Rural Schools Matter: The community and economic impact of public schools in rural communities | Mara Tieken, author & educator

This episode is sponsored by New Hampshire’s Monadnock Region. Home to five state parks, thousands of acres of pristine lakes, a flourishing arts scene, and Mount Monadnock, the most climbed mountain the U.S. Natural beauty and bustling downtowns await, just a two-hour drive from Boston. Every Urban Exodus begins with an urban escape, and yours is Within Thriving Distance. Visit MonadnockNH.com today.

I am excited to invite you to my conversation with Mara Tiekan. Mara is an Associate Professor of Education at Bates College.  Her writing and research focuses on racial and educational equity in rural America. Her book, Why Rural Schools Matter, is an ethnographic study of two rural Arkansas communities that examines the roles that schools play in rural towns. 

Mara’s interest in rural education began while working for a small school in Tennessee. There, she was able to witness first hand the experience of a struggling rural public school, but also the school’s integral place in the community. She noticed that unique issues regarding rural education were often overlooked in political reform, and education research and schooling. 

In our conversation we speak about the impacts of school closures and consolidations in rural America, how rural schools have weathered Covid, the lasting ramifications of segregation and discrimination in public schooling, the blind spots that legislatures have when it comes to rural education and funding, the economic and social value of public schools in rural communities, and why everyone should be paying attention to the issues facing rural education.

Mara's work has been published in the Review of Educational Research, Harvard Educational Review, American Educational Research Journal, Peabody Journal of Education, and Sociological Focus.

Transcript

Alissa Hessler: 0:00

This episode is sponsored by New Hampshire's Monadnock region, home of five state parks 1000s of acres of pristine lakes, a flourishing art scene and Mount Monadnock. The most climbed mountain in the United States, natural beauty and bustling downtown's await. Located just a two hour drive from Boston. Every urban Exodus begins with an urban escape. And yours is within thriving distance. Visit monad NOC n h.com Today, that's mo N ad, and Ock and h.com.

Mara Tieken: 0:41

Public Schools is sort of the lifeblood of our democracy. I mean, they accept all so it's a reflection of the community as it actually is. And if you want to be a part of that community, like being a part of that public school system is probably the best way to do that.

Alissa Hessler: 0:58

Have you ever dreamed of making a radical shift? What does it take to build a more intentional life? What is gained from reconnecting with yourself with community and with the natural world? I'm Alissa Hessler. I've spent the last decade meeting with people all over the world who have made remarkable transitions in their lives. How do they do it? What did they sacrifice? What have they learned? Stepping away from convention isn't easy. But we all have the power to reclaim the things that we've lost, to slow down to change course, to create the life we want for ourselves and for future generations. The urban Exodus podcast shares, practical advice, and inspirational words to embolden and guide you on your own journey. These are the stories of those brave enough to venture down the road less traveled. This is the urban Exodus. Urban Exodus is community supported programming, please consider sponsoring an episode or making a contribution so we can keep these conversations going. The easiest way to contribute is to click the support button on the top of urban exodus.com. You can also become a member of the urban Exodus community to peruse our archives of hundreds of photos, stories and interviews of people who left city life or subscribe to Apple podcasts premium to have access to bonus episodes, or rapid fire interviews with guests and our new mini podcast ditch the city where I answer listeners questions and offer practical advice on a whole myriad of topics. If you have a question for an upcoming episode that you'd like us to consider, please send us a DM on Instagram, or through our contact us page. Thank you for helping me continue to do this work. I couldn't do it without all of you. And if you haven't already, we would really love it if you'd leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or whatever service you listen on. And please recommend urban exodus to your friends. I'm excited to invite you to my conversation with Mara Tekin. Mara is a professor, author and expert on Rural Education. Her book why Rural Schools Matter is an ethnographic study of two rural Arkansas communities that examines the roles that schools play in rural towns. Mara is currently working on two new research projects, one that examines the college experiences of rural first generation students, and another that examines the impact of school closures on predominantly black rural communities. Mauro also studies the effects of Community Organizing for Education Reform. In our conversation, we speak about the impacts of school closures and consolidations in rural America, how rural schools have weathered COVID The lasting ramifications of segregation and discrimination in public schooling, the blind spots that legislatures have when it comes to rural education and funding the economic and social value of public schools and rural communities and why everyone should be paying attention to the issues facing rural education. Okay, so I'm really excited to have on the podcast today, Laura Tikkun Mara has been studying rural schools for most of her career. She is an associate professor of education at Bates College in Maine. She is also a main transplant like myself, she moved here from Georgia. But first off, it's a thrill to have you on the show because you have just done so much research on rural schools and your book why Rural Schools Matter. really resonated with me as someone that's traveled across the US and as seen how different rural communities are in every place around the country. And I think we kind of look at rural as this monolith in news media, and I really appreciated your work. So I'm excited to have you on the show Maura. First off, I'd love if you would share just a little bit of your personal backstory, where you grew up, and the paths that you've taken that have led you to where you are now,

Unknown: 5:26

thank you so much for inviting me, I'm really looking forward to our conversation. I did not grow up in a rural place. I grew up as born in Pennsylvania, I lived there for a couple years, and Connecticut for a couple more. And then we moved down south when I was seven. And we moved to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, which was a huge change from Connecticut. And then I went to middle and high school in Georgia. So kind of moved around a lot, mostly suburban kind of places. But I think through that experience, I began to understand, like at a very young age, just how different schooling can be depending on where you are. And so I think that's probably what like first led to my interest and you know, this like connection between place and education. So then I went to college, up north in New England in a pretty rural place. And I took a class on education and just fell in love with it. And I am someone who I just remember sitting in my high school English class and looking at my high school English teacher and just being like, oh my god, I can't imagine like how this woman does this every day, like, what an awful awful job to stand up in front of people and just like talk all the time. And I was just like, wow, it's a terrible job. Then I took this class on education in college and fell in love with it and really begin to think like much more critically like about schools about how they're structured about, you know, who gets a quote, unquote, good education, how do we even define good education. And so that's really what got me into like the education space. And I ended up deciding that I wanted to get certified as a teacher. So I got my teaching license as an undergraduate. And I was at my student teaching in a really small rural school in Vermont, during that I was really struck by how I'm teaching this small rural community, this, you know, small, rural Elementary School, and the school is like, so clearly, like, absolutely critical to the community. It's just like the, the sort of the center of everything in the community. Yet, everything I was learning about in my college classroom was about urban education. And it which was even just kind of ironic, given that we're sitting there in a very rural place. So all we're talking about as urban schools, or kind of like this sort of default kind of suburban school. And like that paradox, like you know how critically important schools were in rural places yet, like no one seems to be talking about them or thinking about them. That's what led me to really be interested in Rural Education, specifically, after kind of a did not feel ready to have my own classroom. So I spent another year getting a lot more training. And then I moved to rural Tennessee, I taught third grade, in vanleer, Tennessee, which is about an hour west of Nashville, and loved it love my students love being in a rural community. And that's not to say the school was perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I just loved being in a place where like, that connection between school and community was so palpable, you know, and I was surrounded by a lot of people that were really trying to do the best they could, in a place that like really didn't have a lot of resources. It was a low income community that didn't have a lot of taxpayer funding going towards education. And so like that experience was really I love teaching. But I was really interested in kind of thinking a little bit more on a macro level about, you know, rural schools, the kind of funding situations they find themselves in this relationship between school and community. And so that brought me back to graduate school. And I've been studying rural schools and working with rural communities ever since.

Alissa Hessler: 9:00

Well, it seems like you know, really the roots for it, like the seed that was planted was your own experience as a child traveling around and going to these different schools. I'd love for you just share a little bit about the stark differences that you noticed in public schools that you attended, and maybe any advice you would give to parents or kids on ways to adapt or thrive or even survive in a new environment in a new school system, because I think a lot of people are moving around like there's a lot of migration happening in the United States right now. Some of its climate related even some of its COVID related some of its just trying to find a place to be able to work and thrive. And any advice from your own experience that you would give to parents and kids that find themselves in a new environment that way? That's a

Unknown: 9:48

great question. So So and actually, so when I was in Connecticut, I attended a public school and then when we moved to Georgia to Louisiana, attended a private school and then we moved to Georgia. I attended a public school So it's also switching between public and private, through there as well. And I think one piece of advice, well, the first thing I'll say it, like, I think, moving from Connecticut to Louisiana was just I mean, I might as edit and my mother still says, it's like, you might as well have been from Mars, like, it was just so different. I mean, I was the new kid. And I think even by the time I left, that school, I was still seen as a new kid. This was like a teeny, tiny school. And it was the kind of place where, you know, kids often stayed, you know, K through 12. I mean, and just in terms of the differences, I mean, we were learning different things like the curriculum was like I moved mid year to so the, you know, the curriculum was totally different. The subjects were totally different. For me, when one really strange thing was in Connecticut, the school, you know, all the classrooms opened up to a hallway, like in the middle of the school, in Baton Rouge, the classrooms all opened up outside. And I just felt like as a, as a seven year old feeling that difference, which just absolutely, you know, that that just kind of blew my mind. I think looking back, I wish I'd had a little bit more guidance in making sense of that it wasn't something I really talked about with my parents, and they didn't really talk about, like, why they decided to put us in a private school in Louisiana. And now I'm gonna, I gotta say, like, looking back, I mean, I realized, like, how racialized it probably is, as well. And, you know, now, as a parent, I think I might think about that decision differently. But as a kid, I was just going from a super diverse public school environment, to a really white private school environment, and didn't have like, any kind of language or any sort of framework to think about that. And so I think my advice to families would be to really, really dumb is certainly in an age appropriate way. But like, you know, kids notice things. And so like, talk about what they're seeing with them, you know, and also just for parents be really conscious about, you know, why is it that you're, you think this private school education is better? And you know, what, what is that about? You know, where are you getting your information about, you know, how good a school is. And then, I guess a couple other practical things, if you can avoid it don't move in the middle of a school year, because that's just hard. And then when I moved from Louisiana to Georgia, then I was 13, and going into eighth grade, and it was just a hard age to move at. But, again, all of it was really good. You know, I became a very adaptable person. And it was really good education for the kinds of questions that would, you know, continue to occupy me today.

Alissa Hessler: 12:25

I think it's interesting. I've noticed just through, you know, with COVID, in our area in Maine, a lot of people that are moving from cities into this area, and I've seen this in other rural communities as well, the parents immediately put their kids into private school, thinking that, you know, that is going to be the superior education kind of a comparable education to maybe what they had in the city. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that. I know, that isn't like a question really, that I prepared. But it's something interesting. Like, if you want to weave yourself into a fabric of a rural community, why is it important to really explore and even just support the local public school to make it thrive?

Unknown: 13:06

Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought this up. So um, firstly, you're absolutely right. And we've seen with a pandemic, a decline in public school enrollment, and an uptick in private school and homeschooling enrollments, I think there's probably a couple of things behind it. One, I think, in the early days of the pandemic, a lot of was just about control. And so you know, parents wanting to have a little bit more control about what was happening. And also many private schools had more resources to be able to have social distancing, and all those kinds of things. And so, you know, that felt like a safer option from like a health standpoint, that said, I think you're also like putting your finger on something really important, which is like about, like, what are these narratives around public education and private education? Why is private education often assumed to be the superior kind of schooling? You know, and I mean, what I'll say like, it varies, you know, I mean, first depends on how you define a good education, of course, and there are a whole bunch of private schools that are not doing so well. And so I do think that, you know, part of this is just about, like assumptions around, you know, what a good education is, and whether private or public schools offer that, you know, that phenomenon, I guess, that you've noticed, is real. And in terms of like, if you want to really integrate yourself into the community, I mean, taking advantage of public institutions, I think, is a really important way to do that. I mean, you know, public schools, that's kind of like the sort of the lifeblood of our democracy. I mean, they, you know, they accept all like, so as a reflection of the community as it actually is. And if you want to be a part of that community, like being a part of that public school system is, you know, probably the best way to do that, you know, just to emanate like you've also asked kind of a larger question about, like, how do you support public schools? I mean, showing up so attending them. It's certainly one of that one way I think being involved is another really important way. There could certainly be in many rural communities sort of an insider, outsider dynamic, you know where people from. And this is really interesting, like different places have different ways of describing newcomers. I do a lot of research and in Arkansas and there, it's often people from off

Alissa Hessler: 15:16

people from a way or interloper, there's so many different terms.

Unknown: 15:20

Exactly, exactly. So yeah, so people from outsiders, people from off people from away, you know, there can be, I think there could be this desire, sometimes for people who are new to community to come in and say, like, oh, you know, I see this happening, and this happening, and I want to be involved. And, you know, I can think of a better way for this to be done. And I think, really spending some time to understand a community as it is, and not coming in with a mindset of like, I'm going to fix this, but instead really trying to understand how are things here? How do things work? Why is that, I think that's really, really critical. And then, you know, if there is something, some sort of change you want to make, or some sort of reform effort that you want to be a part of, I would get behind people who are already doing that work on the ground. So rather than kind of coming in and spearheading things, honestly, if there's a change you want to make, there's probably someone else. And if it's a change that really needs to be made, there's probably other people they're doing that work already. So trying to get behind other people's good work, who have that kind of context who have those ties, who would understand some of the maybe domino effects that you might not, that's sort of how it encouraged people to be involved, the good work is happening. So it's up to you to kind of find it and, you know, figure out how what you can add and then do that.

Alissa Hessler: 16:42

That's such good advice. And I've heard that in so many different ways applied to, you know, school, building a business, in a rural community, just all of it just taking a moment, paying attention to who the key players are seeing what they're doing, if anybody aligns with what you want to try to help with, just get behind them and give them support. But don't say that, you know, the way because you might not

Unknown: 17:07

know, and I also think there's a little bit of, you know, there's this kind of urban centric sort of bias sometimes that I mean, you know, I mean, think about just the way rural communities are sometimes portrayed in the media, this idea of, you know, rural communities being provincial or backwards, like that stereotype is alive and well. And when you come in with that mindset of like, Oh, I know how things should be here, I can do things better, you're really buying into that. So number one, you're kind of giving additional airtime to that narrative. And you are also, you're, it's also not likely to work. So so there's that too.

Alissa Hessler: 17:45

I'd love to just kind of take it back to your experience teaching in rural Tennessee, because that was the catalyst for you to go and study rural education. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that experience. I know, you talked about how you realize how central Community was to rural schools, how those were really integrated together. But I'd love for you to talk to us a little bit more about

Unknown: 18:07

that. So I was thinking about your tenancy and vanleer doesn't even have a traffic light, it just has like one of those yellow blinky lights. So it's like, you know, that kind of small town. And it was in a district I think, was about like, maybe five or six elementary schools, but this was like the smallest and the rural list one. And it was always the one and I noticed to be true, historically, it was true. While I was there, too, it was always the one that when funds got tight, the district would talk about shutting it down, just like, you know, can't we bust those kids into one of the other other elementary schools? You know, do we really need a school there. So there's kind of that, like, that story happening. And then at the same time, like, again, like I saw in Vermont, when I was doing my student teaching, this school was so central to the community. And I talked about this a little bit in my book, but like, I think one of the moments that really crystallized This, for me was the first beans and green supper ever went to so the school would periodically hold fundraisers again, because funding was such that like, you know, it needed more funds in order to be able to operate the periodically hold these fundraisers. And one of them was this big green supper. And so this is my first time experiencing this supper. So like, the day of the supper, you know, it's happened on a Friday night. And so like all day, during school, the cafeteria, the women in the cafeteria, were boiling these huge bags of beans, beans, these huge vats of greens. And actually, the teachers had gone out to pick the greens. Some farmer had donated the turnip greens from his field, but we had to pick them. So like you know, the night or two before that we were out in the fields picking turnip greens, which would then be boiled like so all Friday. Oh, and people were dropping off like baked goods as donations. So I just remember like going home on Friday like the entire cafeteria smelled like turnip greens and beans. And, and there was just like these mountains of baked goods like on every sort of available counterspace in the cafeteria. So, go home from school and you know, get showered or whatever, come back. And it was like a good like, No 2025 minute drive back to school, you know, so like, I turn at the blinky light, I mean, usually be like, a couple more miles down before I actually get to school. But like, pretty soon, I noticed that like, on both sides of route, I can't remember the number like, you know, whatever route it was, you know, cars were lined up, and people were already started, like, pull over and park. And like, we're going to work quite a ways from the school at this point. So you know, I get closer, and I actually have to, like, pass the school and turn around and come back, because like, the entire playground in front of the school is completely covered with cars. And then like I said, cars are just lining there, and people are just pulling over getting out. And so you know, I pull over to and start walking in, you know, you know, some of my kid I'm seeing some my kids walking in as well. And you walk into the cafeteria, and me personally, just like not a place to be had, like, there's nowhere to sit, and people are just like, you know, sort of sitting everywhere, there's lines everywhere. And like the entire community is turned out for the supper. And it's not just parents and kids. But it's also like, you know, cousins and aunts and uncles, and you know, the the person that graduated from the school moved, you know, and moved away, but like, came back for the supper. And then like a little lady who like has nothing to do with the school, like no kids, no grandkids or anything in there. But like, you know, it's just where people go on the Friday night when there's been 16 Separate the school. And I mean, it's just like, people would turn out for that school, and they would, you know, turn out again, and again, and again, whether those like, you know, the fundraiser supper, or whether it was a school board meeting or the Christmas concert, or, you know, whatever it was, and hearing the district sort of say like, Oh, it's this is a school that we might shut down. And then seeing like how vital the school was, I was just like, always kind of struck by that sort of comparison, and that sort of juxtaposition. And as I continue to see that, like in my work today, where you know, I often am said now from people whose schools are about to be closed, because I do work on this topic now. And they're like, you know, what can we do? And then, you know, I start talking to them, and they're telling me about, just like how vital their school is and how vital that school community is, and how rich and how important it is. Yet the state or the school board or whoever is threatening, shutting it down, you know. And so, I continue to be struck by that sort of juxtaposition of like the vitality of rural schools, yet all the forces that seem to exist, that can conspire to closing a school.

Alissa Hessler: 22:41

Calling all small business owners, are you looking to expand your customer base beyond the reach of your local community, speak to our loyal audience of over 38,000 listeners by sponsoring an episode of the urban Exodus podcast. For more information, visit urban exodus.com/podcast. I know that you've studied schools that have been closed down one of the communities that I filmed for the Docu series that I'm working on their school shut down. And now they're busing kids out. And everybody was talking about what a loss that was, answer the kids who know have to basically commute an hour and a half each day to go to school. And they're going into a school that's like a completely different demographic than they are as well, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about rural school closures and how that not only affects the community, affects the kids, affects teachers affects the economic prosperity of a community.

Unknown: 23:43

So those are all really, really good questions. And that's, you know, what I am looking at in my current research. So currently, I'm doing some work looking at school closures in the Arkansas Delta. And so these are affecting predominately black communities in the Delta and looking at like, you know, what happens when a closure happens. And interestingly, I'm also looking at one community where it has the school hasn't been closed, but it's been in that sort of persistent threat. And we start to see effects of just the threat of closure, even before school shut down. So you know, what I'm finding and what we do know, based on kind of limited research is, first there's a number of forces that exist that do that can lead to school closure. And so some places have state policies that either incentivize or mandate closure, and then other places, it might just be a school board that decides like, you know, we can't afford to keep this, you know, this site open. And I do want to say that I went through want to put a big asterisk there. The research is also not great, after school is shut down, looking at how much money actually is saved and is money saved. So there's definitely an assumption that closing a school saves money, how much money it saves, or does it even save money, I think is a little bit more of an open question then I'll A lot of closure proponents might have you believe. But in terms of what happens, so, you know, it depends like on all of the particular factors that might lead to a closure, and then sort of the particular situation, what we know from the research on, you know, there's also been a lot of closures in urban spaces as well. And what we know from some of the larger research on school closures is that sometimes school closure happens in the name or like in the interest of academic achievement, or accountability, you know, schools that are labeled, quote, unquote, failing, as part of their sanction may end up getting closed. What we find, though, is that students are often not sent to a school that's performing any better. You know, I think there's also really interesting questions about how racialized this can be, as well. And I do need to say that I do think there's some, I am not someone who is against consolidation and closure in every single case, I think it really needs to be looked at much more like a case by case basis. And I do think that, particularly in segregated areas, there's oftentimes white families that will resist consolidation, because they don't want their kids to go to school with black children. And I've seen this a lot in the south. And so you know, getting some get racialized in all sorts of ways. One thing I've seen happen in the rural south is a school that serves predominately black children, it gets shut down. And then in terms of the school that the children are sent to, they might be sent some working with one community where the children are being sent to a school with demographics that more closely match their own. And so they're actually drive past the white school, and are getting dropped off at the black school. So how like race factors into all of this, too, is a really important consideration. And some research seems to suggest that it tends to be schools that are serving lower income children, and more students of color, they're the ones that disproportionately get get shut down. us a little bit about community effects, it can be really hard to disentangle like what is caused specifically by closure, because it's often communities that are already losing population that get threatened with closure. But I can tell you, I've heard so many stories about well, the school closed. So then the bank, where the school did its business, it shut down, and then the garage where the school buses got service, it had to shut down. And you know, now that we don't have teachers, you know, and what well, and then often, you know, parents will move to be closer to their children's new school, you know, there's not anything keeping them anymore. And then the grocery store gets closed, because there's not the customer base there. So it tends to have this kind of domino effect on a lot of the remaining businesses and institutions in the community. That's not an absolute, that doesn't always happen. But that is a pretty similar trajectory for what often happens.

Alissa Hessler: 27:47

And what happens to the teachers, I have been to rural communities, I actually just filmed a rural community off the coast of Maine, that their school, like the only jobs on that island community are at the school, and they're in the fisheries, and kind of tangents of fisheries. What happens to teachers when schools close for that?

Unknown: 28:07

Yeah, so that's a really important point. So I mean, oftentimes, in a rural district, the school is the largest employer, so we shut the school down, you're having losing the largest employer in in in that place. So oftentimes, what happens is, you know, sometimes teachers can be offered jobs at the district, you know, the district or the school where the children are now going, you know, sometimes, though, there are more teachers, and there's actually positions for so there might be, you know, offers of early retirement and things like that positions might be cuts. And then there's also sort of two goals here, that might be intention. So if you're trying, if a district is actually trying to reduce money, they really need to reduce the number of paid salary paid staff they have. So that means there's going to be job loss. But if you want to keep people employed, then you're actually not saving any money, which is often the justification for the closure to begin with. But yeah, you're right. So sometimes teachers can find jobs, sometimes they can't. And, and there can be sometimes dynamics within the new building around kind of new teachers and old teachers that administration, like really should pay attention to, if they're going to try to make this as smooth process as possible. school closure can have all of these kinds of ripple effects, and certainly on the teaching force, as well. And again, you know, I mean, you can honestly, you can see the racism in the system, manifesting oftentimes in these closures in terms of who they happen to who loses their jobs, and those kinds of effects.

Alissa Hessler: 29:35

You have written this book, Why Rural Schools Matter. And now you're moving on to like kind of another area of focus. I'd love for you to talk about your experience researching these two communities, delight and Earl and share your process of writing that book, and kind of studying these communities. Did you feel welcome there by the end like what was that experience? Like?

Unknown: 29:57

Yes, I felt welcomed. It was an amazing experience. It may feel still so grateful to residents and families and teachers and principals and everyone that really allowed me to be a part of the community, both of these communities, I started doing work in the lights first. And actually the wave and got into Arkansas to begin with was there's an organization called the Rural School and Community Trust. So I was in graduate school, and I was looking to try to figure out like, Okay, where can I, you know, I want to study rural schools, where can I do this research, I didn't want to go back to Tennessee, just because it felt like a little bit too close to home. And so I wanted to make contact with someone there who was like, Oh, you talk to this person, and you talk to this person. So someone finally said, you need to call Dorothy. And so I called Dorothy, and she's a black woman organizing in Arkansas. And she was basically like, well come on down here, you know, I'll show you, I'll show you what things are like, come on, down. So I like scraped together my money. And it was like, Okay, I am gonna go fly down to Arkansas, and meet Dorothy. And like, we'll see how this goes. And I met Dorothy and I continue to make good friends with Dorothy today. And I'm so grateful for her. But basically, it's been a few days just following her around, she does her work. And she organizes rural communities that are oftentimes facing closure, this organization that she just never retired, but that she worked with, and that I continue to work with today, rural community, Lyons, kind of an interesting organization in that it works across the state in Arkansas, and our Arkansas, like many, like our country is deeply segregated. And so in the Delta, those are predominant black communities in the kind of Ozarks area, those are predominately white communities. So Dorothy, united, spent a couple days together, and I just got to kind of follow her as she did her work. And also see how we, as you know, she's a black woman, I'm a white woman. And we're both entering communities that are either almost predominantly black, or almost predominately whites, and seeing the different kinds of receptions we get, what kinds of questions do people ask us? Who do they turn to? Who do they assume is in in charge, I just I have learned so much from those couple of days with Dorothy. And then also as a part of that she was the one who introduced me to folks in D light, and then an earl. And so that's how I kind of develop those relationships. And, you know, like I said, I continue to work with rural community alliance today. And so for the next few years, I get to, you know, I was sort of down in either D letter URL every couple of months talking to people. And, you know, when you're doing work in a rural community, people know, the minute you're in town, just because you know, it's some girl you're pulling it.

Alissa Hessler: 32:37

And I just said,

Unknown: 32:38

so often would have experienced here, I'd call someone up, and they're like, you know, I'm like, you know, well, I'm here and delight, and you're like, I know. And, you know, and I found that in both communities, people were really, really willing to talk. And they wanted to tell a different story about their schools and about their community. These are both for different reasons, and some same reasons. They're both communities being threatened with closure of their schools, and they wanted to sort of share, like, why their schools were important, and why this mattered to them. And, you know, and people had some different feelings about closure and everything, but they also really, they wanted to talk about, like, why the state needs to pay more attention to rural schools, and they really wanted to talk about that. So that was a conversation, you know, I had over and over again, you know, became really close to Kathy Cole, who was a principal of delight at that time. So whenever I went on a deal, I would sleep on her floor, you know, and I just got to spend a bunch of time with adults and kids there. And it was great. And an Earl, you know, so d light was an interesting district, it's it is now consolidated, but at that time, it pulled together a number of small communities, some of them predominately black, some of them predominantly white. And so it actually created a relatively integrated school district. And then in IRL, it's the predominant Black School District, the community itself is a little bit more racially mixed, but it's super segregated. And most white families send their kids to either a white or school district or the white private school that's nearby. And so in IRL, you know, I was a white woman working almost entirely with black students, families, faculty, staff. And I, again, just felt so profoundly grateful that people were willing to trust me with their stories. And again, I think it was an interest of trying to get a different narrative out there about, particularly schools serving black communities in the world Delta. I think the state, as many states do often write off those schools, kind of put the label of failing on them. And I just saw something really, really different while I was there,

Alissa Hessler: 34:39

I'd love to talk a little bit because I know that this is so correlated to that the No Child Left Behind Act and how that has really affected rural schools since its inception, and it's maybe some of the reason for these closures.

Unknown: 34:53

Yeah, so No Child Left Behind was passed with bipartisan support in 2001 Or maybe early 2002. But kind of on the heels of 911. And what it did was it said that states need to have educational standards. And it needs to I mean, at the core of the legislation is really this idea of accountability. And so we need to be testing our students in reading and math. And we need to be looking at whether or not they're making progress. And so schools that it was kind of left up to the states in terms of like, what sort of progress standards they mapped out. But it was defined in terms of accountability and test scores. And states were also required to put in place a series of sanctions for schools and districts that were not making what was called adequate yearly progress. And after these sort of sanctions started with things like offering additional tutoring and things like that, they kind of ramped up pretty quickly. And then there was sort of a series of sanctions that like, you know, if you been failing to make adequate yearly progress for a number of years, there was a series of sanctions that got increasingly strict or severe, I guess, one of those was closure. And so this did lead to many schools being deemed failing, and facing these kinds of increasing levels of sanctions, and closure being a part of that as well. And there was also like, you know, this was not the only piece of legislation that really thought about accountability in this sort of way, and thought about sanction and punishment in this kind of way. There's a whole slew of laws and policies that lead to these kinds of mass closures of schools. But really, what we did see is a lot of school closures, often tied to accountability, defined in this really narrow way around test scores. And so that was a factor in many closures across the country.

Alissa Hessler: 36:58

I just wanted to give an enormous thank you to all of you who have made contributions to offset the production costs of this podcast, it means so much to me that you find enough meaning and value to pledge your support to keep this going. If you haven't had a chance to contribute, we've made it really easy for you. Just click the support button on the top of urban Exodus website, you can also get access to bonus episodes, rapid fire interviews, and our new mini podcast, ditch the city by signing up for our apple podcast premium. Or you can become a member of the urban Exodus online community where you can access hundreds of photos, stories, interviews, tutorials, videos, and more. Find out more by visiting the membership page on urban exodus.com. There is so much inequality in public schools, there's such stark differences between public schools in the same state. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about funding of schools. And if you could wave a magic wand with all of the knowledge that you've gained over the years through your research, what would you do? What changes would you make to our public school system to make sure that there's equality and to like, real across the board accountability?

Unknown: 38:16

Funding? I mean, so first thing I'll say about funding is like it's super messy. 50 states do things totally differently. So we I mean, really, like there's sort of not a US approach to school funding. I mean, it's like 50 different approaches. So I guess like, that's the first thing to know, if you look at across the country as a whole school funding comes from three different sources from the federal government, the state government and local governments, again, across the country, about like 9% comes from the federal government. And then the remaining 91% is sort of split between state and local sources. The local sources predominantly rely on property taxes, again, it varies a little bit from state to state, but it's predominantly property taxes. What this means then is that places that have a lot of property wealth, and I don't mean wealth, in terms of like, I mean, wealth in terms of like, sort of, like tax assessment, wealth, okay, so does someone you know, someone looking at like, the wealth of a piece of property, I'm gonna kind of value it had the monetary value it has to how much they say it's worth. So what this means is that property wealthy places can generate a lot of resources locally to put towards their schools, while places that are property poor, or don't have like high real estate values, they can't generate those sources locally. This is what drives so much of the disparities that we see within states between school districts. So basically, you know, a place like Cape Elizabeth with really high property values, they can generate all sorts of resources locally to put towards their schools. Whereas, you know, a place like in rural western Maine that doesn't have the same kind of property values, they just can't do it. I mean, they can tax themselves at a super high rate, you know, even a higher rate than the folks in Cape Elizabeth, then we often see this and so the burden is much higher on those families. but they just can't generate the revenue for it to be able to put towards their schools. Let me look at the state portion. Some states try to kind of make up for those differences in local funding, other states don't, some states do and try to even that out in all sorts of ways. And again, some states do that better than others. But I don't know if there's any state out there that has really been able to completely even out the differences between high wealth and low wealth districts. And what we know is that many rural areas have low property values, and so they can't generate the resources. And so that leads to this, you know, incredible inequity, this inequity. I mean, I think what's so interesting and important here is like, it's not like this is hidden. I mean, like we like it's, it's baked into the architecture of public education. So when people are surprised by the kinds of like unequal test score results between districts, I mean, like, there's nothing to be, I mean, it's tragic, absolutely tragic. But it's nothing surprising about it. I mean, we're giving our districts much different resources to be able to use to put towards their education. And I mean, like in those resources, I mean, that's everything from like school facilities to teacher salaries to principle salaries to can you buy paper, you know, where I taught in Tennessee, we would run out of paper every April. And so I mean, what can you do when you don't have paper? So yeah, so like, lead equities, we see, again, are not surprising. If I could do one thing, I think it would be actually make for equitable funding. And and I don't mean, equal funding, so equal funding would be like giving every you know, making pure pupil expenditures, absolutely, you know, equal across the board, I would actually want like equitable funding, where the schools and communities and students that actually need more resources because of the historic wrongs that you know, have existed in the past, or because of all the other kind of factors that lead to economic and social inequality, they actually get more funding. And, you know, I'm not saying that funds are everything. But funds are really important. And so like, I think that would be if I can make one change, I think that's what I'd be interested in doing. I wonder,

Alissa Hessler: 42:08

your advice. There are a lot of people in rural communities that listen to this podcast, there are also a lot of people in cities that are, you know, wanting to move to a rural community. What can people do, if it looks like their school and the community that they live in? Or that they want to live in? might face closure? What can they do to try to fight that closure?

Unknown: 42:33

So first thing I'd say is like, organize, and again, like for newcomers to the area, why would suggest getting behind good efforts that are already happening on the ground among locals, but organize, and what I often hear from communities is sort of like, we didn't think this was really going to happen. So I can tell you, it's it's going to happen. And so like, if there's talk about closure, you need to pay attention and really start to get organized. It depends, like sort of what the remedy would be here, like what the, like the tactics, I would counsel would really differ from place to place, depending on what the actual situation is, you need to look at who's going to be making the decision whether or not to close your school, if it's the school board, you need to have allies on that school board. So get out and vote, you know, make sure that you've got folks on that school board that want to keep your school open. And then again, you know, I've sort of referenced this before, but like, I think you really got to be very cognizant of how closure becomes classed and racialized. And so what I'm concerned about is when closure is disproportionately affecting families that are high poverty, low income, or communities of color, because we know they often face sort of an undue burden when it comes to closure. You know, I'm always amazed by how often I hear from policymakers that are like, Yeah, we want to revitalize rural communities, we're all about making sure that rural communities are livable, and economically safe and sound, that at the same time, they're closing rural schools. And those two goals then are at odds with one another. And so, you know, I'd encourage folks to really be thinking about like, good education policy is good economic policy. And so making sure that you're making decisions that really think about the well being of the community and that kind of holistic way.

Alissa Hessler: 44:18

So you wrote the book, Why rural schools matter in 2014. And obviously, a lot has changed in the country since then. It feels like we've become a lot more divided and a lot more isolated. And then we had COVID, which also pulled back the curtain on a lot of systemic things that were wrong that people didn't want to look at or fix. So if you wrote this book today, what would you want to add to the conversation?

Unknown: 44:50

I would be interested in when I was in daylight and IRL. I really didn't look that much at the politics of I looked at a lot of local politics and You know, things like school board meetings and those kind of local dynamics. I didn't pay as much attention to state politics and national politics, and how that informed policymaking and everything. I think I'd be more interested in looking at some of those connections. Now. So I think I think yeah, I think that's something I would certainly add, I think you're right that with COVID, I think that's going to change the school closure landscape in some interesting ways. I think on the one hand, people realize, or at least the beginning of the pandemic has moment of like, you know, oh, shit, schools are really important. Like, you know, I can't be, I don't want to be teaching my kids at home, and schools do all of this stuff. That's not just about education about, you know, that kind of class time, I hope that we keep that sort of realization at the forefront when we make policies through going forward. I worry that that woman has passed a little bit, though. And what we have seen is, you know, as we already talked a little bit about, there's been a drop in public school enrollments, and they really haven't rebounded to where they were pre COVID levels. Also, now with this current, is it a recession is another recession, whatever it is, the economic picture is not good. And we know that these kinds of recessions often hit rural communities harder. So I'm concerned that both enrollment and funding wise schools might be in a particularly rural districts and rural schools might be particularly threatened in these coming years. And so I think we've really got to be paying attention to that, and making education policy decisions that, again, really think holistically about the health and well being of students and communities.

Alissa Hessler: 46:36

How can we find common ground to improve our rural schools, because you know, media's kind of showing like school boards torn apart through some of these kind of politicized, or we created these politicized things to separate us from one another that goes in with mask mandates, and critical race theory, and all of these things that are, like, almost feel like there are these intentional wedges to just be something that we can argue about. So we aren't focused on the real issues, I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that.

Unknown: 47:09

I think sharing space honestly, is like one of the best ways to reduce that kind of polarization. Like when you actually know your neighbors and talk to them on a daily sort of basis. You understand them as humans in a way that you don't when you just think about them as sort of like a, you know, you know, oh, they're a Republican, or they're a Democrat or so, you know, in that way, I think schools are really important places, you know, for so many reasons, but one of them is because it like that's a place where you see people in all their humaneness, right, you know, you understand when the kid shows up, and I don't know how to bad dream, or I mean, like, you see sort of like people in like, in the real selves in a way that you don't, when you're just sort of thinking about people in terms of labels, I think sharing space and ensuring we have these kind of common spaces where we do come together and really get to know one another. I think it's super important at this particular moment. I think sharing stories is also really important. So rather than just like a how do you feel about this issue? But like, why, you know, what informs that I'm asking questions, listening, like that, those are all skills that we seem to have sort of forgotten. Recently, you know, I'm always struck by, you know, I live in a town, a rural town. That is, I would say, maybe pretty evenly split politically. And I guess I'm always struck by like, how I usually forget that on a day to day basis, because on a day to day basis, you know, I'm just interacting with neighbors. And you know, the things that we talk about are much more of like our mundane, everyday kind of concerns, or not even mundane, but like, you know, big sort of important things, and not like who did you vote for. And so I think more of that kind of interaction, which I think can be particularly, I think, can happen sometimes in rural communities in a way that it's harder and more suburban and urban spaces. And so I think, you know, getting to know one another, and having those conversations is really important. And that's like, that's what changes like hearts and minds and votes, ultimately. And so, you know, I might not agree with my neighbors on everything. But, you know, we understand one another better. And I do think about their perspectives, you know, when I go into the polling place, and so yeah, sharing those, saving those commoners protecting those shared spaces, I think is really critical right now. I'd love

Alissa Hessler: 49:38

for you, as we kind of wrap up this conversation. I'd love for you to talk about what you're researching right now. And ways people can find the work that you've researched or even reach out to you if they have specific questions about their rural school.

Unknown: 49:55

I'm working on two projects right now. One is I'm working on a book that is is looking at rural college access. So I followed nine rural, first generation college students as they entered and experienced and then graduated from a small liberal arts college. So I'm working on that and thinking about kind of what we know is that rural students don't go to college, particularly four year particularly selectively kind of schools at the same rates as their non rural counterparts. So it's interested in like, you know, why is that? And then those that do go? What are their experiences, like, particularly these kind of elite environments? And then what does it mean? Like, what happens afterwards? Where did they go? What are their post graduation plans? So I'm working on that now. And hopefully, that will be published within the next couple of years. And that's super like I like I really get to know these nine students well, and so it's been like such a privilege to be able to kind of follow their lives and share their college experiences with them. Particularly as like a college faculty member, I got like a really different perspective on like, what it's like to be a college student, which was wonderful. I mean, scary. It's made me like, really glad that my own college years were over. But, but it was like such a privilege to be able to spend time with them. And then like I said, I'm also working on this project on school closures. So following three communities, again, back in Arkansas. So these are three rural black communities in the Delta. And two of them lost their schools. And I'm looking at like, what are the effects of that? And one of them still has a school, but like, closure has always been kind of a threat. And I'm interested in like, what are the effects of closure? But also, how do communities organize in response? What do they do? And so I've been able to see a lot of really good organizing efforts. So that's kind of what I'm working on. Now. Again, a lot on like rural college access, and like the effects of school closure. And yeah, I always love to hear from folks. And so, you know, I heard you wanted to reach out, probably the best way is email, which is just my first first initial last name at Bates, state edu. And I've been really kind of amazed by how many folks I hear from that are in this position of losing their school, and, you know, understanding a little bit about like, you know, what are the state sort of policies that lead to that? And, you know, are there effective ways of organizing to be able to respond,

Alissa Hessler: 52:14

you just got to the root of so many things that I've seen in rural communities as far as inequities and disparities, and like, basically, the rural school system, and how that kind of needs to be reinvented and rethought to make sure that it's equal for people. And that rural is really a microcosm of our larger society as a whole. So if you can kind of focus on rural, that's a way that you can kind of make those changes. So I really appreciate the work that you're doing. And I really appreciate you speaking with us today.

Unknown: 52:47

Absolutely. And I think I think that point about like, these aren't rural specific problems, these are indicative of like much larger issues with our entire public education system, and really like not necessarily like, it's more like how we fund our system and the kind of resources we put there. And I think that if we look closely to rural schools, they are really showing us signs of these larger systems that are broken and really need to be fixed. So yeah, but I really appreciated the conversation you asked great questions. Thank you.

Alissa Hessler: 53:21

Thank you, Maura for joining us on the show. Some key takeaways from the episode. First, rural schools have tremendous value. They are the heartbeat of a town. Beyond the education they provide. They are an integral part of the local economy and serve as a gathering place for the greater community. Consolidating a school district impacts not only students but the community as a whole. Once a school is closed, it is extremely difficult to get it reopened. closures have lasting ripple effects. inequity at rural schools is driven by funding. In most states a bulk of public schools funding comes through local property taxes. This is an outdated and innately discriminatory way of funding schools. Because areas with higher property values receive more money, and areas with lower property values receive less. We need to rethink the way we fund schools to provide equal quality public education to all students. And lastly, paraphrasing Mars words, public schools are vital to our democracy. They're one of the few places left that accepts everyone and reflect the community as it actually is. And they are worth saving. Hi, friends, thank you so much for tuning into another episode of the urban Exodus podcast. This is a listener supported program that is only made possible through your continued support. And if you haven't already, we would really love it if you'd leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or whatever service you listen on. And please recommend urban access to your friends. An enormous thank you to my incredible producer Simone Leon, and my amazing editor Johnny Sol, and my music man, Benjamin Thoreau, and thanks to all of you for listening, I'm Alissa Hessler, and this is the urban Exodus