EP15: Love Restored

Angus and Rohini create a safe space for Mateo and Alicia to meet for a much-needed conversation about Mateo's past trauma and how it's impacted his life and their relationship. Mateo fears Alicia will be enraged at him when he shares about his recent sexual experiences outside of their relationship but is shocked to find she has a different response. Alicia has renewed her relationship with her spirituality, and she credits this for her ability to move forward, forgive, and stay in the present. 

Rohini relays a story about the power of not listening to her conceptual mind in regards to a conflict with her daughter. When she was caught up in her reactivity, the problems she and her daughter were facing seemed nearly impossible to tackle. But after her mind settled, which allowed her true nature to emerge organically, she had a refreshed outlook on how she could approach her daughter and they were able to see eye to eye as a result.

Meanwhile, Mateo and Alicia seem to be off to the races as far as regaining their connection and granting forgiveness is concerned. The group reflects on how much new "bandwidth" is freed up after secrets are revealed and shame is annihilated. But in true Mateo fashion, he has one more jaw-dropper to share with the group before the close of their session. That leaves Rohini feeling skeptical.

Rohini and Angus share news from their follow up with the couple. Will Angus get his "Hollywood ending"?

This episode explores: 

• The burden of a secret is toxic.
• Releasing shame allows us to be open-hearted again.
• Learning is what's most important -- even though it can be painful.
• When a relationship is in crisis, the opportunity for healing and growth is part of that "crisis-packaging".
• Forgiveness

Show Notes

The truth will set you free: Biblical adage from the "people's favorite gospel". And, when we let go of judgment we can see that our innate essence is always pure.
Netflix metaphor: Angus's famous metaphor about a low mood's desire to find a matching "frame" -- like when rewinding a show on Netflix.
Bundy Drive: the physical street Mateo and Alicia turned onto to get to their session with Angus and Rohini -- also refers to Mateo's foreboding feeling about Alicia's possible response to his revelations.

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 15 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: info@therewilders.org

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.

Transcript

Rohini Ross: 0:00

This is Episode 15. Love rewilded. Well, after last week's episode, this session is meeting with the four of us. And we were really fortunate that we were able to set this time up where we could all meet together in person pretty quickly. After what Mateo reveal to you.

Angus Ross: 1:19

Yeah, I mean, I think I've run out of ways to articulate how we never saw this coming, because I never saw this coming. And I can't even imagine how surprised Alicia is going to be. And I'm very curious to see how that information is going to affect her and what the response is going to be. So yeah, we're really lucky that we were able to pull this together so quickly. Especially as you know, Mateo, bless his heart decided to sort of go AWOL for a little while. And now here we are, again, I had, as I have said before, I thought the whole thing has gone up in smoke. But it's very much not the case. And we'll see where we go for forward from here.

Rohini Ross: 2:08

And even though, Mateo went a while, we had been working with Alicia, and she was navigating all of this in a really mature way.

Angus Ross: 2:24

Yeah, I mean, she was the poster child for maturity. As far as I was concerned in the way that she was handling it, she was feeling her feelings. And she was very philosophical about it. And she was never throughout it all. And we've said this before, she was never really feeling any sense of vitriol towards Mateo, quite the opposite. She was really somehow able to see his psychological and innocence within all of this. Which is amazing.

Rohini Ross: 2:50

And then one other thing to note is that before this meeting, they had been connecting, they had been getting along. So that had been happening, but Mateo just hadn't revealed these two important pieces of information, one about the abuse and two about the infidelity.

Angus Ross: 3:10

Yeah. And he obviously felt like I guess we had created a safe container for him to share in that way. And this is going to be that moment. So with this next section that's coming up, I do seem to remember that we had to start around lunchtime, because I think we had to accommodate the fact that they wanted to go to church that morning. And church is something I guess they do together. And I don't know if it was because of that in my remembrance of going to church. In terms of why I decided to sort of kick things off on a more spiritual note, I bet it was that, maybe it just felt like it was appropriate at the time, it was obviously appropriate to me at the time. But I guess I guess I went big picture. And I kind of liked the way that I decided to do that. It seemed like that was effective. And it was a good place to start.

Rohini Ross: 4:13

Well, I seem to recall that we did have a conversation about this, because we didn't want them to get caught up in the weeds. And so we thought it would be important to set a bigger picture context to help them be more philosophical, because we're going to be dealing with some pretty sensitive information. And so if their minds and hearts could be open, we felt that that would allow for a better meeting with all of us.

Angus Ross: 4:38

Well, you know, I have a memory like a goldfish. So I guess that's why I needed to find another reason.

Rohini Ross: 4:46

So I could say make anything happen you.

Angus Ross: 4:51

I'll go with that though. If you think that that higher power is part of our design is kind of like we are, we come into this world. And we have the gift of a conceptual mind and the ability to think, and kind of figure out our environment with our five senses. We have that gift if you like. But, and that's part of our design. But a bigger part of our design, perhaps to consider is that our essential nature is made up of that consciousness, that intelligence behind life. And so at that level, if we consider that, you know, at that level, there's no judgment, because it's beyond the conceptual mind. It's beyond the ego, it's beyond all the stuff that we make up and store away, it's kind of like, there's just no judgment there. There's no conflict, there's no difficulty. It's just all about creating balance and well being. So I thought, I just thought it would be nice to start there, just saying that out loud. Because I feel like if we look in that direction, we're always going to get the answers that we need. And if we get a sense of that, we'll get less preoccupied with what comes out of the storage system, the supercomputer that's basically been storing away narratives from the moment we opened our eyes and our five senses started experiencing the world. But it's kind of like, that's just stuff that we've made up along the way. You know, and it's very cool that we have that capacity. But it's kind of not, it's not the side on which our bread is buttered in a way, because the bigger picture is that intelligence. And that's kind of for me is where we get inspiration where we get new ideas where we get new thoughts and, and for me, as I say, What I like about it in the context of a relationship with people who get into difficulty, they tend to look in the direction of the supercomputer, the conceptual mind, because that's the storage system of narratives. But beyond that, the bigger picture is kind of like, that's your essential nature. That's how you really glue together. That's how you connect how we kind of all connect. But as a couple, it's really good to sort of know that. That's always the default setting for us.

Rohini Ross: 7:13

You did a really beautiful job here of pointing to the impersonal, and really holding that big picture. And when I was listening to you during the session, this story came up in my mind that I thought would be really helpful for making what you were saying more tangible, and sort of bringing more of the messiness of the human element to it. Because sometimes it's hard for people to translate that big picture into what what does that look like in everyday life? So I give a very fresh and real example from everyday life.

Angus Ross: 7:50

Yes, you, you need a bit of human mess to amplify a point sometimes what we all do not you personally.

Rohini Ross: 8:04

So this happened to me yesterday, where it was the day before. So there was yesterday, but the day before yesterday, our eldest daughter was not. She'd worked a really long day. And then there was a fire on Topanga Canyon. So it was shut shut. And she called us saying traffic stop, which they do. And she was really, in her conceptual mind sped up, angry, frustrated, not feeling well just wanted to get home and she was probably like 5,10 minutes from home, but nothing was happening. And so I said to her, oh, well, that's fine. You know, this happens. Sometimes they shut the canyon, just go back and go up old Topanga go around the horn and come home that way, you'll probably get back that way if they've shut the canyon there. And so she did that. But I didn't know this, but they shut the canyon at Mulholland and PCH because of the fire. So not only did she go this other route, which everybody else was doing, so it was taking forever, but then by the time she got them all and they wouldn't let it so took about three hours before she got home. And she was and then she called us which from Mulholland realizing she wasn't gonna get it and she was just livid. She was so angry. And she was the words that were coming out of her mouth was almost like I had purposely told her to go, you know, I've purposely wanted it to go wrong for her and I and I took it personally. I just felt hurt. My feelings got hurt. And I felt like, you know, I wasn't doing anything wrong. I was just trying to help you why screaming at me, and so I got reacted with her. And then you know, I could see how he's just getting into my conceptual mind. So the next day things have settled down. I thought, you know, we'll go to lunch. We'll just kind of build rapport that way. So we went out to lunch, had a really nice lunch. We didn't talk about anything that happened. And then when we got home after being in a really nice Usually she starts to talk about what happened yesterday. And she starts to kind of criticize how I showed up. And I took it personally. And I just again, I went in, my feelings got hurt. I got into that what Angus is talking about the memory. And I and I said to her, I said, Listen, I'm reactive right now. And I can't be in this conversation. But she didn't want me to leave the conversation, because she felt like I was abandoning her if I left the conversation. And I said, you know, the best that I can. And then I got really, I felt hopeless. I felt down and like, I think we need a mediator. Like, I don't think we can do this. And she's like, what do you do for a living? Why are you saying you need a mediator, like, thtas amazing. Oh, my God, like, I don't know, I'm reactive, I can't help myself. It's like, I don't know what to do. I feel like I can't do this with you. And so I just got really low, I got really in a low mood. And, and I knew like, even though she wanted me to be there, I couldn't say anything. Because if I said anything, I knew it wasn't gonna be good. And so I'm like, there's no point in this. So I said, I have to leave. So when we separated, she didn't like it, I'm sure but we separate it. And I was stirred up. I'm in this, like, Oh, my God, you know, maybe she's like, got a diagnosed mental health issue, I can't help her. We're gonna, you know, I'm just like, going down this rabbit hole. And so then I texted Angus flurry of text to him. And he's like, Oh, just don't take it personally. He said to me yesterday, I'm like, Oh, god, that's not helping me. So then I just, you know, did some emails and someone else reached out to me about something. So I just took my mind off of that. And when Mike took my mind off of it, my conceptual mind just kind of relax. As soon as it relaxes, we get more open to that deeper intelligence that's inside of us. Because as Angus said, as part of us, it's who we are. And so it was probably 30 minutes later. Not very long. And all of a sudden, now my mind is open, and I'm feeling warm towards her. I'm feeling love towards her. I'm no longer feeling like I can't do it. Like, Oh, I should just go talk to her. My head's going, Oh, no, no, no, it's just gonna start it all up again. I'm like, No, I should just go talk to her. And so from that space, what, you know, you're talking about Angus' terms of like being connected and open to God or the intelligence behind life. From that space, I went to her. And I said, you know, I'm willing to try again, if you're willing to try again, and, and so from that space, we had this very simple conversation, where I was able to hear what it was that she was trying to say to me, which was that she wanted me to help her calm down. She was like, so upset that she was reaching out for help. And when I got reactive, I was like, throwing fuel on a fire. So she got more reactive. And she said, I understand that I need to get better at not, you know, attacking. But can you understand that all I need at those times, is help regulating because I'm really I struggle with that. And when she said it that way, I'm like, Oh, yeah, of course. And I said, but what happens is, when you lead with the attack, I'm human, sometimes my feelings get hurt. And if my feelings get hurt, I'm not going to be able to do that for you. And she's like, Okay, I get that. And I can work on getting better at that. But if maybe when you first hear the sound of my voice, and you recognize that I'm dysregulated, could you try to help me that before I've even said anything? And I'm like, Yeah, I can do that. And I and it reminded me when she was a baby, because she has a very sensitive nervous system. She would not sleep, she would not sleep, she would cry an awful lot. And so we would swaddle her. And we would wrap her really tightly, because it was soothing. And then we'd bounce her, and she'd go to sleep. And I said, Oh, I got to try and swaddle you with words. And she's like, yes, that's what I need. But I got there because I just was able to let go of all of the personal thinking that I had, and just get back into my heart. And to me, being in my heart is equivalent to being connected with that deeper energy. To me, the feeling of love is one of the hallmarks of being in connection with that. And so I went from feeling like, this is completely beyond my paygrade I don't care what I do for a living. I can't do this with my own daughter. I said, That's why surgeons don't operate on their members. It's like I can't do it with you. But I went from there, the depths of like, this is just not ever gonna work to like oh, having a really straightforward conversation. Where we could both acknowledge our limitations and recognize how we could both do our best to be better. But what felt good to both of us. And to me, that's the difference between trying to figure something out from the conceptual mind where my feelings are hurt, I'm taking it personally, I'm judging her to letting all of that golike it just didn't even exist anymore. to seeing like, I love her, how are we going to work this out, and just having an open mind.

Angus Ross: 15:33

So, what I really love about how we kick things off here is that, I guess you would anticipate based on what happened on the previous recording, that we were going to come in and like, oh, there's this big dark secret. And you know, it's going to be a case of like how quickly you're going to be able to get this off your chest Mateo, because Alicia is sitting there with bated breath. And we, we go in a whole different direction. And we start off, all guns blazing on the teaching front being very philosophical. Me pointing to the impersonal, and then you giving this beautiful story about the impersonal and the value of looking in that direction. And I just think that that's a great way to, to really anchor that in. And make that be a big part of this experience. It has to be fundamental in this experience of going through an intensive for a couple to really get on that table on that page, table page.

Rohini Ross: 16:42

Table. Reading table,

Angus Ross: 16:45

I don't know why I said table. You know what I mean?

Rohini Ross: 16:51

Now I do.

Angus Ross: 16:53

And the other thing that I think is worth mentioning here is that in us approaching it this way, I think gave them plenty of room to get their mind settled so that they could share whatever they needed to share from a mindset that was comfortable, and open.

Rohini Ross: 17:16

And now we'll hear from Mateo

Mateo: 17:22

So I think we're really here because like I spoke to Angus and weve been separated out for like, two, two months, two and a half months, and started to understand some things about myself and taken some other experiences as well to understand that, but I came to the conclusion that I never really gave Alicia and I's relationship, the proper like, foundation to build on because I wasn't like 100% honest with you know, what had occurred with me in life. And not sure if I ever really wanted to share it. But I also didn't think there was like, a proper time to share it. And also, it's just difficult to talk about, but yeah, I when I was younger, I did I was sexually abused by one kid that was two years older than me. And it went on for a while. But it created this. This I doubt in my mind of who I am this, this shame this. There's so many just like confusion, so much different stuff that I went on that I never was fully comfortable with who I was and like telling people anything and it really prevented though, like Aliciaand I's relationship from from flourishing, because she didn't have that understanding of like, what I had gone through and, you know, she's seen some guy that comes home and, you know, seems angry and disconnected and just, you know, thinking and like still carrying all that weight all these years and and so, you know, it's something that I it was really hard for me to struggle with being in this relationship with Alicia and and it costs so much other different stuff like within me. But when Alicia and I did separate I I did have relationships with other people not emotionally but just like physically just like learning about myself and it's not something that I ever wanted to do. But I think through it all I've kind of learned that I'm okay to like live with who I am and guess just want Alicia to be able to, to understand who I am and to be able to live with some of the things that I've done. You know, and No, it's really hard. It just is liberating telling you. Angus is the only person I've ever told, but it definitely felt like a weight off my chest. But now it's like, this other thing is like gray. Okay, you know what, you could have shared that with Alicia without doing all that stuff, but I just, I don't know, I wasn't I didn't know how it'd be received, I thought I could just deal with it. But just some things that you can't, you should be open and honest about. And I regret, you know, everything that's, that's happened the past two and a half months, except for Shawn, I finally, you know, being on a pretty decent foot. But I don't know where to go from here with Alicia and I, I mean, I know what I want. But, you know, I just, you know, it's for, it's for Alicia to forgive now, like what I've done since then, but just hopefully knowing that, you know, the things that I did do, you know, came from, like, a really hurtful place within me. And, you know, I mean, she knows I've dealt with thoughts of suicide for like, the longest time ever. And I definitely think that that was a big proponent of all those feelings. But this is something I should have probably shared earlier to, just didn't know how to feel so shameful for now, what I have done, like, put, you know, the sexual abuse behind me, but now it's like, you know, I fucked up the last two months, and I did it out of trying to have more understanding for myself and, you know, confusion about the relationship that Alicia and I had, whether it was going to work, whether it was in but then, you know, the realization was like, I didn't give it the, the right place and the right foundation, again, to build a, you know, a good relationship of openness, honesty, understanding, and I just totally mess that up.

Rohini Ross: 22:04

At this point, Mateo isn't quite ready to address Alicia directly. So he's talking to you and I, at this point in time, and we just really allow the conversation to continue and have Alicia respond.

Alicia: 22:22

Sorry, that that was your experience. Because that's not cool. But as you probably imagine, I've read every scenario in my head. And I do forgive you. Because I know that the shitstorm that you were going through, probably wasn't fun to go through. They can forgive me for like, all of it and just leaving the past them as they were, when we make mistakes.

Mateo: 23:04

Just never wanted to hurt you, you know, and, like, you know, we separated everything. I knew it hurt you. But I didn't think it was anything compared to like, what I was hurting inside. But like right now, I just I just wish I could have gone back in time and just been honest, so that none of this ever happened. You know? I just don't want it to like I was really afraid for it's like taints our relationship moving forward.

Alicia: 23:37

I think it would have given me more understanding.

Mateo: 23:42

I know, I just didn't understand myself. You know, like, I didn't know. I know anything.

Alicia: 23:55

Weeks ago, before I did start going to church and everything I said to you said it to Lacey. If he hooks up with anybody else, like I'm done forever. I don't care. I'm going through church. I really found things I never even thought I knew about myself where I gained patience and I've gained compassion and I've gained a lot of understanding. I have a lot of work to do. But I know it's something that you and I spoke about the I knew that this wasn't him like everything that was going on. And I gained an understanding for the chaos and your struggle to understand that there was something bigger happening that you I don't think even thought like knew about like I thought it was gonna take me a year to have some sort of a come to Jesus moment or some sort of a realization. As I said, I put it already in my head, and I forgave it weeks ago because It's not a burden I want to bear up like being upset. But I've also like told you like, I've tried to hate you. I've wanted to hate you. And I can't do it.

Mateo: 25:25

Yeah, I'm just really sorry. I mean, sorry, is like a strong enough word. And just regret. And it's just like another regret I'm going to have to live with for the rest of my life was just like the fact that weight alone is to just kind of tired of being in that bubble of, you know, just shame and who am I?

Alicia: 25:59

You may have done things to me to hurt me. But I can recognize that what you feel from it versus being on the receiving end is probably 100 times worse.

Mateo: 26:21

I mean, the being with other people, being separated hurts me more than like, everything that I shared about like my childhood. Like that. That's nothing compared to like, what I'm feeling I feel so dirty and like bad and a lot of shame and you know, I just like I said, I wish we just could go back and be honest with you then about everything. So I would never feel uncomfortable in our relationship to you know, just that didn't allow me to just be present, you know, and it just took a while for me to get there to like, like figure out like, Hey, man, this is something you've been carrying around forever and it's really like fucking you up and you know, and it's ruining relationships for you and you're you know, you're ruining yourself like I when I say like, I felt like I was like slowly dying like those real like I really felt like I was dying every day. And yeah, like our relationship whatever, but I think it had to do more. No, it wasn't the relationship that was killing me it was like not having a partner that I I had shared everything with so they can understand where I'm coming from and and i don't know it was just it was really bizarre for for me to be there for you emotionally when he needed and you wanting me there every day and me not being able to have the same or feel that way because there was like this one thing that I hadn't shared but it was like everything,like for me it was literally everything.

Rohini Ross: 28:22

That's the burden of a secret that's toxic

Mateo: 28:30

Wish I could go back and not do the things I did in the past few months but if he gives me any hope that like it, it's what led me to you know, want to have this level of honesty with a partner like I wish I could have done it a different way but I didn't so I don't know what it means for the future. But I do hope that like we can keep going like I've been having nothing but fun with you like the past couple days and weeks and just...

Alicia: 29:16

How can I guarantee that this is not something that's going to happen again that one day there's an atomic bomb that goes off and I'm blindsided again. Because what I went through and I understand all your feelings and what you've done your journey and I really I get it but I also had feelings that got destroyed.

Gonzo: 29:42

Just being able to be honest with you. And also with myself I mean it doesn't seem like much now because it's out in the open but fuck this thing is kept me up at night. Like it's kept me away from like, doing things from being happy on like holidays. Like, I think my whole life not just like, you and I but like, dude, like forever be like stole a piece of my childhood, like my innocence. And it was just so it was really rough. And then I just like that like feeling of acceptance of like what happened and not addressing it just allowed me to, like, get in different relationships where it's wasn't like so hardcore, but like, it was pretty hardcore too. And it was just bad, you know, and I think he kind of see it like with some of my friendships or just let people like, run over me. And she's like, it became a standard in my life just like Yeah, dude, that's what you got to do to be accepted as that you just got to be willing to be abused, like physically or mentally just like, whatever. You know, and sometimes within our own relationship, you know, and it, it got like, heavy, like, I felt that same burden in our relationship. And it really, like when I started like detaching, I was like, Dude is like the same level of abuse that I'm going through like these other people, but like, I'm married to this person and, and, like, there was like, a level of, of uncertainty there too. That was like, Dude, are you just like, addicted to these abusive relationships, like what's going on.

Alicia: 31:37

But it did feel like there was something wrong with me when you decided to leave. And then going through the whole like reflection and just being alone and being by yourself and try to find like who you are, and be strong. Through this process, is what I just finally started seeing, like, I'm not this monster, I'm not abusive, I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not a just like everything that was said about me like that I just that I blow up about everything in this notes, like, no, I actually found like, who I truly am. And I'm, I am a very, very calm person. But I'm also hyper and I like to have fun, and I like to be full of life and feed off of people's energies. And I'm also human to go through the motions of like, shit sucks at work, and you want to go home to your safe space and just like, divulge everything. And you'd be like, Whoa, this happened just to like, let it go and get off your chest. But that's who I've always been, because I can't keep things bottled up inside. So a lot of what has transpired was me realizing that like, I'm not made out to be who I was. And then I finally gained the confidence in like, not caring whether or not people thought of me, like some of your friends, like, I don't care if they think I'm dramatic, or that I blow up. It's like, this is who I am. And I'm confident in who I am. And that was one of the biggest realizations that I came to terms with. Because for the first three, four weeks, I mean, I was just like, everything's wrong with me. I mean, I catch myself sobbing on the bathroom floor, like hysterical. But I channeled in very different ways. And I noticed I was going into the rabbit hole of depression at one point, like, I scared myself enough to be like, you need to get out of bed. And so I transformed by going and working out every single day at 5am. And that sort of building endorphins and building confidence and building a lot of like, less holding on to what other people say or do or thing because I don't care. And one of the things was during the earthquake. I remember texting my two best friends and being like, Oh my God, is there an earthquake? And I was like, Oh my God being so dramatic. Like, like, I thought of you in that sense. It was like God would think I'm being dramatic and it's like, oh, no, there was an earthquake that hit like you're not a dramatic person. You sometimes take drama in things but I think with gaining all of that confidence and understanding of who you are and the compassion that you have within I forgave you a long time ago.

Gonzo: 34:25

You are dramatic and super dramatic. Chicken Little but I you know, I married you because I I'm okay with you. It was me that I wasn't okay with and taken 30 years well, not 30 years. What is it like 20,22 years to figure all this out? It's been hard and I'm sorry, I put that stuff on you. Get me wrong. batshit crazy sometimes, but I I mean, give you the space to be able to be batshit crazy and it be okay because I was so psychotic in my own shit, you know, and I don't want you to change from who you are at all. Anything I want you to just be yourself and just allow me to, to love you like, I know that I can. It's just I never gave the opportunity just because again, I just had a different side of me and never wanted my worlds to collide. You know, I had a secret life that I was living. And I didn't want anyone to know about it. But that's not a relationship, you're supposed to know everything about your partner. And that's where I really fucked up to.

Alicia: 35:48

Do you think by disclosing everything now? Like you can be open to, like, be open to open heart and love? And

Gonzo: 35:58

yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you asked, like, how do you know this isn't gonna happen again, it's like, well, I've never been honest with someone before. Like about this. Like, I've been countless therapists, my parents sent me to anger management, like all this crazy shit. And no one knows anything. No one does. And Angus was literally the first person I've ever told in my entire life. And I'm hoping that that that for me was like, that realization of like, when everything happened was kind of like rock bottom. And I'm really, I'm hopeful that it's like a turning of a corner for myself and my own being. Not sure that I want to share it with everyone, you know, I'm not just gonna call my friends and be like, hey, by the way, like, you know, this happened like, no, but for my partner to, to know, you know, where I write come from stuff, I think that's all I really, really want. I think that's what people really want is just a partner that has their trust, and they can have their trust. And I just, I never let myself get there. And that's, that was the first mistake.

Alicia: 37:15

I can't say I understand that you what you went through, because I don't think anybody should have to deal with that. But I understand how it molded you and affected you. In a very empathetic towards it.

Gonzo: 37:31

It just sucks.

Alicia: 37:36

In regards to the infidelity who does know?

Mateo: 37:44

Who does know about the infidelity? Jaren and Matt know. But again, for me, it was never an emotional connection with anyone. It was just a physical thing. And it was something that I was learning. It wasn't like your standard like, yeah, it wasn't anything normal. Making sure.

Alicia: 38:17

I have been throw a lot of therapy in the last year to understand enough that people go through things and people make mistakes. And I think I'm not above anybody not to like forgive things. So I'm not saying that I'm not going to forgive me if any of us are like,

Gonzo: 38:38

I just really hope you can forgive me and not hold it against me at any point.

Alicia: 38:41

Do you understand the damage that's going to do to me to hold on to it and hurt by it? Like I'm not it's called self care and self love. Like I can't hold on to something like that. I held on too long with like, all of like, thinking everything was wrong with me. And that's why you left and being upset with you. That's why I told you like I tried to hate you. I tried so badly because like, if I could hate him, then I can shut the door and never care. But my heart never let me do that. And it just because I had to like let go of all those burdens. And so like, don't want to think about your thing ever again. Honest to God, I don't, I do believe in the spiritual guidance, that internal navigation system. And that's all told me you let it go and but for your own sanity in your own heart in your own liberating feelings to live life. I don't want to look at you that way. I mean, it sucks. to even have you admit it. I even put it in my head already. But like I told you before, I was like I don't think you're a bad person. And I don't think that things are unforgivable. And I'm willing to give you a chance. If you

Mateo: 40:00

Sure,

Alicia: 40:01

yeah and rebuild, rebuild the trust, and

Gonzo: 40:09

I can try to make it better than ever. Like, that's all I can do, I can't tell you that I'm going to text you every five minutes, but definitely be honest with you about everything and, and hopefully not be in such a negative space you know or shut off when you're trying to talk to me because I'm so tired for the day and then all this other shit like, that's all I can really give to you is, is coming in actually with an open mind knowing that everything's on the table that I can do. I was really picturing her like, trying to kill me.

Alicia: 41:02

forget who I am. And think that you forget that I do have a very kind heart. And I've always been so forgiving of you.

Angus Ross: 41:13

I don't think there's there's really that much for us to say at this point. After listening to that, because I feel like really all that we were doing, I say all that we were doing, I think we were doing a lot in this respect, but we created a very safe container for them to be able to share authentically and openly with one another. And that was, for me that was profound. So I think that it's important for us to say how we feel like we set up a safe container. And that was very apparent by how open and vulnerable they both were. In a situation that was probably very uncomfortable for both of them.

Rohini Ross: 41:57

Yeah, I think they did a really beautiful job of sharing together. And Mateo was able to speak to Alicia directly as they had their interaction.

Angus Ross: 42:07

Yeah, and neither of them were holding back.

Gonzo: 42:16

We went to church today. And for going to church, and you know, the kids like going to church, you might hear a good message or whatever. And they never had a connection with like, this, like God, right? This, say corporate God that they, you know, create this entity of Christianity or Catholicism. But today, like, you know, after talking to you, and it was like, the first time I'd been to church, like, everything started to feel warm, and like real. And I gave it an opportunity. And it was just really, it was really bizarre for me, like, I don't try to look it but like, there's so much hate, it's just in me, try to be the nicest person, but there's just so much hate. And it stems from, you know, what I went through with, you know, being abused, and like my dad leaving super early, like, he's just so much hate. And I'm just hoping that like, with everything on the table and being able to express like, how I feel openly and not feeling this way of, you know, Did I do something wrong? sort of thing. I'm hoping that it does, you know, open up our relationship to, to something like, much better that, you know, we both desired in a relationship and in and a marriage. You know, but I can't say that you're 100% at fault, because you know, you You ain't crazy, but me not being honest with you is probably what drove you to, to, you know, some some out whatever, freak outs or whatever it may have been like, I know that I reflected on that and realize like, yeah, you know what, you weren't the one that went crazy, but you also didn't like allow the other person to be sane at the same time. So I do see that?

Alicia: 44:13

Thank you. cuz I've said this to you before. I don't know if it resonated, but people react to the ways that they're treated. Yeah. And a lot of times when I'd have blow ups, like even in front of your friends, it's like, oh, my god, they're picking on me. And I'm telling you, I'm sensitive, and no one's listening to me. So now I'm gonna snap at you. And it's not for everybody here because I'm like, I don't want to be picked on, you know, and that's, that was my right and is it the right way? No, you know, and there's even going into this like I did find my faith with everything and the inner guidance of the odd and I've prayed. The day that you came over. And you were chanting and enjoyment and chanting and divorce. Now you wanted us to be done and you are shocking. I like walked away with the fact that I was so calm. It was like because I have prayed to just be like, just take things as an adult and not be reactive. And it's like the same thing that's happening today. Like you're shocked with my behaviors, but this is who I am. You just gotta be honest and open with me.

Mateo: 45:20

Yeah. It is shocking. Calm, serial killer, shocking. We got off on Bundy Street. Drivers are really happy how it's all being taken in. And it's not, I'm not going to take this for granted, either. I want you to know that this wasn't like a whole machine until everything's she knows why I was asshole like, no, it's like, I really want a family I want, you know, a life with you. And the only way to do is be honest. Yeah.

Angus Ross: 46:26

So I don't think there's a coincidence, in the fact that he's sharing about how his experience in church is having him experience, I guess, the intelligence behind life, God in a whole new way. Because I think that, I don't know, I want to conclude that going through this experience, he's had a shift in consciousness. And it's a case of, you know, I'm sure our consciousness shifts and fluctuates. But I think once something is seen, it can't be unseen. So he's seen something on a fairly deep level. And I think that now that's opened him up. And I think that I'm burdening himself with his dark secret, that he's probably this is how he's viewed it for all these years, has given him more of an opening, more room for him to experience, love, and all those good qualities that come with looking in the direction of truth, and honesty, and the impersonal. And I think that that is borne out by his experience in church this morning, or that morning, that, that he's now able to appreciate the impersonal so much more. And I think that he's opening up exponentially on that front.

Rohini Ross: 47:54

Yeah, makes me feel very hopeful for the relationship, because by carrying that secret and feeling the weight of all of that shame, he was an open hearted. And as you say, with him, being able to unburden himself that allowed himself to open his heart, and to be better able to feel the love that's inside of him. That experience he had in church was not something going into him from church. That was him having an experience of his innate state, his true nature. And so he's more open to that now.

Angus Ross: 48:28

Yeah. And I think that part of the condition of holding a secret in that way. The defense mechanism to that is just a state of judgment, that that that probably has been perpetual for him for many years. And as that jazz judgment dissipates, as we say, there's there's much more room for love to take its place.

Rohini Ross: 49:01

This is a new foundation. But we really are committed to supporting you with integrating that new foundation and having it get momentum and traction in your lives going forward.

Mateo: 49:13

Yeah, so what does that look like though? Cuz I mean, you know, I say everything that like went on. I don't want to really relive everything. I just want Alicia and I to build on like, you know, new foundation, right? to like, work on moving forward. I don't really want to relive anything.

Rohini Ross: 49:34

Yeah. That's a really good point, because that would be traumatizing and not healthy. Yeah. So I think that's something to say out loud here and have that kind of as an understood like, it's good to be honest. But it doesn't need to be rehashed. So it's like, I think that and I was going to ask you as well if there was any additional questions that either one of you had for each other for today before we finish up just so that this is kind of like Let's get everything out on the table, and just really sort of start from a clean slate. But your instinct Mateo is really healthy, especially with traumatic experiences, it's not helpful to go back into the reliving of the rehashing what's gonna be most helpful for you now is to not carry the burden and the weight of the secret and withholding.

Alicia: 50:27

You know, Alicia has a secret that she's gonna be holding back from her friends or, you know, whoever, like, I don't want that either. Like, I know what that burden is like, and It's secret. It's not my burden, not my secret,

Mateo: 50:43

But me having been with, you know, like, that's, that's something that you're with now. And I don't, I don't mind if you tell people like yeah, you know, guns that are separated? Yeah, you did some stuff. Like, I, I can't have you though, going through that.

Alicia: 51:06

It's my choice to share what I want.

Mateo: 51:08

I know, but I also know what it's like to, to hold something in.

Alicia: 51:13

Yeah. But I've always said to you, you're my best friend. And you're the one that I share everything with, I don't care to share everything else with anybody else. So not gonna go shop on the rooftops like, oh, god cheated on me like, no. Okay, I think you said everything that you needed to say and that I, I know enough to know enough. And that's it. I don't want to go back into the past. I don't want to live there. I want to look forward in future. And I recognize that you made a mistake. And I'm big enough to are bold enough maybe to understand that that was a mistake and move forward from it in the hopes that this has never to transpire again.

Angus Ross: 52:11

You know, when I first heard him talk about the need for there not to be any rehashing about what had happened. There was a part of me thinking, Oh, he's just trying to sort of give himself an easy life. But in actual fact, as he continued to articulate his concerns, it was evident to me that actually, there was some wisdom in that what he was saying, and I think you picked up on that. And what you shared with what was really valuable about how it's important to to, to reboot here and move forward.

Rohini Ross: 52:50

And in this next segment, you do address how rehashing can kind of come up, when we get into a low mood.

Angus Ross: 53:04

This has been quite an a seismic eruption, let's say that there will be some aftershocks that you know, both of you will at points, we'll get into probably a low mood or low state of mind. And you'll probably, you know, fill your ear, you might even want to speak from that place. But it's kind of like, there is an opportunity, and we'll talk about this, you know, when we do one on ones is to not take that personally, because it's just our state of mind is dip for whatever reason. And that, you know, eventually we will start to get an understanding of that's all that's going on. And we will now be led by, you know, this new truth that surfaced. It's like I love this idea of foundations, because it's almost like you've retrofitted foundations into a relationship that was built on. I guess without that, that that level of truth. You could say those foundations were pretty unstable. But now you've kind of like put in really stable foundations to move forward. And it's kind of a you look in that direction. And you don't take the illusionist of the conceptual mind so seriously, when that crops up, which is when we get caught up, we all get caught up in the I get caught up. Probably got caught up this morning for a little bit, I don't know. But it's like we don't take it personally. It doesn't doesn't need to be something that festers or becomes a problem. But there will be you know, don't expect like you they will have those moments where you get caught up.

Mateo: 54:29

What does that looks like getting caught up.

Angus Ross: 54:31

Getting caught up is like where we you know, for whatever reason we find ourselves in a low mode, and then we go looking for a fall guy we go looking for someone to pin it on. And then it's an opportunity for us to not take that seriously. It's just the low mode looking for a for a guy a low mood looking to articulate itself. Yeah, it's not who either of you are is not who we are. who we are. is is is is a design. That's great. In, I guess I could get religious here and say in the form of God, but in a sense, it's kind of like you could use those words is that consciousness is we're part of that design, we're all a part of that design. And that is our essential nature, one of balance, harmony and an innate well being. And we look to that we don't look to what we stored away in our supercomputer.

Rohini Ross: 55:30

I don't think we can ever teach or share too much of low moods, because they're so impactful on relationships, or they can be so impactful on relationships. But when we have an understanding about how our perspective shifts, when we're in a low mood, it's a tremendous game changer for relationships. And I can really hear how Mateo is concerned about what might show up when Alicia is in a low mood. But if he can really grasp and understand that, that's just what happens to human beings, and he doesn't need to take it personally, it doesn't mean anything about him, is just a reflection of her state of mind, it'll be so much easier for him to write that out. And when it does get to him when he does take it personally, if he can also understand that it's not about her, he's just experiencing his own judgments against himself, and that he doesn't need to take those seriously, either. That's another game changer. And as painful as this learning experience has been for both of you, it's you know, from, from a neutral standpoint, it's all part of moving towards health and growth that how the relationship was functioning previously, it couldn't grow any more than that, because of the the secret that was being held. Because in order to grow, that would have to be revealed. And that was you weren't ready for that it was too scary, understandable, given the enormity of how that felt inside of you that it just didn't look possible to do that. But But through this whole experience, that growth has been happening, and what Angus is saying about that foundation being there now, like To me, this is the unfolding of the learning. And as painful as it is to learn this way. What's important is the learning, what's important is that you are freed up inside in a way that you haven't been ever since that happened to you. And that you feel that and that what I also hear is that you couldn't open your heart, you know, you're having to hold it together, you couldn't be vulnerable in ways. And so now, just, you know, you feeling softer and more warm and church this morning, to me is reflective of you feeling like that exhale, and that you can be open again. And that you can learn to trust that you can learn that you can be safe in relationship and that relationship would look very scary from the foundation that you were coming at it from. But now there's the opportunity to really experience something new, and different and fresh. And you can do that with someone who clearly cares a great deal about you and is wanting to learn and grow to. And that you know, that's really what you both want. But with with that extra internal space, you're going to have the capacity to learn in a way that you couldn't learn before. And that's going to support the relationship. And rather than having sort of that negative spiral that was going on before where Alicia would get really reactive and you would be cut off. It's like with that space, you get to create something that's positively reinforcing. And yes, you know, Aliciagonna still have her personality traits, you're gonna still have yours, you might need a little quieter than she needs it. But it won't be the extreme polarization that you guys were going through, it'll be easier to navigate those differences, and to not take them personally. In our work with couples, we often see when they perceive that they're in a relationship crisis, it's actually really an opportunity for healing and growth that shows up in that packaging. And sometimes couples can think that it means that the relationship is over that it's time to move on. And that can be the case at times But no matter what, whether relationship stays together, or whether a couple decides to separate, there's always learning and growth available during those times.

Angus Ross: 1:00:13

And the fact is, what do we what are we here for, as human beings, spiritual beings having this human experience, if not to grow and learn, and I guess, relationships is probably going to be one of the greatest areas for growth and learning.

Mateo: 1:00:32

You should feel safe, I'm going to be faithful to you, I don't ever want to go through this again. And I want, I want to be the best partner to you that you can get. And I believe I have it within me and within us to provide that environment for each other. Just been really shitty. I really hope that we can just grow from this and not look back and just forward. Yeah.

Angus Ross: 1:01:12

The other thing that's so cool about this is that it frees up so much creative bandwidth for you as an individual and you too, as a couple,

Mateo: 1:01:21

I do feel it, just kind of blown away still? Okay, I thought I was gonna take this one to the grave with me.

Rohini Ross: 1:01:35

That piece about self forgiveness is key. You know, like, that's something that you get to experience for yourself. And Angus is gonna support you with that, that's available for you, because I know you're, you're unburdened that there's still some burden. Now that you know, this has been shared. But really, there's a clean slate available, there really is a clean slate available, where it's fresh, and you don't have to hold on to anything, and you don't have to feel bad about your behavior. I'm not condoning. But I know how unhealthy it is to have to live an experience of holding on to this. And just as Alicia was saying, she's not going to hold on to and she's going to set herself free. that's available for you to try. Yeah. And it's, it's you know, it's just one of those things where you get to lay the burden down. But you can't force a you can't make yourself it will just be revealed to you. That that's possible and available to you. refreshed and renewed.Yeah.

Angus Ross: 1:02:55

The other thing that occurs to me to say, and, and maybe this is the intelligence working through you guys too, is that there's that old adage, that truth will always find a way I don't know where that comes from. It's probably biblical, I don't know. But in a sense, it's kind of like, you could say that all of this is a blessing, however painful and uncomfortable it was go through the separation. This allowed you to get to this point where you're able to unburden yourself, and finally, release this story that has really been bothering you for a long, long time, and has probably been very toxic for you to hold on to. And now it's out in the open that has to be again, I say and reiterate that gives you so much free bandwidth now. It's been occupied for a long time.

Mateo: 1:03:41

I hope so I know, it's it's felt better since we talked.

Angus Ross: 1:03:51

The adage is, in fact, the truth will set you free. And it is biblical. And I'm pretty sure that this is what Jesus said to the disciples. I don't know which particular gospel, it would be documented in. But I can say that now certainty is something that Jesus said to His disciples. I don't know if I'm looking for a pat on the back. As far as that's concerned, well done and thank you.

Rohini Ross: 1:04:27

And I think it was in his is john a gospel.

Angus Ross: 1:04:31

JOHN is the gospel. I think it's in

Rohini Ross: 1:04:33

the Gospel According to john on how you say,

Angus Ross: 1:04:36

Yes, I think john is perhaps most people's favorite gospel. If memories if memory serves me correct.

Rohini Ross: 1:04:44

Is there a favorite gospel?

Angus Ross: 1:04:46

I think so. I think John, I did I didn't realize I did religious knowledge. I got religious knowledge at school. I think I can vaguely remember

Rohini Ross: 1:05:00

Back to the truth shall set you free. That, to me points to that capacity when we let go of judgment and when we see the truth of who we are that we are undamaged and cannot be tainted by our thoughts, feelings, behaviors that who we are our innate essence is always pure. I think that's what sets us free. And just when we think we're in the home straight, Mateo's never wanted to disappoint with a curveball.

Mateo: 1:05:51

So think there was should spend some time like, apart, but like I said, I want to like to take you like on dates and stuff, you know, should get back to that. Are you okay with that?

Alicia: 1:06:05

Yeah. I mean, it's our journey, we'll have to figure it out.

Mateo: 1:06:08

Like, how do you feel? Are you sad right now you seem like you kind of want to cry?

Alicia: 1:06:12

No, I'm not sad. I'm more like, I feel free in the sense of like, you came out and opened up because for a long time, I thought it was me.Yeah, that I'm not like this terrible person in your life.

Mateo: 1:06:33

No. One will be fighting to get a terrible person back in their life. No,

Alicia: 1:06:42

I'm not gonna lie. Like, I have a million questions. But for my own mental sanity, I don't even want to ask any of them. Like, I don't want to know. My human nature's does have to protect myself. Like, I don't want to.

Rohini Ross: 1:07:00

I'm curious. what are your thought you said? Do you think it would be good to spend more time apart? I'm curious, what are your thoughts are around all of that?

Mateo: 1:07:10

I mean, I know that she's gonna have a lot of questions. And I'm not sure that being together in the same household right now. And you may be having these questions like to just, you know, I don't know, for me, it's gonna, like, maybe some time to heal for that.

Rohini Ross: 1:07:35

I think, you know what I would say? Like, that's something to really check out. Cuz you're kind of assuming, and that might be absolutely accurate. But I want to, like, I don't want to make an assumption. So what what are your thoughts on that?

Alicia: 1:07:48

I mean, if, if that's what you want to do to make yourself feel comfortable, then that's your choice. Like I said, for my own mental sanity, my own heart, for me for my own self care, I can't go there. Because that hurts. You don't want

Gonzo: 1:08:08

If you are describing the hurt though, like I, I've been through and I don't want you holding on to that.

Alicia: 1:08:14

But that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't want to address it or like, talk about it, or have it come to fruition and like, be this energy with in our relationship. Like that's past. I want to be away from all that. Like, I don't know, I'm going to ask you questions. I don't want to know anymore.

Mateo: 1:08:34

Okay. Just, again, I know what it's like. to fucking you put it like the dying within yourself. And I don't want that for you.

Rohini Ross: 1:08:50

Yeah, I don't think I'm not hearing you saying it's like that famous show.

Alicia: 1:08:53

I don't think it is. I think like I said, weeks ago, I put it into my head that you've already done this, and spoke with God a lot and prayed about it and gave it gave up that burden. Because I don't want to feel that pain. And so I have to forgive it. And I have, I'm fine to walk and move on from it. And like I said, I'm not going to ask you, I'm not going to bring you up, because it also hurts me. So in order to take care of myself, I'm telling you very point blank, like shutting the book on that story and don't want to talk about it again.

Rohini Ross: 1:09:36

But you're not feeling like it's a burden to do that. Right? You're not feeling like you're holding on, you're feeling like the healthy thing for me to do is like I have the information, but I'm not gonna dwell on it because that's not helping. Yeah, 100% I feel like I was dwelling on it a moment because I don't know the truth. Now, I think hearing the truth and just having the knowledge of it, I'm just like, Alright, got it, understand it, move on from it. Because I'm gonna take care of myself in this situation also, and that's not gonna help me, it's gonna hurt me. And so, Alicia , on your end, I wanted to, you know, have a little back and forth, or do you want space and time for Mateo? Like, what are you feeling like you need now that he's, you know, shared? What was troubling him and what's happen?

Alicia: 1:10:24

I don't? Um, because I don't believe that that helps a relationship in a marriage. I think too much space creates too much distance, and I can't see how it would work that way. But I don't know. Okay, so you're saying that he needs some space? And you understand that and you respect that? Yes. But for you, you're saying like, Are you saying that you don't want that you don't need it and actually like him to come home? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay, so you'd like him to come home? But if he needs more time, you will understand? All right. So given what she said, What is it that you need them?

Mateo: 1:11:08

I need a little bit of space. But I want to, like take her out and drop her off at home, have a be happy, and then you know, in due time, they come home to a happy household. And, you know,

Alicia: 1:11:23

What' s your timeframe on that.

Mateo: 1:11:32

What's my timeframe?

Alicia: 1:11:35

Like, how long do you think you need more space?

Mateo: 1:11:39

I'd say less than a month, I just want to like be able to take you out, drop you off at home happy and you know, got some fun meals or do something and have a good time and, and just kind of get in that rhythm. You know, and, and yeah, I know, to move back to is going to be the nights for you know, you want to talk about like, work like heavily or whatever, and just kind of want to ease in to, you know, enjoying each other's company. And then, you know, being in a full blown marriage again, where, you know, we're just 24 seven, you know, I just feel like I want to get to the Happy Places first with us. And I think we've been doing a pretty good job of that. Yeah, you know, so I feel like that. It's been making me feel really comfortable. I've enjoyed our time, and I want nothing but you know, every day to be like that, I know that it's not really true, because I trust my kids only have like jobs and stuff. But I do think that, um, you know, that's I want to get there sooner than later. That's for sure.

Rohini Ross: 1:12:58

I remember in the session, that I had a pretty strong internal reaction to this. And I felt it was a huge red flag. And I really couldn't believe my ears when he said this.

Angus Ross: 1:13:11

Yeah, I think that I remember feeling why I felt disappointed because I didn't get, you know, like typical Hollywood ending. We're stretching this out here, another twist and another turn. That was not anticipated. But upon reflection, this is a guy who does risk analysis for a living. And I think that in his mind, and I'm probably I'm sure I thought this at the time that on one hand, I thought this at the time that he is perhaps anticipating that Alicia is is perhaps not realistic when she says that she's gonna move on that she's got such an inquiring and inquisitive mind that she's gonna want to know what happened and might not be able to leave that alone. So I think he's probably thinking, yeah, maybe I'll just hold back for a really move in. Everything's been taken along so beautifully in terms of us going on dates and having dinner all the rest of it. Let's continue this for a little bit more just to be sure that that things aren't going to unfold in another way and go in another direction. Go pear shaped but pear shaped as they say.

Rohini Ross: 1:14:29

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I just didn't get it at the time. Yeah. All of that allows you to blossom and thrive and really live a full life. Like that's the fresh start.

Mateo: 1:14:48

Yeah, I'm hoping like that's the that's the goal of all this, you know. breeze. Yeah, yeah. Not feel constricted. Yeah, you know, that's giving me like a straitjacket. analogy. That's how I feel when I came home. Like, yeah, you played some part, but a lot of it was what I placed on myself, you know, so I feel liberated and I have been feeling better. But I can only imagine that it just gets better. And, you know, so yeah.

Rohini Ross: 1:15:17

And there's gonna be, you know, my emotions go up and down. So there's gonna be the dips and the bumps that come. And that's why having anger support you, as you navigate this, especially over the next month as you're getting ready to come back together, I think will be really, really helpful. Yeah.

Angus Ross: 1:15:34

And with this, understanding, the bumps will become less and less is my, my, my belief anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Because you've been looking at a different direction.

Mateo: 1:15:46

Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready. I always get glimpses of like, going positive. And then it's just like, wait a minute, this is who you are, turn around.

Rohini Ross: 1:15:57

Yeah. The habit

Angus Ross: 1:15:59

was just oh, this is an old habitual pattern of thinking. So in terms of, you know, the biology, you got those old neural pathways that, you know, that can have the tendency to kick in. But just and that's what I mean by the bumps, eventually, you're looking at different direction, develop new neural pathways, yeah. And things will look significantly different.

Rohini Ross: 1:16:21

And those new neural pathways are based on your innate state, the old way of going negative is actually conditioned, not your natural state. So you've learned a way to survive, and it feels normal, but it's actually not natural. So what Angus is talking about is that you get, you get to get back those neural pathways that are the natural way, naturally optimistic, naturally open hearted, open minded, naturally spacious, because you're not having to protect yourself in a way that you have been all this time. Yeah.

Angus Ross: 1:16:57

I came up with this metaphor this morning. Well, you know, like, where you go, do you go on Netflix, do you on your laptop, and you want to go back or find a scene and you you scroll a cursor, and as you scroll back, you see all the frames, and then when you stop, the cookie sort of the frame gets bigger. It's kind of like, I feel like when we get into a low mood, that's what our conceptual mind is trying to do is trying to match up a frame with that feeling. So the opportunity is just to not take that frame Seeley seriously, get a sense, like I'm in a low mood. And the frame that I want to like hone in on is probably getting bigger. getting bigger is not is not where I want to be going. It's just a learn, get to the mistrust that. And then you'll always come back to your essential nature, which is one of well being your frame will then line up with a picture of, I don't know, a VISTA of beauty and for hilltops and sunshine, etc. But it's kind of like you know what I'm saying? It's like learning how to mistrust those little bumps are going to crop up, you're going to get into low mood, it's inevitable. And they'll be about, you know, be a corresponding frame. It's just don't take it seriously. That's really for me, that's the leverage point in relationship.

Rohini Ross: 1:18:10

Yeah, makes it so much easier. And it's so much easier when we don't take ourselves too seriously when we're not in a good space, state of mind. And we don't take the other person that seriously when they're not in a good state of mind. I mean, just that in itself makes it easier. It's not personal. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

Angus Ross: 1:18:33

We should let you go and enjoy your day. Yeah. It's quite funny to realize that that's the Genesis point of my Netflix metaphor. And, and then all the mileage that I've got out of that metaphor, since I didn't realize that. That was, that was the day that I thought of it. That's quite funny.

Rohini Ross: 1:18:59

I think you probably use that metaphor in every intensive we do.

Angus Ross: 1:19:03

I think I do what I do that is illustration, which unfortunately, I can't do in a podcast format. But it's very much a part of that illustration about how I define this understanding. And so how interesting that there was the day that that it came into being. But it's been quite a journey with these two. And I'm really proud of all that they've seen and how far they've come and all that they've been willing to do. And this day, above all others has been one where they've really both been able to wear their heart on their sleeve and show up in a very vulnerable and open way. And the fruits of that are there to be seen or heard as the case may be.

Rohini Ross: 1:19:48

Well, we won't draw this out any longer. We will let you know how things work out. We're going to just summarize the final sessions after this session With the four of us, there were a few bumps in the road, one. On the bigger side, shall we say, where it was taking Mateo longer to move in and the month that he stated in the meeting, and Alicia got pretty upset around that. And so that seemed to prove Mateos concern that it wasn't going to work out for them to move back in together because of her temper. But with support, they were able to see that their behavior was a reflection of them getting caught up and being in a low mood and blowing things out of proportion. And with some, a little bit of extra time, they were able to settle and realize that they did want to be together. So Angus, you are getting your sentimental ending.

Angus Ross: 1:20:59

That's important to me.

Rohini Ross: 1:21:02

And in terms of our meetings with them, we supported them through that period of time. And we had a follow up session after they'd been living back together for a little while just to see how things are going. And that was our final formal session with them, wasn't it?

Angus Ross: 1:21:22

It was Yes, yeah.

Rohini Ross: 1:21:24

And so in that final session, rather than sort of taking playing the segments, I just took a few quotes that I thought were indicative of how things are going after they move back in. Can I share those? Yeah,

Angus Ross: 1:21:37

no, please do.

Rohini Ross: 1:21:38

Okay. So one of them was Alicia saying, It's nice having my best friend again, and enjoying a Saturday on the couch, watching college football, or literally doing nothing or doing many things together, I feel back in orbit now. And then Mateo said, it's been really good. Our communication has been really good. Alicia's brother is going to be proposing next weekend. And Alicia wanted me to go. And I think I communicated pretty effectively my stance on that. And at least he was able to listen and process it, and then come to me a day later, I thought that was pretty cool. It was totally out of the norm. It used to be a Spitfire response right away. So I thought that was very positive.

Angus Ross: 1:22:19

Excellent.

Rohini Ross: 1:22:21

And then a final one from Alicia. She says one of the biggest takeaways for me is realizing that we're two completely different people. And it's not that the way we do things is right or wrong. I recognize that Mateo is going to do things his way. I've come to terms with the fact that we both march to the beat of our own drum. And instead of getting upset, I find peace in harmony with that. So I don't get spun out over stupid things. That's fantastic. Yeah. So when we had that session with them, they were doing really well together. And we just said to reach out if they ever needed support. And also they could reach out if they had any good news to share, too. And so several months later, we started getting some texts from them, or you got some text, I think, or maybe it was a group chat. I can't remember. Yeah. And so one of them was Happy New Year to you and Rohini Words cannot describe the transformation in my life with Alicia. With that we head into the new year with utmost excitement. We wish we were there to give you a big hug. Happy New Year. And then a few months after that. Hi, Angus, hope you and Rohini are well, Alicia and I are hunkered down celebrating our eight year dating anniversary. Things are wonderful. Since moving back in. We thank you endlessly for that. And then I didn't write the dates on these. So this was a few months after that, I would say and this is to you. Hey, Angus, we were thinking about you guys the other day. We are due in December. But he can come any day now. Sorry, we've been disconnected. But I haven't been feeling very well. That was from Alicia. And Mateo has been such a trooper taking care of me, we miss you. And we'd love to schedule a time to catch up with you both. So you know how it is with a new baby. We haven't actually had the time to formally catch up with them but we hope to at some point but we want all of you to know that it was quite the journey and we're so grateful that they allowed us to be with them on it and get to them to this point where they're really thriving and enjoying the relationship and their family. And hopefully the understanding is gonna serve them well.

Angus Ross: 1:24:43

Yeah, they did get my Hollywood ending in the end. You know what, what what better gift for that and to be able to have a have a baby. I think But yeah, I felt really emotional listening. listening to all that I couldn't have read it without falling apart. Yeah. Yeah.

Rohini Ross: 1:25:09

Yeah, no, it is really heartwarming and just for full disclosure, I did cry when I was listening back to that session. But yeah, we really hope that you've enjoyed listening to this series and we are going to answer the questions that have come in. In the next episode, we'll we'll get to some of the questions that you've asked. And we're really grateful for you to be on this journey with us listening and we hope that you've learned a thing or two about yourself about relationships about life and that you are feeling rewelded through being on this journey with us.

Angus Ross: 1:25:47

Yeah, see you next time.