Awaken to Love

EP21: Christine Heath & Judy Sedgeman: The Renegades

• Angus & Rohini Ross • Season 1 • Episode 21

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Christine Heath and Judy Sedgeman discuss why they believe psychology has it backward. Psychology looks at things through a "causal lens" whereas Christine and Judy help their clients understand the role of thought in creating their experience. Psychological analysis can be intellectually stimulating, but it doesn't necessarily result in sustainable transformation. 

Judy and Christine reflect on their fresh look at the fundamental causes of stress and distress, instead of the traditional model of analysis and desensitization. They share how this not only creates a more graceful experience for their clients, but also for themselves. Providing therapy and consultation from the vantage point of knowing your client is innately healthy, rather than focusing on mental illness, is a total paradigm shift.

This episode explores:

  • Traditional psychology vs. Spiritual Psychology
  • How to avoid burnout as a mental health provider
  • Being descriptive vs. prescriptive
  • Making space for insight instead of analysis
  • Psychological freedom that emerges without suffering

Show Notes
Bats in the belfry: a British way of saying "batshit cray"
Educare: the etymology of the word educate, meaning to "draw out"
Guys, gals, actors, actresses: Rohini and Angus begin the episode in a bit of a tiff over whether "guys" can be considered gender-neutral. Rohini believes guys is not a gender-neutral term, even if women use it.  And women actors requesting to be called actors instead of actresses is a separate argument -- one that deals with equality in a profession's terminology. The argument for all genders to be referred to as "actor", is in favor of not being reductive of the profession, and categorizing one actor as being different (or less than) from another.  The way we refer to teachers regardless of their gender as "teachers."

Christine Heath is a licensed marriage and family therapist in both Hawaii and Minnesota, as well as a Master Addictions Counselor and a Certified Substance Abuse Counselor.  She is also the co-author of the book “The Secret of Love: Unlock the Mystery, Unleash the Magic”. In 1985, she co-founded the Hawaii Counseling and Education Center, an outpatient mental health and addictions program, and is the Executive Director.

Judith Sedgeman has been a mental health educator for over 30 years. She was named a Three Principles Practitioner by Sydney Banks. She works with a vast variety of client populations. She was on the faculty of the Medical School of West Virginia University, Morgantown, WV, for 13 years, and is the author of the forthcoming book It All Started with a Bird, to be published in Spring 2021.

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.

Episode 21 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.

Angus Ross:

Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross:

This is episode number 21. An interview with Christine Heath and Judy Sedgman.

Judy Sedgeman:

Chris said we could call it psychology has it backwards because what the hell were two old broads. We could say whatever we want.

Rohini Ross:

I love that you're both being renegades. We're not trying to be rude, but to be disruptive, which we are. This podcast is ultimately about helping couples navigate the humaneness of relationship and rewilding be alive, nucynta relationship.

Judy Sedgeman:

I did work for several years with young women who were being rescued from prostitution.

Christine Heath:

The more you think about something, the harder it is to forget it.

Judy Sedgeman:

He doesn't have to forgive you, you would have to forgive you.

Angus Ross:

You realize that we can let that go. Then there's a whole new window of love and understanding.

Rohini Ross:

Thinking does not define us. If you just look at this is how people work, then you don't have to have all those rules. Self forgiveness is not an intellectual process is something that comes from the heart. Everybody is innately healthy, then that's missing in all of psychology.

Angus Ross:

We are spiritual alchemists. You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross:

and me Rohini Ross.

Angus Ross:

Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross:

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewilded

Angus Ross:

Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor and their work,

Rohini Ross:

and how it has helped them in their relationships.

Angus Ross:

Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross:

We're really grateful to have Christine Heath and Judy Sedgman with us on this podcast episode. Christine Heath has been a Licensed Marriage Family Therapist for nearly 45 years. And Judy Sedgman has been a mental health educator for more than 30 years. And they both learned directly from Sidney Banks. Judy has a forthcoming book called It all started with a bird, that's going to be coming out this spring. And Christine is also the executive director of the Hawaii counseling and Education Center. And they also have a podcast called Psychology got it backwards. So we look forward to hearing from them about how they think psychology has got it backwards.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this interview. And you know, on a purely selfish level, I feel like, obviously, we're doing these podcasts to provide a service to humanity. That sounds so grandiose. But on a purely selfish level. I feel like I get to sit down with these incredible teachers and get to learn from them and make no mistake about it. These guys are incredible teachers. Oh, I said, Guys, you don't like that. Do you? Not allowed to say guys, I don't know why? Because everybody says guys, our daughter says guys. Everybody says guys, what's wrong with that? Why is that problematic?

Rohini Ross:

I guess it's my feminist sensitivities to having women referred to as guys.

Angus Ross:

But you only really started getting on this kick around guys. It's just sort of a sudden it's problem.

Rohini Ross:

No, it's always been there. We had to have been recording a podcast before

Angus Ross:

You've always had this this sense that that's inappropriate term for me to say.

Rohini Ross:

Yes, since I did my feminist dissertation in about 1992.

Angus Ross:

But you've only recently got on this kick of making get make challenging me?

Rohini Ross:

Oh, yeah. Because you're saying on a podcast?

Angus Ross:

It's because I'm putting it out there in the public domain. Usually, if you've learned how to tolerate it,

Rohini Ross:

Yes.

Angus Ross:

Now you're embarrassed for our branding being corrupted,

Rohini Ross:

Oh not our branding. It feels insensitive. I just don't like that insensitivity from you.

Angus Ross:

Guys, but Well, okay. So let me ask you this. So, nowadays, a female and a male, are referred to in the acting community as actors, rather than an actress or an actor. Isn't it? same sort of thing?

Rohini Ross:

Well, would you like it if I called you a gal?

Angus Ross:

Quite amused by that.

Rohini Ross:

But would you like being referred to as a woman?

Angus Ross:

Well, then why would a woman want to be referred to as an actor as opposed to an actress?

Rohini Ross:

Well, I don't know who made that determination. And maybe they felt actor was a gender neutral term.

Angus Ross:

Well, I thought I feel like guys has become a gender neutral term.

Rohini Ross:

I don't know.

Angus Ross:

I distilled itself. into a gender neutral term by virtue of the fact that I hear a lot of women use that term.

Rohini Ross:

Well, I guess it's one of my idiosyncrasies

Angus Ross:

It is,

Rohini Ross:

but it's coming from a good place in the sense that it's about recognizing that, guys in my mind isn't a gender neutral term. And I don't know that it's very respectful to refer to women as guys.

Angus Ross:

Well, in my mind, this is just taking pcns way too far, because I feel like that has become a gender neutral term. And I probably have taken that on board by virtue of the fact that I hear so many women use that term people, women that I've worked with my own kids use that the teachers use that term I've heard for teachers address the class on numerous occasions as, Hey, you guys. Can we can we have a little bit more quiet now? How you guys have got? Have you got your lunch ready? It's like, it's just become part of the vernacular as a very gender neutral term. And I think, I don't know, just take it to taking it too far. It's just, it's having a position. Where this is, this is a very innocuous term as far as I'm concerned.

Rohini Ross:

But we're gonna have to agree to disagree, because I think it is not a gender neutral term. And I don't like it being used to refer to women.

Angus Ross:

I guess, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think it just paints us just a bit of a PC maniac.

Rohini Ross:

That's okay. If you want to call me that.

Angus Ross:

Well, I guess this is probably one of those situations where people might think we're bickering.

Rohini Ross:

Well, no, I think there are times when people think we're bickering when we're not. But this is one of those times when we're actually bickering,

Angus Ross:

This is bona fide bickering.

Rohini Ross:

But I think we should include it. Because this is all about authenticity, and realness. And we wouldn't want people to think that our relationship is perfect somehow.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, I guess so. Anyway, I'm over it now. As long as you're accepting on are okay with the fact that I think you're a PC maniac.

Rohini Ross:

I've known that you thought that about me for many years, so I'm fine with that. PC maniac. What's the other one? Is there a feminist one that

Angus Ross:

always I always used to sort of think that anybody from Canada maybe fall under the same mental cuz I would say that was PC Wonderland, which is really unfair on Canada. He's not been a very good ambassador for Canada on that front. I guess.

Rohini Ross:

I think I'm a great ambassador for Canada. But isn't there a feminist one use against me too.

Angus Ross:

What do you mean? No, I don't think so.

Rohini Ross:

I'm just imagining

Angus Ross:

I'm not anti feminist. I'm just like, there's a limit to how much pithiness I can put up with on any given day.

Rohini Ross:

All right. Well, let's go to Christine and Judy.

Angus Ross:

Sounds good.

Rohini Ross:

Judy, and, Christine, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. And one of the things that we're really excited about is your podcast called Psychology has it backwards. And we will share your full BIOS with everyone for the episode. But we would just love for you to share more about how your podcast came into being and what the title really means. So whoever like to start.

Judy Sedgeman:

I will say this, it came to being when we were with you last year in California, the last time any of us was free before COVID. And, you know, Chris and I were talking about what we would do together next because we love working together and you brought us together. And we were having a great time. And Chris said we should do a podcast.

Rohini Ross:

I love it.

Judy Sedgeman:

And then Chris said we could call it Psychology has it backwards, because what the hell were two old Brides, we could say whatever we want.

Christine Heath:

That's right. And in fact, one of our colleagues, I put something out to her about it. And she got back She goes, Oh, you can't do that. I said, why not? And she said, Well, because people would get upset. I said, good. I said, That's it shouldn't be it should be unsettling to people. Yeah. So it is we kind of decided we'd step out there and, and be a little bit more bold, about talking about how psychology basically has been looking at the experience of the human being as being causal. Like, I'm this way because this happened and that happened. And and I'm, we've kind of spent the time looking at the content of what people think or the content of what people feel and the content of what people do in their life. And so we were thinking like really that's, that's too late already. It's like once people do it, they've already done it, right. So like you want to help people to see that they can live in a different state of mind that produces healthier thoughts and feelings and behaviors.

Judy Sedgeman:

Yeah, and the other. The other thing is we Chris and I are both into simplicity. And we don't really, and we've, for years, people say, what's the difference between what you do in the three principles and what psychology does, and we would launch into these long involved, you know, polite explanations, which kind of was the right thing, the right thing to do. And, you know, it's so easy to just say, Okay, well, we would say psychology has it backwards, because they're looking in the direction of finding cause and effect in your past to explain what you're doing right now. And we're looking at what you're thinking in the moment to explain what you're doing right now. And the past doesn't have anything to do with it. And that's so much easier to explain to people. I mean, that's a simple statement, and they go well, that's interesting. You know, and I found that since people have been talking to me about our podcasts, that they're much quicker to kind of ask the right questions. You know, like, and so I, you know, we kind of stumbled into it, we're not trying to be rude, but to be disruptive, which we are, when you think about it, our field is disruptive, because and I've been talking to people about this, who want us to, you know, lecture alongside other people, like I get invited, sometimes by universities to come and talk like on a panel, and I won't do it anymore. Because, you know, I'm, what I'm gonna say is going to is that everybody else on the panel has a backwards, essentially, in so many words, and it just isn't, there's pointless because it just confuses people, I'd rather just talk about it. And, you know, let people reflect on it.

Christine Heath:

And you know, it's innocent, you know, that, that psychology is taking this test, because if you sit down and talk to people, when they're upset, they'll tell you about their past, right? Because they're in their thinking, and what's in our thinking is kinda like a To me, it's like, my thinking is like Siri, like, the only thing that's in there is what I put in, right, so that's what I get out. So when you're in a low mood, what comes out of you is all your low mood experiences all the way you saw them the way it felt to you whether that's accurate or not. I mean, you could ask my mother and she'd say that things I remember from my childhood didn't happen. But you know, it's, that's what we carry through time. So it's innocent people listen, say, oh, they're upset because this happened. And then that happened, then you start analyzing this. It's like opening Pandora's box. And it's very interesting to analyze yourself is very, like, fascinating. Oh, yeah, this happened. And that happened, oh, this happened. But it is really doesn't make you happy. Just understand, you just understand why you're not, which is, you know, intellectually stimulating, but it doesn't really change you, it doesn't make you live without that experience without that kind of negative emotion.

Rohini Ross:

I love that you're both being renegades, and that the way that you're speaking to that is really simple and clear. And it makes a lot of sense. And in terms of our podcasts, and what we're sharing in terms of the relationship work we do. That's obviously the same foundation that we're working from, where couples think they're going to come to us as in share what Angus calls the laundry list of woes, which they do usually do in the first session, we want to know what their laundry list is. But then they're surprised that That isn't what we spend the whole time with them together looking at that we actually separate them out. And we help them understand where their experiences actually coming from. It's not coming from that laundry list. And the way that they think it is, is coming from what you're saying in terms of what they're identifying within the moment, what's what they're bringing to life. So I think that's really beautiful. And you're expanding it to show it's not just about relationships, it's about all areas of mental health.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, it's like, well, let's go hang that out to dry, I will go and do something else. But they are they feel so compelled to share it, nevertheless. But it's nice to get out the way early on.

Rohini Ross:

And it's true that when we're in a low mood, that is all we want to talk about, like I have my laundry list with you and I'm alone mood like that will come out. But it's like the the perspective is off. And no good is ever going to come from that. Yeah. And you know, that's just the problem with their own thinking is we all think we're right, and when we're a low, low mood, we're actually more right. Then when we're not you know, like when you're happy you're like, Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, no big deal is if we're easy going right. which one you're in a bad mood and you're upset about something? He's like, no, I need to make my point. And, you know, it's like, there's this nature of thought that makes it seem like it's almost like this thought is better thought you need to pay attention to it, you need to address it, you need to fix it. And I think that's the thing is you never get to the end of it when you're doing it that way. Because there's just new things that keep coming up, or the old things come back. You know, that's, they used to say, you know, this to say all the time, like, yo, you can never please a woman, because when she gets upset, she brings out everything and the kitchen sink, right? It's like,

Judy Sedgeman:

you know, it's, this is a funny story. But, you know, years ago, when I first got started in the principles, I moved to La Conner for about almost 10 years and worked with the Pranskys, and I, the first time I ever sat in a couple with George Pransky. This couple came in and their complaint was they they couldn't even talk to each other. They just had him they called it a communication problem. We just can't even talk to each other. And so after we had talked to them separately, and kind of compared notes, George brought that couple together. And he said, Well, thank God, you haven't been talking to each other, it's a blessing. And the guy said, What do you mean, and we were married, we live in the same house. And we just turned our backs, we don't talk. He said, Well, given what you had to say about each other thats dawmn good. That sums up what Chris was just saying, you know, when you really get upset and you're in a low mood, you got nothing good to say. It never gets better. until until your state of mind shifts. Fortunately, by the end of their intensive they they got that they thought it was funny, but

Rohini Ross:

Well, it seems very apropos that they're talking about low moods, because I would say we started off the conversation with a bit of a wobbler.

Angus Ross:

I guess so. I think I don't know how obvious that wobble was, it was more of a subtle problem. Maybe not? I don't know, I don't know how the audience would receive it.

Rohini Ross:

Well, I definitely felt like it was a bit of a wobble between us.

Angus Ross:

Yes, I, I definitely found myself being irritated. For sure. So I guess that would qualify as a as a low mood.

Rohini Ross:

And I definitely could feel myself taking it personally that you called me pc maniac.

Angus Ross:

Right. And also in terms of what Christine just said, I was finding myself really feeling like I need to win this, this argument is defend myself, get on my Hill and put, put my reinforcements in, do battle.

Rohini Ross:

You're even going to engage our daughter and validated your position.

Angus Ross:

I had a whole slew of reference points that I could use.

Rohini Ross:

So what I think is really helpful in terms of what happened between us at the beginning of the podcast is seeing the resiliency and the bounce pack that in that situation that could have ended up in a, you know, a huge fight with us both in our corners not not being willing to sort of have that space to agree to disagree. But ultimately, when we both settle down, we're able to I mean, that's how I'm feeling. I don't know how you're feeling right now.

Angus Ross:

But Youre still a PC maniac.

Rohini Ross:

But I kind of can hear that as a term of endearment now.

Angus Ross:

I guess, in deference to separate realities, that's possible.

Rohini Ross:

You're not meeting it that way

Angus Ross:

No, I am, is is yes, I can see that. You know, you have your quirks and foibles. And thats just one of them

Rohini Ross:

in your mind? But I think the resiliency of relationships. And this podcast is ultimately about helping couples navigate the humaneness of relationship and rewilding the aliveness into relationship. And that having room for our experience is an important part of that. So it's not going to be helpful for you not to say that, that you think that about me or that that's your opinion. And it's not going to be helpful for me to not share what's important to me and as referring to our old podcast with George and Linda Pransky. There was definitely hair on it

Angus Ross:

Was definitely hair on it. unclean and a little bit dandruff he maybe

Rohini Ross:

that's relationship is gonna have hair on it. And it's about finding a way to bounce back from that. loving each other even with a good metaphor, but like that's the richness of relationship.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Rohini Ross:

And so now we go into a little bit more of a sea on this topic in terms of looking at how Christine and Judy approach, navigating trauma, and what they see around that, that might be different than more traditional psychological approaches.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, this is an important one.

Rohini Ross:

In terms of beyond just the area of relationship, one of the issues that came up in the podcast that we just did was a navigating having a history of sexual abuse and trauma in that area. And I know that both of you have a lot of experience working with clients who've dealt with those issues. And so we'd really love to hear from you what you have seen in terms of how psychology has it backwards, related to navigating recovery and healing from that.

Angus Ross:

And you are so the perfect experts for us to have on in the wake of our podcast based on what happened and what unfolded.

Christine Heath:

Two things that are scary when I listen to what happened with a couple that you worked with, is very common, that I found is that when people get healthier, things come to mind that they didn't even weren't conscious of anymore that they kind of protected themselves from, but they come to mind in a different way. Like what I used to do is make people have that come to mind, you know, like, let's go back in your past, let's figure out what happened. Talk to me about what happened, go through it again, relive it, try to change it in your mind as you do it. I mean, I can't remember all the things I did. But now, what I do is what you did is I work with people, and teach them about how their health works, how that innate state of mental well being works, and how thought works. And then as they get into a better state of consciousness into a better state of mind, things will come to mind that they recognize like, Oh, I bet that's because I went through this. And then I started thinking this, oh, I don't need to do that anymore. So there, they have a freedom that comes without suffering. Now, what I did do what psychology as it, it does, most not everybody, but the general consensus is that you do things like flooding, which means that you take people back and you make them relive it like in the military, they even have like, like simulators where they have body parts flying around. And it's just really trying to desensitize people to their own memories. And that's kind of like trying to change the feeling the thought creates, right, but it's really hard to do that. And when you get in a low mood, it doesn't work. The old one comes back, right. And sometimes it gets even more pronounced. Because the more you think about it, the more real it gets, the more real it gets, the more you think about it, and it becomes a spiral. So what, what I did back in the day was try to get people to process that, you know, like processing is such a big word, think about it, analyze it, do something with it. Whereas now just teaching people that it is just thought and not a reality. It's not like, like, to me I talk to people about the past, like it was the room down the hall. Like, okay, let's go in the past, like there was somewhere to go. But it's just that we're thinking in the moment. And when we help people to see that and that no matter what's happened to them, no matter what they've done, no matter the circumstances of their life, that innate health has always been there. Then they start to see like how they survived through that. They start to see like, Oh yeah, I did this and oh, I had my head wisdom about this. I follow it and it's interesting to see how the whole experience changes when you come at it from a different angle. When you come at it as if the past exists, and you've got to go back into it to fix it. It's It's really good. It's hopeless because it doesn't matter how many times you do it just gets more real.

Judy Sedgeman:

Yeah, I it's funny, I had this. This is really was a sad story, but it ended okay. But I used to do a number of groups for veterans with PTSD for veterans court program here where I live. And a lot of the veterans were going up to the VA hospital and they were going through that that what Chris was talking about this re experiencing, and it's it's what do you call it the reality thing where you put on the glasses and you're back there and they had things like Humvees blowing up in your face. thrown out of the Humvee and, you know, your friends brains, pacify them, oh, it's terrible. And these guys were traumatized every time they went up there for this treatment. And they would in my group was the next day. And that was it, you know, so one of them came in, and he said, You know, I almost committed suicide last night, he said, I just was, I couldn't get out of my mind. And it was so close to what really happened to me, and, and I, and I couldn't do anything about it. And, and, and I, and I just, I wanted to stop the stop the program, and the guy wouldn't let me and he kept, you know, he had these things on me. And he said, I was just desperate. And he said, the only thing that saved me was I knew I was coming to this group today. And I thought, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wait until after the group. And I said, Well, why do you keep going back there? every time, every time you guys come here, you telling me how painful and horrible it is? And how it isn't helping you? Why do you Why do you keep going back? And they said, Well, you know, the government is funding, this is a big program and the VA, and there's a lot of money invested in it. And and our, our, you know, senior officers tell us that we need to do this. And I said, Well, you know, my feeling is that anything you do that isn't helping you, is probably not a good idea to keep doing. And I said, it's sort of like if you start brushing your teeth too hard and your gums bleed, you know, your dentist may say, Well, your teeth are nice and clean. But meanwhile your gums are receding. And at some point, you have to find a happy medium. And so I would say follow your heart and do the things that help you and don't do the things that don't help you. And they stopped going out, they all talk to each other. I got in some trouble over that. But I said I didn't tell them not to go. I told him, I told him exactly what I told him. And I said, You know, I, if I were running a program, that was people were getting sick and being feeling suicidal after they were part of it, I would have to ask myself, am I doing the right thing. And I said, you know, if I'm running a program, when people walk out smiling, and they say thank you, I really feel better, it was a good, it was a good experience, then I would feel like well, I might not be really great at it. But I'm at least not hurting anybody. And in the end, there's something nicer is happening for them. And one of the psychologists that I was talking to said, well, you don't understand, you have to go through it to get out of it. And that's one of the ways I think in psychology has it backwards, the idea that you can go through it, and it'll be behind you. Because every time you bring it up, it's thought becomes a reality in that moment, and you relive it and they don't understand the nature of thought. So they don't realize that every time you try to go back through it, you're actually reliving it as though it was happening right now. Because as soon as those thoughts come to mind, you have all the feelings and the experience, the actual experience, you live it. And that's not going through it that's being stuck in it.

Christine Heath:

You remember that conference duty that you did at West Virginia. And we you did it with the behavioral health people, and they were bringing information that kind of supported what we did. And so this one guy talks about memory. And he said that one of the things that they discovered is that the more you think about something, the harder it is to forget it. So I went up to him afterwards. And I said, Well, have you thought about going to behavioral health people and telling him this? And he looked at me, like this really weird look. And I said, they take people back in the past and talk about what happened to them over and over and over again, wouldn't this data show that that was not best practices. And he was like, stunned, he just kind of walked away from me. I've got a really good example of this. I had a woman that came in. And she was a young woman, maybe 23,24. And she had been in the system, you know, she'd been in foster care system in the system a lot growing up. And when she came in at a lot of things were happening to her and I said, Now, is there a chance you were sexually abused when you're a child? And she said, I don't think so. I don't remember anything. And so, you know, we just kind of went on and she learned about how thought worked, and she got in a better place. And she stopped seeing me and then she came back about a year later a year and a half later, and she'd gotten married and was now in a different situation. And when she came back I said to her I said, by chance Did you ever remember anything that happened to you when you were growing up? And she said, Oh my god, I remembered I was sexually abused like four or five times. No wonder I was such a mess. It was like she she didn't have to me it's it the way I describe it. It feels like the past is a movie went to. It was it was a good movie. But you don't have that personal, like, this is me that I am my experience. And it's becomes like something that happened, but not to my soul. You know, like it doesn't, doesn't touch that. And that's I think what's helpful to people, it doesn't mean that, you know, these things didn't happen to you, you know, like trauma happens maybe 10 minutes, maybe an hour, I mean, I guess you could be like, you know, chained up and locked away for four years. But by and large, the trauma that people have doesn't last very long. But that carries through, it becomes a big in their life.

Rohini Ross:

Well, that was very unfortunate that Christine's gardeners showed up outside her window in the middle of our podcast.

Angus Ross:

Yes, that's been a feature of our lives in LA. And to be honest, just as an aside, if you're, if you'll indulge me, I just want to be one of my big pet hates moving to LA are those leaf blowers, which just seem like it's just part of the audio landscape, landscape. Please, don't knock it

Rohini Ross:

the land scrape on your ears

Angus Ross:

is scraping on my ears on a daily basis.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, so it was unfortunate because she was kind of on a roll. But I think that it's important to emphasize what she was demonstrating in terms of that research is that what we focus on gets reinforced, and we experience it more fully, and it's harder to get over. And that's where some of these other approaches to trauma can be difficult for people to navigate. And obviously, they help some people, but they don't necessarily help everybody and that for the work that we do that's in alignment with how Christine and Judy work, we're really looking at how to point people to that place of peace of mind and well being within themselves, rather than reliving the content of their experience so that they can experience a greater level of resiliency as a result of that.

Judy Sedgeman:

That reminds me when I was working, I did work for several years with young women who were being rescued from prostitution. And I remember having this conversation and in many ways, many times with this one particular conversation with a woman who had really changed a lot, you know, through the time that I've been meeting with her and she was getting ready to graduate from the program into kind of a halfway house and then they and they're on their own. And she was getting her children back. She was very excited about that, because they had taken her children away and so she said, the only thing that worries me now is that I'd love to have like a real life, you know, I have these two young children and I'd love for them to have the experience of having a normal dad and, uh, you know, a nice home and or I could just be a mom and, and, you know, we and just have the kind of life that I always used to think about when I was a kid. And I said, Well, what would prevent you from that? And she said, Oh, my God, I was a prostitute for 10 years. And she said, I can't even count the number of men that have abused me that I've been with, and I've done terrible things and, and she said, You know, my pimp beat me and you know, I was starved half the time if I didn't produce and. And she said, you know, how do you how do you have a normal life after that? And I said, Well, how did you have that after you had a normal life at one point in his life goes on. And I said, The thing is, you were young, and it was terrible. And you ran away from a one negative situation only to find yourself in a worse situation and you were helpless to get out of it. You didn't know how to get out of it. And so I said, you know, you were you had the misfortune, like a lot of teenage girls of having a really bad job for your first job. It was a really bad job. And I'm sure you would never apply for that job. Oh, my gosh, never thought of it that way. And I say, Well, you know, you, you have to see your own innocence that we do things in life. In the state of mind we're in. I said, you know, young people that run away, they honestly don't believe that anything bad's going to happen to them because they're running from not to, and they don't know what they're going to run to. And they for some reason have this and it's an idea that, you know, somehow things will work out great on the street. And, you know, and then when they get caught up in these situations and are trapped. That's not It's not your fault. It's just something that happened as a result of the fact that you were, you know, confused and upset and you did a Have an act that lead to a bad place. But then now you're free. You understand what happened, you're out of it. And you're not going to forget it. But you don't have to think about it. And you don't even have to talk about it, you know? And she said, Well, what if I met somebody I really liked. And I told that person, you know, because I, I wouldn't want to keep secrets. If I really love somebody, I wouldn't want them keeping secrets for me. And I said, Well, why don't you wait and see what happens? Well, here's a funny thing. About six months later, she met a policeman in the Dairy Queen is standing in line and Dairy Queen, and he was behind her. And she she apologized, because she had was ordering for her kids to and it was kind of a big order. And she turned around, she said, I should have let you go first. Because I have these children. And I'm ordering it over all of us. And he said, Oh, no problem. He said, Where are you kids? And they were sitting over at a table and he waved and he said, Hi kids, shw will be there soon. And they started talking. And so then she said, Do you want to sit with us? Because he was there alone? And he said, Oh, I'd love to and they got in this big conversation. They really liked kids. And the next thing you know, she's dating him. And so she calls me up. And she says, Oh, my God, I'm dating a policeman. And I really liked him. But she said, I can't tell a policeman about what I used to do. She said, What was he gonna think? And I said, Well, you really like him, he seems like a nice guy, you don't want to keep secrets, you got to give it a shot. Well, he told me, she told him, and what he said was, Thank God you got out of that I am so grateful to have met you. Once you were free from that. And you know, he, he was completely, totally understood. And she was crying on the phone, she said, I just can't believe it. She said, I can't believe that he can forgive me. And I said, he doesn't have to forgive you, you would have to forgive you. Because that's really why people can't face things that they did in the past as they blame themselves. And one of the things that principals does for us as it lets us see that it what psychological innocence really is, is that you doing the best you can with the thinking that you have. And if it's flawed, and, and negative thinking and you're caught in it, the best you can do is survive it. You know, you do what you need to do, or you do what what you're stuck in doing until you can survive. And, you know, we're always in survival in a sense, but when it gets a lot nicer when our minds clear, and when we understand which thoughts to take seriously. And when she started to understand that she said, You know, it really helps him as a police officer, to talk to people that he arrested. Because instead of thinking them is at you know, he started coming home and telling her you know, instead of looking at these guys, I'm thinking well, they're just hardened criminals. You know, they're 19 years old, and there are any art and criminal and they're just, you know, worthless little runs, he would start realizing, boy, these kids are frightened, they're insecure, you know, they really have a lot going on in their life. I don't know anything about them. And and he would start talking to them. And you know, instead of throwing them in the police car, and then just telling jokes to his partner on the way to the, you know, jail, he would talk to them and say, what happened to you, son? How did you get in this situation. And as hard started going out to these people, and he really, he really helped a lot of people. And that was she opened the door to that by confessing to him what her life was, like, you know, before. And I don't think people realize the power of truth, told from a clear head. You know, and that's the difference when you're not feeling guilty. When you're not feeling bad about yourself. When you're not upset about what you did when you just see what the past is and what God is and how real it looks. Every time it comes to mind. That's powerful. And being able to talk about it from that level of consciousness from understanding it is powerful for the listener and for the person that hears it because the hearing truth.

Angus Ross:

I love that story. And I love that story as an example of how self forgiveness is such an important part of of growth and healing. And that it also demonstrates how it's so easy, easy to get caught up in the past when one is in a place of self judgment and self recrimination. And really, for me, self forgiveness just gives us this enormous opportunity to reboot back to the factory default settings which is you is one of love and innate well being. And I'm from that place, there's just an enormous amount of freedom. And I think that that's why self forgiveness is such an important part of most spiritual philosophy. Because it's a way that we move out of our conceptual minds, we move out of the pain that can get stored away in our memory banks. And we realize that we are, we are spiritual beings having this human experience, the human experience is often defined by thought and where we take that thinking. So if we spent many years in self judgment, that thought is not going to probably present us with a particularly healthy state of mind. But when we realize that we can let that go, then there's a whole new window opens up of, of, of love and understanding.

Rohini Ross:

I think that's what's so healing is recognizing that it doesn't matter how many years we might have been thinking something about ourselves, judging ourselves, that with a shift in our understanding, we can let it go, and that we can be free from it. And that it isn't anything other than waking up to the truth, that that thinking does not define us. The thinking that that woman had about herself was not the truth, even though it felt real. And it felt true to her and was defining her life. On one level, when she was able to see beyond that she was able to experience what is true, as you're saying, in terms of the love and understanding and the psychological innocence, that is true for all of us. And we can't get there. via the intellect. Self forgiveness is not an intellectual process. It is something that comes from the heart, it is something that comes as the mind opens up to what's true. And it comes from inner reflection. That's not of analyzing content, analyzing experience, it comes from an inner reflection of listening to our own wisdom and our own heart.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that's beautifully said. I, it is a case of her, in this example, seeing our own psychological innocence. And seeing that she was always doing her best and at all time, she's fundamentally okay. It's a beautiful example. You're always so articulate, it feels like you really brought that message home. For me, I feel like I was like the guy that went out to baseball field to bat. And I was throwing a fastball and maybe like, I had a little bunt to first base, you come up and knocked it out the park and we all get to win at the end of the day. So thank you for that.

Rohini Ross:

Thank you. Well, now I'd have Christine articulate it probably even better than me.

Christine Heath:

The fact that we're looking at the differences of people instead of how we're the same. So then it seems like you have to do different things for different situations and different people. But if you just look at this is how people work, then you don't have to have all those rules. It makes life so much simpler. Yeah. But it's just remembering that everybody is innately healthy. And that's missing. In all of psychology, there's not another approach that a way of helping people that looks at people as innately healthy, and then draws that out of people. It's like an intellectual idea. Like Maslow would say that, you know, he is hierarchy if you really got to turn it upside down, because you got to get the insight first. And then the rest of it kind of happens from there. So it's like, there's people that have kind of picked up on it, but really, that the implementation of helping people is backwards. So getting people to see that they're already healthy, does two things, it provides hope to them. And it provides the ability for the helper to pull it out, have them write it to see it to point it out to have that be because that's what keeps you from being burned out. That's what gives you hope. Otherwise, you're talking about the same thing over and over. And once you've been a therapist for 40 years, you're pretty jaded and pretty miserable. But it's it's seeing that people no matter what they've been through, like the women that Judy was talking about, or that were or vets that come back and they're told you're broken, live with it. This is your gift to the country that you got broken because of this event. It's just not true. And that is a disservice to tell you and that Believe me, I used to do When I worked with women who were sexually abused as children, I said, I know that this will always be with you, it'll always, you know, affect you blah, blah, blah, but it can be later used is big now, and it can be a little and in the future, but I didn't really see that you could be free of it.

Judy Sedgeman:

Or free of suffering, even if you thought of it. That's the key. Yeah. You know, I was doing a group one time with veterans in goodwill. So out of curiosity, there were about 30 people in the group, I asked for show hands, and I said, How many people have had years of psychological or psychiatric treatment, diagnosis and treatment in every hand went up? So I said, Okay, now how many people have had more than 10 diagnoses? And I would say, half the hands went up. And I said, more than five diagnoses. And I would say, another half of that remaining half went up. There was nobody in that room that had not had at least three diagnoses over the course of their therapy. And I said, Now, when you think back on those diagnoses, what do they tell you? What do they have any relationship to each other? And they said, most of the guys say, Well, I tell us, we're really sick, we're really bad off, we got a lot wrong with us. You know, that was what they thought, well, the more diagnoses have, the more hopeless it is, because the more you got wrong with you. And I said, What if a diagnosis was an observation about the way you were using your thinking against yourself at one point in your life when you were insecure? All it is, is a list of the many creative ways that people come up with to use their thinking against themselves accidentally, when they get really insecure. And they were sitting there going, like, Is that possible? That is just words, that there's nothing really wrong with me. And I was like, you know, well, where would it be? It's not like you got award or something? Where would it be? It's in, it's in your thinking. And, you know, we started talking about it. And one of the guys said, that was so revealing to me when I really stepped back. And I thought about what you said, and then I gave him a little reading assignment and Sidney banks and everything. And so when I really reflected on that, I thought, it's possible that those diagnoses don't mean anything. They're just descriptive. They're not telling me that there's something seriously wrong with me. And he said, I got so excited that I might be okay. You know, this guy's in his 40s. And he's been suffering since God knows when I think it was the Gulf War. And, and he just, you know, it just now, I, I didn't tell him there was nothing wrong with him. And I think that's the other thing is, we don't want to get prescriptive, either. We can't tell people you should think this way, not that way. You know, I try to raise it in terms of questions that for reflection and see what they come up with. Because if he had said, No, it's deeper than that is more important than I would have just tried to think of some more questions. But, you know, honestly, people, people, as soon as they get quiet enough to reflect, they can see that they can see the sort of backwardness of it, they can, it just flips things around in their mind. And they're like, you know, if I can make if I, my mind is so powerful that I can make up that I should be miserable every day because of what happened to me. I can make up anything. Why don't I make up something else. And it's as as simple as that sound, it's really kind of how it works. I think.

Rohini Ross:

The power is in the simplicity. And as I'm listening to you both. What I hear you pointing to is that it's through getting reflective and hearing our own wisdom, that gives us the perspective that we need to not suffer from the difficult events in our life. And that it's not through digging into the emotions, digging into the memories, no looking, looking and analyzing more there is actually by getting reflective and seeing what else there is to be revealed about our innate health and our well being and our peace that lives within us, even though those things have happened. And that that's what gives us the perspective that people are thinking by revisiting it over and over again, they're thinking that's what's going to get them there. But actually, it's in the complete opposite direction looking, looking to that the health that you're pointing to that that perspective comes in, and that's where the freedom is. Rohini What you said was, was really, I think the essence of what makes what we do. so different from the traditional way of looking at things, it's like we're looking for people to awaken, to help or awaken to how their experiences created, awaken to their innate health, and that you can't think your way there. And so psychology gets us thinking about why we are the way we are. But that will not give you an insight and insight comes, when you're not thinking about it, it comes from within you to you. And so when people start to look for insight, instead of annaleigh, analyzing themselves, they they see something fresh and new, and they get a shift in their in consciousness. Because really, we we kind of get into a level of consciousness, the abuse usually is part of a level of consciousness and to have people see that that's what that was, was a level of consciousness, and they don't have to live in that level of consciousness anymore. That's it, that's really what makes what we do so different.

Judy Sedgeman:

And also makes it joyful for us. Because we don't, we don't lose heart. You know, and I think that that's one of the things that I was telling a friend of mine the other day was saying, why don't you just retire, you know, you're 77 years old, and you could hang it up, and I'm, and I said, you know, the reason I don't retire is because I just love what I do. You know, and I can't really see, you know, crocheting as being a substitute. You know, honestly, I it's not like, I don't want to have hobbies or anything, but I don't really I just, I just, I feel so lucky to have stumbled into this and to, and to have something that I am absolutely 100% all the time confident. Is, is to talk about that's always there for people and they can see it for themselves. And it's not even work. You know, it's like, it's just like, it's just like, you know, being really good at always having homemade cookies around that people just woke up this evening. I can say have a cookie. And they go, Oh, I love cookies. I see that. Tell me the recipe.

Rohini Ross:

It's a great metaphor. Yeah. How about you, Chris? What is it that has you continue to do this work?

Christine Heath:

Well, I can't imagine what else I do. That'd be more fun. That'd be for sure. I mean, you know, to me that my work is like a calling. I don't get to retire from it. I can't anyway, I mean, I just walk down the street and start talking to somebody and then what do you do? I'm like, Oh, here we go. And it's such an honor, I think, to be able to help people to wake up to themselves and to see their lives transform. It doesn't get better than that.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, we would agree.

Angus Ross:

Yeah. I love the way we're looking at it. That way that they're waking up to themselves, you know, maybe I've, I've said in the past, remembering who you actually are. But I love the idea of waking up. Yeah. So easy to sort of fall asleep. In the movie theater. I generally fall asleep in movies anyway.

Judy Sedgeman:

But that's the whole denouement.

Christine Heath:

And when you wake up, it's never ending, you know, like, we've I've been doing this now since 19 8019, December of 1980. And I'm like, I think this last year, I've awakened again, to a deeper level of consciousness, you know, like, Wow, this is so cool. I feel like I'm just starting out and learning and changing. And, you know, there's not many professions that you can kind of be up in your profession and continue to learn and be jazzed about what you do after many years. I mean, I've been a therapist since 1976. And so it's, there's, I mean, you can't you I venture to say you can't find many people who've been a therapist daily, that long, and are as jazzed about what they do. So

Angus Ross:

that's amazing. When Christine made that remark about waking up to your innate health, it made me think about my role as a as a coach, as an educator. Can I can I call myself an educator, I like that. But it makes me think about that education. And I know that the root or I know that education comes from the I think it's The Latin word edgy khari, which means to draw out. So our role is to really draw out or help people or facilitate the drawing out of people's innate mental health and well being. It's kind of like a spiritual alchemy. We are spiritual alchemists in that sense, and I think that I don't know, that was the train of thought that I went off on, she was talking about that.

Rohini Ross:

Well, it is a really hopeful way to see human beings that we have peace, love, understanding wisdom, while being inside of us, that we're not putting anything into our clients, we are seeing what they might have trouble seeing for themselves and helping them to wake up to what's already there.

Judy Sedgeman:

Having finished a book at long last at this late age, in my life, I'm sort of the grandma Moses and book writing and the three peat. I, so I started another one. And it's, I think the title is going to be farewell to crazy town. And the reason that I'm using that is because I had a client who, early on who came in and I started talking to her about, you know, our innate health and helping her to calm down and quiet down. And after about two sessions, she came back and she said, so because she'd been in therapy for a long time, she said, so what you're telling me is that I can truly say farewell to crazytown. You know, and I said, Yeah. And she said, Wow, that would be something. And so I'm kind of starting it with it.

Rohini Ross:

Exciting.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, that's brilliant.

Rohini Ross:

I love that title. It's true. We all have that. We all have our crazy town, and we can all say farewell to it. That's the good news. That's true.

Judy Sedgeman:

No matter who lives there, or what your town is, like, if it's crazy town, you don't want to go back.

Christine Heath:

Then if you do go back just to visit your mother or something, you can. It doesn't feel so good anymore. It doesn't feel like

Rohini Ross:

It's a long weekend.

Judy Sedgeman:

Why a house?

Christine Heath:

You know, when you're in college, you think like you get home sick and you think if I just go home, I'll feel better. And then you go home and it's like, oh my god. It kind of isn't. It's, I call it seduction, this adapter. I think it's like, come on, think about this. You want to think about this. Like you'll feel better, but you get upset about this. And then you get sucked into it. And then it's like, oh my god, what am I doing? Because you can then again, you wake up to it because you're you're back in it. It doesn't feel so good anymore.

Angus Ross:

Well, I have my own new version of talking about crazy town. It's not a new version. I've repurposed an old version. And I like this old English. I think it's an old English saying maybe it's not old English. Maybe it's America or the American. I don't know. bats in the belfry.

Rohini Ross:

What does that mean,

Angus Ross:

Bats in the belfry? And actually you you know the derivation of that is when someone would say well, they're lit they're a little bit batty. Kind of like a little bit crazy. It comes from the idea of when the bell tolls in the bell tower, which is called the belfry the bats fly around because the bells tolling so as whatever, whatever causes my belt doll, my bats fly around my Belfry. That's my version of crazy town at the moment bats in the belfry.

Rohini Ross:

Okay. Well, I don't understand what the bats have to do with being crazy.

Angus Ross:

Bats don't have any. It's I guess maybe because the belfry is probably the highest point in a church or Cathedral. That the highest point in our human being is our head. Head could be the equivalent of the belfry. So it's bats flying around my head or my brain. Internally all these I'm having all of these crazy thoughts like all of these crazy bats flying around the belfry jet with the program.

Rohini Ross:

But now you're talking about Belfry the the image that's coming to mind is the Hunchback of Notre Dame

Angus Ross:

okay that's what I that's how I appear to you.

Rohini Ross:

Well, thank you both for sharing all of this with us. Is there any other questions that you have Angus?

Angus Ross:

Yes, I have a million questions, but we wouldn't be able to fit it all in a day, let alone the hour that we have. I think you guys are amazing. And I just love what you do. And I would encourage everybody to go and listen to your podcasts. Yeah, what a gift psychology,

Rohini Ross:

Psychologies, got it backwards and will include all of your other bio information in the episode description.

Judy Sedgeman:

Thank you so much. Well, you are doing such wonderful things for people. And I thank you both for your many, many contributions to the evolution of this understanding and the outreach and to the joy and love that you bring to your work. I really appreciate it.

Rohini Ross:

Now, thank you very much. And now we're going to have to do a get you to come on our podcast, so we'll get it back from you. All right, that sounds great. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross:

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross:

If you would like to learn more about our work and our online rewilding community, please visit our website, therewilders.org

Angus Ross:

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.