Glazing Insider
Inspiring interviews with the people that make the glazing industry great. We discuss hot topics, stories, struggles and career journeys to provide you with helpful insights. Hosted by Richard Lannen (rhymes with cannon) the founder of Glazing Insider - independent media channels dedicated to glazing & the fenestration industry.
Glazing Insider
Chris Mullen, Jamie Blackwood & Pouya Bostani Co-Owners of Premier Roof Systems & Classic Windows
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode I talk with Chris Mullen, Jamie Blackwood & Pouya Bostani who are the co owners of the Premier Roof Systems & Classic Windows. In this conversation they talk us through their fenestration journeys all the up to acquiring another company.
I'm Richard Lannon, Roger Cannon, and this is the Glazing Insider Industry Podcast. Welcome to the podcast dedicated to the people of the glazing industry. In this episode, I talk with the co-owners of Premier Roof Systems and Classic Windows. In this conversation, Chris, Jamie and Puya talk us through their full fenestration journey all the way up to acquiring another company. So without further ado, let's get started. So, gentlemen, you are co-owners of Premier Roof Systems and Classic Windows, but how did you get there? How did you get into the fenestration world?
SPEAKER_01Well, I suppose it makes sense that I start that one because I was in the industry first and I got Chris into the industry.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_01So from when I got into it when I when I left school, like most people, I jumped into a couple of things. I'd had a little bit of time at college trying to get into computers because computers were the future in the 90s when I left school in 97. It became apparent pretty soon that sitting in front of a computer wasn't what I wanted to do. Wanted to get into manual work, so I did like join a traineeship doing joinery. Did that for a little bit, but then I was offered my uncle worked at a window fabricators in the money I was getting as a trainee compared to all of a sudden being offered the huge sum of £80 a week working for this window company was an offer I couldn't refuse. So I got it. Just gradually, over a number of years made my way around really to different parts of the factory. Pretty much became an accomplished fabricator. I ended up leaving there to go back to college, thinking I can't remember what I even left to do actually. I was gonna you know push myself on a little bit, kind of went full circle, and then quitting that a year down the line or so, got back into the industry again. Um and that's when I was working for a different window company over in Gateshead, and I think that by that point Chris was pretty much at school lever age, um so I knew he was kind of although we're looked the same age, yeah. I knew he was looking for work, and I can't remember if your brother worked there at the time or not.
SPEAKER_05No, it was he came afterwards.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, so I I obviously put a put a good word in for Chris and it kind of went from there. Really, Chris got involved in the in the window side of things and uh worked alongside each other for quite a bit. Then I went on the company started doing the concert roofs, and they took me off the windows, put us on the concert roofs. Then I that's when I started developing me concert roof experience and and expertise. Maybe it's a good point for Chris to jump into his take from that point.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, I mean when I when I did leave school, um college, university wasn't really anything I was passionate about. Um I was a typical C C grade student. Um did just what I needed to do to pass my exams and didn't really go much past that anyway. Um I tried for a career in the armed forces. I tried for the Royal Marines Commandos and um it didn't quite work out the way I wanted it to, so I was medically discharged due to an injury.
SPEAKER_04Oh wow.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um I had to get a job basically, um, and that that was you know where where Jamie came in and got me a job at at a window manufacturing company in GayT, which isn't too far from where I live. And uh yeah, it went from there. And I was always one of them people that always wanted to know what somebody else is doing rather than what I was doing. You know, and uh I kind of worked my way around the factory and you know became multi-skilled at the job, and you know, obviously I was probably as as as Jamie said earlier, an accomplished fabricator from you know, from being like 17 years old. So I did just so happened at the time as well. The uh the guy who was he was was kind of factory foreman. Um he he quit, he left and uh took his place and I was I was just I was 18 years old and you know I was kind of almost managing a factory with people that were twice made, so it was uh it was interesting. Um but what I did from there, I I kind of left and wanted to be a professional boxer. So I did that. Um I gave it a go. And uh it was probably not one of my best decisions, but I was very competitive. I was quite good at the sport anyway, so I thought I would give it a go. And yeah, I I wasn't quite active as much as I should have been. Uh injuries, things like that. There's not wasn't really a lot of opportunities in the northeast. So naturally after time, um I ended up back in work again. And that was just in the double glazing industry again. I was manufacturing windows for another local company, and you know, me and Jamie we'd spoke about setting a company up ourselves a good few times, but we just never had the fund they were never had the resources to do it. We didn't have the money. Uh and you know, some of the ideas uh we all we spoke about taking over a food shop, um fruit and vegetable shop, which I I think I'm glad we didn't we didn't go for that one. But um the first choice was window fabrication, but then we realised that you know we didn't have any money and it's it's quite an expensive setup, machines are expensive, saws are expensive, and we realised we didn't need a lot of money to set up as a concert roof fabricator, so that's it's kind of the the obvious choice. I didn't know a thing about roofs at the time, and I kind of relied on Jamie a lot for that, but that's kind of where we started. Um having having meetings with with company representatives in the one was in my living room. We originally met the Rayhow representative, Homer, in in my sitting room, and we met Tony Morrison from USL and Jamie's. Uh so yeah, it was probably interesting for them as well as it was for us.
SPEAKER_01It was always one of the hard things try trying to approach big companies like like Rayhow, like Uracil, like Ultra Frame, like global at Cincinnati at the time. And the the first thing they want to know is what company are you? Where are you calling from? Well, I'm not really a company, I've kind of been working for someone for how many years. Um I'm not anymore, but I want to set up on my own. And I get it from their point of view, it's there's a lot of risk attached to that. You sort of especially the the age we were at the time. Chris was 24, I was 29. Coming to have a come to me sitting room to have a meeting in a pretty small council house in probably not the probably not the nicest areas in the world. We love them areas where we were from, but I'm just meaning you know, they're not walking into big posh estates or anything like that. But yeah, I think you know that we met with a few people, some places we went to, like I say, these in particular came came to us. But I think it was just a case of obviously after meeting we understood we have got the background for it, yeah. We have you know hopefully showed we have the determination and the vision for it. The only thing we didn't have was a business.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we just had a had a Littlewoods computer set up in in the living room.
SPEAKER_01I catalogue bought a PC and uh set he turned round and face it as well. Just watching, waiting for the emails to drop in.
SPEAKER_05It was uh it was funny.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean obviously the the big step was when we're told by the the head sales guy from Uracell they gave us some ideas of prices. We managed to speak to a couple of glass companies, they gave ideas, uh, polycarbonate companies. So we kind of knew where we're after through experience, sort of knew what things were selling for. So you know, that was about as in-depth a business plan as it got, a few numbers in my heads and a few scraps on a scribbles on a piece of paper, and going, Well, if we can buy for that, what can I say? Ah, it's that sounds easy. This business game, let's let's start doing it.
SPEAKER_05So uh we need some money first.
SPEAKER_01So that's when came the next big challenge, and that was getting a couple of pennies to rub together. So that that kind of evolved where Chris took the, like we just touched on, took the first big step when I turned up at his house one day and there was a a computer set up which he'd bought from his mum's catalogue uh because we didn't have the money for it, so that's it. We've got debt now, we're we're in the finance world. So I need to get I need to get obviously we needed more than the computer. So I went to the bank for a loan. Obviously, banks were lending money a lot easier back then. The hard thing about going to the bank for a loan when you actually haven't got a job is that they're probably not gonna lend you the money. But to be fair, they didn't know I didn't have a job, so I just went in and applied for a loan. You didn't lie, you just didn't tell them everything, did you? That's about me my earnings and things, and I told them what my earnings were, albeit they'd stopped about three weeks before that. So yeah, I managed to get a I mean, I don't mind saying the numbers, I managed to get a 12 grand loan, but I had some personal debts that wouldn't have made it affordable, so I had to consolidate. Basically, we ended up with five grand that we could use to to get the business started. We're trying to think of people who were new, any any possible friends, family, or that business people we know who might be able to get a little bit of money our way. Um, when I'm speaking to to one of our friends, it probably mostly Chris was a bit more involved in that at the time.
SPEAKER_05I basically asked asked one of my friends to lend us five grand, and he did, so that's a good friend. That was that was that was my half of the of the deal.
SPEAKER_01And uh but yeah, as it happens, our friends he was the first employer, wasn't he? When the business started building up money to driver, he was the first person to get a job out of work, still works for the company to this day, so he's been paid back. How'd you know that? He has been paid back, otherwise he'd be happy. Five grand back from back then, mind you.
SPEAKER_05Oh, yeah, didn't make it that.
SPEAKER_01But other than that, it was it was yeah, it was that the first big steps um was obviously the the Uracile rep, and we decided it was USL roofs we were gonna go with, kind of got the point where he said, We were kind of saying, right, well, what's what's happening? What's the next step? And he pretty much said, Well, there isn't a next step until I can physically see a factory or an office or some sort of industrial premises that he's gonna make these roofs from. So that's when it was really let's let's go for it. So we uh we found a unit, I think it was about 2,000 square foot. Yeah, it was um local there were. I think it was something like £1,200 a month rent. So it was like, all right, that's fair enough. But then they wanted one month up front, they wanted one month as a bond. So straight away out of this 10 grand that we've managed to scrape together, there's the best part of three gun. Um then we had to kit it out. Every roof um manufacturer needs to have a build floor, they need to have benches and you have places for your stock to go in, you need to have your at least a chop saw, a few hand tools, things like that.
SPEAKER_05We obviously needed a van, which we had to pay the VAT deposit for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So before we even were in a position to place a stock order, we're probably down to about two and a half grand left, three grand or something left out of out of the money we had. So gone obviously spoke to the technical guys at Uracell. Um kind of do us a basic stock order based on maybe about five roofs of variation of uh styles and shapes and what have you. Um so they came back with an initial stock order of about six grand. Aye, and I think I remember, I can't remember where we were going at the time, but I remember in the car, my dad was driving. I was in the front passenger seat. Chris was in the back, and I got the phone call, and I went to Chris, oh, oh, six grand, right? Uh no, for like two seconds, and I'm looking around at Chris's mouth and the words, oh man, he got two and a half. So I was just I'll forget back. Yeah, so um kind of went away, had a look at what they propose, what stock we're gonna get. This will probably not mean a lot to a lot of people, but people who know about conservatives will understand it was things like look, don't give us any material to make Victorians, forget about double hips, remove all your box cutters. We need the first couple of orders to be a couple of standard sort of Edwardians. So we managed to get the stock right down just to get the wheels in motion. That was a little bit stock on the shelves, kind of pretty much took every penny we had, and then we got the first order. Luckily, which talk about things going full circle, the first order was off the first window company I ever worked for for that £80 a week. He he bought the first ever roof off her, so um, and he was good enough, even though he's the sort of guy who could have got an account anyway. He was good enough to pay on order. Didn't you know we weren't in a position to say pay us 30 day end a month, but we would have been out of business by then if we didn't get any money in. So he paid one order, um, but then came, all right, so I need to order some polycarbonate. Where's the money going to come from? That so that was like right back to the drawing board, where can we get some more money from? So um I seen my brother, says, Have you got any limit on any of the credit cards? And then give us a couple of credit cards, which probably added up to about two grand on it. So I was buying polycarbonate from the suppliers and paying them on my brother's credit card. Yes, scrimming, scrimming and screaming like that, really. Uh, but like I say, luckily we're we're we had a couple of customers that understood my position. That you know, a lot of them had been there themselves back when they started off and the accepted, look, if we've got to pay you up front, we'll pay you up front. Not purely to help us. I'm sure the price was right for them as well, so it'd save them a bit of money. But uh, yeah, we would feel like we're quite lucky in that respect.
SPEAKER_05Right, I mean, what you want to think of as well is we weren't earning any money at the time either. So it wasn't only we were borrowing using other people's credit cards and things, yeah, to pay for stock, pay for you know utilities and all that. We weren't we weren't earning any money, and that went on for a for a long period of time. And you know, sometimes I I remember it like it was yesterday. We'd uh we'd have jobs going out, um we didn't have any stock to make them. So we'd wait for the stock coming in on a Thursday and we'd just put brutal shifts in, work right through the night, crazy amounts of overtime, just just to get the jobs out, and uh at the time it felt like it was all for nothing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Which people don't think about they they they just assume you're putting in how many hours a day. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01God, there's no fun in doing twenty twenty hours a day and then not getting paid at the end of it. It's not for the faint heart, it's brutal.
SPEAKER_05It's not there's there's sometimes I I mean that there's there's there's times when you look back and actually miss it. Although it sounds sounds ridiculous. I I miss those shifts and um it was a it was a good it's good to reflect on and you know I would do it all again without without you know without even giving it a thought. I would definitely do it again. Um even though it was it was challenging, I'll say. But there was there was a couple of times we had the opportunity to get to have investors in, people interested in working with us, because you know we'd we'd started doing very well and we came very close, you know. There was there was a lot of times where we we had had conversations and we thought look that this is it's it's all over now. We've we've got no money, we can't we can't trade, but we always seem to find a way through. And and I think you know, I'm I'm always the optimist, you know, I always think it's gonna work out. And no matter how bad the situation is and that or how bad it's been, we've always there's always been something that's that's kind of came through and and got us through it, and I think I I mean back back in the day it was me and Jamie doing everything, you know, from from just having a regular job um to then you know uh trying to manage a business as you know it it's it's another level. You you start to do things that you didn't think you were capable of doing and learn things learn things on the job really.
SPEAKER_04So going back to then, I'm intrigued now. That first customer, how how did you get him? Did you just use your contacts or or did you have sort of a because you're doing everything and marketing is a massive part of that? Did you just go with connections first and thought we'll work it out later?
SPEAKER_01It was absolutely that. It was um a lot of it, well, pretty much 100% of it, it was it was local trade guys who knew me through the roofs anyway. Obviously, a lot of them knew Chris through the industry, through the window companies he'd worked for. Well, like to think we'll get on with people, so kind of felt like we were a lot of friends in the trade. Um, yeah, and we're we're just people knew it was happening before it happened. Once I left the company I was working for, the rumour mill started, oh, they're going to start this or that or whatever. Um, so naturally a couple of people would kind of keep in touch, ask how you're going, and then once the cat was out of the bag, we'd spread a little bit. And some that that was easy with the ones we were like pretty close to, friend-wise. A lot of people in the industry might have knew we're doing it, they might not have. So it was a case of literally turning up, picking the phone up. I mean, I when it was just me and Chris and we kind of took turns to do to deliver to do the deliveries ourselves. I couldn't drive past a window shop without pulling over and walking in and going to hire. And this is someone who hates salesmen turning up unannounced, me. But I excuse me, I'm not a salesman, but do you mind if I just kind of introduce myself and um I think it was one of the first ones was a but would have been prior, wouldn't it? Yeah, uh I walked into someone's shop and I'd you know kind of says, I'm sorry to turn up unannounced and all the rest of it, and had a little bit of chat. And uh he even says, Look, mate, if if if you'd come in here like a salesman unannounced and you were trying to be pushy and all that, you would have you would have lasted 30 seconds, you would have been out the door. So that can kind of tell you you're genuine, you're just someone who wanted to talk and all the rest of it, and and you know, they they give her a chance. And yeah, there's people who were new in the industry, but we wouldn't necessarily say we were friends with or or even all that close to or had much of a relationship with for that matter, but uh picking the phone up, just trying, just the the the old school way of uh god, we used to sit and put my finger on the yellow pages and run down. Right? You ring that one, I'll ring that one, you ring that one, I'll ring that one. And you don't know who you're ringing half the time. So when you're ringing a man in a van or a guy who's up a ladder, I'm just wondering how you get your concert roofs off. Quite often the conversation you get back's two words, the second word's off. So then that's it. But uh we couldn't, like I in I mean this literally as well as theoretically, we couldn't afford not to to let the pride get in the way. We couldn't afford not to step into the uncomfortable situations because there was too much riding on it. I mean, literally at the time I had quite a newborn baby, I think my daughter was probably about one. Um no, sorry, my son was about one, my daughter was about three, and I had a you know a mortgage, and this not working, and the fact that I'd got into a bit more personal debt as a result of this, to me was like me houses on the line, my kids' houses on the line, my marriage is on the line, and that's how serious it was. I mean, you don't know what would have happened if it had all gone wrong, and everything got took off when the bank were knocking at the door and all the rest of it. It's you never know, but you can imagine the sort of pressure that that puts you under as well. It was all in. That that's that's what it was. It was all in. There was there was no there was no turning the bridges and turning back round. We just had to make it work. There's no two ways about it.
SPEAKER_04I suppose, as well, when when you ring people like that, you just get a bit used to it, don't you? Like from a sales point of view, I'm used to a no. In fact, I prefer a no because I know where I am. It's the ones that go, Oh, let me think about that, and then a year later, you know they're not coming back. But they they could have just avoided that whole chasing and you know, following up process. They just said, No, I'm not interested. Yeah, but I never had those words said to me, put it that way.
SPEAKER_05You know, it's never something I've been comfortable with. No phone up to you know to somebody I don't know and trying to sell them. Um it did ironically ended up sales directly because I'm not really a sale. Well, I'm I sale am I a sales person? I don't really know if I am a salesperson. I'm not a salesperson, I just I just get on with people really. Um and that's what that's what sales is, it's getting on with people. I suppose every you suppose we sell things every day without realising it, don't we? Yeah. Ideas or whatever it is. But I think um I think it was the first the first two employees that we took on, they're still with the company now. Um we took uh Michael and Kevin on in the first year and that they're still there now.
SPEAKER_04Um That's that speaks a lot because you you don't get that very often. But a lot of companies can start very quickly and if they're at the start, they're in at the deep end with you, you know, they they're going through those shifts.
SPEAKER_05And uh And even even companies, tradesmen that we deal with or dealt with back then, they're still with us today. Well, I think uh me and Jamie I think we're likable people. But it's it's no nonsense kinda, you know it is how it is with us. And the values haven't really changed since we started the business up. We're still very much involved with the day-to-day things, which I mean I I think what what is what does it mean even be a director? I I suppose everybody's got their own take on what a director is. And maybe, you know, I get involved in too many things that I shouldn't. But it's just the way it's just the way I am, I suppose. And I would struggle letting go of certain things, especially people that I've dealt with for a long time. It's I don't suppose it's really fair to say, well, you know, can you can you go and speak to this guy now? 'Cause I'm too busy for you. I think what would you say was one of the well one of the turning points where after twelve months we we moved moved premises, we took on a new product. Um it was quite new to the market, it was the warm roof systems. You know, it was there's nobody doing them. A lot of a lot of stock, a lot of lot of money, a lot of layout. But we we jumped in. I've always been a bit of a risk taker. And uh you know, I thought it seemed like a really good idea, and Jamie, Jamie did as well. Maybe not at first, but uh he did in the end.
SPEAKER_01I'm a I'm a thinker. I'm a thinker. I wonder we we knew the demand was going to be there for the warm reef roofs because people were coming to us about them before we'd even really looked at them ourselves. And then obviously speaking to the supplier that was spoken to, it was um it was clearly that clear that they were grown. So yeah, it's I sometimes can can think and think and think and almost try to make it a certainty that there's no way it could fail. Whereas Chris is more like just go for it and see what happens. I think somewhere between the two, it kind of like the the risks are taken, but there's a little bit of mitigation there as well. So, but yeah, God, I mean the warm roof has just been huge to the to the business, to the industry once they took off, so it was definitely a risk worth taking when all that.
SPEAKER_05It's still the biggest product now to us. Um probably will be for a while.
SPEAKER_04That's probably a good balance though, isn't it? That the way that you're sort of looking ahead thinking, yeah, this is good, but then you're just applying that uh the enough caution so that you don't run away and vice versa, you know, you don't stay where you are.
SPEAKER_05My market research probably goes as far as well, they're doing it, so can we. So let's just do it. Kind of thing. It obviously works for them, so I'm sure we can make it work as well. And and that's kind of that's that's kind of what I do. No, I'm not I'm not that not that bad, but you know, I wouldn't say I go much further than just thinking if they can do it, we can do it.
SPEAKER_01Kind of compared ourselves previously to a couple of Martin and Giants and Chris's Nike, just do it. And I'm I'm more like Guinness good things come to those who wait. So they're both successful in their own right.
SPEAKER_04Aye, just do it. I like that. So you got your new unit, uh, new tooling and things. So was there more pressure at that point to to get the roofs out for warm roof, or did it sort of go quite well with customers you just had more coming in, or did you have to go hunting again?
SPEAKER_05I was very slow, wasn't it? I mean, at first it it we struggled moving it off the shelf because it was so expensive. I think a lot of the tradesmen thought, well, people aren't gonna buy these, um, and they're quite labour intensive as well. But we started we started installing them ourselves and with you know, selling the products, fitting the products, and it wasn't really it didn't take long for the trade to kind of cotton onto it and say, Well, actually, you know, I think these are gonna be a big thing. Um, and that's when we started selling them. So I th you know, I mean, the first couple that we did, I did one for a friend, we did it cheap, I knew who he was, um, and you know, thankfully it's still standing, but it's it's it's out of 10 years guarantee now. He's it's 11 years. Yeah, that's in the middle of the point. So if it comes down, he's he's by himself. Now, but yeah, it was uh again, it was like the conservative roofs, it was a bit more of a case of let's let's ring around the trade and see you know if we can get them onto this system and you know we'll we'll support them in any way we can't, uh, you know, get the product out there. But again, it's it's it was another thing to learn, it was another thing to manufacture, we're to get our heads around all these different components, you know. They're quite labour intensive as well. We needed big a bigger space, uh so we got a we'd we'd got the bigger factory way in there, and it wasn't it was probably six months later we've got the unit next door, and then the unit next door to that. So it it did really take off with the warm roofs and alongside that you know, we started employing people, um, friends, family, people we knew, things like that. And I think that's for for me that's when I got a feeling that you know we could really do something here. It's it's starting to become a business that you know is doing well. And uh I think taking the taking the plunge to start with with with nothing, with with well, you know, borrowed money and and not a lot of it, to then, you know, taking on new products and employing staff and new factory premises and things like that. We've always kind of really wanted to wanted to make a go of it. We didn't set up just to be well I didn't I didn't anyway, to set up just just to be one one another company out there, just another local company that made roofs for the rest of my life until I retire. Um it wasn't the plan, it wasn't the intention anyway.
SPEAKER_01And another huge challenge was competitors. No nobody likes to see the the new boys on the block. So obviously the company I was working for at the time were naturally gonna become a big competitor. All their customers knew me, I was a manager, um, and and it was only natural. I was doing things wrong, but totally ruthless. I'm not totally ruthless, and the intention wasn't let's go out there and try and pinch anyone else's customers, but at the end of the day, we needed to get it off the ground, so I wasn't gonna be shy to approach people either. And naturally, they were gonna use everything in their power to to put a brick wall in front of us, so um and I don't blame them for that now. Uh, but yeah, we had had certain challenges the way by the the you know, let's call them the competitor, they were contacting suppliers, glass suppliers, polycarbonate suppliers. If you supply premier, you'll never get another bit of business out of us ever again. And look how much money we're spending with glass, whereas me and Chris were nobody, or a couple of you know, under 30s just just starting out. I mean, I know we fully understand why there was a massive risk for certain suppliers to to kind of bow down to that. But it's another thing where and it happened, but we had a glass supplier refused to supply her. Sorry, I've had such and such on the phone. If I supply you, they won't they won't buy offers again, so wouldn't supply her. Um had a polycarbonate supplier do the same thing. We got lucky with glass because one of our customers had was was his business was quite big and he spent a lot of money, he spent more money than these guys that were trying to put out of business, and cause I'd like to say because he thought we're all right, genuine lads, he wanted to help out, so here he got on the phone and said to this glass supplier, well, if you're if you're only interested in supplying this other company and you're not going to give these lads a chance, why don't I take all my work elsewhere? And all of a sudden the the owner of the company stepped in, had a world of these sales guy, and then they came back when and apologised and says, Look, it's fair enough, we shouldn't refuse to sell you. So that was a lucky break in the business that that guy kind of did that for us, so we've always been grateful for that. Um with the polycarbonate supplier, there was a it was a local company that refused to supply with because of the competitors telling them not to. So we went with one of the national ones, who's the same polycarbonate supplier we use to this day. Um there's a lot of loyalty there for them. We have since many times had that other polycarbonate supplier come to see we and try to get our business back. We're not totally unforgiving, you know. We've we're I I do get it from their point of view, they were in a bit of a noteward position, but there is a bit of a bit of male pride there saying you're coming back to us now, now that we're bigger than the company we're in competition with, but uh at the same time, you've got to have a it's not all about pride and business, you've got to have a business head on and and and this and the the options that are out there. So yeah, we had that. We had competitors finding out how customers were and sending sending faxes out at the time and things like that, saying we will definitely beat any any price you ever get off premier. They could afford to make roofs at a loss. We couldn't, simple as that. Did they mention you by name? Oh, yeah, go on, yeah. Oh, we had we had we had we had people drive driving, uh we'd have a trade guy pull away from our factory, then have someone follow him in his car, and when he gets pulled over, I'll get out. Why are you buying roofs off premier? If you come to us, you know, we'll definitely beat the prices and things like that. I don't know if you know about that one, Chris, but I'll tell you who that was. Uh also like I say, it's I I I get it, I'm not saying I agree with it, but we were a threat. There was no concerted roofs, not like window companies, especially not back then, there was no competition, and all of a sudden there was competition, and even though we were just two guys who didn't have business backgrounds or anything, it was still a slight threat, so their kind of thought process probably was let's let's nip this in the bud and end them before they begin. And not trying to not trying to kind of big up me and Chris too much, but we're up for the fight, and it it was, yeah, it was a right, let's let's take it on. It wasn't nice, it wasn't pretty, it was hard, it was stressful, had a big big impact on personal lives and things like that, but uh grit your teeth and get on with it, and that's what we did.
SPEAKER_05And I think it boiled down to us being prepared to do whatever we had to do, yeah. And you know, not having the same commitment from from let's call it competition.
SPEAKER_01But we weren't the sort of people to sit there and go, Oh no, wait, we have to make 30% margin, for example. To be fair, we didn't really have business heads on with, we just had a well graft has that's all we were. Graft has determined, ambitious, the sort of well, some people might say there's not much business sense even now, but the the business side of it kind of developed over time, yeah. So it was but but all that being said, because some people that might listen to this might know the people who were talking about and think I'm being negative, I'm not, because these all these people we're talking about, the the competitor I would try to squash with, but we're literally good friends with the owners now. Good friends, that were customers of ours, do each other favours where we can, you know. We've we've never fell out with people, I don't think we fell out with anyone for for any reason, and there's there's you know, people know what business can be like. Sometimes it's it's dog eat dog, killer be killed, but uh it's sometimes it has been frustrating because you know that.
SPEAKER_05What I say, it's probably unfair to say look after people because they're a customer at the end of the day and they buy products, but you break your backs to help people sometimes, and um they they literally will find something that's two percent cheaper somewhere else and go for it. Um it's it's literally whoever's the cheapest will get the business, regardless of how well you look after them or how many favours you've done them, but that is business, but you you get others who will deal with out of tell for a lot of years now and 100% loyal. That doesn't mean we exploit that in any way because we'd never do that. But you know, sometimes in business it's they say business isn't personal, which I I disagree with. I don't think business is not personal, I think for a lot of companies that it is personal, to me it's personal. I am conscious of what we do as a company and I am proud of what we do, I'm proud of where we started and where we are now. I'd like to think that we're the best company out there because I I think that we are. I'm interested.
SPEAKER_04Oh I'm intrigued. So with that fight as such, one I don't know why you pick a fight with a box in the first place, that's just stupid. But I'm sort of looking at it for you two, it was personal, it was your lives. Whereas I see a company that's usually competition and they're trying to apply tactics like that, it's it's just a job to them. Usually it's a salesperson that it's their job to get that and they're finishing at five. Yeah, they're finishing on a Friday, whereas you were going all weekend, you were thinking about it day and night, making sure you had money coming in, and it's a completely different game to you. Well, from my take, that's why you kept going, you fought in a completely different way that they ever would.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Unless it's the owners that you're up against, then it it just business brings out that side in people, I think. And it's I think people in your position never have to fear that because you're not going to give up. It's the ones that you know they do finish at five, they will stop, and they'll they'll have the weekend to themselves, and that's when you can keep going and just do what you do.
SPEAKER_01That'll be why we're never finished at five for a good couple of years. I mean, we've had some some crazy shifts from from getting in, I think, seven o'clock one morning and realizing it was two o'clock in the morning before we sat down for a break.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And we're like, it's two o'clock in the morning. This is what this is we're first break. This is what morning break. But we started at seven o'clock the previous morning. And it's like, I'm I'm hungry, where can we go? So luckily, one of the Asdas was open 24 hours. So, drove to Asda at two o'clock in the morning, got her a meal deal, which inevitably had an energy drink as part of it to keep her going. Um we did some crazy shifts. I remember finishing three o'clock one morning and going home, getting two hours, three hours at the most, being back at work at seven o'clock, and and repeat. And I think even on one of them shifts, Chris didn't bother. Going home, we just we worked through, or Chris would have a tiny little leather two seat there in the office. Sometimes he would just catch an hour on that and then and and then back to it. Power nap onto the next roof. That's just that's just how life was. We're partners, loved with then.
SPEAKER_04Perfect example though, because uh no doubt your competition would have been asleep at that time. You know, they weren't up at two, three in the morning. That's you know, they're just they catch you in the morning and and try again.
SPEAKER_05So after that point, what's the next step? I think uh obviously it was the new units at St. Hillers, the warm roofs. Um, and that's kind of when we started marketing more often, um, speaking of papers, getting trying to get our name out there a bit more. And that's really when we kind of start when we met Poya. And I'll let Jamie tell you a little bit about that one because um you poached them from the local newspaper.
SPEAKER_01I'm not doing yeah credibility any good, yeah. Look at what was it was saying again, it was um I'd I would always do what I'd had to do for the business. And yeah, what we wanted to we wanted to get our name out there, we wanted to be a brand, we wanted to be recognised. So speaking of advertising companies, obviously a couple of trademarks and things like that, but local press, because we're doing quite a bit of installing at the time as well. So a lot of the the local papers in the northeast area were run by one company, and they would come and see when we'd discuss different packages and things, and then uh I knew I wanted to be online, I wanted to be big online. Social media was just sort of kicking off, e-commerce was just sort of kicking off, eBay was at its peak back then. Um there wasn't Amazon wasn't really a big player at the time, um, not not compared to eBay anyway. So but then it was it was people aren't buying conservatives online, really. It's it's not like I don't know, selling protein drinks or makeup or aftershaves and things like that that are that are in a box in a choriart and gone, but we kind of knew that was going to be the way forward one way or another, somehow. Um so yeah, speaking of the people who are dealt with for the the newspaper adverts and things, and then they wanted the the digital marketing guy to come down, which happened to be Puyar, so he came down with the rep who we used to deal with. And uh not not trying to big him up too much because he's sitting across the desk from us, but he pretty much blew us away. Came came in, sat down. What what what's your online presence like? Looked into a website. Have you have you got a Google Summit or other account? Whatever, but he's active on Twitter, they sat near that. Oh, I'm gonna set that up for you now. Did I was just sitting there thinking, nah, you're working for us, like you're working for us one day. So he did his bit, did it did a very good job, and uh it was yeah, like I say, cheesy as it might sound, it was pretty much that's the missing piece to the puzzle. So the the him and Puyah and the rep finished the the bit and obviously tried to sell us some advertising package or other. Um and they left, and luckily they were they came in separate cars, and even luckier was that the the main rep left first. So before Puyo managed to get in his car, I ran outside and offered him a job. I says, Look, come and work for us, man. How are we in? He's like, Look, I wouldn't do that. He says, I work for the as well. Well, what about if you do a bit of freelance work for us? A bit of I'll give you a bit of money on weekends, do a bit social media for us, set some things up and all that. He says, Look, I'm kind of I've got me sort of morals about this. If I'm working employed by someone and they've sent me to you, I can't then take work from them and do work for you. He says it's just not right. So I wouldn't, I wasn't raised that way, I wouldn't do that. So I want them to work for even more after that. So I was like, right, I was going home, I was watching Tony Robbins' motivational speeches, how to influence people and things like that. And I was determined as he's he's going to work for what he's got to do one day. But I was we kept up a working relationship from there. Um, and one day I was kind of in, I think they'd been round and everyone had left, all the wood shut, everyone was gone. It wasn't that late, it was probably about half five or something, but but it was the dark nights, it was when Anna's in the office on the own, and I heard a knock at the door, and I was like, Oh god, who's this? What is it? Yeah, and it was him. He says, Yeah, you know, you mentioned before about possibly looking for someone, right? Have a seat straight away. That was it. We started talking, got the ball rolling from there, and I'd like to think he seen something in us going from working from a multi-million pound company to a pretty small company that probably wasn't even at a million turnover at the time or roundabout there at the most, just at a million. Yeah, and the conversation got started, and that was it. The second he left the room, I sent Chris a message saying, right, we've uh we're on. There's potentially going to be a big shift of the business now. The the digital side that we're looking for is on the verge of happening.
SPEAKER_05I mean, what you've got to think of as well at the time, it was the salary, the company car. We thought, Jesus, this this is oh yeah, this this is massive for for us anyway. It was huge, it was a massive step.
SPEAKER_01From from spending £500 a month on local advertising and things like that, I was all of a sudden paying an experienced market to you at digital martin, or that which is the future company car, a mortar and budget.
SPEAKER_05Well, that was that was the surprise, wasn't it? We thought we'll pay we'll pay these wages out, we'll get this company car, and then uh that that's it. Let's go. But then, right, okay, lads, what's my budget? What do you mean? What's the budget?
SPEAKER_00You you all have just do just do that was quite funny, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01But even even then we're I'm I'm not saying our industry's old fashioned, but in our area, it was it was there was newspaper ads and little handbooks that went out of people's doors. And when we're telling people in the industry that we've taken this step and it's going to cost this much a year, people are telling me what we're absolutely mad. Why would you spend that much? Just spend a grand a month with the local newspapers and and all the rest of it. Take on a salesman, that sort of thing. I was like, I know, but I'm not claiming to be an expert in marketing, but I get marketing, I always got what it was, what it was about. You know, I followed brands like Apple and Nike and things like that, and it's it's not a I always knew it, it's not about how they we're selling this product for this price. Do you want to buy off with? You want it it's about the feel that it puts out there to it's it's different to trade as it is to domestic, but they've both and that was part of what exciting is. How do you want how do you come across different? How do you come across in a way to domestic that might not quite sit right with a trade, but you need to come across to the trade that might not sit in the and there's a fine balance, yeah. And there's there's yeah, there's there's a secret source saying I didn't know the recipe to it, but we needed to to bring something in to try and get it to get it right.
SPEAKER_05So Jamie did all uh Jamie did all the thinking and I just said, Let's do it.
SPEAKER_04So as I could have imagined that. Because you could look at it a different way. You could say, Let's take that money and put that in our pockets if you really wanted. Yeah. You know, that that's what some companies would have done.
SPEAKER_01W did a lot of that in I mean Even to this day, we've done a lot of that. We we've employed first, but we've said a few times if we'd run things as lean as possible with the two of us with minimum staff, we could have been earning personally and and for the business, we could have been earning a lot more money than we were a lot sooner than we were. So it seemed like every time the business was getting to a point, let's say for example, we're talking we're solid roofs, so so obviously we're talking about the Guardian roofs, and there were a massive seller at the time, and especially the fact that we're we were installing, and then the fact that we started installing two a week, and then it was four a week with two fitting teams. There was a point there where it was like God, the money that's coming in, it's great chaff. We'll run it like this and keep it lean and accept being a one to one and a half million pound turnover company. We'll be earning a hell of a living out of this. Yeah, but it was never about that. It was never about that from day one. Certainly for me, it was always I would say the people around us, the the the business guys around us who'd had businesses 20 odd years, and they were still heavily involved in the business, it's not like they could walk away and let the managers deal with it. Um and I used to think, well, I don't want that. I want I want after 20 years, I want teams in place, I want a business I can sell, I want to be able to if I choose to, or business I can hand over to the to the kids or family members or or even even the management teams themselves, you know, there's MBOs and things like that. I was conscious of all that sort of stuff. Yeah, we took steps where we could have felt a lot better off, but then taking on the expense of a modern manager with a company view or with a modern budget financially to start with, felt like a step backwards. But I know but the way we're going in five years' time, we're probably not not be a lot further forward than where we are. It was kind of a short-term pain for long-term gain mindset. So we would grow a certain amount, starting to feel like we're able to take another step, which might kind of have a negative impact on the profitability for a short period of time. It was always about growth, it was always about progressing. Probably be a good time for for you to come in. I mean, it'd be interesting to hear the the side, bring you in the company, how it was for us to to how it was from your side of things.
SPEAKER_03Definitely, thank you very much for saying good things uh about me so far. Uh I was at a time, at a time I was working for a company called Johnson Press Publishing Group in the UK, and then now they they are JPI Media. Um I was I was supporting the sales teams, but also working with the product team to enable the sales team to sell digital products to the customers, but also working with the product team to come up with better products for the publishing team, to be to to be survival basically, to sustain as as the paper and newspaper they were kind of going redundant. Don't get me wrong, it was a very, very good, uh, very good company and PLC to work with and to work for. I had amazing colleagues. Uh very quickly when I joined, I was at first I joined them as Northeast and then joined the group uh to help across the UK. And I was I remember always I was the the the youngest one in the group and the first day when when when I walked to the room, the the team that we had in Johnson Press, they didn't they didn't think I am who I am. They were expecting at least 45 plus maybe. So that was interesting. I suppose they had the experience, I had the knowledge and technical knowledge, so that really played well. But coming back to how I got to know Jamie and Chris, uh as part of my role, I was uh dual calling and then kind of coaching sales reps on the calls while they were visiting customers, and I got to know, I don't know, I can easily say over thousands of thousands of businesses across the UK. I get to meet meet them and then see their progress over the space of two years or three years of their marketing. But uh I always remember the visits uh that I gave to Premier Roof Systems. Uh it was it was it was an interesting one because I'm a I'm a I'm a people person myself, and then as soon as I met Jamie, uh I'm not sure if the first visit Chris was there or not. I don't think Chris was there. And then when I was chatting to Jamie, I saw a different level of passion, and I saw a different level of genuinity or being genuine. It was so genuine, and I thought, I've met so many businesses, so many, and still haven't seen something like this, especially in this industry, double glazing and all that. That I knew uh they they they're prone to known to be obviously not really good in terms of business practices. So that was that was a very big box stick for me, and I thought, ooh, and then I think the conversation uh Jamie had uh, and then me kind of saying the conflict of interest and not being, I still had it in my mind that maybe one day, if it's meant to he was just a good salesperson, that's what he is. Maybe one day say no, say no, and yeah, I got to a point so fast forward, uh I think the first visit was 2014, and then the second time we met was 2016, I believe. Wow, two years later.
SPEAKER_01Uh even though I had I knew about how they're progressing because I was already See that's the you kept an eye on that's the good things come to those who wait mentality, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_05If we'd have just offered them more money, Jamie would have been twice the size we are now, though. That's the thing.
SPEAKER_03We get to that actually. We get to that. But yeah, so fast forward for me, uh again working for PLC, uh, seeing that I'm gonna I'm gonna say it on this podcast, it's it's the if if anybody got it in themselves to that like to put stamp on things and then make a real difference, unless you've got a very good network and unless you've got a very very good way of selling yourself, whether it be in truth or not, uh PLCs is not for those type of people. They there you're just a number, even though you've got the best idea in the world, even though your impact is phenomenal and unbelievable, still you have to wait days, months, years for something to get somewhere, so for a director to see, and possibly the directors of that they haven't got a clue even about what they sign in or saying yes or no. And that's frustrating. Yeah, that's really frustrating. So I got to a point and I thought it's time for me to look elsewhere. I was thinking about setting up my own marketing agencies. Well, obviously, I had I had visited thousands of thousands of customers, and I had a lot of customers. I would say I have to sell myself, don't I? Like Jamie, uh that the approach and say, Do you want a job or do you want to work with us? And I always knew it's either I'm doing it myself or I'm doing it with someone or a business that I feel closest to. I feel there is a real real passion and there is a real effort there. So yeah, um I put I handed my notice in uh after I spoke to Jamie. It was to me, it was a it was a massive risk because obviously working for them and then my job was secure, basically. You got you got all the things and she bangs you get with the PLC. I'm not gonna get into it. But it wasn't personal. I think that's that's what I wanted bigger. And I started, I started to think about it. What do I want to do? I wanna I I saw I saw joining Premier of Systems and joining uh Jamie and Chris uh a very good challenge for me that I can I can make a lot of changes very quickly. And for me, it wasn't just marketing. To me, I when I joined the business, I looked at every aspect of the business based on my previous experiences that I had. And yeah, but I wouldn't say it was a complete risk because of the fact that I knew these guys and I knew we will always have a sensible conversation if something doesn't work. So yeah, I thought I thought I'll say to Jamie, okay, this is the same thing I to be honest, uh I could have gone triple or quadruple, but I didn't. Uh and I and I and I thought I really want to work with these guys. Uh and I just I was I was so honest with him. I said, This is this is how much I am, let's forget about the bonus side, and then I got a company car, so I think I'm used to it, so I may as well have a company car. I was thinking about going on sites and obviously use that company car, which by the way, I got punctured the first day. I took the company car back home if you guys remember. Uh it was their fault and their factory fault. Nothing, not cleaning the screws of the of the streets, but yeah, it's fine. But yeah, and then the marketing budget. But yeah, that was that was uh I knew they were getting the key to a new factory in where we are actually now. Um so that was exciting. That's exciting, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That was really exciting. From a marketing point of view, that's just like that's cool.
SPEAKER_03You can do yeah, and then and then I I I remember the f well that was that was how the how the beginning, obviously, beginning of me joining Premier and working with Chris and Jamie starts, really. Uh I remember the first day. It was it was almost remember this. I got to work at nine o'clock, I think. It was before nine, and then Jamie was looking at, I mean, this is the first day. And saying, What do you? I think he said, did you stay it's talking to traffic or something? I don't know. He said something that obviously it meant to me that they possibly wanted me to be earlier. Well, and then that's that's okay. So that's something that's the difference between a limited company or a small company to a PLC because there wasn't like any guideline or yeah, said like opening hours. I wasn't ready to show, I was in my head, was a 9 till 5 job, let's say, and I'm marketing, it doesn't matter, I can stay back. And then when they said, Oh, we open 8 and shut at 4:30, and I was like, Oh, shit.
SPEAKER_01So if he'd done his market research, he would have solved open hours on my website.
SPEAKER_04He could change them quite quickly.
SPEAKER_03But to be to be fair, to this business, I think this industry it works well. 8 to 430, it works well uh for for the manufacturing side. I joined the company, it was it was it was a very exciting time. Uh the website was rather appalling and rubbish.
SPEAKER_05Uh the online.com, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03The online presence was absolutely horrendous. There wasn't any proper branding exercise. Uh, and then I I think I started to think and I started to see things first before I do anything. I just wanted to see what approach to take, where they're going, because obviously the business was doing installations, the business was doing manufacturing. Quickly, in my head, it was like bloody hell, conflict of interests. Well, these tradesmen. I mean, I had it from the first day when I joined. Should we separate it? Should we set up a new business for the installation? To be a contractor, should we do this? And then it was just all things popping in my head, knowing the fact that we're gonna go in a in a new building as well. How we can utilize that. But yeah, I just got a very quick start and started building the website. Had had a marketing plan, shared it with uh Jamie and Chris. We we at that period we started to have a lot of regular meetings and that what they want to do, what they want to achieve based from the marketing point of view. Uh of we've been really honest with each other. I told them that it's not gonna happen overnight, it's not gonna happen another three months. Uh, this is this is a the the exercise I'm gonna put in place, it's time-taking, but when it does, it does magic. And I think they got to that point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Am I right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It it pays it paid well waiting for that moment to come. One of the things I always remember, guys, I don't know if Chris and Jamie, you remember, we were launching, we were launching a there were the product was there. Uh it was a roof lantern product. Well, obviously, it wasn't nowhere to be seen, no one knew it, and I was like, Why are we not doing this? And then the uh Jamie and Chris they were thinking about okay, so we need to sell, let's say, five of this a month at minimum, and then let's let's let's and and that was a very specific product-to-market launch campaign. So obviously, I sat with Jamie, I sat with Chris, uh, we had their operations manager, I think, at the time. That I kind of asked him, okay, how many we can make, what's the expectations, can we deliver that nation? And it was just all these questions just thrown between us, and then thinking, well, there is nothing behind it to support this. So there is no logistic thought about it. There is if if if if you quickly get into 10 or 12, what's gonna happen? So we put a program together that this is how we're gonna do it. And I mean, looking at back then, it didn't it didn't take that long, but we were very quickly start churning roof lanterns online, and yeah, it's just started to happen very quickly. I mean, uh, from five a month to to a lot of it now, per month.
SPEAKER_01200 a month at the minute.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, so it's crazy. I mean, I always remember that. I think that was that was it, that was a really nice, specific campaign to see it through. Yeah, and I'm gonna go fast forward to for the for the first two years that I was the marketing manager because there was a lot of hard work. There was a lot of hard work, there was a lot of kind of feeding back to Jamie and Chris about the things that I observe. A lot of observation was going on in the business. Not to not to be not nice to anybody else, but to let's say to share what I thought it was gonna be best practices uh in terms of how to talk to customers, how to represent our sales, how to reply, to be more professional. We need to do this, we need to do that. And so there was a lot of that going on between us three keep keep communicating.
SPEAKER_05And operationally as well, wasn't it? Was slowing things very old-fashioned as you'd expect. Exactly. A business in the 80s to run this. Yeah, and that's kind of when things started to change as when.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. And and and and that's that that was my point. My part because I I knew I wasn't a person just to join a company as a marketing manager and close my eyes on everything else. I knew that. I'm not I'm not that well, they're not paying me for this and that. It's that's not how I know now these guys they don't operate. I I don't operate in that sense. So I I gave it all, I put my kind of heart and soul into it to let's go uh digitalize the business, change the operation, set our duties, and and so on and so forth. So it was it was at the beginning of 2018. I'm I'm sure, I mean, you guys correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure these guys thought, well, at some point, this dude will either ask for a proper pay rise, or at some point this dude will want to go for on another adventure. Uh by the way, I at that time I wasn't thinking about anything, but I was I was getting a lot of nice messages from LinkedIn with with decent salary uh packages, but not to say I was willing to do anything. So it was it was a day again, uh as we do. Uh there wasn't any meeting requests or anything. Jamie and Chris they just turned off uh in the office, and I was just sitting at my desk. As we do things, just as we do things, as we go to things, which it was, I think I would call it right now after 2000 and it's a life-changing event in my life. I think that that has it could have gone a different way if I was if I wasn't gonna be staying with these guys. But yeah, so they came in and I said, What's what do you want to do? I mean, what's your future? Um do you are you enjoying? I'm sure you guys asked me, are you enjoying working with us, working for us? Are you enjoying these places still to this state? And I think my answer was, I love it. I wouldn't even look back, and and I and I love the people here, I love you guys in terms of that we do understand each other, we are people person, we've got our values, we've never ever gone off tangent and like all of a sudden have stupid changes that sometimes business partners do, they completely become uh against doing bit things right sometimes, and and there was never nothing been been like that between us three. And then they said, So, what they did to me still, I say it. I mean, I hope a lot of people say uh hear this, but it was unbelievable to me. It was like, am I am I hearing it right? Or I I don't know. I mean, I don't know, but yeah, they they literally said, We want you to be our business partner. So as soon as as soon as that sentence mentioned, I was thinking, I don't have money. Yeah?
SPEAKER_04To put in, yeah. To put that in.
SPEAKER_03How much do you need? Possibly because I knew the business performance, I had some figures in mind that they're gonna say, yeah. So if if you've got that that much money, which I didn't, I didn't have any savings to be bluntly honest. I don't save. I'm not a saver. Is that Lamborghini though? No, I wish, I wish we will get it, we'll get it. Yeah, if only but yeah, they said they said we want to be a business partner, we want you to be our business. And I was like, how does this work? I said, Well, we always do things equal, but like what? And then they said, Yeah, so uh Jamie was saying it, Chris was saying, I don't want to say you don't want to say, and then I want to feel, and then we are in it together, equal. And I was like, Really? And I thought I can't remember the exact conversation. Did I ask them, do I need to buy it? Or they they kind of said straight away that we're just gonna give it to you, and I was like, Really? This is this is unbelievable. I didn't think I said no, I said yes, and I was like over the moon. But I think when I left and I was driving home, it was still a shock in my system, and my system was telling me, do you not to think about this thoroughly? And the my heart and my saying to my system is what is it about to think about? I was like, is this real? I think that was the real question in my head. Is this is this happening? And then yeah, it happened, and these guys, I put myself in their shoes and they've done the points. I'm really proud of myself that they saw something in me to do that, but at the same time, I honest to God, I think they are very generous about what they did. But here we are, here we are. I think that the this the the the the other part of it was the change of the structure. That was that was a bit uncomfortable for me. For for staff and team. No, just between us three, I think. Between us three, for all of a sudden from a position of them being my boss, and all of a sudden I become a third business partner, and it was like gonna be the so now I'm gonna I'm gonna really go in, I'm gonna really put my words in and then uh say that I really want this to happen rather than I think we should do this. Do you know what I mean? So it was it was keep thinking about, and then I had a lot of plans, and then that would have mean that now I can't even go to the next level, which was setting up the director's responsibilities, setting up teams properly, knowing what the tasks are. Uh that that's when the a lot of the technology we start to introduce to the business, and also I think a year forward I went on an amazing course. Amazing course. Uh Goldman Sachs and Oxford University, they did it together, and then that course helped me to come up with a three-year business growth plan that I shared with these guys. That was another thing that I've noticed within that alumni. A lot of people who were going to that course, they were all struggling with their business partner, and they were so jealous of me that I've got such nice and good business partners. Because whenever we get into Oxford University or uh or we're getting together, they're saying, Oh, my business partner said this is absolutely ridiculous. That spend is not happening. Now, what would you think about this business strategy and this? And I'm like, Oh, you should see Jamie and Chris. We're just so backing up this, and then it's gonna, it's gonna it's gonna go really good. And they're like, How? How well it is what it is. We we know each other, we know what we want to do, and our vision is the same, even though maybe sometimes the way we want to get there is different, but we want to see the same thing. We want to see a valued driven company who's who's just growing every year, non-stop. And wow, I mean, what a what a three year when we set up that uh business plan and we stick we stick with it, we stick with it. We've talked we ticked it and we ticked even more. Uh we ticked even more in terms of the things that we want to achieve. So I'm proud. I'm proud. I'm I'm over the moon with money.
SPEAKER_01The other side of what Poo has just said about being made a partner in the business. From our uh point of view, well obviously we'd see in the way he was working and what he was bringing to the business and what what values are being added. And we're um I mean I don't know if I've even told you this, Pooya, but there was a point where talking about other things between setting up maybe trade counters or other things further down the line, selling bifold doors and what have you, but we're premium roof systems, and obviously we're having conversations with Poo about maybe a rebrand, something that puts it all under one penetration hat kind of thing. And obviously, Pooya was coming up with some some good ideas. And I think we I remember what was me and Puyah was standing in the yard one time and were talking about I'm sure it was trade counters, and you were talking. Was like as if you were part of it, and in my mind, half my brain was saying, You're not a partner, you work for it, but at the same time, the other side my mind was going, You probably would be a good partner, to be fair. And me and Chris, I'd like to think we're not we're not greedy people, and it's not like let's squeeze everything we can out of everything. If there's opportunities for the right people, I think we'll always be happy to providing we're getting something back out of it as well. Um, you know, what we like to see growth, personal growth for people, as especially if it's going to help the company. So I think I said something when I was going saying, Well, how would this work though? Because we're obviously Premier's like a 50-50 thing between me and Chris, but we're talking about these other things, and you're not really a partner. And I think remember you're saying, Well, well, I could be a partner, and I was like, Well, you know, maybe something to think about in the future. And I remember that to this day, and I kind of like planted the seed a little bit. I'm not sure how much time passed in the meantime, but it was actually in this building. I came over when I was talking to Chris about it, and I was saying, look, something kind of like got mentioned, and it's got us thinking, uh, what would you think about? Bring them on as a partner, and not just from a personal point of view, because we liked them and he or because he was doing a good job, because all of us have to do a good job, but what was there was also a business logical reason to it, and it was like, so let's say a third of the company, and there was never really any other percentage discussed. It was like if you're going to bring someone in, what do you do? Offer them five percent. They're never gonna feel like a partner, they're never gonna put in what you put in. And I wouldn't want a partner who doesn't, you know, unless you had a real growth phase and you really needed some finance and someone had the assets that you didn't, but in terms of being still quite a small company, and we're all needing to pull together and we need to be working equally and driven equally to an equal goal, the only thing that made sense was an equal partnership. So that's kind of where the third came from, and then the point about not actually charging them a penny for it. I think we had a discussion with were accountant at the time. Right. Well, accountant, it was it's kind of like a there's a main guy who owns the accountancy that weren't a huge company, but they were a decent size in our area, and then there was people who obviously we would have our point of contact, but once a month we'd sit down with the main guy. So I think we'd had the conversation with one of the ladies who were dealt with and said, This is what we're gonna do. And I think probably the same day we got the phone call from the guy who won the accountancy firm going, Whoa, hang on a minute. Just just I'm just being told what he's thinking of doing. Come and see it straight away. You don't just give a third of your business away, there's other ways to incentivise people. Come on. So um when we sat down and spoke to him a bit, and he he kind of didn't totally say the logic to it. He probably thought it's a nice idea if you just want to be really generous. But from a business point of view, there's probably other ways you can go down this route. And he kind of came up with a number, what that figure might be worth. Do you realise this could be worth this much money if you're gonna sell the share? So just giving it away is a bit kind of like madness for want of a better word. But and it's not that we're we don't listen to professionals who offer advice and all that, but we're just I think me and Chris kind of knew what felt like the right way to do it to in order to get that commitment and to to go down the route that we kind of visioned and and create that path. Um so that's that's kind of how that ended up happening, anyway. Where we'll come down and had the conversation, and I don't know if we're maybe toying with Puyah a little bit by not mentioning that he was going to get it technically for free, but uh it it yeah, so he was obviously a little bit confused about that. But our our thoughts always were we knew what we're earning personally, we knew the sort of money the business what it was making and its profit and losses, and we knew the the avenues we could go down where Puyah would strongly add value to that you might give up if you want to call it give up, you might give up a third of your company, but what you're gonna gain in in one year, in five years, in ten years, and that's was always the mindset of it, and hopefully it's although not ran totally smooth, nothing ever does. I mean, obviously, all the challenges that have come away every business's way lately, but always having the bigger picture in mind, it's definitely not a decision we've regretted.
SPEAKER_04I've never heard of it before, honestly. It's it's it's fantastic. I think more companies could see what you've done and and replicate it. I think there'd be some people that are a lot happier out there, definitely, and they'd work harder and it just all worked, but absolutely baffling, but fantastic. I I congratulate you two for doing it, but also you for showing yourself and what you can do.
SPEAKER_02It's it's interesting.
SPEAKER_05I was gonna say I think we just knew that the company would be better for it in the future, and and you know, it was was a third of the business. But you know, it wasn't a th it was well, it's just under 17% each, isn't it? So it's it's you know you look at it that way, it's well you know, if I give up X amount of these shares, you know, what's what's the long-term benefit of it? And it's and again, it's not only a financial decision, it's I like to surround myself with people that I want to work with. And any company, no matter how big it is, it all you know depends on the people that that got it there and that still work there. So I think we you know we tend to have a lot of it does sound cheesy, but the vision of the values it works. All you know, it's all about respect and you know, treat people as equals. And the the only way we could have done that uh was to was to give pure an equal share. Um and then you know we'll be hopefully hopefully all on the same track.
SPEAKER_04It it reminds me of like cutting off a part of you in order to grow. It's like that kind of sacrifice that not everyone's willing to do that, but you saw beyond that.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, it wasn't anything me and Jamie, and how to do that was something that we put everything into. Yeah. Yeah. Literally everything that we had.
SPEAKER_04That would be a lot easier to do if you were given the business and you uh yeah, I don't feel connected to this. Yeah, you have a completely different. But from the sacrifices that you've heard in this podcast, it's unreal. Absolutely unreal. It says so much about your.
SPEAKER_03I hope, I hope Jamie and Chris saw that. Uh I was when I was marketing manager, I would say they saw that I hard work anyway. But when they when they did this, I I felt something on my shoulder that now I this is beyond. This is I never looked at it as a job before that anyway, but that was beyond because they were so generous. And and again, it was like something on my shoulder that they trusted me this much. Kind of this this can't fail. Exactly going back to what they said at first when they started the business. I felt this can't fail. Now that they've done this, this this has to be has to be successful, and no matter what it takes, it's gonna go on. And I think um it was it was it was it was strange, it was it felt different. So for the for the people out there listening to this, and then obviously Jamie and Chris talking about mindset and then how they sit how they saw things possibly wasn't even in line with their advises, it doesn't mean that they are always right or wrong. What it means is sometimes that decision that you you feel right with it is it could be right, it could be the right decision, and then they didn't look at it financially, they looked at it holistically, they looked at it at every aspect of it. And to me, that was a to me that was that was very, as I said, very generous. So I'm glad, I'm glad that I was given that opportunity, and I'm and I'm glad at least to this state, or I hope to this state that Jamie and Chris say that they never regret it, and then they they can see the the potential and they they they can see that still we we are growing, uh even though we put as much as each other in the business. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I I may put less, but but there is not that kind of that kind of awkwardness between us. We all know in our heart and mind we will we will do everything for this business or for the businesses that we will have or we may acquire in the future. So it's not like our I think our the relationship between us is more than just business partners, and that helps because because you do get businesses. I mean, if you guys want to jump in as well, you we see businesses that they're purely business partners, and then at the end of the day, they just look at the profit, loss, and balance sheet and see if if it's viable. But then also you see this type of business partners, we think we see that, but also we see our own personal lives, and then we see each other's struggle, we care about it, and then I think that that that on its own is very valuable. So a lot of businesses out there, they possibly very quickly judge or misjudge a lot of times the business partners because they don't know really what's going on. Because at the end of the day, as Chris mentioned, although it's business, but it's also personal, but also your personal love can impact the business. And I think we've got that sort of very special relationship that we care about each other so much that we put each other first before the business. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to a personal relationship, and then when we go to business, we always take our hats off being a shareholder or directors and see, okay, so this is the business, this is how it needs to operate, this is the best plan. Then we put our personal hat on back on again to make it a bit more viable and personable, basically.
SPEAKER_04So very powerful.
SPEAKER_03That's that's what that's how I felt. That's how I felt, and it's it's been it's been absolutely phenomenal. The other side of it is that the people that we took on, since I became a business partner, the business grew with extra with extraordinary people. I mean, we've got we've got colleagues, they they they work harder than us. They work harder than us, and the expectation, their expectation is very low. Uh don't get me wrong, business-wise, it's too good for us. But again, these are the kind of things that me and Jamie and Chris would look at and say, it's not fair on that, let's say, specific individual. We need to incentivize. We always want to be, Chris mentioned, Jamie said, we want to surround ourselves with good people. Jamie and Chris, I would say, got the best one in the world. And I would say, I got the best ones in the world too. So so that's that's what we're looking for to to keep to keep growing, and then I've I I will never ever go back and then change anything about this. Absolutely nothing.
SPEAKER_04So, did you ever see this as a risk joining?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Initially, because ultimately, you could have gone and got a job anywhere. With your skills, yeah, and your knowledge and experience, you could have walked out that PLC.
SPEAKER_03Finding a job for me is is easy. I can find a job or I can do freelance and consultancy. I can do it. But that's not what an that's what not keeps me going. That's not what satisfies me. Yeah. What satisfies me the most, let's say on my current situation, is working with Jamie and Chris, and then working on premier roof systems, then I go out another business, working on our next project, and then it's more than just money who you work with or you work for. It's the people that I work with. That that gives it that gives it another level of enjoyment to it that no more no money can buy. Very nice. I'm really I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna just put some I'm not gonna just give some stupid figures here, but uh honestly, honestly, for people out there they think the way I thought these two guys are crazy giving a third of their business to me for not charging me. Yeah, some people think, well, you can I well I can go to London and then get job for I don't know, uh six figure salaries, easy, easy, and then possibly with bonuses, seven figures, honestly. But will I even entertain the idea? Never because I'll make it with these guys, I'll make seven and eight figures with these guys. So it's not that I've been, I mean, if I was stupid, not taking the risk, or if these guys, everybody advisors say, Oh, you're paying this marketing manager or you're giving a business, that's not financially viable, would have been being sitting here, we wouldn't have. And then all of us three saying we wouldn't have changed it with anything. So I think that's powerful, to be honest.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, just to give everybody a bit of a background about myself, uh I'm originally from Iran, and that's where I went to school, and I left my country to study uh in Malaysia, and I got my IT degree uh because I always wanted to study in English, and basically that was the reason I left uh Iran to go to Malaysia, and then after that, I started to apply for master's degree in different parts of the world from Canada, Sweden, anywhere that I had friends and family basically, United Kingdom, uh Australia, um, and then yeah, I ended up to be in the UK. So worked for worked for I would say maybe three or four companies before I joined uh Johnson Press. Uh the the the the last company I worked before joining the PLC was a charity organization in Newcastle. And I would say, I would say that that experience, that experience for me, it was very, very powerful. It was working in the heart of the community, and then again, it was something that well the for the people who are listening to me now, especially people who I worked for Kirsty, Shuly, and um Sarah, uh after all, they they possibly know how much I was earning. So it was it was nothing, absolutely nothing, and the amount of uh uh energy I was putting into that uh role it was amazing. But again, because that was the sense of people and not being about the money. But yeah, fast forward I joined the PLC and it was it was crazy because uh it was a different environment. I mean, I I used to work for bigger companies prior to the charity, and then I went to a charity organization and come back to another huge field. I mean, this was the one of the biggest PLC I worked for, Johnson Press. It was over, I don't know, over five or ten thousand staff and over 242 news titles across the country with Yorkshire Post, uh Scotsman, uh, an i newspaper that they purchased, being the Sonder and Echo in Local and Hollypool Mail. So it was it was interesting. It was interesting. But my I did I did a lot of I did a lot of short management courses and business management courses, but also I did a lot of very specific marketing courses, uh, because as we all know, a lot of marketing agencies out there, they think uh there is only one thing to marketing or two things, they think social media or SEO or website development is marketing, but they forget the essence of marketing. The essence of marketing is actually who you are and how you add value, and they think because there are a few just uh technical SEO they do, and then the website pops up, that's it, job done. It's it's experience. Jamie mentioned a very good thing earlier. And Jamie got a very good and Chris very good understanding of marketing because it's not about it's not about having a nice website, nice ad word in the paper. It's not about how much you spend on Google AdWords, let's say. It's a lot more than that. I think marketing is about how you present yourself. And that means everything. Everything you go and show from your product, your customer experience, your service, your reviews, your website, your social media, your how you how you engage with people. So I've done a lot of business management and marketing with my IT background, that helped me quite a lot being a bit techie and writing codes. So, and then the PLC helped me to develop the strategic side of my skill set to put it into practice. Uh so that's my background, and then joining these guys as marketing manager, that was that was phenomenal. Got to be able to put all those skill sets into use in one place, yeah, and yeah, and that was phenomenal.
SPEAKER_04Do you think that your experience at the PLC, not your advice, your wisdom falling on deaf ears, so we say at times, is what keeps you from you know, I know you're part of the company now, but there was a time when you would, and seven figures can be quite attractive. But is there a part of you that think I'm just gonna go back and be a number? I don't want that. I want to be listened to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I want to build something. 100%. I I've when I made my decision that I'm gonna leave for good, I will never ever look back that sort of type of work line where you're just a number. I knew that, I knew that, and then and then even if it means God forbid, even if it means something happens to this business or our businesses, I will I will never ever go back. I will try something from scratch, work hard, and then put my own stamp on. I'll never ever go back to the the the corporate world as such. I will I will work with them, I won't work for them.
SPEAKER_04Well, to me, it just it compares to a family business. That's how you see it. It's not about the money, it's about building something and working together, and it's it's just a different level.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, yeah, no, no, that's that's good. I mean, if if anybody out there wants to offer me a seven-figure salary, I'll be gone to the new CM boards, but these guys will not see us again.
SPEAKER_06Wow, you want to be so disappointed.
SPEAKER_04So disappointed a window with a view and seven figures, and he's yours. So on that note, next step is that where classic comes in. Yes, yeah, the acquisition from hell.
SPEAKER_01It's going back to part of that growth plan that we're put in place, and yeah, acquisitions were kind of what there were uh an option, there were a thought, exactly a possibility. Whether or not that was ever going to become a reality was was two totally different things.
SPEAKER_05I mean as Jamie said, um we'd spoke about it. It was Jamie who engaged in the conversation with the old business owners as it happens. They did used to be a customer of ours. We didn't do a lot of trade together, just bits and pieces, and uh you know it was the same kind of setup what me and Jamie had, but uh one that had stagnated for a lot of years, um was pretty static. Did the same thing year on, year in, year out. Two business partners who didn't really see eye to eye anymore, um and just had an iron retirement and there was no succession plan, um there was no management buyout or anything on the table. So um and you know, really if you think about it, we uh well we didn't double in size, but we significantly we we grew quite a lot just by acquiring classic windows. So the company went from turning over under four million to probably over six million within the space of twelve months, if you combine the two together. And I think we started off with with pocket change. Um sometimes think, well, how how did we get here? Uh but we hear, and that's the main thing, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02We're here, we we we we hear and we'll stay here strong, won't we? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I just think I mean it's if what we did is is very specific, premier roof systems and what we supply. Um you know, I th I we we I think the windows, the manufacturer and having control over that, which was the main thing, uh, was is a fantastic ball under what we already do. Because we you know, we did get asked a lot, you wouldn't think so. Premier roof systems did supply windows. Well, actually, we do supply windows. Um we do get a lot of cross cross company selling, so strategically it was a good thing to complement it well, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. And and obviously not only that, it's the products we can add to classic windows, such as biphone doors, which we've just started manufacturing as well.
SPEAKER_04Which uh did they hear it here first?
SPEAKER_05No, no, even though it's there, we're not doing it for a little while, um and that was kind of under the radar because I didn't think Jamie really knew that we'd start manufacturing.
SPEAKER_01I didn't even get time to overthink on that one. I just turned up one day and I was like, What's that van doing outside our window company? Because we don't even make aluminium bifolds. Just went, Oh there was there was something I was meaning to tell you. And there you go, there's guys standing making aluminium bifolds and just like right.
SPEAKER_04You said them a fax, didn't you? That's what it was.
SPEAKER_05Well, that's that's me all over. Um, I'm the only worst enemy sometimes though. But yeah, uh no regrets, no regrets for the acquisition. All I would say is that we would have probably done things a lot different. Um, and it was a brand new experience to us. This was going on through lockdown. We all had a lot of time on our hands, or some of it anyway, and you know, the the pages and pages and pages of of legal due diligence, financial due diligence, heads of terms and things like that. It was just mind-boggling, and then you'd be a loggerheads about certain things, and you you think that's it, deals off kind of thing, and then you know, you'd you'd you'd put your emotions aside, think business. Um, but that was that was an ordeal in itself, really. Just getting over the line.
SPEAKER_03Um to add to all those difficulties, think about coronavirus period, yeah, think about Brexit on Brexit uncertainty, yeah, and then having to acquire a business. That it was it was just the industry was it was yeah, it was booming.
SPEAKER_05It was unprecedented, yeah. But the supply issues as well, we had hell with it. I had hell with it. Um six months of torture, I think. Probably more than that, actually, because I'm still I'm still not over it. I'm mentally square.
SPEAKER_03That's another one. I yeah. That's that's that's the specific.
SPEAKER_05I mean, if if you look at it now on the whole, there's the three of us together, you know, we've got a strong partnership. We've got I'm gonna say the best team, we're gonna have our squad behind us. Um and you know, we'll have settled down, and this is the kind of year where we push on it, we expand and take it to another level.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, as good as that. So on that note, the two questions that I do usually ask in every podcast was there a low point in all of this? And I don't know whether you want to do this individually or uh collectively, there was a low point. And then we finished on the high point, so we leave it on a high.
SPEAKER_05Well, I'm talking about the the full journey.
SPEAKER_04Full, full journey. So I mean that could be before Puya or or I mean, well, there has there's been times where you were the high.
SPEAKER_05Aye, where was the high?
SPEAKER_00Some of these low points can be very deep, you know.
SPEAKER_05Well, the half I mean there's there's times me and Jamie, uh I know this is going on on a podcast, but we've literally stood in the yard and said, Well, I haven't got money for wages, what do we do? kind of thing. And and those were the low points you think after all this hard work. Um it it's cash flow's always a challenge, especially with with our industry, and and you run accounts and things like that. Some customers have what you'll call a 30-day and a month account, and it's it's just hard to manage, especially in our younger days when we didn't really weren't business savvy about it. Um and and and again, yeah, I I think the low points were probably times like that. But I think for me the low point was was probably in the heart of this is when I when I moved over at Classic Windows, the first I would say the first six months of it was probably the lowest point in in 11 years. Um when you think, what have I done? What have we done? What a mistake. But then, you know, you just keep on working at it, stay positive, try to stay positive anyway, it doesn't always work. But I think just just like I say, I've you know, I'm I'm one of them kind of people that I don't I don't discuss my problems, I don't share my problems, I bottle them up anyway. But I I I've always knew that I've had support there, I'm just too stubborn to ask for it. So so yeah, I mean I would say that the low point had been not long after the acquisition because that was kind of my my role was to move over to the other company, shadow the MD, and and work out how the business ran, how it could improve it. And uh it it was just tough. It was like I say, the the supply issues that were had, the workload, as well as trying to get a business that was it was a time warp, it was like going back into the 80s, everything was posted and all to whiteboards, no technology whatsoever, trying to implement that while you you're working with the old MD, some you know young kid walks in and says, right, I own the place now, and this is how we're going to do things. It's it it was yeah, it was tough. But here we are today.
SPEAKER_04Just uh while you're on that, who how did it how did you decide that it would be you that went over? Is it because of your experience with manufacturing before?
SPEAKER_05Probably because I was more familiar with the windows than than I mean Jamie was a fabricator himself, but I think I was still manufacturing windows while Jamie went over onto the roof side of it. Um and and you know, I'm I'm gonna say this. I I like to take a lot on. I feel like I can cope with pressure quite well, um, and you know, it probably logically was was the right thing to do. Um yeah, I mean, yeah, I I still I wouldn't change it. It's been hard. It was probably like I say probably the low point, but I feel like you know it's a lot better now.
SPEAKER_04The other side to it though, how would you have felt if you'd watched say Jamie or Puyo in that position? Would you rather it sort of be you and go through all that? Yeah, I would. I wouldn't change it. That's a strong partnership, you don't get that very often.
SPEAKER_05Honestly, there's times I mean I'm there's times I was I felt like I'd just gone back ten years, back to starting all over again and putting in silly shifts, not going home on a night and things like that. But at the same time, I would convince myself that why I was doing it, what it was for. It was all part of the bigger picture, and uh it kept us going really. I wouldn't I again it it's I look back on some of it and and I enjoyed it. It was a big challenge and it you know, it was it was enjoyable as well as kind of hellish as well. I I'm trying to the the thing is with it, it's it's hard to put it into words. Yeah. Sometimes I would get in the car, it's about a 45 minute drive from where I live. And you know, it would just be if you've ever been anywhere that you I'm trying to explain, I'm trying, I want to put it into words. I really don't want to go there. There's been you must have been in jobs or situations before you where you just think, I just want to get out of here. I would say every day for a solid two or three months driving there was was that feeling, it was the the the sickness that I just don't want to go there. And it it's it's hard, it's hard to be optimistic in that position when you you're driving somewhere every day that you don't want to go to. But yeah, I did. I kept on it, I kept at it. And this is probably for another podcast anyway. Yeah, but um yeah, but yeah, it worked, it's it's we're still you know, it's still it still needs a lot of work, it still needs refining, there's there's lots to do. Um, but you know, we're a lot more comfortable now and it's a lot more settled. Nice, nice.
SPEAKER_01That was nice and depressing that wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03Well, you did ask about the low points next. I don't mind what I was saying, I won't get into it that much.
SPEAKER_04You did ask about the low points, so it's important because people people can relate to that. I think it's good.
SPEAKER_02I think it's good to be open and share.
SPEAKER_05They want to see this is what I was saying earlier. I said to Richard earlier that sometimes if you ask us questions, be careful what you ask because I'll tell you what I think. No, that's why sometimes I say too much.
SPEAKER_04Well, I might say too much, I'll just be honest. Because there's people, picture it this way, there's people doing that drive. They did it this morning. Of course, there's and they're they're driving back tomorrow.
SPEAKER_05I think it happened. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I suppose all of you they just want to work here now. A quarter of the company, please. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Obviously, the full 11 years has had a lot of ups and downs anyway, so I could probably pick a few, but some of that sticks in my mind was not not so much an individual moment, but was like a period of time, yeah, in terms of the low point. It was probably it was probably I would see maybe about nine months in from having the business. And you you can you can go from not earning any money, I mean we're claiming whatever benefits we are entitled to to to top up things to keep food on the the plate in the house, but there was a certain period of time where we still weren't really earning, and I know there's more to life than money, but it is important to be able to put food on the table and pay your bills, and it was actually getting that point where that was hard, it was like a genuine challenge, and I'd never been in that in my life. I never came up from a wealthy background or anything very work-class, but still, you never wondered how am I going to get the shopping this week. And like I say, there was a period.
SPEAKER_05It's part of the pressure, isn't it? Because we knew we had nothing to fall back on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was that was it. And there was probably, I would say, maybe a month to six weeks where it was really tough. Um, and there was a couple of incidents, and they probably happened quite close succession, and it was kind of like getting knocked down, trying to get yourself back up and getting knocked down. I mean, they might sound like trivial examples, but I remember I remember having to look at me my bills in the house and obviously sensibly having to prioritize and looking at what was coming in and going, Well, I'm just gonna have to not pay that, I'm just gonna have to not pay me council tax because it's more important that I pay me gas and electric. And making them sort of decisions was hard enough, but then when the letter comes through the door from the council, for example, let's say you're in a Riaz, and then the next then the warning letter comes through from someone chasing the debt, and you're generally sitting in the house looking at your family thinking, I'm trying my best, yeah. It's like in and so there's a situation like that, and then like I say, struggling with with the shopping every week, and I I remember one time pulling a um at a car garage or put a fuel in my car, and getting there, and obviously went to pay by card and realised there wasn't enough money in the bank. And obviously, I had to I remember it was a dark night, it wasn't the middle of the night or anything, but let's say, let's say eight, nine o'clock, and uh obviously I had to say to the person behind the counter, you're gonna have to bear with us, I'm gonna have to see if I can phone somewhere to come down with some money. Um, and I just remember going out with my car into the and pulling into a place where you could park, like, and uh I could have cried my head out. I was just sitting there thinking this is so hard, like I've absolutely had enough, and I think I ended up ringing Chris, and Chris was even worse off because he didn't even have a van, didn't have a car, sorry, so he had to he had to drive down the meetings in the work van with whatever money he had, just so I could pay for the funeral of my car for for however long that was gonna last. And and I suppose I can talk about the the low points and the high points at this in the same in the same comment, same example because it's things like that having someone who you can ring. Yeah, I know my mum and dad were never well off at anything, but I remember my mum knowing I was struggling and just turning up my house one day with a bag of shopping, it might have only been like the cheapest stuff, but it was like, look, uh, I can't see you worth nothing, it might have been 20 quids worth of shopping, but that was like that, me was like this is small gestures, or the lows and the highs are so closely linked. And and and me wife's parents, I remember, because I had the problem with the paying the council tax. And I remember them just turning up at the the factory one day, and they came with a bit of money for us and went, Look it, you know, we've managed to get that together, you know, go and sort the council payment out. You don't want bailiffs turning up your door and things like that, and stick out of Jamie, and you're doing well, and all this sacrifice or payoff in the future. So that in itself was like small gestures, but the absolute highlights and things that looking back now seem like small struggles. It was was going through a hard time just made it so much harder, and yeah, that would probably be my experiences.
SPEAKER_04Wow, yeah. Wow, this could be the first podcast that people cry listening to. I was moving with that moment. I was thinking, yeah, oh, just but just having Chris to call is the it's like knowing who to call. That's the the biggest thing. And I was sort of thinking, who would I call? And you know, it goes off for your head.
SPEAKER_01We had a night who am I going to call? The one person who's got as little as me. Put it into one person who would understand it. I think with a pride thing as well. Yeah, put it together. Even though I could, I'm not gonna bring your parents or your brother and my sister and go, I'm absolutely fucked here for money. Like, I need help, because then everyone in the family knows, and it's like a pride thing, and people are saying, Oh, what an exciting journey on. He's building a business, he's oh, he's got a van and everything, man. He's doing good, and a factory one, and then two members of stuff, and everyone just sees the what that that side of it, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I mean, even now, you you know, you see a factory full of people, and everybody thinks these guys must be right and then they've made it.
SPEAKER_04If only they knew they knew what so my wife's got a tea room, and one of her um her team turned to her at the weekend and she said, Did you know if you own a business, your class is middle class? She said, I really don't think that's the case. It's just not like that, it's not as simple as that. And that was the baffling statistic that blew my mind that weekend that that's what people think. And they don't see any of this that goes into it.
SPEAKER_05I think I remember I don't I do Jamie, you'll probably remember it as well. I ended up I never do this, I've never done before in my life, but I remember exactly what you're gonna say, because it was exactly that period of time. Um I was listening to the radio one day and they were talking about the breadline and people living in poverty, and some guy in the radio said that there was no such thing as poverty, and that people you know they they've they've got l plasma t TVs on the wall, they go on three holidays a year and they class that as poverty. And I and I had to phone in and basically, you know, to tell them that for some people a life is i is a real struggle and it was self-inflicted, yeah. We we took the choice to do that, made the choice to do that, but at the same time, you know, we didn't do it just you know because we're two idiots. We were working working on something, you know, that that was gonna be a big part of our future. You know, hopefully that we can pass on. And yeah, uh Dan Brophy, that was the guy's name, or he actually gave us he actually rang us up. He I don't know. Um he must have gotten me a number off the radio. Off the radio. And what what was the company called? I can remember. It was some he couldn't help us anyway, but he he just really he must have been listening to the radio at the time and listening to the story and thought Christ, um I'm going to give this guy a ring to see if he's okay. Uh but I it was that long ago, I can't remember a lot about it. It just popped into my head when Jamie was talking earlier.
SPEAKER_01The amazing thing about it was it was Chris was compelled to phone in to say to this guy who was saying people talk about poverty, but they can still afford to get the drink every weekend, they can still afford the tabs and this and that, and we knew what we were going through. And so Chris said, Look, there's people really trying, but for other reasons are struggling. Um, and either that the guy you're talking about, he was a he's like a business advisor or like something like that was along those lines. But he got in touch anyway through through the radio Newcastle, yeah, and ran you and says, Look, you know, do you want to come round and and meet up with us and discuss your business and try and help you in whatever way I can and just kind of gave you a lot of business advice and things like that, didn't he? It was just like a nice gesture from a student which yeah, aye.
SPEAKER_05He was called Dan Brophy, and I can't remember the company he was from now, but I just thought it was up on LinkedIn now. Aye, I thought it was really nice of him to do.
SPEAKER_04And then he gave you a check for a hundred thousand. And the rest is history, there you go. Also, what I wanted to say on that point though, thinking about it, is that when you were saying about the success of the business and you've got a van and stuff like that. I mean, the way you started is so refreshing in a way because it's very easy. You could have gone like, I know you couldn't physically, but if there was an option for you to borrow 50,000, 100,000, kit out the factory how you wanted, and absolutely finance it to the technically, you might not be making money on paper still, but people just associate a brand new van. They think you know it could be leased, whatever it is, they just they see those physical assets and think you're doing well. And realistically, you know, you were probably better off than some of the companies out there that have brand new vans because you own that van and you were driving it and you you earned that money that was going into that fuel.
SPEAKER_05I mean, that was it it took, I would say, was it was it about three years before I actually really even started earning money properly? And you know, I'm not gonna say big money because it certainly wasn't, but it was it was a steady wage, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01It took probably two complete years before we're on the equivalent of a minimum wage. Yeah. Because the way we did it was we're we wouldn't have a good month and then take a certain amount out when new would gradually build it, so and it was weekly pay at the time. So I think after about six months of earning zero.
SPEAKER_05But we had we had a member of staff that we were paying wages and we weren't earning.
SPEAKER_01Uh, it's just the first big step was paying ourselves £50 a week each, and then a few months later, probably up that to £100 a week each, and then it gradually built it, literally built in £50 per week increments until we got to about three minimum wage, and then we're like, right, now we're kind of normal, we're doing what normal people are doing, we're not like totally poor anymore, and they're slowly kind of building from there, really.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, see, I think it's important, and I've said this multiple times on this podcast, but I I want people to realise and I want the youngsters and the generations of insta-I was just set up an Instagram account, we've got a business, and we're off. That they don't see these sacrifices that were made, and I know it's a different time, it's like buying a house is a completely different time to it was back then, but it's it's somewhat relative, you know. At the same wages are linked, and I know we can get into it, but a lot of people forget about the time it takes and the sacrifices because if you said to someone, you can have your own business tomorrow, but you're not gonna get it paid and you're gonna work harder than you ever have before for the next three years before you even see what you're earning now in the job that you hate. People might look at it differently, and that they sort of say, I know not for that, I'm happy doing the job, or you know, I want my weekends. They just don't see it, and that's part of the reason why on this podcast we do talk to a lot of business owners, they share their sacrifices.
SPEAKER_05I think we did choose a diff a difficult industry as well, the manufacturing industry. It's I think that added to the complexity of it, but at the same time, you know, every business has to operate. There has to be somebody there to put the work in, put the time in, and you have to earn a wage, you've got to earn a living somehow, and uh we just didn't. It took us three years to earn a living. Any regrets? Do you think you should have gone into fruit and veg?
SPEAKER_01Probably would have been a lot healthier.
SPEAKER_05But it was, wasn't it? It was what was it with fruit and veg? We thought we'd do start boxing promotions and all that because obviously my background in boxing, I thought we'll we'll put some put some events on.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna make garden sheds. I yeah, garden sheds.
SPEAKER_04Um you still didn't go to a good position to do that at the factory. Uh BBC garden sheds.
SPEAKER_05I think there was something. There was probably half a dozen other things as well.
SPEAKER_03For me, the the business itself, even at the most difficult point at it point for the business, I would say, I would say one of the most difficult points for the business was when Corona hit. That was that was just to me, I don't know if for you guys, but shutting the business down and dealing with the everything that none of the employees can ever imagine of sitting in the house and then waiting for the wage. And thank God at some point fairload did kick in. But for us, I think that was just unbearable. It was it was over it was overwhelming what's gonna happen. But we didn't even say that that was a low low point of my my life. Uh over the last past two years, I've been through quite a lot and a lot of how can I say a lot of um incidents and um things happened in my personal life that didn't help me to be the person that I want to be at workplace and then in the business, even though I tried my best and obviously trying, but there are there are things that happen seriously, and I and I and I say this to a lot of people hearing this out there, uh you kind of need to be not that I'm stone or strong enough, but you got to have something in you to be able to pull yourself out sometimes from your low points. And I think, yeah, last two years of the business because I've been hit with so many personal issues and then losing loved ones and one. After the other under different circumstances, it was just unbelievable and unbearable. But having said that, going from that to have Chris and Jamie as your business partners, to the point that sometimes you can open up to people. Not that I don't want to open up to them, but sometimes you just want to hide away and then just be somewhere that no one can see you, no one talks to you. But I I I really thank them too for being there because I always felt uh I would I would share things with them that I wouldn't share share the thoughts or feelings with my family with my uh with my closest people in life, I wouldn't, but I would share it with them, and then I kind of communicate with them, and then the the fact that they the fact that they answered, the fact that they kind of they've been patient with me, but also because you know we put two perspectives at it, is one is the business side, we are business partners, we want to put everything together, and then we want to be in it together, but then when each of us get hit by personal problems, and then it takes the ability away to be fully on board, then that's so important to have the good people as your business partners because if you don't have that comfort, then you you're gone, you're lost, then you've got nothing basically, because especially if your whole life is a business, is your involvement. So, but yeah, I think that that was the best thing to have Jamie and Chris. Um I mean, in the podcast of uh everyone's hearing this podcast, definitely wait for that one to hear uh Chris's drama while we took on Classic Windows. I mean, Chris is very again generous that not mentioning to that. I had to go with Chris when we acquired classic. Uh I meant to be a big part of it, but I just couldn't. So I left Chris on his own to deal with. Uh and I think the hell that Chris is talking about would have been slightly less if I was there and if I was able to be exactly the plan we set out for me and Chris to be there. But yeah, I just I wasn't there. So it was it was pretty difficult. So I would say that was my low point, the personal stuff that happened. Uh but then again, Jamie mentioned those low and high, how they can reach to each other so quickly, and then having the having the knowledge that Chris and Jamie's over there, you can sometimes get a breathing and then come back and then say, pick up guys. And I'm I'm so comfortable with them. I've I've I've open up to them. I open we open up to each other. You know, we talk to each other about our personal life, but also business all the time. And it was the end of last year when we sat down, I think it was the last board meeting, and then after that, I just started to to kind of apologize to them for the for the year, uh, for the time that I wasn't as much as they but again. I I saw I saw nothing but just support. And that that to me not just not just helps for me to be relaxed, but also it empowers me to wanted to do more now. And and that's that's crazy. I mean, I'm I'm in a very, I wouldn't say I'm in a I'm in my best shape, but I'm in a in a good place with good support. And we I I would say this year so far we're smashing it. We're smashing it. We're getting over the hurdle of acquisition. We we we're becoming more stabilized across the two companies, and then I can see, I can see again the that that light at the end of the tunnel. And I think in the in the in business and personal life, you have to always have that passion, vision, but also you have to have a meaning to work for hard for it. But sometimes the meaning is just right next to you. Do you know what I mean? People always look at the end and then think, oh, the meaning is I sell a business for 100 million and I I become retired, but then we forget freaking hell. The meaning is just sitting next to you. That's what you need to live for. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and that's that's what I've learned in the last two years. And uh yeah, it gives me it gives me the power to keep going, looking at every day, and then just stick to the to what we started.
SPEAKER_04Perfect. That seems like a good place to leave it. Would you agree? Yeah, leave it on a high. Yeah, thank you very much for your time today, gentlemen. Thank you. And uh, well, we look forward to speaking to you on the next podcast. Yeah, we'll have to do this again.
SPEAKER_05Maybe we'll be a little bit better at it next time.
SPEAKER_04I think you're brilliant.
SPEAKER_05So, yeah, don't worry about that.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, thank you very much for your time. No problem. Thank you very much. That was a fantastic episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you'd like to hear more episodes like this one, consider subscribing. Otherwise, thank you for listening until next time.
