Awaken to Love

EP13: Relationship on the Rocks

• Angus & Rohini Ross • Season 1 • Episode 13

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 52:47

The Rewilders meet separately with Alicia and Mateo for follow up sessions after they've returned home from the intensive. At first, things sound resoundingly positive on both ends. Mateo has found massive success getting through to his team at work by incorporating what he learned about state of mind and presence. And Alicia is successful with not being reactive especially before holding important conversations with Mateo.

One might assume Mateo has been benefitting from Alicia's calmer state at home, but he reveals to Angus that in actuality he's experiencing fairly severe and chronic anxiety, especially at home. He may appear "cool as a cucumber on the outside" but he's "hotter than a tamale on the inside." This has major implications for their relationship.

Angus shares one of his sure-fire barometers for his own level of anxiety; the degree to which he can handle Rohini's finger chewing (in other words, Rohini's anxiety). In the past, Angus wasn't able to bear Rohini's anxiety at all because he couldn't bear his own. But since taking his thinking less seriously and cultivating more presence in their relationship, he's typically able to handle Rohini's finger-chewing quite well, except for the times he isn't, which he now knows to be a reflection of his own state of mind rather than something lacking in Rohini.

This episode explores:

  • Our innate resilience when in touch with our true nature
  • New, experiential reference points created during intensives
  • The power of being genuinely present with another human being
  • The impact of anxiety on relationships

Show Notes
Befuddlement: Angus's perplexed feeling wondering how to ask people to stay tuned.
A turn-up, not turnip: A surprise
Projection 101: The first course on the act of projecting / the cause of Angus's judgment of Rohini's finger-chewing
Listen to this space: Another way of saying, tune in next week for Episode 14, when more on Alicia and Mateo's relationship developments will be revealed.

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 13 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org
To leave questions and comments for Ask Anything Episodes Call: (424) 272-6497

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. 

Angus Ross:

Welcome to rewilding love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross:

This is Episode 13. Relationship on the rocks.

Alicia:

The conversation ended with us laughing and giggling

Angus Ross:

Oh, my goodness me seem quite the roller coaster ride.

Rohini Ross:

What am I hearing is that you're not taking things personally. If he gets snappy, you're able to see Well, that's his state of mind in the moment,

Angus Ross:

it would appear. The sheen of wisdom has not worn off yet, from their experiences intensive.

Alicia:

It's been very peaceful, very calm.

Rohini Ross:

That's what happens when we spend more time experiencing our true nature, allowing herself to be rewarded by we get into the feeling of well being. And those deeper feelings of love and compassion, and anything that's not that all of a sudden becomes a whole lot less tolerable to us.

Mateo:

Honest thing is like no, she's a pain in the ass. Much better at like dealing with it.

Angus Ross:

Someone's got themselves into a low mood. He's hit the cliff face and he's tumbling

Mateo:

Until the cucumber on the outside inside on his How does it tamale?

Angus Ross:

I'm experiencing certain other befuddlement around this idea of listening to space. You are listening to rewilding love with me, Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross:

and me Rohini Ross

Angus Ross:

Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross:

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded, listen in as we guide a real couple back to their natural state of love,

Angus Ross:

Relax, and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross:

We're excited to let you know that we're going to be doing some ask anything podcast episodes. And so we'd love to hear from you. If you have any questions about the podcast about relationships in general, or any other questions that you'd like us to answer. We'd love for you to send them in. And so you can send them in via email to info at the rewilders.org info at the rewilding.org. Or if you'd like to send in your question anonymously. You can call your question 424-272-6497.

Angus Ross:

Okay, well, that's, that's another intensive in the bag. I wanted to help her get along in the big wide world,

Rohini Ross:

we now have to fledgling rewilded out there.

Angus Ross:

We do

Rohini Ross:

I think it's important to talk about the intensive experience just to give it some context in terms of where they're at in their journey. And so the reason why we have intensives in a retreat setting is because we recognize that when people get out of their day to day lives, and don't have those pressures on them, they tend to relax, their minds tend to settle quite quickly. And in that space, it's just natural that the feelings of well being and joy naturally come to the surface and are felt more clearly.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, there's a method to our madness, for sure. I have heard it said, and various trainings that we've done, and certainly in couples workshops, or intensives, where people will get up and share a couple get up and share. And they will lament the fact that they wish that their relationship could be how it is when they're on vacation. And they're on holiday, because they get on like a house on fire under those circumstances and those conditions, which is more grist for the mill, as far as we're concerned, because that just demonstrates that it's all about state of mind. So when they're in a relaxed, unsettled state of mind, they do get on like a house on fire. And they have perspective. And when they get out there into the big wide world and get sped up and, and unsettled as the case may be, as far as their state of mind is concerned, then they lose that perspective. So we are actually doing everything in our power to create a setting where all of that analytical machinery has plenty of room to slow down. And we try and engineer a settle state. And that's where we have the leverage that we're looking for, to get that couple to a place of how would I articulate this because I want to also be cognizant of the fact that we want to not have an agenda but in terms of helping that client or the client see what they need to see. It's much better that they be in a settled state of mind. So we're doing everything that we can to create that state

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, I don't know that I would use the word engineer because that sounds a lot, I know

Angus Ross:

you're gonna pick me up on that I tried to reel it back in late, you wouldn't let me

Rohini Ross:

I heard it. It didn't slip by me

Angus Ross:

Fell off that cliff ever so swiftly.

Rohini Ross:

Rather than engineering, we we set up a context that allows the natural state to come forward. How's that?

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that'll do for me, okay, what she said.

Rohini Ross:

And so, it's amazing how quickly shifts can happen. In the couples work that we do in an intensive setting and the individual intensives that we each do, it's really wonderful to see how flexible the mind is and how flexible we are that we can drop out of our thinking and come back to our natural state so easily. And as you've heard through listening, Matteo and Alicia are in an incredible space. At this point in time, Matteo can even imagine getting into the conflicts that they were having, as he was leaving the intensive.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, dare I say he might be guilty of getting a little bit cocky about what the future holds in store for him.

Rohini Ross:

And we're not gonna pop their bubble, because we don't know it could be a really smooth sailing ride. And sometimes it is, but often, after intensives why we have the follow up sessions is we recognize that it can be a bumpy reentry at times.

Angus Ross:

Yes, it can be a bumpy reentry at times. And I know that we want to do our best to send our couples off in a good feeling. But I think it is important to be aware of the fact that there may be a few hiccups, bumps in the road. And I do think that he was a little bit he was guilty of being a little bit cocky, a bit full of himself as far as that's concerned. And I was thinking as we as I was listening to you use this phrase, it was a bumpy, bumpy road or bumps along the way. I thought of a good metaphor here. And I don't know if you remember seeing that documentary. It was a David Attenborough documentary. And I think the name of the bird, I think it was called a barnacle goose. And they nest somewhere up in the Arctic Circle. And they choose to nest on the side of this cliff face. And I think it's about four and 400 feet up in the air. And that when the Gosling's as it were, they are called Gosling's baby geese. When they decide to spread their wings and fly, I think it would appear that that decision is somewhat premature, because their wings to say the least look pretty embryonic in their nature. And judging on the size of their their body, the wings look pretty tiny. Nevertheless, they jump out the nest at 400 feet in the air. And they begin this process of you couldn't really call it gliding, you have to stay is basically falling. And for the first 300 feet, they're doing pretty well remaining a fairly sort of stable descent until there is of course until they hit the side of the cliff. At which point they start tumbling down and bumping down. And you know, eventually they reach the bottom and the music is so sinister that you think that they've made met an untimely end. And then there's this horrible pregnant pause where where I guess the parents come to see how the hell I guess to witness to see the dead body of their dearly departed offspring. And lo and behold, the chick comes to life and just sort of like, you know, shakes itself down. At which point you suddenly hear the very dulcet tones of David Attenborough's voice in a grossly underestimated assessment. In terms of the gravitas of the situation. You hear him say, the chick, somewhat dazed and confused, springs back to life, which is really, to be honest. You've just, I don't know how any creature could tumble down in that way and somehow live to tell the tale. Anyway, this is a very long, verbose way of making a point around alyssia Mateos experience where Yeah, I guess Matteo can be forgive be forgiven for his overconfidence. And I guess for me, they got the Gosling's initial leap out of the nest, somewhat reminiscent of Mateos overconfidence in that situation, but I do feel like part of the journey and doing these intensives is we hopefully allow our clients to experience their innate resilience so That overconfidence was Mateo like that chick leaping out of the nest with him tapping into his innate resilience, he was perhaps not thinking about the possible bump on the way. And in a sense, I hope he doesn't meet any of those kind of bumps to, to the extent that that poor chick did. But nevertheless, that's a possibility. But I do feel like that confidence that he's experiencing, and I think for for Alicia, too, that is very much a part of the journey, that when they do settle, when they do come back into the innate, well, you know, into that state of innate well being, then that sense of resilience and self confidence for, for what the future holds in store emerges. And it's a beautiful thing.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, hopefully, the intensive experience has given them a reference point. So even if things do get difficult if they get stirred up, if they demonstrate some of the old behaviors, they have a reference point that's known to them, it's experiential. And they will remember that it's possible to get back to the space that they're in, currently. And when they have hope for that, and when they know it's possible, they're much more likely to find ways to look in that direction, that will allow themselves to get back there. Yeah,

Angus Ross:

I use that term reference point all the time to get a good reference point, so that you'll have something to, to look to when things are starting to get out of hand. So in a sense, a retreat, or intensives, the intensives that we provide, are really one big glorious reference point in terms of how we guide them back to their essential nature, we guide them back to their wisdom, we guide them back to their innate resilience. And then in having that experience, that's something that they can draw on when when life starts to look a little bit difficult, or their state of mind has gone south. Hopefully, they will remember well hang on a minute. On the intensive, much in the same way, all those people would say, yeah, we're on holiday. We get on like our some fire. They say themselves look, when we're, when we're doing that intensive, we suddenly found ourselves looking through new new optics and life looked entirely different. And so that reference point is going to be invaluable moving forward. And they will forget it, they will forget about it from time to time, as do we all but the growth for them as it is for us all is how quickly we bounced back and remember what exactly is going on. And it's just really down to a state of mind. And that's just informing our reactivity, our behavior, our response is always going to be a reflection of our state of mind. So having that reference point is going to be something that's going to be really useful for them moving forward.

Rohini Ross:

And I want to point out that we all have our reference points, that this isn't just about Alicea material, that this is something that's universal, that every single one of us has a reference point for what peace of mind feels like, every single one of us has a reference point for knowing what we're like when we're not in a reactive state. Everyone knows what it's like when they're in a good feeling versus when they're all stirred up and reactive. And so when we recognize that that's a reflection of our mood fluctuating, and not about our circumstances, we can really look in the direction of how to take care of ourselves, so that we can let our state of mind settle. And then we come back naturally to that place of well being inside. And that is such a game changer for life in general. But for relationships, especially. Because when we know that when the relationship feels difficult, but that's a reflection of our state of mind. It's going to stop us from behaving in ways toward our partner or toward other people in our life that actually make things a lot harder to get along.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, as you're talking, it makes me wonder about all those occasions where we get asked about how do we how do we find our way back to that settled state of mind? And I guess I'm guilty, as much as the next person of trying to figure out well, how do I do that? And I think that why the reference point idea is so valuable, is it's it's not about there being a technique to it. It's about there being a state of awareness of realizing that this is just my state of mind, and that's why I'm suffering in this situation. I'm putting thoughts on this state of mind and I'm getting on board that train of thought and it's not really taking me anywhere. But I really want to go at this point in time, however compelling it may be. But just to have that awareness and have that reference point means that I'm really what I'm really ultimately doing is finding a way to be present in this current situation with whatever's going on, and not taking it personally. And so it's taking on the role of an observer, rather than a role of the character. In that virtual reality that unfolds in that state of mind, I kind of removed myself from the thinking of that state of mind through awareness. And I think that that's something to expand into a wonderful to have a reference point and realize, yeah, this is something that I can look at and explore here. When I feel like I'm, I'm struggling.

Rohini Ross:

So for everybody, just knowing the difference between being in a good state of mind versus not being good state of mind. That's really the simplicity of this. When we know the difference, we know how to act accordingly. And life gets a whole lot easier. Sure does. And so we're going to hear from Alicia next, and she is very optimistic about how things are going and feels very hopeful. So let's hear what she has to say. What I'm hearing is that you're not taking things personally, if he gets snappy, you're kind of able to see well that's that's his state of mind in the moment. You don't have to sort of react to that. So does that mean that because I remember you saying that things would escalate before does that mean things aren't escalating now? Nothing is escalated? Oh, that's great. Well, that's, that's significant, then that's really

Alicia:

Yeah, not one like argument. Not really like a disagreement, like agree to disagree moment, it's more so like, it's been very peaceful and very calm and very, like, he went, what the weekend after our therapy session, he had gone with his buddy for the day to go snowboarding. And he was very communicative with me and checking in. And then I just, like, let him do his thing. And so we've like, had our moments like, separated and had it together. And like I said, nothing's really like triggered either of us. Oh, no, I'm sorry, triggered me. Right. Um, but things that I've like really looked at have been, like him being more affectionate and like wanting to help and offset any, like, household chores.

Angus Ross:

So she seems to be in a good place. It would appear to the sheen of wisdom has not worn off yet from their experience at the intensive. Oh, it's that sounds very hopeful.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, I was really pleased to hear that the volatility had shifted, and that had sustained itself. So that to me was significant for both of them.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, that's, that's wonderful. Long may it last.

Rohini Ross:

And next, we'll hear from Mateo and he actually, is really excited about how the impact of the understanding is helping him at work.

Mateo:

So it was really funny though, like, I took what we learned, moving aside from my relationship, I took what we learned and I, you know, met with my sales team and just like trying to get like, their, their pulse, like, you know, what, what things are you guys dealing with, you know, and, and all this stuff. And, you know, I just saw that they were like, paralysis by analysis type stuff. And yeah, Hawk, they would already know how the conversation was going and, and all that stuff. And they felt that they could talk to anyone and everyone had the same pain points and stuff like that. And I just totally told them to get rid of any preconceived ideas that you have. I don't want you to do anything other than ask questions on a phone call really get to know people not just qualify them but understand their pain points. I don't care how you sell but the first three to five minutes of your conversation should really be focused about the other person on the phone. And the reason you do that is to first get to know them build some rapport, but also to get rid of this story that you already have in your head and you know, be able to approach you know, sell with a clean slate not think that every sale is exactly you know, a cookie Yeah, and buck man these kids have been closing accounts right nice. That's awesome. Okay, this is where it really gets crazy. So one of my sales kids he's like 24 years old. It's got a lot of good potential but he is one of these really quick to respond, right? doesn't fully think it out just like qwikster respond. Again, I don't know why. But ever since we had that conversation, he pauses, he pauses, and he thinks about what he's about to say. And he processes everything. So really smart kid processes. And he's like, okay, but it used to be very combative. Like, oh, yeah, but this is how we used to do that where I was before, right now. He's like, digesting it and being like, Okay. What do you think about this, right? Like, but see, he's fucking thinking for this fucking guy. So I'm very thankful I'm applying this in my work. And that's great. Yeah, really cool.

Rohini Ross:

It's interesting when people are impacted by what we share, it doesn't necessarily touch the issue that they're wanting it to touch right away, it often will go to other areas of life where it's more easily integrated and understood. And that's what I hear here with Matteo, I hear that he sees this very clearly at work. He recognizes now, the value of presence, the value of listening deeply the value of connecting human to human, and having that reflective state of mind where you can listen to the deeper knowing or common sense and have that be what is the compass point for work. And so I think it's really a beautiful description that he gives as to how he's been impacted and how he's now sharing this with his team.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and how excited he is about how he's seeing the fruits of sharing this understanding, really starting to ripen proliferate. And I think, yeah, you're absolutely right. And we see this all the time, and we have the luxury of perhaps, you know, we do relationship work. And that's something that we're particularly fun to doing. But we have also done quite a bit of corporate work as well. And we've also, we've also had situations where people in the corporate field are seeing how this has really helped them at home, in their relationship, because we're taught, ultimately, we're talking about relationship, right across the field. So this understanding is very universal at this level. And so all of those qualities are very apropos in a corporate setting just as much as they are at home with one's significant other.

Rohini Ross:

Well, there's no area of life that isn't impacted by our state of mind. And by having an understanding of how to navigate the human experience of having moods that go up and down. Having a mind that is more expensive, at times more close to others, when we know how to navigate that more gracefully. It makes all areas of life more easy.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I really, at the end of the day, how to be genuinely present with another human being to really relate to someone at that level. That's what he's seeing in his in his workforce. And and that's what's been helping his marriage to.

Rohini Ross:

Absolutely. Well, we'll hear from Alicia now. And she's even saying that they're navigating the bumps fairly well to

Alicia:

Actually really funny, we did have one conversation, where I scaled back from it, because I saw it was going to a, like a bad kind of session. It was about finances. And he had called me and he was definitely in a low mood about it. And he was just like, upset about like paying some bills or whatever. And he always wanted to play like the blame game on me. And I just I remember, like being like, you know what, I really do want to talk to you about this, but I'm not really in the state of mind to be able to effectively like chat with you about it. I was like, I'm just and I'm totally fine. I like kind of like I was like, I'm just in a little bit of a bad mood from work. So like, I don't want it to transpire to this, because I could already tell he was getting like dance. And I was like, but I do want to sit down and let's map everything out. And we'll do it together and this and that. I was like, but I really don't think it's time for a conversation right now. And he kept like trying and trying and I was like, I'm gonna have to let you go. Like, I just I can't have that conversation. Now. I just don't want it to go there. I was like, um, you know, I just have to get through some other stuff. And the conversation ended with us laughing and giggling on the other end and never really like looking at the stuff later on. But I think it's just because he was angry that one of his bills is probably more than what he had thought it would be for the month. Right? Right. Right.

Rohini Ross:

So he was kind of upset about that. Not anything really to do with you.

Angus Ross:

Well, yeah, that's fantastic, isn't it? She's, she's very much the the model student of this understanding now and she was able to not take the ait is obviously a significant test in that respect. And I love the fact that it ended up with them laughing about, you know, whatever they were laughing about, they were able to get to that place and not take that situation personally or seriously. And, and yet, here is provided another wonderful reference point to move forward and realize, yeah, these are not the times to perhaps have a conversation when our state of mind has gone south, even when our partner is doing everything in their power to pull us policy in and do exactly that. So good for her.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, good for her. And for me, this is one of the key pieces for people to really hear, in terms of having more relationship happiness, if we could all get better. And I'll include myself in the we, if we could all get better at not trying to work things out when we're in a low mood, and have the patience to wait and revisit when we're in a better state of mind. So much suffering would be diminished.

Angus Ross:

And it's so hard to do, isn't it because it can feel so compelling Is it is it is trying to sort of get to a place of neutrality, so that are disengaged, and the cogs and gears or analytical machinery, which is desperate to find some quick solution to what looks like an enormous problem. And yet, it's in that space of neutrality. Where we find we recapture perspective, and more than likely, easily find a solution?

Rohini Ross:

Well, I think what happens is when we're in emotional suffering, our instinctual brain tells us to get rid of the suffering as quickly as possible. So that's why we feel compelled to try and work it out. But if we can understand that the feelings will just come and go, they don't do anything to us, they don't harm us in any way. And if we can get better at having an open space within ourselves to just allow feelings to move through us, then we're not going to react to them. We're not going to react from them. And they pass so much more quickly.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I think again, doesn't it boil back down to presence, the presence to understand that there is this, this this intense pull towards the analytical mind that wants to think things through and achieve a result as quickly as possible on that end? And it does feel counterintuitive to sort of look towards space and neutrality. And yet, that's where all the goodies are. That's where we will hopefully have a hunch or or piece of intuition and instinct that will will offer us a new way to approach what looks like an impossible situation.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And Alicia is doing really well with that. Yes, yes. Mateo, on the other hand, might have finished his soaring piece of coming down.Let's hear what he has to say.

Mateo:

Can I put it it's a lot less weight in the relationship, but uh, I mean, there's still shit that pisses me off. Honestly, I guess like, no, she's a pain in the ass. Much better at like dealing with it. But that's where I'm at right now is, you know, I could deal with it before. Now I deal with it, you know, in a different way, where it's, again, less weight. But I mean, the negativity shit still comes into the household. And I mean, she tries to spark the conversations that way, and I just, just, just don't talk. I've just like silent. You know, like, I was doing the dishes the other night, and she said something along the lines because she was going in for a review or something. And all she wants to do is me tell her like, her review is gonna go alright. And I've already done that, like, 10 times, right? I'm like, you've got this, like, you know, you're, you're so valuable to your team members and your company. Like, it's all going to go well, well, fuck, it was 10 time and she said it underneath her breath. towards me, she wanted me to obviously, I just kept doing the dishes. I was like, I'm going to pretend like I don't even hear her shit. I'm just, you know, I'm just washing the dishes. But that's the problem is that like, I don't want to live my life like that. I want to live my life with not someone that I'm going to be compatible all the time with. But like 80% that'd be nice to get a good shot. You know?

Angus Ross:

Someone's got themselves into a low mood. He's crossed over to the other side, isn't he? He's lost his bearings he has he's hit the cliff face. And he's tumbling.

Rohini Ross:

And he doesn't think he's tumbling

Angus Ross:

Not at all. No idea. Yeah. And his feathers, his feathers are definitely ruffled.

Rohini Ross:

They're not quite big enough to carry his body yet

Angus Ross:

not quite big enough to carry his body. We we let him jump out the nest way too soon. Well, yeah, that's why we're here, isn't it? That's why we do the follow up.

Rohini Ross:

Exactly. That's why there's the tumble. Yeah. But you speak to him about a lot of this and you, you do speak to it in a lot of different ways. And I'm not going to share all of the different ways that you tried to remind him of what was discussed in the intensive. But in this next section, all of a sudden, you understand that he's dealing with anxiety, and in quite a significant way.

Angus Ross:

Okay, I forgot about that. So I'm looking forward to hearing what I said.

Mateo:

Yeah, I mean, to the point where it's true, like the anxiety is real. I do get a once I get home and I get these chest pains and even so much so that I I initially made an appointment to go meet with the cardiologist because I had three EKGs they all come back normal, but there's something there. I don't know if it's things I don't know what it is, but I really wanted like nip it in the bud and figure something out here. But..

Angus Ross:

So hang on a minute. I mean, we've got a little you know, gone a little bit more, but um, So on one hand, you're saying you're super chill when you get home and now you're telling me you're having chest pains because of what just seems probably anxiety.

Mateo:

And I am super chill. Like when I come home a blank slate. And then when she starts running and bulldozing me I'm still chill. But in here I'm like

Angus Ross:

oh, say you're a stern on the external. This idea is the appearance of chill, but inside you're not feeling chill.

Mateo:

Oh, yeah, I'm chilled a cucumber on the outside inside, um, as hot as a tamale.

Angus Ross:

Pretty intense. Well, that's something we got to work on.

Mateo:

We got it. Yeah. I think I think what you said is being able to acknowledge when you do start feeling that way and letting your partner know like, Hey, I'm starting to fucking get you know, I'm starting to like pant over here. like a like a hot dog. Like I can't, you know?

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, absolutely. 100% because she can't How is she gonna if you're like you, maybe you're just like, got a great poker face. And she's like, going off 19 to the dozen trying to sort of get some sort of like, some sort of connection going which obviously, she's getting more sped up as time wears on that connection. She's like, She's like, it's like someone hanging on for like this for dear life trying to find that, that life ring to connect with you and you're like, like, deadpan. She's got no read on what's going on. So she's just gonna come at you with all guns blazing?

Mateo:

Yeah, it's hard. It's like I'm a lifeguard and she's like, saved me and she's drowning you the same time.

Angus Ross:

You're kind of like, you're an indifferent like, lifeguard because on the surface, you look like oh, yeah, got this all under control. But inside you kind of go, oh my god, she's gonna drown. And she's gonna pull me down with her.

Mateo:

Yeah, that's one of the other things they made on plastic.

Angus Ross:

So so so in a sense, it's kind of like, Yes, absolutely. 100% then the more you let her know that I am feeling like I don't know how you articulate and you do it in a way that's as neutral as you can be in that situation. But I am starting to feel anxious about this conversation. It's making me feel anxious that would probably quite refreshing for me to hear. And I would imagine she'd be like, Oh, well, that's, that's interesting. And it's kind of like, that allows us to look at ourselves that allows us like kind of like, maybe have a look at how she's showing up.

Mateo:

Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, I brought it up to her to that, like I made an appointment for a cardiologist and she was like, Well, hey, like why I'm like, because I feel like I'm gonna die at the time so I feel Yeah, like

Angus Ross:

yeah, maybe you got a hold that all in that takes its toll.

Mateo:

No shit, Angus. No.

Angus Ross:

No. Well, then this is like, this is an important thing to look at. and holding it all in as you like, like keeping this like cool facade guy and like, I've got my shit together. And that in itself is putting you under a lot of pressure.

Mateo:

Yeah, I'm not doing it to pretend like I got my shit together. I'm doing it so I don't just tell someone to shut the fuck up.

Angus Ross:

Like That's just another way of like keeping your shit together.

Mateo:

Yeah, yes, I guess. But I'm not like trying to do it to like put off like, Oh, I'm so superior and I'm so enlightened, ya know.

Angus Ross:

But there's a sort of like, I know that that, you know, I can see that your motives on what in a sense, there's like there's an element of dishonesty about it, it's not really healthy for you to like, in the sense of your physiology that's not healthy for you to like, be walking through your life and like having to pretend to be something that you're not.

Mateo:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Angus Ross:

And so what's what I'm trying to sort of like, the point I'm trying to make is, the more you can transparently talk about your different your anxieties, or whatever, but in a way, where you feel like, yeah, I want to be able to have this conversation, but I want to have it in a settled way. I don't want to have it now. Because I'm feeling a little tweaked or a little anxious.

Mateo:

Yeah, so can we say that, like in the, in the, you know, the retreat that we did, there was two parts where it was one internal here, but then the other one was, how we communicate with our partner and, and when we're not feeling well, so I've done really well with the controlling of here and not going down these tunnels. But I haven't yet practiced, you know, actually talking to my partner about, you know, this exact thing of like, Hey, I don't feel comfortable in here, I'm getting anxiety or Hey, I feel that you're, you know, on a different level. We haven't done that.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that would, I would say I would be a keen advocate for having that conversation. But my my one caveat is to is to ensure the best of your ability that you have that conversation where on when you're both neutral. And you can even talk about you can even set it up that way. So he's not, you know, for this conversation to take place it needs to but we need to be neutral. And as soon as we get one of us gets out of balance, then we need to disengage.

Mateo:

Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. It's, it's a good day to do that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's I do feel that I've made strides here. But yeah, I haven't I haven't practiced active, you know, communicating this stuff with her.

Angus Ross:

Well, that's a bit of a turn up, isn't it?

Rohini Ross:

What does that mean? People might not understand what that means. Please explain.

Angus Ross:

I guess that I guess that I got I don't know, I should have slipped, I should have seen it coming. You know, we've worked together for four session.

Rohini Ross:

But where's exp ession from? That's a bit of a t rn up.

Angus Ross:

That's a bit of a turn up? You're not saying it's a bit of a turnip? No, I'm not saying he's saying turn up. Or something turned up. Something turned up that was unexpected. I guess that's that's the abbreviated version of it kind of just a bit of a turn up in it. As opposed to turn out?

Rohini Ross:

Well, it's quite funny, when he finally realized that he's only cool as a cucumber on the outs.

Angus Ross:

No, I guess I'm a bit of a bit of the remedial student of this understanding. And that respect took me a while to get that out.

Rohini Ross:

It just shows how strong that veneer is with him.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, to the extent that he's he's dealing with heart palpitations or having to have an achy EKG, that's pretty serious stuff. So obviously, it's really affecting his physiology. Having a bottle that all up.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. So there's two pieces here, we he'd spoke to how he's going to be more transparent with Alicia about his internal experience, which I think would be huge. And the second piece, though, is, it's really going to be important for him to have a different relationship with his thinking so that he doesn't have that level of anxiety.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and I guess I should have seen the telltale signs when I had to use all of the all of the all whatever I had at my disposal, and whatever means I chose to share with him what I felt would be of service to him understanding that he creates his own experience. And, and obviously, he did have some moments of insight, it would appear around that he's kind of reverted back to type. And yeah, there are there again, are the bumps on the cliff face that he's facing is he's up against his his old patterns of habitual behavior.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, but you have a good conversation with him and you give him some he gets some perspective from it. And I think we should just speak a little bit though, in general about anxiety and how that impacts relationships because I would say that whenever relationships are challenging, there's usually some form of insecurity or anxiety present when you say,

Angus Ross:

I would say 100%? Yeah, perhaps all of the time and again, It boils down, not going to sound like a scratch record. Everything boils down to this, it boils down to a lack of presence, it boils down to a disconnection that's born out of someone's mind going elsewhere and not being present in the relationship. And anxiety is an easy train to get on in that respect, and can be a total blind spot. And I have encountered many clients who have started a coaching experience, let's say, and be in complete denial about the fact that they are suffering from anxiety, what I don't experience anxiety, I'm not an anxious person. And then sometime later, that's something that they become aware of, wow, I never knew I was anxious. So it's it is a total blind spot, a blind spot for so many people. Yeah. I misspoke. And I said it was a blind bought, I think.

Rohini Ross:

Well, even it was a blind spot, isn't it?

Angus Ross:

It was a blind spot for me. Certainly, when we got together, I think I had a tremendous amount. And we've spoken about this too. I had a tremendous amount of judgment for what was evidently your anxiety, which to me was, you know, depression is another word that we can use as a label for anxiety.

Rohini Ross:

Well, I think there is slightly different flavor, but I had both.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, but they're in the same food group. But I had a lot of judgment for for your anxiety, okay, we'll call it anxiety. And that was a total projection. Because I, it took me a long time to realize, yeah, you know, what, I am actually fundamentally quite an anxious person, deep down. And I took a lot of my thinking very seriously, and got quite crippled by it on many an occasion. But I couldn't tolerate in you because I couldn't tolerate it in myself. And it was unbearable to deal with, and probably why that was neros significant conflict between us.

Rohini Ross:

And I think that's exactly the same thing that's going on with Matteo. He doesn't know how to be with his own experience. And so it's a blind spot to him. But Alicia is talking to him. I don't really quite know what she's doing. So terrible.

Angus Ross:

Basically, zips is just basically breathing.

Rohini Ross:

But that sets him off the edge. Yeah, he can tolerate any kind of emotional demonstration that she shows because he's so close to that. Going over I mean, it sounds like he's having panic attacks.

Angus Ross:

Can I talk about your habit of picking your fingers?

Rohini Ross:

Yes, you may talk about that.

Angus Ross:

So, right, you have this habit of picking her fingers or cuticles or fingers. And I can tolerate that. It's it's actually an actual fact, it's the sort of perfect weather weather vane for my state of mind, is if I am in a good state of mind, I couldn't care less basic because she picks up things or not, she can chew up to hand off a kid, I'm kidding. But if I am feeling uptight or anxious, cannot bear it just, it's like, it's like scraping a chalk across a blackboard. It's just unbearable to me. But it's because I'm anxious. And it's just a reminder of my anxiety, although I'm not necessarily conscious of it. The fact that you're anxious enough to pick your fingers, it just really highlights my own anxiety without really being aware of it yet. So I have absolute refusal to accept it that behavior in you. Because I can't tolerate it in myself classic projection. 101. Right.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. So for me, this is huge that he got to the place of owning that he has anxiety, and that he sees that. And that part of the equation, as the two of you discuss here in the segment, is being able to be more vulnerable and transparent about that in his relationship with Alicia. And the second part is for him to be on the learning curve of seeing how he engages with his anxious thinking and how that's the source of his anxiety. Yeah,

Angus Ross:

I mean, evidently, we are getting to a deeper level of growth and learning. Yeah, maybe didn't show up in the intensive. And that's what's so good about doing the follow up work. Because these things have a tendency in the real world to appear. And I think that we have hopefully, helped them get to a higher level of understanding that maybe allowed them to unearth some of these things. Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

And the next time you speak with him, the next clip is from the next session, things have dramatically shifted for him.

Angus Ross:

We'll see.

Mateo:

Things are, are way better than that. And last time we spoke, I think it was just, I was missing that whole. That whole piece of the pie where you can openly talk with your partner being Hey, right Now's not the time, right? So it's pretty cool. Everything's been good. On Friday, we had our seven year anniversary of when we started dating. So we had a fun weekend, I went to dinner the next night, we did a pasta making class the next day went to the beach went surfing. And

Angus Ross:

That sounds great.

Mateo:

Yeah. I'm really excited. And it's been really, really awesome lately and I being thankful isn't enough, you know what I mean?

Angus Ross:

So one might be inclined to believe, based on details change in tune that he is, he is somewhat capricious his nature. Because sort of gone from a situation where we did get quickly down into the depths of despair. And then we're kind of back where we belong. Maybe in our natural state. I guess it's a case of, you know, what's, what next? What's gonna happen next?

Rohini Ross:

I've got that Joe Cocker. You set that up, where we're where we belong. You won't serenade me with it?

Angus Ross:

I will not serenade you with that.

Rohini Ross:

Oh, well, yes, I agree. I was listening while I had the Joe Cocker song in my head. It's a certain, certainly a big turnaround. And at this point, we had had our individual follow up sessions with Alicia and Mateo. And the final step would be to come together and just debrief the whole intensive experience, clarify anything and then be complete. And so it seemed like we were going along swimmingly well.

Angus Ross:

Hard and dry.

Rohini Ross:

Exactly. So at this point, we were just in the scheduling phase of figuring out when to set up that final group session. And at least see his work required her to do some travel. And the scheduling took longer than normal, rather than, you know, a couple of weeks. We hadn't got anything on the books. And then about a month after that conversation that you just had with Mateo where he's saying that, I get this email from Alicia, Hey, Rohini. I don't really know how to write you this email. As I'm not sure if Mateo has spoken to Angus. On Friday, he came home and very calmly told me he didn't want to renew our lease together, and didn't want to continue forward with me, which was hard for him to do since we hadn't been in turmoil. His words, he proceeded to completely move out on Saturday, and I've been an emotional wreck ever since. He gave me a ton of mixed reasons that I can't really tell what is real and what isn't. Seems like he finally made the decision of wanting for us to be over forever, which I deep down believe is a huge mistake on his part. It completely pains me to tell you all of this as I truly from the bottom of my heart. appreciate all the work and effort you and Angus attempted to do for us. I will forever be grateful to you both. I'm so sorry. This didn't work out. And it kills me to even say that. I hope for his sake, he finds the happiness he seeks. I know for me once I can get out of this depressed time that I will be okay. I'm sorry to give you this news. It pains me more than you can ever know. I haven't been able to stop crying or eat since Friday afternoon. Is this is the most brutal thing I've ever gone through. Thank you for all the love and support you've shown me Alicia

Angus Ross:

My Goodness me. It's been quite the roller coaster ride. I mean, my goodness on it's been for us a roller coaster. Right? That for and for them. And for her in particular. Obviously she's really suffering at this point. And to feel like everything was so beautifully back on track. And then and then I think as as Mateo said earlier on in the podcast, how she jumps the track must feel like a significant derailment. And I can only imagine what she's going through at this point. devastation, really?

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, so we instead of having the group session, I continue working with Alicia and Mateo goes AWOL for a period of time. And there is still more to be revealed.

Angus Ross:

There is so listen to this space. Doesn't sound quite right. Listen to this space does it? Does it work? One would watch this space, if one was in commercial television. But in commercial radio? Would you listen to this space? Would you listen? Listen for the quiet. What would you listen for? Because he can't go looking for it? Can you go listening for it? I don't know. I am experiencing a certain amount of befuddlement around this idea of listening to the space.

Rohini Ross:

So you would say watch this space.

Angus Ross:

You say watch this space. If you're in commercial television, right? Imagine you would, I don't know. I've heard I've heard people say that on television.

Rohini Ross:

I don't think people say listen to this space,

Angus Ross:

who just say listen,

Rohini Ross:

maybe we should just say listen to next week's episode,

Angus Ross:

would they say listen, and you might hear something new. That's it. Listen, and you might hear something new.

Rohini Ross:

Okay, I will,

Angus Ross:

That's all I got.

Rohini Ross:

And don't forget, if you would like to have your questions answered in the ask anything episodes, please send them in. You can email them to info at the rewilders.org, or you can call for 424-272-6497. Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross:

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross:

If you would like to learn more about our work and our online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewillders.org

Angus Ross:

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.