Awaken to Love
Formerly the Rewilding Love podcast. Transformative coaches Angus and Rohini Ross have worked with hundreds of couples and created the Awaken to Love podcast because they believe there is too much suffering in relationships. Too many good relationships fall apart because couples give up, thinking their relationship problems can't be solved. Many couples don't know how to navigate low moods, conflict, and emotional reactivity. In season one of the Awaken to Love podcast, Rohini and Angus help a couple face different kinds of relationship issues: from divorce papers on the table to rediscovering trust and intimacy to reigniting the spark.
Awaken to Love
EP19: Erika Bugbee: Two Keys for Success in Any Relationship
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We had the pleasure of sitting down with our dear friend and coach Erika Bugbee. Erika's wisdom is evident in every word she expresses. We cover topics like parenting teens (or children of any age), marriage, and relationships of all forms (even the ones with your in-laws).
Erika skillfully uncovers two fundamental keys to having success in any relationship. Showing restraint when we'd rather tear into our partner for their annoying habits, behaviors, etc... goes a long way. We often show restraint in relationships with those who are not our nearest and dearest, but with those, we're closest to we often have the least patience and tolerance. It's an act of love and grace to show restraint in the face of irritations and conflict. For the second fundamental key, we invite you to tune into the episode!
She relates this guidance to Eric Clapton's song "Before You Accuse Me." In the midst of blame and judgment, it's so easy to keep looking outside of ourselves for the source of our frustration. But let's keep in mind how messy or difficult we can be, and use that awareness to help us soften with our loved ones. Maybe they are the tolerant ones having to put up with us all the time! It can be helpful to flip your focus like this when you get caught up.
We also talk about how the urgency for wanting to get it right in parenting can muddy our ability to give our children what they need in the moment, which very well might be space. If we can be comfortable with the unknown, around how we are going to handle a situation, we can walk away and come back to it with more clarity. Accepting uncertainty is the first step to seeing something new.
This episode explores:
- The toxic taste of judgment
- As soon as you soften, they soften -- it's a chemical reaction
- Showing restraint and overlooking as acts of love
- The things that drive us crazy are often our partner's or kid's upside
- Acceptance of the unknown
- The generosity of giving someone space
Show Notes
"Before You Accuse Me": An Eric Clapton song featured on his MTV Unplugged album. Incredible album to listen to from start to finish! Also a helpful mantra to remember for relationships.
Erika Bugbee is a global coach with 20 years of experience working with teens, young adults, and couples who are open and motivated. She helps clients relate to their minds differently so they're less affected by limitations, fears, and distress, which optimizes their enjoyment, peace of mind, and potential in life. Get pointed in a new direction by working with Erika. Learn more at her website: https://www.erikabugbee.com/.
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.
Episode 19 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.
Welcome to Rewilding Love this season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross:This is Episode 19. An interview with Erica Bugbee.
Erika Bugbee:You can change the chemistry of a relationship with just having had something happen inside of one person,
Rohini Ross:it changes the other person, even though it was coming from good intentions, it was having the absolute opposite effect.
Erika Bugbee:We get so upset that all of a sudden things come spilling out,
Rohini Ross:Angus and I weren't able to see the health and we were not practicing what we preach in that sense.
Erika Bugbee:There's essentially two kind of relationship skills that looked to me, to me the most fundamental relationship skill.
Angus Ross:I haven't quite got there.
Erika Bugbee:If you want to work something out, you can't go in with nine things that they did.
Rohini Ross:I wasn't seeing how much my anxiety was running the show and creating an urgency about change. I feel like
Erika Bugbee:we were given this crazy psychology that influences
Angus Ross:is that judgment is so toxic. everything we do
Erika Bugbee:To me. I think any relationship is salvageable.
Angus Ross:You are listening to Rewilding Love with me Angus Ross,
Rohini Ross:and me Rohini Ross
Angus Ross:Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross:We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded
Angus Ross:listening in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor in their work,
Rohini Ross:and how it has helped them in their relationships.
Angus Ross:Relax and enjoy the show.
Rohini Ross:I really enjoyed that interview with Erica.
Angus Ross:Yeah, Erika is always so much fun.
Rohini Ross:And she never disappoints.
Angus Ross:Never.
Rohini Ross:So for those of you who don't know her, Erika bugby is the founder of Erika Bugbee Global Coaching. And she specializes in working with couples, teens, young adults and parents. And as parents, we have been on the receiving end of her support
Angus Ross:we have on the receiving end of her infinite wisdom and expertise. I might say.
Rohini Ross:One of the funniest things that I remember when she was working with us was when we were having a meeting with her and she was basically setting us straight as parents, which is one way of saying it
Angus Ross:giving us a good telling off
Rohini Ross:talking to that's right and, and really no we're just joking. She does it in a beautiful way. This is not any negative commentary on Erica. But she was giving us some straight talk and really encouraging
Angus Ross:us what was straight talk or street talk straight talk a straight talk today not enunciate sound like street talk, like we should talk going or get out on us.
Rohini Ross:Straight talk scaring us straight
Angus Ross:scare you straight. Yes, I came away feeling scared straight.
Rohini Ross:So she was basically telling us to back off. And we hadn't realized how overly protective we were being. And part of that conversation of her helping us see that it was important for us to back off as parents. Your response to that Angus was say, was to say that she's in parks Erica, she's in the park at night
Angus Ross:at 11pm. I hasten to add.
Rohini Ross:And Erika is like, so what?
Angus Ross:said, this is not. She's not in the Pacific Northwest. She's in LA has a whole different flavor to that experience. But nevertheless, she was right. And I don't think it was 11 o'clock at night.
Rohini Ross:I think it was earlier. I think it was dark.
Angus Ross:It might have been 11 o'clock at night.
Rohini Ross:Maybe I didn't know about that time. But anyway, the bigger picture was that sometimes even we need support and getting perspective. And Erika was really helpful in helping us get perspective and stepping back and really seeing what allows teenagers to thrive.
Angus Ross:Yeah. And then what allows teenagers to thrive which was what I couldn't see is for me to have an awareness around their own innate wisdom, which I wasn't really considering is like, here's my job to parent them and be prescriptive and and to think that everything they're doing is probably a big mistake that I know better.
Rohini Ross:Well, it certainly looks that way on the surface. I can definitely agree. But with reflection and perspective, you can start to see that they do have their innate wisdom, talking about them like they were another species. But teenagers are human too. And they do have their own innate wisdom. And it's important for them to learn to listen to it and respect it.
Angus Ross:Yeah. And I think the big takeaway for me around that was, was that if I could show up, and show my youngest daughter that she has her own eight with innate wisdom and has that resource to, to draw upon at any moment that me, showing up that way will allow her confidence to build, she'll realize, yeah, you know, what I can handle this life. I know what I'm doing here. And I think that the message that she was getting from me perhaps was like, You don't know what you're doing. And I know better. And it was much, it was much better for me to show up being this parent was like, you know, what, you have everything you need to handle this, and help her develop a confidence along those lines
Rohini Ross:Absolutely. In and in terms of confidence, what we had to recognize is that the way confidence is built is often through mistakes, and that it wasn't our job to stop her from making mistakes.
Angus Ross:Yeah, and I, you know, I was trying my best to cocoon are away from the, you know, consequences of a mistake, but it's like, you know, you learn by your mistakes, it's how we learn as human beings. It's contact sport.
Rohini Ross:That's right. And if we don't have confidence in her confidence, how is she supposed to have confidence in herself? Exactly. So it was a good journey.
Angus Ross:It was an amazing journey. And, and you get to experience, Erica, in her full effect by listening to this podcast.
Rohini Ross:Yeah. And she shares some pearls of wisdom, some great stories, and I was really moved by what she shared about her own personal relationship.
Angus Ross:Yeah. And I think that, you know, this is what's, for me, starting to unfold around doing these interviews is just getting to hear someone else's perspective, someone else's. His articulation of this understanding and how they see the world through that through that lens. And she's no exception to the rule. She has a very unique way of looking at the world and expressing herself. And I always learned so much from her.
Rohini Ross:And she's really gifted in making it very straightforward, simple and common sense.
Angus Ross:Hands on a user friendly.
Rohini Ross:Alright, well, let's go to Erica.
Angus Ross:Sounds good.
Rohini Ross:Erika Thank you so much for joining us for a podcast. We're really excited to have you.
Erika Bugbee:Yeah, thanks for having me.
Angus Ross:Yeah, really excited.
Rohini Ross:Erika, I thought we would just share a little bit about our experience working with you just for some context. And then we'd love to hear from you in terms of what you're seeing whether it's related to work, the work you do with families, our podcast focuses on couple relationships. So we'd love to hear what you're seeing new and fresh in that area. Seems like you've had some thoughts around that. So I'm excited to hear what that is. So, Angus, do you want to start with our story a little bit? Or where should we go?
Angus Ross:Well, I guess when we really came into close contact with Erika, and I've known you for a while and I would meet you at the your parents trainings from time to time, but we had a we had a rather unsettling experience with our youngest daughter,
Erika Bugbee:but then you had to talk to me,
Angus Ross:then we had to talk to you. And I think that I realized that I could talk to you. And I think it's on the back of a conversation that I'd had with you at one of those after event parties, where I realized like, this is the person that we need to go speak to about our youngest daughter. And there was so much for, for me to learn. I'll speak for myself around that experience. But I hadn't anticipated how much I would learn from it. Really, that was really quite profound. coming to see you, Eric. And for me, it was just sort of like getting a different lens through which to view my daughter, which, which ultimately had me coming away, making me realize is like, there was such a level of judgment towards her about my expectations about how she was showing up, which as much as I thought I had a poker face around. She was feeling in no uncertain terms. So I think our relationship changed radically when I took that judgment off the table and realizes like, yeah, that's how I'm showing up as a dad, and maybe feeling like I'm following the company line and hitting all the right notes. And this is what you're supposed to do. But this was just this slight feeling of judgment towards her is like, oh, you're depressed again. Oh, you're in a bad mood. You're in a low mood, just that wanting her to change. I don't know for me. I never really considered that until I had that chance to sort of to work with you and you I know in your own inimitable way, sort of pointed that out to me. I don't know how you did, but you Did that's what I came away from it?
Unknown:Well, it is interesting when you change, when one person in a relationship changes their perspective or gets a fresh look at things or looks at things through a different understanding. And, and their outlook changes. The only thing that's changed is their eyeball, but it comes out through their pores and their behavior and their emotion and their presence. And it's so interesting, you can change the chemistry of a relationship with just having one person that had something happen inside of one person, it changes the other person. So so and that that's, it works for every relationship. So I think we find that more in our, in our romantic relationships. Because I think sometimes parenting happens so fast and furious, you don't really know what your part is, and then all of a sudden, it's over. But but it is, when you slow it way down, like you had to, you really see how much influence you can have on the relationship that had looked completely out of your control. So it's really kind, it's very hopeful I find it.
Angus Ross:Yeah, I mean, I think to be honest, that was a defining moment for me, for sure. And what I was seeing in the couples work that we do, because I was realizing, through me having this experience with her, seeing how I was just filled with judgment about her low moods and depressive behavior. When I stopped doing that. And I and I realize what that, you know, the effect that that was having on our relationship, our relationship changed radically. And really what happened, she hadn't changed, I'd changed. And you know, we'll share this with our couples in the sense that we only, like what your father says all boats rise with the tide, we only kind of really need one person to understand this. And then that change in lens complexion means means the world of difference in terms of how that can now you know, find its footing how it can get back on an even keel. I think that was a turning point for me. So thank you, I should be paying a commission on that front.
Erika Bugbee:No, no, no more commission needed. But I think you put it in in a way that makes it really easy. I think everybody's done that. Outside of parenting, I think everybody knows what you're talking about, it's really hard to see why you're doing it. If it looks justified, or if other people are doing it, it's just it's really easy to kind of have your own frame of mind and feeling fly under the radar. Especially in parenting and and relate and marriage is the same way.
Rohini Ross:I think for me, when I look back at sort of what was invisible and that you helped me to become more cognizant of was, I didn't see how all of the good ideas that I thought were going to be helpful in terms of our relationship in terms of her mental and emotional well being like eating dinner with spending time with us, things that I thought were helpful. I wasn't clear. And also she hadn't given direct feedback. So that was difficult. But I wasn't clear of how that was being experienced as pressure, and how that that was getting her more busy minded rather than less busy minded. And so even though it was coming from good intentions, it was having the absolute opposite effect. And I remember you saying to me, something along the lines of you know, you're fortunate that it hasn't got to the point where it's really damaged report. But if you keep going if
Unknown:I don't remember saying that. I'm glad you took that well,
Rohini Ross:it might not have been those exact words, but I got the message. So to really see that, you know, you read all the time that you have to have family dinner, it's important to not isolate if you're not feeling good, but to to recognize that she was listening to her wisdom, and that there was health in what she was doing and Angus and I weren't able to see the health and we were not practicing what we preach in that sense in terms of recognizing that it's, you know, the metaphor that we use now is rewilding, that this is all part of the health and the rewilding of the net to the natural state. Like she was listening to her wisdom. She knew how to take care of herself. And we just thought that that was in the way that she shouldn't be doing it.
Erika Bugbee:I think all parents have that all we have is how we were raised and our ideas from our first kid or what we've read or seen, and they're good ideas, but you have to be able to step away from them and look fresh at your kid and then see what makes sense. And sometimes people get scared. They just, they have their go to things and they just try and implement them and it's almost like giving it it's like having a toolkit for a car when you need a toolkit to work on a house. It doesn't It is don't translate. And it's, it's hard to know that that it looks like it's the kid is the problem. And marriage is that way too, hence, the divorce rate. If people could divorce their kids, they just might. So it is, it does really look like that. There's nothing you can do, but stick with it. So being able to step back from it, I credit you guys, any parent that steps back and says, are we missing anything, and kind of is willing to go back to the drawing board, and leave their ideas for the moment to see if to understand the problem before they try implementing solutions.
Rohini Ross:And that was something that you really helped me with too, is that I wasn't seeing how much my anxiety was running the show and creating an urgency about change, seeing change in behavior, things shifting. So I would be rushing in to try and work things out quickly to try and help her get on track. And whatever I thought was on track in my own mind. Yeah, that's the thing. I'm sure you guys see this all the time that I see in couples that has so much similarity to parenting, because oftentimes couples are looking at will do I want to stay with this person. And it's not going to get better than I'm out of here. And so they're trying to kind of there's an urgency because they don't want to waste their time with this person. Or there's an urgency because they don't want to go through something that's been sour for a really long time a day longer than they they want to get going if they're going to get going, or they want. So that sort of the urgency, I think you hit it right I What, what came to mind when you asked me if I wanted to do this, as I had, we were just hanging out with friends a few weeks ago, I had to ask my friend if I could use this example. Because they've been married, we haven't worked with this couple. They're just friends of ours. And but they've been married for three or four years. And she's 42 I think and she's had sort of a string of bad relationships. And this has been our longest relationship. And she's never been married. And she said it was so funny. She was made this offhanded comments, I just found myself getting so irritated with him. And it was happening all the time, a lot. Like I was getting really mad. And she's like, and I don't get mad. She said, and then I realized, wait, I'm playing a long game here. This is a long game. And I was so I thought that was so cool. I didn't say anything at the time. I was like, I'm using that in a webinar, because I like that. That shift. I'm kind of a psychology nerd. So I thought like that is really cool. Because there was a shift that happened in her mind that I noticed happen in our past relationships where there's something I want to highlight because people get people get very kind of frustrated and outraged by their partners habits. And, and it can kind of turn into bitterness and defeat about you and about them about your future really fast. And it kind of does. It's so threatening, when it's your marriage, or your relationship because it is something that's so big, that matters so much to you. And you just you just have the one, all your eggs are in one basket, and it has so much influence on your well being and yet it's out of your control. It's very, it's very unsettling. And and, and it doesn't matter if you've been married for 20 years. Or if you're just starting a relationship. It's just as precious and, and people really want to feel connected. And they want to feel like they have someone and we want to feel like we have somebody in our corner. What that's we want a person more than anything else. I think for me, that's what sort of I think that's what people why relationships matter so much as you want, want to have someone in it with you. And there's nothing worse than having someone right next to you and being alone. And in that. So what I what I you know, the shift that I thought was so interesting in my friend, I'll call her Mary, is that, in a way, what she realized is and I don't know if people see this, you guys did this with your kids is that we sort of there's a way in which you know, you're kind of issued your humanity when you're born. Like given this, like here, here's some, here's a psychology that you have to take with you in life. It's kind of stuck with you. And, you know, it's really in a way it's on us to protect the world, from our devices. There's we we sort of have to be thoughtful about how we go about our relationships. We're sort of in a role. I know when you get up in the morning and you go into your kitchen, it feels like you're at home, you can be yourself and let it all hang out. But you can't. And we don't. In a way we're in a role, we have sort of, we're in a role, the way that you're in our role, when you have a roommate, when you're at work, you have to sort of keep it together to some degree can't just say what comes to mind. And, and is sort of that's our contribution to the greater good is, is to have our sort of our spiritual life and our well being and theirs, their well being, we have to kind of look after those a little bit. And, in we do it, and one of the places I think people do this the most, it's the loudest and the hardest to do is family gatherings, we've had a conversation about that, you really feel I need to step it up, if you start eye rolling at the table, you know, I need to I need to go into another room. So so there is something that we do in our the rest of our lives that I think sometimes we fall asleep, either in parenting or in our, in our romantic relationships where we get so urgent, that we lose ourselves, we sort of, we lose track, we get so upset that all of a sudden things come spilling out. And, and there's there's something in a way, what I saw this last few weeks, as I was preparing for this is that, in my mind, there's essentially two kinds of relationship skills that looked to me, to me the most fundamental relationship skills and it's not communication, it's not, it's, it's, it's not looking after the other person or looking after you. It's really it's essentially, we're required to overlook things. And we're required to show restraint. There's sort of those two things and you to some degree in your friendships, there's things that the ones that that last, and that survived both, both your crazies is that you're able to overlook things in them. And similarly, you're also able to restrain yourself to some degree from having your crazy come out and get all over them. You're not in a good mood, and they keep talking about their breakup, and you don't really want to hear it, you really just want to watch survivor, you kind of your sword, I get a hold of yourself. And in a way, that's how we show our love for people and in, in a way this is what I talk to parents about a lot is if you have a kid, that's your sort of estranged or they're struggling. I talked to parents a lot about how you show your love is not by trying to get them to go to dinner and leaning into them as you lean back. And you they're asking for space with their hostility and their body language and their nastiness. And they stabilize much better when we give them space oftentimes, that the way that parents oftentimes need to show their love and their support for their kid is by listening to them and hearing you want me to leave you alone, and leaning back and essentially showing restraint. So I remember my son came home from his first day at a new job. And he came home and he went right upstairs. And normally he'll come home and talk and tell us generally, and it took every ounce of my self control not to follow him up there and be like how to go to go well what happened and but but that so that there's there's something that we do you know, our relationships, it's essentially allows for the human condition and allows for their humanity when it's not doing well and allows for our human humanity, when we're not doing well, either through restraint or overlooking that's that's what it looks like to essentially what were all of our grace and composure comes from in the relationships where we're somehow magically insulated from their their bad habits and how they get when they're not doing well. That also protects the relationship from us. When in our bad habits when are not we're not doing well. Is there some way in which we're we're accounting for and sort of savvy to, oh, I need to, I need to keep my mouth shut, that's not going to come out, well think I'm going to be quiet on this one and just let them talk. So so we that sort of the overlooking and the restraint. It doesn't look like it, but they're very profound, high minded relationship skills that that are sort of essential to every good relationship that we do really well, in our jobs and with roommates and with friends. And we get the only thing that happens from my vantage point to couples. And that happens in families, when things start to go sideways, that disappears. And I and I, I just have seen it. Now when I look at relationships, since I've been looking out this way, the last couple of weeks, it everything seems to trace back, that plays a part, not that there's not other things going on. But to me, that's the most fundamental part of it. That's right. That's like the bones of a good relationship. Make sense? Makes complete sense.
Angus Ross:I think about it'll be about being state of mind, let's say it's all about state of mind. So if I'm in a low mood, probably don't want to act out in terms of what I'm compelled to say here, or how I'm feeling at the moment and what she's doing. I'll use Rohini as a case in point. If I'm in a low mood, I'm in a low state of mind. If I can learn to not trust the thinking in that state of mind, then I'm probably not going to certainly act out from that state of mind. But it's like, yeah, restraint is the really, that's what's key in that moment is learning restraint. I haven't quite got there. But it has to be key. And it's just another way of talking about what we do. We're in that state of mind, how do we deal with ourselves in that state of mind? Do I want to hop on that train of thought and then react from that train of thought? No, I really don't. Because I really shouldn't trust that train of thought it'd be great if I could learn to restrain myself from trusting that train of thought, because that's always where I get into trouble. And then I can create a habit out of that trouble too.
Erika Bugbee:I feel like when we were given this crazy psychology that that influences everything we do at birth, the one advantage we did get is it is somewhat predictable. If you step back and you look at the kinds of trouble you get yourself into, if you look at five relationships that aren't going well,
Angus Ross:yeah.
Rohini Ross:They're generally not going well, in the same way. Even though they're five different people, you can kind of tell and that's what I thought, you know, I worked with this couple last year. And, and she would, she would want to talk to her husband, at the end of her day, and he would kind of tune out he wasn't really available. And it would for her, she took it really personally and she was sort of thinking about getting out they've been married 22 years, I think, and and she said, Well, you know, I'd be talking and I'd see him, you know, I'd say you know, so this, my, my coworker keeps emailing me and trying to rope me into this thing and see seeing me and she's trying to get me, you know, she's basically trying to like get being passive aggressive and trying to get me to, you know, get involved in this and trying to sort of blame me and she's really frustrating. She looks over and he's scrolling his phone. And he's like, not, I'm listening. And she's just getting really infuriated. And then then at the end of it, he says, Well, if you just stop responding to her emails, she'll stop emailing you. Problem solved. And, and she was just she just could have killed him. And he was so sure that he was so pleased with himself. He was such a smug and arrogant, like, you don't really even have to listen to my problems, and you can solve them and, and they were on the brink of divorce by the time they reached out and so interesting, because when she got out of that, the next morning, we were talking and she said, You know, when he gets overwhelmed, which happens really easily. He sort of he just checks out, and I love that about him because I don't I will keep going and I'll exhaust myself and I'll take on things and he's won't He's like, he'll just pick up my phone and just drop it. You know, he loves doing that. He'll just take it and He'll do it in the sweetest way. And I get it instantly and I realize I need this guy in my life. I need some of that, because I didn't grow up like that. I don't know anybody like that. It's his best feature and she what happens when we can step back away from you know, their personality when they're kind of an ogre is that all the things that drive us crazy, are the upside of that person. And in our softer moments, we would we would agree with that. We would say no, I need that. I love that he's not like that. The part of him that, that doesn't get involved in people's drama and doesn't get outraged by wrongness like I do. love I love that. And that's the thing, what we all want is, is it sort of a protection from from the sharp, pointy parts of our relationship and the parts that are, you know, what we are looking for is connection. The irony is it, you know, when people aren't doing well, we feel alone and disconnected when in fact, they're doing exactly what we do. That happens to all of us, we all turn into giant holes, when we're not doing well. She gets it, she would say it herself. She can take a she hears this, she would say, I get all self involved. And I think everybody needs to stop and listen to me, even though they've had long days themselves and says I turn into a martyr and I start looking at him and thinking this is what's wrong with our country. And I did it again, I married, you know, a terrible person again, she just, she's like, I just, as soon as I get tired, I hop on to this whole story. And I, you know, I bash my husband at my marriage. And she's, you know, as soon as she switches out of that she feels like the lucky one, she feels like she leveled up. And at, which is exactly how I feel my marriage, I feel like, hope he doesn't figure out that I'm just have net fewer points than him. Because I, you know, in my softer moments, I feel like, he's so much better. It's so many that things I'm bad at, because my habits are so familiar to me. That, that I think, ironically, his habits, I'm good at all the things he's bad at. So if you look at, if you can step away from the drama and the particulars and get out of the weeds, every time they go down, they're showing their that their humanity is exempt works exactly like yours. And that their personality, we're side of them comes out somebody's horrible, and we're unrecognizable, and they're not doing well. And that happens to the three of us and and then when when Fortunately, the way the system works is that when that mood state passes, when thought recovers, it changes because it's this living, breathing thing, your psychology, it clears itself up and then all of a sudden your personality gets restored. And you're the person that you you know, you want people to see all the sides of you that, that you know are your strengths. They just come back, you don't even have to do anything. They just they you lose them. And then all of a sudden, it's like your glasses are like, oh, they're right here. Sorry. And that's whoever you're married to. whoever you're in a relationship with. That's when you're in it, you're, you're both being accosted by the same system. And you're both forgetting and having it turn on you and making you feel alone. When there's just not, frankly, it's not possible for us to be alone. Given that we're all part of the same system. So it's what I find reassuring is that the truth that that that we're in this by ourselves, is really not true. It doesn't matter if you're in a relationship or romantic relationship or not. It's true. Because there's other people in the world, they're all necessarily turning into horrible versions of themselves, and then becoming nice, decent people again, this universal system. I think that's so reassuring to see the universal nature of that. Because so often, there's the expectation that our partner is never going to show us the horrible version of themselves. And especially at the beginning of relationships that's often either ignored or overlooked. Like it's really the two things about restraint and overlooking are so easy to do, usually at the beginning of relationships and that's why It works. So well. Yeah. And then, as we get more comfortable and our own conditioning kicks in, it gets harder to do them. Like when I was thinking about what you're saying, but the overlooking. I was realizing like, Oh, yeah, it's so much harder for me to overlook things with Angus than it is with anybody else in the world pretty much. And I'll zone in on that one thing. I probably wouldn't even mentioned to someone else and happen to mention that to him, which is the last thing he needs to hear. But it's I hadn't, I loved how you talked about restraint and overlooking and simplified because I hadn't looked at it in that way. And to be able to have sort of those guide rails in a sense and realize, like, Yes, I can do this pretty much in every other relationship in my life fairly easily. What is it about here, where I lose my mind or look makes it look a lot more difficult. And as you're saying, When those low moods hit, it's like those guide rails come off. And the restraint goes out the window, and the overlooking goes out the window, and it's like crazy all day, to just share everything or
Erika Bugbee:There is open seasonn on Angus hat is I mean, that's the part that I think is so nice is that not only are your habits start to become familiar, if you're looking for them, but but also, there's all these signs that this amazing system of thought will show you that when you're not doing well, your perception is colored in such a way where it looks like you're the victim and they're the perpetrator, or you're the good person, and they're the bad person, they're on the wrong and you're on the right. There's certain perceptions that show up life gets organized in a certain very skewed absolute black and white way. And if that doesn't clue you in, that it looks like there's good people and bad people and you're in the good pile. Your feelings are there, that if it that you're if you can't see it in the content that the contents organized suspiciously slanted in in your favor, or slanted against you, then your feelings will tell you that because you're you to the to the extent that you're forgotten to show restraint and overlook, you'll have a very bad taste in your mouth. You'll feel hostile and defensive and nasty and faultfinding also, so your the way that you feel before you even open your mouth will be toxic. So so that you'll you'll get a chance to see it you know, I
Angus Ross:I can taste the gasoline in my mouth.
Erika Bugbee:I was just gonna say it is it's kind of a
Angus Ross:fog breathing dragon is about to appear, right?
Erika Bugbee:It's so obvious. It's a it's it's almost it is it's almost like a like sound like you're eating something bad. But if you don't pay attention to it, it's surprisingly easy to miss. So, you know, I was I was listening to this song the other day. I love Eric Clapton. And, and he's got this great MTV Unplugged album, if anybody out there wants a whole album to listen to. And he's got this great this, my favorite song on there is the one that says, before you accuse me take a look at yourself. And that's, as soon as we get finger pointy, and Blaney and start building a case soon as you open up your file where you're building a case and adding infractions to their record. That's how, you know, that's thoughts way. That's the intelligence behind life. telling you, oh, this is for you got that file in your hand. Let's take a look at you and your file is it's, it's foolproof, and it works every time. And I think that's the part that somehow we feel a little bit of accountability. In our relationships, we look after them a little bit more. And we just get I don't know if it's sloppy, or lazy, or we just somehow it just it gets to where we can kind of lose the plot. And it and all of a sudden it starts getting away from us. And it can look like that's not in our control. And what I think is so nice, doesn't matter how far gone Our relationship is. If you have people that want to make it work and have no idea how it's the wanting to make it work part that matters. It's frankly the only thing that matters. So you can come back from any loss. It's not like just a certain number of innings like baseball, you can come back from anything and it doesn't. It just you do have to be willing to see. I'm I need to look within my jurisdiction and that's always theirs. There's a way in which as soon as people get out of the blame, and let their mind settle down, the stuff that they built up, their bad feeling is is so clear that it's hard to see past that just like for you, once you realize it's full of judgment, it's the only place you're not looking. But it's right there. As soon as you look, there's no way you're gonna say, Well, I think I'm doing great is if you're, if you're in a bad relationship, I promise you, you've got a horrible taste in your mouth. And so our jobs at that point are really easy. We just play that Clapton song.
Angus Ross:Okay. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the one of the programs that I ended up doing, probably because I felt like I need to be I'm constantly playing catch up with my wife, I felt like at this point, maybe I'll just spend the rest of my life playing catch up with my wife. But I remember being introduced to this concept. And this is a concept that everybody seemed to struggle with universally, this idea of projection that if I don't like, there's something about this person that I don't like, why I don't like there's something about that person is because it's something about myself. And everybody really struggled that, but that kind of is the Eric Clapton line, isn't it? Right? It's just like, yeah, go look at myself first, and figure out what's going on there before I get into this sort of need to judge someone else. And it's the judgment is so toxic. That's the gasoline in our mouth. It's that judgment. And I love that visual, that sensory experience of feeling like yeah, it is like it is toxic. It tastes toxic. Yeah, I'm compelled to sort of like, make him make them the full guy. It's their fault. Right?
Erika Bugbee:Yeah. blame them for the taste in your mouth.
Angus Ross:Exactly. This is ridiculous as that, isn't it?
Erika Bugbee:Yeah. Yeah. But it is, you know, it's neat, though, I find it so I think this part of our humanity is like, it's, it's like, it's like this amazing gift is it, you can have so much hostility, and so much build up and so much kind of bad history with someone. And yet, as soon as you have a moment where you feel like, wait, I don't, you know, I don't want to lose this. And whatever I have to do, I want to get it back, I know I have a part. As soon as people get fine, they're sort of their softness and their openness, and are willing to figure are, don't care if it's their fault, or the other person's fault, they just want it back. That's, it just takes a little of that kind of like when someone, you're mad at someone, and you're already to lose, let them have it, and then they come to you and you think they're gonna want to get back into it, but they come and they're all apologetic, and so often, you know, it's, like impossible to, to resist. And it just, as soon as people come in a feeling of apology, you know, if you're ready for it, and if they're genuine, those few times in life where that happens, it, it just it melts, can melt anything. And I and that's the part, I feel like that's, that's what, where all the potential comes from is it as soon as we soften up in our own feeling, all of a sudden, it changes who you're dealing with, so that your personality can bring out the worst in them, just like when you're driving, need to know those people. And if you're kind of hostile, all of a sudden, everybody gets hostile. And in the same sense, as soon as you soften up, doesn't matter if you're dealing with hostility, it softens them up. And that's this amazing chemical reaction that we don't have to do anything with, but just stand in our different feeling. And then just be present in the relationship of the other person and it it does the thing we can it can move mountains. And it can sort of dissolve fights and misunderstandings and animosity that are decades old. That's right. I think that's that's constantly amazes me at how fast you can clean something up when people's people sort of have a change of heart and look in the direction that we're pointing.
Angus Ross:Getting back to our daughter, I think that for me, where I suffered and where I changed and realize that I'm showing up in judgment. What I was realizing is that she's smelling the gasoline. This is like this is almost like invisible fuel. There's no way she gets a sense of my judgment, but she was feeling that in no uncertain terms. Yeah. And when I let go that I've A lot of things radically changed.
Erika Bugbee:Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of people, like parents want to see their kid, show some respect or show some appreciation or get their grades up, they they're looking, they want to see some change in their kid before they change. I'll start respecting and appreciating them, if they start respecting and appreciating me, all led up if they show some that they're responsible, and, unfortunately, does not work that way. And the same way that I'm sure you guys see this all the time for 20 years, I see couples that are like, well, I guess we're getting a divorce because I'm not changing. And, and I always have to call them out like, are you sure you want to go that route, because if you're waiting for them, you might want to just file now, I don't know if I can, I don't know if you want to give me your money. But if you're willing to, you know, start wherever it needs to start, if you're willing to sort of take them off the table and look inside you. I promise, you'll see somewhere you can go, which is a relief to people because I don't want to feel like my, the fate of my relationship is in their hands. Especially if they look like a giant aihole. To me, I want to, but I want to feel it's I think people forget when things get really bad and the other person it gets in a sort of an adversarial state, how much influence we have. If, if we can find a different feeling inside ourselves, it doesn't look like that would be the case, because that's not what you see in the mechanics of things. But people really, when when people are willing to sort of take stock in a way say, you know, for the moment, nevermind this other person, which is hard to do, because that it looks like you're letting them off the hook momentarily. And in a sense you are you're kind of forgetting about their horrible behavior, which might be much worse than yours. We can judge that. But, but it can't you still it still has to start with you. And it is amazing what people can see. When they say no, nevermind what they're doing. I am being judgmental I am, I am I have lost my faith. And my kid I have, I have written off this person that I'm that I'm in a long term relationship with this woman, Mary, that's what she would do. She said I would get I'd write him off. I kind of i just i in a way I would be starting an exit strategy. And we just got married. That's not good. So it doesn't matter even if he deserves it. I'm not I feel like this is a little soon to give up. And, and I want to at least practice hanging in there so that when I if I do leave them and get with someone else, I'm better at sticking with it. I'm getting something out of this. And it's as soon as she felt like, I'm going to look inside myself and her mind quieted down. She just her way of showing up without all the charge. All of a sudden, he responded in a way where she was kind of hoping that he would be you know, dismissive and he wasn't. She was sort of, in a way hoping to say, See, he's that way. And she said, You know, I didn't want to tell you this. But, you know, I went home and I kind of, you know, made a joke about how maybe I had blown things out of proportion, because she had been dismissive, she just went slept on the couch at night. And, and, and, and she said it was so sweet. Because I made this comment. And I meant it. I was I did maybe blow things out of proportion. And, and he said, Well, I was that's fine. I didn't notice because I was busy hanging out with my fake Facebook family. He was kind of joking about how he sort of checked out and, and, and then he was cute. He said, You know, it's a good thing. We found each other we would have, you know, gone to the grave single. He kind of realized, you know, we're both sort of badly behaved. And she said it was so reassuring because I just realized neither of us are very good at this. And we know how to do it. We just have to commit to seeing our part. She said it just made relationships look so simple.
Rohini Ross:That's great. And you're really pointing out the resiliency that's naturally there. If people are willing to if they want to make a relationship work, like if that's their intention, that capacity that we have to drop into that space of non judgement and a good feeling and a willingness to see something fresh and to see our partner through the eyes of their innocence doing the best that they can Unlike it's it completely resets things, and we can do that as many times as we want to do that, even if we have to do it multiple times a day, it's possible to do that. And whenever I dig my heels in and get caught up in my ego and get righteous and justified, I'm suffering, the whole time I'm doing that it never feels good. It never really does anything for me. And yet, there's those times where I forget, and I, and I get stuck in that. But every time that I remember, oh, I can get more quiet, I can let this go. I don't need to keep ruminating on it. When I'm able to do that, the feeling that comes in is so much nicer the feeling of an open heart, that soft feeling that you're talking about. It just feels so much better. And then I realized, like, what was I doing wasting my time? dwelling on that or ruminating on that?
Unknown:Yeah, you put a lot of miles on the engine?
Rohini Ross:Exactly.
Erika Bugbee:Yeah, I do think you hit on something that it's something that you get better at that you have to be willing to not know what you're going to do about something in order to set it down and walk away and get a fresh look. And sometimes that feels passive to people or like they're, you know, giving the other person permission to treat them badly, or whatever they just did is okay. We're not saying that at all, some of my best parenting moves, for me with my teenagers has been walking away. Because I know and the bigger the infraction, the longer sometimes I'll take before I come back. So it might be a couple of days if it's really bad. And for those few days, it looks like they got away with it. But I know when it's something where I really have a charge, and I really react and I'm thinking terrible things, or I all I feel is outrage, or I feel like they're bad people. I know, I'm really, I don't know, I'm in no state to parent, I've lost my leadership skills. And I think in a way, I think we need to be able to take some ownership over the issues themselves. And what they're doing is, as soon as people can commit to that, the way that we do in our relationships where we do well, your ideas are better, your interventions are better. And you can make the distinction between what's actually a big deal and what's not. Because you know, when you're upset, everything's a big deal. When you're a parent, everything's a big deal. And when you're in a relationship, and you're crabby, everything's a big deal, I don't have to even have done anything. It's amazing, we're really good at making everything look like a big deal. We're amazing. So so it does, I think we do have to be willing to say I have no idea if I'm onto something, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't know, what's a problem, I don't know, if there are the problem. I'm the problem if I should leave them. I that's the to me. That's the honesty that I think we owe ourselves as human beings is if we're crazy half the time, which I think I don't know about you guys, but I feel like on our bad weeks, you know, we're really bad. It's like 80%. So I feel like on average, I think half or half our output and half our perception of life is, you know, garbage or at least highly contaminated and suspect that I think at least impaired to some degree, that if you figure Well, maybe I have bad information, maybe my data is bad. Let me take a fresh read. When I've calmed down. That's the part that I think we owe ourselves. If you don't do that you're hurting. You're using your own thinking to bash your relationship. And and what you're doing is you're essentially, withholding something from yourself that is, could be really good. And I think that's the part I think, you know, when those moments where you feel close to people, and you feel like you're in it together with somebody you can be up against anything, is when you feel like someone's in your corner. Somehow if you were okay with whatever horribleness is happening, whether it's like an illness or something wrong with a kid or worried about money somehow when you're in it with somebody else we can handle. We can be calm about anything. And I think to scare that off in your relationships, because of because you've kind of been under the spell of your own negativity. It's unfortunate, but it's also something you can get the hang of because because it's happening and all of us it happens. It's gonna happen a bunch of times this week. If you're looking for it, you do you get good at it. The way you get good at handling are really good. Gold in law that you now get along with whatever you do there, you got to just sprinkle some maybe in your relationship and then maybe they won't need us. That's right, maybe we'll be out of a job.
Rohini Ross:That would be a great world to live in.
Erika Bugbee:But I think it's, it's something, you know, what we're pointing to we, we honestly, do really gracefully in so many areas of our lives. And for some reason it does, it gets a little bit harder to see, the lines get a little bit blurred. When you've been around the same person long enough, their file of how bad they are starts to look pretty bad. And your file is just sitting over there unused. There's nothing in it. It's, it's funny, it's like we all get under that that spell?
Rohini Ross:Yeah, the the file folder gets thicker and thicker over the years.
Erika Bugbee:Yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, the part that is always, you know, is reassuring to me is it. As soon as we can let go of all the data that we have, in the moment in our charged moments in our moments where we've, we've sort of gotten polarized and lost and, you know, whatever it is, whatever your your flavor is, that you get in that you're in it alone, or that you're in another bad relationship, and you start losing faith in yourself, and and then those reminders, what's on the other side of that, if you can get your if you can kind of step away from the storyline, and let let things air out a little bit like wine, you know, let it just breathe a little bit. What's on the other side of that is all the fondness and the part of their humanity, that that drew you to them, and are the part of their humanity that you admire and either look up to or are grateful for all of that best part, the best moments in our relationships really live as a potential forever with that person. They didn't change, maybe a different side of them came out, maybe your dynamic only brings out that side, but it's still in there. And that, to me, I think any relationship is salvageable. Even if the other person doesn't want to be in a relationship with us our ability to have a change of heart and see, they just get caught up. That's how they get and and not take it personally. And to see you know, I get that way. Maybe less extreme, maybe less hostile. But I recognize that you can feel close to somebody, even if they don't feel close to you. And that's oftentimes frankly, what's what's allowed me to reset in my own relationship over the years, is I'm the one that makes the first move within myself of like, I'm not I'm no picnic. into remember, I'm not sure who's the lucky one here to kind of feel a little bit like maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Is that's just kind of the beginning of it for me.
Rohini Ross:It's always fun to hear how you articulate it and the great metaphors that you use. And the stories that you share always helps me to see something new as well. So yeah, Angus and you are thanking you for this.
Erika Bugbee:Yeah, well, it's 49 years of messing up relationships in my own life, and having to get back on track. So I you know, I'm in the same I'm in the same club. You guys were in and everybody else
Rohini Ross:That' s right, I guess is gonna be saying, Are you gonna overlook? I'll say, Are you gonna show some restraint? Yeah.
Angus Ross:I know, under the spell of negativity.
Erika Bugbee:Yes. Stay in your own lane now. So there's no, so there's no fights. You can't you can't use my material in a fight.
Angus Ross:You have a patent on it, right?
Erika Bugbee:Yeah. I don't want to, I don't want to get any nasty emails.
Rohini Ross:Now, we would only say it in in the in the best way in the best way. Sometimes just that is enough to get us back on track.
Angus Ross:Yeah. It can be the more post-mortem vernacular, I guess.
Rohini Ross:But it's gonna be fun, because I think he really simplified it with those two points. Yeah, they, you know, just as I'm sitting here, reflecting on it, I'm like, yeah, if I'd shown restraint, there would be a whole different situation. Or if I'd overlooked that it would have been a whole different situation. And those skills are there. As you're saying, we exercise that all the time, in relationships that were less close to the person. It's so much easier to do there because the file folders very Then if there is one at all, but when we get into that thick file folder of memory in terms of our very intimate personal relationships, it just gets so much harder to remember that, but those are the people we want to.
Erika Bugbee:Yeah, I also, I'll just make this last point is that I think we do see is really easy to see when other people are missing restraint and overlooking in their relationships or in a moment, and I'm in a meeting when someone goes off. And you know, like, that's probably not the time to do this. Really easy to see, like, that's really where people step in it is they just get in the heat of the moment, and then they blurt, or they take issue and then they never recover from that moment, and they didn't hear anything. And especially if you have something that needs to get addressed in a relationship, you can't really afford to be caught up on whatever, technicality you're caught up. And you sort of need to be able to let a lot of stuff go if you want to have if you want to work something out, you can't go in with nine things that they did. You have to be well, you can't go and mad at them. You have to go in and just focus on one thing. And I think it's really easy to see when other people miss the mark. It's just maybe not so easy. And that's but we clearly have the skills because we know exactly what it looks like, when people are doing it. And it's you know, be easy to articulate.
Rohini Ross:It's about turning the mirror on ourselves. Right?
Erika Bugbee:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Angus Ross:I feel like I want to get one of those. I get a silence of the lamb outfit that I can put on when I when I work so that you can know I'm restraining myself here. I'm in a low mood.
Erika Bugbee:Is he gonna take the mask and everything?
Angus Ross:Yeah, no.
Erika Bugbee:Thats's how bad things get? that's how you run this house?
Rohini Ross:I know it's a bad week.
Unknown:I think about the Simpsons, you know? Yeah, if you guys watch the Simpsons, but and they have you ever see that episode, there's an episode where they go to a family therapy and they give them all zappers. They're wearing those collars. And when they do something you don't like zap them.
Angus Ross:I love that.
Erika Bugbee:Oh, I threatened getting a set of those at my house before
Rohini Ross:switching. There'll be some weeks where we'd probably be electrocuted.
Erika Bugbee:Oh, absolutely. You'd have to go live out of range for the weekend.
Rohini Ross:Erica, thank you. It's been really wonderful. So should we start? Angus You ready?
Angus Ross:Yes. Yeah.
Rohini Ross:So this is just a sneak peek into your life. So I'm just thinking of your relationship. So what's one of the fondest memories in your relationship?
Erika Bugbee:One of the fondest memories, I think one of the fondest memories for me, I think was the first weekend that my husband and I had just we have this long distance relationship for, I don't know, eight months. We are two states away from each other and, and so we would fly and meet once a month to see each other. And, and we took this weekend away and it was went to the Oregon coast was really cool because I could see his sort of, I caught little glimpses because we spent three, two days together. And normally we didn't see him that much. I saw his kind of in between moments where he would get kind of awkward or, you know, kind of a little bit clumsy, I would just catch these little glimpses of his humanity. And we're with another couple, my best friend and her husband and it was so relaxed, and I and he, he just let his guard down. It was really neat. Because I would think, you know, in a new relationship, you don't want to be awkward, you don't want to come across it's like your best version of you all put together. And it was so it was really endearing because I thought like I I feel like I can completely be myself. And because and I think I was looking for it. I think I was looking for you know, I was really interested in that this is something there's something here and I was looking for the in between moments I was looking for just somebody that I could be comfortable with and build a life with and and i think you know in the past that might have made me feel insecure myself having somebody else get insecure not know what to say and have an awkward moment. And for me it was sort of a you know, it was one of my fondest moments. I think for me because it was so it just felt like I was at home on my couch. And and it felt very light and it just felt like there was nothing at stake and there was no pressure. It was really and I just felt him. It his little, you know his little person. He just it was just it was a very sweet home.
Angus Ross:So I'll do the next question, what is one of the funniest memories in your relationship?
Erika Bugbee:I think one of the funniest moments for me is, I hate to have my hopefully my husband doesn't hear this because I don't want him to do more of this. But he messes with me a lot. And, you know, he kind of tricks me he was said, three older siblings that messed with him. So he didn't have a younger sibling. So I'm the younger sibling. And, and we went to a concert across the state, and we bring our camping stuff and the gorge on the other side of Washington State. And we bring our camping stuff, we camp out for a couple of nights. And we go to this, you know, they play right there at that venue. And it's a beautiful outdoor venue. And so you make camp, you make dinner, and we meet a bunch of people there. And we all go together to the show. And it's like a, I don't know, maybe a mile walk. So we set off and we're just in the best mood. I love live music. So I'm just on cloud nine. And so my husband says, Do you have the tickets? I'm like, No, you have the tickets. And, and I'm, he does this all the time. Oh, do you have the keys? And then he gives me this like, No, I don't have the keys. So by this time, you know, we've been married a long time. So I'm certain he has the tickets, and he's messing with me. So I won't, I don't believe them. So we walk like a half a mile. He's like, I really don't have the tickets. And I keep telling him Look, this is kind of a long time to drag this out. So finally, we get to the gate to give our tickets and we've been walking for 45 minutes. And we're with this giant group all of our friends and he can't produce the tickets because he doesn't have the tickets. And we had to buy tickets. Because we had left the tickets. We figured out on him on my refrigerator. I had left them actually Oh, and it was so funny, because at the time and that moment, it wasn't funny because we didn't know if they were gonna have tickets. Fortunately, they did. But we had tickets right up to the front. And we had a set up in the nosebleeds. Because those are the only tickets they had we spent all these all this money on tickets right up in the front. And what's so funny is that it there's something funny about the fact that I didn't believe him. And he essentially set me up for like 10 years to get away. I had it in my head that he'd been sort of planning this because it was so it there was so much build up and it was such a big deal that the whole thing was it was one of the funniest. It was one of the hardest. I laughed harder during that I was halfway through the concert I that was so funny that here we are sitting in the nosebleeds. And I didn't believe them and it took them 45 minutes to convince me. That was I think I laughed harder in that moment than I ever have. And I think it's maybe that's part of the what it finally took that long to get me to have a sense of humor about him Tornante. I finally saw why He does it because it's so hilarious.
Rohini Ross:I hope your husband doesn't listen and I hope Angus doesn't take a leaf out of it.
Unknown:Hey, my husband doesn't need any extra fuel. But I think partly because I was so I was so gullible that I was so pleased with myself. I look like such an idiot to me that it was just hilarious.
Angus Ross:Yeah, I personally hate those kind of pranks. I think that don't get any ideas right?
Erika Bugbee:No, I can't stand them. That's why they get so funny as I thought I was being so clever.
Angus Ross:Yeah, I remember having my I went on a trip. And it was to New York and the two people I were traveling with I went to the bar from I came back and my passport they took my passport out of my bag and didn't tell me like and watch me panic and sweat until the very last minute and then they produced it like I literally turned took everything out of my luggage trying to find it.
Erika Bugbee:Well I had to do a little tutorial for my husband said look if we're gonna stay married. Here's the deal you can play jokes on makes you're not gonna stop. But if they make me upset, more upset they make me the longer you're going to be in the doghouse and not understand why I can't take a joke. so be warned. So I had to lay Joke's on me where it doesn't actually upset me.
Angus Ross:Good deal.
Erika Bugbee:Yeah, I had to teach him but I had to get over my outrage to do that.
Rohini Ross:See, the great lesson.
Erika Bugbee:That's why I could do a good talk today. I gotta figure that one out.
Rohini Ross:All right, the next one is what's one of the most difficult times in your relationship and how did you get through it?
Erika Bugbee:I think the hardest moment for me and I If you would say the same thing as is, when our kids were both in diapers, and you have two kids and, and we were really struggling with one of them in particular, and just the phase he was in and, and we were both just exhausted, and just spread thin and, and, you know, when you have that second kid, you know, your naps disappear. Whatever downtime you had, when they're playing with Legos, the other ones, you know, that something's happening. So you're just you basically just sprint everywhere, for, you know, years. And, and, and so we were just exhausted. And I think what's interesting is we had this sort of collision between him not taking things so seriously. And me feeling like, you know, we have to, we have to take things seriously. And it looked like, to him, like I was uptight. And it looks to me, like he didn't care. So, so now for me, where I went is while I'm in this by myself, I get to do everything myself. And it sort of compromised my view of him because he looked all of a sudden, like, he's out. There's, I have no, what I thought was an asset is there's he doesn't bring anything to the table, he went from being like a full partner to like a part time, you know, like, a part time employee that just clocks in not even that I can't even rely on him to, like, open up the store, like, man, the cashier, I just, so I, I sort of had this moment, or I thought I'm, not only am I doing this alone, but he's, he's coming in with his stupid interventions that are just making things he's, you know, he's creating bad habits, and he sticks them in front of the TV, and I willing to work hard when they want to watch TV more. And, and so and even when I would get breaks away, I would be like, well, what's he? So he's just going to cruise and watch TV, you know, you need to work. When you're, you know, you can't just take shortcuts. And but I you know, at some point I realized, I don't I don't know if my philosophy is right. Maybe his philosophy is right. And I a long time to consider that there was anything right with his philosophy that he brought anything to the table. But But I did have a moment where I thought well do I want to me, I definitely don't want that. I thought I I had thought that I did I thought he could just be more like me, the way he sees things and does things and then I caught a glimpse of what our poor shoulder and go through. In. But, but, but prior to that moment, there was a you know, long period of time where I I had just made up in my head that I had an antagonist living in the house. And, and I was on top of doing everything myself, I'm having to dodge bullets. And the you know, I'm having to, you know, do all these like maneuvers to shelter the kids from his horrible effect. It was that's what it felt like it so it felt kind of like when, when my my Labrador Retriever is downstairs by himself. And, and, and, and there's garbage cans everywhere. It just felt like I'm going to go down and there's going to be mayhem. Just I felt like I had to do two things at once. And in that, that part of it. I think the the hardest part was feeling like kind of betrayed by life. I thought I had this partner and someone that was going to help me and instead you installed this person. It's like, sabotaging me. Like whoever's out there that creates viruses like really, you know, we're just trying to work here and you got somebody who's trying to sabotage that's that's what it felt like and it felt really I wasn't even mad at him. I was sort of mad at you know, life and God and just that that was I think my you know, our probably his two of our darkest You know, my by far my hardest moment
Rohini Ross:can definitely relate to that. I think we had our melt down around the same time.
Erika Bugbee:And I think a lot of people that have kids that have you know, they're more challenging, the divorce rate is higher. And I think you really have to want to find your way back and be in it together. warts and all, rather than it alone. And I think a lot of the couples that make it back in, say that they say, you know what I'd rather have, you know, a working partner in this, even if they suck at a whole bunch of things, then be it in it alone, and have, you know, the right skills. It's just, it's hard to see that from where I was really hard to see that when you're, you know, super dark. You've gone over to the dark side.
Angus Ross:So, question number four, how do you divide domestic labor in your relationship?
Erika Bugbee:So my husband does the laundry, he does most of the cooking, especially since the pandemic, now that I have, like, I get both teenagers in the house and I work, I realized I have to manage them and figure those things out. So I do this sort of parenting heavy lifting. And then, and the sort of mechanics and the, you know, laying out the rules in the enforcement. But though he's a second on the team, because he'll, he'll, he'll weigh in all kinds of consult with him, he'll weigh in and he'll be maybe more fairly strict around specific things, and then very hands off around a lot. And he'll come in and say, I don't like this, it doesn't work. So so he's, he's sort of we team up on a lot of the parenting. But But then the mechanic so as I'm busier with the kids, he'll do the cooking. The cleaning is pretty even. Because he does all the things I hate and then I gladly do all the things he hates.
Angus Ross:It's very good team.
Rohini Ross:That's good teamwork.
Erika Bugbee:He does laundry. I by accident when I was scooping up, laundry off of the the laundry room floor, a piece of steel wall was on the floor, and that got scooped up and put in the laundry with his favorite shirts. Yeah, and if you ever if you hate somebody put steel wall in their laundry because these little tiny hairs you can only see with an iPhone and tweezers, tiny little fibers and all of his favorite shirts that he's washes himself separately. So, so that incidencia sealed the deal. So I don't do any laundry. And yeah, I spent hours pulling out little steel wool fibers from his shirts for about six months. He does yard stuff, most of the yard stuff. I do the fixing in the house. You know, shelves need to be put up or? Yeah, so that's Yeah. Did I cover most of them?
Rohini Ross:Yeah, yeah. It seems like you know how to leverage each other's talents make it work? Yeah. What about finances? How are the finances handled in your relationship?
Erika Bugbee:My husband does all the he manages in terms of paying the bills, tracking it tracking account amounts. And then he does the savings part where it has to do with what we both kind of figured out what to do with the savings part, weapon investments and whatnot. And then I handle all of this siphoning money off into different holding tanks, saving for college and car repairs and big trips. So I'm very concrete. So he would keep it all together. But I can't keep track that way. So so I kind of have my own little saving system over here that I save for all of us in the way that makes sense to me. And then he handles the rest of it like the 401k stuff. And the bigger stuff. So he tracks the mechanics of it. I just track one little part of it because money makes my eyes cross.
Angus Ross:What was the biggest misunderstanding you woke up from in your relationship?
Unknown:I think on my part, I know what he would say here. But I think between the two of us I think the biggest misunderstanding came from my part of things where we would have conversations about something. And he looked just like he didn't care. Partly because like and we're both this way neither of us really like having talks like serious talks. If I could go a whole lifetime without it. I would. And he's the same way. So but ironically When there were some so so if I come as I would have to tell him this, look, why come to talk to you, it means we really definitely have to, or I wouldn't be doing it, because I'll do anything to avoid having a serious discussion in life. But when I do, first thing he'll do, as soon as we start talking, he's, he'll get up and go, you know, get something from the kitchen or bring dishes in, or he just would get up and walk around, I got to do this. And, and he just couldn't, I mean, he would continue the conversation, but he would get up within 30 seconds. And then when we talk, he kind of would deflect, or I couldn't get anything from him. And, and what I realized was, which made me just want to kill him, or hurt him badly. And because I would have this big thing, and I need his help. And I would get not only would I get nothing, but he would just do go off and do something trivial. So it looked like, Yeah, I got no help on this thing. And, and so, and I couldn't get any cooperation, and I needed his cooperation. So but what I realized is that he just would get, when things would get, he will get over kind of maxed out in his mind. His mind is very works great when it's kind of light and diffuse. And there's not too much, you know, he doesn't have anything on it. As soon as there's something kind of more intense, it just would make him a little bit sort of destabilized and uneasy. And so his way of sort of diffusing that would be to walk around the way that I do when I'm sort of brainstorming, it would kind of keep my thoughts from gathering in any one place. And they kind of loiter otherwise. And if I walk around Somehow, I don't know, they sort of disperse. And so it's so his, that I realized that he could feel that there was something that he had required of him, and to get himself sort of ready. And to handle it, he would kind of go out. And I would go in. And because he wasn't coming in, I thought he wasn't taking things seriously. And I thought well, now I have this person that I picked specifically because he was young at heart and fun and funny. And that's the version that I'm trying to work things out with, I have myself to blame, because he just looked like he just doesn't want to adult. He doesn't want to do any adulting. That's what it looked like to me. And na n because he wouldn't respond. It looked like he wasn't taking it in. But he he would. He would always a few days later, he'd he'd mentioned it, or I pack at him. And he mentioned it. And but there was always afterthoughts in there, and he'd go someplace with it. And sometimes we'd have to have more conversations, but I didn't realize anything was happening in there. And I didn't understand that he, he has to go out. That's his version of handling, it was to kind of disperse. And it looked to me like he was fleeing the scene. So I would kind of get frustrated. And then when I get frustrated, he would get a little bit more he was just like a like a horse, he could kind of heat spook you he's very spooky. So, so it would be better. So I learned how to be lighter, I had to tell him Look, you kind of stay in the room a little longer than that. And if you go and come back, don't go in and turn on this thing. You got to go in and draw, that's fine if you wander around, but don't go and make a noise. And I tell him but I had to learn, oh, I have to be much softer. And I need to be much more approachable in the way I talk. I can't be pointy. I have to my feeling has to be easy to listen to. And then I could I could squeeze any message through the whole ledges. But if but if I was pointy or impatient or intense at all, I couldn't squeeze anything through there. So I just and I had to just float it and then be willing room to walk around and leave it and then he'd always come around. So it was took me probably 15 years to learn that. And so I kind of it was a it was a relief. When I when I figured that one out.
Rohini Ross:It's definitely the long game, right?
Erika Bugbee:Yes, it is the long game. And he would have gotten a very bad score. If you could leave reviews. If he ended up back in like the dating circuit on an app. You would have been the kind of person you'd run from review I was gonna give them when it comes to handling things. But I also realized, you know, I have to I have to be I have to be accountable for the way I talk. It's on me as a talker. I didn't feel any accountability that while I'm just saying the problem and if it's a problem of course it's going to come out, upset. And I realized that, that's, that's reckless of me, I'm stepping on the relationship and I, it's I have to be user friendly in the way I talk. It's not on him to be a good listener, I have to, you know, at least I have to start with being a better talker. And then I feel like, you know, that's because I want that for people. And I, and I didn't realize I thought I was entitled to talk over I wanted, if it was a big deal, and he was wrong. You know, I thought they thought I was kind of that. And that was, so that was, you know, I mean,
Rohini Ross:what's one of the favorite things your husband does for you.
Erika Bugbee:One of my favorite things, his presence is so easy that I can kind of just draft on his presence, the way that he is, you know, in between his sort of moments of, you know, his shortcomings and his weaknesses, and his upsets, as he has moods to like the rest of us. But, you know, when he's not in a good mood, you know, the rest of the time, just his normal state of being is just, I know, I, it's like, he's like, on a, like, on an inner tube, float in a river, but not the like, rapids kind. Like, that's what it feels like. And I feel like, yeah, I feel like I'm, I don't know, I kind of feel like sometimes I'm the person that's on the side of the river, like, with flip flops, trying to, like, walk over these rocks. Like, that's what it feels like, sometimes, just in the I don't know, the everyday mechanics. And then there's this guy, just on a tube, going the same pace, if not faster, and, and not having to do anything, but maybe the occasional, like, splash this way, or that way to redirect. And, and I feel like, you know, it's really easy for me to just, you know, he's in touch with the same life and the same reality and the same things. You know, we're up against the same things. And yet, he just seems to have a way of sort of hanging back and responding to things. And being in life, just in the moment to moment. His his way of being it's just a much easier way. And if I didn't, if I didn't see it for myself, I don't know if I would think that was possible. And I think I, I've learned to hang back, then it was a fairly easy going person in a lot of ways to begin with, and not super excitable in terms of getting really upset and worked up. But he gets, he leans back a lot sooner than I do. And it's generally that's his come from, whereas I have to find my way back there. Because I'll get either amped up about things. And you know, what, kind of excitable in my mind no move too fast for me to track or I'll get kind of irritable. He just is sort of eyes like a Clydesdale, you know, those big draft horses are sort of just steady. And I feel like he's like clomping along and I feel like I get a little, you know, I'm zipping around, and I really don't need to be. So that's my favorite feature.
Angus Ross:Well, what is the least favorite thing your partner does?
Erika Bugbee:The least favorite thing? have several finalists. But I know I have to just pick one. I think my least favorite thing is that he will kind of get on board and collude with me in certain ways, that I know is not good. For me. Having a partner is so nice sometimes because they don't react to things. There's so many things, they don't react to the same way you do. They kind of rub off on you or they check you a little bit. He will be easy going about something. I'll get a burger and my saddle about it. And then he'll get influenced by me. And I let him because I want somebody in my corner. But then we're both in my corner. And then I have to shut him up. Because I always come around, you know, I'll get mad at things frustrated at a person or a thing. But I just, I just really I steer right into it. I think it's because I work with teenagers for 20 years every day. I just go right into it. I mean, I don't you know, I keep it to myself. I don't go out and public with it. But I really like I'll just be willing to just be scathing in my mind about something, but then it's out of my system. Next day, well, he's, he's on that page, now he lives on that page about that thing. And I and then I'll he'll pull me back into it. And I have to tell him to stop out. This is my thing. And you, you know, you can't do that, then and Hill, he's, you know, in a way I love he's not influenced by me in certain ways because you know, he'll be slow and steady. But when he does get influenced by me, you know, he kind of in a way, trust me a little too much in health. I'm much more thoughtful, I'm much more I can read a situation really fast. And he didn't see it, because he's not, you know, hyper focused on things, he doesn't take things personally, or he doesn't make a big deal out of something. See ill intent and something. But once I see it, he'll say, You're right, I didn't catch that. And then, and then I have to neutralize him, because I'll be over my bad attitude The next day, and he's still in that camp. So in a sense, he's kind of listens to me a little bit too much, and is a little too loyal to my cause. He lets me contaminate the waters, and then I live in contaminated water. So it's really hard to get them out of that.
Rohini Ross:So you may not have any, but if Do you have any relationship deal breakers, and why?
Unknown:They've all reared their ugly heads if there were no, I don't, I don't think so I think that if there was going to be a relationship deal breaker, it would have been that I was more, I think he would agree with us too. I was I've been just sort of relentless in handling whatever parenting challenges, and not having a bad attitude. And I don't tolerate a bad attitude about our kids. And, and about the, you know, the enormous and sometimes very seemingly unfair amount of effort you put in, and, and you don't, you know, you don't get that back. And it's, you know, there's just, there's some way in which you can kind of get traumatized by certain parts of parenting that are hard. And, and you don't know how they're gonna go. And you're kind of, you can, you know, you can kind of get either disheartened or feel a little bit jaded or, you know, sort of concern have sort of a level of concern, or, I don't know, almost like, feeling like, you, you don't know if it's gonna work out or not, and sort of having lost faith in life a little bit, because you don't really know what just happened, you get, it can get a little traumatized by it. And, and that can color your, you know, some times that sort of colored my experience of the whole thing. Whereas I feel like other areas of life when things go badly with like a job or a something else, or, or a relationship, you sort of feel like, well, you live and learn, or we just weren't, you know, the timing was bad. But somehow I feel like people can kind of not recover from parenting in a certain way and feel like, they let their kid down, or they made mistakes, and they can't get past it. And I don't, I just don't tolerate that is, you know, I don't like it. And I don't tolerate it. And so I'll get sort of, you know, there would be times where, when we were at odds the most in our parenting is when I felt like, Look, we can't afford to do that. If you're gonna do that, then you're gonna have to go outside. For something like get that out of here. I'm not going to handle the problems because I was just, I was involved in the mechanics more. And you know what I felt like, Look, I can't afford to have that around, because I'm not going to take things on and do it and have to put up with the noise over here in the end, and I can't have any of that rub off on me, because I just got my shit together about that. So So if there was going to be a deal breaker, I think we both say that would have been it when the parenting got robbed is kind of I got, you know, you know, we that was there was going to be a divide it would have been there. I never I'd rather go it alone and have I can't afford it.
Angus Ross:How do you keep physical intimacy alive in your relationship?
Erika Bugbee:These are good questions. You know, I feel like this is in a way. I found that it works in the same way that I've had to get my fondness for his good features. One out over the things about him that drive me crazy. And I think if he's still with me, then he probably would say the same thing, personality wise, you, you know, after 25 years, or how long however long it's been, you, you get really, you either get really good at overlooking things in them, or you, you can't stand them or you've left them. So So I think, you know, we both had gotten good at that, in our own way. And I think that the intimacy part of it, I'm only interested in what attracts me to. I'm just not really interested in what I'm not attracted to, in the same way that I'm not interested in what's attractive about other people. I'm just not interested in it. So not that I don't have moments. And I know he does, too. Everybody does, where you'll see somebody else, it's attractive. And then if they're not, you know, on TV, you're actually in your life, you kind of know, like, I like that person's attractive to me. And, and it's just a very distinct I kind of, I'm not interested in it any more than if they were, that person showed an interest in me, I would be even less interested. So I sort of I sort of, I don't know, in a way, I think, maybe because I'm a very, I'm super impulsive. I don't, I have always sort of as a teenager, I was very sort of adventurous, and I would try anything. I was just very edgy group of friends. And, and I think because I'm impulsive. I know, there's certain things that I have to sort of be mindful about. So I just won't let anything in if it's as a chance of carrying me someplace. And in the same way that I know if I'm going to exercise, if I don't do it in the two minute period, right after I think to exercise, I'm not exercising, not because I'm disciplined, because I'm completely undisciplined. And I have a two minute window. And if I miss it, I'm not exercising. So I know, I know that about me. And I think, and I think I know that about people. And I know that because of biology. There's certain things you just don't let in, in the same way that I know I if I let myself have a bad attitude about one of my kids. I know where that would go. I just died is don't let it.
Rohini Ross:Great. Last question, Erika, and thank yo for being so generous with you time
Erika Bugbee:No, these ar great.
Rohini Ross:If you could only say one thing to your partner, what would you want to say?
Unknown:I think if I was gonna say one thing to him, I think it would just be to thank him for, like, sticking with me. Because I feel like you know, we can't there's nowhere to hide in a relationship. You know, that. There's just, if it's a meaningful relationship, and you and you stick together, you can't hide your, you know, how you get no matter how much no matter how good you are, where the restraining or overlooking You can't hide it and, and I'm I I constantly feel like he's, like, so forgiving and overlooking that I kind of feel like he's, you know, he can't possibly see straight, like, like, he can't be catching all of this. And I, I I really feel like I feel so fortunate that I found somebody that not only brings so much to the table, but but it's so willing to let me off the hook for all the things that you know, that sticks with me even though I feel like sometimes like i don't know if i if i would stick with me. I don't know. I don't know if you know, I think by 49 you kind of see there's there's things I hate certain things that I've done or done or sad or handled things and and they you know they are exposed to all of these your worst traits and I'm think it just would be that I'm I'm so grateful that he's not only stuck with me, but he seems to be into it. I don't know, I guess some kind of a meet and kind of like surprise in a way sometimes.
Rohini Ross:That's beautiful Erika, so touching.
Angus Ross:He sounds like a keeper, he is well, yeah
Unknown:The question is, am I a keeper? so far? I think, Yes, he is. He is a keeper. He's He's a great guy. And I can't I can't believe that I like, I don't know, landed him. I really feel like makes sense. I'm like his I feel so happy.
Rohini Ross:Well, thank you for everything, Erica, for the wisdom that you shared at the beginning for the fresh insights that you're having for answering our questions at the end. It's just been such a delightful conversation.
Unknown:Yeah, thank you for letting me be a part of what a cool I love what you're doing. I always love the things you guys do. All your projects are so good. But But I love that this is like such an interesting twist of these questions. And, and it's so ad lib and things I've never thought about. It's it's kind of it's kind of cool to have to have to come up with something from the heart that I've never formulated or thought about really a coherent thought, let alone set it in a way that you guys don't have to edit. So anyway, thank you so much for inviting me and for, you know, having me back. It's been really nice.
Angus Ross:Oh, it's so lovely. And it's been so rich and content. But you know, I always learned so much from hearing you talk. So thank you. It's been a real blessing for us to have you on this.
Erika Bugbee:Yeah, I hope it I hope it's helpful to your audience.
Rohini Ross:Yeah, I'm sure it will be. It's been helpful to so I'm sure it'll be helpful to them.
Angus Ross:Yeah.
Rohini Ross:All right. Well, thank you so much. And we'll include your information so people can reach out to you if they want to contact you. Thank you so much for listening to rewilding love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.
Angus Ross:iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.
Rohini Ross:If you would like to learn more about our work and our online rewilding community, please visit our website, the rewilders.org
Angus Ross:Thanks for listening. Join us next week.