Awaken to Love

EP23: Derrick Mason: Finding Freedom in Prison

• Season 1 • Episode 23

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We were deeply touched by our conversation with Derrick Mason. Derrick shares with us his journey from learning the understanding shared by Sydney Banks while in prison, to his role as Director of Beyond Recovery today. 

Derrick's initial insight involved seeing the psychological innocence of his mother, and the impact of believing the misunderstanding that everything in his life was her fault. During the Beyond Recovery program, he attended in prison, at first just like so many of us he was taking in the understanding from a purely intellectual place. But eventually, after several weeks of still showing up, the understanding moved from his head to his heart. He now always follows that feeling as a guidepost. 

Derrick teaches us about the power of showing up as ourselves, and how that's all we ever need. He can notice his insecure thinking and then remember that the opportunities he's been offered have come as a result of being himself and removing the mask he once thought was necessary to be successful.

Derrick's story is such a powerful testament to the fact that our experience of life is always being created from the inside out. He shares that while he was in the worst physical place imaginable, prison, he was feeling better than he ever has before. And if he can feel that way in prison, and trapped while on the beach with money in his pocket, then he could trust in the truth of this paradigm-shifting understanding.  

This episode explores:

  • The feeling comes from within
  • Lean into uncomfortability knowing comfortability is your true nature
  • Forgiving yourself leads to seeing others' psychological innocence
  • Always show up as you -- it's healing for everyone around you
  • Vulnerability is our strength
  • Freedom is available to us anywhere

This narrative is not intended to detract from the need for comprehensive reform to the justice system in the United States and beyond.

Show Notes
Buffering skills: Angus may need to insert some buffers between his appointments in his calendar.
The tango of death: the anger game - it takes two to get into entanglement
XL comfort blanket: the feeling of being embraced by our true nature

Derrick Mason learned about this understanding while in prison in 2017. He was impacted by the truth and simplicity in Sydney Bank’s books, as well as the love and trust of Jacqueline Hollows and the Beyond Recovery team. Derrick was then able to see the true potential within himself, which had only ever been limited by his own thinking. Derrick is a director for Beyond Recovery and serves on the Board of the Three Principles Global Community. Learn more here: https://beyond-recovery.co.uk/.

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.

Episode 23 features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based composer Greg Ellis.

Angus Ross:

Welcome to Rewilding Love this season is with a couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini Ross:

This is episode number 23. An interview with Derrick Mason.

Derrick Mason:

And when I saw that instantaneous is what I even didn' t have to sell drugs anymore

Rohini Ross:

you're in prison, but yet you're feeling free and liberated

Derrick Mason:

My vulnerabilities . Come on, lay them all out, then they become a strength

Rohini Ross:

that allowed you to forgive yourself to let go of judgments towards yourself

Derrick Mason:

be brought to the end of the visit. She was on a god, waiting for me to Springer Trump on her

Angus Ross:

The tango of death was avoided.

Derrick Mason:

I can basically be anybody I want to be.

Angus Ross:

Yes, it's a sort of empathy snowball effect.

Derrick Mason:

For the first time in my life. I said, No, I'm in prison. I'm in the worst place I could be possibly I think, but I still can manage to feel better than I've ever felt in my life.

Rohini Ross:

The feeling of that surrender and letting go is so beautiful.

Derrick Mason:

That allows me to forgive other people and see the innocence in other people,

Rohini Ross:

when you have that connection with that love. And that well being and that peace of mind is like the relationship flourishes.

Derrick Mason:

And if I show what was love, then hopefully be the change you want to be means that when people will show up as love.

Angus Ross:

You lead with love. I think there's just something so beautiful and so genuine about you.

Rohini Ross:

Who knows what the ripple effects are going to be from what you're sharing here.

Angus Ross:

You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus Ross,

Rohini Ross:

and me Rohini Ross

Angus Ross:

Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross:

We believe that love never disappears completely in relationships. It can always be rewelded.

Angus Ross:

Listen in, as we speak with our guests about how they share the understanding behind the rewilding metaphor and their work,

Rohini Ross:

and how it has helped them in their relationships,

Angus Ross:

relax and enjoy the show. Well, this was a great interview. I really enjoyed it. And I know that you did, too. I think Derek did as well. There were one or two instances where maybe my level of professionalism might be brought into question. I think that the rule of thumb in future is that I should be more than ready to go, come come time for you to press record. And in this case, I had done a couple of back to back sessions. So Derek got to witness me having to set up all the paraphernalia, these are the mics, etc. to a soundcheck and various other things, and it was a bit of a shambles, to say the least.

Rohini Ross:

Well, I do want noted for the record that I did, put the appointment on your calendar for the podcast interview. And when I put it there, there was nothing else there.

Angus Ross:

I don't know. Is that true? Yes, I definitely had two back to back appointments. I think that the last appointment, it was just one of those situations, I just couldn't, I couldn't end it abruptly, because it would have been very insensitive to the content of the conversation. So I was trying and trying to do my best to one the wind things I should have given them a lot of forewarning as to the appropriate time to stop, but I didn't

Rohini Ross:

Well live and learn and but I did want for the record that your morning was open when I booked it.

Angus Ross:

Well, you must have booked it long ago, then.

Rohini Ross:

Well, that would mean that you booked your sessions around it back to back.

Angus Ross:

I guess, I guess also, which will probably become apparent when you listen to this podcast, that I wasn't even perhaps aware that I was recording a podcast interview. Such was my my rushed disposition.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah, it was a probably that was a little disorienting for our guests.

Angus Ross:

Certainly disorienting for me not to know what the hell I was doing.

Rohini Ross:

I guess the good news is you have a busy schedule.

Angus Ross:

I guess I am thankful and grateful for that. Yeah.

Rohini Ross:

You can learn some buffering skills in terms of putting buffers in your schedule.

Angus Ross:

Yes, buffering skills, definitely

Rohini Ross:

know what to call it. I leave gaps between my appointments

Angus Ross:

Because buffering I think in terms of computer technology, and that's that little spinning ball. That definitely my mind has a tendency to get into this state of mind where I feel like I'm buffering. I'm waiting for everything to come back online and behave in an appropriate fashion. So anyway, this shouldn't be about me and my shortcomings. The purpose of this interview is really just to celebrate An extraordinary man who has had some incredible life experiences, and has got some really insightful things to say. I just thought he was amazing. And I was really inspired to listen to what he had to share.

Rohini Ross:

I was as well enjoy the interview with Derrick Mason. Thank you so much for joining Angus myself on this podcast. And I'm laughing because we didn't get this part as part of the recording, but it's been like a comedy of errors with Angus trying to get his microphone. It's almost like a slapstick Three Stooges, but there was only one stooge.

Angus Ross:

I'm glad to provide the comic relief. I'm quite out of breath at this point. You guys need to do the heavy lifting as far as a conversation is concerned for at least the first five minutes where I managed to get some oxygen.

Rohini Ross:

Let you get your composure. Angus, don't worry. So Derek, we're so grateful to have you join us. And as you know, the initial part of this podcast was actually a recording of a couple's intensive that Angus and I did. And it just shares the journey of that couple navigating their way. And as we say, we don't sort of say how it all unfolds, because we don't know how far along people are in listening to that journey. But as that has come to completion, we wanted to have other people who share and work from the same understanding that we do on as guests to be able to see the variety of ways that this understanding is impactful in lives. And I heard you speak on other people's podcasts and was really impacted by what you shared. And so we're just grateful to have you here with us to learn along with you.

Derrick Mason:

Thank you, Rohini. so honored to be here to be invited here. Yeah, pleasure to be here.

Rohini Ross:

So Derek, you're currently a director at beyond recovery. You're also on the board of directors for the three principles global community. And you came across this understanding in around 2017. But it is quite the journey, as you've shared. And so I would love for to hear you share, you know, in your own words, how you came across the understanding and how it impacted you.

Derrick Mason:

Yeah, I love to share that . So before I got this understanding. I wasn't that sort of person that would be openly talking and I was withdrawn. And but now I just get to love to share my story, every opportunity. So yeah, I've got the understanding, like you said in 2017. I was serving a five year prison sentence at the time, I was about a year into it. And I just moved to a new prison only prison. And that's where beyond recovery. We're running programs and they run free principles based programs. And funding in life. It was it was an inmate who got me into it because he saw me as a big fella called Dave, he saw me and he started telling me about three principles and that changed your life. And I was and he was so enthusiastic and awful. Okay. Yeah. Because you should do the coolest not just just to appease him. I just said yeah, okay, I'll do it. Tough Enough. I'll never see him again. This is so funny. The next day I was in a shower. They got like four people showers. So I'm in the shower shower when I look over and insane is Dave in the end key because yeah, yeah, you got to do that cool. He's talking What's going on? I'm gonna do I'm gonna do it. By the way, he was so enthusiastic. He started to tell me because I couldn't just leave the shower straight away. So he had me You have my ear for about at least 1520 minutes. So I was a shower when he was telling me how much he changed his life what he used to do and what he doesn't do now when this guy was a think Dave's about just shorts are seven foot six foot six and a half or something like that. He said to me, he cries when he watches X Factor. He cries everything and T and he was just so open with it. And some from his own. Maybe there is something in it. Other than just say yeah, yeah, whatever made. Yeah, yeah. So then I when I applied to go on the calls, or he got me on the calls when I went on the calls for it. Also, he also told me that it will give me my decaf, which would let me go to an open prison, which will let me serve my sentence a little bit easier. So I'm trying to work the system. So that's what I'm really going there for but let me just have a look cuz I'm curious. didn't think there was nothing wrong with my life didn't think of what I was in good shape. I just had an occupational hazard if you can say that. What found myself in prison. So I went on the course. And I remember this is key at the beginning of the course they said what is Jacqueline said to me what is what do you want out of life in this course that you want to change? If you could have anything and everybody had all these different ideas, I want to different relationship with money. I want to have a different relationship with my girlfriend, I want to have a different and everything. She's like everything everybody said she said they can achieve. But I remember in my head thinking when she said about the relationships, I just said, No, that was ring fencing that can't solve my relationship. Because I know how I felt about my relationship at that time. And I just thought, yeah, it can, it can change the world, but it can't change my relationship. I'll accept that. So anyway, um, yeah, and I'm an intellect. I like to intellectualize things over two groups. It was a 10 week course. And I like to intellectualize things and put them in a box and put a label on it. And I weren't getting anything, or people were coming back after two or three weeks, and oh, my God, this thing's amazing. Like, Oh, my God. And I was like, What have I missed? I must have missed something. And I said to me, no, you're intellectualizing you. Just let the information we're telling you just wash over you and just how it sits with you. Some people get in different ways. And only when you hear something that's key to you, will you get something and another thing, the guy who told me that his daughter was killed in a car accident, like three years earlier. And he said he had so much hatred for the guy who killed the guy who's done it. Since getting this understanding, you're totally forgiven the guy. And he had pure love for the guy. And he was compassionate about how he felt about killing his dog. And from him told me that I just said, you know, I'm gonna take his advice, because he's got a powerful story. So anyway, we had a normal group, I went back to myself, I was lying on my bed. And I was watching some insignificant TV show, I can't remember what it was, but something on the show just keyed into something that was said in group. And it made me say, Well, my mum isn't to blame for everything. My mum isn't the reason why I've done this order of reason why, why I've always fooled and I sat up. And I realized that that was all made up by me. That had been the backbone of my life, that was the foundation of my life. So if that was a lie, then how am I still standing? How am I still alive? I must, who am I then. And that was the first insight into, like, wow, I could be anything I want to be, I don't think I basically said because of my mom, and how she treated me the path that I'd gone on and sell drugs. And it was because of her and, and when I saw the instantaneous, it's all I don't even have to sell drugs anymore. That was a reason that, yeah, that's why I do it. But if that's not true, then I don't have to do that, then. And I didn't have an option as to what to do. Otherwise, I didn't know what I was gonna do. I didn't even know I was gonna stop selling drugs. I just knew I didn't have to do that anymore. And I think that was the power. That was the power that set me on a path to just follow that feeling. because ever since then, I've just been following that feeling.

Rohini Ross:

That's really powerful. And that was after just a couple of workshops.

Derrick Mason:

That was after week, seven, right after

Rohini Ross:

participating in the series. And I really appreciate what you said about how you noticed you were intellectualizing and nothing was landing for you. So could you say a little bit more about what was different when you weren't intellectualizing? Because I think a lot of people intellectualize and they're probably even listening to this podcast looking like, What? What happened? Like, I don't understand. There's a part missing. So yeah, anything more you could say about that.

Derrick Mason:

Um, where I could simplify it to me is that we're being grouped and somebody would say something or their opinion. And whatever they're saying, it I am I relate into it or not relate into if I can relate to it, that's one category. So it's gone in the category I can relate to, then whatever I know about it, now it gets put on top of it mixed up. And then now It means what I've experienced along with what they've just said. And then that's where I'm going to find out what, what is they're talking about, or how that's going to impact me. But and then it can go the other way. I haven't experienced it. So what do I know about it? Oh, my sister had or something like that happened to her all sudden, what I know. And then I'm, it's not what they said now is what my I've experienced upon it, and it's in a label. And by the time they finished this Ivor, they just want sympathy, or are they just saying that because they just want to read the data, there's going to be a reaction that's come out of when you put a word in a computer? The answer comes out as to what you mean, what your reaction is going to be button to simplify it to say not to put a label on it just to hear whatever everyone's saying to me, we've no history on it. No labels, no, nothing. Just what does that mean? Like I'm a bit what does that mean? I don't know what that means. And then, for me would sit in my head. And then if it would spring into my head, like, oh, what does that mean? And then I'll play with it with nothing on it. And then sometimes it just like I said, but the insight I got with my mom. I couldn't even remember what it was that was actually said. I just know that I set up and I just say Wow, so They say it's not my mom's fault. And that's what that's the key part I remember, but just for not put, because if I would have done, done, usually put it in a box, it would have had a label on it, and it wouldn't have been able to look like, what cuz that was a new form that I had said, and that's brand new. If I've had a label on it, it's not new. It's something that I know. And that can't change sort of thing. I hope, I hope that's what makes sense as to, yeah, I was always here.

Angus Ross:

It made sense to me, because it's kind of like suggesting that when you had that thought about your mom, that you had the space to have an insight. And so prior to that, it was all about looking in the harddrive trying to sort of figure out well, yeah, where is the answer? It must be in there somewhere. And then obviously, you know, you realize that by continuously continuing to look in that direction, the answer isn't there. And when you like, let that go and allow yourself to be present, because that's exactly what it sounds like to me. Then you settle down, you have this insight. Oh, wow. It's not my mom's fault that comes through as a feeling as a point of truth. And that and that and if I if you don't mind me asking, I'm curious about what was the insight around you know, your mother? I know I'm sure we kind of all be maybe have a sense of what what what you experienced, but it would be nice to know your your point of view and what what was it that what was that insight showing you about your mother at that point.

Derrick Mason:

So my mom was a single parent. She had, she had me when she was 19. Or she had my older sister when she was 17. I was born in 71. My oldest was born in 1970. So she was a strict disciplinarian. So basically, how I saw how I fought her love was, it wasn't, I wanted it look a certain way. And she, she presented are loving what she could do her best in the moment in the time. But I'd say I've misinterpreted that as she didn't love me. And she'd never schooled me on how to be in social circles and even got Ivan ball forward yesterday, it got to a point where I just because my mom was my mom, my single parent, that was all my love went to my mom and juyo being busy and being disciplinary, Naomi. And I sort of switched the love of inside me. Because I said, I can't get hurt no more by my mom. So I switched off. And by switching off, that allowed me to do everything that our shouldn't have been doing. It was like an excuse. But when I realized that it wasn't true, my mom was only trying to very best. And she loved me as much as the data I was born. When I've got children as in a day, I looked into my children's eyes. She loved me like that every single day. But it's just how she showed up. I was looking at that and taking that as I have to do this. And I have to do that when I realized that wasn't true. Basically everything I've ever done most of the things I've ever done. I said yes. Because my mom and because my mama because my mom know, upfront, the suffering the upfront deep down in my deep down in somewhere deep somewhere, somewhere, because I would never tell anybody before the army in prison because my mom, you don't say anything. So you don't think by come to me on that level this.

Angus Ross:

I hope that makes sense. No, it makes perfect sense. So in a sense, it sounds like what you're saying is you just really saw that you saw your mom's psychological innocence and just see that she was just doing her best to doing the very best that she could. And wow, it's beautiful.

Rohini Ross:

And in the seeing of that when I hear is it freed you up? So yeah, could you say more about what happened once you saw that? Because it sounds like it was pretty profound.

Derrick Mason:

It was it was it was because I'm sadly I'm not even sadly unfortunately left. My mom passed away two weeks before I was sentenced to this prison sentence. So I buried a bear there two weeks before I went I was locked up. So when I had that insight for our can't investigate that that pastor can't. But I said oh no, I know someone else I got a lot of thinking about. I'll bring in my partner for 99 of 18 years. Nobody saw her. I've definitely no it doesn't that watch. That's different. What Okay, okay, I'm going to prove this theory wrong. So then I started to investigate that and lean into that. And it was uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable. When I first looked in, I said, No, I don't like that person. But it's the same thing what you said anger is not when I had that insight, that feeling that I got, I just know that if I leaned into the uncomfortability a little bit more, I would see that feeling was still present. And then if I had to do some experiments, but I had a visit once where she came to see me and she would bring in my son the car had broken down so she was born in someone else's car and she's got a history of being late when she's coming on a visit and being on a visit sitting by yourself with all the families running around. It's not nice and you feel a bit I used to get up in my head and start sweating and thinking everyone's talking and looking looking at me You ain't got no friends. So I'm sitting on a visit sitting there sweating, sweating thinking up in my head. And I just said to myself, although I was about eight, nine weeks, I was coming up to the end of the bourbon cover calls. And I was like, What did he say? Was my head work? Think? Right? Okay, be present, you know, just be present. Just be present. Just calm down. Just be present. nobody's talking about you just be present. And I said to us, and as I've just done that, and then the fork come in my head, like, Oh, do you know what? The car's broken down to that to borrow somebody else's car? As obviously going to take time? And you know, what is over 100 miles, you have the drive to see me. Yeah, that's gonna take time. And she's bringing my son, I know, he's just born and he's going to be difficult to get, she really does want to come and see me. Wow, she's going to come and see me and I'm going to give her a hard time. Now just relax. And as a father, I just relaxed on the visit. And we're just looking at all the visitors faces not in at them that and at the officer came over and said, if you're going to belong, and I said, Arjun, I don't know. The officer was on my wing. And she goes on, give me a number on our phone, just to see how long she's gonna be. Said officer phoned me. She said, yes, you can get back 1520 minutes. I said, All right. No problem to her. That's 45 minutes. But yeah, all right. That's sweet. I just relaxed even more just relaxed even more than when she came on the visit. This is a this was a big insight for me when she came on the visit. She had like a defense mode on. But because I'm so easy, free. Because she's late. She's expected me to react. She's got a defense. When I'm like, No, you're she's not. Hello, you Sheila. Yeah, I'm right. What's wrong with you? She that take us on? I don't know. Wow, I can see how if I was in my head. I've never seen that before. And we've been on visits, but she's been late. And I probably acted the idiot. She's turned out like that. But I haven't even seen that before. And I said, Well, when I was soft and happy, she never just braked and just become soft and happy. right to the end of the visit. She was on a god waiting for me to spring a trap on her. But that just showed me that, wow, it takes two to get involved in that game. But I've always been more than the willing participant to play my part. And I just said, you know, I'm not playing that game anymore. I'm not playing that game anymore. And it's funny enough, I could say to her now. Do you remember that visit you came on? And what did I say to you? And she said, You said this weird thing to me. Like, don't worry, everything's in video, everything's gonna be okay. And she moved their hand like what now? You've definitely got on track for me? Well, yeah, that was a key moment for me to know that everything of my relationship with my partner had been made up as well, everything, everything.

Rohini Ross:

I really appreciate the example that they're sharing here, there's two things that stand out to me. One is after having that insight related to his mother and how she wasn't to blame for how his life is. And that that was a misunderstanding that he'd been holding on to within himself, that after that, he was able to have greater level of empathy and compassion for his partner who was visiting him that day. And that he was able to put himself in her shoes and see things from her perspective. And that when he did that, that completely shifted how he related to her when she came in.

Angus Ross:

Yes, it's a sort of empathy snowball effect that just keeps on building and I feel like we've, we've witnessed this, I'm sure within our own relationship and the clients that we work with, that this understanding offers a new lens through which to see the world and the relationship. And empathy and compassion, usually follow up pretty quickly.

Rohini Ross:

And he also said that he saw how it takes to to get into that dance of anger. And that even though he was in a warm place, and she wasn't she was still defended. He didn't need to engage in it, and that when he didn't engage in it, it didn't go to the same place.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, very much. So the tango of death was avoided. If there is a tango of death, I don't know.

Rohini Ross:

I mean, I think that's an important point for couples to be aware of that it does take two to get into that

Angus Ross:

And Tangoment. entanglement.

Rohini Ross:

Rather than focusing on the word Tango, do you agree?

Angus Ross:

Tango. It's got a nice ring to it. Tango, tango tango tango. I'd like to call one of my pets Tango.

Rohini Ross:

That is quite a good name. Especially if it was maybe an orange cat.

Angus Ross:

Oh, yeah, well, anyway, yeah, yeah, you got jumped on that bandwagon pretty quickly then. Anyway, to answer your question, it does take two to tango. I love that story. I just have such a brilliant visual of her arrival. And I just tell the defences up ready to do battle. And it's like, wow, this, he's No, he's not ready to do something sinister about this.

Rohini Ross:

That's even more nerve wracking.

Angus Ross:

How do I defend myself? That's right.

Rohini Ross:

And so how did things unfold? From there, Derrick? So those are, you know, really big insights and shifts, how did it continue to unfold for you?

Derrick Mason:

Well, because this is the relationship I was in there. So it couldn't really advance. It did evolve in a way over the phone. And because a few things we've done over the phone word insights, but I've started to notice just because I used to, I'm not used to, I probably still do, I suffer, I get anxious, I don't say suffer from it. But I get anxious, I'm sort of person that. And this is something else that I used to tether back to my mum, because of the discipline side of it. And I used to be just anxious in social circles. And I used to blame her for that. And so I'm in prison. Now, you know, that is not the kind of disorder to have. So that my little provide or my little, my little mask on. But then I always thought that there was something that I had to do, like I had to initial lack of, I've done something confident, and everyone was the center of attention, and everyone liked me. And then that will take away the anxiety or there was always something to do. But this sort of understanding point in between has nothing to do that is fought as well. So I used to go out on the wing on the landing and just stand out in the middle of my nightmare to stand by myself. And think now look at this guy, he ain't got no friends. And I used to think that all the time. So then when I got this understanding, I would stand out there and I'll lean into that uncomfortability. And I'll say no one is talking about you and I look around and the Hornet really talking about me, no one's laughing let me know when people will come up to me and are talking. And I'm like, wow, okay. And the more I just settled myself to know that so much more of the things what I believe to be true before, not just about my relationships, even their to do my relationship with the people around me, my next door neighbors and the work that I had in there the jobs I used to be, think I was just insignificant and get a job and just, but then I started to get noticed. And I started to get promotion. And I started to become number one in the workshops, and I was about what's going on. And when before we'd be in a group and I'll not be talking, I find myself talking and just not yet sort of a big thing just dropped off me to say, Who is this person? I can, I can basically be anybody I want to be. And whereas before my main philosophy would have been Yeah, this is great. But it's no good to me. Now. As soon as I walk out the gate, that's when I'll give this a try. Because this looks like it's good. Now for the first time in my life, I said no, I'm in prison. I'm going to end the worst place I could be possibly I think, but I still can manage to feel better than I've ever felt in my life. And I felt a freedom when that moment when I felt at that moment that like a liberation from all my thinking and all that judgment or no or everything. Just for a moment I felt that freedom and I just know I could possibly feel as free as I felt in my life whilst in prison. And yeah, that was that was beautiful Dhaka said Angus is all being that feeling. And it's all the same feeling but it's all just connected is the best way of describing

Rohini Ross:

and what a powerful example to show that that feeling is inside because you're having that when you don't have outer freedom you're in prison but yet you're feeling free and liberated and that's such a clear indicator that that has to be coming from within.

Derrick Mason:

And for me personally I've been to quite a few places over to all over the world and being on beaches and being in cloud with money in my pocket and not feel good at all just not felt not felt good and and to have a glimpse of that feeling of being where I am just turned everything on its head and just told me you know if I can see it I was on that page and felt like that and I'm here never feel like this. Then everything I'm looking at is made or what's it says about you create your reality that is exactly what's going on. And that yet and I've just grown into that and seeing that more and more.

Angus Ross:

Well, I love that term you use leaning into the the uncomfortability because I feel like I think about my My life and the way that I have been sort of reluctant to sort of step into the unknown where it feels uncomfortable. And so I would withdraw, probably I would withdraw into what I know or stay with what I know because that's something that's familiar with me. But and so I was reluctant to step into the unknown on that basis, particularly on a social level, about that idea of sort of leaning into the uncomfortable for me is about having a sense and a trust that I have this this divine spiritual nature, that's, that's really there to aim about the whole process, every time, I'm faced with something that feels unknown and uncomfortable. And just having that trust is like, that's, for me, that's where that beautiful feeling is, I'm assuming that's what you're pointing to. But that's what I feel like. Now. That's what I want to become familiar with, to expand into that, because when I stay with what is known Ben, basically, typically, I'm just suffering, I'm just suffering with an old stale, stagnant thought that has held me back. And always there's that invitation to, to sort of try on something new for size, have a new experience, and trust that we have this GPS that will, you know, will will guide us in a sense,

Derrick Mason:

that's beautiful anchors that you know, that you to blueprint, sometimes you put the words you just said that over exactly what I felt as beautiful, because you know, is this when I had the first insight with my mom, like I said, I'm supposed to crumble on the floor. And I'm not meant to be anybody but I was alright. So then I could challenge certain things, and know that I'm going to be alright, if I can challenge it and come up with the same feeling I came up when I got a glimpse after I've had that insight about my mom that are not going to be right and that just makes me more comfortable to lean into the uncomfortable because I know there's going to be there might be that reward at the end. And certain things that I've uncovered like I said, I've uncovered certain things just leaned into myself and things that I that don't feel proud of. So if I don't feel good about or don't feel good about the way I was thinking or what actions I took off or the way with those things that have me like again walk in the street I've made scratching my nails thinking I'm a bad person but if that doesn't come with that comfortability feeling that the innocence you just see the innocence in it, then you can accept it and move on and just notice all right, and it all comes from that feeling of that comfortability feeling that comfort blanket from you've got that, you know, you can basically tackle you can I can see anything in myself. No, I've got that comfort blanket to make me handle it and move forward from there. And you just said the way you said it, I just love the angles. Beautiful.

Angus Ross:

Thank, you know, the comfort balance. The comfort blanket for me just grows and grows with each new reference point I have where I get to try that on for size. I want an extra large comfort. That's what we all want.

Rohini Ross:

what I heard in what you just said, Derek is that not only did that insight or these insights help you to forgive your mom and other people in your life that it allowed you to forgive yourself to let go of judgments towards yourself.

Derrick Mason:

I think that's the big one, you know, because I can't I can't really forgive my mom because she was just being me. I can only figure that's what come that's the way I was looking at it before that I have to forgive my mom because to talk when she passed. That said we had a we had a not a fractious relationship, but we never have a relationships you always I used to go to her house and she'd be in a room and I'll stand at the door. I'll say Hello mom. She said hello. She looked at the TV I'll say nice weather. Yeah, okay. I'm just gonna get something from the kitchen and that was it. We didn't have like a rapport or so then. When she got when she got ill, she got your cancer and she was bed housebound, so I looked after him and the two months that I looked after her, she dropped she totally dropped all her thinking about what I'd done and who I was and I was just a son again. And she was just my mom again. But and it was just the most beautiful time that I spent with my mom and whatnot regrets or anything but I realized there was still that little thing in the corner of Yeah, but my mom You know, you're still done all that you know. Yeah, I love the moment you haven't got that thinking but yeah, you know, he's still done with us. Yeah, that's still there. So when I when I when I've got this insight now just to know that if there's nothing for me to forgive for my mom, is what how I saw and I innocently saw reloader as a child and saying things that Angus forts that you've had from when I was eight or nine have packaged dragged around with me and made them relevant. In this basically now we've just before now so to get rid of that and order, are just forgive myself for my coffee with myself, then that makes it easier that in turn makes it easier for me to give other people Because when I see somebody else do something I know that there can be come from they come from the same innocent place I was coming from when I've done something similar. So then that allows me to forgive other people and see the innocence in other people. And even that everyday that's unfolding and unpeeling for me in on levels that I never believe, could be possible as well.

Rohini Ross:

So inspiring. Can you fill us in in terms of you have these insights you participate in the beyond recovery program, you're really impacted by it? How do you go from there to now being a director and beyond recovery? What was that journey like? And then the three PGC Board of Directors

Derrick Mason:

Yeah. You know what, I never I never saw none of this coming. I never got the principles. I said, right. You know what, I'm gonna start sharing an actual fact I was pretty clunky. When I got these principles. I was like, the guy who got me into it. I will say to everybody at the red pill is my fault. Yeah, I never and they're looking at me like, okay, yeah, we're just going over to our she's coming, he's coming. It's the best thing in the world you can feel for you. And then I know so many years, I just want to know I'm giving up this game. I'm just going to use this to what I've seen. So then Okay, now I said, I'm definitely going to use this to not commit crime again, I don't need to do that no more is told me that the feeling has told me that don't worry about the boss in the future, the unknown as long as I just know that something will come and just be in the moment then I'll be alright. And those other options won't come on the table. And they never got a painting and decorating job done that for about a year. And then in November 2018 2019 now I've moved prison to a different prison where beyond recovery wasn't facilitating and I was in that prison for about eight months and then I'll was let out then I was released got a painting job didn't have no contact with beyond recovery. Got to a lowest point in my life like arguments with my children before Arjuna one day I just the feeling that I had from beyond recovery and just like yeah, I want some other MLF so I messaged I went on Facebook went on the website message emailed everybody and everybody that I have a connection with Bill macabre email them. And then the next about two days later, Jacqueline messaged me back saying, Oh, yeah, good to hear from you, Derek. There's a conference happening on Saturday. That was a free PGC UK conference. 2019. So then they said, Yeah, she said, Do you want to come because your calls came there. Somebody never turned up that was meant to speak for beyond recovery. She asked me to stand there. And I was like, What? Not? What I haven't seen you guys for like over a year. Now. What do you mean? She's like, no, don't worry, Derek. You're not ready. But you're always ready. And I was like, What? Yeah, okay. Yeah, I can because I had, in a time that I've been, I've been still see, I mean, insights on a lower level. So I'd still be in the principal still was in me, but I wasn't seeing anything that properly. I needed to be in a company to advance it. So I spoke at a conference and I felt brilliant when I spoke at the conference, and I just everything just came back to me. And I was just like, wow, that was brilliant. Audience It was about eight, nine people in Korea, but others who is still is a feeling was just brilliant. And then 2000. And then I started to disengagement beyond recovery, again, just turning up to this somebody meetings. Then in 2009, in November, they said they were doing a knife crime programming, not in a prison. And if I want you to come and do some free days, three days a month, I said, y'all jump on that I'll do that. done that in not in them had a major impact. My first time going back in prison on the other side, and audit all the residents when they saw me there was our Yoda talking to me and say, No, if you can do it, then I can do it. Why don't I come back in and then even spoke about our principles yet? They're still saying, well, you're what you can come and get us? And how do you do that as you do that, when we run the group, they like my story and whatever impacted them and we had the total turn around. And from that the feeling that I got from that group was told me you know what I need to be in and around this feeling. And this is the work I need to do. And then lo and behold, March 2020 Jacqueline offered me a job to be on recovery on a more permanent pot on a part time basis, but more frequent than three days a month. And I jumped at that opportunity. And since then, I've been out of my comfort zone doing emails and doing other things and paperwork and things but it's been a bit daunting in that thing, but yeah, just and just showing the other side that just showing up as me is always good enough. That's something that I learned and never thought was good enough for I was at four in a mosque and that's how we get results and but now I've realized that just showing up as me is more than enough and the more I believe in them, the more I show up as me The closer I stay to me and then Yeah, I was doing that with beyond recovery. We spoke at a conference, which was virtual in 2000. And last year 2020. And that was just after the George Floyd incident, and the Black Lives Matter. And that was another one of big insight for me. Because, um, yeah, previous to that I've always bought into this year, blacks were oppressed, and the only way to get out, the only way for us to sort we are is Yeah, we need to take to the streets, or we need to show them and we need to do this. And we need to do that. And yet it's all damaged areas, all of them sound familiar, and it is all terrorism, terrorism them. But when George Floyd happened, it kind of bubbled it. And everybody was feeling that I just learned that this is not what I thought all my life. And I just wasn't feeling it. It was just like, that doesn't sit right with me anymore. What the hell's wrong with me what's going on? And I just sit with it. And I just didn't say anything to anybody. And then one day, it's all just hit me do the same thing with my mom and whatever, it's not looking outwards, and what day what is what I am not even what we as black? What I What can I do? I can only just show up as me. And I feel that things are Be the change you want to be Be the change you want to see in others. That's all I can do. And yeah, with nothing else on it, no, hey, I try to put no heat under trying to put love. And if I show up as love, then hopefully be the change you want to be means other people will show up as love. And that's the only way I see to get through that. And from I saw that everything else didn't make sense to me. Nothing else made sense to me as sharp as myself with love. And that's and that was a major shift for me. And I was I was sort of working through that just before in and around the conference. And when I was actually when I was at the conference, that's when it happens. That's when the light bulb hit me. And I just smoke a lot. And yeah, and I think that's when Aaron said he was impacted. And yeah, the board noticed me and then they started to put out things for us. There's a place in the board. And I just thought, yeah, let me just apply for that and see what happens there. But then I realized only somewhere a chance and like whoa. And then all the all thinking kicks in about what would I have to do what after black to try and get in there, what led were to tell and it's the same thing, just hold on, you've got the budget showing up as you. So all I can do to just stay true to that is as sharp as me. And it sounds so simple. And so, but by the time you get in your head, you want to run away from you. Because just that old thinking kicks in whether you're not good enough, and Alright, you're good enough before but now you need to start to put this little thing on just to cover up and you'll build and you just have to keep on fighting and just say no, I am I good enough. I am good enough. And I cannot speak for myself. But that's just like a little bit I have to go through. Because even before this interview, like I said I was nervous. And then when the little technicals and outside laugh enough, where's that gone? But then that's interesting, because one laugh and a foot later. And it's like, wow, where did that feeling go? But yeah, it just shows up all the time for me like that was beautiful is beautiful.

Angus Ross:

You know, I love the fact that that there is so much commonality. And I think for so many people and having this experience with this understanding. And certainly if you want to go into it as a coach or teacher or trainer or whatever, that I came into it constantly comparing myself to others constantly feeling like I need to learn a script, I need to follow the company line. And even having those sorts of being told, you know, all you need to do is just be yourself show up. And the way that it was tabled in those days is like, just trust your grounding, come from your grounding, tell your story. And I never fully trusted that until I did and then I like oh, wow, I can be me, or new. That's all that's expected here. But just to show up and be me. And that was so liberating. And so it was so wonderful. Just to suddenly, like I just spotted, like I suddenly became comfortable in my own skin. Like I'm good enough showing up and being me that was huge. So I love the fact you kind of saw it on those terms, too. in your way. I think we all kind of have a bit of that going on. It's like yeah, we feel like we have to, we have to be something else. We have to you know, put on this mask like you say, because because it's that's what's socially acceptable or what's expected. And really all that's expected when you get down to brass tacks is that I just want to see who you are.

Derrick Mason:

And that's okay. You're okay to show that. Okay. And you know, I've just realized when you said and this as well. The two people who impacted the two inmates who impacted me when I was in there, Dave and Alfie. They've got some one had a child who had died. One or two upper child that had a serious drug problem. When they were sharing their stories. I always thought wow, I could never be them. I'm always going to be like this little too. personal background. But yeah, I'm having insights. But Wow, No dad got story. And I never thought I could really like that. Because I always almost always know nobody wants to hear well, of course, they must always know. Interesting. And then when I got that power from just telling a story, telling my story and people saying that, yeah, it's okay for me to tell people how I am aware, I am aware of show up as me is more than or is not more than is, is always All right. It's always, it's always well, I just love being in that space.

Angus Ross:

Because people love the truth. Don't they just love the truth. They just want to see someone come from that space. Because it's so compelling and compact, captivating.

Derrick Mason:

That's why I say something else as well, when I say was the vulnerabilities, my vulnerabilities from lay them all out? Then they become my strength? Because when I thought they were vulnerabilities, I was hiding them away. And I didn't really, I put them on the table and say, there they are, have a look. And then when everybody dissects it is still there. And that's, that's, that's me. That's us. Yeah, I can't hide from them. So that's, yeah, that's, that's profound.

Rohini Ross:

And there's something so healing for all of us, when someone shows up as themselves, it really helps us give ourselves that permission to realize that, hey, I can just show up as myself too. And maybe I'm enough as well. And the truth in that, and the feeling in that, even though as you're saying, it's really simple, it's really profound. And we have so much conditioning as human beings that it can be really hard to do, because of that noise that we get. I mean, I can relate to what you're saying, as well. I've lived that too. So it's just being able to break free from that, as you talked about that freedom you experienced, within, like, that's the freedom of just being you. And the feeling of that. Surrender and letting go is so beautiful. And of course, we want to share it with others, like you say you're running around, like What's he doing, but it is it's so infectious, and we want to share it. So you mentioned the visit with with your son and and I know that you mentioned that you're living with your family. And there's been some real shifts in that relationship. So I'd love to, we'd love to hear more about how this understanding has impacted you and the relationship with your family.

Derrick Mason:

Love to, that's what I'm living under. We're living in that right now. So that's proper current for me. But it started out when I said I got the understanding. And I started to soften on certain things. Without an argument on the phone once my partner and I've just about to say something that I shouldn't have probably said and I had that moment was I don't say it, but I didn't say it. But my ego was telling me you're an idiot. He should have said it. And I was 100% in thinking now you should have said it. You're an idiot. When I went back to myself Three hours later, I was thinking Oh, Cushing. You never say nothing, you know, wow, who held on? Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. For hours ago, it was acceptable. Now it's like you're lucky. Oh, wow. is a good thing. You never say that things? Oh, if you poor, you stop that gap. Then don't take the action, then. Okay. So I made a phone call and said yeah, you know, I'm sorry, didn't get the Oh, yeah, I understand sort of reply. Just got Yeah, whatever. But sort of from that, I saw that. There was a lot of examining I had to do on my where my head was that through a lot of our interaction. So when I've come out, rather, I've been using the principles and in obvious I've been using the principles, but I've still some thinking this what other principles does something can you think is outside of the principle? So some behaviors that you have don't apply to the dead? It's not the same rules over there's like quantum physics over there. You're dealing with normal physics there. Yeah, this parts quantum physics, you don't understand this part. Leave that alone. So obviously, I was having that same sort of thinking and I weren't really I fought my relationship with photos in a good space. Not everything that I've done it from a bad place, but space, but I will tell them for good reason. So you must be able to understand but then, in 2010 time ran about the George Floyd incident. We broke up she said that she didn't want to be with me anymore. And he got the thing passed and I don't want to get the siren like

Rohini Ross:

it's all part of the London MBA. Yeah, real city.

Angus Ross:

I remember those days.

Derrick Mason:

Yeah, so um, obviously I'll still have some residual thinking or some residual behaviors in 2019. She said, You know what, she's had enough and she don't I'm not we're talking about how good a principal who liked what was going on Aaron. And it made me have a look a bit after look a bit deeper. And I really saw the like, I hadn't taken for granted for a lot of time was with Iran, I sort of just brushed it all over with us to principals now. So let's just move on. And I hadn't really taken time to revisit what really what I'd really done and what I'd really taken responsibility for individually. But anything that she's still thinking about what she had major thinking about, I should have addressed and gone over and told her where my how my thinking shift because she was still stuck on the actions are done, then. So then when we bring it up, now, I can tell her where my thinking was that more importantly, where my actions, what my actions done, and then she can sort of understand where my actions, why my actions were like that. And it hasn't made it easier. We're not, we're not together anymore, but we've got the best relationship now than we ever had. And we're just coming up to 20 years together. And we've got free, we've got three beautiful children. And I think like I said, my mom, because I blamed her for being such a closed person and my heart being closed and not letting anybody in cuz I didn't want to get her. Since I had that in my mouth, just open, my heart is open, I love anybody. I love anybody. And I know, that's why I said my vulnerability is not my weakness, I put my heart on the table. And because I know it's a strength, you can't get her, you can't show my love to anybody else. I love you to anybody in any place, anywhere that are feeling the moment and I'll express it. So that's me my partner it together. But I think we've got the best relationship. Now we do have the best relationship than we've ever had, we can talk and we can, and who knows where that's gonna go in the future. But like I said, when I was going through, when we first broke up, I realized that we could get together and I could be happy. Or we could not be together and I could still be just as happy, that doesn't determine my happiness, because the same thing, the principles, there's nothing outside of me that can determine my happiness. So if I know that, then I just know that all that happiness comes from in here, and it's just how I choose to share it with people. And if I choose to share it with everybody, and anybody that's willing to accept it, then that's what's gonna make me happy. And yeah, that's what I'm, we're sort of working through it now because it is work in progress. So, yeah, it's, um, I like to say I'm in a beautiful space. But, ya know, I'm gonna say I'm in a beautiful space.

Rohini Ross:

That that is really hopeful and inspiring. And one of the things that Angus say when we work with couples is that we're not attached to them staying together as a result of the work that we do with them, that we really hope that they'll have a deeper connection with their own well being and love inside of themselves. And from that place, they'll make the decisions that make sense from them. But what you're describing is exactly what we're pointing to is that when you have that connection, as you're describing it with that love, and that well being and that peace of mind is like the relationship flourishes. And the form of the relationship isn't necessarily the most important thing. Like you're getting to enjoy that beautiful relationship that seems to be what's important.

Derrick Mason:

Like I said, this thing doesn't make me beat myself up. Over the past 20 years, I've wasted NACA, see opportunities, I've wasted river, I haven't done things that I probably should have done before. But I can see that I'm not beating myself up and just know that I don't think like that anymore. And moving forward from where I am now. I can not address it, but I can show up as as me, as I have meant to have done those many years ago. And that just makes me happy just to be in that space.

Rohini Ross:

That's really beautiful.

Angus Ross:

Well, what are we going to do the questions so yeah, at that point, yet?

Rohini Ross:

Well, they they're, no, we're not gonna do the questions.

Angus Ross:

Oh, we're not gonna do the question. Oh, I've got my wires crossed seven. I strike that from the record.We can ignore that.

Rohini Ross:

Do we now have an exam for you, Derek? is gonna be on the podcast, but no, you have to

Angus Ross:

I'll do a quick recovery and get ourselves back on track. Well, I listened to that. And as awkward as that exchange may have sounded, Believe you me it was a lot more awkward to experience and go. really didn't know what was happening. I was always under the impression that we were doing a podcast but there was something in that exchange that made me question that. I think you were trying to, I guess you were trying to be trying to subtly convey to me that that that he was indeed separated from his partner or that they are no longer Together, and I must have lost the plot somewhere along the line. And obviously, under those conditions, it would be inappropriate to us.

Rohini Ross:

Well, I didn't think I needed to suddenly communicated to you, because he actually said that they broke up.

Angus Ross:

Although I guess I missed that. I guess ultimately would be quite inappropriate to ask a question along the lines of, well, how do you keep physical intimacy alive in your church? It would have definitely, I think being quite problematic. You're You're right.

Rohini Ross:

Or what I'm really curious about is, why did that not occur to you in the moment.

Angus Ross:

I don't know, I just, I don't know, I just say I lost the plot. So what I wanted to say is that just you know, while I probably this is where I would end up, you know, in terms of this is my first real chance to sort of sit down with you and, and kind of meet you for the first time. And what I really get a sense about you is you you know, you are open book, and that book is all about love. And I can see why they would want to have you on on the board of the three PGC. Because, you know, you lead with love, I get that real sense about you. And if I, if I want a leader, I want to be a leader who's looking in that direction. And so, for me, you know, what you talk about vulnerability, and being that open book and, and trusting in that part of yourself, which you refer to being as that referring to as that feeling is like, that's just such an amazing thing to take on board and to expand into. And I think there's just something so beautiful and so genuine about you. And that's, that's where life feels so much more comfortable just living in that, in that genuine state, which is for us. And all of us is is innate and natural. That that's the factory default setting, isn't it? We're designed that way to be open and to be vulnerable and to connect. We're all in this game of life together. And yet we so easily kind of go off into our sort of own internal personal minded camps. When really at the end of the day, you know, we're all we're all in this together. And that love be the sort of like the soup in which we, we we sit from or or we plunge into, I don't know that.

Derrick Mason:

That's beautiful.

Rohini Ross:

You Yeah. And what you're sharing really points to how the understanding that we're all working from isn't just about relationships, Angus, and I chose to do a podcast about rewilding love and relationships. But when we're talking about rewilding love in general, than it applies to every area of life, how can it not, and it has profound impact and just hearing your journey, hearing where you were able to connect with who you are in a deeper way and feel the authentic, unconditional love. That is the essence of who we all are that that one source as you feel that every area of your life transformed. And that is just such a great inspiration for all of us to see what's possible.

Derrick Mason:

love hearing you guys to explain is beautiful mermaid is a space that will end with occupied it just feels so beautiful, and just so genuine and pure. It's just been a beautiful experience of a man I love Akasaka sit and talk about everything about my life, that the whole everything. And I'll just get the same feeling. Because just coming from that same space and like what you said, I'm never gonna see it like the rewilding that I've rewelded the love in myself. And and that's enabled me to go and feel the love and be that yeah, that's beautiful.

Rohini Ross:

And so now through sharing here, you're helping others to reweld the love inside themselves, and who knows what the ripple effects are going to be from what you're sharing here and elsewhere. I mean, it's really what a wonderful example.

Angus Ross:

Yeah, and from that level of understanding, I think this is just becoming more and more apparent to me, is that you start to let go of judgment, you know, those judgments sort of really, you know, you feel like, you have this opinion of this individual because they're showing up in a way that you know, you don't necessarily like let's say, or you know, from the old paradigm, the old way of seeing things. And now you get to see, well, that judgment, all that's doing is I'm shooting myself in the foot here. I'm creating my own suffering. And to be able to let that go. We have a whole different lens through which we experience the world that we live in. And it just is so much more joy filled and so much. So much of the judgments that we feel that kind of like, disrupted those relationships. Now we see those people from a vantage point of like, there's their psychological innocence, they're doing the best that they can. We're all in this together. And I can actually, no, I love you. Alone, hey, on a spiritual level, I love you. And I get to say that, you know, you're beautiful, because I just really get a sense from like, being here now with you is like, I just feel like you really live that. And that's just, that's just fantastic. And it's and it's rare, I think, in this day and age to really get a sense of people like, they really get this and they really live their life that way. And I think that's admirable, and beautiful.

Derrick Mason:

A speech as beautiful that you just said, Angus.

Rohini Ross:

Yeah. Well, thank you. I know that I've been deeply impacted by our conversation. And by listening to you share and other podcasts and interviews. So I really acknowledge you and thank you for the work that you're doing in the world. And to me, what you were saying in terms of after, you know, the the murder of George Floyd, recognizing that more love is needed. And that is what heals. And there's many different ways of going about that. And I'm glad that people play different roles, but to hear you having such a deep connection with that love within yourself and being willing to get uncomfortable, stretch, grow, do paperwork. You willing to do all of that in order to spread the love in the world that warms my heart?

Angus Ross:

Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much for inviting me a total pleasure and honor on our speakers. I'm just in that feeling right now, guys. Yeah, Yeah, me too. And just thank you for being so determined to be you and us just so amazing. It's just really wonderful to you know, to be able to be with someone who's just so willing to sort of be open and be honest and be vulnerable. I think that's just a such a wonderful quality.

Rohini Ross:

And it is contagious. Because just in this conversation, I can feel how my heart is more open now as a result of this conversation. So it's really beautiful. Especially with all of anguses shenanigans. judgments running left, right and center to get the microphone ready. What's he been doing? Why is he gonna be back upstairs?

Angus Ross:

I know. I feel like I need to go in for the rest of the day. I might be in big trouble now.

Derrick Mason:

The Edge totally off me and that just helped me to get an anchor.

Angus Ross:

Good. But then we also have to negotiate the fact that I thought we were doing this for something else. We doing this for a podcast. We are then why didn't we ask the questions then?

Rohini Ross:

Because the questions are for people who aren't broken up.

Angus Ross:

I thought... okay. I thought they could still.

Rohini Ross:

Derek you are working with real professionals.

Angus Ross:

I couldn't find my questions. No. You guys.

Rohini Ross:

So great meeting you. I look forward to staying connected. And at some point, we'll be back in London. So maybe we can see you at the conference or somewhere. We'll be in line waiting to speak to you.

Angus Ross:

We're gonna seek you out now. without any hesitation. That definitely! That was beautiful man.

Rohini Ross:

Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If you enjoyed this podcast, please let us know by subscribing on iTunes. And we would love for you to leave a review there.

Angus Ross:

iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need help with their relationships.

Rohini Ross:

If you would like to learn more about our work, and our online Rewilding Community, please visit our website, therewilders.org

Angus Ross:

Thanks for listening. Join us next week.