Awaken to Love

EP14: Breaking the Bondage of Shame

• Angus & Rohini Ross • Season 1 • Episode 14

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**Warning: This episode contains strong graphic language, discussions of sexual situations and it addresses sexual abuse. If you are sensitive to this subject matter, please skip this episode.**

The Rewilders are picking up the pieces after leaving listeners with a total cliffhanger in last week's episode when they had just found out from Alicia that Mateo did want to renew their rental lease. Rohini and Angus continued working with Alicia on her own. After a couple of months pass, Mateo finally reaches out to Angus to talk.

Mateo reveals to Angus painful truths about his past, for which his feelings of shame have kept him from being fully open with Alicia or anyone. Angus normalizes Mateo's emotional experience while expressing empathy and universality. Mateo begins to feel a great sense of relief. Talking about his past and how it still impacts him today proves to be a tremendous weight-off his mind.

After a couple of months apart from Alicia, Mateo feels resolute in wanting to be in a partnership, where he can be whole and honest. He wants to share everything with Alicia, but he expresses concern about what her response might look like. Angus reminds Mateo about his true nature and where his experience of life is really coming from. They discuss the spiritual truths that Mateo embodies regardless of his past, present, or future. And he checks with Mateo on whether he truly wants to be with Alicia.

Want to know how Alicia responds to Mateo after two months apart and intimate revelations are shared? Tune in next week.

This episode explores:

  • When we obtain a stronger inner foundation, things we haven't addressed in the past reveal themselves. 
  • The conceptual mind is an illusionist.
  • Sexuality as a spectrum.
  • The prevalence of sexual abuse, and yet the stigma.
  • When we bring things out into the open, we annihilate shame.
  • Secrets can kill us inside.
  • It takes work to keep a secret and it makes us unavailable to partnership.
  • Using grit and willpower to avoid facing pain can only last so long.

Show Notes
Resources for victims of sexual abuse: RAINN; NSVRC
Brené Brown Ted Talk: Listening to Shame
Glorious game of life: the spiritual truth that we're all "cut from the same cloth."

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 14 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. 

Rohini Ross:

This is Episode 14, Releasing The Bondage of Shame. We wanted to give you a warning that this episode discusses the subject matter of sexual abuse. And so if you're sensitive to that subject matter, please don't listen to the episode. So we know last episode, we left you with a bit of a major cliffhanger. We were completely floored when that happened with Mateo telling Alicia that he didn't want to renew their lease together. As far as we knew things were going well, the volatility in the relationship had significantly decreased. And he even said, that wasn't the reason why he was needing this space. And Alicia was completely shocked at this point, because she wasn't expecting that.

Angus Ross:

Well, you know, you say, we were floored and we were floored. And I don't even know if it's worthwhile saying this. But actually, to be perfectly honest, I was really disappointed. I've always probably had this secret agenda that if we're going to do this podcast, it will be good to see an article, it would be good to see a couple ghosts selling off happily into the sunset. And I thought we had reached that point. And on that basis, then I will feel like we'd have probably a more marketable product because I do like my sentimental ending. And this was anything but the sentimental ending. I was anticipating. So I did feel disappointed, as well as flawed. So I just wanted to say that just so that, you know, I don't know why I wouldn't say that. But I'm just being honest here.

Rohini Ross:

So you are not only shocked you were also disappointed.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. Because I think I thought wow, you know, it's great that we managed to record this arc, you know, of a couple going from a place of sheer despair to one of to one I don't know, obviously not enlightenment per se, but aced. You know, they looked like they were back on track and the relationship was gonna work. There wasn't an attachment to you know what this podcast should look like because I do like my Hollywood ending. And that was a Hollywood ending for me to go from divorce papers to a place where they're getting on like a house on fire.

Rohini Ross:

Well, it's not over yet. I know

Angus Ross:

what the house looks like it's burning again. In a way. It's not acceptable to me.

Rohini Ross:

Well, we're just in service to them.

Angus Ross:

Yes, obviously.

Rohini Ross:

And so in service to you listeners, we are going to be condensing a lot of the material at this point because we worked with them over a longer period of time. And so we're going to take segments from some of the most salient sessions and focus on those, but we will give you an overview in terms of how things unfolded. So with Alicia, when we got that information, Angus, and I both supported her, I think we each had different sessions with her over the time. And Matteo dropped out of the picture for a period of time.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, he basically went AWOL without any rhyme or reason, as far as far as I could see, anyway,

Rohini Ross:

Alicia was very much grateful for the support that we gave her. And one of the things that I think is really important to note is that when Mateo gave Alicia this information at this point in time, after an intensive, one of the significant differences between post intensive and pre intensive is when he did something fairly similar to her before, they continued living together. And she was living in that really difficult situation of limbo. And when it happened this time, she was really clear that that was not workable for her. And so she held a very clear boundary. She advocated for herself, and he moved out immediately. And so to me, that really showed how she had integrated the empowerment and was really willing to advocate for herself and set healthy boundaries to support her, navigating him, saying that he's basically not in the relationship anymore.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And in retrospect, I think, if I am to be honest, again, well, I always like to think that I'm being honest.

Rohini Ross:

Now, what are you gonna say?

Angus Ross:

Well, I feel like the whole thing was thoroughly worthwhile. At this up until this point, it looks like the whole thing is thoroughly worthwhile, from the point of view of where her mental health is, you know, she's got to a place where she's obviously able to hold a healthy boundary. And her self confidence and self esteem has gone up quite a few notches. And I think that's a result of the intensive and the understanding that we're sharing with her.

Rohini Ross:

So after this happened in the sessions with Alicia, we really supported her in navigating the grief, the the hurt, the sadness, the anger, we really held a space for her to have all of her feelings and to see the health in that and to help her take care of herself as she navigated this time. And as things unfolded for her. She, even with this happening still was very kind and compassionate in her regard for Mateo, even if they weren't going to be together, she was really concerned about his mental well being and she didn't feel like he was okay.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, she was a real trooper throughout this whole experience. And throughout, it all, I was just so impressed by her capacity to see Mateo's psychological innocence. And I'm just not really judging him in the way that I would have anticipated her doing so that she was really able to, to view him and his behavior through a lens of compassion, which I thought was quite remarkable.

Rohini Ross:

I did too.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. And, and as I say, she was just really she was she was able to really feel her feelings, be completely vulnerable, but still maintain a very healthy boundary about what was acceptable moving forward. And so hats off to her. And I think that really cannot be stressed enough for me how well she held herself and accounted for herself throughout that whole period.

Rohini Ross:

I agree. And so, over about a two month period, we supported Alicia navigating all of this, and she was starting to have some interactions with Mateo. But after a couple of months, he reached out to you, Angus, this episode really is going to focus on that conversation that you had with him. And I do feel like this conversation was possible as a result of the work that we had done together. It created a space of healing that allowed what was next within his consciousness to come forward.

Mateo:

This is the first time I ever said it, but like, I will I was, to an extent, like sexually abused when I was a kid. Yeah, a kid that was probably like two or three years older than I was. And for me, that caused like a lot of confusion and a lot of like anger and stuff. And I don't know if it played a part in our relationship, but I do know that it's played a part in my life, which only leads me to believe that it did play a part on Alicia and I's relationship to the point where like, I've never told anyone, you're literally the first person, parents don't even know no one knows. And I never really felt comfortable talking about it, and then talking about like, my sexual interests with anyone. So like, with that being said, I don't, I don't really feel that I gave Alicia the fair opportunity, if that makes sense to really understand who I am and, and what like I've gone through, which only by not doing that escalated my, my irritation with whatever she must have been bitching about whatever, you know, holding this thing down inside. And to point, you know, I'm, I'm pretty numb to at least the sexual experiences that Alicia and I have shared. And I think, I think have a pretty big reason to blame for that, like, yeah, her bitching, whatever, fucking total turnoff, but I didn't really let her in anyone in to who I really am. I don't, I don't know what all that means. I just know that, you know, I do care for Alicia. And I feel like I didn't, I didn't give her the opportunity to see who I really am, you know, like what I've been through and stuff. And I told her that I would talk to you, and not figure out a game plan to bring her into the conversation.

Angus Ross:

So I want to be careful how I address this particular experience and having this conversation with Mateo. Because I think that a part of me was actually relieved that there was some gravitas attached to the reason as to why he had gone to a well, two months or whatever it was. And I feel like in what he shared, he'd obviously been holding on to this secret, if you like, throughout the course of his life. And I think that for them to go through that intensive experience. And for him to get to such a high level of honesty and intimacy that that intimacy was once again rekindled. I think that this probably having this on the back burner for all these years was a real was a real pressure for him to maintain. And I think that obviously, on some level, there was some kind of implosion that caused things to go awry again. But I feel like, you know, as you said, I feel grateful that he felt like he could share this with me that we had established enough rapport, to think that he could be vulnerable in this way. So it was it was a really quite, you know, in many ways, an extraordinary conversation. And I hadn't anticipated having that conversation. But I was nevertheless in a sense relieved that you know, that there was a reason of some weight as to why he had disappeared. And it wasn't just a case of everything that we had done, all the work we had done together, had been for naught. So on that level, I felt somewhat reassured.

Rohini Ross:

I agree that what he's sharing here is a reflection of greater health within himself. And I think that this is really common that when we have a stronger inner foundation, things that we haven't addressed within ourselves in the past misunderstandings, limiting beliefs, when we have the foundation to address them, they reveal themselves when we have the capacity to deal with them. And so here he is, with greater inner strength, ready to let go of the shame that he's been holding around this

Mateo:

The person who, who initially like abused me when I was younger, his mother reached out to my mom on Facebook, they became like friends. I remember one day my mom told me and she was like, oh, they're doing so well and stuff. And I'm thinking, I'm like, you have no fucking idea. Like what torment that kid like, placed on my life, right? Like, I didn't know if I was gay, I didn't know if I was straight. I don't know, if I was bi, like, I didn't know any of these things. All I know is that he put me in a position that made me treat relationships differently in my life, it allowed for what I think I mean, take it, my mom was also a pain in the ass to and very bullying. But there is a part of me that, that blame this kid for allowing for me to allow other people to abuse me whether it was verbally or physically or whatever it may have been.

Rohini Ross:

I'm really touched by how much Mateo trusts you and is willing to share this with you the first person that he really opens up to about this. And you can really hear how this has been reverberating in his consciousness and impacting how he relates to people. And it's not surprising that he struggles with intimacy and vulnerability.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and I found it really touching that, that he did trust me enough to share something that was obviously extremely personal. And obviously, one enormous opportunity to get that, you know, what is that? What is that old platitude a problem shared is a problem halved? Is that what it is? But you know, that just completely minimize is really what was something that has been really plaguing him for many years. But yeah, I do feel honored, really. But he would feel that he could trust me enough to, to be so vulnerable.

Rohini Ross:

And in this space, it's his innate health coming forward. It's his wisdom that saying it's time to not keep this to himself anymore. It's his wisdom that saying, he needs to have a shift around this, in order to be in the relationship in the way that he wants to be, or at least to even have the possibility of being in his marriage in the way that he wants to be.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and I would like to think that the intensive format really allowed him to get reacquainted with his wisdom, which is probably led him to this moment, where he feels like yeah, I need to get this off my chest once and for all.

Mateo:

I mean, look, I've been confused for so long, like, not really knowing. And I mean, I've kind of come to learn that. I don't identify with, you know, bisexual or, or, like being 100% straight. Yeah, I prefer a heterosexual relationship. But, you know, there's a term that's been thrown around lately. That's pansexual, which you're, you're attracted to personalities. And I think that's been true for me as well. I'm not like, Yo, man, that guy is hot. But like, there are people out there that I'm like, attracted to. Not really on like a, like a Oh, I want to fuck on or something like that. But like, no, yeah, that person is pretty cool. So I don't even know if sharing that with Alicia would be like right to do because I'm really concerned about this. Like, like, I want to be 100% honest with her and give this thing a chance. I'm concerned with the guilt that she could place on me due to all of this meaning, like, fact that I've had sexual experiences since her and I separated. Could be the guilt that like, you know, she gets angry one day and brings up the fact that I've been with a guy before, right? Like I just don't want that really hindering our relationship in the way that she views me.

Rohini Ross:

It's really common for people with a history of sexual abuse, for there to be confusion around sexual interests sexual identitu. And the way that Mateo is speaking about it here is representative of his struggle with that, and how to come to terms within himself with the fluidity that he experiences around sexual attraction. And I do think it's a good thing within, you know, a lot of our society not everywhere, but at least there is some forward movement in terms of people being more open minded to the fluid nature of sexual attraction. And that it's not just a binary, well, I'm heterosexual or I'm gay. There's a whole continuum of sexual interest that I think most people fall somewhere on that continuum. And we're not necessarily at one end of that spectrum or the other.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I think that in a sense, how lucky are we to stumble up, stumble upon someone who's willing to be so honest, about a theme, which I think really now is very apropos for these times? And it's a worthy subject to explore.

Rohini Ross:

And I hope that is really helpful to him as well.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Rohini Ross:

And then the other piece that stands out to me, and what he's saying here is, how fearful he is that this is going to get thrown back in his face. And I think that is a reflection of the amount of shame, he still experiences around the fact that he's been with a man or a boy. And that that is really weighing on him still.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and that's just a feature of these times, and the stigma that's attached to those kind of relationships and ways of being and how wonderful it is to be able to have a conversation with someone who's willing to be so open about it. I think that's wonderful.

Mateo:

Really, the first question I've ever told this to, I don't know how it's received. I know in this day and age, like people are, you know, okay to talk about these things. But for me, it's, it's like, it's really weird. It's like, Here, I have this conservative girl. And yet, the guy that you married has done some pretty fucking outrageous shit with some dude, you know what I mean?

Angus Ross:

First and foremost, I literally have no judgment on this whatsoever. So I want you to feel perfectly comfortable, you know, I, I mean, I was I, I got I was sexually abused. You know, I was, I was about 12 years of age. And I was in a Sailing Club, and this guy was the guy who was in charge of it all. And you know, as far as I know, he's actually he spent some time in jail in England, for abusing other kids. Luckily, I didn't get I wasn't too much on the receiving end of that a lot of other kids were, I was kind of mildly abused, interfered with, it wasn't like, you know, it didn't really go much further than that. So, you know, and I've had friends, and I've worked with people who've had this experience. So it's nothing to be ashamed of, in any way, shape, or form. It's kind of like, whatever we want to make up about being our past experience with sexual abuse or how it's affected us. It's kind of that's just those are the stories that we tell us with our conceptual mind beyond that, on a spiritual level, you know, if two people love each other, that can be enough. I mean, you may have desires in that in that way. But it's kind of like a guess at this point, you have to really decide whether, you know, you and Alicia want to be together. And that's really the important point. And, you know, maybe she is conservative, but you know, at a at a more philosophical, on a more philosophical level, on a more spiritual level, she should be able to understand all this, because it's kind of like it's part of, you know, like, we get ourselves involved in things and it's really, you know, it's, there's a level of psychological innocence to it all. So I listened to that. I don't know, I don't know what's coming up for me and how I would articulate the feeling that I'm experiencing, but there's a little bit of shame for me, just in the way that in that interaction with Mateo for me, too, I think, on some level, I don't know I follow. I feel like I was a little bit superficial because on one level, I'm trying to sort of share an experience that I went through to perhaps make him feel better about what he went through. And, and, and I feel like I was really trivializing my experience by saying that, you know, I was mildly interfered with, When sexual abuse and sexual abuse, and whether, you know, however you want to define that mildly interfered with I was sexually abused. And there's a, there's a gravity to that really I should not laugh off or say that it was mild interference, it was interference, and it was completely unacceptable. So, you know, I feel like, I guess for me, that just proves how there's such a stigma around being the victim of sexual abuse in this way, because evidently, I feel a little bit uncomfortable about talking about it. And, you know, there is a lot of emotion for me around this. And I feel like, I didn't match his level of author, I didn't match his level of authenticity. And I guess I feel a little bit ashamed about that. Now listening back to that segment.

Rohini Ross:

When I, when I heard it, I just heard that you were, you know, doing your best to let him know, he wasn't alone. And when I listened to you, now I can really hear the the pain and the hurt that is surfacing up around what happened to you as well.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. You know, there's some, there's not much more to say other than I guess, I guess it's taken me by surprise, as much as I was taken by surprise by what Mateo shared in that conversation. You know, I've guess I'm now taken by surprise, by the level of sentiment that I feel now, reflecting on what I went through an hour, you know, I've just sort of probably swept it under the rug for all these years and not really addressed it in a way where I've attached a great deal of meaning to it on the level of being, this is not acceptable, this is really not acceptable. And it's very easy to sort of pass it off, as just, you know, mildly interfered with when it was, you know, it was completely inappropriate. And that's, you know, that's something to to be addressed.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And I think what's important to note here, too, is just how common this kind of abuse is,

Angus Ross:

Yeah I know, it really seems like it is extremely common.

Rohini Ross:

And we are definitely going to in the show notes, put resources for people, if you're needing any support around this, we really encourage you to not deal with us alone, not to keep the secret. And to really allow yourself to be supported and navigating something like this.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that would be great.

Rohini Ross:

And, you know, I don't even know if I've told you about this Angus, I don't even think it's come up. But I remember when I was in elementary school, there was a girl in our neighborhood, who wanted to play sex games. And I felt really uncomfortable and didn't want to but, you know, felt pressured into it and didn't know how to say no. And fortunately, for me, I managed to sort of find ways to not be alone with her. And then, when we met up as a group, the, you know, the neighborhood girls that would hang out together. When there was a group of us together, she then wanted to, you know, play the game. It wasn't just me that she was trying to play those games with she was playing and when the other girls and none of us were talking about it. I never told my mom, I still haven't told her I don't even think I mentioned this to you. So, you know, it's interesting how we just sort of put these things aside. But I remember when we were in the group, I was able to just sort of make a game of it where we wouldn't do that. And she would get really mad, frustrated with me, but it actually stopped. It happening to all of us at that point. But there's just so many ways that this can come up in people's lives in different situations and because of the stigma on it, it isn't talked about, and then there's a weight. Yeah, that gets carried if we're holding judgment against ourselves, I think for myself, because I felt maybe somewhat empowered that I was able to avoid it. There was I didn't feel that there was a ton of weight. But the situation here is I'm listening to it reminded me of it. But it's interesting that I still didn't tell my mom, I didn't tell other adults in my life. And so I think one of the biggest healing opportunities is to have transparency about this. So it's something that children can feel comfortable telling adults about when it's happening, so that there's less of a chance for them to take it on themselves as if it's their fault.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I guess with Mateo he's been dealing with this pressure cooker for years. And now he wants to probably in his relationship with Alicia is to get to a new level of intimacy, and that will involve being able to share something that he's haven't been having to hang on to, because of those very stigmas.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, and in addition to sharing this with her, he also has some other information to share with her too. Yeah.

Angus Ross:

So the other thing that I guess I imagine is is in play here is there's probably been a high level of self judgment. I mean, based on the fact that you've kept it to yourself all these years. And you know, from that self judgment comes the idea that Yeah, well, she's is not going to handle this, what is she going to think of me if I tell her any of the giver, you know, sharing this information with her? So in a sense, it's kind of like, I mean, I hope it does feel like to you that you know, it feels good to be able to say this out loud, because at the end of the day, I mean, for me, it's, I hope it doesn't sound flippant, but it's not a big I mean, you know, I can see how people would think it was a big deal, but it's kind of like we make things into a really big deal. Yeah, made it into a huge deal.

Mateo:

I'm not saying it. Like, I'm not kidding, like, you asked me a week ago, and I'm and I'm like, like, yeah, it's a big fucking deal saying right now, it's like, Yeah, I got sexually abuse, turned me into some sort of a freak for a bit. Like, I might be into like, some crazy sexual ship. I'm in like, more heterosexual than anything. But yeah, sure, whatever, judge me

Angus Ross:

Once we kind of like allow the beast out of the cage, which is not a very good analogy I accept. But in a sense, it's kind of like, once we kind of normalize it and see that, how we kind of makes such a big deal out of things. Once we stopped doing that. Is this such a level of freedom for ourselves? Because we can see how it's just, it doesn't have to have such a grip on us. Like, like, kind of, like, keeping it a secret made it a much bigger deal than it actually was? Yeah. And actually, that will take its toll. So

Mateo:

I feel like it's killed me inside for years. And, I mean, there. I mean, I was suicidal for the longest time. And yeah, there was other outside factors that like, you know, kind of help with that. But I feel like this keeping this didn't allow me to explore life with the confidence that I should have, you know, and I don't know, just it feels liberating. Just like even saying it like, I don't even give a fuck if I walk in my roommates asked me like, I don't even mind telling them. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Go into the car, cuz I need fucking 100% privacy, right? Because I'm still kind of like, like, now it's like, dude, yeah, this is what happened. Give me shit. Yeah.

Angus Ross:

What's kind of cool, certainly through the lens of this understanding is like, when we see how people and myself included, you know, we like we make such a big deal out of things. And then we keep these secrets and keep them to ourselves. And it's kind of it's only for us, it's only we're the only ones who really think it's a big deal. Well, I don't know how Alicia is going to react. But I mean, I have to say that once we follow our wisdom, so much of you know, what we think is a big deal. I mean, you may, um, you know, you may may enter back into a marital relationship with Alicia, but I mean, the fact that you've kind of, you're, you know, you you allow yourself to come to peace with this and come to terms with this. It's part of who you are part of the conceptual minded narrative. It's kind of like, it loses is its power in a way your follow your wisdom

Mateo:

for Oh, such like a closet fucking freak of, of sexuality and, you know, like I said literally like escaping anywhere to go throw a beat real quick like, and, you know, the idea of like having, you know, three songs and stuff like this was always on now it's just like, I really don't i don't care, you know, like, yeah, you know what I would like to do something different sexually but with with my partner and it doesn't necessarily mean bringing other people in. That's not what I want, I want an experience with my partner and for them to be okay with it for them to enjoy for me to enjoy, like, whatever and to enjoy the relationship and the love. Like that's, that's what I want. And, again, I didn't I didn't give it a chance because I wasn't 100% honest.

Angus Ross:

So I want to be absolutely clear. In listening to that segment, for me, I feel like it's it could seem as though I'm sort of trivializing the experience, like it's not a big deal, because it is absolutely a big deal. The abuse that he was on the receiving end was a big deal. That abuse that I was on the receiving end was the big deal. I would like to think that what I was trying to suggests was that what is a bigger, what is a big deal, and perhaps a bigger deal. And the way that we hold this inside is our is our concern and worry about what other people will think and how they will judge us. And then we have to click, then we have to keep this dark secret to ourselves and not share it with the world. And that becomes a high pressure situation, that is a very big deal. But the fact is, is that a lot of people have had this experience. And also a lot of people have decided that Yeah, I don't want to share this with the world for fear of being judged.

Rohini Ross:

And I also want to acknowledge that because we can't share the whole episode, I'm sharing clips, so it doesn't have the whole context within the clip as to how you set that up in the in the session. So it was clear in the session that you weren't trivializing his experience that you were really helping him see that he doesn't need to be defined by this abuse, that it isn't something that he has to make mean anything about himself and his worth and his value as a human being. It is an event that happened in his life. But it isn't a big deal in the sense of it doesn't have to define who he is now.

Angus Ross:

So any apparent insensitivity would be down to your creative editing?

Rohini Ross:

Yes, it is. And for me, what's really important about this section is looking at the role that shame plays in this whole scenario. And that Bren Brown has a brilliant TED Talk. And we'll put that in the show notes as well. So people can watch it because I think she does a beautiful job of making the distinction between guilt and shame, and also showing how toxic shame is. And one of the things that prevents shame from being able to exist is when we bring things out into the open when we don't keep it to ourselves when we bring it into the light. And that's one of the most healing things we can do is to annihilate shame in that way.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I mean, it's it's a conversation that I guess right from the outset was this sort of I was sensing the the relief in Mateo, that finally I can actually put this out there on the table for all of us to see, particularly for, what's her name, particularly for Alicia.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And so this is this is him reclaiming his life back. This is him reclaiming himself. This is him letting go of judgments that he's held against himself and saying, Hey, I'm good enough and I don't need to hold back or be ashamed of who I am or what's happened to me. Like I really hear that and where he's coming from,

Angus Ross:

ya know, it was really empowering to hear him talk and that thing was wonderful.

Mateo:

Since Alicia and I separated, I've actually had like three separate occasions like sexual experiences and, and one of them actually, I won't even consider a sexual experience because that girl just had some daddy issues and just wanted to slap the share to someone, but it's very, like, kind of I wouldn't say hardcore shit, but like, definitely some shit that I've never tried before but always was interested in and very, very, like sexually frustrated that I couldn't experience those things. And I couldn't be open about it because first off, I'm kind of embarrassed and ashamed of what happened to me kind of embarrassed and ashamed of, you know, having these these wants. And, and I'm not sure. Like, I want to be honest with Alicia, if we're going to give this a go, right? If I'm gonna, we're gonna try to get together like, I want to be 100% honest, not sure I really want to share, like, or answer questions on who I did what with but you know, I just, I don't know. I don't know how she's gonna receive it. She might, you know, think I'm just full of shit or whatever. But obviously, she's not going to be happy. You know that I have had experiences since we separate. It was strictly sexual. It was never an emotional thing for me. Actually, I started going down the path just trying to figure out like, how do people like do that stuff? You know what I mean? Like, what's the safe way to practice it? Like, whatever. But I did have real sexual intercourse with to seven people. I don't know what that means for everything. I don't know if she's ever gonna forgive me for it. In my perfect world. She hears this. She sympathizes is kind of angry. to a point where she can overcome the anger. And it not drift back into our relationship when you know when she's angry. You know, I don't I don't want that to come in, like, Oh, you fucking cheated on me or whatever, right? Like, to me, I didn't, I didn't we were separated. This wasn't an emotional investment I made in anyone who's purely physical. And I used it as a mechanism for me to learn about myself and not overcome some of the notice, say, like, some of the wants or confusion that I've had. The people that I I was with, it's not like I met them on the side of the street or at a bar and like that, I actually seek these people out and they were, you know, quote, unquote, like professionals, right? They're in the fucking hookers, but they're there. Like, there's, they specialize in. And one part and it's, like, BDSM like, it's like, dominatrix type shit. I don't think I had too much leather strapped to me. But yeah, so fucking weird shit. Which I didn't mind. But I'd want it to be with a partner. You know what I mean? Like someone that I'm emotionally invested with. But I was talking to this girl, this girl and I was just telling her, like this stuff, and I felt no shame. And I just kind of was like, Fuck, like, Why couldn't I have been this open with Alicia like, it could have probably, like, changed a lot of different things, you know? Cuz, once I started becoming less sexually driven towards Aliciaand like, the monotony of like the same shit, you know, I became like, this fucking porn addict that, you know, is like trying to sneak in every masturbation session that he could watching some like crazy shit. And then I'd come home and I would have zero stamina for Alicia and it really placed a burden. And I mean, like, and one time she was like, I can't believe you don't want to have sex with me. It's like you're gay or something. Right? And I was just like, Fuck, like, I don't know, I don't know what's going on. Right? But I feel that this level of honesty is supposed to be had within within a relationship. And I didn't I didn't bring that to the table, which left a lot off the table. I just don't know how it's gonna be received. I don't know if the girls ever gonna be able to get over a gig Forgive me like, I just don't know. But I do know that. No, she she definitely wants to be in a relationship. She wants the marriage to work out. But I've also come to realize like if I'm if I want to be in this relationship, like I want to be in a relationship that's 100% honest

Rohini Ross:

With what Mateo is sharing here, you can hear how, by keeping this a secret, it prevented him from being able to explore sexually in the way that he wanted to within his relationship with Alicia. And it seems more understandable than the impetus for him to need a break, because he was having to keep all of this inside, and not able to enjoy the sexual aspect of the relationship because of that. And so on this time of separation, where he did allow himself to explore these areas, it was through that exploration that he then realized that he didn't want to let go of the love and intimacy he has with Alicia, that he didn't want the two worlds to be separate. And to me, that's part of him, integrating all of this within his own consciousness and trying to find a way to piece things together. And understandably so now, he's worried that maybe he's gone too far. And with what he's done the there's irreconcilable damage done in terms of the relationship.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, very well said. I think that it would occur to me that he's obviously having to hold on to this, what he probably feels is this dark secret for all these years. And as all along wanted to sort of be be out, you know, have it out there in the open, and not have to maintain this level of secrecy. So the acting out, and I guess we can call it acting out in terms of his liaisons, that's, that's him being able to let off some steam, letting off a little bit of that pressure. And really all through it all. The pressure is coming through that lack of honesty that obviously he now wants to have a relationship which is completely transparent, and will be so freeing for him. But there was nevertheless, without that transparency, there was a need to find some sort of release for the feelings that he'd been having to maintain for all these years, it reached reached a critical mass.

Rohini Ross:

And I don't think I would describe his behavior as acting out behavior. I think that he was exploring his sexual interests. What Why do you call acting out?

Angus Ross:

Or maybe Yeah, I guess acting out implies this sort of judgment around it being not okay. I think thank you for picking me that picking up picking up on that. I feel like I don't know, I feel like it was a case of him feeling like he needed to express himself in a way where he was looking for an outlet to feel to feel like he wasn't having to hold all this inside. I feel like that probably ultimately, what he's looking for is to live an honest and authentic life. And if he could do that with his partner, that was going to always be a problem. So he's going to look for expressions to do that elsewhere.

Rohini Ross:

And that, ultimately, what he says here is he does want to be able to explore his sexuality with Alicia. And I also want to point out that, you know, when he's describing the BDSM, you can hear, even in what he's saying that there's a certain amount of stigma still attached to wanting to explore sexuality in that way. And I think it's really important for people to understand, in general, that there's so much range of what normal healthy sexuality looks like. And there's so much judgment and stigma that makes it looks like there's only a very narrow path that's acceptable. And so I'm hoping that in just him being able to speak about it, it takes that stigma off of it for him, and just here and having this conversation in an educational way. I really want to, you know, make that point that we need to really open up our mind in terms of recognizing what's okay as long as there's two consenting adults involved, and no one's harmed, that there's lots of ways that are healthy to explore sexuality.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. It's almost like there's this sort of unwritten rule book or, or serious code of ethics that really at the end of the day just boils down to, to culture and what what is Considered a cultural norm? And who's who is the? Who is the referee? As far as that's concerned, no one

Mateo:

is me thinking about this and thinking, it's the reason why this could have hindered my relationship. Is that me fighting like looking ahead versus like storing? You know what I mean? It's kind of like,

Angus Ross:

yeah, yeah, in a sense, like, it's really you need to look in the direction of the, whatever those beautiful things that come forward, when you when you get yourself back on, you know, looking in the direction of well being and looking in the direction of your innate well being, is kind of, we're all looking for that. I work in the recovery community quite a bit. And all those guys are getting into trouble with drugs and alcohol. But they're just innocently looking for well being, they're looking for a way to self soothe, because they've got so wrapped up in their conceptual mind, that they kind of lost the plot, they're looking in the direction of their conceptual mind, they're not looking in the direction of their spirituality. They're not looking in the direction of that innate well, being that in this universe is always looking for balance and harmony. When kids come into the world, as infants, you know, so many I hear so many people say, how infants are so close to God in their innocence, they're kind of close to God. But in a sense, it's kind of like that close to that well being because you come into the world, and all they get to experience with their five senses, because their conceptual mind is not developed is their essential nature. It's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. And they're just out there. They're just like being well being. And then we get information, and we get experiences, and we get challenges. And we start building up this little picture inside our head of our conceptual mind and, you know, approach to life. And we lose touch, we lose touch with our spirituality. I mean, in a sense, it's kind of like this world is in a spiritual crisis. And I don't mean spiritual crisis in a woowoo way, I mean, spiritual crisis, and like, we're forgetting who we are. And we're like, spinning all these tales, through our conceptual mind, because it's such an amazingly powerful tool.

Mateo:

Yeah, I just, I totally understand what you're saying. I just have to be able to accept my truth and be okay with it, and then just be spiritual, I guess about it. You know,

Angus Ross:

there's no, there's no way of knowing how she's going to react. I, you know, you can't forecast that. But I mean, I could, and I would like to imagine. And she's in a settled state. But she could see it through, you know, if she see if she can get her mind settles and get beyond her conceptual mind, and all her standards that surround that, then on that level, you know, we can forgive or not have judgment about him. But why would we have judgment around that everything that you've told me, is coming from a place of psychological innocence?

Rohini Ross:

What I really appreciate you pointing him to here is the recognition that the way that he's going to have new understanding come in is not going to be through looking in the direction of trying to figure things out or trying to understand something or more about what happened, that you're pointing him to look in the direction of where his inner safety actually lies, where he can truly find well being. And that's what interrupts the automatic thoughts that come in related to safety and danger. And they can be rewired, they can be shifted, we're not stuck with them. And what shifts them is when we have a new experience that completely contradicts the old framework that we've been working from. And that's what I hear him seeing more deeply here is that the way he has been living his life, and the way that he's been trying to protect himself, he's seeing how that doesn't work, and how it limits his experience of intimacy and connection and closeness, which is what he really wants. And so you're helping him to recognize that place of safety and well being that he has within that is completely untouched by anything that's ever happened to him. And that by having an experiential knowing of that, that shifts the old programming.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, there would have been a great opportunity for me in that conversation to share that Einstein quote. Well, I think it goes something Think along the lines, you can't solve a problem at the same level of consciousness that created it. So maybe I don't know how good a job I did. But what I was trying to convey to him was that to get beyond the conceptual mind is a cap laboring that point. And trying to find a way find a way into his impersonal mind, where that's a much better resource for him to access his wisdom and intuition. And get perspective. But we have a tendency as human beings to get too enamored with all the water under the bridge that we store away in our conceptual rational mind. And it's easy to fall into that pattern. And, and there's a certain amount of safety, we can convince ourselves that you know that we're comfortable there, when in actual fact, that's where we experience stress and anxiety, to look to our impersonal mind and look for intuition is key.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And it's in the impersonal. It's in that space within, where we connect with our deeper feelings and our deeper knowing of who we are, that we truly get to experience that innate well being that you're pointing to. And that's healing. Yeah.

Angus Ross:

Well, I mean, I think the important thing is, if you're clear that you I mean, you're clear that you actually want to be with this woman. I mean, I know that there are this criteria attached to that, like you want to be with this woman, but you don't want to you don't really like the crazy. And it seems like there's also the fear that the crazy now could, could use some of this information against you. But in a sense, really, I mean, it just like, none of that really matters. And in a way, it's kind of like, I mean, you know, what we're always pointing to is that, you know, that the relief, you know, with people who get into difficulty and relationship, but just being able to see that their partner is just getting caught up, they're just getting caught up in their conceptual mind. And they're making a big deal out of something because they've got themselves into a low mood, but where things start to shift is when we stopped taking that personally. So in a sense, I know that's a big deal. And it's a hard nut to swallow. But it's kind of like that's where the shift will start to happen is like when we stopped taking each other's low moods personally, and the things that we say when we're in a low mood. So definitely, you know, that's the case with Rohini and I, you know, we get upset from time to time, of course, we get into low moods, we're human. But we don't tend to take how we show up with a low mood particularly seriously, because it's just the products of our conceptual mind. But beyond that, there's a spiritual connection. So you have a spiritual connection with Alicia, you love her. Obviously, you want to be with her, or else we wouldn't be having this conversation now. But it's kind of like all of the rest of it is just a product of our conceptual mind. It's a product of our thinking. It's like a narrative that we spun. It's almost like I had a conversation with a client today, where we had we we talked about the conceptual mind and how there's, you know, it's almost like there's an illusionist in control. That is like this like illusionary is like a figure like an illusionist, like a magician. That kind of was like, trying to sort of like, which you could say was our ego is trying to sort of pull us back into that way of thinking or pointless in a direction that really is just feeding the illusion, feeding the narrative. But beyond that, you know, there's an intelligence behind life. It's always steering us towards well being like, so for argument's sake. I don't know where you where you fall on the spiritual plane. I'm not a religious person. So I see this is how I see it. So if you look at even at an atomic level, subatomic particles, the way that those subatomic particles configure themselves create atoms, and the atoms then go on to create elements. How are those subatomic particles configure themselves in such specific ways? And yes, the science part of the scientific community will say, well, that's a random accident. That to me is almost lunacy, to say that those subatomic particles configure themselves in such a specific way to create the building blocks of life. There has to be an intelligence. Not only does it have to be an intelligence that's kind of guiding that, but it also suggests that intelligence is looking for balance and harmony. So that's a part of you, that's a part of me, that's a part of everything that makes up matter in this universe is looking for balance and harmony. So we could say that that's the spiritual plane that on one level, there is a spiritual, a spiritual dimension, for one a better way of defining it. And then we are blessed as human beings to have a conceptual mind. And the conceptual mind is just a machine that makes up shit, make some really good shit up. And we need a conceptual mind, it's how we experience the world that we live in. But it's not the full. It's not the full package, there's something beyond the conceptual mind. There's, there's a spiritual conversation to be had here. Because there's an intelligence behind life, universal intelligence, some people will put a label of God on that. I know, I'm not inclined to do that, because it's such a loaded, loaded thing to do. But there is an intelligence for me, and in that intelligence, always looking for balance and harmony, like a seed that germinates and, and a sapling, under concrete finds its way through that crack in the concrete towards the light how we have, when we cut our arm, the body knows how to repair itself. There's something driving this crazy thing called life that's looking for that, that balance and harmony looking towards well being. And that's the direction, I feel. That's the only direction we need to look in, particularly when we get caught up. So if you're getting caught up about what's happened, you're getting caught up in what happened to you in the past. In a sense, you're like, you're looking only to what you've got stored away and your conceptual mind. Like that's The Illusionist, like trying to pull you in trying to make sense of it all. But to look in the other direction, that's where we see that we're all kind of connected, we're all one you're looking on one level, you're looking at Alicia from through that lens, where everything looks like, yeah, I want this relationship to work, because this relationship looks like well being on one level. But the only thing that's really getting in the way of that is what you're building up together with your conceptual mind. Spiritually, you're drawn to Alicia, because you, you know, there's a connection there. But there's this whole other thing going on up here. On a heart, your heart is drawn to Alicia, but your mind is kind of like in this state of confusion. And it's kind of like you're going between the two camps. Otherwise, I imagine we wouldn't be having this conversation, I imagine is something that's, that's drawing you to Alicia, which is going to be a lot more to do with. Well, you know, with your heart and the formless nature of being human, then then anything that you've got stored away in your intellect. Like you've got a very powerful analytical mind, you know, obviously, from all the conversations we had, I can, I can see that that's something that serves you well. And it's really powerful. But it's not the whole picture. So you're trying to make sense of this all with your with your intellect. But it's beyond your intellect.

Rohini Ross:

As a reminder, for those listening, we are having to really condense the pace at which things are unfolding. So you're only getting snippets. And we have moved quite quickly, quickly along from looking at Mateos experience of the sexual abuse. And now, Angus, you're addressing with him, his desire to be back in the marriage with Alicia. And I think based on all of the work that you and I had been doing with Elisa during this time, there's a certain amount of protectiveness that we have here in terms of not wanting, wanting for him to jerk her around one more time. Seems like she's been through a lot in terms of him being in and out. And so when he's saying he wants to be with her, but he only wants to be with the same her. You're really calling him out on that and recognizing that if he wants to be in the marriage, if it's even possible if he's even going to be open to that, that he needs to learn to not take things personally. And in the next few segments that keeps getting emphasized. But I think it's something that we all need to learn. And it's definitely something that Mateo is still letting it sink in and has more to see.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, definitely. And isn't it interesting how at this point, with Alicia, who is really kind of the poster child of seeing her partner's psychological innocence, he is struggling with that. And so I'm having to do everything again in my power to try and sort of press that point that that will be, that will be pivotal in terms of how they can remain and stay together. As soon as he starts to see that, he can drop those standards and expectations around how she's supposed to show up. And take on board, what I'm saying about looking in the direction of his impersonal mind, which is the field of intuition and wisdom, and get a little bit more aware of the personal mind that will be really attached to water under the bridge, really attached to standards and expectations based on his programming and conditioning. And understand that that's not going to be his most valuable resource. His most valuable resource is intuitive, impersonal mind, which as I've said is not you know, that's the seed of universal wisdom. And that's the direction to look in.

Rohini Ross:

I think that's really key for all of us to see, that what helps us not take things personally, is having more grounding in the impersonal vantage point. And the impersonal vantage point is that space that we have within us that is open hearted, and kind and generous and loving. And it is not a doormat, it is not weak. To me, it's the most powerful state of consciousness that we have the loving state.

Angus Ross:

I want to I want to understand that you're really wanting this relationship to work and that will this relationship still be enough? In the face of like you being able to like, share your truth, be honest, be vulnerable. But once you're vulnerable, once you're honest, and you share all this information. Is it still what what is what is pulling you back towards? Alicia? I guess that's my big question.

Mateo:

I mean,

Angus Ross:

all that I've just mentioned, you know, on a spiritual level,

Mateo:

ya know, she's, she's great. And there's this sense of innocence to her. And I don't know, she just, she accepts me for who I am. But this missing piece here was what I feel that she didn't accept me for who I am. And I had to accept her everything for who she is. And I really, I didn't give her the opportunity to be there for me emotionally because she was so caught up in our own shed and had, I wouldn't open up because I just, you know, I'm, I don't fucking talk about shit, right? Like, something's bothering me. I don't give a fuck. Like, I'll just keep moving forward and deal with the abuse. I don't give a shit. Because I've done it for so long. You know, I did it in this action with this kid, I did it with my mom, my sister, like, everyone, like I just have been allowing, you know, all this shit to enter and not really share anything, because I didn't think anything was really worth sharing. I mean, I don't I don't know if that makes sense. It's like, I've never shared, I've never shared and it's something that actually frustrated me a lot in my relationship, but I didn't give Alicia the opportunity. For me to share and for me to feel whole in my relationship. There was always like, an empty piece there. You know what I mean? So I feel like now that I'm, I'm okay, with what is going on? I think I can, you know, be a better partner and, and have more understanding for her because, you know, hopefully she'll have understanding for for me and, and whatever. Like, obviously, I still don't want to hear a bitch about her work and stuff like that. But, you know, maybe,

Angus Ross:

but she's probably gonna do that.

Mateo:

No, that's, that's fine. But I think laying everything out on the table, kind of like I've opened the closet, I've emptied all my demons. And I won't feel like all this anxiety when she's just bitching because it's like, I'm just throwing her demons in my closet. You know what I mean? Just like fuck it, just throw them in there and, and there's like this whole closet full of fucking shit within me that I haven't just been able to use like, I'm just, I don't know if you ever saw the mummy where the guy opens his mouth and all the fucking locusts is fly out of his mouth. It's kind of like, oh, how this feels for me, it's like, there's like a huge weight off my shoulder right now, I'm talking to you about it, the, the weight that I've carried around for so long of this and what it has led me to, to do and how it's led me to react in relationships. And, and Alicia, you know, I would say that, I mean, there are times where, like, she's bullied me or whatever. But for the most part, like, she's, she's been nothing but fucking stellar. And I was really the one who was, you know, very turned off emotionally, sexually, spiritually, because it takes every ounce in your being to maintain such like a secret, you know, about yourself. So, that led me to believe that I didn't, I didn't put forth a great effort in the relationship, because I can be 100% honest with my partner, which cause you know, other issues start snowballing. And

Angus Ross:

I guess it's so easy to realize now listening to Mateo, how toxic it is to not be able to express oneself, particularly in the, in the course of a relationship, if one feels like one has to hold back this again, I don't know if this is how he sees it, I'm sure he does is this dark secret that he's had to maintain for all these years, and he's in relationship with someone who's very adept at wearing their heart on their sleeve. There's probably a real frustration for Mateo that every day, he's being forced to witness someone who's actually very open in that respect. And on some level, there's a great deal of discord that he can't express himself in the way that he wants to. And I guess it's I don't know, I guess it's a classic case of, of psychological projection, he's angry with her, because she is able to do the one thing that he is unable to do.

Rohini Ross:

And this is a really common coping mechanism that many people use. And I think quite often, we take on conditioning that tells us we just have to push through, and that we need to ignore our own psychological needs, that they're not important. And so we can just bottle things up inside as a way to push through. And eventually, at some point, things tend to break down, you know, I really relate to Mateo, I think I am someone who doesn't necessarily have a tendency to wear my heart on my sleeve all the time, although I think I'm getting better at that. But I think I, I took that path as well, of just thinking that I could use grit, and willpower, in order to avoid facing painful things that I've experienced in my life. And, you know, I ended up having psychological breakdown when I was about 22. And it seems like Mateos having his meltdown at this point in his life. What right when he's at the cusp of being able to be in a committed, settled, intimate relationship. That's when he starts to melt down. And that's actually the health of the system. And that's why I love the metaphor of rewilding because rewilding really acknowledges the health of all of it. And so this is painful as it is as messy as it is. This is part of his rewilding. This is part of him reclaiming who he is, and being committed to having a whole life and not living just a fragment of what he wants to live, but to really embrace it all. Yeah,

Angus Ross:

well said he's, he's definitely gone wild. I actually, it's actually quite exciting to consider it on that basis. He's really coming out to Alicia, and expressing himself in an authentic way.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. And I think that for all of us, we want to embrace the wildness of who we are and our conceptual mind will tell us that that's not allowed and it's too messy and it's we're gonna end up making fools of ourselves. But really, we want to listen to that call in our heart that has us want to expand and stretch and grow. And of course, there's going to be mess along the way. We're not gonna get it right the whole time. There's going to be a learning curve with All of that. But that's the beauty in the richness of life.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, he's, he's really throwing caution to the wind. And I love that expression. If I think of it in terms of the rewilding metaphor for me, throwing caution to the wind, is to not be so preoccupied with what society or the programming or the conditioning things. It's just doing it anyway and following one's instinctual side. And that is that is the message behind rewilding is to follow our instincts to follow that wisdom, and to not care what other people think and to throw caution to the wind.

Rohini Ross:

And really, just as a insight into the title of the podcast rewilding love, we're not really talking about romantic love. We're talking about rewilding, the impersonal love that is our true nature.

Mateo:

Thanks for letting me share all this.

Angus Ross:

Welcome, I feel really privileged that you would share that with me. I mean, it's you know, it's, it's good to get that off your chest. I imagine after all these years, man God, and it's but it's not a big deal. You know, I want you to know, it's not I don't think it's a big deal. And I know that sounds kind of people think well, that's awful thing to say, because society would think that's a really big deal. But it's kind of not a big deal. Because like end of the day, that's that's not who you are. You know, we make up shit and build a story around it. Really? And then the end of the day, we're all we're all spiritual beings having a human experience. Yeah.

Mateo:

I think I can sleep tonight.

Angus Ross:

Awesome. All right. Hey,

Mateo:

text me,

Angus Ross:

I will do Oh, man. Take care.

Mateo:

Bye, bye.

Angus Ross:

So again, I want to stress when I say that, it's not a big deal. That on one level, it is a really big deal. It's a big deal, on the personal level, in the terms of our programming and conditioning, that is a that is that is abuse. And he's had to suffer as a consequence of that, and the way that he's, he's had to live his life. But for me, on a spiritual level, it's not a big deal for me on a spiritual level, that is just Mateo being a spiritual being having a human experience. And in this sense, the human experience is akin to the, to the game of life, if it were a computer game, it would be the game of life, and the whole object of the exercise would be to grow and evolve in consciousness. And in my estimation, to grow and evolve in consciousness, we have to come up against challenge. And sometimes those challenges are really tough. So really, on that level, if I look at it from that vantage point, no big deal, you know, I go through life, I have challenges. I grow from them, and I evolve in consciousness, I either do that, or I suffer and in a sense, buckle under that pressure. And for a good period of time, Mateo, it's not that he's been buckling under that pressure. But he has had that he's had to live a life where he's really being white knuckling his way through it. So I'm sure he feels tremendously relieved today to feel that he can finally get that off his chest. But you know, it is no big deal in terms of this is what he's going through. This is the game of life. And hopefully, he'll get to the other side with a lot more a lot more savvy and know how and wisdom at his disposal.

Rohini Ross:

I really hear the compassion that you have for him. And in those words, it's no big deal. And I don't just see that on the spiritual level, I see that on the human level. Because what I hear in those words, is that you're telling him that who he is, is not damaged by this, that it's not big enough or powerful enough to impact him in that way. And that he does not have to define himself by this experience, that he's not a victim, even though something horrible happened to him, and that we don't want to minimize that on any level. But we also want him to be empowered, and to know that who he is, is far greater than anything that's happened to him.

Angus Ross:

And in response to you saying that, I guess I would say that, if I am to believe and I do that we are all spiritual beings having a human experience. I guess the messaging however, purposeful, that wasn't the time. And I don't think it was, I think it was more subconscious on this level is that I was really trying to relate to him at a spiritual level. And let him know that we're on equal footing here. We're all in this game of life together. And there's nothing really different between you, me or anyone else. We're all trying to do this glorious Game of Life. And on a spiritual level, we are all cut from the same cloth.

Rohini Ross:

It's a beautiful reminder. And so as we bring this session to completion, how we left it with him was that we would meet up with the four of us so that he could share what he wanted to share with support with Alicia and see where it goes. Basically.