EP12: Key Relationship Takeaways Part 2

The Rewilders meet with Alicia and Mateo to discuss more key relationship takeaways all together again. Mateo comes in with thinking inspired by his risk analysis background, as he starts to reach out for the how-to guide once more. The Rewilders help him recall that his wisdom will help guide him in the moment. Alicia sounds ready to go home and practice this new understanding in their relationship -- she feels confident that they can approach conflict differently now. Mateo gets there as well by the end of the conversation.

Angus relays a touching story about when he and Rohini first came to this understanding, through their own intensive from the client seat. At first their home was more peaceful than ever until the sh*t hit the fan again. But this time it was different. As Angus prepared to go give Rohini a piece of his mind, he was struck with the feeling of his own true nature reconnecting him to his conscience. He saw very clearly that he wanted to embody his true self rather than the "nutcase" who was about to yell at his wife.

Mateo and Alicia can really relate, and they see how this understanding would be so useful for everyone to know, regardless of relationship status. Alicia and Mateo graciously reinforce their happiness that their sessions will be shared with the world, in hopes that if even one person has a change of heart from listening, that that will be worth it all.

This explores explores:

• Connecting with our conscience
• How with this understanding, the love becomes the norm and the B.S. becomes the exception
• They will still come up against challenges and resistance, but that's how we grow in consciousness
• When we’re able to not take behavior personally, we’re more able to make a clear choice about staying or leaving because our sense of self is not wrapped up in the decision.
• The difference between shutting down and compassionately waiting for a clearer mind
• Star Wars characters

Show notes
Flabbergasted: Angus's feeling at the end of the session; "greatly surprised or astonished"
Nip it in the bud: an expression that is often mistaken as "nip it in the butt" though, disappointingly, it is in fact the “bud”.
Psychological snake oil: Angus initially feared he'd been fooled by this when learning about state of mind and wellbeing.
Take the needle off the record: wake up to your true nature; also a totally hipster move.

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 12 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org
To leave questions and comments for Ask Anything Episodes Call: (424) 272-6497

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.

Transcript

Rohini Ross: 0:01

This is Episode 12. Part Two of Key Relationship Takeaways. We're excited to let you know that we're going to be doing some ask anything podcast episodes. And so we'd love to hear from you. If you have any questions about the podcast about relationships in general, or any other questions that you'd like us to answer, we'd love for you to send them in. And so you can send them in via email to info at the rewinders.org info at the rewilding org. Or if you'd like to send in your question anonymously, you can call your question in 24242726497. That's 424-272-6497. In this episode, we're going to continue listening to the learnings that Alicia and Mateo are taking home with them. And we're gonna start off with Mateo's question.

Mateo: 1:30

When you realize right, that your partner is acting this way, is not neutral, but wants to have this conversation. I'm guilty of it as well. The other one's supposed to tell them without being condescending, like, Hey, I don't control your remote. Right? Like, how can we be like, hey, let's, cuz I mean, I mean, Alicia knows, she does it to me, too. It's, you know, we're like, Hey, you know, you're, I see that you're angry when we talk about this later. But it's like, no, I gotta get this out. Yeah, right. Yeah. How do we set the boundary where it's conducive to the actual conversation to not have a moment and have it later on?

Rohini Ross: 2:07

Well, why don't you you talk about this now, like, rather than us tell you how to do it. Like what makes like, based on what you know, like, Okay, if that situation is happening, she's in a stirred up state of mind is temporary. But she's crazy in that moment, or what was the other way? You're crazy in that moment. So one of you is temporarily insane acting and behaving badly. The other person in this scenario hasn't lost their mind yet, which is good. And it's like, oh, boy, what do I do in the face of somebody that's doing that? Like, based on what you understand about it's temporary? She's gonna come back to her senses? What makes sense to you?

Mateo: 2:46

I don't know. Cuz it sounds really good. Just to be like, Hey, you know, why don't we take a break from this. But, you know, the narrative I already have built up in my head is tried that and, and sometimes it doesn't work out as well. Sometimes it really does. But other times, it's like, hey, yeah, I'm really cold. But I'm still really pissed off. And I'm going to show you that I'm pissed off, right? Yeah.

Rohini Ross: 3:09

And that's the non neutral.

Mateo: 3:11

That's like the non neutral kind of psychotic, like, smile on your face, but really raging and Oh, God, right. So I'm trying to figure out how we both don't run into that situation where it's like, Hey, I can totally tell that you're, you're scrambled. Why don't we Why don't we hit but I also don't want to say that and, you know, cuz you're like, Oh, my God, he's just using this or she's just using this as a as a way to not have this conversation right now.

Angus Ross: 3:41

I cannot Can I say something? I kind of know what you're getting at? In a sense. You were asking for like an improvisational moment. Yeah, you would actually try it on for size. Like in this moment? What do you think your wisdom would be prompting you to do if faced with that situation?

Mateo: 3:57

Well, I'm really hope I'm really hopeful. It's not going to happen.

Rohini Ross: 4:00

It's probably gonna happen.

Angus Ross: 4:03

definitely happen!

Mateo: 4:03

I don't want not even a narrative at this moment. But I don't want what is taking place in the past to occur.

Rohini Ross: 4:11

Yeah. So can I just say, one of the things that occurs to me is that if you keep it to your experience, so you don't even need to talk about the other person, because that is when someone is upset. Like, if I say to Angus, you're in a low mood, and he's in a low mood as I'm not a low mood, you know, it's like, the typical answer. And the same for me if that happens in my world, so so that's not a good route to go. Absolutely. But if you're speaking to your own experience, it's like if Angus is in a low mood, and I'm getting like, if I'm totally fine, I won't even need to say anything about it. But if he's really angry and upset, and I'm starting to get destabilized because I can't, you know, I'm not able to handle it, and I can just speak to that. So I'm not able to handle that. Right. Like I need to go settle my mind. I'm not feeling okay. So it doesn't have to be anything to do with him. It could be all to do with I'm taking care of myself and sorry, not able to have this conversation now I'm just not it's not going to go well. And so but I want to have it now we can believe it walking away. Not that he would say that. I'll be one saying that to him. It would be like, Yeah, well, you know that she's gonna stabilize, she's lost her mind. You can't take what she's saying seriously.

Alicia: 5:20

I think it's also...

Mateo: 5:21

scary. I feel like it's gonna happen, like in a cartoon, right? Yeah,

Alicia: 5:29

but you're making a narrative.

Mateo: 5:30

right? No, no, I know. It's like, hey, she's freaking out. Yellow ran on my Hey, I understand. Let me let me go away for a little bit. And let me like, allow me to get away so that we can both be in a neutral mood, right, I close the door. There's a cartoon, professional cartoon.

Alicia: 5:55

I think it just kind of one of those things. I think we both have been now awakened to this higher power of mind and recognizing these little triggers. I don't think that both of us did not know that at all previous to coming into this. So I think that's something that now we'll both be a little bit more aware of. I think also, potentially, the approach could be like, maybe in the sense of like, you know what, I do want to have this conversation, but I'm not in a good mood right now. So maybe we revisit this and like a different portion. Because if you're making me upset, or Well, you can't do that. But

Rohini Ross: 6:27

if you think he is, yeah,

Alicia: 6:29

yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if I'm starting to get stirred up by whatever you're doing, I could just be like, you know, what, I'm in a really bad mood. But I do want to talk to you about this, but let me go take that out or something, something of those lines that we, we bring back a neutral state or the like, whatever you're doing is just making me like grr, but you're not but it's now me and my thoughts. I have to just be like, Okay, I'm gonna pause for a second and go watch Housewives or something. and then like, destabilize my mind.

Mateo: 7:01

I'm more feeling like feelings of trepidation come when it's, you're going to be having a mood. And I noticed that you're not pulling away from the current state. And I want to, and, you know, you get angry at me, like when I say, you know, like, I hear you, like, I understand, you're saying, No, I know what you're doing to me, you know, you say, hear me, but you know, right, like, I'm trying to avoid escalation of situation. And I do many times, you know, say, Hey, we're probably not the best right now to have these conversations yet, keeps pushing to have those conversations, I've been using the phrase, like poking the Buddha, like, I'm trying to be very neutral, and be like, you know, I don't want to do this. And it's not being dismissive. For me, it's more, let's have the conversation when, you know, we're both even keel, right. And I tried to back out of it, and it's not backing out, like I want to run away, but it's backing out, like, Hey, I understand right now, the conversation is probably not the best time to be had. I just don't want you to get upset when, you know, I do pull away in those moments. And I don't want you to think that I'm just running away from my problems. It's running away from the intensity of the problem when I know it can be handled at a different level.

Alicia: 8:22

I completely agree with you, I think that prevented this, like, I was not open to that. And when we went through, you know, premarital counseling before we got married, one of the things that like was told us like, say that I hear us or I understand you and like that, to me was a trigger, because I'm like, are you really listening? It's, it's no, it's like fake. And so I think now my mind is a little bit more open and more accepting to perhaps the way you approach that this time around. Because now that I understand that how my mind kind of works and the complexities of it, is that I'm already just listening to noise, but trying to be neutral, and it's not really work. And so what we've discussed is just like when I go through that, like remember that I'm overthinking remember that I'm being crazy, just take your hands off the wheel and just be like, Alright, you know, when you've got a point, let's let's discuss this later. And let's discuss this in more neutral state of mind, because I am upset right now. And I'm getting angered by whatever, and I'm allowing those angry feelings to come through. So it's just, it's gonna be, like we said, it's a learning curve. And it's going to be practice and there's going to be slip ups and there's going to be moments, but to try to reel it back as back as quickly as possible to bounce back in a positive state i think is going to be the most positive way that we grow and build on it.

Rohini Ross: 9:31

Yeah. So what I hear you saying is that you didn't see this before you didn't see the wisdom crunches way of doing it before now, I see that Oh, actually, that's a good idea. So that means far more the time Alicia be like yeah, you're right. But not always. So I want to point that out, not always and what I would say if you still have the wisdom to step back, even though she doesn't like it, step back. She will be fine. This is a big concern of Mateo. And he brings it up several times in a few different ways. And he's really not trusting that Alicia has seen something that's going to shift her behavior. And he's also not trusting himself, that he's going to be able to access his own wisdom in the moment. And so here he is, again, looking for the How To Guide.

Angus Ross: 10:28

Yes, it didn't take long for the need for the How To Guide to be demanded. But is obviously thinking about his experience leading up to this point, I think he's probably used that very technique, if you like, it's been weaponized in a way where he's probably used it to his advantage. So if he doesn't like what he's hearing, or like how at least you're showing up, then he kind of gets to batten down the hatches, but still be in a place of righteousness and judgment. So it's gonna be a whole different ballgame to be able to see it from a vantage point where he can suggest that neutrally, rather than it be a case of like, you know, I'm not talking to you now. And it'd be more of an FU, rather than a case of just looking after himself or looking after her too. It's like, if he can get to a place of compassion and see, see that she's suffering, that's what's key, and not take that personally, then he can withdraw. But if it's a case of like, No, you've lost the plot. And he has a lot of judgment for that, that she's gonna feel that no uncertain terms. And probably, I imagine there have been many a situation in the past where that's been the dynamic that's played out.

Rohini Ross: 11:49

Yeah, that's a really important point about the judgment. Because our partners can feel that judgment. And it doesn't typically go well, if they're having a hard time. But most importantly, we're the ones suffering when we're identifying with our judgmental thoughts. We're creating suffering for ourselves. So it doesn't help the relationship. But it also doesn't do us any good either.

Angus Ross: 12:12

Yeah, no, exactly. And I think if he's coming from that place of judgment, and I imagine, I don't know, I have a sneaking suspicion that the general dynamic would be, oh, you, you've lost the plot here, I've got the higher ground. And I'm going to walk away and probably inflame the situation in no uncertain terms. Whereas he's coming from a place of understanding of compassion can see that she's caught up and suffering, then she'll have, she'll have an entirely different experience. They both will.

Rohini Ross: 12:46

Absolutely, well, let's see where he gets to.

Mateo: 12:55

Yeah, I just don't want anything, you know, hurtful being said in those moments when I'm walking out the door to go take the dog out and like steak and take a break. Because, like I said, a lot of hurtful stuff gets like curled around. And it's not what we're here for is, you know, to be okay with the barrage of insults. And so, so, I just wanted to be okay. And I really, I mean, I'm really excited, but I'm also very afraid. I'm not shouldn't be right, because nothing's occurred yet, but talking about this, you know, losing the tolerance, right, this tolerance that you've built up and it becomes more intense, because you lose the tolerance. I'm kind of like, Whoa, shit, like if we built the tolerance for the past like seven years and you know, we remove that tolerance game I know what has taken place in the passing God knows what's gonna happen, you know?

Rohini Ross: 14:00

But the tolerance is not that you've lost your tolerance for her behavior, it's actually you've lost a tolerance for your own stirred up mind. So in that situation, it's quite possible that if you're really you know, not buying into your narrative, not in your story that she she could be doing her thing and you could be feeling like, yeah, it's a good idea to leave it, you're not even necessarily upset by it, because you're not taking it personally. You see, like, Oh, she's really just not okay, right now she's suffering and her behaviors that have nothing to do with me, it's a reflection of her suffering in this moment. She's not always going to be suffering. And so you go walk the dog and she's doing whatever she's doing, but when, when it's not taken personally, it doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt. So I'm not and I was really clear with Alicia, that I was not about condoning bad behavior. So an Angus and I are not here to you know, say it's a free for all. We absolutely encourage each of you to be your best selves, which means to not behave badly, but we also aware that at times. And my sense is based on what you both seen, that will be a lot less frequently. But at times, we're not perfect, we behaved badly, I make mistakes, you know, Alicia's gonna make mistakes, you're gonna make mistakes, that's life. But with this understanding, it actually has less impact, because the more that you can see, your suffering comes from, it's not what she's saying, is what you're doing with your head with what she's saying. Right? So if Angus calls me a bitch, he doesn't call me a bitch. But let's say he was to call me a bitch...

Angus Ross: 15:33

Sometimes i think it.

Rohini Ross: 15:36

But let's say let's say he says it. If I'm in a really good state of mind, I'll be like, God, what's going on with him that he's so stirred up like, it wouldn't even hurt. If I'm in a bad state of mind, he could say something nice to me. And I, you know, be off to the races. I can't believe you said that. But it but it's all about my state of mind. It's got nothing to do with his behavior. And this is where this understanding had a huge impact on me because I used to be super sensitive to his irritability and anger. And I would take it very personally. And it would just be this escalation, because he might be a little irritated. But I would take it personally. And that would escalate, and then he would escalate, and then I would escalate, and then, you know, we're off to the races. So then what happened? Yeah, it's pretty much what happened. But what happened when I saw this for myself, the first time is I realized I Oh, I, I don't feel him. I feel my own thinking. And it's not like he's doing something to me. It's I'm like you said, I'm doing this to myself. And what it and and in that sort of taking the pressure off, I just dropped into a more stable state inside of myself. And so the next time that he, you know, got mad at me over something. It wasn't that knee jerk reaction of like, I can't believe you're getting mad at me. It was like, Oh, he's not okay. Like, it wasn't anything to do with me. It's like, Oh, he's just not okay. In this moment, like camera what I said to you, but I said something that was really there, and you're like, What the hell's going on with her. But it was like, it changes the experience, because you see it more clearly. It's like, you see her state of mind. And when you see it's her state of mind, it's not personal anymore. Like, it's she's suffering, if she's, and this is hypothetical, not giving you permission to behave badly. But if she's behaving badly, and you just see it's her state of mind, and she's suffering, it's got nothing to do with you. Not that you have to stay there and you know, be on the receiving end of it. But you don't feel bad, because you just you might even I felt compassion. He was yelling at me. And I felt compassion for him. Oh, he's not okay, right now? Because that's not her natural state. That's not how she is, unless she's kind of losing her mind in that moment.

Angus Ross: 18:01

Yeah, yes. So he's already talked about doing risk analysis for a living. And you can start to see where he's already starting to turn over in his mind, all of the possible scenarios that he might have to face in the future, based on experiences and you know, that he can drum up from the past. So I guess that's where is that where the mistrust lies? Is it or is it just that's just how his mind works? That's just how he lives and operate looking at looking at it from the risk analysis vantage point. So I guess you can see where he's not willing to fully trust it yet. He's seen something for sure. But it is a little bit, I guess, it's hard not to, for me to be a little bit disappointed based on the insight that really has just unfolded, that he's already now starting to question. But that's just maybe how his mind works and operates.

Rohini Ross: 18:59

Well, that's the learning curve. Like we said, there's no magic bullet, he's going to have that insight be revealed to him over time, and it will deepen and expand. And you're right, he's gone back into his default mode and is trying to figure things out ahead of time. And it's coming from a good place he wants it to work out he's just feeling insecure. And he's going to what he's familiar with which is his intellect to try and figure that out.

Angus Ross: 19:25

Yeah. And any wants to weigh he wants to really come away with this is all done and dusted. This is behind this. Now we're good to go. And, and it's more a case of I you know, we've just given you maybe some some pointers in terms of how to how to live your life in a more effective way where challenges will emerge. And we're just giving you the technology if you'd like to be able to weather those storms as and when they appear.

Rohini Ross: 19:52

Yeah, more gracefully, gracefully. And I want to emphasize that The point that I was making here is not a point that is condoning hurtful or abusive behavior. I do What do you do if,you know, this one's faking being level headed. believe that when we see that the the person who is behaving in a hurtful way, when we see that it's their state of mind. And that it's not personal, that that is incredibly liberating and empowering and helpful. And that's been my personal experience, because I used to be so hurt by your behavior, and your anger was something that I took very personally. And so when I was able to recognize that that was just a reflection of your state of mind, that was really liberating for me. But I want to emphasize that we're never going to say that somebody needs to stay in a situation where the partner is behaving, and hurtful ways that that's the decision of the person in the relationship. And what I'll also say is that when we're able to not take it personally, I think it's easier for people to have clarity on what the right action is, what the most self honoring choices, and if that is to leave the relationship, there'll be a whole lot more clear. understanding what's really a play. And so, Mateo is still in his questioning mode.

Mateo: 21:43

Someone could be very psycho and have a smile and be like, Yeah, definitely. Okay. Right.

Rohini Ross: 21:57

You could say I'm not ready. And I don't like I want to acknowledge what you said, Alicia is like she has a whole different appreciate because we talked about neutral. We talked about money, we talked about this. And we talked about how we can think we're neutral, and we're nowhere near neutral. So she's going to be getting better at being honest with herself about what neutral is, right? Like, that's just you getting more clearly Oh, I thought I was neutral. But I wasn't neutral. So that's her learning curve, too. So everything that you're have concerns about, she's had insights about we've talked about these specific things, that even you having to say that we've we've addressed them. And she's seeing something differently. Yeah, no, I'm not making this up. So. So she's like, recognizing that, oh, maybe I thought it was neutral, but I wasn't neutral. And like we've talked about what does neutral really feel like? How do you know when you're neutral? So she's got more of a sense of that. We've talked about how it does make sense to start the conversation when one of you is destabilized. And it's a good thing to do. Because it's just a reflection of that state of mind. And only thing is going to happen is escalation from there. So there was no argument for her on any of those things. Like she completely saw the logic in it, it makes sense to her something that's accomplished, right? So you're using it differently. So before you were like, wait, you know, like,

Alicia: 23:29

I want to nip it in the bud.

Rohini Ross: 23:30

Exactly. So now it's like different reaction.

Mateo: 23:32

Reactivity in the butt.

Angus Ross: 24:08

Throw into that equation that we we talked at length about, you know, there's nothing that she can do really to make you suffer, it's only your own thinking, right? So the combination, put all that together, we should be hopefully moving in a very good direction.

Mateo: 24:23

Yeah, I like I said, I'm really excited. I, you know, like I said before, I like having your redirections right. I want steps, you know, one through 10. And I know that also not, right? That's also a different narrative that you're building inside your mind. But it's innate within me to be prepared.

Rohini Ross: 24:42

Exactly. That's it. And that's why it's not really about us telling you what to do. Even though we've given examples. It's about you seeing that you have that innate knowing that it's gonna be right there in the moment and when you have a certain level of understanding that knowing matches that understanding so You knew all along, but it wasn't good to engage from that place. So that's not going to go away. But you're also going to have more understanding now about how to not take her behavior personally.

Mateo: 25:12

Well, it's like, I just see it playing out where she's tripping and I'm on the couch like she gonna get in real life. She's not gonna look at me and just laugh.

Rohini Ross: 25:41

He finally got there in the end, where he saw that it's innate within him to be prepared. Like he all of a sudden, realize that he has it within himself. And I think that's great.

Angus Ross: 25:54

Now the force is strong in this one. I get does that make me Obi Wan Kenobi? Oh, Yoda.

Rohini Ross: 26:06

Yoda might be above your paygrade.

Angus Ross: 26:08

Probably more Jabba the Hutt.

Rohini Ross: 26:12

That's terrible. No, you're my Luke Skywalker.

Angus Ross: 26:16

Oh, thank you. Yeah, well, you're my princess Leia in any day of the week? Well, yeah, no, I think what for me is is so prevalent now as this is really, as this is the levity, that obviously is very apparent, and that there's this beautiful feeling between them. And we get to witness them kind of joking around with each other in a way where there is a lot of profundity in that joking around, they've obviously seen something, and can see how this can work. And I think that, you know, let's hope this becomes this wonderful reference point for the moving forward, that they can get along. Who knew?

Rohini Ross: 26:59

Yeah, that's right. Well, so now we're gonna have a little storytime with Angus.

Angus Ross: 27:05

Oh, Can I tell the story about when I was doing the apprenticeship with the Pransky's? Basically spent four days having these kind of conversations being told about you know, how she can't be responsible for anything that you feel inside. That's all down to you. And I'm like, Okay, that sounds kind of simple. That's not really how it works. But something was progressively landing over those four days, by couldn't kind of put quite put my finger on it. Although George our mentor would say that I saw something in the first session. That kind of feels a little bit like hyperbole to me, but I think he probably was right. I think I wasn't really that conscious of what was going on, I was hearing something but at a different level than I could grasp a hold off with my intellect. So when we got back home, we were home for a week, and we were just getting on like a house on fire. Everything was just beautiful. We're just getting on so well. So perfectly connected. In my mind, it was just great. Our marriage had not been in such a good place for as long as I could remember. And then I think it was on maybe the second week, there was one day and something I don't know, I was probably in a really, really low mood, you were probably too in a low mood, it was the perfect storm. And just the shit really hit the fan in no uncertain terms. And I just like got more and more escalated. And, and it got to this point where it started in the afternoon and went on into the evening, we went to bed, we slept on it, we hadn't made up and then I wake up in the morning, I'm testing the water, we're still in the same place. Sucks. I remember going into the kitchen, and I'm just about to leave to go to work. And then I thought I gotta go back in. I'm going to have you know, my last kind of a bit of a last word freak. I'm going to go in and have my say and I'm like, and I'm really angry, but I kind of scripted in my mind what I was going to say to her so Im going to go into the foot of the bed and just, like started delivering all this vitriol about how, look what we're doing, like, you know, you've invested all this money in more sort of psychological snake oil. And we're exactly the same place where like, and literally as I started to articulate, you know what I wanted to say, I just suddenly had this sort of really weird out of the box experience. It's the only way I can describe it where I'm just like this just like I just saw he was I can't even remember how this started. I don't remember what we're fighting about. But yet here I am. There's my body. I'm looking at me just spewing out all this vomit on my wife. And it just felt first of all it felt nonsensical and then I kind of like it just felt just totally it just felt just completely. I don't know how to define it, it just felt wrong. It just didn't sit. This just didn't sit right with me. It was so much the antithesis of my well being. It was almost like I suddenly took the needle off the record, was looking at it from the perspective of this understanding and a feeling of well being. And just seeing this total asshole vomiting all over his wife, and I just spontaneously burst into tears. Because it really reminded me what you were saying, like my wife might laugh in that situation. But in the sense that might happen. For me, it was just like, I just suddenly just saw how ridiculous it was. And I actually, I think what came up to me was just this sort of overwhelming sense of sadness. But here's a woman that I really love. And I'm just behaving like a total deck based on this really crazy narrative that I've built up, which I can't even remember why, yeah, it was not so as possibly possible.

Rohini Ross: 31:10

Well, that was one of the defining moments in our relationship were in the heat of the moment, all of a sudden, you connected with your own conscience, and everything shifted. And I had no idea what was going on, for you. But I think that that's what happens when we spend more time experiencing our true nature, allowing ourselves to be rewarded by it, we get into the feeling of well being, and those deeper feelings of love and compassion, and anything that's not that all of a sudden becomes a whole lot less tolerable to us. And it's much easier to drop back into that experience of well being. And look at that behavior, like you said, from a vantage point, like you're outside of yourself and realize, just the ridiculousness of it all.

Angus Ross: 32:08

Yeah, listening to me retell that story, which I have told 1000 times now. It never gets old for me. And it does, you know, I use that I use that metaphor of taking the needle off the record, which apart from anything else, I guess, that shows my age,

Rohini Ross: 32:27

Record players are cool now, I guess,

Angus Ross: 32:28

Record plays are cool. So I'm quite a hipster. Really, that's, it did feel like that. And I guess it was as if I'd stumbled into a higher level of consciousness, and found myself really looking down on this crazy person screaming at their wife. And it just felt completely out of sync. With my essential nature, that's, that's the best way to describe it. And not necessarily big that could listen to it at the time. But that's what's going down. I was tepping into the reality of who I really am, at my core. A d that was really not this is nu case who's got really consumed b some deep groove habitual t inking about how I'm supposed t react if and react in these s tuations, which is kind of li e the deep grooves of my own, my own record my own disk, if y u like. And so it's very aprop that that metaphor for pull ng the needle off the record, b cause that's, just not who I am from that state. And I guess, hopefully, it can be def ned as a state of higher consci usness, I can pull that needle o f the record.

Rohini Ross: 33:43

And we all can, I think that's what's really helpful and important for everybody to see is that we're not limited by our condition thinking that we have the capacity to zoom out, get perspective on it. And the way that we do that is we connect more deeply with our impersonal nature. We allow ourselves to drop out of our personal thinking and drop into that deeper part of ourselves that has a different vantage point.

Angus Ross: 34:10

Yeah, that's beautiful.

Rohini Ross: 34:12

And that's what Matteo is doing here in this next segment.

Mateo: 34:21

Every time you bring up trying to plan something, it's like, oh, my God, this guy? Well, it's because I've, I've, we've probably had one instance in the past where you asked me a question, I knew that you are anchoring that question with what is the state of our relationship, right? So every time then you asked me, hey, let's, let's go do something or would you like to go here? I'm like, Oh, my God. She's trying to figure out what the state of our relationship is. She's anchoring these questions to figure out Hey, is he willing to do this thing with me in the future, knowing where our relationship is right now, when in actuality he could have just been asking Do you want to go to Italy at some point, right? Exactly. Yeah, there, there probably was a mixture of those but me approaching and following the narrative that every time you ask me you want to do something and thinking directly into that and falling back into that tunnel. This is probably not good at all right? Yeah. It's like, then there's like this fear on your end of like, I hope I can ask him what he wants for dinner. I also created this feeling for you that you had to walk on eggshells. And but it was mostly in my head that I, you know, I use this one instance, where like, you use a question to anchor, you know, the state of our well being and our relationship. And I just, you know, I use that one. Yeah, that one narrative across everything now. Right. So I'm getting rid of that. But, yeah, so I definitely want to apologize for that. Because that's, you know, something that I know really weighed heavily on her, she doesn't go anywhere. Like, you know, even though my birthday, she's like, Hey, can we can I make reservations? Don't ask me about reservations right now. Right? It's, it's like work. So for me now, one instance, it was like, Hey, I don't know, the time I'm getting off work. But at the same time, you know, I still felt that whatever anti gave you it was gonna be an anchoring question to the state of our relationship. And so I really want to apologize for that, it did create a lot of shit in our relationship that creates the shit show. Yeah. And that's the big, big part, my fault for sure.

Angus Ross: 36:48

So for the benefit of the listener, I think it would be worthwhile to maybe take a look at what he means by these anchoring questions. Because I remember being confused by this at the time. So my understanding is that these anchoring questions visa v. I don't know, let's use the example of like, what are we going to do for dinner tonight? Or what are we going to do on your birthday? Somehow suggest that she is looking for a descriptor of their relationship in respect to whatever answer he's going to give? I don't know. I'd love to get your feedback on that. Because I feel like I want a little bit more clarification.

Rohini Ross: 37:30

Well, what I think he's saying is that at least you would ask him these questions as a fishing expedition to see if he was going to be with her on his birthday. And so if she asked him, would you like to go to Italy? It was a fishing expedition to see if he was going to say yes, because then that would mean he would stay with her and go to Italy together.

Angus Ross: 37:53

Right? Well, he should have said fishing. shouldn't be talking about dropping anchor.

Rohini Ross: 37:59

I think he felt anchored by questions.

Angus Ross: 38:03

Oh, well, I would like I think he should have maybe it should be more of a ball and chain put round is.

Rohini Ross: 38:07

Yes, I think that's right.

Angus Ross: 38:10

So I was confused by that metaphor, anyway. Well, thank you.

Rohini Ross: 38:15

I'm glad you cleared that up. Is there anything else?

Angus Ross: 38:18

I think we can move on from there.

Rohini Ross: 38:19

Well, I do want to comment on the fact that he connected with his conscience. And he actually felt empathy for Alicia and recognize that because of how he was behaving, that she felt like she had to walk on eggshells around him, because she didn't know what she could ask him what was okay, what wasn't okay. So for me, that was really significant that he had opened up in that way to have empathy for her.

Angus Ross: 38:47

Yeah. And it was a very touching moment. And it also, I realized that in one of our sessions, he actually asked me if he should apologize. And I didn't want to find myself in a situation where I was leading the witness, I felt like this is something that needs to show up organically. So I remember prompting him to just to be followed by his wisdom. And if that feels appropriate, then absolutely. But I certainly didn't encourage him to do that. So it did. It did show up organically. And it showed up in a really beautiful way. So it was it was really wonderful to witness that.

Rohini Ross: 39:21

Yeah, it was.

Mateo: 39:32

I mean, the thing that's sort of our problems, right, yeah. We're creating this narrative, maybe a piece of it is from truth. But we're now elongating the story to consumer ourselves. Yeah.

Angus Ross: 39:45

Yeah. And then the issue is, along with that narrative becomes the comes along or physiology becomes the feeling. Yeah, actually, you know, lead to health issues and all kinds of problems.

Mateo: 39:55

Yeah, absolutely.

Angus Ross: 39:56

Yeah, things that are detrimental to our well being.

Rohini Ross: 39:59

Yeah, so being able to see kind of the universal nature of what we're talking about helps with everything helps with anxiety, we talked about anxiety helps with anxiety helps with depression helps with communication, like there's not one area of life where, where we don't feel our thinking. So of course, this understanding is going to be applicable across the board. I hear both saying, like, we got to go live our life now and see how this lands and see what sticks. And the follow up sessions are really there to help you integrate what you've seen. And make sure that it's landing and sticking in day to day life. If you're struggling, or you know, if you're having a hard time you have our email. So just reach out, don't wait, if you're having if something goes wrong. And you're like, Well, that was a waste of time, like reach out before because it's usually just a little course correction. That's even I'm not saying that's going to happen. But I don't want you to feel it. Oh, let's wait and save that for two weeks.

Mateo: 40:54

Really weird. I don't even think of that could even happen.

Rohini Ross: 40:58

Yeah, that's great. I love that.

Angus Ross: 40:59

Oh, my goodness me what a far cry from that very first session where they were completely polarized. He's now saying, I can't imagine there being any kind of imagine there being any problems from here on out or words to that effect. That's extraordinary. And obviously, we've done our best to caution in that respects. But that's not particularly likely. But how beautiful that that there has been this 180 and that, you know, I mean, the divorce papers were drawn up, and look where we are now. I'm sure in his wildest dreams, he couldn't imagine himself being in this place in this mindset, this point.

Rohini Ross: 41:51

Yeah, there's a really beautiful space that they've dropped into. And we talk about that a little bit more in this next section.

Angus Ross: 41:56

Yeah. They took the needle off the record. I'm struck by that seems like yeah, you guys now. I think that's that's the sweet spot. You know, once we recognize that good feeling, and we live our lives from that place everything. Yeah, just looks so much better.

Mateo: 42:20

Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why we got together and why we've stuck with each other, even through all the turbulence. You know, we've been wanting that taste of that, like, Oh, my God, you know, like, this is the person there's glimpses of that, but I think this way we can actually, this can be the norm, right? Not those glimpses at the norm. Exactly. Bullshit can become this. Who cares, right? Yeah, that's sweet.

Rohini Ross: 42:50

Yeah, I love that. It's a flip. It's like this becomes a norm. And yeah, there's a little bit of bullshit. That's part of being human. We're all human. We're not perfect. And it's like, man, I can roll with that.

Mateo: 43:00

Yeah.

Alicia: 43:01

I mean, I know, I'm super like, excited now. And I feel like I told you last night, like, I feel like we've been given such a blessing. Like, I feel like everybody should go through this process, whether they have an issue or not, because not only do you get a sounder, like feeling of yourself and knowing yourself, but then how to even deal with everybody in your life, and then how to just make your household alone, just its happy pot, and know that there's going to be issues at times, but doesn't have to be that and you can just be excited and be newlyweds for forever. In a sense.

Mateo: 43:32

Yeah, there's gonna be issues, but you don't they create a long life narrative around that one issue. And yeah, it's it does, you don't have to be in a relationship to go through it. It is, it sounds so easy, something you should teach in school.

Angus Ross: 43:53

There is people doing that

Mateo: 43:54

There's a lot of mental health that can probably be corrected or even avoided by this, this type of approach to life. And it's just thought, whoa, what if I learned this 15 years ago? Like what would life be like? Like, whoa, I'm imagining, like, that's 15 years old, he gets to go through this and goes to college without this negative narrative that he's building up in his mind. Imagine like, what could be achieved? It's just like, Whoa, what am I? What happened?

Angus Ross: 44:31

You used the word innocence. But I think that, that's kind of key in a sense is if you actually think about kids, young kids, they have their moments of imbalance and they get all upset and then like two seconds later, they're way back back in. Anything seriously, somehow that kind of gets programmed differently as we go through all the lessons or whatever

Alicia: 44:58

I think are so conditioned to things like we discuss like you're conditioned to think negatively, sometimes you're conditioned to think that things are going wrong when they're actually not.

Angus Ross: 45:11

Well, I guess what's really wonderful here is that is how they're excited to see how what they've learned in this experience is going to be beneficial to them in all other areas of their lives.

Rohini Ross: 45:26

Yeah, it's really powerful when people can generalize and start putting the dots together for themselves. That's one of the signs that I look forward to see if they're integrating what's being shared that they're now making references to see how it will help in all relationships, not just their relationship. I think that's what we've been pointing to throughout this whole podcast, not just to them, but to everyone who's listening is that there is that space within have wisdom, of intuition of knowing that we all have accessible and available to us. But what happens is we get caught up in our personal thinking and in the stories that we've created, and the condition limited thoughts of our mind, and we forget to listen to that deeper place within ourselves. And that's what we're pointing to in terms of the rewilding to allow ourselves to listen deeply. And to let that flourish within us.

Angus Ross: 46:22

Yeah, I mean, maybe it is the greatest, greatest validation that this is all working as they start to see it in those terms in a very universal way.

Rohini Ross: 46:32

Absolutely. We're gonna take segments and put it together in a podcast format, so that more people can learn this understanding and so that less people suffer. So really very grateful you're willing to participate,.

Mateo: 46:50

We are more grateful to you guys than you. I can measure that.

Rohini Ross: 46:58

Know, thank you. Because this, you know, like, you're saying, we want to make a difference in the world. And this is one of the ways that we can, we can't work with that we can only work with a certain number of people, but this is how we can impact more lives. And in a way that's free.

Alicia: 47:14

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I said from the start is if it can help other people, not go through what we went through or how correct it like, I'm so willing to do so because I feel like everybody goes through marital issues, everybody goes through relationship issues. And so it's so important to kind of course correct and realize, like where you are going wrong, and I think if this can help, even one person, I think it's done its job tenfold.

Mateo: 47:41

I think it will, and I don't think person needs to be in relationships or anything. It's just, it's our innate within us to protect ourselves, which is create stories of knowing how to handle the mugger, right, walking behind you, all these different things and and that does affect people's lives. And just being able to release, you know, any preconceived notions or, you know, play out that you've created in your mind, I think is just very blissful, freeing, liberating. Yeah, there we go.

Angus Ross: 48:20

It would be easy to think that we have reached that Hollywood ending, or the sentimental ending that I always wanted. But we're not done yet. Maybe it's more of a more of a miniseries rather than a movie where everything is very tightly wrapped up at the end, because we haven't gotten to that point yet. But nevertheless, I don't really want to finish here without saying how incredible it is, in terms of where they have come to, and what they've seen, and all that they have learned. And this beautiful feeling that they've really found themselves in a very short period of time, when you consider that that feeling has not been part of the equation, probably for many months, borne out by the fact that divorce papers were drawn up. And there was really little room for recovery as far as they could see it as far as Mateo could see it anyway. Where they are now is just it's flabbergasting. I haven't used that word for probably I don't know. I don't know if I've ever used that word. But I'm using it now. I am flabbergasted.

Rohini Ross: 49:34

Well, I too want to acknowledge them because where they got to really demonstrates their willingness, their clarity of intention, their open mindedness, their open heartedness, they really showed up authentically, honestly, and we're open to having a shift and it was really beautifully demonstrated and what they share

Angus Ross: 50:01

Yeah, and I guess now it's kind of like as we see it, they are baby rewilders, and we have put on their baby harness that going out into the big wide world. And we're gonna be there to reel them in from time to time, because inevitably, they are going to have challenges. And I think it's easy to sort of get caught up in the moment and see that there's no possibility of there going to be another challenge in science. But I would say watch this space, and we're here to hold their hand as it were.

Rohini Ross: 50:34

Or what I would say is that the work that we did an intensive, I think, opened up a level of honesty and truth. And in that space, whatever needs to be healed and resolved is going to show up. And so as much as they ended on a high note, they also created a space for truth to come in. And there were still things that were unresolved at this point that we hadn't addressed.

Angus Ross: 50:58

Yeah. And that truth isn't always going to be that friendly, or that comfortable. And so yeah, there's still work to be done here.

Rohini Ross: 51:08

Yeah, growth in consciousness isn't always comfortable. It usually rarely is.

Angus Ross: 51:12

That's true. And you know, and as I see it, growth in consciousness really comes it's like resistance training, we're not going to really learn unless we come up against challenge. So I think it would be foolish or folly to think that, you know, we're going to go through the rest of our lives without challenge and not come up against resistance. Absolutely. And that's our growing edge.

Rohini Ross: 51:34

So to be continued more to come. And also, Angus and I are going to be doing some ask us anything, podcast episodes. And so we invite you to send us your questions about the podcast, about relationships in general, or anything else that you'd like to know. And you can send them in to us via email, at info@therewilders.org. Or if you'd like to send in your question anonymously, we have a voicemail that you can leave your questions on and I'm just going to look that out right now.

Angus Ross: 52:12

And I would encourage you if you have any really difficult questions to address them to Rohini

Rohini Ross: 52:21

The voicemail number is 424-272-6497. That's 424-272-6497. And if you leave it on the voicemail, we could also include your voice in the podcast, so that would be kind of nice. So we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to know more about what you're getting out of the series, but we definitely want to make sure that we're answering any questions that you have.

Angus Ross: 52:51

That's wonderful, not much more to be said at this point.

Rohini Ross: 52:53

All right. Until the next time