self-Induced anxiety, right, or self-induced anger, sadness, because, you know, you get this thought in your mind is something sad and then you run with it and then you think of all the other things that make you sad and you just spiraling right rather than just, Hey, you know, there's no narrative don't create one. Don't fall back into an old narrative. Just, you know, just process it. Kind of like You know, with meditation, the the thought comes and you just push it away, like thanks for stopping by, I'll talk to you later. And it's just really interesting. It just kind of made sense to remote control.

Angus Ross:

I had this, this support for myself, it's almost like, you know, when you go, if I could go shopping and I'd be in a certain mood, I would shop for different things. But if I went through like a supermarket in a certain mood, I would like be throwing certain things in the bag. But if I'm in a low mood, like my mood is just looking for things that correlate to that feeling. So I have a little bit of that judgment a little bit of that, it operates in a way.

Mateo:

That's really interesting.

Angus Ross:

Before you know it, you're laden with crap...

Mateo:

Johnnie Walker donuts...

Rohini Ross:

Well, I guess he actually was listening to you. And you were telling him in all kinds of different ways where his experience was coming from and how it wasn't being caused by her.

Angus Ross:

That was that if ever there was a cause of angels moment, that was for me in listening back to that, because yeah, I threw everything at him. But the kitchen sink, I failed in that respect. But what's so interesting is that it took one comment from Alicia to make him suddenly realize, I don't know, maybe it was kind of an egoic thing is like, Wow, she's got something here. Maybe she's seen this. And she's obviously evidently drunk the Kool Aid. Maybe there is something here after all, so that clicked moment for him was like, I guess that was the straw that broke the camel's back. He finally lined up all the dots. But he got boy, did he fight that?

Rohini Ross:

What a great metaphor. I mean, he came up with that metaphor himself. It's a really clear indicator that he understands that she can't cause his experience.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, it's like everything led up to that moment, he finally got it. He finally we got to witness him have the insight real time, which I think is fantastic. And just again, just goes to show how powerful metaphor is in terms of how you explain something that really is formless.

Rohini Ross:

And we can't be attached to where they get that click moment from.

Angus Ross:

I know, I don't take any ownership for that trip moment whatsoever.

Rohini Ross:

Me neither...

Angus Ross:

In fact, I feel a little bit bereaved of ownership, it was more to do with Alicia, or explanation that may be, as I say, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. But thank goodness we got there in the end. That's fantastic.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, no, it's really exciting. And I quite like your shopping cart metaphor too

Angus Ross:

Filled with Johnnie Walker and donuts, as he says,

Rohini Ross:

Mine would be filled with chocolates and chips.

Angus Ross:

I don't know what mine will be filled.

Rohini Ross:

So even though he's had his click moment, what we talk about next, I think it's really important is that we can have an insight, but there's still going to be a learning curve as we integrate that insight into our life.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, I mean, even as he was having this sort of wonderful moment, there was a part of me realizing, you know, that's just one wonderful moment, there will be plenty of blind spots in your future. So don't let's get carried away here. But nevertheless, you can't unsee what he's seen.

Rohini Ross:

Exactly.

Mateo:

Now, yeah, it's really cool. And, and just kind of knowing that I understand to, it's like, it's an exercise, and you kind of have to remind yourself, it's not this thing, where it's like, oh, we just, you know, snap our fingers. And it's working. It's, you know, you're going to have those moments where, you know, you're going to start building that narrative, but it's important to be able to snap and understand that it's just a narrative.

Alicia:

It's just to listen innocently from like, the start where there is they could have made something in your head, but it wasn't going there. It was just like an innocent conversation, too. So it's better to kind of look at it that way.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and it's also really good to sort of, to reflect on what you just said is about, it's not something that's just gonna like, you're gonna snap out and, and change overnight. And I think that a lot of personal growth workshops, probably try and give you that magic bullet and you think you put everything figured out. I'm gonna go into my life now and everything is gonna be peachy. And then what happens is when it's not peachy, like, Oh, I completely fucked up. It's like, I can't, you know, I'm not gonna be able to get through my life. I need to find something else. I need to find the next thing. But this is what this understanding is sort of practical is because we're saying actually, you know, we're all human beings. We're going to have those moments we're gonna relapse back into our thinking. We're going to take each other and ourselves personally, but we're just going to get better at coping with it. We're gonna get a lens for it, we're going to see it for what it is, you know, as you say, it is like that muscle that starts to develop over time. And that's a much healthier outlook than thinking, yeah, I need that magic bullet. Yeah. If it doesn't work, what does that say about me? Maybe? beyond doubt.

Alicia:

Yeah, definitely. And I think for us, at least, we both had these aha moments. I think that the through this past weekend, but I think it from the outside looking in, it was really cool to see that like he was getting very anxious last night at dinner. And typically what would have occurred is then the rest of the night's ruin. And then he's done. And he's upset about and then I'm like, Great now, somehow I had something to do with it. But even yesterday, when you realized you were getting that angry thing, you kind of reset yourself. And we left that right then and there at that table. And we continued on and still had a great night, regardless of the fact like we didn't let any of the little bs for 10 minutes engross and just got to enjoy it. And got to enjoy the rest of the night.

Mateo:

Yeah, I just realized that, you know, I was upset in the moment at my situation of having to wait so long for food and when that, you know, she did ask me about, you know, this process. And usually, then I'd say, Man, she's crying, right? Because I'm in a low mood when she's crying for something. She's not just, you know, innocently asking me about these questions. And when I got it, there was that moment of like, oh, my god, she's crying. But then, like I said, I, I took back, and I was like, Nah, man, she's not, I'm just really pissed off, not feeling well, and knows it was really cool. It was really cool. And I am excited to strengthen that muscle.

Rohini Ross:

I'm really glad that you emphasize the importance of the learning curve. Because it's really nice to have these experiences where we get clarity, we get a glimpse of what's available. But in order to make it sustainable, there's typically a learning curve for people in order to integrate that understanding. And so it's important to help prepare them as they go back into their life as to how they're going to navigate that learning curve, and to not have these unrealistic expectations that Oh, now they've got it all figured out, everything's going to be nice and easy all the time. What they've got, in terms of the work ahead of them is to really put into practice everything that they've seen in this intensive and to show how it plays out in real life. And the example at the restaurant, I think, is a really great example of how they're already doing that. And they were able to have that experience, but not have it derail their evening, he was able to recognize that he was in a low mood, and that's where his negative thinking was coming from, and that he didn't need to get on board with it. And Alicia was able to not take his behavior personally. And so something that might have really created a down hill spiral for them actually ended up, you know, being molehill, and not a mountain.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and I love the way that he's referring to his learning, being analogous with a muscle that he's developing. And it was great that they had that experience in the restaurant, because it was a small little reference point that now will hopefully be something that they can access at a point in the future when there is a there is a bigger blind spot that will come their way which is inevitable. But, you know, in the way that he's talking about that muscle development, for me, that's it's more about the awareness that is taking hold. And it's not a magic bullet. And it's not a technique. It's not something he can put in his tool belt. It's an awareness of how the mind works and operates and he's can see this is a train of thought that I don't necessarily need to get on now. And if I do that's going to be a reflection of my state of mind has probably gone South so I can kind of like weather that storm. I'm much better equipped now to weather weather that storm when it emerges and the reference to the restaurant is a good example of that.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, so far, so good.

Angus Ross:

So far, so good.

Rohini Ross:

And in the next segment, I talk more about how progress looks which can look somewhat paradoxical.

Angus Ross:

Yes, it and I think that it's in that paradox, that we get to question ourselves and we get to grow and learn

Rohini Ross:

What you're both describing is that you both had sort of a shift in understanding. And when we have a shift and understanding, we see life differently. So that's what you're experiencing really, oh, I'm not bothered by her eating. So from this understanding, you were bothered by her eating from this understanding, well, no problem, it's fine. Now what happens at this level of understanding, when you get these stabilized, it will feel worse than it felt at this level of understanding, because your sensitivity to it has gone up, it will feel so less disturbance is going to feel bigger than it used to feel down here. This is making sense to you the reason I'm saying because it can be kind of a shock and can feel like that you're backtracking. But it's actually an important measure of progress. Because what would have felt normal or just, you know, whatever, and not a big deal before is now going to be tapping you on the shoulder and you're noticing that, to realize that oh, I am stirred up now, like, you're gonna get aware of the warning signals sooner, and they might feel a little worse. But that's actually a good thing, because it's waking you up?

Mateo:

Yeah, it's like we've built up a tolerance for removing the tolerance.

Rohini Ross:

Exactly, exactly. So you don't want that tolerance.

Mateo:

Let's not buy chips.

Rohini Ross:

In a good state of mind, it'll be not a problem. But when she heard chip eating starts bugging you, you're gonna realize like, Oh, I'm stirred up, because she doesn't have the remote control. Right?. I'm stirred up, like, that's gonna be one of your warning signals. Maybe that's like, Oh, I'm in a bad state of mind.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, we're gonna get more tuned to our own personal state of mind, we'll be realizing when we're stirred up. And I think that's the tendency is to feel like, Oh, god, my mood at this moment is really amplified. What does that say about me, that's the sort of old narrative that we were running. But really all we're just much better equipped to notice it more. And I think that's where the change and the muscle development camp kicks in, is we just get to see our mood in certain situations. And then we don't necessarily, you know, we're not less well, far less likely to run with it, although there will initially be that tendency to judge it, oh, I shouldn't be beyond this, I shouldn't be having this, this reaction, those those old neural pathways are compelling. So, you know, that's gonna be quite typical to begin with.

Rohini Ross:

Yes, I like that, what you talked about in terms of tolerance, it's like if you've been walking with a rock in your shoe, and just used to it, like, learn how to live with a rock in your shoe, you take the rock out, your foot feels really good. It's like, this is great, but then you get a little rock, and you see, like, Oh, this really hurts now, well, you wouldn't even notice that little rock before, because you have the big rock in your shoe. So it's like, but it's a good thing. You want to notice that the rocks there, so you can take it out sooner, which would mean take care of yourself. And, and in terms of letting the mind settle. Like, it's what we're sharing is so simple, because it's really about learning how to help yourself and let your mind settle. And you figure out what that is, by listening real time to what makes sense to you. So if you know that when the mind is stirred up, it's not its natural state, you have to work at it, like you said, you know, you have to work at that narrative to keep it going. When you're realizing that's what's going on, you'll know real time what to do, when that's happening. Because if you're in the middle of work, you'll do something different than if you're at home. And maybe you could go walk the dog, like you were saying, but you'll kind of realize and be on the learning curve of what helps me when my mind gets stirred up. Maybe it is going to be you know, meditation or something in that moment, but it's not never going to be one thing. And the power isn't in the technique that you use the power is and understanding what's going on. And that's Oh, I've got a stirred up mind. And then if you disengage from that in whatever way you choose to, it's going to naturally settle and even if you engage with it and run with it, because I still do that. Eventually I'm going to stop we have to start we don't do it forever and eventually My mind is going to settle so I might have suffered a lot longer if I really run with it but it's not the end of the world and you just start to see like oh the natural state of the mind is to come back to peace and when we're at peace, the world our relationships, our work our life, it's looks good and we can even if there is something challenging, we can figure out what to do in that situation. When our mind is stirred up. Life can be great and it doesn't look like it it looks terrible because we're just looking at it through that lens of a stared at mind. So you both will just get a feel for what you're how you're looking at life like am I looking at it through the stirred up state of mind if I am I can't take my thinking seriously right now I'm a little crazy. If I'm looking at it from a, you know, a nice peaceful state of mind. We know that because of our feeling state and we can kind of trust ourselves and trust our thinking and we'll you know the best of us will come out at those times. What I've noticed too, and what people talk about is that when the mind is more settled, so I love what you're recognizing that you can be stirred up even to is thinking about something good. But when your mind is more settled, just life impacts us more like we feel the beauty of the ordinariness of life, like we look at this, and if we're gonna really start up mine, we wouldn't even notice this view. But in a peaceful state of mind, like, Wow, look at that. It's amazing, we feel it, like we feel the beauty of that and, and everyday life has that capacity to impact us in beautiful ways. But when we're really stirred up, it's like, can't get through, nothing really gets through or that feeling because the feeling is inside of us. Like when I look at that. There's no remote control from that view to how I feel either. But I can feel those feelings that are inside me that kind of just filled me up when I look at something beautiful, when I'm in that state of mind to do that. So it's not the view because I could have a very different experience with that view. It's like where I'm at inside of myself. And it's nice to be able to feel the beauty and the joy and the richness of life that's inside of us, just living our daily lives.

Angus Ross:

OhI love that, that rock in the shoe metaphor for that was really good. Was that original?

Rohini Ross:

I think so...

Angus Ross:

Sounds very impressive. Because I feel like, yeah, it's so easy to think that. That we lose that sense of tolerance that all of a sudden, we're back to all ways when an actual fact we have had a shift in consciousness. We've removed that giant rock and all of a sudden, that tiny little pebble, that insignificant pebble suddenly starts to look like a real problem. I think that that really is something that's worthy to talk about here.

Rohini Ross:

I agree because it is paradoxical, like I said earlier, and it can be confusing to people. Because they think that they won't have a low mood after they've had a shift in consciousness. Or they think that they won't get stirred up after a shift in consciousness. But that's not how it works. We actually notice it more. When we're caught up, we notice it sooner, because we are so aware of the disturbance. And it feels worse when we feel bad, it doesn't feel better. And that's actually a really good thing. Because we want to know, what our state of mind is we want to be able to have that feedback from our emotions, let us know. And so he's going to be more acutely aware of that. And she's going to be more acutely aware of that. And having them recognize that that's the health of the feedback system working in a way that they had override it it overrode it overridden it.

Angus Ross:

I think overriden maybe,

Rohini Ross:

In the way that they overrode it in the past, that they were ignoring it. And they weren't noticing the check engine light was on. But now hopefully, they are going to notice it. And it's going to feel bad. But that's a good thing. If you touch a hot stove, you want it to hurt. You want that feedback?

Angus Ross:

Yeah, you know, it's, I think, also I think upon, you know, when I reflect on my own experience, prior to this understanding, I felt like with each new technique, I may have learned at some personal growth workshop, I think I came away thinking, well, I shouldn't have low moods anymore. And that was a big mistake. I'm really what got me into trouble. And to realize that that's part of the human experience. And really, what we are trying to share here is how to be better at negotiating those low moods, that they're inevitable that we don't have to take them nearly so seriously. And we can tolerate them. And it doesn't mean anything. And that tiny little pebble is very insignificant, but we have a tendency to make all kinds of meaning out of it. In the same way that when that low mood reared its ugly head post, some sort of personal growth workshop that you would have dragged me to when that happened, and that reared its ugly head, I thought, oh, gosh, our marriages just you know, is just is just destined to fall by the wayside here and make all kinds of meaning out of it. And that was just you know, it's kind of like, with those low moods, the circus would come to town but with this understanding, there's a low mood Yeah, you know what? the circus can can stay home today.

Rohini Ross:

Being Human is a circus?

Angus Ross:

Being human is a circus, the human experience for sure is a circus.

Rohini Ross:

And when we have a shift in understanding our low mood from that shift may be better than our high mood before we had that shift. But it feels bad. Yeah. So that's the irony in the paradoxical part of it is that it feels terrible when it actually could be way better than it was before.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, absolutely. Isn't that interesting. And then also, I think about the times where, for whatever reason, we're at a low ebb. And that's why I think it's important to think that there will be blind spots and expect blind spots, because it's in those blind spots where, yeah, the circus came to town without us even noticing.

Rohini Ross:

We're all learning and growing.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, absolutely, always.

Rohini Ross:

And so the other piece that I think was important is to recognize that we will have less tolerance, when we have that shift in consciousness, we are going to be more sensitive to our state of mind. But we also from that shift, and from a clearer state of mind, are able to experience life more fully, we're able to be impacted by the beauty of the experience, by the love in our heart, that we're more open to that as well. So it's not all downside, but the upside is that we have a much greater ability to be impacted by our deeper nature.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, it's all about presence, isn't it?

Rohini Ross:

Something that we had discussed was like the Valentine's Day thing, where the expectations sometimes and like getting stirred up and realizing that's on your own emotions, but then realizing when to engage and when not to because me kind of projecting to you and being angry with you on Valentine's Day, did not get my real point across at all and didn't accomplish anything and what, and maybe it's revisiting it when you are in an unnatural state, which would have just been, just give me a phone call and let me know that you're two hours late, I know that we're not,we never plan on when're going to come up here. And that's partially like my fault as well. But just to know, like, at least a little bit of an idea of like, what the timeframe was that you would be home so we can just plan accordingly. And I think that's the difference is like just realizing that state that later on once you know that you you can come to terms with what really did kind of bother you. Yeah, it's like there's a difference between? Well, one, we talked about how you nothing good gets worked out in that moment, when one person even if it's just one person that's reactive, nothing good is gonna come from it. And so to be able to leave that alone, and just wait to get into a neutral state, we talked about neutral. How we can misjudge neutral because I shared with Alicia, I got a text from one of my clients that I work with. And I had just suggested website designer to her because she was looking for someone to do that. And I got this text back. Oh this one had built my own. Oh boy, okay, what recommend her to anybody else again. And then she emailed me, she's, you know, I'm so sorry, I thought I was neutral when I sent you that text. And I read it. And I realized, like, I was completely not neutral. So to be able to really get clear about what neutral is so important. So after any kind of upset, to be neutral is a good feeling. It's an open heart, there's no attachment, there's no criticism, there's no wrong making. It's just like, hey, and then there's maybe even personal responsibility, like, Oh, I realized we didn't know I didn't clarify when we're leaving. And you know, it's like, and then you can figure things out from that place. But from the other place of where we're compelled to try and get our point across. It's like we that's the learning curve, like, no, this is the time to zip it up. You know, this is the time to use my feeling state is my indicator that I am not on the GPS, whatever is going on.

Alicia:

And then it's like just like almost like an avalanche. Like, that's really what I was upset about was just the non communication of like, the timeframe of coming home to then then it just started spiraling. And it's Valentine's Day, no, and no gift. Where I should have just been like, I'm eating your chocolate. Like, you know, like, instead of just making it up man and just being angry about everything, and then blowing up that moment, when in actuality, that day was great. Like I had a great day at work. I had a great day. I was excited to pack and get over here and drop off the dog and I literally made the most miniscule thing that I could have stated later on or if I had been in a neutral mind just stating that in that moment, but because I wasn't there, everything worked me. And it wasn't even about the stupid Valentine's Day. It wasn't about any of that was just like I wish I would have just known the timeframe.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, and so something that's that you know, simple when you're in a good state of mind like oh, that's kind of common sense becomes the end of the world, crisis. And it's like, oh, that from that to that and 30 seconds. How does that happen? That's how we are as human beings. I thought it was really cool how Alicia just naturally started to revisit some of her big concerns that she came in with and see them from a different vantage point.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, isn't that wonderful, and that, again, is that it's much easier to look at or revisit those those situations from the state of mind that she currently now finds herself in, which is a much more settled state of mind, much more neutral state of mind.

Rohini Ross:

And she sees lots of possibilities now that she didn't see at the time.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And she's much more philosophical about it, rather than caught up in judgment.

Rohini Ross:

Absolutely. Mateo still has some questions, though. He's got some worries.

Angus Ross:

I guess that was inevitable.

Rohini Ross:

And you'll hear about Mateos worries in the next episode. In the meantime, please send in your questions or topics you'd like us to discuss in our Ask anything episodes by either emailing to us at info at therewilders.org that's info@therewilders.org or by leaving a voicemail at 1-424-272-6497 . Talk soon.